Terrible Twos

Before the violence… there was family, war, and survival.

In Episode 2 of The Krays Web, we go back to the beginning — exploring the roots of Ronnie and Reggie Kray, and the environment that shaped two of Britain’s most notorious criminals.

From boxing bloodlines to wartime trauma, this episode uncovers the people and events that influenced the twins long before their rise to power.

In this episode:
• The Kray family history and East End roots
• “Mad Jimmy” Kray and his life before and after World War I
• Jimmy “Southpaw Cannonball” Lee and the twins’ introduction to boxing
• Family tragedy, including the loss of a sibling
• The twins’ early childhood in 1930s London
• The impact of World War II — bombing, evacuation, and their father’s desertion

Why it matters:
Understanding where the Krays came from reveals how violence, instability, and environment helped shape their future — and challenges the myths surrounding their legacy.

Follow the show for more deep-dive episodes into the truth behind the Kray twins.

Next episode: The teenage years — boxing, crime, and the first signs of what was to come – You’re in the Army Now

Links to Resources

Check out my website for resources used and social media links : thekraysweb.com

Contact me : wendyceepods@gmail.com

Music by Captain Fat Hands captainfathands.com

Full evacuee interviews : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKpxeXURwWw&authuser=3 

Transcript

Wendy Cee 0:23

Welcome to the Krays Web, a podcast about the infamous Kray twins and those associated with them. I'm your host, Wendy Cee, and this is season one, The Krays. This is episode two, Terrible Twos. Please note that there is some swearing in this podcast and descriptions of violence. I'll be adding specific trigger warnings where needed. The voices that you hear throughout the podcast are my family and friends, who have rallied round to help me to make this podcast more enjoyable for you to listen to. I've used lots of sources when writing these episodes, far too many to list here, but details of which you will be able to find on my website, thecraysweb.com. James, otherwise known as Jimmy Kray, was born on the 4th of April 1884 to James Sr. and Jane Wood, who married three months before Jimmy was born. He grew up in Bethnal Green with his sister Betsy and his half siblings George, Albert and Jane, children from his mother's first marriage. Jimmy started work young, which was completely normal at this time, and spent his working hours as a cable maker for an electrical company which was in its infancy at this time. At just sixteen he met Louisa Eliza Turner. She was a few years older than him. Louisa was a docker's daughter, and when she fell pregnant, they quickly married on the fifth of may nineteen oh one. Their marriage certificate states that they were both twenty one, but Jimmy was actually just seventeen. But it was likely that he was forced into the marriage by Louisa's parents due to her pregnancy. Their first child James John Frederick was born just a month later, quickly followed by John George in 1902, Albert Charles in 1904, Charles David in 1907, Alfred in 1909, William in 1911, Elizabeth in 1916, who sadly died when she was just two years old, Dorothy in 1919, and finally Charlotte in 1921. It was uncertain times the family were extremely poor, and they moved around a lot after Jimmy lost his job as a cable maker. He was struggling to find a way to survive. On the twenty eighth of June 1914, Serbian extremists assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary, and exactly a month later, Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia with German encouragement. A few days later, Germany joined in, invading Luxembourg and Belgium, while France invaded Alsace. The United Kingdom issued an ultimatum to Germany to withdraw from Belgium, but after the deadline passed on the 4th of August 1914 at 11 pm with no reply, war was declared. Sir Edward Grey spoke in Parliament the day before the deadline. This is an excerpt of a reenactment.

Sir Edward Grey 3:37

The most awful responsibility is resting upon the government in deciding what to advise the House of Commons to do. We worked for peace up to the last moment and beyond the last moment. How hard, how persistently, and how earnestly we strove for peace last week. But that is over. As far as the peace of Europe is concerned, we are now face to face with the situation and all the consequences which it may yet have to unfold. I have now put the vital facts before the House. And if, as seems not improbable, we are forced and rapidly forced to take our stand upon those issues. Then I believe when the country realizes what is at stake, what the real issues are, the magnitude of the impending dangers in the west of Europe, which I have endeavoured to describe to the House, we shall be supported throughout, not only by the House of Commons, but by the determination, the resolution, the courage, and the endurance of the whole country.

