The Challenge of Building a Business with Family

In Episode 2 of The Forge, the Miller brothers engage in an open discussion about the realities of running a family business. They share insights on the lessons learned during tough times and how to maintain healthy relationships.

The Forge With Ryan Miller is a podcast created to help develop company cultures that result in strong teams and create lasting business growth. Real conversations with business owners, manufacturers, and leaders about what it actually takes to build something. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI a leading manufacturer of lifting, storage, and safety systems based in Indiana.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

And comments are made about like about our business, like, man, I you know, like, because they all know we've we've we fight. Yeah, we do. And we also don't hold grudges for 40 years.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Yeah. I put in my truck last night to go home and I discovered that they are unloaded five truckloads, the first five truckloads of plate, on the completely opposite side of the building of the property of where it's supposed to go. You know, I will say this there is there is nobody that I trust more on on getting the business than I do you two, okay?

SPEAKER_05 0:29

Whatever, we we get into it a lot. Uh, you know, I love you guys and I and I love working with you guys. It also looks kind of depressing trying to trying to run something without backup, you know. Um if I'm on vacation and and something is actually burning down, uh, you know, I know that there's two guys back there that are gonna figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:05

Welcome to the forge. I'm your host, Ryan Miller here uh with my two guests here, my uh favorite brothers, my only brothers, uh my brother Darren and Kyle, who are not only my my brothers, they're also my business partners and uh and my co-owners in the business called PWI. And uh the business that our father started in 1979, almost 47 years ago. So uh excited to have you guys back with me this morning. And the the subject this morning is is uh epic. It's pretty heated. Uh we probably should have started with a word of prayer this morning, and and uh we could we could probably should have done that. But uh I'm I'm naming the the the uh the podcast this morning, the episode, uh family business without killing each other. And uh just want to clarify like this is not a this is not a past tense deal. This is not a this is not a hey, we got through this in the last five years. It's magical and perfect. No, this is a yesterday thing, it's a today thing, something we're wrestling with today. So we're gonna be pretty raw with each other, pretty honest with each other this morning. And uh and maybe we can actually work through some things just live here with our guests and kind of like do some um social work, counseling, uh, you know, you know, therapy, maybe? Who's the therapist? So I don't know who the therapist is because I'm certainly not, but uh just want to clarify who we are as co-owners and business partners. I'm I'm 45 years old. I'm the oldest brother of three. Uh we also have three sisters in our family, but there's uh I'm the oldest brother at age 45. Darren is at age 40, I believe. Um, and uh he's a co-owner in the business. And Kyle is the youngest, he's at 33, I believe. 34. You're 34 already? Yeah. All right, I'm off a little bit. So uh that's who we are in the business. And and it's kind of funny when I when I talk to people, I literally, I I I say this, I I I have conversations with people all the time, every single week. And I go, yes, I work with my two brothers, and they instantly stop. They say, Well, how does that go? And everybody's like, Well, you know what? That's what everyone asks me, and they because they they feel the the the tension of how that could be, because I think most people would say they can't work with their brothers, they can't work with their family, that would be a train wreck. Um, it'd be a nightmare. So um that's that's where we're going today. And just want to be clear here, again, this is this is something we're wrestling with today, every day, and we're wrestling with. So I hope that our conversation to our listeners today can help. And I do want to encourage our listeners as well. Uh, if you guys have ideas, uh drop some comments to us, uh, drop some notes to us, send us some emails, whatever you can do. Uh, if you can help us uh get better at this, we would love that. We need to grow in this area. And I'm gonna reference towards the end the uh podcast that I shot uh on Dave Ramsey's podcast with entree leadership. Uh John Felkins interviewed me uh back in January about this very thing. So I'll bring up some notes on that uh a little bit later. Braxton will pull those up for us. But spoiler alert uh on who we are as people, okay? Uh we we don't compliment each other. I've talked about that quite a bit with each other. So we use the disc assessment at PWI. Uh there's a lot of different ones you can use. We all we use the disc, and we also use Working Genius by Pat Lancioni. And um, so the the spoiler alert is that I I you know we are exactly the same.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

