Porridge

Prison was supposed to be the end… but the story didn’t stop there.

In Episode 15 of The Krays Web, we follow Ronnie and Reggie Kray into prison — where separation, survival, and influence shaped the next chapter of their lives.

From violent clashes and mental health struggles to continued power behind bars, this episode reveals how the Krays adapted to life on the inside — and how their legacy continued beyond the streets.

In this episode:
• Where each member of the Firm was sent after sentencing
• Ronnie’s struggles in prison and his deteriorating mental health
• Reggie’s adjustment to prison life and changing behaviour
• Violence, rivalries, and the prison pecking order
• Efforts to reunite the twins — and the impact of separation
• Ronnie’s transfer to Broadmoor and life inside a psychiatric hospital
• The twins’ continued influence and business dealings from prison
• Their relationships, admirers, and life behind bars

Why it matters:
This episode shows that imprisonment didn’t end the Krays’ story — it transformed it. Power, notoriety, and influence followed them inside, revealing a more complex and human side to their legacy.

Follow the show to continue exploring the untold stories behind the Kray twins — beyond the headlines and into the reality.

Links to Resources

Check out my website for resources used and social media links : thekraysweb.com

Contact me : wendyceepods@gmail.com

Music by Captain Fat Hands captainfathands.com

Transcript

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Wendy Cee 0:24

Welcome to the Krays Web, a podcast about the infamous Kray twins and those associated with them. I'm your host, Wendy C, and this is season one The Krays, episode 15, Porridge. Please note that there is some swearing in this podcast and descriptions of violence. I'll be adding specific trigger warnings where needed. The voices that you hear throughout the podcast are all my family and friends who have rallied around to help me to make this podcast more enjoyable for you to listen to. I've used lots of sources when writing these episodes, far too many to list here, but details of which you'll be able to find on my website, thecraysweb.com. Following the trial, each member of the firm took their own individual route through the prison system to serve their sentences. Ronnie Kray was sent to the special wing at Durham due to his schizophrenia. Reggie Kray was sent to Parkhurst, Charlie Kray was sent to Chelmsford, Freddie Foreman was sent to Leicester, Connie Whitehead was sent to Hull, and Chris and Tony Lambrianu were sent to separate wings in Wandsworth. In this episode, I'm going to concentrate on Ronnie and Reggie, but I will be doing episodes in between seasons on some of the other members of the firm, where I will discuss their journeys in more detail there. When he felt miserable, he would paint a black sun in the sky. Only one thing worried him. Of course, being locked up wasn't the end of Ronnie and Reggie's stories. In episode nine I discussed the relationships that the twins had while behind bars, both of them getting married during their stays at Her Majesty's pleasure. In this episode I'm going to tell you some of the antics that the pair got up to over the years while serving their sentences. Initially, when the twins were locked up, a band list of visitors was put in place, fifty people who were to be refused visiting rights, including ex-firm members, journalists who supported them, ex-girlfriends, etc. Basically anyone that the Home Office felt might be a risk and helped the twins to plan an escape. But the system was easily overridden, because those smart enough just used a fake name, and without computers to check images, they usually just managed to visit anyway. Separated, Reggie was happy, but Ronnie wasn't, and their mother Violet campaigned to get them moved to the same place. And of course she also had Charlie in prison too. Can you imagine what that poor lady went through? Three prison visits a week to three different prisons in three very different parts of the country. Her only three surviving children all locked up. Ronnie struggled to settle in Durham, and not long after he arrived ended up in a fight with a fellow prisoner, Mike Copeland, who had also been convicted of murder. Ronnie was fined three pounds and Copeland was moved to another prison. Then Ronnie had another fight, this time with inmate John Richard Jones, because he made a comment about Francis Kray, and Ronnie reacted. Then Ronnie seemed to settle down. Ronnie said this about Durham.

Ronnie Kray 4:04

Durham prison is a bastard place and some right bastards work there. From the word go, certain of the screws made it very clear that they were gonna kick the shit out of me every chance they got. Never one-on-one, of course, no. Just a gang of them against me. They saw me as a hard man who would have to be broken. Not a fellow who could be sick in the head, with depression, who needed treatment. There was a senior officer called Chief Bunker. On one occasion, when four or five screws were giving me a good kicking while I lay on the floor trying to curl up and protect my head, I heard him shout out, That's enough, stop beating him. I've never forgotten that one single act of decency, and even now I still send him a Christmas card every year.

