The Krays Web
The Krays Web takes you through the life of the infamous Kray Twins.........and beyond.
In Season 1 we start with a deep dive into the lives of Ronnie and Reggie Kray, from the beginning............to the end.
This season will be followed by stories of those who got caught in the Krays Web, amazing life stories from those in some way associated with the Krays.
The Krays Web
Interview with David Last
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Did you know the Krays? Or have a story to tell? Get in touch
The story everyone thinks they know… isn’t the full story.
In this bonus episode of The Krays Web, we speak with author David Last, whose research into the Kray twins challenges many of the myths that have surrounded them for decades.
From separating fact from fiction to re-examining key events, this conversation dives deeper into the truth behind one of Britain’s most enduring criminal legends.
In this episode:
• David Last’s research into the Kray twins
• The biggest myths and misconceptions about the Krays
• How media and popular culture shaped their image
• Re-examining key events and widely accepted narratives
• The gap between public perception and reality
• The long-term impact of the Krays on British culture
• Why their story still fascinates today
Why it matters:
This episode challenges the legend — offering a clearer, more grounded understanding of who the Krays really were, and why their story continues to endure.
Follow the show for more deep dives, interviews, and untold stories that go beyond the headlines.
Links to Resources
Check out my website for resources used and social media links : thekraysweb.com
Contact me : wendyceepods@gmail.com
Music by Captain Fat Hands captainfathands.com
David Last books : Those Were The Krays Those Were The Krays: 90 Years In Places: Amazon.co.uk: Last, David, Siggers, Donna: 9798861408011: Books and Ron Krays Prison Letters https://www.amazon.co.uk/Krays-Prison-Letters-David-Last/dp/B0G5Q3YXP7/ref=pd_lpo_d_sccl_1/523-6073293-9188556
David Last Inteview
Wendy CeeWelcome to the Craze Web, a podcast about the infamous Cray twins and those associated with them. I'm your host, Wendy C, and this is season one, The Craze, episode twenty, interview with David Lost. Please note that there is some swearing in this podcast and descriptions of violence. I will be adding specific trigger warnings where needed. The voices that you hear throughout the podcast are my family and friends who have rallied around to help me make this podcast more enjoyable for you to listen to. I've used lots of sources when writing these episodes, far too many to list here, but details of which you will be able to find on my website, thecrazeweb.com. In this final episode, I wanted to share three clips that are from Robin McGibbon's Cray Tapes, which are now been re-released and are available via my website, thecrazeweb.com, that you can purchase on CD. I want to include these so that you can actually hear Ronnie, Reggie and Charlie's voices. You will have heard the clip from Ronnie in episode two where he talks about his time in Suffolk as a child. You will have heard from Charlie in the funeral episodes. But I just want to include this particular clip where he has asked if his brothers terrorised anyone. And Robin had an interaction with Reggie Cray when he was in prison during one of their calls that I thought would show Reggie's personality quite well. I hope you enjoyed listening.
SPEAKER_05Um can you remember the very first time that you went to the country?
Robin McGibbon & Ronnie KrayUh when we were little kids, we got evacuated to it's good. What uh year was that we went to uh uh beginning of the war. Beginning of the war. And we went to uh uh Mr. Tower's place in uh mention it. Tower's Titan and uh but you have no button and uh remember that it's tighter with me. What did you like about it? First chair, last table, last country star.
Short music break
SPEAKER_05What do you think about all these phrases that uh they terrorise but be honest, I'm gonna write it over. They terrorise the East End. If you can look at it objectively, did they was is there any truth in that?
SPEAKER_06Well, I can't you see the only answer I can give uh I can give a couple of answers. One answer is this, and I've told people who've never ever done it. If they feel like they terrorise the East End, they might have terrorised villains in the East End. When I say terrorized, I mean they were frightened of them, not terrorised them, they didn't go around terrorising people. Uh but the if you go to Bethngreen Road or anywhere where they live, uh that's the East End. And you still there's this look shops all up Bethngreen, Bethelgreen Market, go to every stall holder, every shop, and say, Did the twins how would you what do you feel about it, Queen? Today's to terrorise you or today's ago, and they're all gonna say, I still terrorise anyone. I've had plenty of raw house, but that's a bit different to terrorise. And when I say terrorise people.
