Not Your Average Ritual

Ben Goldman joins us for Episode 5 of Not Your Average Gratitude Podcast. Ben is a therapist in private practice specializing in working with men and men's issues. Ben focuses on sex, intimacy, relationship conflict, and breakups. Ben's work centers around the emotional and physiological complexities of relationships with great clarity and intention. He is also currently researching and writing a book that reframes breakups through the lens of attachment grief and explores the role of ritual in healing. 

Ben helps us define rituals vs. habits and allows me (Chris) to share a more personal story around my own ritual after a previous relationship. This was a great, deep, and insightful episode. I'm so excited to share it with you! 

Find Ben on Instagram @benthebreakuptherapist

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hi, I'm Chris, and this is not another gratitude podcast where we bring guests on the show while we also make them suffer by beating our intention wraps. And today we are joined by uh Ben Goldman. He is a therapist in private practice specializing in working with men and men's issues with a focus on sex, uh uh intimacy, relationship conflict, and breakups. I'm very good at those. Um his work centers on helping people navigate the emotional and physiological complexities of relationships with greater clarity and intention. He is currently researching and writing a book that reframes breakups through the lens of the attachment, grief, and explores the role of ritual in healing. That sounds a mouthful. Yeah, that's a lot. I don't even know where to begin.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Imagine actually, imagine actually like writing it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

I mean I think it I think it that book would probably take me like ten years to finish.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Well, I'm hoping it's not gonna take me ten years, but to to read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

I mean, I would I would I probably get triggered every five seconds and be like, uh oh, me. Okay, good. Uh-oh, me. Good. Well that's that's the goal. That's the goal. No, it's not the goal. Just kidding. I think that like we could all use a little bit of help in the relationship sphere. Oh yeah. I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Some more than others. Um, but yeah, that's that's that's that's the vibe. Thank you guys for having me. No, thank you for being here. I'm so happy to do to be to be making the beaded bracelet too. Yeah, so let me know. I love it, I love an activity. Like I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

The intention wrap was something that like I came up with out of a desire to not be making just like t-shirts all the time. People started being like, ooh, you should put this phrase on a t-shirt, you should put that phrase on a t-shirt. And I'm like, shut the fuck up. I do not want to do that. I'm not gonna turn into this like inspirational t-shirt company with like millions of skews that say, like, you know, it gets better. Like, no, like it's not gonna be us. State of gratitude, that's it. I can I'm a one and done kind of princess. And um, so the next logical step was like to come up with something that people could also wear. Right. And I liked bracelets. Figured let's make a bracelet. Mm-hmm. And now, you know, in the past what, like year, I think, they've really taken off in a really cool way. Um what a better way to break the ice with somebody new than to make them beat their own intention rap.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I love it. I think I think it's great. Are we saying our intentions out loud as we do the as we as we do these raps?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, because it's uh it's a thousand beads, so you need a thousand intentions. Oh, I will have I don't have that many. Every time a bead hits the thread, you have to say an intention. Oh, well. I'm just kidding. You don't have to do that. Because I don't I don't know, I don't even know if I live my life that intentionally, to be honest. Really? You don't like take a step and think to yourself, like, I'm glad I did that with so much intention.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

No, I I do, but but not but not a thousand times. Oh, okay. So you just make sure that you go places that have less than a thousand steps away. Maybe, maybe. I'm just kidding. Um so how long have you lived in New York for? I've been in New York for um nine, yeah, nine years. Um yeah, I moved here in 2017 after undergrad. And um did you go straight into private practice at that point? Well, honestly, I was I was just thinking, I was just thinking to myself, I'm like, how do I even like tell the story? Basically, I I moved to New York, I didn't really have a like a plan, like a sense of like what I was gonna do professionally. Uh-huh. And then I went through, you know, one of these kind of like spiritual journeys. Well, that probably too. And like uh one of these spiritual journeys that got me sober. Okay. And that brought me to applying to grad school, and which happened, which happened all pretty quickly. Like I moved to New York in 2017, I started grad school at the beginning of 2019. So it always was like pretty like boom, boom, boom. Um, but the cool thing was that um while I didn't move to New York being like, oh, I want to be a therapist, like I just I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Um, but once I got here and that path kind of like opened up in front of me, I was like, oh, like this is actually like very consistent with like everything that I care about and like all the things, all the skills that I think that I have, and all the types of relationships that I like to build. Um, and so the last yeah, like seven years um in this field has just been like this really cool journey of taking that and harnessing it into something um positive, something meaningful, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

Now I see you have a ring on your finger. Yes, I'm that must mean that you are I am married, yeah. I guess I guess I married last year. Congratulations. Congratulations. I guess then that means that like, you know, what you've learned, you've also probably been able to apply in your own life in some way, shape, or form, considering that you went from like an emotional state, you know, break of emotional states to now where you are today.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Yeah. I think it's interesting. I think, I think, um, well, first of all, I can assure you that just because someone's married, it doesn't have anything, it doesn't reflect in any way on their emotional well-being. Well, I mean at the same time, though, if I was it does happen to reflect for me. So it's so good.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