Wendy Cee 4:48

As Reggie began his sentence, Frances's mother Elsie petitioned the Home Office to get her daughter reburied away from the Kray family plot with the name Shay instead of Kray. Sadly, as Reggie owned the plot, he had to agree, and of course, he didn't. Around October 1970, Reggie was moved from Parkhurst to Leicester, shortly followed by Ronnie being moved from Durham to Parkhurst when the special wing closed, just missing his brother.

Ronnie Kray 5:16

Ronnie says In 1972, I was finally moved to Parkhurst prison on the Isle of Wight. I know the island itself is an attractive little place, but the prison is an old and dismal place. Reg hadn't got on too bad there, but I had a lot of problems right from the start. The screws were nearly as bad as the ones in Durham, and there was also aggravation from other cons.

Wendy Cee 5:38

Violet continued to petition the Home Office, but they replied that there was no entitlement for the brothers to serve the sentences together. And then someone on the outside took matters into their own hands, threatening to kidnap Princess Margaret's son, Viscount Lindley, suggesting that he would be held hostage until the crays were released. Reggie's reaction to this was not what you would expect. He did not support this and went on hunger strike until the threats were revoked. And he was having his own issues settling in prison too. He had a fight with armed robber Pete Hurley following a row over a doughnut, and then he had another fight with John Dudley, who was convicted of the murder of three police officers near Wormwood Scrubs. I guess it takes time for the pecking order to settle down when new inmates are introduced into the mix. After being moved from the special wing at Durham, Ronnie was struggling in Parkhurst and his illness was starting to spiral, and with Reggie getting into fights in Leicester, it was decided to put the twins together in Parkhurst to see if they would regulate each other, but it wasn't to be. Reggie attacked a fellow inmate with a bottle, and Ronnie's illness was taking over his thoughts, and whilst Reggie being there did help him a little, it wasn't enough, and he attacked a prison guard and ended up in solitary confinement for fifty six days. But the Kray's influence spread much further than just the jail they were in. An inmate in Brixton, there on fraud charges, was jabbed in the eyes by someone hired by the twins. Nowhere was safe. In November 1972, John Pearson released his book The Profession of Violence, and initially annoyed, the twins soon realized the kudos it gave them and were actually quite pleased. This book has been one of many that I have used when writing this podcast and became the most read book in prison libraries and the book most commonly stolen from bookshops. But both were fed up with the routine in prison and the people that they were there with. They were both stressed, Reggie Bazarly more so than Ronnie, and they both wanted Rule 43 imposed. Rule forty three allows for the segregation of prisoners when prison authorities consider it necessary to maintain order and discipline. On the thirteenth of march nineteen seventy two, the prison governor wrote that he didn't think the self-imposed isolation would last long, and he was right in Ronnie's case, because just nine days later he was transferred to the prison hospital as his mental health deteriorated. Reggie remained in isolation. A year later, on the 17th of April 1973, Ronnie was found in bed with another prisoner and was warned that if it happened again then he would be placed on Rule 43. And then on the 22nd of May, Ronnie and Reggie were in a cell together when armed robbers Stuart Grantham looked in on them. He was seen as a grass and the twins took this opportunity to show him the error of his ways. When the prison guards entered the cell, they found Reggie, naked, sat astride Stuart punching him while fellow prisoners were joining in. The official report said, quote, what then transpired is not known, but Grantham came out of the cell with severe cuts to the side of his face which required thirty-six stitches in his face and nine in his left hand, subsequently found to have been inflicted with a broken bottle. End quote. Both Ronnie and Reggie lost 28 days' privileges for the event. By February 1974, both twins were depressed, and so the Home Office authorised a visit from their older brother Charlie on doctor's recommendations to try and help their mood. Ronnie says this about his time in Parkhurst.

Ronnie Kray 9:20

In my time at Parkhurst, they did me for about 20 assaults and one charge of GBH, but that was only what they did me for. In the seven years I was in Parkhurst, I got involved in a lot more scraps than that. I also smashed up my cell a few times in frustration. Really did it over. I couldn't help myself.

Wendy Cee 10:05

Ronnie says this about the lead-up to his move.

