Wilder Heart
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Wilder Heart
Ep. 4 - Chris Perugini
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We sit down with Chris Perugini, a good friend and whiskey writer for Forbes magazine. We talk about our Montana adventures and our passions for whiskey.
Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the podcast. Today, or this week rather, I'm joined by my good friend Chris, as many of you may know him as uh Single Malt Savvy on Instagram. We have been having a absolutely lovely, lovely week here in Montana. It's been, well, a little rainy at first, we'll get into that, but it's cleared up. We had a beautiful hike today. It's been awesome. And uh Chris, glad to have you on board.
SPEAKER_00Nate, it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. And uh yeah, we have we have really had the uh the full experience this week, haven't we?
SPEAKER_02Oh yes, absolutely. We picked Chris up at the airport, threw him in the back of the truck, well, the front of the truck because we're we're kind gentlemen, uh, with a bunch of tents and provisions, and we just decided to play a random game of find the campsite, and find one we did. We did, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I uh I was um I was really surprised at how quickly we we found something. We we went to uh an original campsite um and that one just was completely full. And when we ended up getting to the second campsite, I just had this feeling that it was gonna be the one for us. It was right along the river, and I knew that I knew there was gonna be something. We ended up finding the perfect, perfect spot for that first night.
SPEAKER_02It was quite nice. However, as uh nature likes to do, we had quite the light show, uh, and not the northern lights variety, the very flashy electrical ones. Uh yeah, it was uh it was a night of of less sleep and more waking up to jolts of thunder and just flashing lights for hours on end.
SPEAKER_00I I think technically they were facing north. Were they northern lights in a in a way?
SPEAKER_02I uh I don't know actually the direction, but there were they were everywhere, so there were some were definitely north, north flashing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, we um we ended up having a um you know a really, really nice, easy uh first night. Ended up doing a little bit of grilling, got ourselves settled in, and after that first flash of thunder, or flash of lightning rather, it was probably what 15 minutes before it was a full-on downpour. We had to like scatter immediately into our tents. It was it was crazy how fast it happened.
SPEAKER_02We had our first fire of the month. We've had, you know, uh two episodes prior to this, and we didn't have any campfires. And we we only got to really after after uh grilling our absolutely delicious brats, my goodness, I don't have dreams about those. Uh yeah, it just immediately we were just like, oh, there's a drop of rain. There's another one. I think yeah, I think it was it was maybe 15 minutes, but at least the fire was uh completely out. We didn't have to worry about burning down anything.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep, yep. Fire um fire fire damage fire risk was very low that day, to say the least.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, after that, uh running on probably six hours of sleep total between the two of us. I mean, I think I got maybe four. Uh we decided to head into Yellowstone. Your your request was one of your requests was that you wanted to see Old Faithful erupt. I didn't. Uh on top of that, obviously we're not just gonna sit and and and wait for that for hours. So we decided to go explore Yellowstone. What were your thoughts of seeing that really beautiful park for the first time?
SPEAKER_00Um, I went into the Yellowstone experience. I I purposely did not look anything up. Um, I didn't really want to know anything that I was getting myself into, and I'm really glad that that I ended up not doing any research on it ahead of time. Aside from Old Faithful, and I knew obviously what it was. I didn't even look up what it looked like, what the area around it looked like, and I I was just in complete awe the entire day. Some of the things that we saw felt completely otherworldly. Absolutely. Like it's it's it's hard to believe some of the things that we saw with our own eyes are actually on this earth right now, and and um I think it was just a really good dose of perspective to just realize that just a little bit of exploration of our own home, our own country, in fact, can can show just a completely different side of um what our terrain can give us, uh just the absolute beauty of nature in a completely different way. It was it was awe-inspiring and uh well worth the visit.
SPEAKER_02Uh I mean, America is just so diverse in its landscapes and people forget it, you know. If you spend your time just traveling city to city and and not really, you know, driving or exploring the countryside, you don't you might not fully comprehend what this country contains and how spectacular it truly is. Um, you know, people will be like, oh, I have to go to Europe to see Europe. But when you get to some of the national parks or even national forests and you explore them, the the difference between them is just staggering. I mean, there's so many different types of nature and landscape and rock formations, and Yellowstone being absolutely massive. Uh, you know, in one day we hit basically every kind of natural uh setting other than an ocean.
SPEAKER_00Pretty much, pretty much. Uh and I think it's it's also really interesting to see how that terrain can change. Just in a short period of what, 50 miles? We were driving around earlier today. We saw so many different kinds of natural beauty, um, from all of these contrasting greens to multiple mountainous backdrops, and it was all within like an hour drive. It was it's just incredible. And I think being in a place like where we are today, it kind of forces you to be a little bit more mindful of your surroundings and and really not take it for granted.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, one of the big things that I want to do with this podcast is inspire people to go out and experience new things and you know, find adventure, uh, whether it be in your home state or a state elsewhere. But I mean, I think we we did uh we had a really good time doing that on this trip so far. I mean, it's still going. We're not done yet.
SPEAKER_00One of the other really cool things about the last couple of days, especially, is that we really embraced all of the interesting twists and turns that the trip threw at us. Um we talked about the rain. We talked about the rain a little bit, but um that wasn't the only thing that didn't quite go according to plan.
SPEAKER_02Uh well, the thing was, uh what I really looked forward to about this trip is when when we had a call uh a couple weeks back before you came out, and you're like, I don't know, what are we gonna do? I was like, what do you want to do? And you're like, I just kind of want to wing it. And I was like, great, that's perfect for me. I hate planning. So spontaneity was was the the key. And uh so even just just last night, we were like, oh, here's a uh here's a peak that we can summit with 2,000 feet of vert, and uh it's about you know, was it four and a half miles around there? Yeah, we're just gonna try that. Uh we got there this morning, and trying that was not an option. No, no, it was not an option.
SPEAKER_00Uh we we would not be here to tell the tale had we attempted it.
SPEAKER_02We'd still be up there. Uh it was completely socked in with clouds, definitely snowing up there. The road to the mountain itself, like was two and a half miles away, was closed, gated off. So we'd have to do that. And then we did not have any proper winter gear. We had our basic pants, shirts, you know, basic survival, no gloves, no hats, no snowshoe. It was just there was absolutely no way, which was kind of a kind of a kick in the nuts because you're like, oh man, I was looking forward to this for 12 hours.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, well, and the um I I think what really sealed the deal for us is when the um the two guys in the next car got out and they got their ski gear out. Yes, and we said gear. This is probably not the day for us to make this uh to try and make this summit.
SPEAKER_02No, but we made the best of it. We pivoted, which is just turning into the word of this podcast. Uh definitely the catch catch a catchphrase, but a catch word. Uh it's it's a buzzword. Yeah, buzzword. There we go. Thank you. Uh and yeah, so we just decided to do a little basic several mile hike that was absolutely gorgeous, that that just overlooked that mountain range that we wanted to climb and just had a grand old time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It's um and and I think the scale of the mountains here is really, really easy to understate and and really kind of underappreciate because um obviously there's a beautiful backdrop sitting right behind us, but on the other side of where we're staying, we can actually see those mountains. And that was what, like a over an hour drive easily. Yeah, from here I think it was like about 48 minutes, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. Um, and just the fact that we can we can physically see exactly where we were going to attempt to go, uh, and and still very snowy as of as of a few minutes ago when we checked.
SPEAKER_02There may be an episode in the future where we do tackle that summit because I mean the views from there, the pictures we saw just looked absolutely amazing. So it's 100% on my bucket list, and and we'll hopefully get Chris out again to to tackle that adventure another time. Everybody loves a good redemption story. So, Chris, uh, I've been doing my best to not ruin the surprise. But you've been very excited to pour some whiskey for me that I have been like a kid at Christmas just avoiding. I'm not looking. I don't want to, I don't want to see it. So let's get one of those going.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, I actually brought I brought four things. Um and I worked really hard to um A, try and bring bottles or samples that I knew could easily fit in my bag. I didn't want to obviously pack stuff and then have to bring home half full bottles. Um, and I also tried really hard to find stuff that I was pretty confident Nate has never tried before. Um and if he has, he's gonna be very happy to revisit them. But um if if I were a betting man, I'm gonna guess that he has not tried either of the uh either of the things that we had. So you didn't bring me the general?
SPEAKER_02Uh okay.
SPEAKER_00I I had to bring it up. I I I laughed because the general did pop into my head and I was like, is this the is this the moment? Is this the moment? And now we gotta summit that mountain first. I'll tell you what. Right now, we summit that mountain. What? The general's happening.
SPEAKER_02Okay, guys, uh, I'm gonna have to cut real quick. We're gonna uh we're gonna go die. I don't know if if if any of our listeners have, but it one of the things, I mean, Chris and I have bonded for years, but one of the things we bonded over is the general from Compass Box is probably the best blended, not not probably any screen. Oh, it is the best, it is the best blended scotch whiskey I've ever had in my life, and he has a bottle of it sealed at home. And we walked into his quite large stash of whiskey, and that was the first- I went, you have the general. And so, of course, ever since then I've been I've been hounding him like, yeah, you opened that yet? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you opened that yet?