I just think that like maybe if I was gonna go and see a therapist for relationships or relationship expert, and they weren't married, then I might be like, huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Like That's a good point. That's a good point. I do think that, well, it's interesting because so I'm I'm writing this book about breakups, and actually there were two inspiring events for this, and one of them was getting married. Right. Because the book is about breakups and attachment grief and ritual. And ritual is something we often associate with things like religion or spiritual practices, but also uh ritual is a wedding is very is very ritual. Right. And I actually I just have this very intense emotional experience where I think as gay people, you don't really want to kind of engage in the ritual that's prescribed for you. You kind of want to create your own. But then also when you're in the process of creating your own ritual, you're also kind of like, is this legitimate? Like, is this like like what's the what what what am I doing? Like, is that does this matter? So anyway, all that's happening. Yeah, yes. I actually would say there's there's there's a fair amount of of imposter syndrome. But also what was interesting is in the mean in the meanwhile, I'm thinking I'm always thinking about topics of like relationship and conflict and grief and attachment, and and so there was something kind of internally conflicting for me around like, oh, like here I am kind of creating my own ritual to enter marriage, whatever the fuck that means. But then at the same time, kind of thinking about how like there really isn't ritual for attachment grief. Um and and it all kind of came to a head because about a month after my wedding, my father called me, and my my father is notoriously, famously very bad at breakups. Um and he calls me and he had he's like, Oh, I I you know just get out of my long-term relationship with my girlfriend, and I kind of like brace myself to for him to regale me with like all the drama of his of his breakup. And um I'm like, How are you doing? How are you feeling? He's like, honestly, I'm feeling really good. And I was like, You're feeling good. I was like, How are you feeling good? Like, how is this possible? And he's like, Well, I had my shaman come to the to come to come to my now ex-girlfriend's house, and she led us in a decoupling ritual to end the relationship. And I was totally flabbergasted. I was I was completely caught off guard because Is he a spiritual person in general? He is cut he is pretty spiritual. It's that part wasn't surprising. I think the surprising part was that he had the insight and wherewithal to be like, I'm going to do this with intention in this moment where I know I need it. Right. Because I think a lot of people hang on to things for way too long. Yeah, and like, and like and and and don't have like people like to talk about the idea of moving on or getting over something, which is fine. But I actually think with the the problem is in order to well, especially as I've been doing research for this book, like in order to actually like move on and make progress, you have to have a container to step into, you know. And I think that he did that successfully. He created this container where the shaman came, they lit a fire. I think they did something like write out resentments and burn them in the fire. They wrote like goodbye letters to each other and read them to each other. And within like three or four hours after the shaman left, he had like his car had been packed and he like left her house for forever. Wow. And they lived together. Yeah, they lived together, exactly. Oh wow, okay. And so, and so I was just really inspired by this because I think in my work, and especially like I said, like from like my personal experience of like going through like the wedding process, I all of a sudden was kind of like struck with this, like, okay, there's there's like socially constructed rituals and and routines that that that we have, right? It's kind of like, oh, like you get married in this way, or oh, you propose in this way, or oh, like if someone dies, you grieve in this way, right? But then there's kind of like this other piece of it, which is like, well, those those socially constructed rituals are important, but so are the ways in which we personalize them and and and and make something more meaningful of it.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Um so yeah, that's kind of like what inspired the whole thing, especially considering the fact that like you are somebody who leads a life with intention, even though it's not maybe every single step.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Um I do have a I do I I I I all joke aside, I do I do like to think that I live a pretty intentional life. I I love that.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I mean I do I I love to think that I do as well. Um it's one of the one things that like I constantly talking about all the time. It's just like like why are you doing this? Like, make sure that you're doing things intentionally. What is the why? What is the why? What is the why? Right. And uh to hear that you know you do the same thing is like is is nice. It makes me feel like I'm not as crazy as I think I am sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Uh it's one of the reasons why like this, you know, the way the way that this this research has been evolving has been so interesting to me because intention is actually kind of the glue here. So I kind of have developed this definition of ritual, not just for breakups, but in the context of my book, like all around breakups. And a ritual is an intentional, repeated act that has a beginning, middle, and end that you step into as a container in order to process something, make sense of it, or to access like a higher power or higher self, you know, and so like I think that kind of reflections on like gratitude and intention like all fit very well into this. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I mean Yeah, there's there's so many things that like we do on a day-to-day basis just because I guess we're just supposed to do them that if we actually stop to think about like, hey, why am I uh why am I doing X, Y, or Z, you might actually like come to find that like you actually have zero interest or desire in doing X, Y, and Z. And you're like, why have I been doing this this whole time? I don't even like doing this.

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Right. As we're uh talking about intention and rituals, I just keep thinking about the fact. So I have someone's name tattooed on my chest that had uh very an X. A situation ship. Yes, really? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Wow, okay, this is juicy.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

And so uh he's tattooed on my body. Are you in touch with him? Uh wasn't, and now we're back in touch again. Wait, what? Um yeah, no? Yeah. Um so I'm starting to think of what's the intention there? Why do I have it on my why do I still have this tattoo?

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Well, why what is the intention behind you wanting to like reconnect with this person? I know. That's where's this going? Is this going someplace positive?

SPEAKER_03 12:02

No, it's not going anywhere positive. Okay, then why are we doing this?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Well, let's start with the original like intention or maybe lack thereof. Why did you get his name tattooed on your body? What were you trying to demonstrate? What were you trying to communicate? What were you trying to solve for?

SPEAKER_03 12:16

There is a a deeper backstory. Um I was in a moment where I was going to uh commit suicide. I had the gun in my hand, suicide letters, he happened to call me in that moment. So it was a mixture of that, or at least I tell myself that's the reason. Sure. Or was it me trying to be like, oh, I'm in love with you. This is attention seeking, you know, because we would go back and forth for a couple years.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Right. Well, I mean, listen, like you're like you're talking about like a very intense emotional experience that you know this person like helped you helped pull you out of, and you know, maybe that was uh, you know, something you kind of view in a spiritual lens, like this person was like the way that God was protecting you, or maybe you view it more from the lens of like this person happened to be there, or like you said, maybe it's like you're infusing meaning onto it. Regardless, though, right, you went through, I think it's not always a ritual experience to get a tattoo, but what you're describing is sounds like a very ritual experience in terms of you stepped into something very intentional, very spiritual to access something bigger than yourself, and now you're questioning, and this is why intention matters, right? Like you're you're asking yourself, like, how intentional was it? Because if we were to ask Richard on that day, like how and how like what's the purpose of this is a big difference between Richard saying, I'm trying to memorialize this moment because like God protected me through this person, and that's why I'm putting this on my body, and like that's like the ritual intention, versus a you know, maybe a more honest you know, reflection on, you know, I really don't want to ever lose this person, and so I'm putting this on my body so I never can.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

I think that's probably what it is.

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I mean, I think that and at the same time though, like in the same way that we can shift or reframe uh an idea or notion about something, you know, the same way you can a tattoo. Like you could easily shift your framework. That's a that's a really good point. You could shift your mindset or your framework into thinking that this is more about commemora commemor whatever memorial is. My English is not very good looking. Uh the moment, and just realizing that like this doesn't mean that anymore. This means this. And then when he does reach out to you, you're not like, oh my god, this is the person who has who I have tattooed on myself. This is the person who helped cut me out of a heart.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

