KLP Chat 1: H P Fryer on OGG, Illustration, and Feeding Kids' Imaginations

Host Shara Curlett introduces episode one of The KidLit Pod and interviews New Zealand author-illustrator H.P. Fryer (Hannah Powell Fryer), whose debut picture book OGG was published by Scholastic Australia in 2025.

Hannah explains entering the publishing scene via an illustrator portfolio call, developing OGG from a university character exercise, and describes how she created the book’s detailed gouache-and-pencil illustrations.

The conversation covers her history and illustration studies, artistic influences, how parenting increases exposure to children’s books, and shared views on limiting devices, valuing boredom, and “feeding” children’s minds with stories.

Hannah's illustration Influences, mentioned throughout the podcast:

• Quentin Blake
• Sarah Ogilvie
• Júlia Sardà
• Alex Scheffler
• Beatrice Alemagna
• Lynley Dodd
• Bob Graham
• Alison Lester
• Briony Stewart
• Briony May Smith
• Alex T. Smith

You can find out more about our guest, H.P. Fryer (Hannah Powell Fryer), here:

HP Fryer on Instagram (@hpfryer)

HP Fryer Website (www.hpfryer.com)

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BOOK SHOUTOUT LINK:

Josie Mack and the MEGA Division

Follow The KidLit Pod  on Instagram (@thekidlitpod)

Find out more about The KidLit Pod host, Shara Curlett, here:

Shara Curlett on Instagram (@sharacurlett)

Shara Curlett Website (www.sharacurlett.com)

Transcript

The KidLit Pod Chat with H P Fryer
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[00:00:00] Shara Curlett: Welcome to episode one of The KidLit Pod, a collective industry-wide discussion of people who are creating, sharing, discussing, and celebrating books, all with the hopes of capturing children's hearts and minds. I'm Shara Curlett, your host and author of two middle grade novels, Welcome to Miracle, released in 2025, and Protector of Beyond, the first book in an upcoming fantasy series with Penguin Australia, set for release September 2026.

H.P. Fryer or Hannah Powell Fryer is an author-illustrator from New Zealand who loves stories, children, and the magic of imagination. Her debut picture book, OGG, was published by Scholastic Australia in 2025. With degrees in history, philosophy, and illustration, she blends big ideas with fun art to tell new stories.

She spends all her time looking after her two children, writing, reading, and drawing, which explains why her house is always a mess. And that is something I can completely relate to.

Here we go, our chat with H.P. Fryer.

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[00:01:04] Shara Curlett: So, hi Hannah. Thank you for coming onto The KidLit Pod. We met each other last year, was it? 

[00:01:10] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, I think so. 

[00:01:11] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. 

[00:01:12] Shara Curlett: 2025 and it was one of those strange situations where we were going through the same journey at the same time and we didn't know each other, and then our books came out and we suddenly discovered each other. You live ten minutes away from me. You had your debut book come out with Scholastic Australia as well, like me . And it was pretty cool because we are in the Australian kidlit industry, however, we're quite removed being over the ditch.

[00:01:39] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, I couldn't believe it because it was the librarian at the school I was going to do a talk at, and she said, oh, someone else had come in and they were from Scholastic Australia too. And I thought she'd got it wrong. I was like, oh, okay. 

[00:01:54] Shara Curlett: I know.

[00:01:54] Hannah P Fryer: Because I was like, I couldn't believe that there's someone ten minutes away from me who also had a book coming out in 2025 who also had a book coming out with Scholastic Australia. 

[00:02:03] Shara Curlett: Yeah,

[00:02:04] Hannah P Fryer: So random. 

[00:02:04] Shara Curlett: It was random. And it was really nice because there are so many tight communities within Australia and I know a lot of the Australian kidlit industry, and they have their meet-ups, and I always feel a bit envious of those and finding someone else who's in the same boat, it just gives you that sense of you're not alone within this. 

[00:02:25] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah.

[00:02:26] Hannah P Fryer: Like a little coworker down the road. 

[00:02:27] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:28] Hannah P Fryer: We did do a co-working day as well, which was nice. 

[00:02:30] Shara Curlett: We did. And I don't know about you, but I felt like, it was a very unproductive time. Ha.

[00:02:35] Hannah P Fryer: I did manage to do a few scribbles, I think, but it was productive because it's like we are just putting all our coworker time in one block. 

[00:02:43] Shara Curlett: Exactly. 

[00:02:44] Hannah P Fryer: Meeting by the water cooler stuff. In a very concentrated moment. 

[00:02:48] Shara Curlett: So, you are the author of OGG, this wonderful book. And I just can't get enough of the illustrations. They are absolutely stunning. What astounded me most of all is that you said this was all traditionally drawn?

[00:03:03] Hannah P Fryer: Yes. Well, I did go in afterwards and digitally fix up stuff and add things, but yeah, it was all done with gouache and pencil, which was crazy. I look back and I'm like, wow, that took a long, long, long time. And the book I'm working on now. I am not doing it all traditional. I'm trying to mix it up a bit more. But yeah, it was all with gouache and coloured pencils. 

[00:03:26] Shara Curlett: Oh, it's amazing. It's so precise and the illustrations are absolutely stunning. So congratulations on an incredible debut. 

[00:03:34] Hannah P Fryer: Thank you. And you too.