Short Music Break
SPEAKER_09Well, possibly. Oh, yeah, no doubt, but uh possibly it will be. Um who knows what the best of these best seller is? Uh no one knows if we it would all be familiar, wouldn't we, right?
Wendy CeeToday I'm sharing an interview that I did with David Last, who is a historian and author specializing in the Kray twins. David has written two books. Those were the Crays, Ninety Years in Places, which lists all of the places that are associated with the Crays, including photos, directions of how to get to them, and descriptions of the places. And his latest book is Ron Cray's Prison Letters. This book has photographs of letters that Ron has written from prison that are in David's personal collection, along with transcriptions for them all, as Ronnie's writing is quite difficult to read. I interviewed David about his fascination with the Krays and the research that he's done in the past. I hope you enjoy the interview. Hello.
SPEAKER_00Hi, how are you doing?
Wendy CeeI'm good, how are you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, good, thank you.
Wendy CeeSo let's start with how did you get interested in the craze?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think like most people of my age, or certainly lads of my age, it was really the the cray film in the in the nineties with the Kent brothers.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't don't really like to use impressionable age, but I guess in terms of age I was, you know, you watch the film and it's all like cars and guns and that kind of thing. And yeah, it does for whatever reason it does attract you. And it was one of them films that I watched over and over again. You know, some films you buy them and it was VHS back then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I didn't see it at the cinema. But yeah, it's uh it was one of them we watch over and over again. I I don't know that they glamourised it. Some people say they glamourised the film, but I'm not sure. But yeah, just something attracted you to it.
Wendy CeeIs it because when you watch most other films you know that they're fiction and this was actually based on fact, do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it probably was, you know, and I must have seen stuff on the news and in newspapers, or it was certainly talked about. And yeah, and the fact that they were twins and they were sharply dressed, just something about that that just drew you in for whatever reason. I don't know. But yeah, it was most definitely the film at that time.
Wendy CeeAnd then off the back of that, you s that was when you started collecting and researching more.
SPEAKER_00And no, it was much later. I did watch documentaries and things, but not sort of obsessively for many years, and then about 15 years ago, something like that, I started watching more and more documentaries. There was lots of them that came out, and then YouTube started getting more popular, and I would find myself watching, you know, because although I've just done two books, I'm not a big reader, but I do get really engrossed in documentaries and YouTube videos, and for whatever reason I started getting really obsessively engrossed in these, not to a point where I wanted to go out and murder people, just just from the interest point of view.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then I got home early from work one day, and my then wife was at work, and I was scrolling through the internet. I had heard that there was a London tour run by Mad Frankie Fraser.
Wendy CeeRight.
SPEAKER_00And I I'd seen so many documentaries with him and you know, talking on there and stuff. And I thought, do you know what? I'm gonna phone the number and see if he's still about. It was quite an old website, hadn't been updated or anything, but I thought I'll just give it a try and see if they're still operating, because I would love to go on it, you know. Yeah. See all the old all the old haunts in London and stuff. And so obviously, because of watching the documentaries, I knew what Frank's voice sounded like. It was a mobile number. I rang the number and it was Frankie Fraser that answered the phone.
Wendy CeeAnd you weren't expecting that.
SPEAKER_00No, and I was really quite taken back, but at the same time, weirdly excited, you know, from the point of, oh my god, um, this guy has done all these things of been listening to his stories for months and even years, and suddenly he's on the other end of the phone. Oh my god.