SPEAKER_00I I I feel like that there is app there is no better occasion to pop that sucker than when we get to the top. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, this there may be an episode with Chris uh very soon. Flop you out in bugging. What are you doing in three weeks?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Your wife's gonna kill me. Um but um I promise what I what I did bring, still nothing to shake a stick at, so let me um let me let me go. I'll take your mic for a second. Thank you. I'll hold it for you. Yeah. Gonna get my glassware out first.
SPEAKER_02And now we test Chris's true skill. Can he pour in a slightly stiff breeze?
SPEAKER_00So you can. Yep. So the uh the first thing that I decided to bring, uh, and and I actually told Nate before we started that I was gonna make a game time decision because I've got two things here that are both really fun, really interesting. I probably should be pouring this one second, but my heart is telling me to pour it first, so it's gonna happen. What's your liver say? My liver says drink more water. Um, but that's that's another story. I'd rather be a good liver than have one. There you go. Um so I brought a I brought a small but mighty sample of uh Taliscar 45-year-old. This is uh their Glacial Edge. Um, and this is the third edition in uh the series. They've been working with uh Parley for the Oceans, which is a uh they're doing some really good work in terms of ocean conservation, uh cleaning up the oceans, getting plastics out, and things like that. Um this is the third release. They did a 43 and a 44. This is the 45 year. I have tried the 43 and 44. I absolutely love them, and I thought, what better time to try the 45 year than right here, right now? So you haven't had this yet. I have not had this.
SPEAKER_02I I have not had any of these. In fact, I didn't even know about this this release. So uh this and I I love Talascar special releases. Yes, and so I'm very excited for this.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I I've been very blessed uh over the last couple years, especially to get access to some incredibly, incredibly well-aged Taliskers, and they are doing them beautifully. Um the 44-year was, I think, one of my favorites of the year last year. Wow. Um and I know that like older isn't always better, and I've had plenty of stuff that's you know 40, 50 years old that is definitely like past that point where it's overoaked. These have always just been right on the money, so shall we? Yeah. That's the oldest thing here right now, other than the mountains. It is, it is.
SPEAKER_02Uh, can you oh oh wait, oh wait till you pour it. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I just wanted to, before I sip it, learn some more of the geeky details of the I will I will I will give you those details uh in just a moment. What we have here is a Taliscar that has been aged for for 45 years. Please, please. And uh um I don't remember the exact terminology they used. Okay, they are calling them ice fractured casks. So what they did was they took some uh they took some barrels, they literally brought them to the Arctic, took the heads off of them, and just let them sit on a glacial plane for uh some short period of time, and it like literally like internally fractured the wood in a way that I guess isn't hasn't been done before. I don't know if there's you know a lot of actual like technical outcome from that, but it's still still kind of a cool story. Um and then they use those casks as for a short finishing period.
SPEAKER_02So did they just have to recooper the barrels?
SPEAKER_00I mean, they so no so so the actual f uh promotional photos that I saw showed them uh like uh like still bound and hooped, just with the heads off and then just exposed to the open air. It was it I mean it was a a stunning visual, obviously. It's a stunning visual.
SPEAKER_02I just don't understand how if it did fracture, you'd have to put those back together with the first data.
SPEAKER_00I think the fractures that they're talking about is almost more like microfractures on the wood itself. So it becomes almost a little more porous. Yeah, yep, exactly. Interesting.
SPEAKER_02I love that kind of stuff. Yeah. And uh what were the casks that this was aged in prior? Is it more?
SPEAKER_00I believe this was all all ex bourbon.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say, because I still get the distinct smoky note that I don't normally get from an older whiskey of uh like like this, unless it is something like an X-Bourbon cask, which will let that come through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think for obviously something of this age, I'm guessing second or maybe third fill casks because otherwise. Smoke is right there on the notes. Yeah, yeah. And what's the proof on this? Or I'm sorry, the uh ABV. Uh the My bad. That's good. We're talking we're talking Scotch here. Talking Scotch. Um this is 49.8% ABV at 45 years old. That's amazing. That really is, I know.
SPEAKER_02And do you know off the top of your head how many barrels were using this batch by chance?
SPEAKER_00Um I know the I know that the finishing casks, I believe there were fewer than twenty, so it's it's a it's a it's a it was a pretty small release, and I mean how much 45-year-old Talisker was going to remain anyway, after that much time. So um Hey, thanks for having me on. Oh, dude.
SPEAKER_02Cheers. I'm getting obviously s the smoke, a little bit of that that salty maritime smell that you get from Taliscar, and then just some beautiful vanilla. Talisker pepper still there in full force.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, that smells absolutely wonderful. That little hint of lemon oil. Alright, let's give this a go. Oh. Hello. Oh, that is just Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna taste that until tomorrow. Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00Having compared this now to the 44-year-old, which I think I had at the beginning of 2024, it hasn't been that long. This is uh almost right on the money. It's like it's got they've got this this whole vibe going on. Um again, 43-44 into this 45-year-old. It is a really nicely balanced whiskey for the age. And I think, and now tasting it again, or tasting this one for the first time rather, it's gotta be like third fill barrels. Umak is merely a supporting uh supporting player in this this total flavor set. Uh there is so much uh vibrance to it, and I the fact that we're getting all of those citrus notes like all the way through the finish, I think really speaks to um very careful cask selection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean I I was expecting with with X Bourbon Cast to get more, you know, if well if it was first fill, you get way more tropical fruit notes. And like you said, this is much more citrus forward, and then with that smoke, the little bit of salt, the the spice, the pepper. Oh man, and that's just that that finish won't quit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and and and one of the things that I really like about this series, and this one um is is absolutely in line with it, is that there really is no one dominant flavor set. Um, when you look at a whiskey that has a super impressive age statement on it, a lot of times you're thinking, okay, this is gonna be super oak forward, um, super fruity. And this really is like just a nice blend of so many different combinations, so many flavors. We've got the um, you know, we've got that, we've got that smoke that's present, but in no way overpowering. It's really mellowed out, obviously, over time. Oh, it's perfectly integrated. Yeah. Yep. Um, and then again, that citrus, that citrus is there, that sea salt, little little bit I the one thing that I think I would expect more from a talasker is brine, and I think that that has just obviously been mellowed out with age.
SPEAKER_02It's in the background. I I get it, I get it more um on the finish. Yeah. And a little bit, a little bit on the nose, but it's you know, 45 years, you can't you can't really expect that to be. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's if we're gonna be nitpicking. Yeah. Oh, I'm not nitpicking at all. I'm just saying, like, you know, you think talasker, you think that, like I said, maritime almost salt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I and um if if the 44 from last year was any indication, um, over time this is gonna this is really gonna open up beautifully. So let's uh let's just let it do its thing for a few. Absolutely beautiful as it is. Yep.
SPEAKER_02All right, so Chris, we've known each other for years now. Uh over over half a decade for sure. Oh, at least. At least um you know it's been a while. So let's let's let's let's talk the beginnings. What what was it that got you into whiskey, whether it was a moment or a uh a pour or a realization or all of the above?
SPEAKER_00Um it's not what, it was who. Ah, who got it into it. Um I love telling this story. Uh one of my oldest friends in the world, um, guy by the name of Joe, he actually owns a wonderful boutique uh wine and spirit shop in Washington, DC. Can I plug that? Yeah, absolutely. Um yep, so if you're ever in DC, um district champagne, tell him I sent you. He this was 2008, so we're we're going back a ways. Um I remember he was coming over for a visit, didn't tell me, he was like, hey, he he shows up at my house. He said, Hey, I brought something I think you might want to try. And this was the guy that uh exposed me to the world of craft beer at the time. Um he introduced me to the wonders of uh like really nice loose leaf tea, which I continue to drink to this day. So like he's he's my beverage vice. And so he shows up with a three-pack, those minis of Glenfit, 12, 15, 18 year. He said, I think you might like scotch. Uh let's see how it goes. So we poured little little tiny sips of all three of them, went through it, and my first impression was I don't know how I feel about this. Which I think is really, really interesting because had I given up on it right then and there, who knows if I would be here today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's funny actually, because Glenn Fittick 15, I found it just, you know, I I worked for William Grant for three years, and Glenn Fittick 15 was always the poor. I'd be like, try this. If if if you don't like this, you might Scotch might not be for you. My my brother Dave, like that was like his first experience with Scotch with Glenn Fitch 15 to this day, he still loves it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's funny, uh, of the three, uh I did like the 15 best. Yep. And so we we've we finished that experience, and uh he we had just about this much left in each of those bottles. And so as he left, he said, Hey, why don't you hang on to these? Give it a week, try it again, see how you feel about it. And something magical happened in that week. I went back to it that second time, and it all just clicked for me. Everything just popped. The flavors made so much more sense. Uh it was it was an awakening, truly. And I said, Okay, well, if I liked that, I gotta figure out what else I should get. Down the rabbit hole, you know. Down the rabbit hole I go. Now we're talking 2008. Social media is really not a thing, not especially not in the way it is now. Um, so I didn't have my favorite influencer to help guide my my choices. So, you know, went to the forums, uh, did some research online, and I remember reading the same thing over and over again. Oh, if you like Glenfit, you should try the Balvaney Doublewood. Mm-hmm. And let me tell you, that was my true light bulb moment.