Personality assessments.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

Personality assessments are always the same. Thank you for clarifying that. Um so Darren, Kyle, and Ryan, we're all three screaming high, like 99, 99 DI, okay? So if that tells you how how um how how we are, uh if you know the disc profile, that tells you exactly who we are. We're very decisive, we're very interactive, we love talking, we interrupt each other all the time. And and working ingenious side of it, we're all three uh galvanizing inventors, GIs, okay. If you guys know the discs, uh the disc and working genius stuff, that should make a lot of sense to you. We were at a conference in Denver with Pat Lincioni uh just a year ago, uh actually a year ago in May, uh just exactly a year ago. So um, and um um Pat Lincioni opened up open mic there and said, Hey, uh, won't you guys tell us uh asked some questions or whatever? And so I went forward to the mic and said, Hey, uh, I worked with my two brothers, they're here with me today. Uh, we're both GIs. He said, Oh, crap. He said, Let me guess. He said, You're great, you're all three great salesmen, but your meetings suck. And I was like, exactly. Nailed it. So, so let's let's just start there. Um, how how do you guys feel about that? How do what what do you guys think? Uh how do you guys think it would go if we were if Kyle was the quiet, you know, CFO, you know, bookworm type that loved to work on Excel spreadsheets? Uh how how would that go? Kyle, start with you. How would that go differently in in the uh in the uh business?

SPEAKER_05 5:32

So uh I would I would think that uh I don't know. I I don't I really don't know because it's hard to say like how would how would a business work if you weren't the way you were, yeah, you know, the way you are. And so it's a that's a tough, I don't know, question. But I think there's probably aspects of it that would go better. But uh I've kind of also said kind of thrown this out there, which is maybe a kind of a main point of how us brothers relate to each other, uh, is that we do fight it out, and a lot of other family businesses don't. And that is, I think, what would happen if I was the silent, you know, whatever CFO in the back corner, no, no slack on Dean here or nothing like that. But Dean's our CFO, yeah. And anyway, but he but if I was if I was that type, that character, I feel like I would probably just kind of shut down and and let you know Ryan and Darren just kind of run with everything and not even put my piece, but I'd kind of hide a lot of this resentment and whatever, more than I already do. Sure, kind of you know, for too. See, there's the therapy coming out, yeah. Therapy coming out here. And all I'm trying to say is like I would probably kind of just bottle that up and then you know, all you know, just not talk, and then you know, our families would hang out less and and blah blah blah. Just seriously, that's kind of what it actually ends up.

SPEAKER_04 6:49

You're probably right, Darren. Talk about a little bit about that. How many how many friends and family members and buddies do you have in family businesses who don't talk?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

I'll just start with this that I haven't talked yet so far. It's just normally how our meetings go. I usually wait till I'm asked and then I then I then I voice my opinion. As literally never happened ever. It's one of my uh strong personal personality uh character traits that is really beneficial to a business is to just wait to speak and let others speak first. That's kind of what I exemplify about.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

Everybody knows you know about you at work, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Exactly. 100%. So what was your question again? Sorry, I'm just gonna go.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

We talked about we talked about by the way, everything that Darren just said is absolutely false. I mean, Kyle and I can can trump that. Uh anyhow, Darren talks more than anybody does, but that's all right. So here's here's uh here's what I asked Kyle. I said, I said, Kyle, just brought up the fact that if we weren't all high DIs and GIs, okay, then we probably wouldn't talk about the hard things as well as we do either, okay? And I know a lot of family business, I know you do as well. What's your thoughts on that? If we were, if if two of the three were not that type, uh would we talk about things as well as we do?

