Seeing Stars

Fame attracts power — and power attracts fame.

In Episode 7 of The Krays Web, we step into the glitz and glamour surrounding the Kray twins, exploring their surprising and often uneasy connections to celebrities, actors, and public figures.

Behind the nightclubs and flashing cameras lies a darker truth — where fame, fear, and influence collide.

In this episode:
• The Krays’ obsession with celebrity and status
• Their connections to film, television, and music stars
• Stories involving Barbara Windsor and her links to the twins
• Encounters with figures from British entertainment and beyond
• The role of clubs in attracting high-profile guests
• Iconic moments, including the famous Kray photograph
• How celebrity connections masked — and enabled — criminal power

Why it matters:
This episode reveals how the Krays blurred the line between crime and celebrity — building legitimacy through fame while hiding violence in plain sight.

Follow the show for more deep-dive episodes into the truth behind the Kray twins.

Next episode: Frances, the relationship that would become one of the most tragic and defining parts of the Kray story - Obsessed

Links to Resources

Check out my website for resources used and social media links : thekraysweb.com

Contact me : wendyceepods@gmail.com

Music by Captain Fat Hands captainfathands.com

Transcript

Wendy Cee 0:24

Welcome to the Krays Web, a podcast about the infamous Kray twins and those associated with them. I'm your host, Wendy Cee, and this is season one, The Krays, episode seven, Seeing Stars. Please note that there is some swearing in this podcast and descriptions of violence. I'll be adding specific trigger warnings where needed. The voices that you hear throughout the podcast are my family and friends who have rallied around to help me to make this podcast more enjoyable for you to listen to. I've used lots of sources when writing these episodes, far too many to list here, but details of which you'll be able to find on my website, the kraysweb.com. Whilst most criminals prefer to stay under the radar, the Krays love the celebrity lifestyle and like nothing more than hobnobbing with the rich and famous. With their business empire including various London clubs, they had the perfect opportunity to meet, greet and charm all manner of guests, befriending them, treating them like royalty, and occasionally even lavishing them with gifts. They loved to be seen and were often photographed with film stars, TV personalities, singers and politicians. In this episode, we are going to explore just some of the many famous and infamous people that they met. The actress Barbara Windsor was perhaps one of the most famous actors that the Krays were involved with. A true East End, Barbara is probably best known in the UK for her character Peggy Mitchell in the soap opera East Enders. However, for the older listeners, from 1964 to 1975, she was of course in the carry-on films. I was wondering how to describe these films to you, but then I found someone called Extra Spectacles had summed it up perfectly on Reddit. The carry-on series was a collection of films that date from the 1950s to the 1980s. They were film-length equivalents of situation comedy or sitcoms, where a bunch of misfit characters would fall into the typical tropes of the contemporary caricatures of the prevailing zeigeist of the experience of the British class system. These included the uptight posh people turning their nose up at working class antics and being authoritarian or buffoons. Working class people being basically cheeky, saucy, or a bit criminal. The situations in their films changed each time to show this clash of cultures in different settings. They sometimes satirized other films of the period, such say spy or police genres, but most often they just picked a situation where many people could be brought together and comical events could occur. Of course, the humour of the time was what we'd nowadays consider as racist, classist, sexist, homophobic, and pretty much any kind of ist you can think of. What made the carry-on films special to those of us who watched them growing up was that many of the actors were not only big stars of screen and stage, but would often, if not always, play the same kind of character in each film with similar catchphrases and antics. For instance, Sid James would often play the dirty old man, Barbara Windsor would play the sexy blonde floosie, Kenneth Williams, the upper class twit, Charles Hawtree, the bespectacled Tenstone Weakling, Leslie Phillips, the charming seducer or spiv. Joan Sims, the frumpy, long-suffering wife, Hattie Jacks, the stem no nonsense matriarch, and of course, many others. You have to remember that TV wasn't very prevalent in the early days of Carry-On, and they were like sitcoms that you got to watch at the cinema. Like sitcoms with the same characters getting into absurd situations and acting in stupid and slapstick ways. Imagine a sitcom full of crass jokes where each time the setting was different, the premise was mostly different, but the same ragtag bunch of characters turned up and caused some version of mayhem and occasionally a romantic entanglement, where the baddies got their comeuppance and the worthy got their rewards.

Barbara Windsor 4:26

Absolutely wonderful, except carry on camping. I'll never forget that film as long as I live. We made it in November. It was freezing. They made it in a field at the back of the studios, and it was pouring rain all the time, and they sprayed the mud with green paint. But I tell you, I see that film, it looks wonderful.