Ronnie Kray 10:08

I sank into a hella depression, the worst I've ever known. All I could see was years and years in front of me as a category A con with constant supervision, restricted visits, no perks, and constant harassment. It was just a hopeless existence. My paranoia was getting worse all the time. My head hurt me. The pain was bad. I could feel the walls closing in on me. I could feel trouble all around me. I felt round every corner someone was waiting to jump me. I had some more fights with screws, more choky, and then I had a real bad fight with another con. I can't remember what it was about, but I think I hurt him bad. After that, they gave up on me. The medical officer at Parker said I was insane. Said I was a menace and they were gonna get rid of me. On the 25th of July 1979, they did.

Wendy Cee 11:02

The twins were feared on the inside, watched from the outside, and began to attract a lot of attention from young women. This is a phenomena that we still see today. Young, attractive male prisoners attracting beautiful young women. I haven't quite worked out why this happens, but I guess it has something to do with enjoying the notoriety of being associated with someone so infamous without the dangers involved. Of course, the craze still had a lot of influence on the outside, so this was still a risk. And I guess the prisoner feels some connection to the outside, the letters and gifts that they receive, making them feel wanted, special, and attractive.

Ronnie Kray 11:39

Ronnie said, I get hundreds of letters and I try and reply to some of them, but I wish people didn't write to me. I'm grateful for their support and their messages, but it's too much for me to try and reply to all of them.

Wendy Cee 11:50

As you heard in episode nine, both Ronnie and Reggie met and married women while they were in prison, but this was just the tip of a very large iceberg in terms of the fans that they had. In 1973, a lady called Stella was infatuated with Ronnie and tried to visit him, but the visit was refused. She turned to the newspapers and was quoted as saying, I want him and I'm prepared to marry him no matter how long I have to wait. Apart from Ronnie's own mother, I am the only woman in the world who cares for him. And then there was another lady, a heroin addict, who would write to Ronnie. He ended up buying her a hairdressing salon to try and help her kick her habit. And Reggie had many admirers too, including an old flame, Christine Boyce, who he gave permission to marry while he was in prison, as long as she was rid of her husband by the time he was released, and she was told to visit Reggie alone. Both Ronnie and Reggie wrote many letters while they were locked up, and there are still many circulating today. In fact, if you want to own a piece of Kray memorabilia, you can always find a few available to purchase on eBay or the Kray's Facebook pages. Ronnie was transferred to Broadmoor on the 25th of July 1979. He remembers the trip well.

Ronnie Kray 13:00

I will never forget the day I came to Broadmoor because no patient ever does. It was a lovely sunny day in 1979. I thought the sunshine was a good omen. I couldn't wait to get here. When they threw me out of Parker's, it was one of the happiest days of my life. They brought me here in a van with five screws. I remember we came over on the ferry from Ryde to Portsmouth. Me stuck in a prison van all the way, of course. And when we got to Portsmouth, there was a screw from Parker's on the harbour side, waiting to travel back to the Isle of Wight. The driver of the prison van stopped to talk to his screw and I heard the screw say, Who you got in there then? Another fucking geriatric. They all had a good laugh about that, but I thought it was me who was having a last laugh. I was getting away from Parkhurst. They were stuck with the godforsaken place.

Wendy Cee 13:48

Broadmore opened in 1963 and was one of the first institutions of its kind in the UK. It was built in the countryside as it was believed that the fresh country air was beneficial to the patients. Broadmore was a high security psychiatric hospital based in Berkshire, England, set in around 40 acres with a tall perimeter wall, a huge complex of large, imposing Victorian buildings accessed via a huge brick archway flanked by two large towers with a clock in the middle. The white barred arched windows, long and thin, scattering the facades of the buildings, built to house 500 patients, but often the population was more like 850. I found a description of the hospital from 1959. It was written by a visitor to the facility.