But what's interesting, actually, I really I really love what you just said because this is all very consistent with like the research that I'm that I'm doing and the writing that I'm doing, which is that you can take an act that you know, or a choice or a decision that had a meaning in a certain moment, and you get to reconceptual, you can reconceptualize meaning around it, right? Yeah and this is that's a very good example of it. But I do think that the premise of my book isn't that ritual is the answer to everything, the premise is more along the lines of ritual might be the missing piece that we need to reconceptualize a helpful version of meaning. And and and and if you were taking this idea of like, let's take this tattoo and reframe, reframe the meaning around it, of course, you could wake up every morning and say to yourself, this isn't about him. And that's and that's what I think a cognitive behavior therapy model would recommend. Like just every morning say to yourself, this is the way, this is what this represents. From a perspective of ritual, all of a sudden there's a new open playing field, which is like, what is it that Richard needs in order to step into something to reclaim the meaningful? It could be covering up the tattoo, right? But if you did that, you would want to do it with like a very intentional, like safe, like you know, can can kind of container experience as a form of protection and self of self-protection, you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Maybe I can uh cover up the tattoo with uh something that we can put the word mountain underneath it.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

What? We could put the word mountain underneath it. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

It seems rocky. Oh, oh, oh. But luckily it's in a different language. Oh, and then oysters underneath. Right. Oh but uh what I was gonna say. Oh yeah, so part of me is wondering if I don't cover it up with something that symbolizes that moment, having someone's name on me, does that stop me from another relationship?

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Right. Well, this is this is this is so this is this is actually the more important maybe the more important question.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

It's in yeah, that helps. If they don't speak Russian, it helps. Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

So you're not you're you're not dating Ilya Rosanov. No, sorry. Um I'll go for Scott. Um but what I'll say is that um I think you're hitting kind of like the important point here, which is that the meaning, the meaning making has to be an act that you kind of step into with like with with purpose and intention. And you're right, like it can be preventing you from detaching, right? And this is like this is the con this is why the concept of ritual I find to be so important, because when someone talks about wanting to get over someone or wanting to move on, right? Or they say things like time will heal, right? These are all true, like these are all conceptually true things. The problem is we're we're engaging what what you know There's no how. Well, the well, it's it's call it's called a you know external locus of control model, where essentially like the universe will take care of things and I don't have to be an active participant, right? And to create ritual is to be an active participant, and it actually It's like shifting the focus to somebody else instead of taking the responsibility. Yeah, and it's and it's not to say that like, especially because it has a spiritual like framing to it, it's not to say that like I'm in I run the show, it's not to say that like I'm in charge of everything. In fact, in some ways, you're kind of like, I'm still turning things over to God or a higher power or a spiritual self or you know, some some something bigger than me.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

It's like saying I want a six-pack, but then I'm not gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna turn it over to God.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Right. But yes, but also in the in the six-pack kind of metaphor, it's also kind of like, why do you why why do you want it? Well, because then it's gonna I'm gonna get validation from from people, right? Okay, so that's that's a fine want, but is that a want that merits ritual? Right. Not necessarily, right? I want to speak for yourself. Well, touche, touche, touche. Um but all this is to say that like I think that you know this this this this the more conversations I've been having with people, the more interviews I've been doing for the book, the more I've been convicted of this notion that like ritual is kind of this missing piece that I mean we have plenty of rich rich rituals in you know in within our culture, like spiritually or aspiritually, right? I think that like there are things that are associated as ritualistic things, whether that be like yoga or you know, 12-step programs has a lot of like rituals kind of associated with it. I think people's um spiritual practices, whether that be, you know, from like a Christian tradition or a Buddhist tradition or a Jewish tradition, these are all you know very ritual oriented things. Um I think the way we do holidays, you know, are all very ritualistic. Oftentimes there are rituals involved. My seances are pretty ritualistic too. Seances, I think people using, I think people doing tarot, I think the way people have sex, like all these are actually very ritualistic in nature. And so the more of a talking to people, it's actually that we're in I I find that it's about interjecting a word that people might not have heard of or thought about, but then as soon as they start to think about how their life has rituals in it, then it's actually not that complicated of a concept.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, I mean like I think I think ritual, I mean, for for those of you who might be listening, who's like, oh I don't really have rituals, it's like you can even think about them as being habits. Like, what are these habits that you do on a regular basis? And I mean, life in a lot of ways is habit-based. Like everything that we do from the moment we go to sleep to the moment we wake up is a habit. Yeah. Regardless of how you want to think about it, it's like, well, we habitually go to bed.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Like unfortunately, I do have to push back because it's a it's it's a good idea, but it's actually like the exact like kind of antithesis of of what of what I'm writing about. Because actually, habit and routine are maybe the building blocks for ritual. But if you think about it, right, going back to kind of the example of every day you could look yourself in the mirror and say to yourself, like, oh, like this tattoo doesn't isn't about him, it's about me like choosing life, you know, that's a habit. But that might not be sufficient, right? Sometimes habits aren't sufficient, and it's not because habits are bad, right? It's not in fact, like there's tons of really good habits. The concept is that sometimes we need something bigger, we need something more more exceptional, we need something more like to that to get us outside of our life and our routine. I hear you. And that's and that's where like the concept, but you're but you are right in like associating a link. Push away, push away. You're you're right in associating the link between them because I think from habits we can learn what rituals we can develop. Right, of course. Right?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

I think that habits habits might not necessarily have as much like meaning behind them. You know, like we could be brushing our teeth every single day. Right. And I have to think about like, well, what why am I doing this tooth? You know, like it's not necessary to like.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

Well, that's that's to go back to back to intention. This is this is this is this is the the the tension point, right? Is that like habit is less intentional, but it has some amount of intention, let's call it 60% of the level of intention in some cases. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

But it's not necessary really to like actually. I mean, maybe for me, it's not necessary to like do, you know, to think about it as much when I'm brushing my teeth. Exactly. Or when I'm like brushing my hair, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Well, when I'm talking to people about their breakups, they're like, well, maybe I have been engaging in a ritual ritual, I've been going to the gym. I'm like, oh, like, well, how's that been for you? Well, I've been feeling good in my body, blah, blah, blah, etc. And I'll kind of push back and I'll be like, okay, cool. So I think that's probably a really good habit, a really good routine for you. But let's talk about why that's different from a ritual, right? Because there are plenty of people who go through a breakup, they go to the gym, they get kind of bodied, right? And it Doesn't heal the wound, right? In the same way that like if someone is going through death grief, right, and maybe they are having issues with eating because their their body is like physically sick from the grief. If they get in the habit of eating, that's great. But it's not gonna heal the wound. I have a question for you.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

So let's say like does a ritual necessarily have to be something different that you may or may not have been well that you hadn't been doing. Let's say, for instance, like you go through a breakup. Yeah. You said that the gym isn't really a good ritual to like claim, and that is probably because of the fact that like, you know, for a lot of reasons, but in my thinking, I'm like, okay, does it necessarily then have to be something that you may not had been like they that person could have been going to the gym before the breakup? Yes. So does it have to be something that you weren't doing during the breakup?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