SPEAKER_02I know you love your belly.
SPEAKER_00I do, I do. That was my true light bulb moment, and from that on, I knew it was just gonna be full throttle.
SPEAKER_02Yep, and that's that's when you just your wallet's gonna start really hating you. And especially like, especially nowadays, I mean shit. When we were when we were starting off, at least things were reasonably priced and yeah, and that's the thing, right?
SPEAKER_00It wasn't price prohibitive at the time. No. Even, I mean, I was I was in my mid-20s, but a bottle of Belvaney 15 year single barrel was fifty dollars. It was so cheap. And I remember when it crept up to like 65, and I was like, oh no. Um, I mean, there was a time, not that long ago, when I was buying that red red box Bacallan cask strength for $50 a bottle. Yeah. Yep. And I bought a lot of it.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you did. Yes. Yeah, it's it's it's funny. Like I still I still have uh a massive love of scotch. I don't know, it's just it's sad for me nowadays. It's just seeing all the big companies taking over, you know, cutting corners, lowering ABV, adding E150, chill filtering. I mean, I just I feel like we might I feel like we we're out of one heyday and we're kind of in the doldrums. But I think I think there's some promising distilleries over there that that could make a comeback if they survive the next few years. Who who are you, who do you let's just uh it could be three, it could be five. Who are the the up-and-coming distilleries that you're really excited about we'll start with this. I don't want to overwhelm you. We'll start with the throw it all at me. Who are the up-and-comers that you're really excited to see progress and and who you think have a real good shot of bringing back a revolution of high quality scotch and not just kind of watered down filtered nonsense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and I think that that last piece is really important because a lot of the distilleries that are coming online right now are doing exactly that. They are thinking about what an actual enthusiast consumer wants. All their releases are coming out at at least 46% ABV. Amen. Which means they're gonna be non-chill filtered, no coloring, anywhere to be seen. A lot of a lot of cast strength releases coming out like right out of the gate. They're they're doing it right. The problem, of course, is that we're in a little bit of a little bit of a shaky market right now. And um, you know, we were actually talking about this um over the last couple of days, but we've seen some some really, really great distilleries um, you know, have funding problems. And I unfortunately think that there's gonna be a lot more to come over the next 12 to 18 months. So to your point, right, if they can survive it, there are a few places that I'm really, really excited about. Um I just had a really great conversation a couple months ago with the folks from um Hollyrood Distillery, and they are right in the heart of Edinburgh, which I think is really cool because considering that that is the most popular tourist destination in Scotland, they did not have a single malt distillery for over a century, which is just mind-blowing to me. It is crazy. You know, and so you know, I'd get I get a lot of questions um about Scots from friends, family, whoever. And the one question that I hated getting is oh, I'm gonna be in Scotland in Edinburgh for a few days. Um, what distillery should I go to?
SPEAKER_02Zero.
SPEAKER_00I did not have an answer to that question for so long uh until now. And of course there are a few places that have popped up since then, but one of the things that I love about Holyrood in particular is that they are making everything. And when I say everything, I mean if you walk into that distillery and they and they ask you, oh, what what kind of whiskey do you like, if you're a peat head, they've got something for you. If you want light and fruity, they've got something for you. You want the typical Lowlander style, they've got it for you. They are doing everything and they're playing around with multiple, multiple malt types, multiple yeast strains, multiple cast types. They're doing it all. And so obviously, when you run an operation that way, it's gonna be a little bit more expensive.
SPEAKER_02Oh, of course. So um, do they plan on keeping that way where they can appeal to a mass audience and not really perhaps have like a signature style, or do they have like a signature flavor and nose profile amongst all of those different uh types?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, their signature style, um, and and they were very clear about this, is that they do not have one. Which I think is which I think is so fun. I admire that. Yeah. Yeah, so they're so they're they're one distillery that I I really hope um gets a chance to really shine. One of the distilleries that I think has gotten their footing enough that I think they'll be okay, but obviously you never know, is Ardenamerken. And I don't know if you've tried their stuff before, but they really kicked off this transparency revolution that I absolutely adore. Uh and you know, I think they just celebrated their 10th anniversary or at least like a 10 a 10-year release, their first 10-year product. Um, when I first was exposed to them, they you know had these bottles come out with a QR code, you scan that QR code, and it takes you to a mountain of production details about that batch. What were the fermentation temps and times? Who was who was running the still? What were the casks? What was the provenance? Where did they come from? I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And for most people, it's definitely information overkill. But for someone like me and you, I've I read through every last line. It was it was incredible. Uh, and you know, there was a little bit of a growing movement happening in terms of transparency. Nobody cared what was in their whiskey 30, 40 years ago. And you know, obviously we're a much more just as a consumer base in general, we're way more informed now. The internet has kind of empowered us to want to know more. Where does this come from? What's in it? And, you know, some of the distilleries like Brooklyn were kind of jumping on board, and there are a few others that were really starting to share more details, but Ardenamirkin just came in and just blew everybody out of the water. Um, so they're they're doing some really cool stuff as well. Uh and then the third distillery that uh actually we were talking about recently is um Isle of Harris distillery. Uh so if you look at the the the Hebrides, right? You've got Isla, you've got all of the islands that kind of work their way up the coast, and then there's kind of nothing. And then you keep going, and then you get to the Isle of Harris and the Isle of Lewis, and they're it looks like one island, but they're technically separated. Nobody was making whiskey up there. Uh so the guy who founded it apparently was simply somebody who loved to travel there. And so when he said I'm gonna set up shop, he picked his favorite destination. And not only is that distillery, again, doing things the right way in terms of production, but they are employing a ton of people on the island itself. That's good. Um so you know, there's this community feel to it. Everybody feels invested. Um and they're so again, they're so they have more of a signature style. It's lightly peted, but I'll tell you, it's beautifully integrated. Uh, they have a like a typical ex-burban cask release, first fill olor rosso, which sounds way heavier than it is. It's it's surprising how how subdued that is. And now they're working their way through special releases and um, you know, special finishes and stuff. So um, yeah, there's a lot of a lot of stuff to be excited about in the Scotch world. Awesome. Yeah, so so these distilleries have um it's almost sort of a blessing and a curse, right? They're they're doing things that I think are really uh consumer-friendly, again, production uh techniques that really emphasize, you know, quality over quantity. And we're seeing a really interesting parallel right now because uh a lot of the things that are happening with this new generation of Scotch distilleries are also happening in the American single mall world. So you look at a legacy producer, some of our big space-side distilleries, I don't have to name any names, you know who they are. They're gonna make their whiskey the way they've always made it because they have uh decades or sometimes centuries of tradition that they basically have to adhere to. But when you've got a new Scotch distillery or an American single malt distillery where there's absolutely no precedent, you get to do whatever you want. And that's what I love about the American Single Malt space too, is that don't have to play around with standard distillers, barley, yeast. You can do whatever you want. You want to use champagne yeast, you want to use beer yeast, you want to have a five five malt a malt bell with five different malts in it, go for it. Yep. You want to use mesquite smoke to smoke your whiskey, go for it. We get to see this incredible innovation, and it's gonna bring out flavors that we have never seen before. Oh, absolutely. So we just need them to be able to make it through the next couple years.
SPEAKER_02And I think they will. Um, but before we shift over to the American single malt, which which absolutely we're gonna be discussing because you know that's my really my my passion when it comes to a category and American spirits, um who just real briefly, um, who are the distilleries in Scotland right now that are still doing it right? Not necessarily nude, but more old school distilleries. Who are the ones, just like two or three, that are doing it right that that haven't fallen to the trap of mass consumerism and just completely changing their whiskey to to meet, like, you know, some corporate high lords' uh financial needs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and they're um that number is dwindling, unfortunately. And there have been a few distilleries that have really taken me by surprise. A few that have just like completely devastated me. Yeah, two brute. Yep, yep, exactly. Um the first one that came to mind for me is Bonahabin. Every year they continue to put out quality spirit, really good cast collection, uh, just a really good overall flavor set. And it doesn't matter whether whatever your price point is, the 12 years great. If you wanna spend a little bit more, the 18 years great. I've had the 25, I've had the 30 and the 40. There's really something for everyone, and it all kind of fits that that house style still. Um, I actually remember, I think it was 2011 or 12 when Bundhabin decided they were gonna completely revamp their production process. All their stuff was um chill-filtered, bottled at 40%, added color, and then in 2011, they just changed it all. They switched to 46.3%, no added color, non-chill-filtered, and they did it like seemingly overnight, which I think must have been a huge financial hit for them, but obviously it's paid off dividends since then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I I really enjoyed their special releases. I would say like when I started off in the Scotch uh industry, you know, 12-13 years ago, um, they weren't really like one that that you would gravitate towards, but they have definitely uh stepped their game. So I agree with that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I and I think those special releases really helped garner a cult following that that um that PX that PX finish. Uh I know and we'll call it a finish, but it's if I believe it spent an extra like 11 years in PX Cash. It was some some insane number.
SPEAKER_02It was sub 100 bucks if I remember correctly.