Wendy Cee 4:51

The pressures of a large family were weighing on him, and he couldn't see a way of making life any better. So for him, war was a way out. It would give him an escape and a regular income. And so on the 14th of September 1914, Jimmy signed up to the King's Royal Rifle Company, a regiment that traditionally recruited younger, fitter men. Very shortly afterwards, Jimmy was shipped off to Boulogne, France, later fighting in Ypres in Belgium. I found this clip talking to some veterans who served in Ypres some 40 years later.

Army veteran 5:32

Well, the uh the training that we'd had before we went over, we knew that the uh with the fighting um uh musketry that we'd had, we knew that it was going to be fighting.

Wendy Cee 5:46

Here are some sounds that Jimmy would have heard in EAP. This may be a trigger for some listeners, so please be careful. In 1916, Jimmy received an honourable discharge from the forces after being wounded in his chest and was sent home with a silver war badge, so that he was spared from the beatings of East End men who may think he was shirking his responsibilities. After the war, Jimmy spotted a business opportunity and would do house calls in the new housing estates all around him, where he would deal in crockery sets and became a wardrobe dealer, buying and selling used clothes from a small market stall in Brick Lane, Bethnal Green, an area of London famous for its markets. Sometimes his children, and later his grandchildren, including Ronnie, Reggie, and Charlie, would accompany him on his stool. Aged just thirty seven, James had been married for twenty years, was a father of eight, had been through a war, and had his own small business. He was managing to survive, and being his own boss was a bonus. Jimmy was a formidable character in the East End, small in stature, but he could sure dish out a beating if it was needed, and his bare knuckle boxing fights on street corners earned him the nickname Mad Jimmy. He fought aggressively, likely fuelled by alcohol, and would keep his opponents on their toes. His grandchildren would be fascinated by his stories of boxing, and this may have led to their own choice to pursue a professional boxing career. Jimmy Kray was the father of Charlie Kray Sr. and the grandfather of Ronnie, Reggie, and Charlie. Charlie Kray Sr. followed in his father's footsteps as a wardrobe dealer in the East End, also diversifying into dealing in jewellery. On the 6th of March 1926, Charlie and his underage bride, Violet Lee, aged 17, snuck off to the registry office to get married. Violet, of course, lied about her age. Her father James, also known as Jimmy, was furious. Yes, both Charlie and Violet's fathers were called Jimmy. In the book Reggie Kray's East End Stories, he is quoted as saying, She's no daughter of mine, I'm only born to see her again. Jimmy Lee was born in 1876 of Romani descent. His father James was a butcher who suffered epileptic seizures possibly brought on by excessive alcohol consumption, or from an injury he endured as a young man when he fell off a cart. Either way, he could get violent during these seizures and once attacked his family and ended up in an asylum for the rest of his life. For this reason Jimmy never drank, and frequently clashed with his son-in-law Charlie, who definitely liked his beer a little too much. Jimmy married Mary Anne Horton on the seventeenth of january eighteen ninety eight, and they had a son, James, who sadly passed away in Jimmy's arms shortly after birth. The following year they welcomed Joseph, and then Rose in nineteen oh seven, Violet in nineteen oh nine, May in nineteen eleven, and John in nineteen fourteen. Jimmy was a flyweight professional boxer with a hefty right hand punch which seemed to flummox his opponents every time. And he would often win bets because he was so small everyone believed they would easily beat him. During the First World War, Jimmy joined the Royal Air Force and was in the Flying Corps. His nickname that followed him throughout his life was Southpool Cannonball Lee. Alongside boxing, Jimmy was a street performer. He would sing, dance, recite poetry, play a variety of musical instruments and perform tricks. He would walk on glass and was known for sticking a hot poker on his tongue. In the book Reggie Kray's East End Stories, he is quoted as saying You're safe enough, as long as you see poker's white or if it's just red, you lose your tongue. When Jimmy finally retired, he became a market trader. Jimmy was an athlete who lived clean and was a huge influence on the twins. He would fascinate them with stories of fighting, and when they reached adolescence, he set up a gym in one of the upstairs rooms at Valance Road and would train them with a punch bag. His stamina, even in his later years, was phenomenal. There is a family story that at the age of seventy five he cycled forty two miles to South End to meet his son Johnny, who had driven a coach party there, and he wanted to cycle back again, but Johnny said no. Can you imagine doing that journey on a bike from the nineteen fifties with a heavy steel frame, steel wheels and no gears? Back to Charlie Kray Sr. and Violet Lee, who married on the 6th of March 1926. Unable to return to her family home after the wedding, the newlyweds moved in with Charlie's Aunt Betsy and her husband George Cook. They lived at 40 Gorsush Street, the same house that Charlie had grown up in. On the 9th of July 1926, just four months after their wedding, along came their first child, Charlie Kray Jr., which did thaw the ice a little with Jimmy. Three years later they welcomed a daughter, Violet, who sadly passed away after just three days, which seems to contradict all reports I have seen that says she was just a few hours old. Her death certificate, signed by the coroner in October 1929, says that she died at home and gives the cause of death from the inquest as traumatic cerebral hemorrhage from fall onto floor due to precipitate labour accidental. How heartbreaking for Charlie Sr. and Violet to lose their beautiful daughter in such a horrific way. In the book Reggie Kray's East End Stories, it says For many months after losing her baby, my mother was so grief stricken that eventually the doctor told my dad, if your wife doesn't become pregnant as soon as possible, she's gonna lose the will to live and just fade away. Then in early 1933, Violet found out that she was pregnant. Charlie and Violet must have been so scared when Violet went into labour again on the 24th of October 1933. Reggie was born first, followed 45 minutes later, according to his book, by Ronnie. Two little cheeky boys with four heads of black hair, identical, apart from a small mole on Ronnie's neck. Charlie, their older brother, who was seven at the time, remembers that day in his book, Me and My Brothers.