[00:03:35] Shara Curlett: Oh, Thank you. What I would love to know is how did you first get into this? You were one of those unicorns, the illustrator and author, and which came first? How did you get into the industry? I'd love to hear all about that. 

[00:03:49] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, well actually being an illustrator is how I got my foot in the door. It's quite helpful I think being an illustrator as well as a writer. I had just finished my illustration degree over in Melbourne and I was heavily pregnant. I saw a call out on the Scholastic Australia Instagram page for illustrators to send through their portfolio. I was feeling a bit bruised 'cause I think I'd already sent my portfolio off to a agency in the UK and they came back being like, basically, you're not good enough. I can't remember, I can't remember the exact words they used, but it was something like, you're not up to our standard. Have a look at the illustrators in our portfolios to see what our standard is.

[00:04:32] Hannah P Fryer: So I was thinking, when I sent my portfolio, which was the same portfolio through to Scholastic Australia, I thought, I'm no way gonna hear back. And then I think it was the week I had my son, I was freshly postpartum, and I had an email back from Scholastic Australia and she just said we got your portfolio we really love it, especially the gorillas. I had lots of gorillas in my portfolio at the time. I still really like gorillas. I just think they're inherently funny. I was pretty excited about that, but obviously I just had a baby.

[00:04:59] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:04:59] Hannah P Fryer: I wasn't really thinking about things too much, but I had a book that I had started writing when I was at uni about gorillas, and I ended up finishing that and sending that through to her when Billy was a baby, but it just didn't go anywhere. Oh, I forgot to say cause she had asked me if I write as well after I sent through my portfolio. The only reason I think she might've said that is I put some of my little poems in the portfolio that I'd then illustrated. 

[00:05:26] Shara Curlett: Oh, yes. 

[00:05:26] Hannah P Fryer: I think that's why I've never actually asked her. I should.

[00:05:29] Shara Curlett: Those are on your Instagram page, aren't they? 

[00:05:31] Hannah P Fryer: Some of my little poems are, yeah. I like doing limericks, I like doing little poems. Yeah, that's when I ended up sending the gorilla story through, but it didn't go anywhere. And then she said send through any ideas you have. She's amazing. Like, so supportive. Now I know more about the industry, I look back and I'm like, wow, I really lucked out. But I sent her through some ideas and OGG was also an idea that I had when I was at uni. We had to create a character based off of something about our identity.

[00:05:59] Shara Curlett: Ah, I didn't know this.

[00:06:02] Hannah P Fryer: Because I had moved in lots of different countries in the world and I'm Welsh, I live in New Zealand. I lived in Canada for a bit when I was little. And I figured they're all like little brother countries, you know? Wales would hate to be turned little brother to England, but it's like the next door neighbours that are a smaller country to a quite a big, loud neighbour. So Canada to America, New Zealand to Australia, Wales to England. So I kind of wanted this little brother character. And the little brother character, his big brother's Merlin. Like everybody, if you're thinking about wizards, the top dog wizard.

[00:06:36] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:06:36] Hannah P Fryer: Is Merlin, so I was like, the idea was that OGG's the little brother to Merlin, who just doesn't feel like he measures up, but actually he measures up in the most important ways. And back from Scholastic was like, yep, I like that. Go with that idea. So that's when I wrote OGG. I originally envisaged them as like old man wizards. 

[00:06:58] Shara Curlett: Oh really?

[00:06:58] Hannah P Fryer: You know, big grey beards and everything. But she was like, no, they need to be children. So I went with that. And I wrote it and I sent it and it went through to acquisitions and I got the deal, which was amazing, but by this time, COVID had happened and everything, and I had moved back to New Zealand. So, I think when I had started everything, I was in Australia, but by the end of it I was in New Zealand. Yeah. That's how OGG came about. 

[00:07:27] Shara Curlett: Wow. I love that because from looking at it face on you would say, okay, it's about this and this, but actually there's more depth behind that. And I love that OGG is actually the little brother, because I feel like so many children could relate to that.

[00:07:41] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah I mean, I'm actually an older sister, not a little sibling. 

[00:07:44] Shara Curlett: Oh, wow.

[00:07:45] Hannah P Fryer: But I do relate, I think a lot of creative people relate to that feeling of inadequacy. Or not feeling like you are quite, like, you see these giants in the field and you're like, ugh, I wanna be like them. But I don't know. That's not me. The self-doubt and the imposter syndrome and that feeling of vulnerability, I think it's, a lot of creatives have it, but I think a lot of children have it as well. 

[00:08:07] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Absolutely. You said you did this traditionally for your first book.

[00:08:12] Hannah P Fryer: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:12] Shara Curlett: So how long did it all take you? 

[00:08:15] Hannah P Fryer: From the deal to it coming out was ages. 'cause I got the deal at the end of 2021. And I think it was originally set to come out 2024, but it didn't end up coming out till 2025. But doing the artwork, I think it probably took me about a year to do the artwork. But I was working part-time at the same time and obviously Billy was growing up through all of this.

[00:08:36] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:08:37] Hannah P Fryer: It took me about a year for just the illustrations. 

[00:08:39] Shara Curlett: Wow. And having the patience to sign the deal in 21, was it? 

[00:08:45] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. Yeah 2021.

[00:08:46] Shara Curlett: That's what, four years?