SPEAKER_02 7:58

I I I think the personalities are so complicated that I think I think it can it can work several different ways. I I think I think it can all work, but I mean I think I think honestly, it it more than personality is that if you were raised in a in a home where you didn't talk about hard things, and even with varied personalities. Sure. So in other words, you know, so some people can be uh some people can be can be uh vocal and and and everything, and some people be quiet, but but if but that's that's kind of separate. If you were raised in a home where where you just talk about the happy things and you don't talk about the hard things, that's a bigger deal than it is your personality. No, personality plays a a huge part of it. That's good, Darren. It's a huge part of it, but it's not everything. In other words, I I know business partners, uh I know family members or business partners that that do not talk. They do not talk about it, and there's tons of drama. There's tons of drama in the i i in in the whole thing, but it's just it's how it's been for years, it's the way it stays. Yeah. I think that it is it is not good. And so, and so then, and then and then and a lot and comments are made about like about our business, like man, I you know, like, because they all know we've we've we fight. Yeah, we do, and we also don't hold grudges for 40 years. Yeah. So I mean, so I mean, is it good? Is our way the best? I'm not saying it's the best. Is our way perfect? It's absolutely not. But but I also have seen both both ways, and and I I wouldn't necessarily want to be in the in the camp of let's not talk about and I've also seen some medium personalities, some medium levels of you know, business partners, brothers that that are I know are different opinions. And and and and and but they but they talk things out in in their own more chilled way. Yeah. I I think that's a great point.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

You know, uh I you know, I want to make it clear we we don't we don't always we don't always handle it well. We have failed. I I have I have personally failed. We've we've made we've made a lot of apologies to you that are we have raised our voices when we shouldn't have. We've yelled and screamed at times uh and when when we're alone, it's just not good. But I want to just say, I just want to compliment you guys today a little bit. 215 team members, BBI approximately today. Uh you know, I will say this there is there is nobody that I trust more on on getting the business than I do you two, okay? I I think I feel like you guys get what we do every day.

SPEAKER_05 10:22

You write that down, Braxton producer? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

You write that down real quick. Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. So um, so that is absolutely true. I I feel like I feel like, you know, out of all the team members that are there, I always say that tomorrow morning I show up, there might be there might not be anybody else there, but there'll be at least two of their cars in the parking lot when I get there. Uh and I think that's true. And so I want to I want to identify three things. I I say this a lot. People say, well, how does it work? And I and I say this, I say this quite a bit. I say there's three things um that we that we don't argue about, okay? Um there's three things that we're aligned on. I'm curious if you guys, I'm gonna say what I think and want you guys to comment on this. Or the the three big things I would say that we do not how's that? Raises. Yeah, raises, sure. Okay. Uh we don't argue, we don't kill each other on the big things. The $50 million decisions, the $5 million decisions, the the million dollar decisions, we don't argue at all. That's a that's a five-minute discussion for us. Most of the time, we don't care. Now we kill each other on the $5 details and the little things that don't matter, but on the big things, we don't argue about that. Number two, uh, we don't argue about the work ethic and passion. Okay. Number two, we I think we all three agree we're working our butts off. We're all we all care deeply about the business. Our ethics, uh, our ethics in the business and our passion um uh and our work ethic is is is is great. I think we all, I don't think we're I don't think you guys are talking behind my back or vice versa that we don't care enough. Kyle doesn't care enough. Yeah. Number three is I don't think we're arguing or we're disagreed on the seats on the bus that we're fulfilling. I don't think, I don't think Kyle's rooting for my job or Darren's rooting for Kyle's job, and secretly we're angry about that there. The seats on the bus were agreed, the work ethic were agreed, and the big things, big picture where we're going were agreed. Do you guys agree that agree with that? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 12:02

We'd also agree how how we're going to market is a huge deal as far as like the customers, the way the the customers base that we are are are I guess that you covered that with kind of things. I mean, I'm saying the direction as far as how we're going to market, you know, you know, there's there's some people that would that would, you know, different on what type of customers they're pursuing. Yeah. And we we're 100% aligned on that, aligned on that. So that's a huge deal. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Well, one thing that I think that I agree with everything I think you said, except maybe the first one where you said the big the big things, or like we argue about $50 decisions. We don't really argue about $50 decisions as much, I don't think. It's more about what when one of us is worried about the other partners not understanding what we understand about a certain subject. So we're worried, we're worried that we're worried that, you know, we were talking about inventory this morning. You know, we're worried that when if I what makes me frustrated with with Ryan is if I don't feel like he understands what the actually the actual problem is with inventory today. Sure. And so and so if he doesn't understand it, it's gonna make me mad because he doesn't gonna give the time to understand it. And I need to get all my words out, which might be two hours of explaining why we're actually at where we're at. Right. And then and then it then it kind of bubbles into something where it might not be a giant money decision uh necessarily. It could be or could not be. It's it's more tied to us making sure our our voice is heard in that the problems that we think that we are closest to and we have the best pulse on that other partners understand.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

I I agree with that because I I also think that like because I uh from Ryan isn't Ryan is uh the CEO and he's he's involved with a lot of things, but me and engineering clown sales, we're very, we're very we're in we're in it a lot more. So Ryan's not not Ryan's not removed from it, but he's less in it.