Wendy CeeThat's about how I felt when Chris Lambriani phoned me one day, and I just he said, Is that Wendy? And I went, Yeah. And he goes, It's Chris. I think you want to talk to me. And I was like, Whoa! Okay, yeah. Such a weird feeling when you've been reading about them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because you you almost feel privileged to be called by them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So then what goes through your mind is, How do I keep this guy on the phone? I I want to listen to as much as possible, you know. Anyway, he broke the ice quite quickly because he he said, Oh, whereabouts are you from? And I'm from a little area called Stroud, but it's just outside Rochester. But it was easier just to say I'm from Rochester rather than confuse things. So I said, Oh, I'm I'm in Rochester, and um ringing to see if you're still operating the tour. And uh he said, Oh, I know Rochester. He said, uh I used to stay in a lovely hotel there back in the day. I was like, Oh right. And I wasn't very quick, you know. And uh I said, Oh, where where was that then? He said, Oh, it was a little hotel owned by you know Her Majesty, but the only thing is I wasn't allowed out at night. Of course I twigged, I was like, oh my god, you know. Um he's talking about the bore stall.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that that sort of really broke the ice and we had a laugh. And then uh he said, right, on to business. He said, Um, he said, you want to come into London? And uh I was like, yeah, and he he's like, well, you can't. I said, what do you mean I can't? He said, Tony won't allow you. I said, what do you mean, Tony? And I thought he meant Tony Adams, because I started getting into like gangster mode, you know, who's operating in London that won't allow me to London? And he went, no, Tony Blair. And he starts rolling around laughing, you know. And uh he said, No, I'm only joking with you. He said, I don't run the tour anymore. He said, I'm too old. And then that that was that conversation. Like I say, we had a laugh and that was it, we just left it at that. And then a little while later, his driver at the time was a friend of a friend, and she caught wind that I was fascinated by the whole crime stuff, and she knew that I'd spoken to Frank. And on my next birthday, he sent uh through the driver, he sent me a t-shirt, which I've still got, you know, two days happy birthday from mad Frankie Fraser. So yeah, that that's kind of really where it began, really.
Wendy CeeBecause what I've realized from researching this was I thought I'm just gonna do a little podcast about the craze, or I'm just gonna tell their story because I have a lot of American listeners who don't know about the craze. So I thought it'd be interesting for them. And what I very quickly realised, two years down the line, and 80 books, is that you start down a rabbit hole that you can't get back out of.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
Wendy CeeAnd every time you turn and think I'm almost there, you turn around, there's something else.
SPEAKER_00There's all these little branches off everywhere, isn't there? I know.
Wendy CeeAnd it but I've also realized that when you meet most of these people, they're so friendly and welcoming.
unknownYeah.
Wendy CeeWhich is kind of not I did not expect that at all. I thought no one's gonna talk to me. It's gonna be closed doors, I've just learned what I can from books and documentaries and write it. But actually, everyone is so welcoming and is happy to talk to you, maybe not on the record, but is happy to talk to you and share stories with you, which I've just found fascinating because that I didn't expect that at all.
SPEAKER_00No, definitely. I I agree. And the other thing that always surprises me is how small a lot of these people are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, you just you just fit you imagine them being big burly men. I know you know they're all of age now, but yeah, um the few the few that are left are really quite small people, and you just think, you know, how did they carry out these acts that done all these years ago?
Wendy CeeAnd also you say that they were all smartly dressed in the films and everything like that, but when you meet them now, most of them are still wearing those pinstripe suits and the ties, and they're so smart when you meet them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I spent a lot of time with Freddie Foreman on at various events and stuff, and he would not go anywhere without a suit, you know, always smartly dressed. Yeah, it's it really is a lifestyle that they continue to live, you know. But yeah, it's uh it's fascinating.
Wendy CeeSo you've been collecting memorabilia over the years?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just on the craze, or you collect lots of different I mean the bulk of it is very related, but a bit like yourself, just then saying about it branches off to different areas. It does. Um I mean I've got a couple of Harry Roberts signed items, but I'm a bit reluctant to share them online and you know, for obvious reasons of what you've done. And I never ever condone any of the acts of crime, you know. It's it's purely an interest of really the psychology of their behaviour.
Wendy CeeThat's what's quite interesting to me is you know, this podcast actually started like this. I'll start just talking about the craze, and then I realised all these links they have to all these other people, and you know, and I mean people from everyday walks of life like Maureen and you know, Nick, who's the florist, but also other criminals, which is why I've called it the craze web, because the idea is we talk about the craze to start with, but then there'll be all these other people we talk about that are just in some way connected. And it's just fascinating how widespread that is, actually. I mean, I would say every time I go into London for business meetings, not even about the podcast, and it's just easier in a taxi to say I'm, you know, a podcaster than I'm an accountant. Yeah, yeah, the amount of people that then say, Oh, I know a story about the crazy always telling you like every cab I get in.