Wendy Cee 4:48

Barbara, who is sadly no longer with us, was petite, blonde, and beautiful, with a cheeky sense of humour, so you can see why the craze were attracted to her. Her career started in 1959 in the musical Things Ain't What They Used To Be, which is when she was first associated with the Krays. I did find an early interview of Barbara's where she talks a little about the Krays. In this interview she sounds very posh compared to her East End upbringing and how she sounded in later life. I assume it's because at the beginning of her acting career, she was probably told that she would get more work if she toned it down.

Barbara Windsor 5:21

I was in things in what they used to be, and it was all about gangsters and words. And Ryan Reddy and Charlie Kray came to see it, and they asked him to be introduced to me and they gave me a thorough gentleman.

Wendy Cee 5:32

And then just before Barbara started working on the carry-on films, she was in a movie called Sparrows Can't Sing, which was filmed in the East End of London, which has a cray story all of its own. On the first day of filming, a number of black cars pulled up to the set and six men in sharp dark suits emerged from them. Two of the men demanded to know who was in charge and were pointed to the director Peter Mendak, who they then questioned over who had given them permission to film there. Peter said obviously the police, because we have permission for filming in all the streets of the East End, and the men replied, Nobody asked us, and you could get in big trouble. When Peter asked what kind of trouble, the reply was like getting killed. Those two men were Ronnie and Reggie Kray, and Peter was forced to employ two of their minders as protection. Some of the film was shot in the Kray's headquarters, the Kentucky Club, with the minders acting as extras on set. In Barbara's autobiography, she wrote about the Krays.

Barbara Windsor 6:31

The twins and their brother Charlie had stars in their eyes. And when Ron heard that the premiere for The Sparrows Can't Sing was being held at the ABC, opposite the Kentucky Club, he suggested that Kentucky throw a party. In the end, Princess Margaret caught a diplomatic cold and stayed away. She goes on to say. Lots of celebrities, including Roger Moore, Stanley Baker, and Ronnie Fraser, went to the Kentucky, dined on Jelly Deal and Fish and Chips, and drank, courtesy of the brothers Kray, until the early hours of the morning.