SPEAKER_04 13:57

Less day-to-day, less less daily stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Yeah. But so but it's not like Ryan's, you know, has a golf audio every other afternoon. It's it's not that's not what Ryan Well, yeah. Are you saying I can? No. All right, but what I'm what I'm saying is what but what my frustration comes from is often is is if you you delegate something to someone else, you say, hey, take care of this problem, and they go do it and they do they do what they're told the best that they can. And you think good, and then you're you're what's reported back to you is I took care of it. And and Bob did. Bob took care of it the best that he could. But then, but then but the problem, the problem is, the problem is you, your your lack of understanding of the severity of the problem or the or the complexity of the problem or how much it's costing us on a daily basis, which by the way is a hidden cost. It's a completely hidden cost of this lack of you know knowing uh how does this inventory issue affect affect the process, affect our how fast our jobs get done, affect our customer experience. You don't really totally totally know it because you but you're mine. You took care of it, you checked that box, and we're moving on. And that's and that's where I that's where I think that that's where my some of my frustration comes from is you don't quite understand always fully.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Yeah, so I I agree with you. I I I think that's that's fair. I I I I said that a bit a little different way. I was gonna say, okay, so the three things that we don't argue about, that's what we were talking about there. I I wrote down, or just thinking through this a little bit last night, preparing for for this morning, was that the number one thing that we do argue about, I think, is is how our team members and our teammates in the business are or are not taking care of the things that are in their care. That's what we I think we argue about probably the most. And saying that there's weaknesses over there, Ryan, you don't freaking see it. Ryan, you're blind to that. That's a problem. It's not it's and that's what I would say we probably argue about the most. I I called it a $50 thing. Um, yeah, we we sometimes we we we will make fun of a of a stupid design that Darren did, and we think it's lame, and there's there's a gusset that his team designed that's that should be more rounded and curved. Well, we'll kill each other on the bolts, the nuts, the details of that. That was kind of the $50 thing I was talking about. But but on the big picture, what we argue about probably the most is is from Kyle and Darren's perspective, um uh team members who are not pulling their load the way that they think they should. And so I I feel like, I guess what I always argue, I want your honest opinion on this. What I always argue to you guys is is that I don't think you have enough grace. I I feel like um, yes, you are absolutely right sometimes. And I say they're working on it, I assure you they get it, and it's not gonna change right now. It'll take a week, a month, six months, sometimes, whatever. And sometimes that's not good enough for you guys. Sometimes you're being unreasonable. Other times I feel like the guy does have it. And and so I always just tell you guys that you know, you know, there's a lot of grace dished out to you two and to me, all three of us, uh, every day by by the by other team members. Can you guys please dish out some grace to other people as well? So where's where's that line at?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

I where do I I've used that this analogy uh about you recently to someone else describing this situation and and specifically on the word grace, which is a great word. I told someone uh who some name should be uh named outside the company that I think Ryan has different grace buckets. He has grace buckets for for for I would say departments, people, whatever it is. And the problem is, you know, some of them grace buckets are you know, there's varying levels of grace in the bucket. Some of those are only about a quarter inch of grace, sure. Maybe an eighth inch on Fridays. Okay. Um, but then others, I feel like the the buckets just about spilling over. And so I'm just I'm just saying, but what what what I always and I my department is not perfect, and we and we've been we've been the the the low end uh our we use the the analogy of uh a stool three legged stool. A three-legged stool, which one's the shortest, the shortest leg? So which way is the stool leaning? Um and we just clarify that, Darren.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

