Interview with Paul Stickler

The case that finally brought them down — from the inside.

In this bonus episode of The Krays Web, we speak to Detective Inspector Paul Stickler, one of the officers involved in the investigation into the Kray twins.

From gathering evidence to building a case in an atmosphere of fear, this episode offers a rare, first-hand account of what it took to bring one of Britain’s most powerful criminal empires to justice.

In this episode:
• Paul Stickler’s role in the Kray investigation
• The challenges of policing organised crime in the East End
• Fear, silence, and witness intimidation
• How evidence was gathered against the Kray firm
• The impact of key informants and turning witnesses
• Behind-the-scenes insights into the case-building process
• Reflections on the trial and its outcome

Why it matters:
This episode gives a unique perspective from law enforcement — showing the determination, risk, and persistence required to finally dismantle the Kray empire.

Follow the show for more exclusive interviews and untold stories from those connected to the Kray twins.

Next bonus episode: A deep dive with an author who has studied the Krays in detail.

Links to Resources

Check out my website for resources used and social media links : thekraysweb.com

Contact me : wendyceepods@gmail.com

Music by Captain Fat Hands captainfathands.com

Transcript

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Wendy Cee 0:23

Welcome to the Krays Web, a podcast about the infamous Kray twins and those associated with them. I'm your host, Wendy C, and this is season one, The Krays, episode 19, interview of Paul Stickler. Please note that there is some swearing in this podcast and descriptions of violence. I'll be adding specific trigger warnings where needed. The voices that you hear throughout the podcast are all my family and friends who have rallied around to help me to make this podcast more enjoyable for you to listen to. I've used lots of sources when writing these episodes, far too many to list here, but details of which you will be able to find on my website, the crazeweb.com. The Krays have always fascinated me for a number of reasons. I'm going to share a few more of the ponderings that I've recorded during my research for this podcast before sharing with you an interview that I did with Paul Stickler, which I think you might find really interesting. This was a pondering from early July 2025, a year or so into my research. The Krays is one of those stories that you've heard that has always kind of fascinated me, and it's also fascinated me why people are still so fascinated in them. And I don't know what it is. I don't know whether it's their notoriety, I don't know if it's that they hang around with celebrities or the way that they just presented themselves. But there's so much about the Krays, but there's so many other people around at the time that you don't really hear much about, but their stories are as interesting, if not more interesting, than actually the Krays story alone. So my fascination with this has been sort of an ongoing thing, which I think it has for many, many people in the UK. And uh I just thought I'd start researching it, but I never ever thought it was gonna take me down all the rabbit holes that I've been down so far. And you know, I'm a long way off finishing this, and I'm pretty sure that there's gonna be a lot more to come. So yeah, watch this space. I think this is gonna be a long series, but I think it's gonna be really interesting, and I'm absolutely loving meeting such amazing people along the way. Everyone's so friendly and welcoming, and I'm just really enjoying getting to know people and understanding them and their lives. At times it all got a bit too much. It's the 13th of July 2025. I'm about a year into the research for this project now, and I'm a bit blown away and overwhelmed with everything. I have about 50 books now to read. I have loads of videos that I've managed to save and amazing photographs I've got from the Facebook groups I've been on to go through. I've met loads and loads of people. I've done some interviews already now, and I know it's gonna be brilliant when it's done, but wow, it's it's hard work. And trying to work out how everything fits together is um it's challenging, and it's like the biggest rabbit hole I think I've ever gone down, where every time I turn a corner there's somebody new to look into, another book to read. But yeah, I'm enjoying it, I'm really enjoying the research, and I hope that when this is finished, you're all gonna love it too, and really learn a lot from it. I just want to thank everybody that's helped me get this far with it, but there's still a long way to go. So I hope you've enjoyed this first season on the Krays Web. I have loads more to share with you, including interviews and book reviews. These will be released as miniseries as I have them ready. I would like to end this season with my interview with Paul Stickler. This is how I found him originally. 18th of October 2024, and I've been in touch with Paul Stickler. I saw an advert for somewhere in Basingstoke. He's gonna be doing a talk about the craze and the criminology behind what he thinks happened and why they became as famous as they did. And so I've reached out to him and hopefully I'm gonna be able to talk to him at some point about the work he's done on that. And he came back almost straight away. Well, the good news is that Paul came back to me straight away and we've got an interview booked in on the 22nd of October 2024. And basically he's a retired detective who's now been doing a criminology masters, and for his dissertation he did about the craze, and so um it's gonna be really interesting to see what he has to say. I interviewed Paul just a few days later, and it was fascinating. Let me know what you think. So 22nd of October 2024, and we've just done the interview with Paul Stickler. Absolutely fascinating. I hope that you're really gonna enjoy this. He has a lot to say, and I think it's really important when we're doing this to get all perspectives and understand, you know, everybody's different point of view on this. So this is just something a little bit different for you to enjoy.