Kate 14:35

At about 850 patients at that time, in a hospital built for 500, and some 40 acres within the walls, there was a considerable scope for varied life for this long stay population. This included a wide range of workshops, kitchen gardens, a chapel choir, a choral group, a drama group, the broad humorists, recreational activities on each of the ward blocks, including table tennis and snooker tables, and a television in each ward. Groups of half a dozen escorted parole patients worked on the grounds outside the walls, though the former hospital farm was by then privately run. Musical instruments, hobbies and gardening were all encouraged, whilst a large sports field enabled football, cricket and athletics to take place. The whitewashed inside of the perimeter wall was claimed to be the largest sight screen in the country, whilst all matches were played at home. There were bowling greens on the terraces of both the male and female wings, whilst the women had the addition of a croquet lawn. The finals of the sporting competitions, as with the parole patients, dances in the central hall, were social functions that the hospital's officers were expected to attend with their spouses. The superintendents or the chaplain's wife usually presenting the prizes. The kitchens were also a patient's workplace and provided impressive refreshments for these occasions. In Ronnie's own words.

Ronnie Kray 16:08

The patients called Broadmore a funny farm because of the weird things that happen here. Sometimes they are amusing, sometimes they are sad. Often they are quite moving. I'll give you an example. One day I was sitting in a hut in the kitchen's gardens with a group of patients. Since I met my wife Kate, I've got interested in gardening. I like working on the plants and vegetables and watching them grow. It relaxes me. Anyway, we were just having a short break from our work, a cup of tea and a smoke. Suddenly, an old man called Chris got on his knees on the stone floor and started to pray. He's not a religious man, just a sinner. And a patient like the rest of us, but he was oblivious to everyone and everything. And it was the most spontaneous act of prayer I've ever seen in my life. That's the sort of thing you can only see in a funny phone. In the middle of all the hate and sadness, a moment of genuine emotion.

Wendy Cee 17:01

Broadmore suited Ronnie much better than prison. There were no warders or screws as he called them. There were nurses. Broadmore was under the supervision of the health department, not the home office. And patients were treated as just that, patients who were mentally unwell, with the aim of helping with their conditions. Whereas in prison, Ronnie's medical requirements were at the bottom of the list, and he was just treated like a troublemaker. Of course, everyone is different, but for Ronnie, Broadmore was a much more palatable and safe place for him to be. We have to remember that mental health issues were something that went on behind closed doors. It was something to be embarrassed about and nobody wanted to talk about it. Today it is no longer taboo and there are loads of organizations and options to get the help that you need. This is Ronnie's account of how his mental health issues affected him.

Ronnie Kray 17:49

My own reading has told me that schizophrenia means I have a split personality, a mind that can work in two ways virtually at the same time. In my case, when I'm going into depression, going into one, as I call it, one part of my mind creates suspicion, really bad suspicion that becomes paranoia. If I see two people talking together, my mind tells me they can be talking about me, can be plotting about me. Then my brain will tell me to go and stop them. They have shown me at Broadmoor how to recognise when I'm going into one, how to read the signs, how to control the paranoia I feel by taking drugs. I now know that medication to take and when to take it.

Wendy Cee 18:28

When he's settled in Broadmoor and made himself at home.

Ronnie Kray 18:32

My own room is very brightly coloured, and I have made it very comfortable. The colours I like are yellow and peach, and nearly everything in my room is in these colours. I have floral curtains and a floral bedspread. I have a few ornaments and a few photographs. I have my record player and my books. I spend more of my life in this room and I am happy here.

Wendy Cee 18:53

Flan visited Ronnie and Broadmore many times. She told me about it.