It's a great, it's a great question. The answer is that it depends, right? So for example, you could have a fitness gym and like physical activity related ritual that you engage in, right? So I was talking to one woman in an interview, and she was talking about her relationship with the gym, and she was like, I kind of want to formulate a ritual around the gym. And I was like, okay, so I think that what you might want to do is pick a day that you're gonna go to the gym, right? One one day. And when you go, maybe beforehand, like in the parking lot outside the gym, maybe you write a letter to either your your ex or to your your broken-hearted self or something like that, and then you tuck it into your bra or in your whatever, and you go into the gym and you do a really, really, really hard workout, like with that letter like on your physical body, and then you come back outside and maybe you like you burn it or something like that. Right? That's like taking something that's already habitual and like adding intention to it, not because that is like the right way to heal, but because you're taking something and elevating it, you're bringing it to a higher level. You know what I mean? And so so the reason why I can't say like, oh, like a gym is a bad ritual, that's that's not the case. It's it's less about if the gym is a good ritual or not. It's more about allowing a ritual to be something exceptional that lives outside of like a singular moment.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Now I want everybody who's listening or watching to this uh podcast to do this on your next time going to the gym. And then like a letter, tuck it in your in your brostrophic. And then burn it the moment that you leave the gym, regardless of where you are, whether or not you're in New York City. Whether you're in the fire.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Maybe not even outside the equinox. Just the right thing. Just keep it. Please don't do that. No, please don't do that. But also, but like this is why it's so this is why it's it's it's I I'm finding it so exciting but also challenging to be working on this project because I don't have the answers to every what everyone's ritual should be. It's actually about having conversations with people and about like, for example, like Ruth Richard and the tattoo thing, like that's not the only ritual, but like it's something that's like hurting for him. And so maybe formulating a ritual that has to do with the tattoo would be healing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Um When I first started this company and started doing like a lot of pop-up events, I actually I guess you could say this is a listed ritual, but like I made a ritual of selecting cities that I'd previously lived in that I had kind of like that is very ritualistic. That I had destroyed my life in. Oh, that's right. And so I went back to every single one of those cities and I did pop-up events in them to be able to reclaim those places and to be able to like uh create other memories or other thoughts associations with those cities that I had previously like lived in. So I did that with like Chicago, I did it with LA, I did it with Miami in a lot of ways, I did it with New York, I did it with like everywhere that I've been, everywhere that we went to over the course of like two years was very intentional and why I selected those places, and it was because I needed to spend time in those places to be able to recreate positive associations from negative ones.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

See, that's actually a beautiful definition of ritual, and this is like when I'm doing these interviews with people, I often find stories like that where it's kind of like maybe they didn't use the word ritual at the time, but that is very ritual, ritual informed because you said to yourself, here's a pain point, here's a place, and I have to do something intentional step into it. And the ritual of like having the pop-up had some logistical steps. You have to like bring the merch and set up the table and make your and like publicize it, like all those things are things that like have intention. And if you're infusing it with this like true sense of like, I want to reclaim this place, like that's a like a beautiful like was it healing for you? Oh my god, it was incredible. What was a moment that you kind of realized that this was uh incredibly healing for you?

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Uh there were a few different times that it was like pretty impactful. Yeah. Um I don't even like, yeah. So I think it was my time in Chicago, which actually probably the most impactful. I ran into somebody within the first like 24 hours of being there, uh who had really kind of like I had run into somebody who had really kind of like helped propel me in the right direction. Uh not for the best reasons possible. Basically, it was somebody who was living in my space. We had gotten very physical, and I had like a moment where I realized that like if I didn't do something about the way that my life was heading, I was gonna probably end up dying in that apartment. Right. Um, I had a big gash on my forehead, it was not it wasn't it was not cute at all. Uh it was from that experience and that moment that it was like that literal day that I like called my parents and told them what was up and took the power away from the person who was trying to blackmail me for the past like I don't even know how many months. Wow. Um and so within the first like 24 hours of being in Chicago, I run into him. Uh and not in any place, I ran into him like in a meeting. And it was crazy to even have it happen. Um, because I thought about it the whole entire time that I was driving to Chicago. I was like, oh my god, what if I run into him? Right. What will I say? What will I do? How will I act? And I freaked out about it for such a long time that eventually I forgot about it. And I got to Chicago, went straight to a meeting, and the moment that I walked into the meeting, he wasn't there, and I was like, okay, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Perfect. Did you know that he was sober?