We're the three-legged stool is representing uh sales, engineering, and operations. Right. Basically the three main categories selling it, designing it, and building it.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Right, building it and selling it, all that is part of operations. So in my design and design has been historically probably the the lowest, the the the worst leg um um for the most amount of time. For the most amount of time. Okay, right now it's it's probably not. No, right now it's not. Um, but but it's it's it's it's probably switched in the last six months as far as operations is now buried because sales was was the low one uh for probably last year and a half or so. So it'll it'll always it'll always evolve like that. It'll always teeter back and forth.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

And today it's clearly, clearly operations. We're in the middle of a of a firestorm of of sales and revenue that we didn't expect. It just it it Kyle's predicting it. It it Kyle often predicts stuff that doesn't always come true as well.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

Can you name the ones that didn't come true?

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Yeah, in the last three years. You said sales was the shortest leg for a year and a half. That's true. Oh, I'm still waiting. Uh yeah, well, yeah. The point the point is simply this is that is that it's clearly his operations now. And and I let me let me just I won't defend that, Darren. You're probably right. I I do feel you you you seriously could be right, but I do feel like after try number three or conversation number four, I I my grace goes down pretty low. It's it's it's it's about it's about hey, we've addressed this four times. I've sent emails this week that didn't have a lot of grace because I've I've addressed this before. I've we've talked about this before. Why is this not fixed? Well, it's and so that's it's like you know, my grace runs pretty thin.

SPEAKER_05 19:26

I I think that there's a there's a thing that we need to do more is is is trust but verify type thing. And and you know, there's no you you say all the time you're chief repeating officer, you re you know, repeat things, right? And that I agree with that. I think that it applies like a lot even to direct reports to key people around the company is hey, I ask you to do this thing in this way, either explain to me why you can't do it that way, I told you, or do it that way. And I'm gonna check in in three months, I'm gonna set a reminder on my phone and I'm gonna I'm gonna check in to see if you're doing it that way. Uh, and because I think a lot of times, and it's and it's not we got excellent employees at PDBI, I would put them up above any other company in the world. Uh it it we have seriously superstar employees, but I I do I do sometimes think that some people just because of default, the easiest, the path of least r least resistance, uh they'll just kind of go down this uh this trail of well, I I was kind of told to do it this way, but I'll just kind of do it the easy way. And that that's that's a thing I think it's a pain point where Darren and I uh you're you're you have you have your fingers in all the uh all the different departments and we are in two different departments. Sure. And and when there's other departments that we feel like and and often we know it's on us, our departments. That that happens literally every day. Yeah. Uh when we know we've made mistakes and issues and that kind of thing. But when we see when we see the other departments make mistakes, it can kind of be this awkward little dance dance between our roles as as uh uh executives and our roles as partners. It's a really weird kind of delicate balance that we that we have to put a put a uh you know a department leader hat on, yeah. And then, oh shoot, I feel like this side of the company is losing a lot of money or costing whatever. Take that hat off, put the partner hat on, and tell Ryan, Ryan, this is a big issue, go. Yeah, that that can be a struggle for that.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

And that and as the as the president CEO, that is a challenge for me. It's probably my biggest, my biggest stress point. I mean, I trust again, I let's go back to what I said. I trust you guys more than anybody else in the company that you get it and you understand what it takes to get the job done, clearly. I also cringe at the drama that's created sometimes when you guys pull those, pull the the the VP of sales, VVO engineering hat off, put the owner hat on for a minute, and you say, Hey Ryan, this is a problem. I need you to reach into the business and solve this. And I say, I am solving it. We're working on it. Uh that's probably what causes a lot of drama between us brothers.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