Wendy Cee 7:08

Barbara wasn't just friendly with the Krays, she had an intimate relationship with them too. Barbara had a one-night stand with Reggie before dating his older brother Charlie for around six months. Barbara went on to marry Ronnie Knight, a notorious criminal who was a member of the gang who pulled off the £7 million security express robbery that I will cover in a later season. As well as Barbara Windsor, there were some other actors from the East Enders soap opera that had associations with the Krays. Mike Reed, who played Frank Butcher in EastEnders, a wheeler dealer who liked to think of himself as one of the big players in the business world. Mike was in and out of the show a few times and in one iteration actually played Peggy Mitchell's Love Interest, which was Barbara Windsor's character. Before getting his break into acting, Mike's life was very different, working various jobs such as a lorry driver and a coalman, before moving into a life of crime. He was in fact jailed when a car he was travelling in was stopped and safe cracking equipment was found. When Mike was released from prison, he started to tour the pubs of the East End as a comic and a singer, before moving on to cruise liners, and also becoming a stunt man on films like Spartacus and the Dirty Dozen, which led to his acting career. Mike Reed was quoted as saying, One side of me would have loved the notoriety of being one of the cray firm, but the other side was grateful that I was never asked to get involved. I often bumped into the twins when I went for a drink in the Regency, the club that the Barry brothers owned. And it would be safe to say that we were on more than nodding terms, but not to the extent where they might have said, No, Mike, you can't walk away. We need you to do this or that. It never happened, and when I look back at the Lambrianis, who got life sentences just for being in a certain place with no kids and younger than I was, I thank the god I don't believe in. I say I was never asked, but there was an instant where I put myself forward. I was in the Nag Zed over Frinsby Park, having a quiet drink before I went home. Reggie, Ronnie, and I think Connie Whitehead came in and sat in a corner. Regg raised his hand to me and Ronnie just stared. Christ that look went right through you. I was just thinking about leaving when half a dozen geezers burst in, looked round and went straight for the twins. Then it was off. Bosh, the table's gone over as they got stuck into the boys. Connie wasn't a big fella, so the odds were a bit uneven, and I waded in and started throwing a few rights. My bit of help may not have been needed, because Reg and Ron could have a fight, but I was always a mug for getting involved. It was all over in five minutes and the mob was seen off. We dusted ourselves down, Reg brought me a drink, and that was the end of it. I wasn't invited to join the firm, and it was never mentioned again, but I don't think it was forgotten. He also said I got into a game of cards with Reggie, Ronnie, and a couple of others on their firm. I was playing a blinder, poker, I think it was, and as the evening wore on, this pile of money in front of me was growing and growing. It got to two o'clock, three o'clock, and I was still ahead, but I was in a bit of a dilemma. Do I say to these fellas, Excuse me, chats, I'd better ring my wife and see if she'll let me stay out late. Or do I go against the unwritten law of card playing and walk out holding a large bunch of folding I've taken off these blokes? I wasn't sure which option scared me the most, her indoors or the twins. I looked at the two of 'em, giving it half a second's thought, and played on until about six in the morning. By then they'd nicked most of my weddings back off me, so they're well happy, but I'm in the shit. Mike stayed friends with the twins and visited them in prison. Then there was Bill Murray, no not that Bill Murray from Ghostbusters Fame. I'm talking about the British actor Bill Murray. As well as appearing in East Enders for a couple of years as Johnny Allen, a villainous gangster, and various films, again, usually as a criminal, he is actually best known for playing Don Beach on the other side of the law in The Bill, a long-running police drama series that followed the professional and personal lives of officers and detectives from a fictional suburb in the East End of London. The programme ended in 2010 after 27 years on the TV. Bill met the twins when he was a teenage boxer, and after starting to go down the wrong path, the Krays took him under their wing and paid £400 for him to go to East 17 acting school. He repaid the favour by being a defence witness for Charlie Kray at his drugs trial in 1997, something that we'll cover in a later season. Patsy Kensit, another actor who appeared briefly in East Enders in 2023, was also connected to the craze. Patsy started her acting career at the tender age of four as the daughter of Robert Redford and Mia Farrow in The Great Gatsby. She has had parts in many films and TV series over the years, but is best known for her roles as Nurse Faye Morton in Holby City, a soap opera that followed the everyday lives of doctors, nurses and patients who found themselves in the cardiac unit of a fictional hospital. Following this she played Sadie King, a major antagonist in the soap opera Immerdale, set in a small fictional village in the Yorkshire Dales. Her personal life is full of famous names. She has been married four times to Dan Donovan of the band Big Audio Dynamite, to Jim Kerr, lead singer of Simple Minds, to Liam Gallagher from the band Oasis, and then to DJ Jeremy Healy. She has two children, one with Liam, whose godmother is the actress Elizabeth Hurley. So I know what you're thinking. What has this got to do with the Krays? Well Patsy's father James, better known as Jimmy the Dip, came from a background of crime. His father was a robber and counterfeiter, and Jimmy himself was an associate of both the Krays and the Richardsons. In fact, Reggie Kray is Patsy's godfather. Jimmy is most notorious for his part in the Great Train Robbery, something I will be covering in a later season. From East Enders to Hollywood, the Krays were associated with lots of famous actors. They knew Sir Michael Cain, a legendary actor who started his acting career a lot later than Patsy, but has then gone on to star in many films, including the Ipcrest Phile, various Batman films, and The Muppet's Christmas Carol. I found this interview where Michael was asked about meeting the twins.

Michael Caine 13:49

I met him about three or three or four times, but I tr I tried very hard to leave not to become a close friend. Because they they were scary. They were scary.

Wendy Cee 14:00

And in another interview he said. But there are other associations that are more unusual. Many well-known faces frequented the Krays establishments, one of the most famous being the actor and singer Judy Garland, probably best known for her role in Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz in 1939. Flan, a friend of the family, says this in her book.

Flan 14:48

The twins took Judy Garland from the palladium to their mum in Valence Road and said, Mum, we've brought you your favourite singer. Violet told me I looked at this tiny frail little creature, she looked half starved. I said, Ronnie, don't tell me we'll find that's not Judy Garland. I gave her a cup of tea and she said, What's your favourite song? I said, Over the rainbow. She took my hand and sang the song. There in my little East End kitchen was Judy Garland, the most famous singer in the world singing to me. That Ronnie would do anything to make me happy. Then they took her to the Aster Club. I will never forget Violet telling me that she wanted to tell Judy she needed a few hot stews inside her. Judy by this time was an alcoholic and she was on drugs and weighed seven stone. Not long after this, she died.