SPEAKER_02 28:01

No. Okay. And then uh because he still had like a he had like a passport ID card of mine. And so like every couple months, every like six months or so, I'd get like a bing from some local like police station and somewhere, and they would tell me that like they had they had uh that my like passport ID card had resurfaced in the in a recent arrest. And I'd be like, oh, okay, like I know who has it. And uh and so be because of that, like I'd never thought that I would actually run into him that way. I just have to be like on the street or whatever. And um, and I with the meeting started, the first five minutes went by, door opened, and he walked, and I literally almost shit my pants. Yeah. Um and I probably had like skid marks after that. But um, it was just like it was crazy because then what ended up happening was like I we said hello to one another, and and I was gonna be in Chicago for two weeks, and we're gonna do the Chicago Marathon Expo. And when I was there, I asked a friend of mine who lives in Chicago, who I've known for many years, I was like, hey, like I need to I need to hire some people for this weekend for this event. I need them to be sober, I need them to like be jobless, I need them to really need really need a job. Yeah, neither were I. And he was like, hire X. And I was like, anybody else. Yeah. He's like, he's like, but that kid is like so motivated, he's so determined, he's like, he's doing everything right. Like Jesus. He's like the first person that comes to mind if you were to ask me a question like that, you should hire X, and I was like, I'm like, I I don't know if I can. Like, there's just like a lot of it's a pain point for me to like even have to think about that. Yeah. Um and eventually I ran into somebody else and I asked them who they thought I should hire, and they they said him as well. And I was like, okay, fuck. I'm like, I think this was actually meant to happen. So I I uh I messaged him and I said, Hey, like, I I heard you're looking for a job. I would love to hire you for the weekend. You j you would start on Wednesday and you work with me till Sunday, and like it's pretty much every single day. It's a really intensive job. Like, are you up for it? I'll pay you this number of hours, like this much, whatever, whatever. And he couldn't believe it. I mean, you couldn't believe it either. Yeah, he couldn't believe that I was even like talking to him. Yeah. Um, and then the fact that I like hired I ended up hiring him, he worked with me for the whole entire weekend, him and like two other people, it ended up being a really, really, really positive experience. Um talk to him now to this day.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Because he was the one that you're uh you went to go see when we were in Chicago, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. See, what this is what I mean in terms of like ritual. Like, once again, like you weren't actively calling this a ritual, but like this was a ritual. Yeah in the sense that like you stepped into a healing container with intention. You couldn't do it, you actually could not have done that unintentionally. Like it would have been A, dangerous, and B, like it wouldn't have been healing. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I mean, it was like it was I I still can't even believe that it happened the way that you did. Um but yeah, it was it was intense, it was a really intense experience. And you guys had been romantically involved at one point too? I mean, come on, not really. Like it was like one of those uh drug-fueled relationships that never really was anything to begin with. Right. Um it was just more like toxic. It was just it was just more of like a convenience thing. Like he was he was in the right place at the right time at the right moment. Uh and as a result, I was in the right place at the right time at the right moment for him, and I mean for better or for worse, like if you're watching this, uh yeah, um sorry for talking about it, but you know who you are. And and we're still we're yeah, we're friends now. So like uh I think that we just kind of like latched onto this for companionship, even though there was never any sort of like romantical link involved. Right. Um don't even think we I don't even think we slept together. Yeah. Uh and so like from the moment that like we were like connected, it was just a tumultuous thing from the very get-go. Right, right, right. I really like I, you know, explored new depths to the drugs that I was using.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Um well if you think about it, like in some in some ways, like in a dar in a dark-sided way, like there's also like almost like dark rituals that we end up kind of like over-attaching, unhelpfully attaching. Right. I think especially when drugs are involved, sex is involved, you know.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I go through like every single like you go through every single emotional state within like a 24-hour period. Yeah. You go through like the likes, the butterflies, then like the you're like romantically involved, and you're basically married by like hour 18, you're like having your first fights, and then by hour 24, you're getting divorced.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Right, exactly. In some ways, I cut would call it kind of like a perverted ritual, you know what I mean? It's like it almost feels like a ritual, but it's not really one because it's not safe and it's not and it's not connecting you to something like bigger or higher than yourself, or like a more um elevated version of yourself, you know, and so it's um yeah, it's an interesting, it's but I think that's a really, really cool and beautiful example. I really appreciate you sharing that because um this is why I'm writing this book, because I think that actually a lot of people, you know, and I've been doing these interviews now for a couple months, and like a lot a lot of people have stories, you know, like this, you know, name specifically about their breakups. And I think there's a lot we can learn from each other, not by trying to mimic the exact ritual. Right, like, oh, go hire, you know, your ex-abusive, you know, somewhat person in your life and like heal that way, but we can learn through this thematically, through like the concept of like intention and the the concept of what I like to call creating a container, you know, and creating a container means something that you can step into with that intention, with that purposefulness, but it also has a beginning, middle, and end. You know what I mean? Like there's there, you know, and that's why like the example that you gave really like resonates as a ritual because there was a start date, there was a start date and there was an end date. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, I got to Chicago on a certain date, that expo started on a certain day, that expo ended on a certain date, and I left Chicago on a certain date.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, and throughout that whole experience, you made choices, intentional choices that allowed you to heal with the intention to heal, you know? Like, especially with something like 12-step informing your choices, 12-step is very ritualistic, but once again, this is the difference between routine and ritual. Every time someone goes into an AA meeting, it's they're not necessarily engaging in a ritual. Sometimes they're just like following their habit or their routine, right? But sometimes, right, you step into something, you're going through something really painful, or you know, you're going through the 12 steps or something like that, and all of a sudden, like you're stepping into something that's much bigger than just this one-off meeting.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

So, one thing that we love to do on this show is an ungrateful confession.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

An ungrateful confession.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yes, this is a moment where you tell me something that has been driving you crazy, you confess it to me, and we will forever memorialize it. We will put everything that you say in a plaque and put it up on the wall. Just kidding. But basically, what we like to do is we like to just kind of like highlight or memorize memorize, uh Memorialize. Memorialize No, no, that's not even what I'm looking for. We just want to show you, we would want to like make sure that like we always remain human in these types of scenarios and situations just to show that, like, hey, we're human too. We all have those moments in time where like we might feel a little ungrateful, and we have to confess that we feel ungrateful. Yeah, but yeah. I mean, just because just because we work at a place called State of Gratitude, you know, that I own a company called State of Gratitude, that I'm supposed to be like this like guruy person that walks around and just like bless thee of thy grateful moment. Right, right, right, right. Oh my god, I'm sorry, I keep like shooting beads at you, that's so rude. I'm doing okay for a first timer, but you're doing great for a first timer.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

You got a lot on that thread. So it's here. Give me your ungrateful. What is what? Okay, okay, okay. Let me think for a second, because I okay. You're like, I've not in that mindset, we'll get in. No, I wasn't, I wasn't, but like now, yeah. Um, okay, I um I am a I'm working on this trait, but I'm a very like Oh, and you're working on what? I'm working on this trait, I said. Okay, yes, yes, yes. But I have I I just struggle with like a sense of urgency all the time. And I think that it manifests as like me like not really giving myself room to like pause or room to breathe. And so I think the thing that I'm like ungrateful for is like my trait of being on the go and being so in a state of urgency all the time. Um I understand why I have this trait. I think it's like what's made me kind of like you know push myself. Um, but I also have been lately really resenting it because my therapist and I have been working on like how maybe this trait is, you know, well, it's born of old wounds, but is also keeping me from like actually being able to like savor things in my life. Um and so I'm not particularly grateful for that today, um, slash often. Um so does that is maybe answer the question? Perfect. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah. Mine is hackers. I hate hackers because what happened over the past week is uh if you've gotten a weird message from me on Facebook or Instagram, it was not me. Uh I don't know if that's actually been happening, but um, we got hacked on Tuesday. Yeah. And like our my Instagram account was like state of gratitude. No, my personal Instagram account was was taken over, it was hacked, and it was so annoying because I couldn't access anything, and then I kept getting booted out, and it was just like this nightmare. And like whoever hacked into this account, fuck you. Um, but also they turned on all these ads that were like linked to my personal Instagram account and Facebook. So I was starting to get notifications that like I had run like $200, $300, $400 worth of ads. Oh my god. And they were it the reason why I knew I don't really I don't really go on Facebook or Instagram that often. I'm hardly ever on there. Um and I started getting pinged that my card was getting declined. Oh my god. PayPal. And I was like, PayPal is not set up with Meta anymore. That's so weird. Everything goes straight through Shopify balance. And I'm like, I should go in and check this out and see what's up. When I went to log in, wrong password. And I'm like, shut, huh? How could this be a wrong password? I don't even know. Like I'm like, A, I don't even know what the right password is. Like, but B, I'm like, I don't even go in here. Like, how could it not be the right password? And I kept trying and trying. Couldn't get in, couldn't get in, couldn't get in. Realized that like all my accounts had been taken over, my Facebook and my Instagram had been taken offline, like, and that this person had turned on every single ad that was like in my ad manager, and so they it was like running hundreds of hundreds of thousands of impressions like every single day for a week, and I didn't even notice until finally the credit card declined.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