SPEAKER_00How do you take those stories? Do you take them with a pinch of salt? Of course. Yeah.
Wendy CeeBut I mean, that's the same with most stories, you know, most of these books. It's like if you read the same account in the books, depending on who's telling you the story. Exactly. Like if Ronnie and Reggie are telling you the story, their versions are the same.
SPEAKER_00And sometimes even their version changed.
Wendy CeeYeah. But if you look at some of the others as well, you're like, okay, well, they were there. So why is their story so different? And it's quite interesting. I try to present it on the podcast so that I'm not telling the story, I'm letting the books tell the story. And so I'm trying to include some of these different accounts so that people can make up their own minds what they think happened. It's not up to me to, you know, tell people what it is. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00And I I I don't know about you, but I found that the more I learnt about the twins as south as criminals, the the less impressed you've become of them. I mean, I'm sure they were great people to their family and and you know, direct friends, but as criminals, they w they wasn't great criminals. No. Um almost everything was done by other people.
Wendy CeeOh yeah, yeah. Or on the spur of the moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right. You know, apart from those fatal moments that got them locked up, you know, the small criminal activity of theft and protection stuff, most of that was done by other people.
Wendy CeeYeah. Yeah, they just headed it really, didn't they?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But you know, their look, their image, and their I guess their phone book as well, really, they were the front of it. And that is what the police wanted to annihilate.
Wendy CeeYeah, their links to the celebrities, I think definitely is why another reason they're as fascinating as they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I look at them as in their heyday, they were fantastic self-publicists. I mean, most people of that time didn't have anywhere near as many photos of themselves as the twins did.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00And the real criminals that got away with their crimes, you know, successful robbers, you wouldn't see them in photos anywhere.
Wendy CeeWell, it's amazing, isn't it? You would think you'd want to stay under the radar and not be, you know, getting photographed in newspapers and things like that.
SPEAKER_00That's right. I mean, as you know, I I'm a big collector and I'm always on the lookout for new photos, and it surprises me there's always something new comes up, and you just think, you know, how many photos were taken of these guys? Yeah. There's even a suggestion by some people that David Bailey was actually working for MI5, and that's why he he took a lot of the photos and was present at the wedding. It was a lot of that is believed to have been about surveillance and finding out who is close to them. Uh, you know.
Wendy CeeIt would make sense, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it would. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty interesting surveillance.
Wendy CeeYeah. I mean, there's so many little stories, isn't there? There's been loads of stuff that people have told me where I'm like, I'm not I'm not putting that in.
SPEAKER_00Nah.
Wendy CeeAnd I mean, not even on just this series, there's been stuff on series we've did before, where some lady told us something, and I said, I'm not putting that in for my safety and yours.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
Wendy CeeBecause I don't want to put you at risk by putting this out there. And I definitely don't want to be at risk because of something you said.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it all has to be taken into account, doesn't it?
Wendy CeeYeah, you have to be sensible about it, you know. It's not to sensationalise things.
SPEAKER_00No, definitely.
Wendy CeeI mean, it's been an interesting journey. I spoke to a retired detective, which will actually be on the episode before yours.
SPEAKER_00Oh, excellent.
Wendy CeeHe went to then do a criminology degree.
SPEAKER_00Oh, wow.
Wendy CeeAnd he did his dissertation on why he thought the craze became as successful as they did and the economic factors around why those exact factors together meant that they became as successful as they did, which was very interesting to talk to him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I imagine it was.
Wendy CeeSo will we include in that as well? Because I'm trying to give it a balanced view and make sure we also talk about the victims in this.
SPEAKER_00Yes, because I I've obviously like itself, it's for me, it's been a journey, and at times I've had to sort of rein myself back to reality, and you know, I've got children of my own, and I come from a good solid background and all the rest of it. And you you have to remind yourself, you know, I do know what's right and what's wrong, and I can't under any circumstances condone what these people do. You know, to meet the ones that are still around, it's it's like talking to your granddad or something, you know. But somewhere along the lines, these people have overstepped that line that society accepts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And which of course has meant murder at times.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, and with that in mind, sometimes me and my partner Donna, we try and do something nice. You know, we enjoy the dark stuff and going to book launches of criminals, and we love h listening to the stories and watching the documentaries, but sometimes it you can get so deep in it. Yeah, you need to do something nice to to break break it up a little bit.
