The Forge with Ryan Miller
Step into the world of industrial manufacturing through candid conversations with the leaders shaping it. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI—a leading manufacturer of cranes, mezzanines, and fall protection systems. This podcast explores what it really takes to build and grow a successful business.
Ryan shares his own journey while sitting down with fellow CEOs and team leaders to uncover the stories behind their success—the challenges they faced, the lessons they learned, and the moments that defined them.
The Forge with Ryan Miller
Episode 3 | Operating a Business While Under Attack with Patrick Booth
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Some people go through one hard season. Patrick Booth went through several at once, and some of them aren't over yet.
In Episode 3 of The Forge, Ryan Miller sits down with Patrick Booth, owner of CCB Technology, a company his father started out of their family's basement in 1991. Patrick took over the business in 2019 and shares what he is walking through.
This is a conversation about the pressures of being a second-generation business owner, navigating hardship in both business and life, and what it looks like to keep moving forward when things aren't easy. Patrick is candid about the realities of leadership, resilience, and trusting God through uncertain seasons.
The Forge With Ryan Miller is a podcast created to help develop company cultures that result in strong teams and create lasting business growth. Real conversations with business owners, manufacturers, and leaders about what it actually takes to build something. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI a leading manufacturer of lifting, storage, and safety systems based in Indiana.
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Hey, I just gotta tell you, like, this isn't working for me. And meanwhile, I'm thinking this has been great. He's coming back every other week. Uh, he's engaged, he hasn't taken his foot off the gas. You know, he's low. We're told by our our owner of our building. Uh, we had been there 16 years, that we needed to move out, and we needed to find a new place uh to do our business. I have this vivid dream of a lion circling our house, trying to attack our family. My my kids in my arm having a seizure. As I told you, I said, God, take me. Yeah, Patrick, here's a solution to this. Just sell me the company. Yeah. On August 1st, God really put me on my knees surrendering that bitterness and that anger to the Lord. If this had happened, if I had not surrendered that anger and that bitterness, and this had happened, everything would have come undone, the claim is shifting out of this time.
SPEAKER_01You might both feel called by God to do what we're doing here. We do. And uh to build a great culture. And uh I've been able to meet Patrick's team, uh his leadership team, uh, see his facility, and and that was incredible. And uh uh Patrick's here today, um uh visiting us today, spending time with us today, and he'll get a tour of of PWI as well.
SPEAKER_00Uh I'm excited. That's that's why I wanted to get down here. I wanted to come see your facility. Uh it was a surprise to have you at mine, but that was so much fun.
SPEAKER_01It's so great. And and I love I love I love comparing stories between between business owners, between CEOs, because I think we can always learn things.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So tell tell us um uh let's go back to 2019-2020. Oh and uh and uh and let's dive into to kind of what happened in this in this last season since since we met, uh since we met, um, and and kind of kind of the walk through that story a bit of of what happened and some of the hard things um sure that that you've been through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I'm gonna do that. Uh first just to give a little quick intro into who we are. Yes, please do that. So C C B technology, we're IT managed services. Yeah. Um we didn't start that way though. Yeah. So in 1991, dad started the business in the basement of our house uh to help nonprofits. Yeah. Uh so we started the charity program for Microsoft. Uh then that turned into doing hardware and other manufacturers. And so we ended up probably doing over, I don't know, 20,000 different lines uh of IT uh to get what year was this? Well, this was from 91 until 2011. Um we started really just supplying software hardware. That was it. And we didn't do any services. And then in 2011, with the merge of the cloud, we launched services. Okay. And my dad was with me and he said, Patrick, go do this. Uh I'm like, Dad, I don't know what I'm doing. He's like, Well, figure it out.
SPEAKER_01How old were you at that time?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, I don't want to know. Uh, let's see, 2011. Let's just say I was in my my I'm 48 now, so in the in my 30s, you know, right there. And so you were a young leader. Oh, I yeah, I did not know what I was doing. Okay. I knew to pray.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I knew that uh my dad had my back financially and emotionally, but I had to go do it. And the one thing I knew was go hire smart people, right? Because it's not about me. I can't do it on my own. You got to hire people around you. So we did that. So from 2011 until on, we're now considered a managed service provider. So we are doing IT services everything. We can do your projects, we can do your help desk, we can do your full patching, we can take care of everything, or we can co-manage. Um, and so that's who we are. Yeah, 35 years in business, still figuring out where we're going, especially with AI and how do we help businesses embrace this and not be scared of it. Yeah. Um, but also be aware that you have to be uh have guidelines and governances, or you will let this thing go out of control in your house. You don't want that. So that's who we are and what we do. But with that, in 2018, I bought the company from my parents on December 31st, 2018. Wow. So when you met me in 2019, which is really special that we did connect, uh it I was my first year owner of the business. Now I've been in the business for a long time. I'd been in the business since 2001.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But this was my first time as an owner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And things were stressing. Uh that I didn't, I what I thought 2019 was stressing. I had no idea what was coming. We didn't did any of us, right? No, no, no. None of us, right? So talk about you have a plan until you get hit in the mouth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, Mike Tyson, you know, and that and then that plan goes out the window because what are you going to do now, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So 2019, I was embracing with how do I manage finances? Yeah. How do I deal with this legacy? And it was such an honor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're you you respected your dad. Your dad was the founder, he was the guy, maybe a little controlling, all those things.
SPEAKER_00All founders, yeah. But he and my mentor. Yeah. So he guided me and taught me, but yeah, it's now on it's now it's on me. Yeah, it's not on my back. You don't care. Oh, nobody understands fully the second generation weight. Yeah. I talk about this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The pressure is the first generation did it. The second generation is, hey, don't screw it up, kid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no kidding.
SPEAKER_00And that's what I wear. And so in 2019, when you met me, I was an honor to hear Dave even choose us. Yes. We met. I'm like, and and I've been watching you uh as as you never know who's watching, but you know, I'm out there, I'm seeing your success. I'm thinking, I gotta reach out to this guy. I go, I've seen you you pour into your family, I've seen you pour into your culture, I've seen you pour into your your growth of your company. And I'm like, this is the guy that I want to run next to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that's so important in life. And so what's happened was in 2020 and all the way through, it's been challenge after challenge after 20. So uh 2020 was the COVID year, yeah. 2021 was the great resignation where I saw people leaving. So talk talk to me about that.
SPEAKER_01Um tell me what you experienced in 2021. With in and why do you think that happened? What what what caused that at CCB specifically? Uh can you can you figure that? Can you dive into that a bit more?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't think it was just CCB, it was the life in the industry coming out of 2020. Uh, people were panicking a little bit to figure out how to gain talent in a new way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because people weren't traveling. So how do you grab people to come in, the work-life balance? So people started throwing crazy money out there. Um, not sustainable, yeah, as I know things got taken away. Um, but we lost about six people, and we never lose people. And I say that because we're a small business, we're about 50 employees. Yeah, uh, but six, six people left within like two months. And that's unheard of in our in our company. Like you're, you know, you're here 15 years, 20 years, 30 years.
SPEAKER_01I met some of your team, they've been there for forever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, the reality is this was what is happening? And then it took, of course, I took it on the chin of myself of am I am I the reason they're leaving? Am I the the problem? Because they didn't do this when my dad was here. Yeah. And so um that was right.
SPEAKER_01That is such a isn't that what we do though? We installed. Well, you internalize it, right? You internalize it and you say, What am I doing wrong? Is my leadership?