Flan 18:58

Me, Charlie, and Jack, we've come out, we've had a terrific visit. We've been laughing, he's in a terrific mood. I've got to go and buy him a belt, and I've got to go and buy him some more ties. I said, Ronnie, you've got at least a dozen ties. All silk, all Italian, all beautiful. One's what I've picked to go with navy. I'm good at that. Good at putting things together. I've got things to go with your lovely grey herringbone suit. Yeah. I bought him a pink tie once. He went, pink. I said, pink is the colour that goes with grey. You know your lovely grey suit that Barry's made you? Wait till you put your shirt on and put your pink tie on. I said, and I've bought you the hanky, because I always had the hanky. Yeah. I bought you the pink hanky to go with it. I said, now you can go to the disco Saturday now. And he used to say, disco, I'm not going to disco. He said, mad, all dancing around, um, all silly on their pills. On their pills. He had more medication in there than anybody else. So we've come out now in the foyer, and the guards were very lovely to Charlie Quay. They always used to come up, tell our Charlie, like that. Probably liked a bit of prestige if you know and did it. I look after Charlie Quay's brother. He always says uh goodnight to me and shakes my hand, all that jazz. So the shaking hand said, We don't really like to mention this, really. I thought, well, what's he done? She's done something wrong. We wondered if you could um settle up his canteen bill. So he said, Yeah, it's gone on a little long now. We didn't like to ask you, Charlie. We thought Ronnie might do it himself. So Jack Lee, he'd be in Jack Lee being an East End businessman who's come to meet him and loves going back and telling all his shop what happened that day. He said, Yeah. He said, Oh, yeah, I'll I'll give you something, Charlie. Now, Charlie Crane never had no money, remember, ever. Might have had a score. So he's pulled out a 50-pound note, Jack Lee. He said, Yeah. He said, I'll give that. He said, You got any money, Charlie? So he said, No, he said, I've only got a score. If I was gonna give Flanagan some money for the petrol, because I took them in my mini. I said, I don't want no money for petrol. He said, Oh, buy yourself a box of chocolates on the way home or something, whatever. He said, uh, but no, he said, uh, I don't want to give the £20. So Jack said, Well, look, take that off the bill. He said, and um, if I come next week, I'll give you another £50. He said, by the way, he said, how much is the bill? Seven grand seven grand. A canteen bill in Broadmoor, which is a prison hospital. How can it be seven grand? Seven grand. Well, we stood there, none of us knew what to say. Oh seven grand, Charlie Gray. Wait, seven grand? What's he been? What's he have? He said, Well, you do know he has the pork pie delivered every Friday night. On Friday nights, about six after your visitors have gone, you're allowed two people in your room, two other patients, not guards. You might have made a friend with somebody, and then well, of course, you had Charlie Smith, the young boy, who used to come with the tea and coffee and cakes. Who came to the funeral, first person in the church? He came from Broadmore, handcuffed, but he came. He said, Harrods deliver the pork pie every Friday night. Now, if you ring up Harrods and ask for a pound of tea, you to be delivered to um Sawbridge, we shall say, to your auntie who lives in Sawbridge. They have to deliver because they have a policy. Whatever you want, we will try our best to get it. Not a pink elephant, but a tortoise, or a rabbit, or some sort of dog, or any food. And they have to deliver it because that's their policy. But of course, you will be really charged every Friday night. So I looked at the thing, I said, he told us he has a pork pie, which he cuts into three, and they all have this lovely chunk you can imagine when it's like a pork pie from Harold. And you're allowed half a bottle of what? No beer, wine, each man. So, really, if you think of it, that's a bottle and a half, isn't it? Three men. But it's okay, they have a couple of guys and they have their little pork pie and they talk about whatever they talk about. It's certainly not about football, because Ronnie Reggie Kray was certainly not interested. Ever only wanted boxing. Oh, I went, well, I looked at Charlie. I said, I suppose they charge it's got to be 25 quid for the petrol. So the man looked at us. He said they charge £100 every Friday night. I said, for a pork pie, how much is the pork pie in Harrods? I'll go and get it. I'll drive to Harrods. I can park. I'll run in the food hall, buy the pork pie. He'll give me the money out of his what I call allowance, but people used to go there and slip him money each visit. Yeah. All the old boxers used to be sorry for him, give him money. They said, We don't know, we've never been asked to go and get the pork pie, but that's what they charge you. Well, £25 of that I know have to be petrol, had to be fuel. But you arrive in the Harrods Van, the people see the Harrods Van outside, they're delivering Ronnie Kray's pork pie. Then all these um ties um that he didn't get off of me, well, I didn't go and get them, and he's oh, if a man over there had a poor little mum sitting there with half of a half a chicken wrapped up in foil, you could bring your food in. And I'd look at her and I'd think, poor old cow, look at her. That's her son, he's only young, might be 25, he's committed murder, but he's mad. She's coming up here every week, poor old cow, on the train and then the bus down to the thing. It's pouring the rain, and she's got a little bit of chicken, it's wrapped out in silver foil. And you're allowed to bring cigarettes, obviously. She's bought him 10 fags. Ronnie Craig gets hundred. 100 players. Anybody that went to visit him, I said, Oh, whatever you do, take the players. They said, How many players are you supposed to bring? When I said hundred, people used to go, hundred. They wanted to take him twenty or fourty, you know. No, you've got to take hundred. Oh, uh okay. Old boxers like didn't have much money, but they got the hundred fags anyway. We'd go. And he'd sit there. And one day he looked and he went, Flynn. See that those people there? See the lady in the tweed coat? Yeah, the lady with the grey hair, yeah. Used us, his mum, obviously, because he's a young boy. She brings a little bit of chicken every week for him. Yeah. But it's raining today, and um, when she goes out of here, she has to get the bus to the station to get a train.