Speaker 2 5:33

My name's Paul Stickler. I'm a former police officer from Hampshire. I did 30 years predominantly on the CID, and a lot of that time was was specialising in murder investigations. Did major crime across the piste, but murder, of course, falls into that category. And I'd spent a lot of time, I was kind of crossed to the FBI in America where I worked with 260 agents over there. So I got exposed a little bit to the workings of the American police. And of course, I had to give them briefings on how we do policing in Britain, and we are fundamentally different in philosophical approaches, what we believe in, how we go about our business. So that was really, really interesting. I ended up as chief superintendent in Southampton, that's where I retired from. And after that, I went to university to do a master's degree in criminology, and my final dissertation was on the craze.

Wendy Cee 6:20

Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker 2 6:21

And but what I did was someone said, look, there's a little bit of work here, I don't think anyone's ever done. It's about how the craze are perceived and how the public perceive the craze as a result of what's written, what's been said, what's in film, rather than reality. And that morphed itself into a dissertation which really spoke about the facts relating to the craze and the myths which have been created by the craze and how you differentiate between the two. And that morphed into me doing analysis which brought about my own theory about the operation of the craze wins and how they were able to operate in the 1960s. That period from 1964 all the way through to 69, well, a bit earlier than 67, 68, with apparent ease, you know, without seeing to be touched by anyone. So I've developed my own theory about that. It's based on existing information, but it's me that's put it together. So that's been my interest in the craze. But in the last 10 years, I've been researching quite a few other murders. I've got about 12 different murders, I'll go into great detail, and I'll just give talks on those on cruise ships around the world mainly, but also local talks like like you see in Baker Stoke this week, etc. So that got me more interested in cases I was unearthing at the National Archives. And so the first case I really got into detail, which resulted in my first book, which is called Atmosphere Bridgely's Corner, was a case in 1919, a murder of her shopkeeper in 1919. I did the research, I turned it into a talk, turned it into a book, but at the end of that book, there's so many questions I didn't understand the answer to. I thought this isn't right. There's something here I do not understand, and that's what led me into researching those cases in more detail. That led on to me getting a PhD in law in history. So I examined murder investigations between in the interwar years, now between 1919 and 1939. I did the PhD and that, and that just looked at the legal basis of murder investigations, but of course what it did expose me to how the police went about their business. So that was the first book, and then I was always interested in the Han Rati case, the ASIC's murder, because it's such a yeah, it's it's just a famous case, infamous case. And I was reading a few books about it written back in the 70s and 80s, and I became a little bit annoyed about what I was reading because quite clearly what's by being written by various authors was simply not true. Or it's a rather partisan account of what happened in some of these cases. And I thought one day I'm going to rewrite that book about the ASICs murder. But it's such a complicated case, and I thought I'll never get around to it, it's going to be far too difficult. And then by sheer luck, I was contacted by the victim's executor to her will. So there's a lady called Valerie's story, she's the one who was raped and shot. Michael was shot dead. Valerie was shot and raped. She survived the ordeal, she'd be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. And when she died in 2016, the executor got hold of me and said, Did you know that all the time Valerie was alive, but not talking to the media because she wouldn't talk to the judge, she wouldn't talk to the likes of you and me at all because she didn't trust the media because they played dirty tricks with her, really. She made notes. For 40 years, she made notes and she listened to every broadcast, she read every book, she read every newspaper, and she'd sit there at home, she'd annotate these saying, You got that wrong, you got that wrong. So, very, very capable woman, very bright woman, but very resourceful woman, I always call her. And so this manifests itself in a pile of documents this high. And the executor said, Man called Adrian Hobbs, Professor Adrian Hobbs, he said, Would you like to come out and look at them? Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. I went and looked at them, and he just showed me one of piece, one or two tantalizing pieces of paper. And I thought, wow, this is good. Would you mind if I borrow them? Because I'm I'd like to give a talk about this. I already give a talk about it, but I'd like to develop it. And I wouldn't mind even writing a book about it. And it eventually gave me the papers and he said, No, if you want to use the papers for a book, I he'd be happy to support that. And what really sparked that was in her handwritten notes, Valerie actually wrote, I want the world to know the true story of what happened here, because the world doesn't know the true story because of all the books that have been written, the films have been made, etc. And she said, and she started to sketch out. You can see her notes all being sketched out, and she thought, I want to write a book about this. And you can see the schematic, chapter one, chapter two, chapter three. Very detailed, very revealing about how she felt about relationships, love, marriages, all that sort of stuff. And she said, I want the stories to be called The Long Silence because I've been silent for so long about this, and it's about time the world actually knew the true story. So after she died, I've got the papers, I then got hold of the uh police chief in Bedfordshire, the current one, who gave me access to the original police papers. And so I've got everything written that's written about the story from author's perspectives. I've got all the journalists' perspective, I've