Charlie Kray 12:36

I was encouraged to go out and play and not come back until called. Curious and a little put out, I watched the house from my wall for most of the day. There was a lot of coming and going, and then, in the early evening, I was told I could go in. I went to my mum's bedroom and there they were. Where did they come from? I asked. I bought them, my mum replied. But mum, I said, why did you buy two? She laughed. It was little after eight o'clock on the twenty fourth of October 1933. My twin brothers had arrived.

Wendy Cee 13:06

Charlie and Violet's little family was complete, and the relationship with Violet's parents were mended. Little did they know what lay ahead. Like any young child, Ronnie and Reggie were a handful, but of course being twins meant double trouble. They were boisterous and loved rough play. But they were also adorable. Twins weren't common, and they would get a lot of attention.

Flan 14:19

She s used to say, I used to walk down Bethnel Green Road in with that pram, one there, one there. People used to stop. Oh, they're beautiful. She said they was like two little bunny rabbits, that's what she used to call them. And she used to have these little soppy angora, fluffy wool, coats with little hats. And that's the um picture that's famous of the two of them, and little and little berries.

Wendy Cee 14:46

And then when they were around three years old, they got sick. Really, really sick when they contracted diphtheria, a potentially fatal contagious bacterial infection. Whilst it is very rare in the UK now, due to vaccinations, back in the 1930s, there were reported 58,000 cases a year, with around 5% ending in death. Ronnie and Reggie were rushed to hospital.

Flan 15:11

They both got diphtheria. And she took them to the London. And they were going to die because diphtheria wasn't like it is now. You have an injection. You know, lots of children were dying from diphtheria, whether they were strong because sh she looked and modecoddled them and treated them like dolls, and fed them well with a lot of food. And a lot of people had children who died didn't have good food in those days, and were poor couldn't buy food. She was lucky like that because the old man always went out to work. One thing you could say about him. One good thing. That's the only thing I could say about him. And they both were very, very dangerously ill. And all of a sudden she went in with Auntie May and they said, Well, we can't believe the improvement. She went, Oh, good, I'll take him home. They said, No, you can take Reggie home. He was smiling and laughing and moving about this morning. She went, What's the matter with my other twin? No, he's very dangerously ill. And she said, All right. So she took Reggie home and she went back the next night and they said he has worsened. In other words, they were getting her ready to say he's gonna die. He was coughing and splattering and really, really bad. She said, Well, what are you doing for him? And they said, Well, we're treating him as, you know, we're doctors, we know what diphtheria is, but um he's not improving. She said, I know what he needs. Wrapped him in the blanket. They said, You can't remove the child from the hospital. She said, I have three doctors trying to stand in my way. And Auntie May said, Get out of her way. She will take that baby out of this hospital. She said, I knew exactly what he needed, my Ronnie. She said, He needed me, but he needed his twin. She took him home, laid him beside Ronnie, wrapped him up in the same blanket. Two days laughing, no coughing, laughing, cuddling together. That was a bit of a miracle, actually, but she knew. As a mother, she said, Well, they're doing nothing here. I think he needs to be with his twin and me. That's what she said. And she was right.