Wendy Cee 15:43

Can you imagine your child just turning up at your door with your favourite singer who then sings just for you in your kitchen? What an amazing experience. The Krays wined and dined with the one and only Frank Sinatra, and their bodyguard business, Krayley Enterprises, which they ran from prison, supplied Frank with 18 bodyguards in 1985. Ronnie Corbett, CBE, a Scottish comedian and actor, had a very different experience with the Krays. Ronnie started off in pubs and clubs on the circuit but went on to become a comedy legend as part of the TV comedy duo The Two Ronnies, alongside Ronnie Barker. On this particular night in the early 1960s, Ronnie was playing at a club in London called Winston's, which according to its advertising poster was London's gayest night spot and had a new American cocktail bar. During his set, someone threw a bread roll at Ronnie Corbett, which he immediately picked up and threw back. Unfortunately for him, it hit Ronnie Kray right in the face. I found this interview with Barry Cryer, another comedian from that time who was at the club that night.

Barry Cryer 16:58

Ron was on the little glass Winston's one night, and somebody threw a bread roll and hit her in the face, Ronnie Corbett, and he threw it back and hit Ronnie Kray in the face, and they laughed.

Wendy Cee 17:08

The interview is from My Time Capsule podcast. Luckily, Ronnie Kray loved Ronnie Corbett, so he just laughed along with everyone else. But knowing how volatile Ronnie Kray could be, it sounds like Ronnie Corbett was very lucky that night. Barry also went on to say They used to invite you somewhere.

Barry Cryer 17:26

This is 3 a.m. after our show. Oh mate, I've got to be up early in the told me. Don't go anywhere with them. You're on your own territory here with Danny and the gang. Stay there. Don't go anywhere with the craze. God knows what would happen.

Wendy Cee 17:44

And then there was David Bailey, the amazing photographer who was taking some of the most iconic images of hundreds of famous people, including the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Kate Moss, Nelson Mandela, Michael Caine, and Bill Gates. David grew up in the East End and met the craze through a friend, Francis Wyndham, who had been asked to write their autobiography. They became good friends and David would go and have tea with their mother Violet. He was then asked to photograph the wedding of Francis and Reggie, which of course he did. Later in 1968, the Sunday Times magazine wanted to do a feature on the twins and asked David and his assistant John to spend a couple of weeks following them around taking pictures. In David's book Look Again, he has a chapter called Reg and Ron.

Charlie Kray 18:32

The twins were at the height of their fame and they were being hunted down by two detectives from the yard called Gerald and Reed, who badly wanted to put them away, to the point of hiding in dustbins to collect evidence. As ever, the Kray thought they had immunity through their famous acquaintances, who they had themselves photographed with whenever possible, which was increasingly upsetting for the authorities. So their relationship with me wasn't helping at all.

Wendy Cee 18:55

They first met in a seedy East End pub. David alleges that during the day Ronnie was very taken with John and kept stroking his hair and saying he was going to take him home.

Charlie Kray 19:10

I wasn't going to take any chances with either of them. You had to watch Ron. He was nutty as a fucking fruitcake. John had long hair then. He's quite small. And when Ron came over and started stroking his hair and saying, I'm going to take him home tonight, he fucking shit himself.

Wendy Cee 19:26

Davis said that John later confided in him that the barman in the pub said he had known Ronnie since they were five years old. They were very close, and that they were in the army together. The barman allegedly said to John, I'll tell you how close we were. I used to hold the soldiers down while he buggered them. That day there was an incident in the pub where a scalsa started verbally abusing David about him coming to London in a Rolls Royce, and before he could say anything, Reggie intervened, smacking the abuser in the face, blood spraying everywhere. Then Ronnie wanted a piece of the action and grabbed him and banged his head against the piano that was in the bar. David said the twins then dragged the man outside, and when they came back.

Charlie Kray 20:05

Then the cooks came out with their mops. It was all blokes cleaning up with brooms and mops. John was so scared. His knees went and he dropped the 104 Nick and Lens he was carrying. Regg came back and he had blood on the sleeve of his white shirt.

Wendy Cee 20:18

David and John never saw that man again. It was during this time with the Krays that David took the infamous black and white photo that is synonymous with the twins. Ronnie is stood front centre wearing a dark suit and tie with a white shirt. Reggie is stood behind over Ronnie's right shoulder, with his head slightly cocked to the right, wearing a lighter suit, dark tie and white shirt. The picture is headshots only. After Ronnie and Reggie were arrested, David was bothered by an East End thug called Dennis the Painter, who claimed to work for the twins. Dennis threatened David, telling him if he didn't get the negatives to their photos, he would be slashed.

Charlie Kray 21:05

I didn't know where they were going to kill him. I just said to Reg, just tell him to stop coming around to see me.