SPEAKER_00It was too.
SPEAKER_02It was I think I I ended up I could have bought like two more bottles. I was like, oh, someone else should have them. No, I should have been selfish.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yep. I went through a lot of those when it first came out.
SPEAKER_02So I'll bounce off that. For me, my number one is Spring Bank. I it's everybody's. I mean, let's be real. But they just won't change, and thank God for it, but it just sucks because it's so difficult. Like I remember the 15 year Springbank was the first Scotch whiskey that I fell in love with. Um, and I think I was getting it back then for like 70 bucks. Yep, maybe around there. Yeah, yep. And to this day, it's still like it still like holds a special place in my heart. I was uh I was at a bar in in Lake Placid, New York, and they used to have Whiskey Wednesdays, and they would have a bunch of different scotches, and I think it was like seven bucks a poor for whatever you wanted, like within reason. And they always had Springbank tenure, and I would just get drunk on Spring Bank tenure for seven bucks a pour, and I end up getting to know the bar the owner and bartender. So of course, like my bill would be like $28 and I'd I'd I'd stumble back to my hotel a couple blocks away. But yeah, Springbank, Springbank is probably my my number one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it you know Springbank is a a bit of an enigma for me, and I'm not talking about the quality or the actual whiskey itself, but just just from like a marketing perspective and the way that consumers have gravitated towards it. Uh, and you know, it almost has taken on the same role as like your Pappy Van Winkles or your your Buffalo Trace Antique collection bottles. It is like this statement piece now, and I cannot figure out why it happened. I know when it happened. It was like some sometime between 2022 and 2023, all of a sudden people just started going crazy for Spring Bank. I saw it everywhere. And I, you know, I see it on secondary uh sites, I see it on the internet, I see it on Reddit, I see it on social media, and I mean I would have noticed if there was like a little bit of a slow burn. It just seemingly happened overnight. I cannot figure out why. But I mean that's ever since that ever since that moment, Springbank has become so insanely hard to get. The allocation's it's it's it's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, everything goes in cycles, as you know. I mean, we went through the bourbon boom, and then there was a scotch boom, and then they screwed that up by just a lot of companies just started ruining Scotch. Uh, then you got the Irish whiskey, which was pretty quick pop because they just don't produce as much. But I mean Springbank was just the natural one that, like, you know, all of us nerds have been saying for years, Springbank is the best, and unfortunately when you say that, people start listening.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Um, I actually have there's a there's a date in my mind um that I see as the sort of inflection point, like that the bottoming out for Scotch for me, and it was 2014. And that is a couple of things happened in 2014 actually. Um the McAllen introduced their color series. Do you remember that? Yep. And to me, that was just like a swift kick in the nuts. No age statement. They basically said, here's some no-age stated whiskey, we're gonna judge it by its color alone. And that's not to say that color isn't important, but like they took everything else out of the equation but color. Yeah. And when you do something like that, it kind of gets you thinking in the back of your head, why do they want me focusing just on the color? I think it was right around that time that rare casks came out as well, which, you know, from a marketing perspective sounds great, but how rare can a cask really be? Well, you know, a couple hundred bottles. Okay, yeah, exactly. Um, so we started seeing a lot of those types of gimmicks from some of the bigger players. I saw a lot of uh special releases get discontinued. Um, the Balvani Tun 1401 was discontinued in 2014. A literal dagger through my heart. Yep. This man loves his ton series. I I do, I do, I do. Um, and then we started seeing a lot of age statements dropping too. You know, so that so 2014 kind of ushered in this like the dark times. Um it it was it was. It was it was We need a hero. We need we we really we really didn't know. Scotch Man. Um at the time Springbank must have been busy off doing something else because they were they were still doing their thing. Doing their thing. Yeah. But you know, that this was also the the period where you know it it it didn't even it didn't even mean that much. But when companies like Bal Blair and Glenn Rothis dropped their vintage statements and switched over to just like a pure core range of H-Sdata products, it just felt wrong. Yeah. For so many, I mean decades actually, with with those two companies, they had this this fun little gimmick. It's like, hey, we don't have a 12-year-old product, we're gonna put out a 1990 vintage, and then we're gonna put out a 1992 vintage a couple years later. I mean, there's something fun about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And when they when they did away with that, you just you're like, I could just smell the corporate oversight over that.
SPEAKER_02Yep, absolutely. So yeah, it's a shame, but moving on from that to American single malt. Yeah. Um, my goodness, I I've never been so excited for the category. Um, obviously, we are in and getting into a very oversaturated market, so it's gonna really be a competition between who can do what, and thankfully I I truly believe that quality is going to win over quantity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the American single malt world is, I mean, who who can't be excited about it right now? A couple months ago, they uh official the TTB officially recognized American single malt whiskey as a unique category. First time in over 50 years. Think about the monumental effort that had to go into that. And you know, I signed a lot of papers. They did. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I spoke with Steve or signature, you know.
SPEAKER_00I spoke with um Steve Hawley uh a couple days after he he got the news, and you know, the first question I asked him was like what did it take to make this happen? And he said, years and years and years of effort and waiting. You know, so they they they submitted the original proposal I want to say in 2021, maybe, expected to hear back a reply by 2022. They didn't hear anything for years. Nope. And there was nothing they could do about it, and so they had to just kind of keep marching on. Um, and so what a what a sigh of relief to to finally get that that recognition. But you know, the American Single Mall world still has a huge uphill battle.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Step one, it's still recognition. I feel I think the news of that ratification did more for just awareness of the entire category than the previous ten years of them trying to do it as a grassroots movement. So that was a huge win for them. But more importantly, I think the sales volume is still desperately lacking. There's a ton of product out there, but I mean, you go you walk into a liquor store, and this I think is gonna change as as as time goes on, but where where would you find an American single malt? I'd find it near the Scotch sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes I'd find it near the bourbon. Sometimes I'd find it in the like miscellaneous category. I'd find it next to like Japanese whiskey. Like there was no way to tell where you were gonna find it in Japanese or they've still got a huge, huge battle to to really kind of like break into the mainstream and um i you know, as a Scotch drinker, it I can I remember thinking to myself, I my my very first like aha moment was um the first time I visited Westland. Um I love those guys. Yep. They make a great product and um really fun distillery to check out too if you're ever in Seattle. But um I remember trying their trying their stuff at the distillery, but I remember seeing their flagship expression, the the American Oak, um, a couple months later when I got home and I said, they're trying to sell a two-year-old product for $79.99. Why would anyone think to pick that up when practically right next to them you can get a 12-year-old age-stated single mall from Scotland? For $45. Exactly. Um, and so I think the there's been a little bit of consolidation of efforts for from a lot of the big producers. Like Westland completely revamped their their their um flagship expression. Uh Belcones ended up doing a really good job. They've got to get those prices down. And it's starting to happen. I'm seeing it happen. But is it too little, too late? I I hope not for a lot of these producers. I really do.
SPEAKER_02I think a lot of them are making a big splash on the scene with special releases and really, really paying attention to cast selection and blending.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Westland, for example, their Gariana uh is one of my favorites, one of the releases I look forward to like the most every year. Yep. Um they're coming up on their tenth year, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Westland and then West Word is another one of my favorites. Cedar Ridge out of Iowa is making incredible stuff.
SPEAKER_00No, if you didn't mention Cedar Ridge, I was going to.
SPEAKER_02I think it's a good idea. Quintessential is probably my thing they're doing. Quintessential is probably one of my favorite single malts in the American single malt category. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And their master uh blender, Murphy Quint. Such Mad Scientist, such an awesome guy to talk to. Um, it's always a pleasure. If I have any questions about anything, I know I can just send it right over to him. He'll spit back the answers. Absolutely. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_02All right, as some of the uh more observant viewers may have noticed, we have uh changed location. It got really gusty out there, and with the gustiness on a June mon June in Montana, it gets a little chilly as well. So we decided to pivot, as we seem to do all the time, to the indoors location.
SPEAKER_00We moved inside under protest. I was ready to stick it out, uh, but we we this is probably the right move. This is for the best. Yeah, and it is you know, there's something about like Montana June. It's not really June. It's a very different kind of June. It it's and uh it it I mean it's a cool experience, but it got a little chilly out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, welcome to the mountains, my friend. This is this is how we roll. Yep. But we're gonna just dive right back into it. We just had started a discussion about American single malt, um, some of our favorite distilleries. Uh for me, you know, we started listing them off. But we'll we'll go back to you. What are what are what are your since we went over uh Scotch whiskey? What are the three distilleries, it could be five, whatever you want to do, that you're most excited to to watch uh grow in the future?