But what I what I what I what I what I always say is like like when you when you when you go through the drive thru, when you go through the drive through uh maybe use an hour before, but when you go through the drive thru and you order you order your your your culver's uh meal and and you and you for for your whole family let's say okay and then they and you ordered clearly ordered three cheeseburgers it was on the screen and you pulled up then you paid then you waited for 14 minutes to get your food after that and and so you're really hungry kids are screaming and you ordered three you paid for three and by the way that cheeseburger cost you know $5.99 yeah okay and you pull out and you leave you're on the highway and they only put two in yeah okay and you're frustrated your wife the kids hungry down where whatever and you're frustrated because that mistake was made and what what I'm saying is like like you you you can't just you can't the customer experience can't just be you can't the great the customers don't have grace for you their their grace their grace pocket may be very shallow it'll only it only have one time and so I mean and there's certain jobs there's certain jobs that the culverse bad example uh there's certain jobs that are way more important when at a Ford Motor Company when they're building your car and they mill and they miss two lug nuts because hey he tried the guy was new he tried I don't care how hard he tried right it doesn't matter there's certain and there's a lot of things when we're building cranes we're building cranes and and that one weld was bad but you know what the the new guy he he he was trying to weld right I don't care how he's trying I don't think you're not qualified and it wasn't done properly and so and and and so those are kind of easy things missing bolts bad welds whatever getting having that that's kind of one of the things but the problem is when there's when there's operational things when there's operational things things that are being dropped yesterday was a meeting with and there's a new guy in in our components team and in engineering he he he caught a he he he said look there's this one thing I'm not sure if if if purchasing is taking care of it or if I'm doing it what we where we at and he he did not let this one thing go until he knew that it was checked off yeah that's he owned it he would and and he even owned a past he owned a past what his responsibility was to make sure that the customer was gonna get his product on time that is ownership that and and by the way this kid's been here for a year yeah and and and and there's guys that have been here for for eight years that would say well hey my problem yeah well and I don't think that's the typical guy I think most guys care most most of our people have ownership so here's let's let's let's talk about let's talk about what's what's fresh right this this is yesterday this is last night at five o'clock this is like literally 12 14 hours ago okay and and this is not trashing anybody but I was frustrated yesterday so you want you wonder what how much does how much does Ryan the president CEO get involved in the weeds of the business let's talk about that a minute okay I I always feel like I work on what's new and what's broken.

SPEAKER_04 24:34

So I I work on the things that are new where we're going where we're heading things we've never done before and what's broken processes in the company uh mandated by Kyle and Darren no but just things that that I see that are that that are that are broken in the company that I'm working on. So we are we are in a place in the business that we have never been at before we have never ordered millions of pounds of plate before in our life we've never done that before we're currently ordering about two million pounds of plate right now purchasing is and we we we rush ordered a a used plasma table an 8x20 plasma table to get this work done just so our listeners understand what we're dealing with here. We're dealing with millions of pounds arriving. Well I talked with the ops guy uh with my BP of ops Matt great guy and we we had agreed on where to store the plate plate's coming in it's a big deal we don't even have how do you store literally 50 truckloads of plate on our property there's not really room we're gonna store it outside we ordered new equipment to handle all this it's there's a lot going on I hop on my truck in last I hop in my truck last night to go home and I discovered that they unloaded five truckloads the first five truckloads of plate on the completely opposite side of the building of the property of where it's supposed to go meaning we're gonna have to transport it all the way around all the way around the other property and move it probably twice to get it over there to handle it and move it into the building to where it gets cut. I was very frustrated I was very frustrated because in that case I didn't have a lot of grace and there's a message I sent out last night there was not much grace there because I had made it very very clear what we we had agreed we had a plan and some of the plan didn't go down to the team and that is that is frustrating to me. So that's where my grace bucket is a bit low because because there is no excuse. There's times when let's let's talk this year there's when do we mandate and I used the word mandate last night there's times where we're gonna mandate I don't really care what the people working for my VP of ops think about the idea we'd agree that's what we're gonna do. I want their input but it's the right way to do it.

SPEAKER_05 26:18

It goes in this side of the building it's going there's only one door that this plate will fit in through we all know that um that that that can I pause you yeah at that point you know there's only two options I believe if if something comes from the CEO do this it's two options there's there's I do that thing or I present a very very clear reason why I can't do that thing. Yeah and and and so they could have done that. They could have said whoa there's a reason we're doing this here and this is why yeah um and and usually you'd be fine with hearing that like like like I mean there's no hearing and maybe even changing your mind you know but I love my mind change I I'm I'm I'm I'm often wrong but when it just gets done the opposite way because nobody was sticking through it all.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

