Video Games, Screen Time, and Why Kids Struggle to Turn Tech Off

In this episode of Acorns to Oaks, Kristine and Sarah discuss video games, screen time, internet gaming disorder, and why technology can be so difficult for children to stop using.

They explore how video games use powerful reinforcement systems, why children may struggle when screens are turned off, and how parents can think about balance without shame. The conversation also covers bedtime routines, online gaming safety, parental controls, social media, and the importance of real-world connection.

This episode is not about demonizing technology. It is about helping families understand why screens are so compelling and how to create safer, healthier, more intentional routines.

Acorns to Oaks is presented by Nurture & Nature ABA, providing compassionate ABA therapy and parent support in Valley Village and the San Fernando Valley.

Learn more or schedule a consultation: nurtureandnatureaba.com

Follow Nurture & Nature on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for individualized clinical care.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to Acorns to Oaks. I'm Sarah Moreau and I'm Christine Dixon. And today we are in the beautiful San Bernardino Mountains. And uh game is on.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yes, that's what we're talking about today. That's right. Uh landmark lawsuit came out just a couple months ago about video gaming addiction, or as the DSM calls it, internet gaming disorder. It's listed in section three of the DSM 5, uh condition for further study, not yet a fully recognized disorder. But we're all getting sort of addicted to uh video games and uh tech. And uh, you know, I think that's one thing that ABA can really look at because the schedules of reinforcement um are which come out of behaviorism, uh, really show us what these schedules of reinforcement and the power of combining them together can do. B.F. Skinner, uh, he was really foundational in studying these schedules of reinforcement. But yes, what does the medical field uh feel about video gaming addiction?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Absolutely, is a lot of interest in video game addiction. Um, we have uh quite a bit of uh advice coming out, especially for young children. Uh no screen time under the age of two, less than an hour, um, recommended throughout childhood. Um, and it's getting harder and harder, I think, to avoid um screen time and video games. And it's so much fun. And we see often with the kids that we work with the behaviors that occur, right? When we have removed access to these highly reinforcing activities.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Or when it powers down. I've definitely seen many an outburst when uh video games power down midway. Absolutely. You know, the adult equivalent would be like watching the Super Bowl midway and the power goes out. Yeah, right. So it's like, oh my god! You know, and I I always like to put it in adult perspective when even when we're talking about um children, because uh I think it's really important for clinicians to recognize the perspective. Absolutely. You know, it's like, well, you got upset when I took the toy away. It's like, well, if I took your phone out of your hands and threw it out the window, would that make you upset? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's good to look at that. But video games are powerful. And once a variable like this is so embedded in an ecosystem, yeah, I don't think there's any getting rid of it.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

I don't think so either. I don't think so either. I think that we do have to make really intentional decisions about how we use it in our life. And this goes for me as well. I mean, I I wake up in the morning and the first thing I do is check on my aura ring, see how I slept, which I know is ridiculous. Like, can't I just feel that in my body? Why do I need this device to tell me that I slept well or not? But I really like that input, that data, looking at that screen. Um, and then I go to the New York Times to whirl and I play that game uh often before I even get out of bed, right? So uh I think that it's very pervasive in our lives. And and um maybe even plugging the phone in away from my bed would probably be a wise environmental arrangement for me to cut back on how often I'm looking at my phone. It's about balance, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