[00:08:48] Hannah P Fryer: Three and a bit maybe years. But I was very busy. I really did want it to come out, but to be honest, I hadn't really thought about it. I wanted it to be my career and my job. But I guess I didn't have that focus and that push towards it. I wasn't doing a huge amount of writing and I was pretty busy. I was working and we were going through a lot of stuff trying to have another child at the time.

[00:09:11] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:09:11] Hannah P Fryer: So, it kind of went from deal to publication way quicker than you think it would. 

[00:09:16] Shara Curlett: Wow. You mentioned that this is what you studied at university. What was your degree?

[00:09:23] Hannah P Fryer: Straight out of high school, I did a degree in history 'cause I'm obsessed with history. To a point where it's quite a problem. If I can't sleep at night, I will literally just, and this is the nerdiest thing ever, but if I can't sleep at night, I'll just list all the kings and queens of England from like William the Conqueror on. 'cause I will eventually fall asleep sometime between William the Conquerer and Charles III, I guess. And if I'm feeling really nerdy, I will sometimes do their wives as well. I'll list their wives.

[00:09:52] Hannah P Fryer: So I did a history degree. Worked in advertising for a bit, was not for me at all. It was good experience, but I was like, ooh. I remember they used to have a meeting every week where they'd like clap people who'd been there for a long time, if they'd been there for like five years, ten years, and I would literally have a panic attack.

[00:10:10] Shara Curlett: Oh gosh.

[00:10:11] Hannah P Fryer: At the thought of just being there for that long. Not bagging out the place, there's nothing wrong with it, just really not for me. 

[00:10:17] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:10:18] Hannah P Fryer: So then I decided to study illustration in Melbourne. I'd always wanted to do children's books, always wanted to illustrate, always wanted to draw, always wanted to write, but never kind of could admit that to myself.

[00:10:29] Shara Curlett: Wow. And it's a talent within your family, isn't it?

[00:10:31] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. My sister is an amazing painter.

[00:10:34] Shara Curlett: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:34] Hannah P Fryer: My mom is really talented creatively. My nan was really amazing. She did fashion design. I think she went to St. Martin's in London to do fashion design in the sixties. 

[00:10:44] Shara Curlett: Wow.

[00:10:45] Hannah P Fryer: Late fifties, early sixties. And my aunt's an artist. We all have 

[00:10:49] Shara Curlett: Wow. 

[00:10:50] Hannah P Fryer: Art bug. Yeah.

[00:10:51] Shara Curlett: And how much of nature versus nurture do you think that is? Did your parents draw or your, did your mom draw with you as kids?

[00:10:57] Hannah P Fryer: She did. It's something I've actually been thinking about a lot [00:11:00] because my son is really into art and he's so incredibly creative and obviously, I provide probably a lot more opportunities for drawing but there is definitely something within him that propels him to do it.

[00:11:13] Shara Curlett: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:14] Hannah P Fryer: I think there's probably a combination of things. Maybe it's like a switch, that they have in them and in the right environment it gets switched on, but they've always had that switch. 

[00:11:24] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:11:25] Hannah P Fryer: It's something I've been thinking about a lot with my son 'cause yeah, he can draw for hours.

[00:11:28] Shara Curlett: Yeah. My children are the same. I have an older girl, she's eight, and my son is five. And I'm always interested in the dynamic between whether it's the daughter first or the son first, and how that influences a younger child. All I see in my son is he can sit for hours and draw and do all these things that I see other kids his age, they can't do. Because they need to move, right? They're all fidgety and they need to get out and do some action and running. Yet he has developed so much just from that practice because he's seen his sister do it. But it's so interesting to me that your son, he's a first child, so he hasn't had that influence, right? It's like you said, there's something within him.

[00:12:10] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. It's funny, I've been thinking about that as well. Because my son is six and my daughter is two. Actually, what's interesting about OGG was, so I got the first email from Scholastic the week I had Billy. And it was actually the week I had Maeve that I handed in all that.

[00:12:27] Shara Curlett: Oh wow.

[00:12:28] Hannah P Fryer: Full circle moment. But the only difference I can see with having a boy first and a girl second, is she will not wear a dress. She does not see the point. And I, like I've never bought her one. Or maybe I've bought her one, but she gets given so many from other people.

[00:12:46] Shara Curlett: Mm.

[00:12:46] Hannah P Fryer: She won't wear a single one, but I actually, she's so active that I'm like, that's fair. 

[00:12:50] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:12:51] Hannah P Fryer: Like you can't climb a house in a dress. So.

[00:12:54] Shara Curlett: Yeah. A flip on that is my daughter won't wear dresses either. So.

[00:12:58] Hannah P Fryer: See, that's the thing. I do think with children that they are who they are. And there's not a whole heap you can do to change them. You can help them to grow in certain areas, but I don't think you can change who they are and I don't think you should want to. 

[00:13:12] Shara Curlett: Yeah. And how do you think it reflects though, in what we allow them to do? Right? So you and I have similar views on devices and the fact that they should be using pen and paper and minimal screen time because then creativity stems from boredom, right? So how do you see that influencing children?

[00:13:33] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, I'm pretty old school on it. I do allow them to have some TV time. We've actually just started getting DVDs again, going to the op shops and getting DVDs so they can actually physically choose. 

[00:13:44] Shara Curlett: Oh, I love that. Yeah. 