And it was really frustrating and really annoying, and still dealing with it to this day, uh, because meta, you need better support system. I'm pretty sure the last person that I spoke to was probably uh like taken by somebody because it sounded like they were in the bunker of a basement. And like it was the weird, I'm like, I don't even know how you guys could legitimately call this support. If it sounds like the person who is answering the phone is in the basement of uh God knows where in the middle of like God knows what part of Europe, allegedly, and you just hear some man in the background like screaming at somebody. I'm like, this is so bizarre. And and she's like whispering on the phone, and I'm like, Do you need help? Like blink once if you need help. Like, tell me, tell me in another language if you need somebody, if you need me to send somebody because I don't know where you are. Like, man's screaming in the background, she's whispering on the phone. Like, it was so weird. But that's a lot, that's a lot to be ungrateful for, I would say I have to say. Oh, it's I mean it's one thing, but it's just like it's a big thing. It's a big thing. It's huge. But hopefully that all can get sorted out soon because I'm tired of wasting time and energy on something that doesn't really do much for me in the first place. Right. I just need access to it because like heaven forbid they get into like a state of gratitude or something. I know. Right. And that would be an even bigger issue. So I need to make sure that like my stuff is like locked up or locked down or just doesn't exist at all. Update your passwords, darlings. Yes, yeah, yeah. Be on the lookout. They're they're they're real, they they happen. You don't I always used to hear people talk about this happening to them, and I'm like, oh like you think you're important. And now I realize it's just like it's not even that you think you're it's like it's just really annoying. Yeah, it's really annoying, and especially for somebody who doesn't go on there that often, yeah, to like just start getting pinged that I'm spending hundreds of dollars somewhere, and just like I can't really yeah, it's like a very complex situation to be in, and it sucks. So if you're a hacker, coming for you. Uh if you're not. Thank you so much for listening. And that's what I got. What about you, Richard? Do you have anything you're ungrateful for today?

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Yeah, um, well, on Saturday, I'm supposed to go have dinner and meet up with a friend who's in town. And I was 45 minutes late because of the train. The C decides to the C on weekends decides to run. Local? Well, it's always local. But it decides to run at odd times, and then decides to stop in the middle where I don't have service, and I can't update, so I look like I'm Dorite.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Oh Dorite Kemseley. Well, you're not even talking like her though. How do you think you're Dorite?

SPEAKER_03 42:21

But uh, I'm late. I have re have an 8 o'clock reservation. I'm walking in at 8 45. Did they wait for you? Well, no, well, I told them not to. But it's just, it's embarrassing. Yeah. When I kept telling myself, oh, at the next stop, I'll just take a car. But we get to the next stop, and it's like, oh, okay, we're we go to a couple stops and it's seemingly fine and then. Oh yeah. I then get stopped again. It's like, oh no, I'm just going to I'm just on here. And normally it's a 10-minute train ride. Where were you going? Uh uh went to dinner, wild. Oh, wild. Crazy. But yeah, that's uh the train on the weekends.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, the train on the weekends. It's annoying. And it's yeah, it's not as easy just to like hop off and just like get a car either because now it's like then you're stuck in traffic on the you're doing really well. You're stuck in traffic. A lot of black beads on the table, but you're doing really well.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

What about you, Tiara?

SPEAKER_00 43:27

I would have to say maybe the weather. It's like very up and down. One day you're wearing shorts, and then the next day I have my winter coat on.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Or in the same day you're wearing shorts and then it's cold.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Like Saturday, it started off so beautiful and then it was cold and rainy. No, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

LA is like one of those places that like you start off the day one way, and like by the by the evening, you're like I don't know. I felt like every time I when I was spending time out there, I would basically have a whole closet in my trunk. So be like, okay, I might start off the day with a t-shirt on, but then I'll end it with like a parka.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

I was living in Miami, so you know, it was it was those temperature changes for me were quite extreme at the time. New Yorkers are probably like, wait, what? You would end up with a parka. Is it like 65 degrees outside? I'm like, yes, 65 is winter coats, like earmuffs, gloves.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

When you're from Miami.

SPEAKER_01 44:27

So the weather has been definitely up and down.

SPEAKER_03 44:31

So usually when people uh get married, they tend to write books on you know finding love and uh you know relationships. Uh what made you decide to go this route?

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Well, yeah, like I said, I told the story about my dad, and I think that was that was like really that was that was that was very inspired. That was definitely the inspiration. I mean, and he knows this. Um we we had like a really like nice talk about it, honestly. Um but then what happened was I started reading other books about breakups, about grief, um, about attachment, and I kind of just I just I just I just felt that this oh my god, I'm just spraying the sea the the beads all over the place. Um I just I just found that this concept of like ritual in or something to kind of to heal better was kind of a gap. And I also found that there was a lot of language that was really redundant, right? This like time will heal, um, you just gotta get over it, you know, just gotta wait it out.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

Self-help language.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

And I don't actually think it's I actually think there's like something intrinsically wrong with that. But also, I also topics like things like no contact kept coming up, and I was very curious. I was like, how does this all work? Like, how is this all helping people heal? And and why are some people healing and some and some people not healing, you know? And and you know, you hear people who like, oh, like I went through this breakup and I couldn't date again for 10 years, and you're like, like, what what happened there? Like, why and um and obviously there's tons of individual cases and individual reasons, but I think that I really just then started to think about how people process death grief because in the body, the nervous system really grieves attachment grief this similar way to death grief, right? Because it's reaching for something that's no longer there. And you might say, like, oh, well, in death grief it gets maybe easier because it's that person's gone forever. And that's that's true, but in some breakups, the person is truly gone forever, right? And in some and in some breakups, you know, maybe it's a little more complex. I never see my exes. And there's nothing, and I don't think there's anything wrong with you know, no contact, for example, but I think that it's oftentimes it strikes me that people want to just you know excommunicate, you know, remove someone from their life. And my question is like, so what did you what did you do for yourself? You know? And you start, and I kind of started with some big questions, like, okay, like maybe like, you know, is is you know, people go to therapy, like that's the helpful thing, whatever. But then I started to, you know, I'm I'm a big as a therapist, I'm a big believer that therapy isn't the loose solution to everything, which maybe, you know.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Did you say that no contact then is necessarily like an easy path out?