SPEAKER_00The first one, without a doubt, is Cedar Ridge. Um and I know we've already talked about them, but they are taking the concept of blending to another level. And I think it's really important because there is going to be a flood of new make American single malt uh across the country over the next 10 years, especially. And you can have tons of age doc out there, but if you can't piece those those barrels back together to make a coherent, consistent flavor profile, then it doesn't really matter. And what they're doing at Cedar Ridge is nothing short of remarkable. Every time one of their quintessential special editions comes out, it's a combination of six different barrel types and finishing periods, things that are then rebarreled and reblended. And it all kind of sounds like this mad science experiment, but it is being done deliberately and you know, with again that like end total flavor set in mind. And I think a lot of the American single malt distilleries out there should pay attention because I think blending is going to be a a real differentiator for uh some of some of these bigger producers that um can really take their their special editions, especially in a in a new direction. So um Cedar Rage is one for sure. Um I uh continue to champion Westland Distillery. I know that we've talked about them as well, but they were my first American single Malt Love. Uh I first discovered them in 2016 on that that that visit that I paid them. And coincidentally, I actually went to the distillery the week that the first edition of Garyana dropped. Like, what timing? It's just really cool to see them sort of come full circle. And again, we talked a little bit about finding ways to sort of push the envelope when it comes to production and the use of a native species of oak, Pacific Northwest oak. I mean, who would have ever thought that that would be a thing even 20 years ago? It's just such a such a breath of fresh air. Uh, and so they're they're doing a lot of great things too. And what I'm finding I I'm not gonna give you a a third example um specifically, but there are so many distilleries that are sort of hyper local making American single malt. I just think it's really interesting to see that local footprint just really kind of take to it. I mean, so I I will name one more distillery because they're they're relatively close to me in New York. Um at uh the distillery is called Ten Mile Distillery. They are as close to a in the best way possible. They are making their whiskey as close to Scotch as I've ever tried before. If you if you put their stuff up against a uh a a single mall from Scotland blind, I'm not sure you'd be able to tell which one was American and which one was Scotch.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've I've seen you I've seen you post a lot about them and and write a lot about them. I I've yet to try them, but I've I I've heard not not just from you, but I've heard many people say that their stuff is outstanding.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and a lot of it comes down to um, I think the vision of the owner and letting their master distiller, who has a lot of experience making Scotch whiskey, do what he does best. So um their head distiller is Shane Fraser. He was the uh man who was instrumental in getting Wolfburn off the ground. Before that, he was a distiller at Glen Farkless, he spent some time at a few other distilleries, clearly knows his way around a distillery, and they basically gave him the keys to the kingdom. They said, Hey, make this the way that you need to make it. So he consulted on every aspect of that distilleries, getting them off the ground. They he consulted with Forsyth, they brought in Forsyth stills. Like, so so if you're an American whiskey drinker, that's like that's like the uh the Vendome of the Scotch world. Like you want your still from Forsyth's if you're if you're a Scotch whiskey producer. And so they cost a pretty penny. Uh they they everything is done exactly to his specs, though. And the end result is is paying off dividends. I just tried some of their oldest stocks, which is just over five years old. I cannot wait to see what that stuff tastes like in a few years. It's gonna be really exciting.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, it seems that we uh have sprung a leak in our glasses. It it may be time for another pour.
SPEAKER_00Oh they've there there is a big problem here. They're quite they're looking empty and clean, and I don't I I don't like that. So um I did bring one one final uh fun bottle for us to to explore in. Um I'm really excited to share this with you. Um actually I'm gonna have you unwrap it. It's been it's been sitting it's been sitting dormant for a couple of days now. Um so it's in the uh mysterious black wrapping paper. Yeah, I'm actually gonna have you do the honors of of popping it and pouring it for us. Okay, let's see what we got here. Yeah. Like Christmas time. It is. Shall we dig in?
SPEAKER_02Oh. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I know. A little foreshadowing.
SPEAKER_02Ton 1401, you shouldn't have.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I uh, you bastard. I I I actually just finished a uh batch eight a couple of weeks ago, and I said to myself, I can't go without having at least one bottle of Tun 1401 open, so I'm gonna have you do the honors for me. This is a batch nine. Yeah, go into the details as I sit here and cry a little bit. Um I actually wrote a um a really in-depth guide on my my website a couple years ago that if you search, if I believe if you Google Tun 1401, it is the top hit, like above anything from officially from the Belvani, it's actually the top hit. So um you can learn a little bit about it from there. But what made this series so special? This it was nine batches released between 2010 and 2013. This was the final batch. These are really, really old barrels. And you say to yourself, okay, what's you know, what's so special about this? The uh the the the the big warehouse, or the the the one that everybody gets to tour when you go visit the Belvaney, which is an awesome, awesome tour, great experience, is warehouse 24, and that's where they keep some of their oldest stocks. And I guess they came up with an idea when when they when they released the first batch. Um there were some barrels that were getting really old and were in danger of dropping below the minimum 40% ABV. They legally could not be sold as whiskey if they drop below that mark. And of course, over time the Angel's share is going to, um, you know, there's going to be some loss in the casks due to evaporation. In Scotland, especially, a lot of times it starts proofing down over time. And so they decided let's take some really old casks that taste great. Let's vat them together, and then every batch has this 21 or 22-year-old cask that gets mixed in that I'm guessing is pretty high-proof to kind of bring everything up and add a little bit of vibrance to it. And they just started releasing them. It started as a distillery-only release, it was a huge hit, and then they just started cycling through batches. They did they would do a batch for travel retail, then like UK and Australia, and you know, a couple other like international markets, and then the US. So we got batches three, six, and nine. They're all great. Um, and each bottle has its own kind of slightly unique spin, but I've never tasted anything like it. And so most, so you know, I love small batch releases. This is 13 casks. Um, it's I believe it's nine or ten traditional whiskey casks as they describe it, and then three sherry butts. Most of these casks were distilled in 1970, 71, 72. Um, and then they kind of sprinkle in some others from the 1970s. Um, and this batch has one from 1980 and 81, and then that one young cask from 1992.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that young cask.
SPEAKER_00So I like to describe this series as a 35-ish year old whiskey because it's kind of around the average age, and then you've got that one younger younger barrel in there. But if you think about it, like 35 to 40-year-old whiskey, some batches had whiskey up to 43, 44 years in it. MSRP on this at release time was $250. It's crazy. $250, which at the time, again, like price tolerance wasn't nearly what it is today, but it was it was still pretty pretty hefty. What are you what do you think these are going for on on secondary now? Uh last last I checked, most of the batch. I mean, I don't think there's a batch that's selling for under $1,000 secondary right now. Um the some the the original like batch one is going for four or four K, I think. Last time I saw it. It's it's ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02Well. So Lost Profits, Lost Profits. Oh, you spoil me, sir. Yeah. Well, let's get that mic up for the pop. Absolutely. Well, get the foil off first.
SPEAKER_00It's like you've popped before.
SPEAKER_02Uh, a couple thousand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Alright. Yep, don't go, don't go light on me.
SPEAKER_02Nope. We're gonna do that. Heavy pores, heavy pores.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. They um they played around as they work their way through the different batches with like X bourbon to X sherry cask percentages. This one is 41% sherry cask influence, which for the Belvaney, especially with older Belvani, that's actually exactly where I want it to be. Um, thank you. Um, so this is this has a nice dose of sherry cask influence and the three sherry butts. I actually double-checked before I before I said this. The three sherry casks that went into this, which are listed here, um, two of them were distilled in 1971. Wow. And the other one was distilled in 1970. So we've got some we've got some old stuff in here. Well, thank you so much. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I'm so I know how much you treasure these. So I know that this is a very uh special thing for you to bring this in and allow me to drink it. So thank you. Absolutely. Cheers. Oh man, it's gonna be tough to even. It's just loaded with old dried fruit, leather, tobacco.
SPEAKER_00I can tell you right now, just from the first the first couple sniffs, this is nowhere near ready. Nowhere near ready to taste. Not even close.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, so I'm gonna I'm gonna behave.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna put it on the case. Yeah, I I promise your patience will be rewarded.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna put it down and if uh drool starts forming at the corners of my mouth, please. It's it's not rabies, it's just I'm really excited. Yeah, yeah. We've we've nerded out nerded out about whiskey. Let's let's talk uh a little bit more about you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um I like to ask my guests uh questions that I feel like they might not have been asked before. Uh I think I think that that's an interesting take. You've been on plenty of podcasts as I have, and as our other guests have been as well.
SPEAKER_00Um, what is one or two of your favorite whiskey moments? It's so funny that you asked me that question right after we poured this. My visit to the Belvaney was a life-changing experience for me. Um and it was early on in my whiskey journey. We're talking 2011. Um, so I had been at this for a little bit, but clearly not to the not to the point where I'm at now. And uh I got an opportunity to do a private tour. And we got to, you know, kind of see the grounds, see the whole process, get into warehouse 24, and at the time, batch five of Ton 1401 was actually marrying in the ton. And uh David Mayer, uh the now retired, uh incredible um uh distillery manager and tour guide asked, he's like, Hey, you want to you want to give it a taste? And obviously, obviously I did. No, I don't want to do that. Obviously, I did. What a silly notion. And I um so I got to I got to actually taste it from the ton itself, and a couple of years later, I was out on a business trip in California. I went to a um whiskey bar in Santa Monica, and sure enough, batch five of Tonne 1401 was available and it was unopened. And I was like, I've got to try it. I've gotta try it again. And I remember having that that second that second experience, and of course, in a much more controlled setting. And as it turns out, batch five is my favorite ton 1401 of all time. Fast forward a few years, and I get the opportunity to attend a event at Jack Rose Dining Saloon in Washington, DC. It was a Balvani event, and David Mayer himself was there. And I brought a bottle of Batch 5 with me. Got to chat with him about it a little bit, and he got to sign it for me, and so it just it came full circle, and I still have that signed bottle. I've got a decent stash of Ton 1401 left. That might be the only one that never gets opened because it's just it has so much sentimental value to it now.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I mean that's that's that's really awesome. Yeah. Alright, riffing off that, what's one of your worst whiskey moments? Hmm.