[00:13:46] Hannah P Fryer: It's so overwhelming. You open Netflix and I refuse to sit there and let them be like, no, not that one. No, not that one. No, not that one. Because who has the time for it? But also it's just too much. Yeah. It's too much choice for them. And I agree that I think boredom's so important for children.

[00:14:02] Shara Curlett: Mm.

[00:14:02] Hannah P Fryer: To find new creative outlets and to do all the amazing things their brains are made to do. I read Tolkien's biography last year, and I mean, obviously not every child is gonna be doing this but he invented his own language when he was bored as a child. And I read C.S. Lewis's biography as well. Him and his brother came up with Boxland, this like land with talking animals, obviously influenced Narnia later. 

[00:14:29] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:14:29] Hannah P Fryer: But these are all things that if they were stuck on a device, would they have done that?

[00:14:35] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:14:36] Hannah P Fryer: Would there be a Narnia? Would there be a Middle Earth? Who knows? I mean, those people could be so exceptional anyway, they'd be exceptional in whatever place they're put. But I do think there's so much value in being bored and coming up with ideas, and we've kind of stopped children from experiencing that boredom.

[00:14:56] Shara Curlett: And it's all avoiding that uncomfortable feeling, right? Your kids get upset, you don't want them to be upset. I feel this myself. When my child's upset, I feel it deep in my heart.

[00:15:06] Hannah P Fryer: Oh yeah. I think that's your maternal instinct, right? You immediately want to sort things out for them. But I think the more you put the devices in front of them as well, the harder it almost becomes long term, because they do lose that ability to go, okay, well i'll get pens and paper. A few times actually my son said to me in the school holidays, 'cause he wasn't in any school holiday programs and he was going, I'm bored. And I would just be like, well, there's paper and pencils right there.

[00:15:32] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:15:33] Hannah P Fryer: This probably sounds quite mean. 

[00:15:35] Shara Curlett: Oh, no, no.

[00:15:36] Hannah P Fryer: I could show some stuff he created with the pens and paper, like he, wrote stories and he drew pictures and he made calendars all things that if he'd have just been stuck in front of a screen, I don't think he would do.

[00:15:48] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:15:48] Hannah P Fryer: And it's not, I'm not saying there's no value in TV or movies 'cause those are stories as well. And I think stories are so important for humans. 

[00:15:55] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:15:56] Hannah P Fryer: And I do think movies are one way to tell a story or a good TV program is another good way to tell a story. There's a lot of what they're exposed to on YouTube that are not stories, they're just endless colors. I was thinking about it the other day, like we are so good at knowing our children need food and feeding our children and feeding their bodies. But we also have to think about feeding their minds. And I think the way you feed minds is through books and stories and creativity and you can see it. I can see it in my son. Like we are reading Percy Jackson at the moment. Well, I'm reading to him. And you can see it's just filling his brain with the stories and the imagination. Then he'll come home from school and he's drawn a monster in the sea with all the tentacles and stuff. And that came from reading Percy Jackson. 

[00:16:47] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:16:48] Hannah P Fryer: Or Cyclops. And that came from that. And those are the ways I can tell he's been fed. 

[00:16:54] Shara Curlett: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:16:55] Hannah P Fryer: His brain's been, his imagination's been fed.

[00:16:57] Shara Curlett: I absolutely love that. And it's so true, like we're so innately focused on the fuel for their body, but yeah, they do need that fuel for their mind, the ability to form those neural connections that actually see them through their life.

[00:17:10] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah.

[00:17:10] Shara Curlett: I mean, we are storytelling apes, right? Our foundation is story, so it makes sense that that's how we've developed and children crave that. This is what I've been thinking on a lot lately with YouTube and that side of things. Because like you said, there's no story arc, right? So, there's no fulfillment in what they watch. Yes, it is a dopamine hit, but there is no conclusion for their brains. There's no wrap up, there's no arc. There's no. 

[00:17:38] Hannah P Fryer: Nutrient. 

[00:17:39] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. Yes nutrient. And so it's like just eating junk food all the time. But also I think like kids, they don't know what they want, but they do want that full cycle of a story. My children are really into, 'cause we have, ah, "The Lizard" that we got a little while ago for my daughter, the lizard that has proven very hard work. It's a bearded dragon. And I had never accepted YouTube in my house before. I would never let my children watch it. I said, you have to watch a show, or whatever on the tv. And my daughter asked me, can I watch something on Bearded Dragons to learn about them? And so I allowed her to watch a few videos on YouTube. And then suddenly we are in this situation where her first choice now is there's this channel called Snake Discovery, and it's basically people who raise snakes and that kind of thing. And I'm kind of okay with it because I feel like the nonfiction side of things, actual factual stuff, like she's learning to create habitats. She wants to be a vet. I feel like this kind of stuff is good. She's learning. She likes it. I think when I have a problem with it, when it's that short blast of information that gives them no fulfillment, it gives them no full circle and then it's no wonder they get upset and bored afterwards because they're left with this feeling of unfulfillment.

[00:19:08] Hannah P Fryer: Like Las Vegas, you know, gambling?

[00:19:09] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:19:10] Hannah P Fryer: You go, and there's the lights, and they don't let you know what time it is.

[00:19:14] Shara Curlett: Yes.

[00:19:14] Hannah P Fryer: It's that same sort of thing. They just wanna keep you in the loop. Yeah. And they're very clever at knowing how to do that, but we have, we've used YouTube. Similarly to watch history videos because art is not the only thing he's inherited from me. I dunno, nature or nurture. But we've been watching these national heritage in UK history videos, which are really good.