SPEAKER_00And there's a point you should pause and say, have I had any influence on it? But to the weight that we take it so personal, yeah. Um, and I had to, I'm still working on that to not take things personal. Um, and it's it just was hard because I cared so much for them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they had to do what was best for their family. So that was 2021. We did come out of it. Um, one of the things I I made sure was to continue to show value to my current employees. Um, and so I I did. I I offered a bonus for people to stay. Uh I was like, hey, we're bleeding out on the operating table right now. How do we stop the bleeding? Yeah. And so I offered everyone a bonus to stay. If they stay till the end of the year, they would, they would uh get it. Um and uh anyways, it was just an opportunity to try to say, I care about you, yeah, I understand there's options out there, but unless I show you, yeah, because words matter, but actions are really powerful, even more. Um, so I had to show some action behind it, and that's what we did. And and and we've been dealing with different things ever since. Yes, but it never stops as I people ask, how are you doing? I'm like, it's not boring. Life is not boring.
SPEAKER_01No kidding. Um, if you if you want boring, don't don't become a CEO or a right.
SPEAKER_00I miss the the fine print on that, but you know, I never told you that.
SPEAKER_01I'm in it now. So you know, I saw my dad stress out about stuff. I saw him feel the weight of that. Uh, but you you don't really, you don't really, I I think I've told you this, uh, Patrick, you didn't really feel the weight. I didn't feel the weight until he was gone. Uh until I actually truly felt uh because I was somewhat-ish running the company unless you were you were in the business and all that. But when he was gone at the end of 2017, um, man, I felt this. Oh yeah, it's actually on me. I'm I'm gonna screw this up. I'm I'm second generation, I'm gonna screw this up and I'll lose it, right? And uh there's just it's just there's this real pressure, this weight that you don't expect.
SPEAKER_00Same thing happened to me. My dad used to always say to me, Hey Patrick, one day I won't be here to talk with you. Yeah, and you're gonna really then realize how much it was been nice to talk to me. And I remember thinking, like, well, dad, that's a little prideful, like you know, and he was but I it's so true. Literally, my dad passed in February uh of 2023, February 16th, 2023. And um the next couple weeks later, I I told you this yesterday. Um, we were told by our our owner of our building, uh, we had been there 16 years, that we needed to move out and we needed to find a new place uh to do our business. And I felt like, why is this happening to me now? And I expressed my this is like the worst time, they didn't care. They're like, listen, this is what we need, and and you know, they have to do their business, but I was like, Lord, why? Why now? Right. And then I felt like my dad is never going to see the next place. And and it a lot of it was emotional. Like I wanted to be, I was in my dad's office. Yeah, I'm like, I I could see him when I had meetings with there. I didn't want to lose that memory. Yeah, um, and so there was a lot of pressure of how did this happen and what did I do wrong and all these things. And then I'm like, I dad, I really could use you right now. And I and of course I prayed. Um, just I said, Dad, you're pretty funny. And God, you know, in the sense of humor of here we are, and I'm wish I could talk to my dad. It was weeks after his passing that I'm like, man, dad, you were right. You nailed it once again. I wish I could do. But God guided me through it. Yeah, it was truly a blessing. I threw a SOS out there, literally on LinkedIn, with the bat symbol in the air, saying, if anybody knows of buildings, yeah, let me know. Because I knew that people weren't using things for it. Found a building that wasn't even on the market, I mean, at the time. And uh guy called me and said, Hey, there's a place I think's perfect for you guys. I went and saw it, and it was uh, you know, well, perfect in the sense of when I walked in, the colors were our colors already. Um, it had a pool table. I had always dreamed of having a pool table. It's so silly, right? But the things that you look for of does God care about me? Does God care about the little details? Does he care about the desires of your hearts? I think he does, and I can see that. Yeah, um, you know, we have people working uh remotely because it isn't enough space for everyone to be in there. Um but we have enough.
SPEAKER_01You have a ton of office space. We do, we have we have enough. It's a big facility.
SPEAKER_00Oh thanks.
SPEAKER_01But don't don't go past what you said there. Uh your your your dad passes away in um in February. Um in in the in the time between his passing in the memorial service. The week of this the week of. The week of this this this uh this phone call comes to you out of the blue. And and did did what it what did they give you time wise?
SPEAKER_00I mean, they they were like, Yeah, thankfully I think we had time. And that's where I want to be fair and not misrepresent. Like they they let they said, here's the deal, it's March. We're gonna let you go until your end of your contract, which was the end of May. Okay. Um, which was still that doesn't I mean gracious.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if that's I don't know if I call that gracious or not.
SPEAKER_00It wasn't a week. Yeah, you got two weeks. Oh my goodness. So, you know, we're gonna be able to do that is absolutely crazy. So we we did, and we we made it. And honestly, my team, my team took over. Yeah, um, plus during that time I'm grieving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, I'm I'm I throw myself into work, but I needed to get away. And um, and it wasn't the move that was the worst, it was the general contracting to get the building ready. Of course. Um, all the things that were happening.
SPEAKER_01Three months is insane to get that all done.
SPEAKER_00It it was thankfully, it was not the whole building that we had to redo, but we had to do uh a quarter of it, and that quarter of it got done. Yeah, it all came together. We're knocking down walls, we're putting up walls, we're designing offices, doing tile. As I joked with you, everything was a ten thousand dollar bill, it felt like. And I'm like, holy did is there a memo out that says charge Patrick minimum ten thousand dollars? 99.50, he'll he'll say yes. He'll say done. This is a deal. Yeah, so um, but God provided. Yeah. I mean, I I it's so easy to to forget that. Yeah, yeah, but by these questions and the telling the story, yeah, yeah, it was hard. Yeah, it was unexpected, and no, it was another punch in the mouth.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about the distance from old office to new, because it's always a challenge. I mean, sure, you had you have an existing office, you have employees that are driving there every day. Yep. Was that was that a pro or a con for your team members to move in they had two months to figure out can I drive an extra 20 minutes or what? What does that what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it depends on where you're located, of course, right? Which employee? The best part of it was we had two locations at the time. We had our main hub, um, and then we had our services at a different place.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And that wasn't the ideal situation, but we ran out of space. They did not know that. So by we were saying, well, if we ever do move, we would want to put everyone in one place. And we actually had been talking to the owners about expanding at the current location, and they were like, Yeah, sure, no problem. So that's why this was complete, uh, complete surprise. Yeah, because we thought we were on the same page of expanding and doing a longer content. Getting actually more space. But talk about a blessing. Now I own my building. Yeah. And this will never happen to me again. Yeah, you know, because I own the building. That's right. And um, and that was just my dad never owned a building. So I was in completely uncharted waters before.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So this was one of those things where my 2023 was the first year that CCB owned real estate. I mean, first time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We just never had done that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, it's great. I, you know, I I we always say we're we're a bit of control freaks. We like to control at PBY, we do. We just like, you know, we we make promises to customers, we make promises to our team members, and to to have that not in your control with with property, with real estate, with with services we provide, with machinery we're purchasing. We're always trying to keep things in-house. Yep. Um, maybe to a fault, but we we we we always shine, Joe, we are control freaks. So I do feel like a real estate is one of those things.
SPEAKER_00Well, when things happen to you, you under it makes sense why you want to control it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I can't wait to show you today because we now we now have over a hundred acres of real estate to to grow into. And uh my dad was part of that vision. Um my dad, I I always wanted to buy more equipment and hire more people. He said, We we gotta be thinking about real estate. You're gonna grow this thing after I'm gone. And and and he he's my dad was um was was a visionary that way, especially, especially with real estate. Like he kept, he wanted he always wanted to buy more property you know to the north and to the south of us. And when it came up, you know, open to buy, you know, that half a million dollars. Remember back in the day we bought this this this one lot, and I was like, just you know, we could we could do all kinds of stuff with half a million dollars. Yeah, but now I am so I mean we're we're using all of it now, like sections of it. We had to do a septic system on the one area, we're we're putting a new corporate office up in a few years. And so there's just there's just things. Um I'm thankful for his vision on that. But again, control having your own office. I'm I'm so glad that you have that now.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think that was my dad's fear too, of of being stuck somewhere.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I but when we're in these opportunities, you have to make a decision. Yeah. I and and yeah, I could have kept renting, yeah, but my my heart told me, let's not ever get into this spot again. And so I'm I'm just dipping my toe into the real estate aspect, but uh I do enjoy that my place, my employees have a place that they actually say this feels more like us, yeah, then and we're using it every day, and uh the employees are enjoying it. And you know, again, God provided it was not in the way I planned it. Yeah, so I would encourage anybody listening or watching this that bottom line is if you do have plans, keep your hands open.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, amen.