Wendy Cee 17:19

Reggie recalls some childhood memories in his book. A home in Steam Street was in some rooms over a furniture shop. And though my memories of the years spent there are a few and hazy, one of the strongest is of playing day after day amongst the closely stacked tables, chester drawers, and largely ornately carved wardrobes. The mind, being what it is, looking back, it seems as though Ron and I did nothing else but play hide and seek, make little secret camps and climb daringly through the maze of what today would be valuable antiques. At least Mum always knew where to find us. When the twins were around five years old, they moved to the address that they are most famously associated with, 178 Valence Road. Next door to their Aunt Rose and Uncle Bill, who lived next door to their Aunt May and Uncle Albert. Reggie describes the house in his book. The house was a tiny two up and two down, but to a youngster it was a huge palace. That it was dump, crumbling, shaken, day and night by passing trains was of no concern to me. It was a proper house, and I felt safe and comfortable there. Ronnie also has fond memories of this house in his book, My Story.

Ronnie Kray 18:31

I can remember it had a big coal fire in the kitchen, which we used to sit in front of while our mother did the ironing. I can remember the big fire ducts covered in soot which stood above the houses. I can remember the trains which used to go along the lines at the end of our backyard on our way in and out of Liverpool Street Station. And I can remember lying in bed early in the mornings in the back bedroom, me and Bred used to share, listening to our mum singing in the backyard as she hung out the washing. She had a lovely voice.

Wendy Cee 19:00

Ronnie also says that their parents encouraged them to be kind to animals, and that they had chickens in their tiny backyard and a mongrel dog.

PM Neville Chamberlain 19:35

This morning, the British ambassador in Berlin handed the German government a final note. A state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now. And no such undertaking has been received. And as consequently, this country is at war with Germany.

Wendy Cee 20:11

Reggie's recollection of this just before his and Ronnie's sixth birthday is as follows. As far as I could sum things up in my mind, some man called Mr. Hitler was going round fighting everybody. Dad showed me a picture of him in the paper, and when I said he looked like Charlie Chaplin, he laughed and slapped me on the back. Kids at school were saying that Mr. Hitler would come over and drop bombs on us, but I didn't believe him. War was declared, but life went on just the same as before. Charlie Sr. was conscripted. Multiple letters arrived from the Tower of London calling him up for service. But unlike his father and father-in-law in World War I, Charlie was a coward and there was no way he was going to fight. So he deserted and largely left Violet to care for the three boys, though he would sneak back from time to time to give Violet money and see her and the children. In Reggie's book Born Fighter, he says that the police would regularly call at the house to find Charlie senior. In the early hours of one morning, the police got me and Ron out of bed in our pajamas. They took us downstairs, proceeded to look in the coal cupboard for Dad, and then asked us questions. Ron and I answered, We haven't seen him, mother's getting a divorce from him. She had rehearsed his dialogue of us earlier. We were only about six or seven at the time. Reggie goes on to describe how Charlie Senior would hide in the outhouse, jumping over the wall into next door's yard if he had the opportunity. Charlie Senior had lots of hiding spots and would also stay. He did get caught by the police a few times and was sent to various detention centres. Charlie Sr. taught his boys from an early age to be rebellious against authority, and boy, did they take that to heart. They went to school, they played in the street, they spent time with family, nothing changed until it did. Changes started to creep into daily life. Children were issued with gas masks in small satchel-like bags that they had to carry with them at all times. Schools started to practised air raid drills where a bell would sound and the children would march out of the school and into concrete shelters that had been built in the yard. Practice guns were fired, the streets were filled with cars, lorries and soldiers. Windows had to be covered in paper and sheets at night to block out all light. But everything else stayed the same until the next sounds you hear are going to be sounds of bombing, so please skip forward a few seconds if this is a trigger for you. Reggie describes what it was like with all this going on around them. Being too young to have any imagination about a devastation being caused, Ron and myself thought it was exciting as we lay in a double bed we shared and listened to the distant crump, crump of explosions. We never realised people were dying because of this until Mum told us to pray for the families of all the people who were killed in an accident just round the corner in the Mile End Road. Things became a little more real for the twins around a week later though when a bomb landed by the railway line behind their house, and the blast threw both Ronnie and Reggie out of bed, smashing every window in their street and destroying half of their roof. This blast killed 130 people. It was then that Violet decided to take action. It was time for them all to leave London. The boys were lucky, Violet went with them, but for many this was not the case, as it was just not practical. Operation Pied Piper had been put into operation two days before the declaration of war, and over 1.5 million people, including 800,000 children, were evacuated from major cities into the countryside, where people opened their homes to them and took in as many extra people as they could. Reggie described the scene at the train station. Everywhere I looked were groups of bewildered looking children waiting to be evacuated. Many were crying with a fear of the unknown away from their families, whilst most had little brown labels tied to their coats which gave names and destinations that could be as far away as Norfolk or Scotland. I was unable to get any clips from children who were evacuated from London during the war. But I was able to find a YouTube video of some children who were evacuated during the Second World War in England. The link to the full video is in the show notes.