Wendy Cee 26:04

Reggie's stories of being inside are very different to Ronnie's and mainly talk about the other inmates and incidents that happened with them. When I think of a prison cell, I always imagine a tiny room with plain walls, barred windows, and a small single bed with scratchy looking covers. I've seen lots of pictures of Reggie's cells, and his were covered in soft furnishings, photographs, boxing gloves and letters. Furniture crammed into every square inch of the space to make it as cozy as possible. Reggie didn't have the luxury of open gardens to explore and Harold's food deliveries, but he made his life inside as comfortable as he could. If you think that removing Ronnie and Reggie Kray from the streets would end their business enterprises, you would be wrong. Whilst behind bars they continued to run their protection rackets and some of their other illegal activities by issuing demands and instructions to those on the outside. They also set up new business Krayley Enterprises, which I spoke about very briefly in episode seven. Krayley Enterprises run by Ronnie Reggie and Charlie Kray was a bodyguarding company that provided protection to celebrities and high profile individuals like Frank Sinatra, who employed Krayley Enterprises to supply 18 bodyguards to him and his entourage during his visit to the 1985 Wimbledon Tennis Championships. So even when they were locked up, they had enough influence and power to be able to operate businesses which gave them the ability to earn money. Yes, the Krays were murderers. Yes, the Krays ran some dubious businesses, but to their credit, they also did a lot of good for many charities. Here are just a few examples of some of the good that Ronnie and Reggie did over the years. Aberfan Disaster Fund, 1966. Following the Welsh School disaster, the Krays made one of the largest single donations to the Relief Fund, handing over £100, approximately £3,000 in today's money after attending a charity dinner. Local community support. The twins, particularly Ronnie, claimed to have raised £10,000 for the old people of Bethnal Green through various promotions. They frequently provided money to local families in need. Leukemia Research, the Krays were involved in organizing charity nights to raise money for leukemia research. And they liked to help those who were less fortunate than themselves, like Brad Lane, a young boy from the travelling community that had no contact with his own father. His mother, Kim, encouraged him to write to Reggie Kray and they became pen pals. Brad and Kim would go and visit Reggie, and when Kim died by suicide following an overdose, Reggie took Brad under his wing and would write to him and send him gifts. Another time Reggie heard of a young boy who had lost his leg in an accident, and he asked his wife, Roberta, to contact the boy's parents and arrange a wheelchair for him. So yes, they were murderers, and yes, they did unmentionable things to other gang members, but they also had a softer side. They wanted to help others, they wanted to spread their wealth. I've seen it said that Ronnie and Reggie Kray were like Robin Hood, taking from the rich and giving to the poor. But from what I've read and seen, many of those that they took from were not wealthy. They were individuals just trying to make a living to support their families, individuals who were terrified of the repercussions of saying no to the infamous Kray twins, terrified of what would happen to their livelihoods, their families, and themselves if they dared to say no. I want to end this episode with a final quote from each of the twins. Reggie.

Reggie Kray 29:43

However uncertain the years ahead are, I can still plan what I will do on eventual release. One of these plans will be to buy a large house in the country where any of my friends can stay if they wish to do so. Of course, that would depend on the cash situation at the time. Although it is generally thought that Ron and myself have unlimited capital, that is not the case. I won't deny that we have had considerable money in the past, but we've never been savers, and right at this moment we're both broke. Ronnie.

Ronnie Kray 30:15

So this is my life, and in my way I'm happy with it. As happy as I can be. My philosophy is this. I believe we're all just like actors on a stage. We are each given parts to play, and we have to play them to the best of our ability. We may not like the role we have been given, but we mustn't grumble about it. It is not up to us to question the part that has been given to us.

Wendy Cee 30:39

Thank you for listening to The Krays Web. This was episode 15, Porridge. Next week in episode 16, The End, Ronnie. I will be discussing the death of Violet and Ronnie Kray. Finally, I just want to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me to put this podcast together. Please check out the show notes and my website for more information on the books and reference material that I used for my research. And until next time, stay safe.