You know, these are leisure skills, but the addiction part of it, which is what we're looking at, um, it really comes from these compound schedules of reinforcement that BF Skinner studied, right? Uh, there's a combination of a variable interval schedule, meaning that you will be reinforced at a varying amount of time and a uh variable ratio schedule, which means you will be reinforced for a correct amount of responses. And then there is the combination of those two schedules with an indiscriminable contingency. Well, what does that mean? That means surprise reinforcement, uh peppered throughout the game. And it's those three schedules in combination uh with the token system. You're collecting things in these games, you're given different tokens, you're earning different potions, you're getting different medals. Um, it's a combination of all that that really makes these video games uh very reinforcing and highly addicting. Absolutely. You know, we used to call the variable ratio uh the jackpot ratio.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yes. Yes. And I was reminded of um gambling is one of the earliest forms that we've seen of this, you know, as um a society. Uh and there's interesting research on people with Parkinson's disease who take a drug called carvadopa, levodopa, which increases the amount of dopamine that they have in their brain because people with Parkinson's disease are suffering from movement disorders uh because they don't make enough dopamine uh in their brains. So uh when these people are taking this drug, that hit from that very exciting surprise reinforcer is so powerful that they are um warned that compulsive gambling is a side effect of that medication. So it's really interesting how how these games can play into our physiology, um, in addition to what, of course, Skinner found with these schedules of reinforcement and how that changes the way that we engage in activities and how that changes our behavior throughout any given day and in any uh activity.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Um so when we say the variable ratio is like this gambling reinforcer, it's very addictive, and it what it is is like uh the slot, like the slot machines, right? So every time you pull the lever, you don't know if you're going to hit. And um, you will pull the level lever so many times, and then you will hit and it's a surprise. Um but that ratio produces the highest, steadiest rate of responding in our science. Yes. The variable interval is also producing a high steady state of responding. Um, and what that means is that us as a species, when we get into the contingencies of all this, it is highly thrilling and fun. I mean, I play Monopoly Go. Um, and I even know the schedules of reinforcement, but it's still that dopamine hit. Yeah. Um so it's very interesting about uh Parkinson's and uh lack of dopamine and then getting dopamine. Um for little kids, a lot of, and I have to take it back to B.F. Skinner. He thought in the future there'd be a lot of learning games, and there are, yeah, but they still have these highly addictive schedules of reinforcement. Um, they also have a variable of consumption, of buying. A lot of these games really have you collecting money and then for working or for achieving um in the game, and then you're buying, you're buying new weapons, you're buying well, real estate and monopoly. Um, but that can also uh get you a dopamine hit. But once the dopamine hit physiologically is done, you're left with the lull. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, yes, yeah. And and it is curious, and I think there there's a lot of interest in how um these games and access to this this type of stimuli is affecting the developing brain in children.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Yeah. Um and it's concerning, really.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

It is concerning.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, because when when the iPad powers down, sometimes we can see an outburst or a behavior. Yeah. In adults and children. Uh when your phone powers down and you're in mid-call, you can sometimes see an outburst of or behavior. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

And and even beyond behavior, just the avoidance of social interaction, the avoidance of physical activity, uh, things that were maybe previously a more reinforcing activity are just shadowed by these um video games and and screen activities. So we are also kind of losing a little bit of the intrinsic value of just interacting with a friend or going outside. And what a beautiful outside it is here in the San Bernardino Mountains.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

The national forest. So lucky to be here. Yeah. Um, the video games, this is reality, uh, but the video games a lot of times put you in a virtual space and an imaginative space, and kids love that. I love that. It's really fun. I think you, you know, I'm Gen X, so I've had the pleasure of being alive and seeing the, you know, video games evolve, uh, you know, from virtual the Oculus going all the way back to the Pong, you know, and and I was born before uh there was Pong, believe it or not. Um but I would I think, you know, being born prior to technology being everywhere instead of just an Apple computer down in my basement, you know. Um it's hard to know if the developing brain is able to really differentiate the virtual versus reality. I think that would have been very difficult for the six-year-old Christine version of me. Um, because be like, you know, like I'm a princess in this video game, or you know, or you know, and then rectifying like I have to go to school and I have to do these chores and you know, life, you know, the two, yeah, the contrast, the behavioral contrast between the two settings, yeah, would be, I think, somewhat difficult for me.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, yeah. And the virtual reality is really remarkable. There was so remarkable. A game I played, it was like a bow and arrow game or something. It was really um a very simple game, but it's such an immersive world that these, you know, game builders make, um, that it is just very uh motivating, I think, for young people, and really for anyone. Um, but it's it's about finding that balance, I think that's really important. Um, there is also the social component. A lot of these kids do play online with other children. Um, and this might be a way that they are interacting with one another now that wasn't available when you and I were growing up in the 70s and 80s, um, and 90s, but mostly 80s.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Uh, the virtual worlds are artistry. They are so beautiful. I mean, the immersion into some of these worlds is really remarkable. I'm saying, I'm not saying it doesn't have value. I think it has great value, and I do think it enhances imagination in um developing brains. Um, uh the artistry behind some of these video games is so absolutely captivating and fun. And absolutely fun, the things you get to do in them. A very freeing, very empowering for kids to take actions and um experience that. Uh, so there's definitely pros and cons for sure on both sides of the argument. I think uh not limiting the time played can lead to serious problems. Absolutely. And I think that's what the DSM is looking for in the in the diagnosis of um, I think it's video game addiction. Because we've heard stories now of people uh entering contingencies where they'll wear diapers all day to play video games. Yeah. Um, and there there were there's been some neglect of of children by uh parents um playing video games. And that really makes you stop and think.