[00:19:34] Shara Curlett: Oh, amazing. Amazing.

[00:19:35] Hannah P Fryer: But they sort of give you activities as well. He's done a few from them. Like he did a mosaic tile after watching a Roman one. We watched a medieval one and told you how to make a medieval pie. So we made that. We had a whole medieval night. We made coats of arms.

[00:19:48] Shara Curlett: Oh my gosh. That's amazing. 

[00:19:49] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. That nonfiction can be a real launching pad to creativity and 

[00:19:55] Shara Curlett: Yes. Yeah.

[00:19:56] Hannah P Fryer: Like you said, your daughter making houses for lizards and habitats and stuff. Like it's hard to talk about these things these days . People think you might be coming across judgmental. But I'm not coming at it from a high and mighty position. The kids do watch tv. I just am concerned about what I'm seeing sometimes and unfettered YouTube access.

[00:20:19] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Hannah P Fryer: And rather than let children sit in their own boredom, we just stick a device in front of them. 

[00:20:25] Shara Curlett: And I think it comes across other ways as well. We're back into the school term and looking at activities after school, and I'm looking at how do I balance my children? I want them to be active after school and to get all that energy out. But at the same time, they need that space to just sit and do something quiet or let their minds rest. Because if they're constantly moving from one thing to the next, they never get to sit in that boredom. And then boredom eventually makes them very, very uncomfortable. It's a feeling they don't enjoy, right?

[00:20:56] Shara Curlett: And so, I think it's a really interesting time and I actually feel for our younger generations because you know everything's a pendulum, right? And it swings one way and then the other until it finally settles. And I feel like our younger kids at the moment are in that high pendulum swing in regards to the impact of devices, and it's gonna settle down again as everyone kind of starts pushing against it. You can see all this stuff coming through now around how it's affecting their brains. But I really feel for this core group of kids who, everyone's navigating it and no one really knows what's right or wrong. And some people are using instincts and other people are just exhausted. And it's kind of saving them. Because they don't have a community around them to help.

[00:21:41] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, I definitely agree. I feel like it's a hard time to be a kid in a lot of ways.

[00:21:47] Shara Curlett: Mm. Yeah. 

[00:21:48] Hannah P Fryer: There's so many opportunities and everything for them, but there's never been so much noise and distractions and I mean, it's hard enough for adults not to be on their phone. And like, I dunno how we expect children to have that sort of self-control that we know we don't have.

[00:22:03] Shara Curlett: Yeah. I personally don't have an addictive personality, but I have an obsessive personality, which lends itself really well to writing. So, I have Cassy Polimeni and Ree Evans Hill, I've been with them from the very beginning, we were part of a group together and Cassy would always say to me, you're so prolific. And I'm just like, I have to write it's something that I personally have to do. Like I can't not write. I imagine that's what drawing is for you, right?

[00:22:28] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. I think I'm, I have both an addictive and obsessive personality. I definitely can get addicted to things and I'm so obsessed with things. I don't just like things, I really, really, really like things. And it is like that with drawing and writing, although I do get to a point about three quarters away through a book where it starts to get really hard. I think as well, 'cause, and I don't know why I have a style that's so detailed, 'cause sometimes I'm like, look, this is just ridiculous. You're definitely doing things the hard way. You don't make things easy for yourself.

[00:23:03] Hannah P Fryer: I wish I had one of those styles, how Quentin does those, I mean, he's got so much learning behind him and that's how he's able to do that. But he does those beautiful like little drawings and they're stunning with such refined line work - refined's the wrong word. The simplicity of it, but it carries so much weight to it. I'd love to be able to be like that, but a lot of my work is literally work. It's very labour intensive. 

[00:23:29] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Yeah. But I guess you lean into that, right? Who are your influences, by the way?

[00:23:33] Hannah P Fryer: Like I do love Quentin Blake's work. I really like Sarah Ogilvie. She's done a few books with Julia Donaldson. 

[00:23:40] Shara Curlett: Oh yes.

[00:23:41] Hannah P Fryer: Love her. Like Detective Dog. One of my favorite books.

[00:23:44] Shara Curlett: Yeah. That's one of ours too.

[00:23:44] Hannah P Fryer: It's amazing. Yeah. 

[00:23:45] Shara Curlett: Yeah. And The Hospital Dog.

[00:23:47] Hannah P Fryer: Hospital Dog. Also amazing. Love Hospital Dog. Ah, there's Júlia Sardà. A lot of European ones I really, really like. Obviously, if we're going Julia Donaldson, obviously Alex Scheffler. He's just brilliant. And sometimes I think you notice how brilliant he is when you're looking back on them and you see all the little bugs he's put in. He's got little forest animals everywhere.

[00:24:09] Hannah P Fryer: I love Beatrice Alemagna, I think that's how you say her name. Another European one. I really do like a lot of what comes out of Europe. 

[00:24:16] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Have you got a dream to go to Bologna at all?

[00:24:19] Hannah P Fryer: Would love to, would love to get some spaghetti bolognese there. I would love to be published in the UK as well, 'cause I just think they do the most beautiful books. They do really stunning children's books. So that's a goal of mine as well. I just think what's coming out of there is just fantastic. That's, I guess, where my attention's been focused lately.