Evacuee 25:26

We were given a list of a change of clothes which we were supposed to have, but uh I don't think we possessed them. We didn't really know where we were going, you know. Maybe think we were going on a day out, not realizing we were going without my mum, you know. Oh, we all stood in a row like cattle, and all these women walked up and down. And if he was pretty, he was the first one to go. I mean and two little lads that were next to me, there was terrors. I think they was the last to go because nobody wanted two boys, two brothers. But then this woman came, looked at me, and she said, Oh, she'll do there we are, stuck on somebody's farm, didn't know who the people were. And they didn't take to us, you know, them country people. Didn't like us towns.

Wendy Cee 26:10

As well as these recordings, I also found a written first-hand account of a child who was evacuated from London during the Second World War. This is now going to be read by a friend of mine.

Millie 26:22

In 1938, all school children were issued with gas masks. Neville Chamberlain had just returned from Munich with his famous piece of paper. Education at this time called for pupils of eleven years of age to take an entrance examination, the eleven plus, which would stream them to other more senior schools. I was given the right to a free place in a grammar school if I could pass that entrance examination. So I ended the entrance exams for a number of local grammar schools. The first exam result came through from a school in Berwash, and my father suggested that I join that school at once as war was looming on the horizon. Operation Pied Piper was put into effect just days after my entry to the school. One September morning we were hired into buses for the railway station and then trained for our unknown destination. Other members of my family were sent elsewhere. My elder sister was evacuated to Hastings, my two younger sisters sent Helsham in Sussex. I was on my way to Berwash, Sussex. We arrived at the destination, wearing our identity labels and carrying our few belongings in fibre suitcases, and of course, our gas masks in a small carboard box strung around the neck. We must have looked a scruffy bunch because the journey of only sixty miles or so had taken a very long time. We were lined up for inspection by the villagers who selected the child or children of their choice. My first house was with a family with two sons who tormented me unmercifully. I wasn't allowed to arrive home without my letter being read to the landlady. However, I managed to smuggle him a letter to my dad who came to the village and arranged for me to be moved. The next home was with a very kind couple at the end of the Berbosh village. He was a chauffeur for a lady who lived in a big house at the end of the driveway. They had one daughter, aged about fifteen, who was very friendly to me. In fact, the family treated me as a second daughter. My mum and dad came down to see me as often as they could. The school arranged special parents' trips, and they would also send me a shilling each week. They now had their family spread out all over Sussex. The school held the classes in a large mansion in Berwash Common. My lodgings were at the corner of the country lane, which led to a house of the famous writer and poet, Rudyard Kipling. Sadly, with the war going badly for the Allies, we were determined by the authorities that we should be moved from the south of England and we in trade for a village in South Wales. There I stayed until deciding to return to London to live with my mother, after my father was called away to Scotland to work in the doctor. It seems to me that my childhood memories of World War II are most vividly tied up with the loss and return of my father. He was recalled for training two months before war was declared in September 1939. I was ten and my sister was eleven years old. After two home leaves we saw him off from one of the big London stations for some unknown destination, the train was packed with waving troops as it pulled away. Almost six years later, and after the VED celebrations, the three of us went to bring him back home, as I remember, from that same station. My sister was then seventeen, and I sixteen years old. All that we experienced on the home front during these six years remained indelible to us, who were children, and the things that we learned later from my father must ensure that World War II is never forgotten.