SPEAKER_00Because as soon as you grip and you hang on to it, um, that is not a good place to be because first of all, it hurts your hands. Second of all, um, it's just not realistic that you can hold on to something like that, you know.
SPEAKER_01And God's got other plans many, many times, as we as we live. Sometimes the hard things, the hard things he took you through days after your dad passed away ended up being a blessing in the long run.
SPEAKER_00It was.
SPEAKER_01Uh so a lot of a lot of business owners uh uh argue about this. And I and you know, you know, first of all, owning real estate or not, or you know, or leasing, it's a big, it's a big discussion point. Uh and and then the second part of that is is is is it does CCB technology own that uh uh as a company, or did you did you have did you start another LLC uh to own the real estate and you're leasing that from yourself? I mean how does how what'd you what'd you discover there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well I had to do research because I never had done it. So I did create a separate LLC. I was advised to do that um and created a name and a business for that, and then they bought the building and then CCB technology rents to me. Now, good as Dave Ramsey would say, you're just moving pot your money from the back pocket to the front pocket because it's all your money, anyways. And I'm like, oh crap, that's right. Yeah, but but it makes sense. But for me, it's a a separation that if uh if I ever do need to um part ways with CCB or part ways with the building, yeah, it's it neither one's gonna get hit at the same time. Yeah, it's a separation, right? And that's where I did it that way.
SPEAKER_01Uh uh just just a few comments on that. We so so just it's just a thing that I think we discuss a lot as a company. We we actually were separate at one time, and then we actually combine it all together. Interesting. And uh and I I think tax-wise, some of those things we're probably missing some advantages there. The reason we did it is because it was hard to get profit from the business over to the real estate company. Sure. Because we're we're we've been building for 10 years straight, to building construction something. So we need half a million dollars over here to add on to this building, and and it's a tax liability to move it from the uh the real estate LLC over to over to the yeah, so it's just so moving it back and forth. You're in a completely different situation. We are, but it but it is a thing there that I think we could dig back into, and I should talk that about that with our CFO Dean and just get my head around that a bit more. But it's it is it is an interesting conversation because I know there's there's people that are very passionate about doing it certain ways. Uh we've we've pressed the easy button and said we want easy. If there's cash in our bank account, we can we can have the build add to the building this year or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Sure, sure. I'm with you on that one for sure.
SPEAKER_01So it's 2023, your dad, uh your dad's passed away, it's all in your lap now. Uh there's other things going on in in your in your family, your business. Let's let's hit your family first.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01And then uh and then you know I got to meet some of your team as well, uh, which is awesome. But a lot of that lot of change there as well. We want to we wanna we want to go there after this, but start with family.
SPEAKER_00If life is not boring for me.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah. I it's uh but we we we started out by saying it's all in the same bucket. So it's all and so family is such uh a big part of it's it's uh I always tell our team members it's it's it's the why. I I don't I don't do all this for this. I do this right because I I wanna I want to go home to my family on the weekends and and support them and care for them. And and um it's it's it's too hard just to be about that. And so I do I do it for the for the next generation. I have I have I have a third generation coming up and up that I'm excited about.
SPEAKER_00Um and and so I mean working with family is it's a whole nother level as well. Yeah um but it is a blessing that we we have this. Yeah. So so yeah, so family, I can I'm happy to share anything you can.
SPEAKER_01Jump into jump into family, uh uh you know, the the story about some things that went that went we're roughly.
SPEAKER_00So 2023 wasn't the end of the surprises. Yeah. So after uh dad passed, the building, things come in three, they say uh my son uh got uh diagnosed with an eating disorder at 13 years old at that time uh in October of 2023. And we what happened was I started uh after my dad passed and everything, I started working out to really try to get healthy. I know you can't tell today because it's a couple years ago, but I got I got healthy and I was about uh dropped about 40 pounds because I was working out every day and really doing that and being committed. Um what I didn't realize is that my son was also going to the gym and working out with me. I knew that, but I didn't realize he was restricting food. Oh and so um, you know, teenagers are growing up, they're maturing, you're like, oh, he's getting taller, right? Yeah. And when you get taller, you get thinner, right? Well, one day I remember watching him run on the treadmill at a very high speed for quite a while. And we got in the car and I was like, hey man, you really worked out hard today. He's like, Yeah, I felt really good. I was like, hey, make sure you need to uh add calories, you need to refuel, you need to go home and eat. What do you you know? He's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, so I checked in with him like later that day. I was like, hey, would you eat? Because it was playing in my mind. And again, the fact I even noticed was a godsend that I noticed. And again, you're thinking, Patrick, how did you not see this? Like when you're going through life and and kids can hide it, they wear baguette clothes and everything.
SPEAKER_01So when I asked him, he's he just clarified, he's 13 years old.
SPEAKER_00He was 13 at the time. Yeah, yeah, he's 16 today. Yeah, just turned 16, great kid. Um, but uh, and was an unbelievable kid, super responsible. Like he came. I always said I wanted to be him when I grew up. Um, so when I asked him, What did you eat today? It was very clear. He said he ate like a rice cake. And I'm like, No, no. So that led to my wife and I talking. I'm like, hey, I something's something's I'm concerned. She's like, Are you sure? I'm like, Yeah, yeah, we need to get him on a scale. So we get him on a scale, and he's probably at 110 at this point. And he's probably 5'7, 110. And my wife's like, he was 120, 123, I think, in the beginning of summer. So I'm like, okay, well, that's not good. We need to figure this out, right? And you know, people are like Like, what's the big deal? I'm like, you start to see the reality of this isn't just him getting help. He already was fit. Yeah. Like there wasn't much to lose. Yeah. So we got him to counseling. Um, and then that ended up into him going into children's in December, I think a week before Christmas. Um, we had an episode where we just saw that he wouldn't eat his food. Like there was there was crying, there was um just frustration, and we're like, we need help. And so he he he played, he was playing basketball, and we told him you can play basketball only if you refuel and people are like, What are you guys doing? Right, yeah. Hey, we're like everyone else. We're trying to figure out how to be a parent, we're not trying to push him in the wrong direction. Um, but at the same time, we were like, How do we give him space? And so when we saw that he got sick and we put him back on the scale, at this point he was 98 pounds.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00And we're like, okay, enough. So we went to children's uh in Milwaukee, which was about 40 minutes away. Dude, I this is it and there's nothing to lose, anyways, right? Yeah, and they're like, Yeah, he absolutely needs to be checked in right now. Um, and so he was there for a week and we were just praying every day, God, will you please, please help him fight this battle? And will you please help him get home for Christmas? Uh, because I have three other kids and and we all love each other and we, you know, not perfect family, but we all love each other. And um, we just wanted Jackson home, right? And until he did. He he got home. Um, and then January 24, I'm I'm in uh Omaha, Nebraska at an IT conference, and I have this vivid dream of a lion circling our house trying to attack our family. And in the Bible, we talk about how the devil is like roaring the lion out there trying to devour us. And I'm like, I told my wife, I'm like, I don't know what's coming, but there's a lion in our backyard. And uh, and I'm I'm not this guy that thinks so you know, all my dreams matter, but this one felt so real that I didn't know. And so um, it was that that next week, my wife and I realized we had to check him back into the hospital. Um, we found him hiding food. Uh we thought we were on the right, he was white knuckling it basically, doing all the things he needed to get time, uh, but it really wasn't. So we got him back into the hospital. Um, and then this time uh he refused to do the treatment. Um he went and talked to us. Um it was uh it was the hardest thing because um he's a great kid, but he was in such a dark place. So with that, um unfortunately, but fortunately, um we had to put him into a treatment center out of the hospital. Um he hated us. Man, he told us he hated us.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And we went there every day to visit him and he refused to see us. Um and that was heartbreaking because as a parent, I felt like did I just did I just abandon my son? Yeah, and and and yet we knew he needed help to get through it. And to this day I can say he is fully recovered. No, he's a 16-year-old boy driving, working, plays basketball. I he's like around 175 pounds. Oh, good. He's as tall as me, he's about six one. Yeah, so you know, the hardest part was for for, but that was two years of hell, man.