SPEAKER_00That is a really good question. I'm like I'm like chugging through the archives right now, trying to trying to think of one that that I think is worth sharing.
SPEAKER_02And if you don't want to share, if it has to do with a specific, it doesn't necessarily have to be a like bad whiskey experience, but or it could be something fueled by whiskey, or it could be an event that went awry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, that well that's that's actually where where I'm sort of zeroing in on. So um, as you know, I I I host a lot of spirits tasting events, most, mostly whiskey. Um, and I do private events and corporate events for clients. And you know, I love love taking people through that education process. And I had one event that could not have gone worse from the moment the moment we started planning it. And I I should have seen the warning signs because they were the my my main point of contact with the client was wishy-washy. Things didn't quite things never quite got settled the way that they were supposed to. Um I made some mistakes in in not getting some things kind of like written down and getting some written records of stuff. We ended up having a pretty terrible event that they were they were pissed at me before the event even started. So I already knew like I was going into this with almost nothing to lose. I ended up doing an okay job, but like in the back of my head, just knowing all of the logistics and all the things that that went wrong before the event even started, I don't know. I just felt like my heart wasn't in it the way that it normally would be. And um, if I could go back, I probably never would have taken that that that gig on because um it was just a disaster from the start. And I remember talking to my wife about it after it was over with. I remember telling her, like, I I've got a bad feeling about this one, and I should have listened to my gut on it. Um and so sometimes you you gotta leave you gotta leave the business on the table if if the vibe is off. Yeah. Um, and I've I've actually had a couple of experiences since then where I've pulled the plug before we even get started because I could just tell it's not gonna work out.
SPEAKER_02So, how does your wife feel about you being in the spirits business, being in kind of a very unique uh situation, running events, writing for Forbes? Um, was she a little like taken aback at first, or has she just been in your corner the whole time? I know she's been in your corner the whole time, but was she just like a little like, I don't know what he's doing?
SPEAKER_00Um my wife is my biggest supporter. She is my partner, she is my numbers person. She handles she handles the books for me because I don't like doing that. Welcome to the club. Yeah. And um I I always, always give her credit. Um, when we when COVID really set in and all of a sudden the entire world shut down. It was, you know, obviously this insane experience, and we were all sharing this, this, this weird isolation. And she came to me with an idea, and she said, Hey, I bet you all of these businesses still have these like entertainment and events budgets. I wonder if people would want to get on like a Zoom call with you and go over some whiskey like online. And that concept had really never been proven before. Like I had seen like a little, like some some hints of it um here and there before that, but never thought of it as an actual viable business model. And so I thought about it for for a few days, and I remember coming back to her and saying, you know what? Why don't we just like throw it out there and see what happens? So and this is this is again like right at the start of COVID. Everything's kind of just wonky, right? No one's going anywhere, so we were she and I were up late nights, like coming up with how we how are we gonna do this? And I was all set to just like talk about the whiskey, which is what I love doing. And she said, Hey, you know, maybe we should make this like a like a full service experience. And I, you know, I thought about it and I said, you know, accessories, that sounds that sounds like a headache. But we decided to to kind of make a little tasting kit, and you know, we designed a box, and I right off the bat knew that I absolutely was not going to ship the alcohol myself. I was not about to go down that road. We said, let's pick a box that has everything else. And and and let's start there. So tasting notebook with a pen, eyedropper to add water, the glass, which you now see here. Um, shout out to Ben from Barrel Raised. He has Ben Rhodes has made thousands of these glasses for me, sometimes with the most ridiculous time requirements. He is an absolute rock star. I will I will text him and be like, hey, can you get me 35 glasses by Tuesday? And he makes it happen. That was great. He did my brother's wedding glasses. Did he really? Yeah, that's awesome. Um, so we put together this kit and the the final piece of the puzzle that I never would have thought of, and she's like, You should do food pairings too. And I'm like, How? Non, non-perishable snacks. You know, and so we went out and we found stuff that we thought would kind of cover like the basic groups, like we got we found something a little bit savory, we found something fruity, you know, little like fruit bars and um walkers, shortbreads, that kind of thing. And it worked beautifully. And, you know, I'd I'd ask some of the early clients, like, you know, why you know, why'd you decide to go with us? There was a little bit of competition out there, and they were like, Oh, well, you had like all the stuff. And so the accessories ended up being a really big differentiator early on. Um, and you know, we overcame some challenges and eventually found a retail partner that is happy to handle the fulfillment of the actual like sample bottles themselves. And yeah, I mean, between 20 between June of 2020 and the end of 2021, we probably ended up doing 200 virtual tastings. Wow. It was i i it was we would get we had gotten to the point where my kitchen was a warehouse. I'm sure it was just boxes and boxes and boxes, and um, even just the logistics of like keeping track of shipments, figuring out when to get stuff like sent out, you know, got to send things send things out two weeks ahead of time if they're going to the west coast. The samples were coming from Southern California, so there were different logistics challenges for people who were located on the East Coast. It was it was really interesting getting that up and running. But I think back now, what an absolute, like insane time that was. It's it was so much fun. We were doing the like the box design for the glasses. I remember specking that out, and and I'll have to I'll have to send you a send you a pic of what that looks like. I remember working on that at like two o'clock in the morning on a Wednesday, and we were like, this is it. This is it, we got it. Um, and so we were just doing everything by the seat of our pants, and and man, it what an absolutely incredible wild time that was.
SPEAKER_02What what's some of the interesting uh what's an interesting learning experience that you've had, uh, whether it was at a uh uh whiskey event that you went to or uh being in the business or or writing about it. What's what's some what's like an interesting life lesson that you've had that you wouldn't have had if you weren't in the whiskey industry?
SPEAKER_00Uh I can think of I can think of two of them actually. The th the first one is my main complaint about attending a whiskey event. So being on the other side of it when I'm not hosting, and it is the pacing of most whiskey events. And I totally understand that, you know, events kind of need a time limit and a cap. Um, but even with an hour runtime, let's say you have an hour-long event, you should be able to spend at least 15 minutes with, let's say, three different pores. And every time I am a part of an event as an attendee, I find that there's just never enough time to spend with the actual whiskey itself. Um I I attended the launch event for the Hibiki 40 year in October of last year. And as part of that experience, which was just so fun, we did a deconstruction tasting of Hibiki 40. So it was five samples from um the five different caste types, you know, there was obviously whiskey from Yamazaki and Hakushu and Cheetah. And those were cask samples from the 1970s and 80s. And when I tell you, we were flying through them, and I'm thinking to myself, oh, I need like another hour with these.
SPEAKER_02Each one.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, you know, we went through the five components that went into the final blend. We obviously tasted the final product. And we it was the the event was staged so that after that we were gonna do like a lunch with, you know, with a whole little um fun box of of things. It was a like an Asian-themed um lunch pairing and stuff. And I remember whoever it was that was kind of helping to coordinate the event saying, Oh, if anybody still has any of their, you know, Hibiki 40 left, you can take it with you. Me and one other person stood up with glasses that still had whiskey left in it. And I was like, This is something that you will never try again. Why? Why are you rushing through it? Um and it's kind of a reflection of like just how everybody lives their lives these days. We're just flying through to get to the next thing on the list.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that's that's something that um, you know, for me, enjoying enjoying moments and taking time is something that's very important to me because I am a person that likes to rush. Um and so one of the things that I've discovered over the years of of, you know, especially hiking and being uh very much an outdoors person is there it it's so much easier to do like a hike or find a view to have that experience and and savor it because especially when it's in nature, you can't ever replicate that day, the the temperature, the weather, uh the views even change sometimes. And there are just certain moments when you when you see something or in whiskey taste something, you're like, this is this is one of those special times that I I need to treasure and I need to enjoy, and I know that time is finite and it will end, but damn it, I'm gonna I'm gonna give it all its all I've got to just just really sit down and and and chew it and appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think that's that's been a really important reminder for me the last couple of days. You know, we've been we've spent more time completely out of cell service than with it. What a what a blessing that turned out to be. Uh it was just incredible not having to have the constant vibration or the ping or the little ding of of of text messages coming in.