now got the police perspective, and I've got Ballerie, the surviving victims' perspective, and I thought, wow. And it just happened to coincide with February 2020, and I know what you're all doing in February 2020. Nothing, because we're it's the first lockdown. And so I sat around my kitchen table for six months and wrote the book, The Long Silence. And that got published in the August of 2021. So that's probably my biggest project, but it is undoubtedly my biggest project. But now I continued doing the talks. There's a prospect of me doing some television work now. I'm on the cusp of getting a contract with a television production company, and they want me to research about 10, 20 different cases which haven't been brought to light so far. That may or may not come about. And then I did a television programme about Han Rati recently, and that looks like I'm going to do one of the craze early tail end of this year. And I said, I'll only talk about the craze because there's so many people know about the craze. I mean, you've mentioned more in there. There's so many people who know the reality better because they were there. Now, obviously, memories fade and things are do get distorted. There's so many people who know so many different things about the craze, and I don't really feel qualified about it. But then I spoke to the television company, I said, look, I can talk about them, but I'm particularly interested in my own theory, which I've developed, which is the craze were only allowed to operate in the way that they did, and the manner they did, and the extent to which they did, because of three factors which are actually outside of their control, which allowed them to do that. And that's my thinking. And my theory is, and the television company don't know this bit yet. But the I say it publicly, so it's it's not secret, but there's three factors which have always been written about, but actually take any one of those factors out, and you probably would never have heard of the Kray twins. Now the first one is mental health and the extent to which Ronnie was affected by his his physiology, his biology, his makeup. You know, the guy was at one point, of course, diagnosed as schizophrenic. Don't know whether a modern analysis would arrive at that conclusion, but that's the phraseology used at the time. And it was his willingness to use violence more so than Reggie. Reggie was much more calm and measured. He was violent, but he was much more calm and measured, whereas Ronnie was just he liked to hunt people and much worse, much worse than that, of course, torture people, shoot people. But he wasn't really able to control that because that was, I would suggest that that's his makeup. And I'm not a psychiatrist, but I'm sure psychiatrists would say if they had a you know decent access to his material records, etc., they would say that his mental health was a factor which was subliminal. It's it's subconscious, it wasn't operating on the face of everything, it's just there in the background, and that was guiding and shaping the way he behaved in life. And Reggie, it seems to me, from what I've read quite a bit, Reggie was always trying to control his brother. So you can't do that, you can't go around beating people up, you're gonna bring the police down on us unnecessarily. But Ronnie couldn't do that, didn't do that. And you know, we saw his excessive violence in the boxing ring when he was young, fighting in the streets, you know, the willingness to go and shoot people, you know, and the blind beggar and that sort of stuff. And even Reggie was opposed to him doing that, you know. When he found out about it, he was upset and annoyed about that. Yeah, it's gonna bring all sorts of problems on it. So Ronnie's mental health really influenced the way the crows operate, and of course, that attracted attention to them. Apart from they were besuited and they look smart, they're twins, ostensibly identical twins. The fact that this guy is suffering from mental health and was quite content to use violence to an excessive degree, made them particularly attractive to the media, the headlines, etc. So if you've got that one factor that in the background, subconsciously operating all the time, the second one I argue is that homosexuality, uh, or more so actually bisexuality, as we now know, that what Ronnie Kray effectively did, what the Krays were allowed to do, is take advantage of the relationship which developed between Ronnie Kray and Lord Boothby. Because Lord Boothby, of course, was caught up in that blackmail racket, the suing of the newspaper, all that sort of stuff, and Boothby getting lots of money. And of course, Boothby was a highly controversial figure well before the Krays were on the scene. But he went into the relationship with Ronnie Kray with open eyes, he knew exactly what he's doing. He loved the sexual orgies, he loved the rent boys, he loved the bisexuality, certainly homosexuality. So he went in with his eyes open to this relationship, which resulted, of course, in both MI5 and the police writing about these people in the background in intelligence circles. And then the police almost compromise themselves by denying they're actually looking at these people. And then, of course, Boothby sues the newspaper successfully, and I forget the exact figure, I'm sure you know better than me, but it's something like £40,000 or something. But he got a lot of money. And I would suggest that because of that, and the police already denying they're doing any investigation, plus Boothby suing the newspaper for something they couldn't prove, probably put the police on the back foot. So they probably went forward and they knew about the McVitie shooting, they knew about George Cornell, they knew about Frankie Mitchell, but never really in a strong position to go and arrest and do any proper investigation. A, because people weren't talking, but B, they knew full well if they got it wrong, there's a chance they're going to get sued as well. So it probably made the police a lot more cautious in their ability to investigate the circumstances of the craze because they're concerned about the civil litigation which had followed just a few years earlier in 1964. And of course, the shootings, the main incidents, of course, in 1966 through to 1967. I would suggest that the police were a little bit circumspect and about the to