SPEAKER_01Man, um, and how long did that season last? I mean, like, like so you're in that you're in the hospital there, though he won't talk to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, is that a is that a date? Did it come around just a few months? Yeah, it was uh it was about a week that he refused to talk to us. Um, and then we would come visit, but it was very strained, very strained. Um, and people would visit him and and everything, and it was a lot of just massive tension. And then on top of that, we kept our kids homeschooled. So we kept them in this private kind of bubble. He's now in the world, he is fully in the world. Because you're not just is he the oldest son? No, my daughter's the oldest. He's second. Okay, my nephew actually is part of our life. He's the oldest at 20. Daughter's eight, uh, well, 20, he's 21, daughter's at 20. He's now Jackson's at 16, and my youngest is uh now 11. Nice. And so they're they're all spaced out, you know. Uh, at least the the two older ones are are cut, we're all they're cousins, but five months apart. And um, the thing about Jackson though, um, is that he always God always had a hand on his life. I mean, this kid was doing Bible study at six in the morning. Again, things I wish I was doing. Yeah. Um, the the reality though is when he was in the treatment center, he was now with everyone with all sorts of yeah, battles. And I thought, what happens? What about if somebody assaults some every terrible movie that I've ever seen about uh the staff mistreating the patients, the the the patients mistreating each other. So God protected him. It was hard. So that took us all the way from uh January 2024 all the way until really the end of 2024. Wow. Um, I mean, he was out of the treatment center um by May.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We actually took our family on a vacation that week and said, let's get out of here. My wife, again, wives have great clarity and insight. She's like, we need to get out of here. I'm like, uh, that's next week. She's like, I know, plan a trip and let's get out of here. And I'm like, what? So, but she was right, and we did. We got out as a family, uh, and it was good. And then and then we had to do all the appointments. There was so much treatment. But for anybody out there, first of all, it is hard, but you're not alone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, if you have any questions on this, yeah, I know my wife and I would always be willing to help. Everyone's got different battles with different kids. It it can come and go in different ways.
SPEAKER_01So when you're when your kids aren't doing well, I mean, oh my gosh. And they're they're they it's it's everything. And so and when your kids are struggling, and and I've watched my kids struggle through some really tough times, you know, uh, not in the eating disorder, but we all have they all have their battle, right? And so um just so grateful for my children. Uh, but it but it is when they're when they're struggling and wrestling through tough times, it is it it it wrecks up.
SPEAKER_00It's a moment of clarity. Yeah, I mean, if you really get to it, I mean, I'm so focused on business all the time. Yeah, uh, checking my email. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's the biggest thing that weighs on me, right? Well, when my my kid's in my arm, yeah, having a seizure, as I told you, I said, God, take me. Yeah, just give him a chance to live, right? Truly, as a father would do, lay down his life for his family. That's what I was willing to. I was like, just do it, just take it all. Take the business, take the money. Nothing. Just give me my son back, please. Yeah. Um, God hasn't done that. I mean, he's giving me my son back, but he hasn't taken my business. Um, I'm I'm very thankful that God has been there on this journey. It is a battle, though. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01One thing that I um I've I've told people, I I remember coming back from the hospital 20 years ago. My oldest son uh Dawson uh is is uh 20. And um and bringing I have a picture of him um coming home and in the in the car seat, and I have a picture of sitting on the front porch of our house. And I remember bringing him home, sitting on you know the front porch. I was getting the keys to unlock the door or whatever. We lived in a little thousand square foot home in Napany. And uh and I and I was like, what am I doing here? Like this is like we have this little we have this little you know soul here. Like it's like it's our it's our thing. It just it just it just hit me. It hit me in two ways, the responsibility of the whole thing, but also in just what you just said. I I I I that probably opened my eyes uh like never before to to the love of Christ for me. Um we we are we are sons of the father as well, and and he laid down his life for us. And so uh I you or you or I would die for our our kids right now, right? And so you see that I saw that picture more clearly than I've ever seen it because I was a I was a father for the you know for the first time.
SPEAKER_00And so absolutely it's a it's a it's a heavy moment, it's a real moment. Yeah, um, and we all have those. Yeah. I wish the story could be like, oh, Patrick was you know you know great for his kids and all that stuff. I was there, but then that also led into uh in 2025, fast forward through all these years after I got through it. When you have time to breathe, yeah, then the anger came on. The anger came on of why did you do this, God? Yeah, why did you attack Jackson? Which, first of all, that's the wrong way to say it. Let me just say that, right? That's what I was saying in my head, right? You did this, God. It wasn't God that attacked Jackson. It was Satan who attacked Jackson. It was evil, and it is also consequences of what we do when we're in our fleshly desires. Right. Uh, Jackson, it was what we found out later is it was driven by anxiety. Anxiety comes from trying to meet the world's expectations, uh, be perfect, you know, have to look everything, has to look great. And so what that turned to me though, and where I failed, yeah, is that turned into me blaming God that it even happened. So my blessing, my praises turned into anger and bitterness. And that started spilling out um because once I knew he was safe, then I was like, oh, I can breathe. And then I was like, Well, wait a minute. What the heck was this all about? Yeah. Why'd you even make us go through this, right? And also during the time my my son had his faith uh has been challenged because he's like, I did everything right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I did I did the Bible study thing, I gave up doing fun things to to to honor the Lord, and I got put in the situation. And then he's like, But even if even maybe God has a plan for me, I can see that. Yeah. What about all these other people that never come to God? Yeah. Why does he allow these things to happen to them? I'm like, Jackson, you are asking a very good question, and I am so not qualified to answer this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't think anybody is. Jackson, uh, God has a plan in this, and it isn't to hurt us, it's to prosper us. We know that, Jeremiah 29, 11 through 13, that's the verse I grab. But the reality is, what I didn't realize is that that that bitterness and that anger started to just take over my heart and make it hard. Wow. And so through that, and I've shared this with you, and I'm an open book about this, because I have to be. It's it's where we all can go. You start to say, This isn't a blessing, this is a curse. Yeah, this business isn't a blessing, it's a curse. Yeah. This house that we have on 10 acres, it never ends. Yeah, it's a curse. Yeah. Why did you give me this house? Give me a small house, give me a small, you know, give me something I can manage, right? Um, why'd you give me uh kids with uh that I have to pour into versus can they just be perfect all the time? Like, you know, it's you start you start realizing that it's it's about me, my problem. It's my expectations that I have, and that I am just saying, all right, God, I want to be in control, not you. Yeah, and that just kept turning into more and more, which affected my marriage, affected my relationship with my kids.
SPEAKER_01But by God's grace, it also affected your your business and all of it.
SPEAKER_00By business relationships, yeah, as you mentioned, all of that transition. I have to look at myself and say, I do have responsibility in this. And so I would encourage anybody out there, yeah, be careful. Yeah, be careful. I've been there. Yeah, be better than me. Don't do what I do. Um don't take your eyes off the Lord.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That that podcast you're talking about, I put, I was sinking and now I'm singing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I was sinking and now I've given it to the Lord. It is not perfect. I am struggling every day. Yeah. I hit my knees this morning and I said, God, have this day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know fully how why I'm here, how I got here, other than I have a great guy named Ryan who has helped me get here. Um, but I said, God, you have a plan here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And we are talking about even if it's for us to encourage each other or this podcast.