SPEAKER_02You just knew you weren't getting them. Even the first night, as soon as you picked you up, you're like, I just need to decompress. I'm coming from a more hectic life on the East Coast to coming out here. I'm like, great, because you're not gonna have cell phone service for the for about 14 hours when we're camping, if not longer. And you I could literally see in your in your body posture, just uh Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00My tell is the shoulders, right? Once those shoulders drop, you know that I finally got there.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah. And that that's that's something that I'm really trying to provide to people with with this experience. Experiences to unwind, to de-stress. And you know, this isn't this isn't obviously isn't a podcast where you just come on for two hours and you're gone. No, this is several days, it's a commitment. And m you know, as someone who's been to countless whiskey events, I I do oftentimes feel rushed. And I love giving people an experience where, you know, over the course of days, we have relaxing periods, we have open periods where we can just do whatever we want and come up with fun ideas. And the whole point of it is is that you do get an experience that is exciting, it's adventurous, but at the same time you go home feeling refreshed and recharged.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, so you know, so that that that's the one lesson. Um, but the other one is also just as important, and it's it's kind of on a different a different level, but I think it's worth worth talking about as part of some of the things that I've been doing over the last couple of years, um, namely the events and especially the writing that I've been doing, um, the work I've been doing for Forbes the last year and a half has been um really, really fun because it has it's challenged me. Like when I'm working on a piece for Forbes, I know I I gotta get my A game on. And it has inspired me to be a better writer. It has inspired me to really think through how I want to tell a story. And so the other thing that I've really learned from from this experience is just how important the storytelling aspect is. And I know that a lot of times, you know, especially in the spirits world, like what's in the glass should speak for itself. And if you've made a product the right way, it will. But there's something about bringing that experience to life in a storytelling way that just really takes things to another level. And I'm thinking back to an event that I hosted last year, um, and I was actually talking about it with you guys earlier. Um, it was just outside of Austin, and I never got to tell you what happened. So now, no, no, far away. I think now is the perfect time. Absolutely. Um, I had this event that I did in August of 2024, so it's still still pretty fresh in my mind, although I will never forget it. And a woman reached out to me and was like, hey, I want to do a whiskey tasting for my husband's 60th birthday party. We're in the Austin area. You know, let's let's talk. And when I see that, my first thought is, well, this one's not happening. Because I have done a decent amount of travel engagements for in-person events, I don't care. Um, but travel engagements are going to cost a lot more. There's logistics and travel and lodging and all the things that go into making an event happen, uh, as well as my time away from home, right? I have three young kids and some family responsibilities and things, so it's gotta be worth the effort. And so a lot of times I will reach back out and say, hey, you know, just letting you know we're based in New England and this is gonna be a travel engagement, and they'll be like, Oh, I didn't realize. Thanks, have a nice day. And that almost always happens with private events because it's just somebody reaching out to see if somebody can come out and do a thing. A lot of times they don't even look to see where I'm located. So they just assume, okay, this person must be local. It's like a Google ad that comes up for them. So I did my I do my little copy paste. We're not local, we have to travel. And she was like, Great, give me a call. And I said, Oh, okay. So we go through the conversation, and it's pretty apparent that they are high net worth individuals. And so, you know, the gears start turning in my head, and I start thinking to myself, you know, the limiting factor on the storytelling side of things usually is the budget for the whiskey itself. And I try really hard to cap my in-person events at three different bottles. And if they really push for four, that's fine. Anything over that, and really your palate's gonna be blown out by my port number five. So I shoot for three or four if they really insist. You know, so I came back and said, I want to do three, three, a three-bottle lineup, we'll do something really nice. You know, what's your what's your approximate budget for the whiskey itself? And she came back to me and said, Um, why don't we cap it like around five thousand dollars? Oh, good lord. And and she caught herself and she said, you know what? If something like super special comes up, let's let's cap it at 7,500. Jeez. And I and immediately I my brain just started thinking, okay, I have so much to work with now. And the the I got off that phone call and I went to like all of the auction sites, and I'm like, okay, let's see what's let's see what's out there. And you know, I I told her, I said, hey, if something pops up that is like we'll never get a chance to to try this again, I'm just gonna go for it. And she's like, okay, cool. You know, if if it's if it's worth it, go for it. Was it a particular style of whiskey or could it be Oh, that was the best part. That was the best part. Um, you know, and that's one of my first questions when when we do an event, you know, um, what kind of whiskey are you looking for? A lot of people want to stick to just bourbon. Totally get that. Um, and she came back and said, Oh, no, he likes a little bit of everything. Go cheese. Oh, and I said, Thank you. Thank you. And I said, Okay, cool. We're gonna do three different styles. Um, she even she even took a bunch of pictures of like his stash. Nice. So I was like, Oh, good, no repeats. And I was like, I'm actually gonna go for three brands that I am positive he has never tried based on what I'm seeing. And she and he had quite the stash. And I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna blow this out. And so I settled on a lineup of three really fun bottles, which would have been great on their own. Each one of them could have been like a showstopper. But I went through it and I started thinking about how I can tell the story with these three bottles. So the first one that I I went for was um I we decided to start with Japanese whiskey. So I ended up picking up a bottle of Karotzawa, their spirit of Asama, the 55% bottle. Yep. I went for a single, I I almost got a uh two 2,000 single cask and it ended up like getting a bidding war at the end. So it's okay. We went for it. And so I started with a product from a distillery that has been closed for over 20 years. And just just setting that that that feel, I thought would be a really cool way to kind of get people going, like, okay, this is this guy is is bringing this guy's bringing stuff that that we may not even know existed. So we started with that, and then we went on to the second bottle. This was a 60th birthday, meaning that the the the gentleman was born in 1964, and I said, well, gonna have to get a 1964 vintage of something. Um so I ended up getting a Telabardine 1964 single cask, uh distilled and barreled in 64, bottled in, I think, 2007, so it had a had a decent amount of age to it. Just a little bit. Um, and he loved the fact that I, you know, I kind of said, like, okay, we need to, um, I hear that 1964 is a great vintage, obviously, so we need to find a 64 vintage to that's on par. Um, and he loved the fact that it was it was his birth year. Um, and so again, kind of like building this anticipation. And for the the closer bottle, most of his collection was bourbon. So I said, okay, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta really gotta really make it happen on the bourbon side. So, you know, I did not tell him what we were or any of the guests what we were doing. And before I brought out the last bottle, I said, Hey, uh, I uh got you a little little present for your birthday. Um if you can please open this and and share with everybody what it is that that you've got. Uh I got him a copy of Chuck Cowdery's book, The Best Bourbon You'll Never Taste. Ah, A H Hersh. Which is AH Hirsch. And he opened it and he read it, and he's like, The best bourbon you're never you'll never taste. And I said, Or is it? Oh, you and when I tell you slide that place erupted. And this was we were indoors, it was the party was like indoors, outdoors. There were people running in from outside, like, why is everybody screaming? Um, but it was just all of that anticipation building. And I mean that was that was very clearly by design. And there he was holding the bottle and you know, the book, and there were so many pictures being taken, they had a professional photographer for the event. And, you know, obviously, great whiskey aside, when all was said and done, you know, I went I went over to his wife, who was, you know, the reason that this was able to happen, and I said, Hey, by giving me the flexibility to really find from all the whiskey out there, the best bottles I could find to make this happen, you gave me the chance to to to really just set the vibe for this whole this whole party. And um, they were they were talking about it apparently for weeks afterwards. Oh, I'm sure. And you know, that's usually the limiting factor for me, right? I'll ask them what they what they can do for a budget. A lot of times we're talking, you know, $300, $500, and you know, I'll I'll do my best, but um, you know, when the the the sky is sort of the limit, so to speak, it just gives you a chance to to really to really just build that storytelling aspect into it, and and um, you know, it's it's it's a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so uh I know I get this question a lot of people do. They're like, how did you uh get to where you are in life or you know in this industry? So what are some like hardships and what have forged or made you into the person you are to make you be able to work in this industry industry, be in the position you're in? Um, and and I don't mean like people, I mean like personal, uh like what you've had to do to get to where you are in life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think the thing that has that I'm most proud of, um, and it has has been what has gotten me to where I am today in this industry, especially, is staying true and authentic to myself and my own core mission. And you know, we've seen a lot of things change in the whiskey world over the past decade, especially. We've seen a lot of things change in terms of um social media, right? We were talking about it earlier this week. I do not make video content. I won't do it. And that is to the detriment of my engagement, and I don't care. For a long time, the articles that I would write on my website were long and they were detailed and they were in-depth, and I remember countless times publishing and saying, click, nobody's gonna read this. But I did it anyway. And wouldn't you know it? One day, an editor from Forbes emailed me and said, Hey, we really like these in-depth articles. Do you want to do this for us? And I I think that staying true to your authentic self in this space and in life is gonna get you where you want to go. To thine own self be true.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it's it's a famous quote and one that is obviously true. I mean, I can tell you uh that I definitely can relate to that. You know, I I said from the beginning to my friends and family, I'm gonna get paid to to to hike and drink whiskey. And they're like, really? How are you gonna do that? I'm like, I don't know, but I'm gonna do it. And uh, you know, I was I've been broke or close to broke most of my life. Um, thankfully, you know, not anymore, but you know, you gotta be you gotta be willing to make the sacrifices and and push through. And when you have a vision and a goal, uh, and if you have the willpower to really make it happen, things just line up. They really do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and the cool thing about where where where things are headed for me is that that storytelling aspect I'm finding is so rewarding for me. And having the again, the sometimes the resources through events to tell those stories, um, having the connection to Forbes has opened so many doors for me. Oh, absolutely. I've had the opportunity to interview so many incredible people, and that that probably would not have been possible without that connection, but now I get to tell those stories to a broad audience, and it is so much fun. And every time I hit publish in my little Forbes backend, I say to myself, I hope somebody reads this. I still say it.