[00:24:39] Hannah P Fryer: And when it comes to Australasian illustrators, I really like obviously the classic Lynley Dodd, Bob Graham, Alison Lester, Briony Stewart ones I really like. Oh yeah, talking about Brionys, actually Briony May Smith. That's another UK one though. But I love her books. And talking about Smith's, Alex T. Smith as well is another really cool illustrator. There's actually loads.

[00:25:03] Shara Curlett: So many.

[00:25:05] Hannah P Fryer: So many, so many good illustrators out there. It's um, it's both inspirational and a little bit intimidating.

[00:25:11] Shara Curlett: What I'll do is I'll link all of these illustrators in the show notes and then if anyone wants to go and have a look, they can go look them up.

[00:25:18] Hannah P Fryer: That sounds great.

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[00:25:19] Shara Curlett: I just wanted to jump on quickly to give a shout-out to Bethany Loveridge, also known as Betty Love, for her new junior fiction series, Josie Mack and the MEGA Division, which is out now with Wombat Books. Josie Mack and the MEGA Division is the first in an adventurous new junior fiction series written by Bethany Loveridge with delicious illustrations by Jade Goodwin.

The FUN needs help. One night, a wombat knocks at Josie's window. Josie thinks her lifelong wish for a pet has come true. But Ursula the wombat is on an important mission for the Fellowship of Underground Nocturnals, the FUN, F-U-N.

The FUN needs human help to solve their wildlife woes. They want Josie and Ursula to join the FUN's mysterious Mega Division, which means they'll receive a mega-helpful power. Can Josie and Ursula prove they're the team the FUN is looking for? Or will joining the MEGA Division be a mega mistake? Join Josie and Ursula on their eco-warrior adventures with scrumptious, I know, again with the edible adjectives, internal illustrations, and at around 10,000 words, Josie Mack is the perfect book for five to nine-year-olds who love animals, friendships, stories, and magical adventures.

FYI, this book is like the embodiment of the childhood that Bethany dreamed of, one where she was especially chosen for some sort of secret world-saving society where she could talk to animals and get to explore and create solutions for wildlife woes.

Josie Mack and the MEGA Division is out now and will be available from your favorite local bookstore. And now back to our chat with H.P. Fryer.

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[00:26:59] Shara Curlett: And how has being a mum influenced your work, do you think? Has it at all?

[00:27:03] Hannah P Fryer: I think so. I think you are reading so many more children's books. Like I always wanted to do children's books. I'd written some before. I hadn't done anything with them, but I had written some before having Billy. Um, and I'd always be obsessed with them, but I guess it really gives you an opportunity to really dive into the craft and see what works and what doesn't work. And what kids like. And it just gives you an opportunity to read so many children's books. Like I read a chapter book to Billy every night. We read for over an hour every night. And then with my daughter, we are reading about, you know, five, six, seven picture books every day.

[00:27:37] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:27:37] Hannah P Fryer: So the amount you are putting in your own brain is so much more than you could ever do without having the children around. Like I, I don't think I'd be spending that much time on children's books every single day as I am. 'cause I'm also, you know, I read myself a lot.

[00:27:55] Shara Curlett: Mm.

[00:27:56] Hannah P Fryer: Adult books. Not like adult, adult books, but just...

[00:28:01] Shara Curlett: Do you feel like you're need to qualify that these days?

[00:28:03] Hannah P Fryer: I know, these days. Probably the spiciest books I've ever read are the Game of Thrones books. They were quite spicy. 

[00:28:08] Shara Curlett: I read them at a very young age, so my sister gifted me the first Game of Thrones book when I was fourteen. It had just come out and I've got a hard back first edition

[00:28:21] Hannah P Fryer: Oh wow. 

[00:28:22] Shara Curlett: I remember reading it. And then I got the second book when it came out, 'cause I really enjoyed it. I have no recollection of any of that stuff. Like, just zero recollection.

[00:28:31] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, it's very spicy. Ages of the characters quite concerning. I think Daenerys is like fourteen or twelve or something at the beginning. So I read it as an adult, but I had to be like, okay. This is a made up world where one year is way longer than one of our years and somebody who's fourteen must be like twenty-two because, yeah. 

[00:28:51] Shara Curlett: Was your history brain just exploding and your fiction brain's trying to remind you this is just a story like what we tell our children, right? When it's something scary, it's just a story. Someone made it up.

[00:29:01] Hannah P Fryer: Well, I do struggle with historical. So when I do read historical fiction sometimes I'm like, oh that person would've never done that. Like it's built in your mind who that person is. And obviously that's far from the truth as well, but you do do it based on the historical books you read. And sometimes you read historical fiction and you're like no. So some of it is really good. I loved Wolf Hall. Wolf Hall was amazing. But yeah, some of it I just can't cope.

[00:29:26] Shara Curlett: Yeah. And your son is an advanced listener of stories, isn't he?

[00:29:31] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah, he'll listen to basically anything. Probably listen to me read the dictionary if I felt called to, I didn't realise it actually, he was four years old and he really wanted me to read The Hobbit. We had like an illustrated Hobbit...

[00:29:46] Shara Curlett: oh, wow.

[00:29:47] Hannah P Fryer: ...in the house. And he was desperate for me to read The Hobbit. And I kept saying, no, no, maybe later. And then one day I was like, okay, I'll just give it a go thinking we'd give up after like a chapter or two. But he just sat and listened to the whole thing and he loved it.