SPEAKER_01That's the that's the goal.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh I think, I think uh I don't know if you're in any peer groups or not, but I oh yeah, I have found that peer groups are just you know, we we as as owners, the the weight falls on us, and sometimes there's just things that we want to talk about that we need to talk about with other with other business owners that are in the same place that we are. In the same room, yeah. Yeah, the same room. And so those have been very, very parenting impactful. Talk to other parents. You're like, how do you parent your teenager, right? Right. And it doesn't mean you have to do it exactly like them, but you learn. You do. I always get ideas. I always get ideas of do of new things we can be doing. Um both, yeah, friends on the parenting side or or uh peer groups in the business. And so that's what this is today. It's just uh uh having accountability is also super important.
SPEAKER_00So I mean having somebody that you can talk to is super important, but it's the accountability. Yeah that's that's the thing that I needed in my life, and we have it with partners if you allow that accountability. I also think it's really important to have somebody outside of your spouse for accountability. So I started meeting with an elder from my church um as we were I was going through so much uh in 2025. Um, and that was a huge difference uh for me. I also sought biblical counseling. Yeah, um, I needed somebody to talk to that pointed me back to the Lord and pushed on me. Um, was it my spouse? Yeah, because that doesn't usually go well. It doesn't go well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's right. And there's a the it's that outside perspective really, really does help. And I'm glad you've you've found an elder to uh talk with. I I have a group of uh I have several different groups I meet with. I have I have I have uh I have uh two different pair groups, one local and one um national. Yeah, yeah, one more national. And then there's um and then there's um uh three dudes that I meet with once a month.
SPEAKER_00Sure.
SPEAKER_01We get grab coffee, talk about us and life and marriage and problems and morality and all those things to talk about, right? And so just kept trying to keep me uh accountable and and it's just it's so it's so powerful. I love I love those guys. So um let's let's go into let's go so you man.
SPEAKER_00I know my life this is it's it's it's a full of a lot of opportunity to discuss this. I'll just let you open up whatever you want.
SPEAKER_01So um, man, you you you you have all the you you've built this business, your dad built the business, you took it over, um, and your dad's gone. Uh, you have all these problems in your family, God takes you through this journey. It's really kind of a job story. I mean, honestly, like it's it's a you know, and even even it involves marriage. I mean, Job's wife said, curse God and die, you know, like this isn't this isn't worth it, you know. And Job maintained uh with the help of some friends, right? Or they they weren't great friends half the time, but um they they showed up for him. Let's put it that way. They at least showed up for him, right? Uh but through all that, now you're back at CCB, yeah, you're sitting there, um, you got a leadership team built around you and all that. And then let's let's dive into what's happened in the past uh months.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, there's one big thing to add to it because it adds to the story. When when in 2022, uh I named um my VP of services my president, sure Logan. And so while I was going through the reason I did that is it wasn't be it was before my dad's passing, um, but my dad had a spinal cord injury in 21. Um so he passed in um 23, but he had uh a battle of being paralyzed after a freak accident, falling down, and it never recovered. Yeah, and so with that, um, we also had my VP of finance had quit um with no notice. So I was drowning, trying to keep afloat. And I'm not wired that way. Yeah, I am a visionary, I am a guy that says, give me marketing, give me sales, give me uh human resources. I I love talking with people, but uh when it gets to the finances and the services and all that stuff, I am needing the people who can do that really well to do it. And that was gone. Yeah, my part of my brain was gone because that person owned that. And so I brought Logan in as president because he is or we are opposites, he is super or detailed.
SPEAKER_01Was Logan an outside hire for you?
SPEAKER_00No, he he had so Logan Logan at that time um would have been with me for 15 years. Wow. So he had done he started in sales and moved his way into different positions of vice presidents. Uh he was on the services side, which is very detail-oriented, uh quality driven. Um, watched the numbers, yeah, all of it. And so he moved into the president role and I said, I need you to take this on for me because I just can't do it. And he did.
SPEAKER_01So talk let's let's so then and I know there's a lot of change since then, but maybe pause that for a minute. Thanks for bringing that up, uh reminding me of that. Um let's talk a little bit about that deal because I'm sure we we've I'm president CEO of our company. President is that's what I was you were, I'm sure. Yep. Uh tell me about that that that split. How did you get there to that point? And and what what took you to the point? How did you figure out it's time for a president? Yeah, I'm gonna be the visionary CEO, which is which is absolutely what I what I um tend to as well. I I I don't like the details. I hate the word processes and procedures and policies. It drives me crazy. So, but I like I like to know where we're going, where we're heading, the big picture. Sure. What what when was the right time for you to say uh I I know you had some some some things happen in your life there, but how did you get to the point where I'm gonna hand my baby to the president who who really is leading the company for you? Right. Um and what it's good. How did you get there? And then and then how did you split your roles?
SPEAKER_00I didn't get there. Yeah. So a couple backup, a couple things. Um, when I was president CEO, uh, well, I was president in 2013. I became CEO when I bought the company uh in 2018. Um, so you know, I had four years to be president and CEO uh until 2022. Um what happened was when I realized I was under so much pressure with the VP of Finance, and I realized I was struggling to really figure this out. I mean, I'd given it a try. She quit on December 7th, uh, 2021. Day will always stay in my brain. And then here we are in August, and I sat down with Logan, and Logan had already said to me, I would love to tag team this with you. Wow, divide and conquer. He had put that out there years, uh, even before uh I was ready to, and I said, Hey, here's the deal, man. I I gotta make sure I can set the house up. I'm not sure when that's gonna happen. He's like, I understand that, but I would love the opportunity to divide and conquer with you, right? Yeah, and we didn't do EOS at the time, we didn't understand that whole thing, uh, at least when he first pitched it. But when we brought it up in 2022, it was clear we had started our our uh venture on EOS, yeah, and that talked about the visionary and it talked about the integrator. Yes. And Logan's like, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said divide and conquer, right? So it was already the seed had already been thrown out there, it had been planted, Logan wanted it. I also, out of fear, I didn't want to lose Logan, yeah, to be honest. I was like, hey, this guy is gonna get an offer someday. I want him to be with us. But then I also reached the capacity of I am out of my strength area of expertise. Logan is so wired and good at this, he loves it. While I'm like, oh my gosh, like I my head is drowning in this. And so um it was made logical sense. And then meanwhile, uh my dad had that injury and my mom needed me. I mean, we were we were tag teaming, trying to take care of my dad. He was in a nursing home. Um, it was a lot. And so, um, and this is even before you know all the other stuff happened later with my my son. So it was the right time to bring somebody in. Sure. It was already, we already knew it was a good thing. I had to come to the reality that I was failing in these details, and that I wasn't, you know, and that's a hard place as a CEO um and uh as a president because I I took pride in of oh, I know the details, I'm an overseer to give up. So it really was letting go of control, yeah, but also embracing that there's somebody else that can do this better than that.
SPEAKER_01I trusted Logan because I mean to clarify that you you brought Logan in uh to do this, but he was a 15-year veteran of the business.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that probably gave you a lot more, a lot more uh But I also and and also my dad gave it to me. So to be fair, you you end up kind of doing things in your house that you were modeled before you, not everything. Yeah, so the way I did it is well, my dad named me president, and so Logan had followed me in most positions. I never went over to the services side, so he definitely went a different direction than I did, but it was the right direction for him to be able to come in as president because I think that actually helped him lead better than I did in the sense of understanding services and help services.
SPEAKER_01The other side of your of your house. Of the house, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I was an overseer, but he was in the trenches. He knew what customers needed. It's big, he knew the gaps that we needed to fix so we could be a better company, which we have done in since 2026, you know.
SPEAKER_01So so uh, and people are probably familiar with EOS. I I certainly am. We're we're we're not on EOS, and I I have friends that are friends that swear by it, right? And all that. Uh we we we we we always say we're EOS-ish. There's a lot of things we do, yeah. All of our meeting rhythms and things like that. We we set the goals annual, we do annual offsites, we do a lot of the things like that.