the extent they went to investigate and the extent to which they'd start their ready to appoint figures. So you've got homosexuality and the relationship of Ronnie with Boothby had, in my opinion, directly affected the whole environment in which the police were operating out there. They were fearful of getting it wrong, fearful of being sued. But at the same time, you've got Ronnie completely out of control. Absolutely, because of possibly because of his mental health, etc. And then the third factor really is the the whole wider issue of police corruption. So police corruption was a big thing of the pre-1970s and into the 1970s, and subsequently before, but certainly into the from the 70s backwards. And it's one of the commissioners, I think it's a Robert Marx that the sign of a successful police force is one that catches more criminals than it employs. That's how concerned he was about the extent of corruption in the police at the time. And of course, there's been quite a lot written about the probably the stronger instances of perceived corruption in the Metropolitan Police at the time was the East End. You know, and Dick Hobbs, who's an academic I quite admire, he was saying that pretty much how it operated was it was alcohol provided a strategic crop for CID because what they're doing, they're running the pubs. If you wanted to run a pub to get a licence, you have to pay the police, and then the police drank in the pubs, the villains drank in the pubs, information would be exchanged, and the police were aware that certain activities were going on, they're preventing certain activities from going on as well, of course. But there was a little bit of an attitude, and I think a number of authors have suggested this that arriving their own killing their own or their own harming their own, it didn't really matter. Which, of course, is the thin end of the wedge of you lost control of society. And so the police, I would argue, were aware of what the craze are up to. They didn't want to step forward too quickly in case they got sued, but they knew what was going on and were satisfied they're only harming each other. So therefore this other element of police corruption operating in the background was the third factor, which gave them the perfect environment in which to operate. You've got Ronnie who actually can't control himself. You've got the police standing back for fear of being sued. Plus, they were mindful of the fact, look, we know what's going on, but no one's really being hurt because this is all within a certain click of people. It wasn't affecting the wider society. But as I say, once that gets out of control, you've lost you've lost policing on the streets at that point. And that's only then when Nipper Reed and his team came along, of course, and did a more directed operation. So those three factors are the big factors uh which were operating in the background. And you take any one of those factors out, the chances are that um you may well not have heard of the Kray twins because they may not have been able to operate in the way they actually did. I'm a little bit unsure about the extent to which there's a young lad called Terry Martin beaten up by Ronnie. And Ronnie went to prison for, I think, three years in 57 for um grievous bodily harm. Terry is badly, really badly injured, apparently. But had Terry died, had you know, and he could have easily died as a consequence of a grievous bodily harm upon the body, had he died in 1957, Ronnie would have been not convicted of grievous bodily harm harm, he would have been convicted of murder and hanged. So in 1957, there wouldn't have been the cray twins, it would have been the cray. So it's almost by luck of all those factors operating in the background which allowed the crays to develop in the way they did, fueled, of course, by the newspapers really wanting to put this on the front page. I mean, it's a really incredibly interesting story. You know, you've got human beings, you've got now, of course, we know about allegations of rape committed on men and women amongst this little group as well. They were besuited guys, they were twins, they associated with the great and the good in society, all those wonderful photographs of Judy Garland and Joe Louie and all those sorts of people. Put all that together, it is a wonderful story. And of course, there's still people who would argue that they're all right, actually, the crazy. Um, of course, a lot of people who I've seen on television talking who knew them personally, and they didn't think they were right. They actually thought they were quite dangerous individuals. But nonetheless, this myth had started to develop, and it's very, very difficult, in my opinion, to distill fact from fiction because when you read some of the accounts, you know it's coming from a villain's perspective, and perhaps they're trying to embellish their own part in this whole story. So it's very, very difficult to pull all this together. So my argument I don't pretend to know all the facts about what the craze got up to. There are better people meet far more qualified to talk about that. But I think sometimes it's worth saying that any one of the factors taken out of the equation could well have affected their behaviour, and perhaps the story wouldn't be the same. And of course, you can't do what if history, I get that, but it does tend to make a bit of sense that, and just by putting forward this new idea, or not necessarily new, but developing this idea, but take any one of those factors out of the equation, there's a good chance that the craze would not be the story that it is today. I mean now in 2024, you know, this is 60 years after the events of the 1960s, it's a massive story. And I and when I talk to audiences. About this, I do say to them, if you want to come back and see me in 50 years' time, I suspect I'll still be talking about it. But there'd be new information, fresh takes on this, fresh ideas, new ideas. And the more people talk to the likes of you about people who knew them and they start saying things about it that perhaps weren't known before, you're going to get a different perspective. And there's new books coming out all the time. I've got James Morton's book, and the final word I still haven't read. I still think one of the best books about it is John Bennett's book, Cryology. I think it's a very good book. I like that.