[00:30:00] Hannah P Fryer: And I'm sure there was so many words he didn't understand and things he didn't understand. But I guess this was a little lesson to me that even if they can't understand a lot of it. They can pick up the story and good stories are good stories.

[00:30:13] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:30:14] Hannah P Fryer: And they just sort of hop into them. We read for an hour a night he's like another page. Another page. But it's like sometimes when it's a book I haven't read as well, I'll just keep reading. I wanna know what's going on.

[00:30:26] Shara Curlett: I remember reading Polly and Buster by Sally Rippin. to my daughter. I think that was published by Hardie Grant and it's just such a special trio of books. I read them when she was four, I believe. And we've talked in the past about how a picture book can detach children from these things, right? And you can talk about real life stuff, but if it's with a character or an animal, or a monster, it kind of separates it from real life. And I think with the monster in Polly and Buster, it has such big feelings and I could see her connecting with that. And honestly, that book was one of the ones that she had asked to read again and again. We've read them about three times now. She loves them.

[00:31:13] Hannah P Fryer: I have to get Billy on those. Polly and Buster.

[00:31:15] Shara Curlett: Polly and Buster, Sally Rippin. She was the Australian children's laureate for the prior two years. And I just, I love her writing. And those three books are incredible. And she did the illustrations herself. That's an added little, there you go. And so what can you share about what you're working on at the moment?

[00:31:33] Hannah P Fryer: I have a book coming out this year and like getting my second book deal was a lot harder than getting my first, I kind of wandered into my first book deal, had no idea what the industry was like. Had no idea how lucky and unicorn-like my experience was.

[00:31:46] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:31:47] Hannah P Fryer: And so then I started to pitch other books and I would get things to acquisition sometimes or I would think they were keen on it, but then it wouldn't get anywhere and it happened quite a lot. So I ended up saying this is to a New Zealand publisher, I remember saying, well, what do you want? And they said, well, we're kind of looking for a book about this and a book about that. So I just went away and I came up with books about this and that, but I thought in my head, there's no way they're gonna go for these ones. They haven't got any of my other ones 'cause I think I struggle with making things commercial.

[00:32:16] Shara Curlett: Mm.

[00:32:16] Hannah P Fryer: And so I wrote these ones and the one that they really, really loved was about death. And I thought there's no way they're gonna pick up this book about death, that's so not commercial, but I sent them three manuscripts and they loved them all.

[00:32:30] Shara Curlett: Wow.

[00:32:30] Hannah P Fryer: I was never been so shocked in my life. But the main one that they put forward and that I have a contract for that's coming out later this year is the one about death, which also just goes to show you have no idea. So just write what works for you. What you think is a good story. 

[00:32:48] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:32:48] Hannah P Fryer: 'Cause you can try and predict, like, I had two manuscripts I'd sent them before that, that I was like, these are so commercial. And they were like, these are not. So I guess I don't have a sense for that at all. I just have to write what I like in a story.

[00:33:03] Shara Curlett: Yeah. And I wonder how much of that comes down to if it's something you enjoy, you put something extra special into it, there's some kind of magic that comes out when you actually write what you want to read, right?

[00:33:17] Hannah P Fryer: Yes. And there are two types of stories for me. There are the types of stories I have to force, I have to sit down and, they can come out I think as a good story. It still can work out, but I just have to really push and there are the types of stories that I think of it in one night. I write it in like a day and make minimal changes. I mean, obviously I do go through three, four, five different drafts.

[00:33:40] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:33:40] Hannah P Fryer: Because that's the person I am. But it comes so easily and so uniquely and just pours out of me. And there are the two types of stories, and I actually think when you look back and read them later, I've never been able to notice that one is so much better than the other. They both come from me, but just some are just almost like they've come from somewhere else. You're just channeling it. And there are others that really do come from you and really you do have to work quite hard at. 

[00:34:02] Shara Curlett: Yeah. I was having the same kind of conversation yesterday with another author, Tina Strachan, and she was saying how she basically wanted to outline an idea and she ended up writing 11,000 words. And there's that obsessive side coming out, right? We talk about how we both have it. But she said it just poured out of her and she could not stop. And I have had that same feeling. And those, the books that I've written that I had that feeling with are the ones I've had success with. It's really fascinating. And I think it comes down to voice. 'Cause I write middle grade, and my overnight journey lasted ten years as it tends to, and I think when a character comes to you, if their voice comes straight away and it just flows out, I think that's the right story for you to write.

[00:34:54] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. It does feel almost like it comes from somewhere else. 

[00:34:58] Shara Curlett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:34:59] Hannah P Fryer: You are just kind of discovering them. Actually, going back to the biography of Tolkien, which is a really good read, I do remember. 

[00:35:04] Shara Curlett: Oh, yes. Yeah. 

[00:35:06] Hannah P Fryer: He almost felt like he was describing a history that has had happened.

[00:35:13] Shara Curlett: Wow.

[00:35:14] Hannah P Fryer: Do you know what I mean? He didn't feel like he was inventing these things necessarily all the time. He felt like he was describing. He did obviously edit things as they came, but he did have this feeling like he was describing a history of something, you know, like it came from somewhere else.

[00:35:29] Shara Curlett: And that's that whole Big Magic theory, right?