Wendy Cee 21:10

Much later in life, David found out the truth about an incident that happened when he was just thirteen years old, and it involved the Krays. His dad rang dances in the East End halls. One night there was some trouble, so he and his mate, who was a policeman, threw the troublemakers out. Later when his dad was alone clearing up the hall, he was jumped and had a pint glass smashed in his face. The wound required sixty-eight stitches. The perpetrator was Reggie Kray. Him and Ronnie were nineteen at the time of the incident, and both ended up serving two months inside for the attack. In an article that David did with The Guardian, he was asked what he thought of the craze and said I quite like Reg.

Charlie Kray 21:51

Ron was a basket full of rattlesnakes.

Wendy Cee 22:01

And these are just a few of the many celebrities that the Krays found themselves involved with in one way or another. Others included Joan Collins, George Raft, Cliff Richard, David Essex, Peter Sellers, Debbie Harry, Shirley Bassey, Richard Burton, Diana Dawes, and MP Lord Boothby, whose relationship with Ronnie Kray caused a huge political scandal, which will be covered in another season. In Ronnie's book, My Story, there is a chapter called Seeing Stars. Here are some quotes from that.

Ronnie Kray 22:31

I remember back in the 60s, a world-famous pop star came to see me and Rich and asked us if we could let him have a gun. We asked him what for, and he told us he and another fella had a row over some woman, and he wanted to shoot the other bloke. No way were me and Reggie going to do time for a nutcase like that. Even if he was a nice fella. He speaks fondly of Diana Dawes. Diana Dawes was one of our favourite show business people. A great actress and a very special person. Reggie first spotted her singing at the rim of the top at Ilford, and he came home raving about this fantastic girl with platinum blonde hair.

Wendy Cee 23:05

Ronnie claims that they helped David Essex get his first gig. David is an English singer-songwriter and actor who went on to have 19 top 40 singles in the UK.

Ronnie Kray 23:15

Mia Reg gave him his first signing break in our club, the El Morocco in Gerrard Street Solo. We called it that because it reminded us of some happy times we had in Morocco. David was one of the first entertainers we signed up to do a regular spot. He was a complete unknown then. I'll never forget when me and Reg once bought a horse called Soulway Cross for our mum. We had it trained in Epsom, but we thought we'd bought a bummer when it came last in its first race. So we decided to raffle it one night at the Cambridge rooms to make some money for charity. Ronnie, Ronald Fraser, won the raffle, but he was so pissed I don't think he realised it. He woke up the next morning with a race horse and he hadn't got a clue what to do with it.

Wendy Cee 24:03

Even Eric Clapton knew the craze.

Ronnie Kray 24:06

Eric Clapton made one of his earliest appearances at our club, Esmeralda's Barn. That was thanks to a fella called Laurie O'Leary who managed the club for us. Laurie's brother Alfie ended up taking a job with Eric Clapton and he travelled all over the world with him.

Wendy Cee 24:21

And of course, we must mention photographer David Bailey, who Ronnie says.

Ronnie Kray 24:25

David Bailey, the society and fashion photographer, has also been a close friend. David has settled down now, but he was a real chat of lad when he was younger. I remember Reggie once asked him what his hobby was. David replied, Sex.

Wendy Cee 24:39

This chapter of Ronnie's book is like a who's who from that time, listing pages and pages of celebrities and his and Reggie's encounters with them. But I want to end this episode where I started it with Barbara Windsor, the beautiful petite blonde East End actress who Ronnie said.

Ronnie Kray 24:55

Of course, one of our very best friends has always been the actress, Barbara Windsor. She and her ex-husband, Ronnie Knight, sent flowers to our mother's funeral, and all the time we've been away, Barbara has campaigned harder than anyone to get freedom from Reg.

Wendy Cee 25:09

Ronnie and Reggie have friends from all walks of life, from gangsters to the man in the street, to A-list celebrities and politicians, and they valued each and every one of those friendships. Reggie wrote a poem called Friendship. Friendship is an eternity of sorts, valueless unlike money. A true friendship never aborts his friend. Friendship is stronger than steel. Steel will break in the end. But what better bond than a true friend? Friendship is entirely, utterly selfless, helps you straighten out when you're in a mess. What more to say? Friendship isn't words, it's feeling, sharing, caring, understanding, and believing. Friendship's qualities I can't define, but I have a friend called Ron who's a true friend of mine. And if you look closely, ever so closely at Ron, you'll see diamonds and gold are as none when compared to the friendship I share with Ron. Thank you for listening to The Krays Web. This was episode seven, seeing stars. Next week in episode eight, Obsessed, I will be discussing Reggie Kray's first girlfriend, Frances. Finally, I just want to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me to put this podcast together. Please check out the show notes on my website for more information on the books and reference material that I used for my research. Until next time, stay safe.