SPEAKER_00 12:39

Yeah, yeah. I I think uh anytime that you're wearing a diaper by choice should make you reflect upon your choices and how you ended up here. But beyond that, just the health implications of uh being sedentary, being in front of a screen, uh maybe not interacting with others as much as you would without the video game. I think these are indicators that maybe we're making an unhealthy choice. And how to set up that um that time limit for a young person in your home or for yourself, I think is a really important thing to consider.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah, uh, you know, there's also uh there's so much research. Of course, I think close to 15 years now, they I think it was Harvard did the study about excessive video game usage, um, actually changing some components in the brain. I think it was the dendrites had less um uh, which is part of a brain cell, uh, had had less fingers, so to say, branches. Um, and uh we call it social media, but you're really solo in the the physical act. Yes. And as behaviorists, we're about observable and measurable behaviors. So, you know, you're solo when you're engaging in that.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

And and social media also, uh, you know, I'm so grateful it wasn't around when I was a teenage girl. I think the harm that it's done to teenagers looking for their identity and comparing themselves to these best pictures posted by others. Um it's it's not good for self-esteem esteem, and it's not good just for um general mental health. And I think that's been shown.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

And absolutely. And I remember, you know, when when I was young, they were even showing studies about fashion magazines, yeah. Comparing yourselves to models like Kate Moss, you know, um and uh disorders and yeah, evil, you know, yeah, evil and land well, the models of the the the supermodels.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

The supermodels of the 90s, yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, and they were saying that it wasn't really good to compare yourself because these were photoshopped. Yeah. Um, yeah. And now everyone can be photoshopped, which goes to say, like, you know, is it reality when we're engaging in social media, or is it just painted, filtered?

SPEAKER_00 15:08

You know, and they really should have age limits, I think is what we have learned.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

And responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah. On the makers, you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Absolutely. Yeah. They're profiting off of these platforms, which are incredibly successful, but at what cost? You know, if we're having um young people that are less healthy, young people that are less engaged, young people that are less social in a general sense out in the world, I think that that's a sign that we need to really reconsider how um access is granted for these platforms. Um, I believe some countries have put on age limits. Like you have to be 16 before you can even have one of these uh profiles. Um, I don't know where we are on that in the United States. Have you heard anything about that?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, I think this lawsuit, uh, I think it went a about uh it was a minor in social media and it and it came down and uh in the favor of the family. Um I I do think that's going to set a precedent for laws that are gonna come into play. And also, you know, when you look at community, it's like, yes, there is community, you're connecting, you can, you know, you can play a game with your cousin from Idaho, you know, like so there's a lot of uh pros. Um, but we've also seen in like roadblocks, we've seen predators enter these communities with children and uh, you know, do despicable things. Um Jenna Bush, one of the clinicians that works with us at Nurture Nature, she did an excellent presentation. And it really got us thinking about stranger danger, you know, and how we teach that as behavior analysts to children and how parents teach it. Um, but it's very different if a stranger approaches you in a store or a stranger comes to your door and knocks, right? There's a protocol. It's like, go get mom. If you don't know who it is, don't open the door, right? These were things we were taught. If a stranger approaches you um and you don't know them, you know, just go and go and find mom or find a parent or tell someone. Uh, with video games and strangers in this community, the these online gaming communities, um, there does not seem to be a filter. And there is, I believe, like a huge settlement going out for roadblocks. And there should be, because there does need to be safeguards for children. Yeah. And in regard.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