Wendy CeeIt can be really tough, I think. When you're reading a lot, I've noticed that when I'm really into doing a series that's really heavy, you do have to take yourself away from it and go, No, look, this is getting too much. Yeah. For my own mental health, I need to step away from it for a bit.
SPEAKER_00You do you obviously find it out for yourself, like the Richardson's is another one. I wasn't around on the circuit when Charlie was about, sadly. I wish I was, but I wasn't. But I have met Eddie several times. And the first time I met him, even though he was quite an age, he still had some sort of awe around him. You know. And he was quite big as well, tall. Met him in an underground club in London, believe it or not. But yeah, it's a lot of people that don't see eye to eye with him.
Wendy CeeSo you've just released your second book, haven't you? Now, by the time this goes out, it's probably going to be out almost a year, I imagine. So tell me about your books and how you did the research for those.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the first one, again, I've just become fascinated really by the story and then by the the sort of footprint and the the places that were still left behind in London.
Wendy CeeThere's a lot of them, isn't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, hell of a lot. And weirdly, I went to London with my mum as a small child, and I actually visited a place with my mum, and unbeknown to me, it was literally on the doorstep of Fred's old club. So that was like an interesting little link. But then it must have been about 10, 10, 15 years ago, I had an operation at the University College Hospital in London. And rather than just go to my appointments, I spent a lot of time on my own in London. Training tickets were quite expensive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I'd sort of make a day of it. And then after a while I I'd started giving myself a little itinerary of places I wanted to visit each time. And they were all started off cray-related but ended up, you know, a bit like yourself, branching off to other crimes and criminals. And yeah, just each time I went to London, I was doing about sort of 10 or 12 mile walks, just visiting all these places and photographing them. Yeah. And it was it was fascinating. And then somewhere along the line, people kept saying to me, You you know, you really need to document all this. It's you know, there's too much there to waste, you know. And then I decided to put the the actual physical location, the postcodes and the nearest tube stations or train stations and stuff. And then I met my now partner, Donna, and we started exploring during lockdown. We started going even further afield and visited the twins' old mansion in Suffolk and the lodge house where they were evacuated to, and Jeff Allen's place, who was their kind of godfather, if you like, visited his home there's a story goes that his pond was dredged to see if one other bodies were were were there, but I d I don't think there's any truth in that. It's funny all the same, you know.
Wendy CeeYeah, there's all these stories that go round, isn't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then visited the pubs and you know, drank in the ones that were still there. Yeah, and I've just got further and further away, you know. I went down to Dartmoor, to Dartmoor prison.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Went to the pubs where Frank Mitchell drank and took his budgery garter.
SPEAKER_02I know, it's mad.
SPEAKER_00I'm even in my mind, I'm planning already a trip to America to go even further into the mafia stuff as well.
Wendy CeeYeah.
SPEAKER_00But that's for another day.
Wendy CeeWell, it's a fascinating book, isn't it? Because unlike all the others, which kind of tell all the stories or they're from the horse's mouth kind of thing, this one is more of a you can use it as a reference guide to go and see the places and know where they are, and you don't have to do your own thing. You can go on these tours, like you say, you tried to do the Frankie Fraser tour. Have you done the Mickey's gangster bus tour?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I know Mickey well and love him to bits, but his tour doesn't go to many places.
Wendy CeeIt doesn't. It's more like a party bus.
SPEAKER_00It's it's great if you're a big drinker. It's great to meet up with Mickey. Yeah, you know.
Wendy CeeYeah, he's a character.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's good fun.
Wendy CeeWe also have Gary Driscoll on the Yeah, I love Gary. Yeah, I've met him a few times now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Gary's a great guy.
Wendy CeeWe've actually used his song on the podcast. He gave me permission to use it on one of the episodes.
SPEAKER_00I actually met Gary on set. We were both extras for one of the foot soldier films. And uh yeah, we spent the whole day together, so I got to meet him and talk to him quite extensively, which was nice. And yeah, we met him at loads of events since. Great guy, great singer.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I actually met Donner on the gangster bus.