SPEAKER_01 47:25

I would say that no contact is probably necessary when people need to detach the nervous system, but it takes the nervous system like a few months to experience that detachment. Um, so I don't think permanent no contact is necessary, but also after the detachment occurs, then like what's the point of the attachment? Like maybe you need it, maybe you don't need it. I don't I don't really have a black and white view on no contact where it needs to be like this like forever thing, right? But more important than whether or not someone's engaging in no contact or not, but especially if someone's trying to and they're struggling with it, that's where the ritual comes in. Like, what are you replacing it with? Right, and honestly, routine and and and be can be can be a helpful tool as well. Like, what kind of routines are you are you adding to your life? Um but you know, I've talked to people who have really, really robust routines in their life as they're going through a breakup and they still just kind of can't seem to heal. And that's where kind of like this reflection of ritual becomes, from my perspective, pretty important.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Now, yeah, I mean that makes sense. I just you know, I think of it as like like saying, okay, I'm just never gonna talk to them ever again. And it's like, well, that almost feels like the easy way out. Because then you're like, it's really easy to avoid somebody, but then you're not really focusing on like solving any of the issues of the relationship or why you ended up in this position in the first place. Right. Like, like maybe, you know, self-help is also an important factor in you know, getting over somebody or going through a breakup. It's not necessarily just like, I'm just never gonna talk to them because that's what somebody told me to do, and that's the easiest way to get over somebody. It's like, well, girl, like, why are you going through so many breakups?

SPEAKER_01 49:03

That's that's that's that's that's that's an interesting question. I think I think that um the inch what whether it's ritual, you know, or whether it's maybe something that's a little bit more routine-like, I think that introspection is obviously very important. Um, and I think that, yeah, like when you're when you're in the process of or when you're avoiding healing, I think that it's very difficult to take accountability, right? Because the pain just like kind of outshines the necessity for account self-accountability. Um but then yeah, other times when you're engaging with um holding yourself accountable, maybe you know, yeah the circumstances will be will be different.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

So it just it just depends. Yeah. I'm just I I'm perfect, so I don't really know what that's like to hold yourself accountable. Because if you don't ever make mistakes. Like I don't know. Um but you know, I I think that there's something that other people could probably learn from this, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

I was just thinking because um I was in a serious relationship for almost what a little over eight years. Yeah right before I got sober. And then I got sober. And I think the healing from that relationship was probably the easiest because I was also getting sober at the time. So I was working on healing. I realized what I did because drug use and being physically abusive to somebody is you know, you take accountability for that. Right. So I was able to move on.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Right. And well it's interesting is that like, you know, yeah, you had you had containers through recovery to hold yourself accountable, to, to heal, right? Um, and that's why like as I'm doing these interviews, like people who are like are in 12 step are people who have religious practices, and I mean like real religious practices, not like you know, vague spiritual practices, like that, those are actually really great things, right? I think that one of the reasons why we struggle with how to get over a breakup is because you know, we've moved into like a for a lot of good reasons. We've moved into like a pretty like agnostic, like non-rel non-religious, non-spiritually centric society, which is which is great in many ways. But I do think that like we it's our then our responsibility to kind of create new rituals for healing if we're not using outdated rituals that worked for people in the past, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Right. Like those rituals that existed back then may have you know been forced upon people to practice them regardless of whether or not they actually wanted to, whereas like now it's like you have the ability to create your own rituals and do how you want them, like do them how you want them to be. Exactly. But actually take the opportunity to do them because if you're just not gonna do them at all, maybe you should go back to the way things were back then. Go back to what? The way that things were back then.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Oh yeah, maybe. Um but yeah, I think I think I think you know it's uh you're kind of hitting the nail on the head, which is that like ritual has a subjective component, which is like you kind of create your own thing, but also there's like taking broad inspiration from other people who are doing other things, other things, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yeah, when I got sober, my therapist told me I need to create new rituals because she was saying the practice of calling the dealer, getting everything set up, uh you know, getting your your paraphernalia in order is uh practice. It's a ritual. It is a ritual, yeah. So she recommended uh you know what she recommended either tea, getting loose leaf tea, doing something like that. Not getting what? Or um coffee, doing uh French press or something like that. So you have to wait for the coffee to I mean the water to boil, then you know, pick out the different co whichever coffee you want, right, and then put it into the French press. So it's a whole process.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

It comes back to intention, you know what I mean? And I and I think I think that's I think that that kind of replacement, and that's kind of like this bridge between like you know, these big concepts of rituals and like it's it's not that's not just roots. It does become routine, but I think initiating it is a ritual. You know, starting a process like that is a ritual because you have to like really reflect on what is it that I'm going to be able to like sustain, right? Crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:22

Yeah, how like how like when you were like using you had all the time in the world to like do all these rituals and things, but now as a sober person, it's like having to wait for coffee feels like an eternity. No, you're like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 53:35

I actually was thinking about that because I stopped doing that. I have the French press in my apartment.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Takes too much time.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

I have the cat, but I'll go buy uh Colbrew around the corner.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Right. I mean, I take every time I take Teddy on a walk every morning, and we stop at the Starbucks in the corner. I used to I never understood people's infatuation with going to Starbucks every day. I was like, why do they do that? Like I don't get it, like da-da-da-da-da. But now Teddy and I go to Starbucks almost every single morning and get a cup of coffee and a little uh cinnamon coffee cake. Oh yeah, and a pup cup, and like it's turned into like this every morning thing, and I'm like, oh my god, I became that person I used to make fun of all the time. Right. And it's just yeah, it's crazy how like when we were when we do things with intentional with ritual, you know, they might end up becoming the one person that you never thought you were gonna become in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Maybe maybe a way of of conceptualizing it is that the difference between ritual and routine is that routine is about creating predictability so you could have more psychological safety, and ritual is actually about creating psychological safety so you can step out of your routine.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

I mean, if you want me to like run away from something, call it a routine. Like you're not like them at all. Like the moment that something becomes like like a routine for me, uh I tend to like turn around and I just like drop some napalm and like blow it up.