SPEAKER_02I get so excited to see when you've published an article and you tag me in it, because I'm like, here we go. There are times where I won't even open it because I'm busy. I'm like, I need to be like in like a good spot to sit down and read because I know I'm like, oh, it's gonna be a nerd one.
SPEAKER_00I love the nerd ones. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And uh, you know, we I think we touched on this um a couple days ago in in the car, but um, I'll get like um PR people reaching out and it's probably just an email blast from their media list, and it's like, hey, you know, we're uh reaching out on behalf of so-and-so brand. Um I don't know if this is gonna be a fit for any roundups or or um, you know, uh Father's Day gift guides that you're working on. And I'm like, that's not me. Um but the but but the cool thing now, finally, I is that some of those PR people know me. So for example, um when I when I wrote the article about the Hibiki 40, um apparently they really liked it. So that same point person reached out to me a couple months later and was like, hey, we got you in mind specifically to talk about Bush Mills 46 years. I still hate you so much. I want that so badly.
SPEAKER_02If there were that article, I was drooling on my keyboard.
SPEAKER_00I I promise you, if there were any drops of that left, which there are not, I would have brought it. But I think it's really cool. And and that's that's what I hope to continue to do is I want to cement myself um on the writing side of things as the person that brands or PR folks reach out to to really get into the weeds, get in depth. There, there's a market for that.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a thirst for it, man, because you know, and it's especially someone who um, you know, I'm not the best writer. Like I can write down my reviews and and whatnot, but I'm much more of a visual person. Like it's a little, it's it's it's it's a much quicker way to get things across. But you someone, even though I do that, like I want the geeky stuff, like I want to read in-depth, I want to learn all the all the nitty-gritty. And so uh having someone like you on that team is just absolutely wonderful for them. And and you know, obviously, I've been reading your articles for many, many years. And so it just uh I love the fact that that someone recognized that, gave you the opportunity, and you just seized it, went with it, and it's just it's working out awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny. There's um there's like these little behind the scenes checks as you're writing an article, and it's like, okay, if you can get to 500 words, like that's that's like one star. Uh, you know, 750 is two stars, a thousand is three stars. I don't think I have put an article out there that's under 1,500 words. And I've I've like tried to cut it down. It's not happening. No, it's not happening because I'm like, but people need to know that. No, I can't, I gotta leave that in there. Oh, but that's that's an important piece of history. Nope, that's gotta stay. Uh and at this point, I don't even look at that anymore. It's it's just the the article's done when it's done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And and I think that's a very important thing that if you have too much structure, there's no room for for you know the real magic to happen. Uh and I think that applies to everything, not just not just with writing. Um I think that we confine ourselves too often to saying, these are my constraints, these are my limits. And when you do that, you put yourself in a box. And when you put yourself in a box, how do you grow?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, you that's actually I I think um I haven't done a deep dive into my competitive analysis, but on the event side of things, I tell people right away on that very first call, there is no structure to this, to what, to this event. We are gonna have a conversation that is based off of the people that are in the room or on the call, and we're gonna take it in whatever direction they want it to go. And I think people really like that. Absolutely. Like, there's no slides, there are no talking points. If it's a if it's a quiet group, I will happily fill the dead air time, but I'm begging for questions. Hit me with any question you want, because it's gonna make that unique experience one of a kind.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I mean that's that's the fun of it too. Yeah, the that little bit of the unknown. Like, we decide today that we're going to cook an absolutely incredible tomahawk steak. I've never grilled a tomahawk steak before. We're gonna do it anyway. You know, and it's just those little things where we're like, oh, this is gonna be an interesting new experience, an adventure that hopefully will work out.
SPEAKER_00I think between us uh we've probably got a we've probably got a couple hundred thousand steaks under our belts. Oh, I've got a lot of steaks under my belt. Yeah, so um I it's good it's gonna it's gonna work out the way it's gonna work out. Well, before we continue. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Is it time? It's you know please tell me it's time.
SPEAKER_00So um you know what? I'm gonna save this next talking point until after we sip. Okay. Cheers, sir. Cheers.
SPEAKER_02Oh. I'm so happy you saved this for after the Taliscar. It was good, but it ain't it ain't this good. Sorry, Taliscar.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, Diaggio, but it ain't this good. And the only the only thing that had me debating was the smoke. But it's been long enough since we have the Talisker. Plenty long enough. Yeah. Um also, just for the grand reveal and because you know how much this bottle means to me, I had it. I had it.
SPEAKER_02I would have been a little disappointed with with you if you busted that out first because that's yeah, I mean it's weird, but like there's such a personal element to this bottle.
SPEAKER_00There there is. I you know, it's it's weird though. It's like, let's start off with this 45-year-old, and but you you you see now why. Oh, there was a method of the madness.
SPEAKER_02No, it was you made the right move. Yeah. Um that's sublime. Yeah. And it's just that like like you said, like for me, Scotch whiskey, I love it between 46 and 50. I think that is the sweet spot, and that is a perfect 49.3.
SPEAKER_0049.3.
SPEAKER_02That's it's right there.
SPEAKER_00Uh so when I talked to I got a decent amount of of FaceTime with David Stewart at that event that I was I was telling you about earlier, and I was talking to him a little bit about my affinity for the Tun 1401 series, and I told him that my brother and I many years prior, um, I I had some of my own bottles, and then I uh slowly but surely acquired samples of the batches that I didn't have, including batch one, which was three hundred and thirty-six bottles only. So you know that that is a dwindling supply. So I got all nine batches, and my brother and I, over the course of an afternoon, did a blind tasting of the entire range. That's awesome. And uh, David Stewart looked at me and said, I think you might be the only people on the planet to have done that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I believe it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um there have been there have been some some tastings like where they have gone through most of or all of the range, but never in a blind format. Um and I love blind tasting because it takes all of those preconceived notions out of out of the experience, you know. Batch one did not rank in my top five.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that makes sense. Yep. I mean that there's a lot of trial and error. It's it's you don't want to hit a home run right out of the gate.
SPEAKER_00And as a control, because why not? One of the we actually did nine batches of ton 1401 and then a sample of the Balvaney 30 year. Also a classic. Also a classic. And when the final results came out, I had Batch 9 and the 30 year swapped in my guesses. Really? They were almost interchangeable. Huh. And at the time, batch nine was running for $249.99. I actually got it a little bit cheaper in some store in Connecticut. I did that a lot. And at the time, the 30 year was somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand dollars for a bottle. Yeah. And I actually don't know what it goes for these days, but it's it's more than that. More than that. Um so I think it's really interesting. Even back then, we're talking about a 30-year expression that could not be differentiated amongst these $250 bottles. So cool. That's awesome. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So since this podcast is about experiencing new things, uh, personal growth and learning, is there anything uh from this trip that you've learned or experienced that you can relay to our viewers about uh something they could maybe apply to their lives?
SPEAKER_00I think this experience for me was a really good reminder. You know, I stepped off that plane and the day before, actually the two or three days before that, I was working in some capacity from sunup to sundown. Part of it was prep for the trip, but um I had a couple of virtual events that I was getting ready for. I had some work stuff to work on. There were a lot of things happening with the kids, end of s end of school year activities, so many things happening, and you know, some of that stuff can't be controlled, but I had basically boxed myself into a corner for like the two or three weeks leading up to this event where it was literally sun up to sundown, and sometimes beyond that, um, for weeks and weeks at a time. I have not checked my email since I got here a couple days ago. I cannot remember the last time I've done that. And I think the the lesson to to really be applied from that is I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna dig through those emails later. And chances are 99% of them are not gonna be that important in the grand scheme of things. I think we I think we place a lot of focus and importance on things that again, when you kind of look at it from a a more macro point of view, they really don't matter as much as we uh they don't they don't hold the weight that we give them, or they shouldn't rather. Um and so this was a really good reminder for me not only to really place the weight on the things that really deserve it, um but also just a a reminder of how we can find beauty in so many different ways. Um being able to see the things that I saw this this week has has been just eye-opening for me. Um, some of the stuff that we saw at Yellowstone. I will never forget that experience when we saw the the rainbow pool. Um one of the coolest things I have ever seen in my life. Um that memory will n is permanently, permanently burned into my brain. And um I'm just so thankful that we were able to make that happen. Um and I hope that I continue to see the beauty in in the natural world when I get home. Well, I can't think of a more perfect ending.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that was that was awesome, man. It's it's been such a pleasure to hang out with you again. Oh, likewise. And and uh to bring you on to on something really cool and to just spend time and hang out and reconnect and just really enjoy each other's company and the nature, nature and and and what it provides, and you know, now we're gonna really appreciate a hopefully incredibly good meal. So, Chris. I have no doubt. Cheers, man. Cheers. Love you, buddy. This has been fantastic, and and uh yeah, I mean, we got another another day of fun, but awesome. This this has been amazing. Yeah, yeah, thank you so much again. Just what a what an awesome experience. Love it. All right, cheers, everybody.
SPEAKER_00Cheers.