Wendy CeeDid you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we we actually met for the first time. It was uh actors and authors sort of get together, and uh Mickey invited me on there. I wasn't an author at the time or an actor, but but he said come on anyway, and uh obviously Donna was already an author.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh yeah, we met there. So yeah, so I've got that. Well, that's a story. Yeah, definitely something to tell the grandkids.
Wendy CeeYeah. And how long ago? What year did you write your first book?
SPEAKER_00That was 2023.
Wendy CeeOkay, and then you've just released a second book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Ron's letters, Ron Cray's prison letters, and there will be a Reg Cray prison letters as one as well.
Wendy CeeAre they all letters that you possess or are they ones that you've copied of other people?
SPEAKER_00No, no, they're all ones that are collection. Yeah, yeah. So um And you've deciphered them all on there, haven't you?
Wendy CeeBecause you know, it's like he's got like doctors' writing, so it's really hard to read, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, believe it or not, Ron's are easier to read than Reggie's. Certainly Reggie's later ones were ri really difficult to read because he was going blind in one eye.
SPEAKER_04Oh right.
SPEAKER_00So is what he used to do. He used to put his hand on the page to hold the paper so he could see where to write. So a lot of his later letters, sort of the last nine or ten years, the writing's all on one side. Oh, I've seen that, yeah. And yeah, and they were getting more and more difficult to read. Um, but I've read so many. I I do find it quite easy now.
Wendy CeeSo you just thought you put them together as a collection so that people can read them all?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've picked out or tried to pick out ones that have got the best content. Um it was a bit more of a I I'll find it easier with the Reg ones because I've got so many, and Reg was a prolific writer. Ron didn't write so much, so I really have put almost every letter I have in into Ron's book. Um, but Reg is I've got about 200 odd letters, and I will pick out the best ones. I I may even do two volumes because I think I've got about 35 letters in Ron's one, and that's the book's sort of 200 odd pages. Yeah. But yeah, there's to various people, family, parents. I've got some really good ones from Reg to Ron.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um it always makes me laugh. People talk about Ron being the the dominant one and you know more manipulative, but I've got some a couple of great letters from Reg to Ron, whereby Reg is having a go at Ron. And he's really quite, you know, vocal, quite abusive to him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean you can imagine being in prison, it was it's ridiculous stuff like moaning at him about spending money and stuff like that.
Wendy CeeWhen he was getting all his Harrods deliveries and that's it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um but my my Reg letters go back as far as 1952.
Wendy CeeWow.
SPEAKER_00So I'm quite looking forward to sharing that with people.
Wendy CeeYeah, you could do them as like a timeline or yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, and Reg had lots of you know, fallouts with different people, and yeah, it's uh yeah, I'm excited. The Ron Cray one, I'm really proud of it actually. It's a book I I would like to buy myself if you know. That's the other thing with my books, is there is so much out there, it needed to be something different. Yeah. It needed to be something that I would pick up myself, you know, because I am a collector, so yeah.
Wendy CeeUm because you're right, there are. I mean, I've got so many here.
SPEAKER_00I bet you're too scared to count them, aren't you?
Wendy CeeI had to buy two bookshelves because I ran out of space.
SPEAKER_00It gets out of control, doesn't it?
Wendy CeeI think I wanted to learn everybody's stories. And so where I've been trying to write, because I'm trying to include quotes from their actual books, I'm still telling the story, but I'm using some of their quotes as well. So I wanted to tell it from all the different angles and everything. And the other day my husband came in and I was writing about the murder of George Cornell, and I think I had 37 books on my desk. And he went, You can't be reading all of those, and I went, Well, I am, I'm reading them all to see where the best quotes are. And some of them are generic, like where somebody's just written the history of the craze, for example, but others are from somebody who was there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Wendy CeeAbout what they say happened and things like that. So I'm just trying to go through and pull out trying to be as truthful as possible. I'm trying to give not just one view of things. I realise that actually there's so many different accounts of what happened.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Wendy CeeIt's not my place to say what happened. So I've tried to include differing accounts so that people who are listening can make up their own mind.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I don't know if you saw, but in my latest book, Ron has actually written in one of the letters who the two murders were that they committed.