SPEAKER_00There's implementers out there that's twitching right now. My friend Justin's gonna go crazy right now because he's like, I drive my guy crazy too. Because I'm like, hey, just so you know, I'm probably not gonna stick to it. He's like, you gotta stick to some core value. I'm like, I'll stick to the core values, but don't let this thing be a straitjacket to me. That's that's definitely how I feel.
SPEAKER_01And I've I've heard some people that are on it uh as well. I've heard the uh the negatives of of just you know I'm learning. You've you've got to cater it to your to yourself. Build your own system that works. And so I uh our our team is always open to discuss, you know, the next option. But the the I I've read Rocket Fuel, the the visionary integrator, the yeah, love that analogy because it because it resonated so much with me. How did so so Logan Logan then ran the operations of the business? What what did you what did you keep hold of as as the be honest with me here? We're we're control freaks a bitter. What did you keep hold of when when you handled Logan that that role and announced that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I I did it how my dad did it, and I gave Logan everything.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Which um I think at that time, yeah, we had talked about does HR stay underneath me uh because of the culture is defined by the visionary. Um, but I said, you know what, Logan, just take it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now, looking back at it, later we had many conversations of Logan, you don't like marketing. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I mean you know sales because you did sales, but is that really your thing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because I asked so many questions of what are the reps doing? Where are their activity? Where's the phone calls? Where's the reaching out? Where's the events? All this stuff. Logan is taskmaster oriented. So he, and I said, you really belong in finance, services, yeah, operations. I really belong in HR, sales, and marketing, right? But we didn't do it that way. Instead, I gave him everything and that created frustrations for me and him because when they say I came back, I never left, but I came back where I wasn't in, I wanted to be part of meetings. Yeah. I took myself out of all the meetings. The only meeting I had was with Logan.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And what happened was it got really frustrating for Logan and me. I but probably more for Logan. Yeah. Is I was like, Well, did you ask this? Did you ask this? And and what about this? And he's like, Hey, Patrick, I'm I'm I'm sorry, but I don't think like that. And I'm like, Well, you need to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And he's like, but I'm not you.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, I know, but these are the things that I need details on. And so it became hard because Logan wanted so bad to give me what I needed. Yeah. But it was so hard. Then people are like, Why is Patrick in this meeting?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's like, Well, it's just easier than me having to like try to remember everything. And then it felt clunky to me because now I I mean I enjoyed being in the meetings, but it also felt weird. Like, and and then what is your role there? Well, people are like, Do we have two boss?
SPEAKER_01Do I have two bosses? That's right. And or which which boss do you which boss makes the call? And I work for Logan.
SPEAKER_00Well, that and that's what happened. Yeah. Logan and I have opposite personalities. Yeah. So he is even keel. He is consistent. He is, I'm emotional, not yelling at people, but I'm like, hey, let's go do this. Let's go now. Let's go attack this, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And uh, and and I'm thinking about let's get creative. Let's and and Logan's just like, hey, just you do what you need to do. Yeah. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. We need to have a plan and we need to attack it today. And Logan's like, our speeds are also very different. Yeah. And so um, so it was very frustrating. And people, people were confused of who's really running this? Is it you? And Logan was like, hey, I he felt it. So the clunkiness became very clear, as they say, when Patrick returned, it was different. And the meanwhile, um Were you in the office? Like, just clarify that. Were you in the office every day as a CEO? But you were kind of locked in your own office when you and Logan would do it. We're hybrid. We're hybrid. So after 2020, which I never thought we would ever do, right? But we had to do it. Uh, we brought people brought people back two days a week. Um, there are some departments like services that are in um four days a week. Sure. Marketing has been in five days a week. I'm in the office now every day. Okay. I need separation from my personal life. Um, but it is an option. So yeah, most of the time we were in at least two or three days a week. Um you weren't you weren't you weren't in Miami on the beach, hanging on.
SPEAKER_01No, no, no, no, no. That was not the deal. No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00First of all, I don't golf because I'm terrible. So I'm golfing charity events. Yeah, uh, I don't have time for that. Um I quit that as well. I suck. One person looked at me and said, Well, definitely you spend a lot of time in the office because you suck at golf. And I'm like, Thank you very much. Um, but no, I was not this guy just living a life away from the business at all. I was in my email, and I think that's another thing. My dad was, he checked his email, but he literally was ready to go. Now, when I gave the reins over to Logan, you know, this is 2022. So, you know, we're talking four years uh, you know, go-ish, right? So I was 44.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I said, Logan, my dad was in his 60s when he gave me the president role.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So I said, there's a big difference. I'm not ready to retire, bro. Yeah, yeah, right. You know, and so there is a big difference. So that was a that was a big difference for me that I just didn't realize. And so with that, um, Logan did great with so many things. The company brew with profits. Yeah, um, he managed expenses way better than me. Yeah, I love to be Santa Claus. He loves got it. Yeah, right. You want you want cameras? Got it. You you want to spend marketing, you got it, right? Because it felt good to to I'm a people pleaser. Yeah. So I'm like, if if you like me, yeah, I'm walking out of the room feeling like, all right, I just did my job.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, Logan's like, I don't care if you like me or not. Yeah, this is the budget and this is what we're gonna do, yeah. Which is what I needed. So, but with all that, I think it led to frustrations. And there's a whole story. Logan Logan ended up moving to Nashville. Uh like I want to end with that. So that's the last, that's recent, right? Oh, we're talking in July 2025. Yeah, he moved to Nashville.
SPEAKER_01But uh but I want to I want to get our picture, our head around your your shift, and just the reality of businesses is hard, and and even at the leadership level, there's changes and shifts, and you're you're in the middle of of that, or you're just going through some of that. Uh we're in the thick of it, yeah. But I want to understand uh like when you came back in, okay? Yeah, and and and you were you were there. Did that mean did you mean back into the meetings? Do you mean back in yeah, you were were you president CEO?
SPEAKER_00Or did you pull the president rule back, but you yeah, I like the air quotes because I I always say I never left people. I it's not like I just disappeared, yeah, but I did take myself out of the meetings. So I put myself back in the meetings.
SPEAKER_01Back into the meetings and uh you didn't change the org chart. Uh, you you left the org chart. I left the org chart defined. Did you re-grab marketing uh uh in I was in the meetings, okay?
SPEAKER_00I was in the meetings. Um we did have a transition there where our VP of marketing retired, so we our VP of sales and marketing took uh came together, okay, very good, which was a good thing. That's interesting. Interesting. Um, but um, and we tried a lot of good new things, which was great. The the thing though is I had questions, and again, even uh Steve at the time, he and I were very similar, even more similar than Logan. Yeah, um, but we also had this was his first time doing the marketing gig. Yeah, right, right. And he did a lot of good creative things for sure, looking at it, and we're still doing those things today. But there was definitely some things that I was used to getting asked questions on uh before things were just done. Yeah, and instead things were done because Logan said sure. And and then um, and there was one incident where uh I realized that there was some money spent that I would have done it in a different direction. So then I came in and I said, okay, timeout, we're putting a rule in. Um, anything over a thousand dollars needs to be um put past my nose. Sure. Well, what I didn't realize is how that really took away some um comfortableness for the team. Yeah, because they they basically read exactly what I was saying, which is I need to control this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um there's a there's that trust almost a trust broken there a bit as well.
SPEAKER_00It was I was frustrated. I was frustrated looking back at it. Now, could I have done it differently? Probably. Yeah. I said, you know, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_01But they also weren't doing things the the way you wanted them to either, right?