[00:35:32] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. JK Rowling, I think when she talks about writing, she talks about a similar thing where she's got a lake and a shed and the ideas come out of the lake and you fish the lake, and then you take them into the shed and that's your workshop. And some writers have loads of ideas coming out of there, but they haven't quite got the workshop bit right yet. And some writers, their workshop's all set up, they're amazing, but they can't quite get those ideas. 

[00:35:55] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:35:55] Hannah P Fryer: It's quite an interesting way of looking at it. 'Cause you get these ideas, but then you really need to work at them. You need to craft them, tool them. I probably got that all wrong as well. Who knows?

[00:36:06] Shara Curlett: I always think back to one of the first books I read on writing was On Writing by Stephen King in my early twenties. And I've always written my entire life. But actually being an author wasn't something I thought about until about 2016. I never had that concept in my head that I could be an actual author. But I just had to write, I had this really tough year and I wrote two novels and they just poured out of me and it was a cathartic experience. And then if I look back on those now, like I didn't even know how to do speech tags. Like I didn't know how to write properly, but it just came out of me. And then obviously I did a bunch of courses and I learned the craft. And it wasn't until my debut novel, Welcome to Miracle, and I had this moment where I was just like, ah, I get voice now.

[00:36:52] Shara Curlett: Like I understood voice from a logical perspective before. Your character's got to have a voice, and it's got to be their voice, but it never really clicked until I heard Juniper's voice, the main character in my book and it was just this voice that was not my own, it was hers. And she was just so easy to write. I knew who she was. And that's where that craft side comes in, right? Because I had written so many manuscripts, a couple I'd tried to pitch, and I'm not very good at handling rejections i'm just like, that's not good enough. I'm gonna shelve that and write a brand new one. So I call it revenge writing. And like Stephen King says, it's not his either, I believe it's come from a couple of other places as well, but it's like, there's a million words before you get the right kind of story. I can't remember the exact quote. I'd have to go look it up. But my twist on it is that it took me probably a million words to find my voice. And it's a really interesting thought that you can have these ideas come to you, but you're not quite ready.

[00:37:57] Hannah P Fryer: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:57] Shara Curlett: And you need to really get those words out to get ready. Right?

[00:38:02] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. I definitely see that. It's funny that you say about not thinking about being an author. 'cause I kind of was the same. I've always written and I've always done stories, always did little poems, funny ones. Like write stories about someone called Mrs. Banana Barrier a lot when I was kid, I would write limericks a lot and little songs and silly songs that I'd make up for my friends. But I never thought, oh, you could be an author. 

[00:38:28] Shara Curlett: Yeah. 

[00:38:29] Hannah P Fryer: Just, for me, I always felt like that was quite audacious for me to be one. There's no reason I shouldn't have had any confidence in myself, but I didn't. And I think the good thing for me was that I had illustration as a way to sort of back myself in a way. To help me tell stories. I do admire people who've known all their life that that's just what they wanna do.

[00:38:50] Shara Curlett: Mm.

[00:38:50] Hannah P Fryer: And they are single-minded in it. And they you know, practice every day and they do it amazingly from childhood. I really admire those people, and I [00:39:00] wish I'd been like that. I wish I had backed myself from a like a young age. 

[00:39:03] Shara Curlett: It's kind of like sliding doors right, though? So you could have chosen that path earlier. However, would you be where you are today?

[00:39:11] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. And I guess you need life to happen to you as well to tell us some stories. 'cause there are some experiences if you haven't had yet, it's probably quite hard to write about, you know?

[00:39:20] Shara Curlett: Yeah.

[00:39:21] Hannah P Fryer: And like anxiety and betrayal and all those things. There's a lot of life that needs to happen, I think.

[00:39:26] Shara Curlett: Mm-hmm. Well, this has been an absolutely amazing conversation with you. Thank you so much for coming onto the KidLit Pod. You are one of our very first guests and I wouldn't have it any other way. So where can people find you? Are you on Instagram? Do you have a website? 

[00:39:43] Hannah P Fryer: I am on Instagram and I do have a website. But thanks for having me as well. It's been really fun. My Instagram is (@hpfryer) and my website is www.hpfryer.com. 

[00:39:55] Hannah P Fryer: I need to update it, I think, a lot of old artwork on there.

[00:39:59] Shara Curlett: And you need to, go and see Hannah's Instagram page 'cause she has some. Incredible drawings over there.

[00:40:05] Hannah P Fryer: Thank you. 

[00:40:05] Shara Curlett: Can't wait to see your next book come out. I can't wait to see the cover reveal. I've had a few little glimpses at your drawings over your shoulder and it's just gonna be another stunning, stunning picture book. So, maybe we'll have you back on the show after it comes out, hey?

[00:40:19] Hannah P Fryer: Yeah. Yes, I can talk about death.

[00:40:23] Shara Curlett: Awesome. Thank you Hannah. 

[00:40:25] Shara Curlett: Awesome. Thanks so much.

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[00:40:26] Thanks for listening. I always love chatting with Hannah. She's so insightful and she comes out with absolute gems, like nourishing a child's mind as much as their body. If you'd like to learn more about Hannah, you can visit the show notes where we have a link to her website and her Instagram page. And if you'd like to learn more about me, you can go to sharacurlett.com or you can find me on Instagram at @sharacurlett.​