Wendy CeeOh, I will have a look.
SPEAKER_00That was for me, that was a selling point. Yeah, yeah. To to see in Ron's own handwriting um his admission to the murders. I wasn't great at school, I'm not very academic at all. So for me to put these together with the help of Donna, of course.
Wendy CeeYeah, but I think it's amazing. I think it's great to have something out there that, like you say, is different to everything else. Yeah, it's something that's interesting to people.
SPEAKER_00They're easy reads as well, you know, they're books you can pick up and put back down.
Wendy CeeYeah, and you can flick through and find the bits you're interested in.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, definitely.
Wendy CeeIt makes a change from some of these I've been trying to read where I pick them up and think, please tell me this is on Audible as well. And then, no, it's not on the writing's so small. I'm too old to be reading all this in this small print. And there's just so much information.
SPEAKER_00And a lot of it is just rehashed time and time again as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And again, that's what I tried to avoid. You know, can I get a book out that's 200 odd pages that doesn't say exactly the same that as what everyone else has said.
Wendy CeeYeah, that's the problem with it, isn't it? Is when you read them, a lot of them have got the same content in. I've been trying to include as many as I can, because I think it's interesting, but also not to try and overload people who are listening.
Interlude - about FB groups
Wendy CeeSo trying to pull the key people from each kind of event. It never occurred to me that there would be that many people in Facebook groups and no, me neither. There is tens of thousands of people in these Facebook groups.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
Wendy CeeIt's quite a lot.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of trolls out there as well. I didn't try and win out for trolls, but I don't get involved in any sort of arguments on there. If it's on one of my groups, I just cut them dead. So what Facebook groups do you run? The main one is the Craig Read All About It. And alongside Aaron Smith, I run Britain's Notorious Gangsters.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00The other one, so I'll have to look it up. I think it's just called the Cray Brothers now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But it's changed names a few times because they're going to use it to try and promote a new film.
Wendy CeeThere's so many out there, isn't there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I did have a Freddie Foreman one as well. But since he's got of age where he's not going out so much now, his family are not too keen on stuff being posted about him.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_00You know, out of respect. We decided to take that down. But yeah, it's amazing how many people are interested in it or, you know, whether we like it or not, it does sell books, it sells films and all the rest of it. The main thing is you don't condone it and you don't glamorise it. We can all have interests that are a bit on the edge. Yeah.
Wendy CeeIt's been fascinating talking to you. Thank you for your giving up your time.
SPEAKER_00No, you're welcome. It's nice to talk to you, Wendy. Thank you very much. Right, take care. Bye.
Wendy CeeAs I've mentioned throughout this podcast, I had a lot of help from my family and friends to put this together. You've heard many of their voices during the episodes, and I just want to give personal thanks to them. I'll start with my friends who are some fellow podcasters. So thank you to Allie and Sarah from Hooked on True Crime, Stuart Blues from British Murders, Kate from Safe Space from the Workplace, and Peter Laws from Into the Fog. I would also like to thank my friends who've helped with the voice acting on this, my long-suffering husband, Pete, and my friends Matt, Millie, James, Mark, Scotty, Ryan, and Mike. And of course, we must also mention Shane, my co-host on Foul Play, who's helped me with putting all of this together and helping me to edit it because that's not my strong point. And Kim from The Haunted Bunker, who's also helped with some of the editing. The intro music on these episodes has come from Captain Fatterhans. You can find his music on his YouTube channel. I'll be adding links to all of the podcasts that I've just mentioned and the YouTube channels in the show notes for today. I just want to say a big thank you for listening to The Craze Web. This is the last episode in season one, The Craze. It was episode 20, interview with David last. I'll be starting season two very soon, but in the meantime, I'll be releasing some of the interviews that I've done over the last few years. Finally, I just want to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me to put the podcast together and to all of my listeners. Please do check out the show notes and my website, the crazeweb.com, where you'll be able to find information on the books and reference materials I've used in my research. You'll also be able to purchase the cray tapes that Robin McGibbon did, where he spoke to all three of the Crays in prison, which we have now managed to get re-released. Until next time, stay safe.