Wendy Cee 29:56

Violet, Charlie Junior, Reggie and Ronnie ended up in Suffolk. The house was huge, bigger than most of the terrace in Valence Road, surrounded by a huge garden, fields and woodland. There were birds and animals. The air was clear, there was hardly any traffic. The boys were in awe. While Charlie, who was now fifteen, got a job in a local village shop and spent his spare time entertaining the local girls, Ronnie and Reggie spent their days playing. They would walk for miles exploring the countryside, climbing trees, building dens in hedgerows, fishing and paddling in rivers. In the winter they would make snowmen and go sledging on homemade sleds made by brother Charlie. I'm lucky enough to be able to include a short recording of Ronnie talking about his time in Suffolk as a child. This recording was done while Ronnie was in Broadmoor by the late Robin McGibbon, and you can listen to the full interview on the Kray Tapes.

Robin McGibbon & Ronnie Kray 30:53

Um can you remember the very first time that you went to the country? Uh when we were little kids we got evacuated to Suffolk. Nipson near Ipswich. What uh year was that we went to uh uh beginning of the war. Beginning of the war. And we went to uh Mr. Stowell's place in uh Suffolk to mention it. We stayed with another let you hear me. Charlie would be now I don't think Charlie was there, but me let you know. And uh Charlemagne, I don't know, I can't remember. But we stayed in this manhood first time we never went to country. We got to like the country, you know. What did you like about it? Oh the quietness, peacefulness of it, fresh air, nice scenery, countryside.

Wendy Cee 31:56

Ronnie and Reggie loved it there and would happily have stayed, but Violet was homesick and wanted to get back to London.

Charlie Kray 32:03

Charlie says, We'd been in Hadley for about a year when rumours of a German invasion on the coast started sweeping the village. Mum got more and more worried until one day she announced that she would be taking us back to London.

Wendy Cee 32:16

So a year or so after they left, they found themselves back in the east end of London. Reggie describes the scene. No fields but acres of brick and rubble bomb sites to scrubble over and dig into. The Second World War finally ended on the 8th of May 1945, VE Day, when the twins were 11 years old. Here is the announcement from Winston Churchill of this momentous occasion.

News Reader 32:54

From number 10 Downing Street, the Prime Minister makes the momentous announcement for which the world had been waiting.

Winston Churchill 33:01

Yesterday morning at 2 41 a.m. at General Eisenhower's headquarters, General Jodel, the representative of the German High Command and of Grand Admiral Dernitz, the designated head of the German state, signed the act of unconditional surrender of all German land, sea, and air forces in Europe to the Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command. Hostilities will end officially at one minute after midnight tonight, Tuesday, the 8th of May. We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing. Today is victory in Europe Day. Tomorrow will also be victory in Europe Day. But let us not forget for a moment the toils and efforts that lie ahead. Japan, with all her treachery and greed, remains unsubdued. The injuries she has inflicted upon Great Britain, the United States, and other countries, and her detestable cruelties call for justice and retribution. We must now devote all our strength and resources to the completion of our tasks, both at home and abroad. Advance, Britannia! Long live the cause of freedom. God save the king.

Wendy Cee 34:47

Thank you for listening to the Krays Web. This was episode 2, Terrible Twos. Next week, in episode 3, you're in the army now, I will be discussing the twins' teenage years. Finally, I want to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me to put this podcast together. Please check out the show notes and my website for more information on the books and reference material that I used for my research. Until next time, stay safe.