Wendy Cee 22:31

And I think that's why it's interesting because it's good to get different perspectives from everybody anyway. Because, you know, everyone's got a different answer. I've been trying to research people online, find people. There's still people who say, Yeah, my family, I've got stories about them through my family. They w still won't speak about it. They're still scared to speak about it. But there are other people who are like, Yeah, I'll talk to you. You know, I was in prison with Ronnie or Reggie or and I'll tell you what I think. But I'm gonna say they're a nice guy, and I'm like, We can say what you like. It's your opinion.

Speaker 1 23:02

Yeah, yeah.

Wendy Cee 23:03

It's okay to have your own opinion on this. It doesn't mean everyone shares that opinion. But if that's your opinion, that's fine.

Speaker 2 23:11

I look at old murders all the time. I used to, you know, I've arrested murderers, I've interviewed murderers, I know murderers, and 99% of them are normal human beings like you and me, and suddenly something went wrong in their life.

Wendy Cee 23:24

I think that's what happened to my uncle.

Speaker 2 23:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. That doesn't apply to the craze because their activities were spread over well from they're effectively operation from the 50s onwards, weren't they? They're looking up to the likes of Billy Hill and Jack Spot. They saw them as a role model, if you like. I could be wrong on this, but I think Ronnie really looked up to Billy Hill. I think he did, yeah. He saw him as something to be uh of course I think Ronnie is equally impressed with the mafia and he saw himself as the reincarnation of Al Capone and things like that. So yeah, so a lot of people will always heart back to say these people were good people, but it's very difficult to sort of justify that position statement when you look at it in the round and look back over 50, 60 years of activity.

Wendy Cee 24:08

Yeah. What um sources did you use to do your dissertation?

Speaker 2 24:13

The dissertation was an analysis of the written literature. So pretty much every book which had been written up until that point. But then, of course, I also went out to National Archives and dug out the paperwork out there. But it's certainly uh I'm sure you've seen it, but it's it's voluminous, it's it's lots and lots of it. If I wanted to do a book on the Greys, I'd need to go back to look at those archives again to get try and get a different take or try and understand it a little bit more. Because there's so much information in in the National Archive which doesn't get into books because it isn't part of the story that the author wishes to pursue. And I'm sure there's much more other. I'm much more interested in policy documents, how the police were thinking, how they were operating, rather than the actual per se activities of the individuals involved. So I'd like to develop that.

Wendy Cee 25:00

I think that'd be a fascinating way to look at it though, because having that different perspective is always interesting.