SPEAKER_00So I mean and that's the thing as a leader. You are the owner, right? So they always say let it go. Yeah, let people do it the way they want to do it. My question is, what happens though, yeah, if you don't get the results, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, people are gonna fail, but fail forward, right? Yeah, fail and fall forward, learn from it, right? Yeah, there's truth in that. But it's your money. Yeah, it's it's your company. Yeah, and this risk, this risk. Now, I have great people, and Steve and Logan didn't just treat it like it was my money, they actually treated it like theirs. But we you have to decide how much are you willing to let go? It's like parenting. Yeah, how much freedom do you allow, right? You have to let them grow. You have to let them have some independence, but you're also watching. And at some point you might step in and say, Um, hey, we're gonna take away this moment of your independence because as a parent, I have a responsibility and I need to step in. And as a CEO and owner, I feel like it is my responsibility to make sure I don't let my team make a mistake.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think uh I think one thing Dave Ramsey had taught me and probably taught both of us is I think Dave's KBI is is uh he works on what's new and what's broken. And there's times what you're saying, uh things are broken down deep. Yes, and and you see something go, oh, that is that's not cool. I was in a meeting last week where uh I was uh there was some disagreement at uh uh at a pretty high level on on how we're gonna handle something that I I should have not been involved with. Sure. But it came up to to me because it was it was so far off. They were they were wrong. They were clearly wrong. You were gonna lose probably a hundred thousand dollars. And it was it's a bad decision was being made, and I and I I stopped it. Um and so it was that me being a control freak, or is that me saying, no, no, no, that's broken. Uh there's a there's a fire, I'm gonna put it out, I'm gonna help put it out here. So I think there's there's room for us as leaders to to drill down deep and stop things because again, it it is it is ultimately your baby. Yeah, it's our baby, it's the Lord's, but we're we're we're splitting it for him.
SPEAKER_00And I and apologize. Like when there's times I've overstepped, I've had to apologize. Yes, for sure. And be like, I'm sorry. Yeah, this is I'm sorry, I'm still learning how to let go. Yeah, and they know that. Um, so they've given me a lot of grace in that too. I also have to accept when I mess up. Um, and they also like, but we also do want your opinion, Patrick. It's not like we, you know, you're here, you have wisdom, you have value. I'm like, I just don't know when to speak up and when not to speak up.
SPEAKER_02Help me out.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I think it is about working together, and we're work, we have had to work through that. So it has not been easy. Yeah, I have made a lot of mistakes. I want to be clear about that. That is not that I have done this perfect.
SPEAKER_01I know you're I I know you're not saying that. It and and you know, we're not gonna be able to do that. I'm trying to everyone.
SPEAKER_00I'm trying to get better. Yeah, and my team is um, you know, you need your team, and I want to stress that. Yeah, you can't think that it's all on our shoulders. Now, as I say to people, CCB success isn't because of me. Yeah, it's because of all the employees that come to work every day that choose to work. And there are some people that you have to part ways with because they're not there to give it all they have, they're there for a paycheck. Sure. Um, and that is unfortunate. But you have a but you have a responsibility, and I have to tell myself too, because I like to try to convince people they can change. I can persuade you to really want to work hard for your job because this is a great place for you to grow in, right? Sometimes you just can't persuade people. You can try, but you can't force them to, and you have to be able to part ways um because you have a responsibility to the rest of the employees to not keep somebody in that spot who isn't gonna give what everyone else is. And that's difficult. I there's not one firing I've done that I've enjoyed, not one.
SPEAKER_01Oh, tell me about it, man. So those are some of the, I mean, they they're they're they're embraced in my in my in my memory. I mean, they're taking it.
SPEAKER_00We take it as personal. You're here, we're here to shepherd you. Yeah, you don't want to lose them.
SPEAKER_01You feel like you're a failure as well. I feel like I I probably I probably should have dealt with this sooner. I probably should have spoken up more. I probably shouldn't. What did I miss? Yeah, what did I miss in the interview? No kidding.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So so as we as we wrap up here, uh let the last the last um last eight, nine, tell 10, you know, 12 months, whatever that was. Um you've had some more shifts.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about that.
SPEAKER_00Uh as yeah, just when you think take us to the day, basically. I think it is that thing, right? When you think the the water's calm and there's nothing else underneath the surface. There's no sharks. We're good. Yeah, we're good, right? Um, so Logan came to me uh in the beginning of January 2025 and said to me, Hey man, there's a chance I might be moving to Nashville. And I was like, wait, say what?
SPEAKER_01And you just to clarify you're in Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_00We're in Wisconsin outside Milwaukee. Uh I'm like, I I I named you president in September of 2022. Now I'm like, wait a minute. I thought you were gonna take over a CCB and and run it. And he's like, Well, I still want to be president in Nashville. I'm like, Logan, the company's in Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's like, I know. He goes, I think I can do this job from Nashville. And I'm like, okay, I gotta process this, man. Like, I I I don't even know what to em and you know, and I was like, Why Nashville? And I knew he had uh church plant had been done down there, and uh a lot of his friends had gone down there, and um, but talk about uncharted waters. Wow, I've never had an employee say to me that they needed to move uh to an area because they needed to be around friends.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00I I was like, you're the president. My dad, you grew up in generation, you moved two cities for your job.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right. You know, you know, it takes precedent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sorry, friends, I'm yeah, I'm out. And uh, and I and I did. I felt I was like, what just happened? Like my plan just, you know, so Logan is was my best employee. And so I was like, Logan, I care about you like a brother. Uh you're my best employee. I don't want to lose you. Yeah, I don't want to compete against you. Because I'm like, what are you gonna do? He's like, I don't know yet. I'm like, well, what does that mean? You know, and so so I said, Well, I don't want to lose you. I want, let's try it. Let's try it. So he's like, Yeah, we're probably not gonna do it until probably maybe summer or whatever. So he did come to me later, told me it's gonna be July 2025. So we tried it. Uh, I had him go down to Nashville. Um, I said, Logan, I do need you to come back like every other week. And because I said, they need to see you. Yeah, I mean, it because now I'm in the office, even though I was I was in the office. I'm like, everyone looks to you, nobody looks at me. Yeah, um, and I was frustrated because I'm like, what did I do? I gave up all the power, yeah, and now nobody trusts me anymore, which that's what I was telling myself. It's not necessarily true, but it's what the lie that was saying that nobody trusts you, Patrick. Everyone trusts Logan. Yeah, Logan goes to Nashville, you know. So we tried it. Um, the the problem is that Logan has a young family. I think his oldest is probably 14 now, um, all the way down to three or four.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And um, you know, it was too much. It was too much for a young family. And so he came to me in the fall of 2025 saying, hey, I just gotta tell you, like, this isn't working for me. And meanwhile, I'm thinking this has been great. Yeah, he's coming back every other week, uh, he's engaged, he hasn't taken his foot off the gas, you know, he's Logan, he's consistent Logan, right? Um, but when he came to me, he's like, I can't keep doing this. I if we're gonna do this, I I can only travel like once like a qu month, I think maybe. So if if you want me to come to the office, that's fine, but then I won't go to a conference. If you want me to go to a conference, I can't go to the office. Yeah. And I'm like, I I can't do that. And there was other discussions of things he, you know, um, and that he um he wanted. And I just said, I I I can't do this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I there it's too much. I just can't do this. And um so we agreed at that point that um it probably was gonna be an interesting transition. Um, I didn't know how. Um at least we felt we felt like that because that would came in probably at the same time frame. He came to me in September and on that day he announced um to me that not only was he leaving giving his resignation, um, but the VP of sales and marketing was also leaving. Wow. And he's like, I didn't know Patrick. He goes, I know what you I know how you think was this planned. This was not planned. Uh Steve called me up to la uh I think last night, texted me, and said, I need to talk to you first thing tomorrow morning. He just told me, I told him, Well, I'm about to tell Patrick too. And I think Steve's thoughts were he's gonna lose it. Which I would actually I I didn't, I didn't, and only by God's grace, because on August 1st, God really put me on my knees surrendering that bitterness and that anger to the Lord. Wow, because just in time. Oh, exactly, just in time. Because if this had happened, if I had not surrendered that anger and that bitterness and this had happened, everything would have come undone. I guarantee you it would have. Because I already was hanging on by a thread. That would have been the final blow to put me down. I I don't even know at that time my marriage was under attack, my relationship with my kids were under attack, um, the business relationships with executives were under attack. Um, I would have probably hit the button of I'm out. Wow. Um uh in life. I just I I would have probably just let everything fall apart. Yeah. And uh and thankfully, by God's grace, that did not happen. So we worked through the transition.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh Logan was so gracious. He's like, I'll stay on for a year. Wow. I I because that's what you had asked me for, Patrick. Because I said, if you ever leave, I need a year to at least transition. Um because I didn't know what I was gonna do. So he's like, you can have me for a year if you want. Um, Steve wants to leave sooner, so we worked that out. Um, so yeah, so two guys left, two pillars. Logan 19 years, Steve, 13 years.