SPEAKER_01 54:53

Right.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Well, do you think that some rituals do become routine?

SPEAKER_01 54:57

100%. I mean, someone's first AA meeting is absolutely a ritual, right? You have to step into it with intention, or most of the time it's a ritual, right? Like you have to step into it with intention. It's a oh my god, I'm almost done. Um you it's a really it's a you think it's a real it's a really big deal, it's like a it's it's a big moment, and then you know, by continuing to go to AA meetings, like eventually it becomes part of your routine, right? Which doesn't take away from its meaningfulness as a practice, but it might take away from its meaningfulness meeting to meeting. So not every single time is going to be like this like white lifetime of experience, like or white, sorry, white light experience. Um in the same way you spoke about like the other way around, like where routines can also become rituals.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

Exactly. Yes, yes, correct. Both, both, both can be.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

Do you think that when it becomes uh routine or your ritual becomes routine, does it take away from the original effect?

SPEAKER_01 55:50

No, I just I just I just think that when we are trapped in heartbreak specifically, we have to have interruptions. You know, you you need stability to like to stabilize yourself after a relationship, but then you also need interruption to break yourself out of the unhelpful routines, mental, especially cognitive routines that you get trapped in. That's kind of how I how I think about that.

SPEAKER_03 56:13

Okay, that makes sense. So, another quick question. So, with that, like if you have a ritual for one breakup, it becomes a healthy routine that you've added to your life. Yeah. Do you need to adjust it if you have another breakup, or can you I think it depends.

SPEAKER_01 56:28

I think, for example, like I interviewed this, I interviewed this one woman who went through this really intense divorce, and she started having these family dinners um to give initially to give some like stability for her kids. Um, and then eventually it kind of became this really healing ritual for her with her ex-husband. Um, and she talked about using that ritual to heal through a subsequent breakup um with another person. And so I think that you know, it it depends on how it kind of so the intention that you yeah, the intention and like how how like how exceptional it is versus how routinized it is, you know, like if it's something that's happening like every, you know, all the time, like it might not hold the same weight, you know. Um but I think that if it's something that is, you know, I was talking to this other woman who, you know, did tarot to get through a uh an abusive relationship, and I was asking her toward the end of the interview, like, oh, do you do tarot all the time? She's like, no, like I can't, because it has to stay this like sacred thing. And so when I need it, whether it's for a breakup or like a big moment in life, whatever, like I can like step into it and like access it, but I can't treat it as something that's like always available to me because otherwise I'll like take away kind of like the power of that.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

That's what happened to me with yoga. Like, right, yoga's another good example. I used to do yoga all the time, and then I did a yoga teacher training, and now I'm just like fuck yoga. Right, exactly. So sometimes not always. I do like yoga. I do yoga every once in a while, and like it just doesn't have the same meaning. I had to step away from it for a while in order to in order to have it like reclaim the purpose of what meant to me before. Yeah. Exactly. Once you get so involved in it and you go to Costa Rica for like two weeks and you're eating the same thing every day, and the sun sets at five o'clock, and and then like they charge you like $45 for a thing of blueberries, like you into you end up like starting to resent it, and you're like, why am I doing this in the first place?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Right. Oh my god, I think I slayed, honestly. Oh yeah, you think I had? I think we really covered like that. Yeah, I really, I really, I like really love, especially loved your story about the about Chicago. I think that was like a really beautiful example of of ritual and exactly what I'm talking why I'm talking to people to understand like what their relationship with ritual is, um, because it's so variable.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

I mean, it's so it it intention is like so much intertwined in my whole life. I mean, you're literally making an intention route. Right. And I think that like I think that oftentimes we forget that the things that we do need intention, which is which is probably I mean, which is why I jokingly say that I run away from routine. Right. Because I don't ever want to feel like I'm just living a a life filled with like habits or routines. I want to live a life that is filled with intention. Right. Where everything I do feels intentional. Uh not you know, not intentional in the way where I'm like, okay, like this step I'm going to take is going to be the one that brings me one step closer to my breakfast. Like now. But at the same time, it's like realizing that like every day is a beautiful gift, and you know, and always wanting to take advantage of every moment. Um for whatever whatever that whatever that may look like. Yesterday it looked like taking advantage of the fact that it was a dreary day and I got to stay, like, stay inside for most of it. Yeah. You know, but like at the same time, it's like doing it with the mind mindfulness of it. 100%. And I love that you live that life as well, and that you can understand and appreciate it on another level. And and I think that a lot of our a lot of the people who will be watching this will also be of a very similar like mind. Or maybe they won't be, maybe they'll be more interested in other things. We'll find out soon enough, won't we?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

So, yeah, where can we find you? What socials? Yeah, so um my Instagram is Benjamin J. Goldman. Um, my Instagram account devoted to my work around breakups is Ben the Breakup Therapist. Um, so if you have a story you want to share or you're interested in learning more following the process around that, um find me there.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

So I always tell people that when we put these on, there's two different ways to do it. But the most important thing is do you want the state of gratitude to be pointing out towards you or away from you? Um Do you want to remind yourself or do you want to show it to others?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

You can you can put it away from me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Away from you, yeah. Okay. I'm putting, I'm finishing off this bracelet by tying it together and then affixing our little gold bead that covers our knot. A lot of people don't even realize that this gold bead covers the knot, but it actually is intentional. It's not it's not just there for beauty. Uh because as we spoke about earlier, everything is intentional, everything we do with purpose. And so the purpose of this bead is not only to look cute, but it is also to cover or hide a knot. The knot. This color is one of my favorites. He did the uh map, the semi-matte black. On the website, it's just black race around, but you if you look at the beads like really closely, you can tell that they're just like, you know, they're not shiny, but they have like a finish to them. It's like really cool. So this is how we're gonna put it on. So let me see your wrist, which we're gonna do this one. Because you said you wanted the state to gravitate away from you. Yeah. And you can set an intention as I put it on you. Stress, so sure to get like that perfect size every single time. You can slide your finger underneath all of them, and then you can just like even it out. Yeah. And every time you look at it, you'll always be reminded of what it means to you. And the nice thing about the wraps is that you can shower with them if you want to take it off. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

This was great. Thank you, thank you.