Speaker 2 25:05

Yeah, it is. And um uh I think Dan Smith who did the book, The Peer and the Gangster, he does refer to MI5 files and police files, but he's all he's often saying what's not said here, what hasn't he got access to? Um so there is there is some more research to be done there to have a look about how the craze were dealt with. But it won't be just the craze, of course, it will be look all the other criminals operating out there at the time, but of course MI5 are much more interested in the political nuances about how Boolefe was allowed to associate with Ronnie.

Wendy Cee 25:37

Well, I think the craze were very public with everything they were doing, weren't they? Whereas a lot of the others were trying to do it quietly behind the scenes, and so whereas the craze were out there with all the celebrities and showing off and spending money and supporting prisoners, wives, paying money to charity, doing all the things that pseudo-politicians would have been doing at that time.

Speaker 2 26:04

And Ronnie looked up actually, Ronnie and Reggie had held the upper classes in quite high regard. You know, they actually saw quite a strong social strata and they saw themselves at the bottom and looked up to the upper classes. And you got the converse when Lord Boothby is actually much more interested, he's interested in the political dynamics, but he's also very interested in how other people lived, Rempoys and homosexuals as they were described back in the time pre-1967. He loved that and he loved criminality, you know, and his relationship with the likes of Leslie Holtz and people like that. He loved that. So you've got this really interesting dynamic social mix between people who are perceived top of the social strata, interacting with those at the bottom, and how they seem to enjoy it, and how it came together, and how it produced that little bit of dynamite which produced the whole thing about the Kray twins. So there's many different perspectives you can bring to bear on this. And as I say, in 50 years' time, I think we'll still be talking about him.

Wendy Cee 27:08

Do you think that there were police and politicians that were fairly high up that the Krays were able to manipulate?

Speaker 1 27:16

I don't know.

Wendy Cee 27:17

They didn't find any evidence of that when you were in research.

Speaker 2 27:21

I mean, there's there are suggestions that there was one, there was a number of low-level instances, weren't there, low detected constables and sergeants being involved in some sort of bribery and not going to court because Ronnie wouldn't give evidence that sort of stuff. I can't remember the detail behind it, but there's certainly low-level instances. But I can't believe there was some high-level infiltration. Any high-level infiltration would have been done by the likes of Boothby trying to affect the police commissioner. But actually, Boothby wasn't that high in the political strata, actually. He was always being suppressed by those in government, those in the cabinet, etc. And he was seen as a little bit of a wild card, wasn't he? So I think if anyone was trying to affect the higher echelons of the police, it would have been the likes of Boothby. And of course, he had all the other political affairs at the time, you know, Profuma Affair that was running almost in parallel at the same time. And then many other instances. So I'd whether the craze had a direct link to the top of the police service, I do not know. It'd be a wonderful story. Um and it may come out. It may yet come out, but um No, you never know, but I haven't I haven't seen that yet.

Wendy Cee 28:28

It's interesting, isn't it, how the police did just kind of leave them to it. I wonder if there was some of it was down to rather not get involved with because it it opens up a big can of worms if they start if they take the craze down, then does it open them and their families up to being targeted potentially or it may be a simple case of having operated in the police as I did for 30 years, there are often cases where you hear of organised criminality, you hear of people who are operating the top the higher end of criminality, and you'd love to be able to do something about it.

Speaker 2 29:04

But the reality of policing is often, okay, the simple fact is you haven't got the resources to do that. You've got to deal with the daily drudge, you've got to deal with the thieving, the burglary, the robbery, the sexual offences, all the stuff that goes on in society every day. You don't get the time. And often you could go to your bosses and say, I'd like to have a look at these guys, and say, Well, you're not going to, we haven't got the people to do it. So that may be an element I mean, that's just daily boring policing. That goes from then it'll go it goes on now. So it may just be a simple case the craze weren't looked at because they were seen as too difficult.

Wendy Cee 29:37

Thank you for listening to the Krays Web. This was episode 19, interview with Paul Stickler. Next week, our final episode in this season, episode 20, interview with David Last. David is a historian and collector of Krays memorabilia, and I spoke to him about why he found the Krays so fascinating. I think you'll find it a really interesting listen. Finally, I want to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me to put this podcast together. Please check out the show notes and my website for more information on the books and reference material that I used for my research. Until next time, stay safe.