SPEAKER_01That's that's brutal, man.
SPEAKER_00And it's hit, it's hit our our culture. I mean, uh, two great pillars. However, um, and our company doesn't have change, but we are getting through it. Yeah, and through this, God brought another guy to me. I hit my knees for three weeks praying, God, who's out there? Yeah, because I have no idea what I'm gonna do. Um, and and I want to say one more thing. Logan could have played me so easily. Um, he could have easily said to me, Hey Patrick, there is a solution to this. Yeah, just sell me the company. Yeah, yeah. And and I probably would have done it.
SPEAKER_01He instead because he knew you were you would have to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, he knew I was in such a breaking point. He knew, he knew, wow, but instead, he left me a voicemail because I had said to him, like, Logan, do you just should I just give this to you? Like, I don't want to lose my parents' legacy. Yeah, I'd rather you have it because I you know I love you, you you care about the company, yeah. You know, and uh he left me a voicemail saying, Okay, I've prayed about this. This is not the time for you to give the company up. Wow. You have a lot of work to do, Patrick, but God is with you, and I can see that since you surrendered that you are in a spot to trust the Lord through this. And if you trust the Lord through it, you will get through it.
SPEAKER_01I had to give you some courage, man.
SPEAKER_00It was what gave me the reason to keep being here today. But he he didn't have to do that. But that's the kind of person he is, and I want to make sure we spotlight that. Yeah, um, he is such a genuine, God focused man of integrity. And so with that, he has been in his next week's his last week. Wow. Uh, and it's it's his birthday's on Monday. Um, my birthday is on Wednesday, um, and then uh he leaves on Friday.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00And it's it's a whirlwind. Um, it's it's it's hard to see him go. I'm also excited he's gonna be doing an EOS implementer job where he gets to work with businesses. Yeah, and he's gonna do fantastic at it. Um, so I just God is in control, but it has not been easy. But through this, as I said, I hit my knees, I prayed, and he brought another guy to me named John Greenwood, which I met at my daughter's college, which is a Christian college called Cedarville University, and I was on a business council. John was running it, and I just started talking to John. And the next thing I know, for three weeks, never dreamed. John has retired, had retired from banking after 30, 30 years in banking, uh, 39 years, I think, in banking.
SPEAKER_01What a huge asset for your business. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. I mean, again, talk about God is in control, but he called me up. He called me up. I had I had told him what was happening a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Isn't that just crazy though, how God does work all things for his good?
SPEAKER_00And and and John, he God was ordaining that the being moved all in order that I had no idea, even the timing of Logan leaving, because John's out of Columbus, Ohio.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If Logan had never moved to Nashville, I would have never considered John for the job in Columbus, Ohio.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00John's commuting every other week.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whether he's driving, driving, or flying, he's in a different stage of life. Yeah, his kids are older. Yeah. Yeah. He he he wants, he says this is fun. Yeah. This is his opportunity. He said, Patrick, my opportunity to come to CCB is to help protect the legacy of CCB. I'm like, God, you have given me somebody who is wiser, yeah, with more experience, and has a heart to push me to run forward instead of. Yeah, I'm so glad you did.
SPEAKER_01Uh wow.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot here in the story.
SPEAKER_01I was kidding earlier that I'm gonna maybe steal him from you because he's a really good guy. Yeah. So, John, if you're listening to this, man, uh, you know, there's there's there's openings in Indiana. Oh man, you're trying to make me cry, man. So it well, it just I think it's just it's crazy with everything you've been through. Um, and here we are, and some of this is super fresh. I mean, the I mean the president of your company uh is is leaving is leaving the week. Yeah, we're not even there yet. Yeah. Um that's the dynamic nature of business, man. It is, it's always um, it's always it's always this way. And I think we have moving. It's very moving. And and and you know, our team has changed and shifted and tweaked, and there's been hard things and hard conversations. Uh, I'm hoping to get for you to meet some of the team today as well uh when we go visit. But I yeah, exciting, exciting to see what the Lord is doing at CCB and and what he's doing in our lives. And and and so just to know that God is truly in control of what we're doing, and it's bigger than us. Uh John Maxwell always says, I want to do things that are so big that people know it's not me. Sure. And and I that's that's kind of become my my my business motto is like, Lord, I this is not my baby, it's yours. It is and whenever whenever I'm freaking out and I'm kneeling in prayer and I'm saying, Lord, I this is bigger than me. It it truly it I feel like I I can give that to him.
SPEAKER_00And you did that last August. Exactly. Reminders you gotta don't forget. Yeah, and it's easy, it's easy to move on. Yeah, it's like you know, you you're you're starving, you eat something, you're full, yeah, and then you know, next day you're like, I'm starving. You're like, did you not enjoy that last thing I just had? It's just how we're wired, right? We want the next thing. And so um, the other thing is learning to see it as a blessing. Like, I could easily have gone back to my old ways and be like, whoa to me, yeah, why is this happening again? You know, it's another thing on my life. And instead, I'm like, God's got me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it it's not comfortable all the time. I'll tell you that. I'm not gonna sit here and be like, oh, it's awesome, you know. It's not. Yeah, some days suck. I mean, it just reality in transition. John's coming in from the banking world and IT. It has been hard. Yeah, he has done well, but it has been hard. And we love to tease him because you know, technology is completely different from banking. Um, but he's doing it, yeah, right. And then there's people that are frustrated about the change and where's the company going? And and of course, then I put doubt of do they not trust me? Yeah, but I keep telling the company when I get in front of them, and I try to do that quarterly. Yeah, I don't believe the story is over. Yeah, I believe God has a plan here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now, I wish I could tell you where it's going. I have a plan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Don't be surprised if the pan plan pivots because that is what has happened in the history of our company. Yeah. But when you look at where we have been and where we are today, God has had his hands on this company.
SPEAKER_02Amen.
SPEAKER_00And he will continue to have his hands on this company if we choose to honor him in who we are and how we do our business. Yeah. Um, and that's that's and you know, and I don't expect everyone to believe that in my company, yeah, but I am going to lead that way and let people hear it.
SPEAKER_01We're called to do that, Patrick. I mean, I we we lead with our faith, and uh not everybody uh may may align with that, and that's okay. Uh, but man, we're talking about we're here on the forge podcast today. Uh, and you have certainly have been through the forge. I mean, you've been on the anvil, you've been, you've, um, you've you've been through it all. And and it's and it's what's what's crazy about your story is not just the business. It's it's you know, when when we can't even go home and things are great there with our kids or with our students. That's a whole nother thing is a whole other thing. And so your whole life feels like in in you're in turmoil. That's what happened with Job exactly, is that his whole thing. I wasn't advice.
SPEAKER_00I felt like I was getting squeezed by ball dance just ready to pop. And I did pop. Yeah. I did. Well, you're gonna be stronger because of this, because of all this.
SPEAKER_01And appreciate this. God's gonna keep building you, and and he's building all of us, right? Well, it's God's story.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we all just embrace it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. So it's such a good conversation today, Patrick. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me, right? It's awesome. Good to be here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yep.