When technology grows as quickly as it has, um, we're often behind in terms of the regulation and what we need to do to protect ourselves. I know there's been a lot of discussion about AI and uh people forming relationships with a bot. And then, you know, there was a boy that committed suicide. I think there's been a lot of really terrible outcomes. Um and because things are growing so quickly, I think that uh we have a responsibility when we're working with children to know what they're using and to make sure that we are uh monitoring and keeping them safe.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah. So I think as clinicians working with ages two to 65, um, I think we recommend limiting screen time for sure. Having parental uh controls, um, having parental supervision and checking in on what's going on and what are you playing? Yeah, having control over the device. Absolutely. You know, if if it's becoming excessive, locking down the Wi-Fi, not playing games during the sleep routine or when you're trying to shut down the day with your schedule. Yeah. They say that the blue light has an effect.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

It does, yeah. So if you're looking at your phone at night, or if a child is looking at a video game at night, uh, that's sending a message to the brain that says, hey, it's still daytime. Let's let's not uh start that circadian rhythm to power down, get some rest. Uh so I think it's really important that we put those things away at least an hour before bed, and probably more when you're dealing with a young child. I think um it's great to have an evening routine that maybe doesn't use the tech. Let's read a book before bed. Let's uh have some interaction together that is not looking at a screen. Um, sleep will be better for everyone in the house.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

And it's more meaningful. Yeah. I mean, when you look back at your life in terms of memories, do you really remember levels in a video game or do you remember being with people and doing things and going on hikes and that lived experience and being in the forest and seeing real beauty versus like virtual um engagement? Yeah, yeah. I think when you look back, I don't remember playing, like I don't remember saying, Oh, I beat Donkey Kong finally and I was here at this moment. But I remember like my high school graduation and you know, playing with my brother when I was younger, and like those memories seem way more salient than anything I've done virtually. Absolutely what about for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Like 100%. I would much rather spend some time outside than be on my phone. And, you know, sometimes the energy it takes to put down your phone and go outside, it seems like a lot. But once you do it, you feel so much better. Sleep better, interact with others better, handle stress better, just live a healthier existence for that day.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Um and those are the cons. But then on the other side, to play devil's advocate, we are in the information age. It is outstanding. Anything you want to know, you can look up. You might not get the right answer, especially if you're using some of the AI bots. It's like, you're so funny, AI. They just made that up. That's not true. And then they come back and be like, You're right. I was incorrect. It's like, oh my God. How much of the world is getting this incorrect information is facts?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Yeah, a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

So if you look at like your formative years and you're getting incorrect information, the world is a little skewed. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah. Yeah. I I think uh my takeaway from our discussion today is just be in the real world for a little bit, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Trying to make real friends. Yeah. That come over to your house and you know, give you hugs. Yeah, and sit next to your beautiful window and chat with you over coffee. Yeah.

unknown 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

So limiting screen time, limiting um the time you do it, so not at bedtime. Yes. Uh one hour a day. Any other recommendations you think we should have? Making sure it's age appropriate content.

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Yeah. And I think having safety in place, especially for your children and and young teens who are being. approached online. I think if your child is on the internet, it's very likely that they have been approached by someone that you probably would prefer they not be. So it's just really helpful, I think, to know what is being used and and put some safety guards in place. Turn off that Wi-Fi if you need to.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

So play with your children. Yeah. If you are going to play, make it a family thing. Play with them. Monitor. See who's reaching out. Yeah. Yeah. Really have a good idea on what information is coming in. Um as crucial as we move forward and and we evolve. It it is there are pros and cons on both sides. Absolutely. And the and the pros are strong. There's a lot of great information and a lot of fun things.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

A lot of fun video games. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Truly.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Yeah. But limiting time, balance and safety.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Balance and safety all the way.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Well thanks so much for talking about video game addiction today. Of course. So fun to talk to you anytime. And they'll see how it emerges in the laws that we create and how the field of psychology, if they're going to make it a formal diagnosis or not. It's very interesting time. Yeah, it is interesting. Thank you so much for being with us here today. Like, comment and subscribe and send us your thoughts. You know, we don't have all the right answers all the time, but I'm very interested in opinions of others and and how everyone is feeling about this, especially parents raising young children. And I think it's crucial time. So uh yeah.

unknown 23:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Reach out. That's what this has all been about, right? We really want to make connections with people out there as well as right here