And so what what what I what I what I think happened is normally normally from for you know it's not my department but normally that's where big play big plate gets unloaded and that's where it happens. So so agreed but but we we've been very clear it's very very special times and and there's a whole area I'm not I'm not saying that that that they didn't you know not do what you said.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

I'm just saying that the the normal procedure was followed and that's where it goes and and and so and so that that that's that's the would you guys agree though I mean here's here's what I want to say I I want to say this humbly but I'm also I'm also 12 years older than Kyle is and I'm five years older or six years older than Darren is whatever that is um I'm not the leader today that I was when I was 33 either. I I know that I've grown I've I've grown in some grace in in in some things so I want to make sure that I pass on grace to you guys okay uh I I I have matured a bit I think I have uh and I know that I was not a very good leader in my 30s I was I was a terrible leader I was a boss I was not a leader I was a manager I was very arrogant um and and I knew how to all the answers and so I I just uh I want to pass that on to you guys and I'm asking you guys to pass it on to the other team members as well and dish that out as well. Remember you guys have been here longer than than most of the other 215 team members.

SPEAKER_05 28:13

Is that is that fair or is there comments you guys have on that I I would say it's fair to a degree I think that most of of our frustrations uh with you know that involve Ryan okay are mo mostly centered around mostly centered around we see a problem it needs to be fixed and we don't feel like you're doing an adequate job fixing it. That just that that and to be clear my team members are not therefore you're calling me doing it maybe maybe it's maybe it's outdated instructions you gave to them or whatever it is. It could just be a a myriad of things that came up okay but also we we know that we we kind of want to stay in our own in our own departments until we see an issue and that that that issue is like glaring it's like a bright red flashing right light because we can't even think about our department until we that other thing is fixed. It's a little bit of the you know a beam in your own eye kind of thing. But all I'm trying to say all I'm trying to say is that that is that is probably the hardest part is is not kind of you know walking out there and doing it ourselves. Because because because you go you want to switch that owner hat as fast as you can you want to walk out there and you fix that thing. I get guys walking to my office daily that look at me and say why don't you go fix this thing you know it's a serious problem and and and I and I say I know it's it's my company it's my it's God's company but it's it's my company partially um and and I am choosing to let that five ten thousand dollars just go burn because I'm trying to do things the right way and I know it sounds kind of like bureaucratic and whatever is sometimes you just get to that point. You get to that point where you say I can't fix that problem. It's extremely difficult and it's also difficult for guys that walk into your office and and want and want that resolution is there just like you do.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Sure but but I'm gonna say this here too what what's what's frustrating to me often is that you were you were you were last night frustrated because steel plate got unloaded in the wrong location okay well at least the steel plate got unloaded okay it's here and unloaded sure there is times where there's bigger okay and and then the cost I mean let's just dive into that the cost of moving that steel plate is not huge. It's not a huge cost it's a it's it's it's it's not it's not it's it's it's time with a forklift yay okay so so it's a day of moving total two days I don't care whatever it is okay that's actually a small dollar amount and it's not gonna that no one's gonna there are times when there's intangible things that are not being done okay sure that you don't see that have a much bigger much bigger impact on the customer experience and impact on the bottom line like like like like at least 10 if not 20 X. But the but the the the person the the the the job the job the job uh this person was in charge of X okay and it's it's it's a digital thing it's a it's a thing that was supposed to happen. Sure it didn't happen in the right time or didn't happen at all. And so the result is physical steel is nowhere. But the but his task was actually a high dollar amount of thing that should have happened but but then I feel like Ryan's gracebook comes in and says hey he tried or hey well hey you know I mean I mean you know what we'll figure it out we'll figure it out because you didn't steal any you didn't see any steel pal anywhere you think the problem isn't you it's not as easy to see. I I guarantee you steel being in the wrong place is a much smaller deal than than a lot of the intangible things that are not being done or being done in the wrong time or in the wrong in the wrong steps. And those are bigger implications than customer experience.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

I completely agree with you I I I think I think what I try to do I I don't think there's ever a time you guys bring up problems to me that I like laugh and say it's not a big deal. I I I really really maybe I am too bureaucratical but I do believe in the owner hat. I believe in us having the owner's hats on this morning. We have owner's hats on we're we're we're we're owners and we're stewards of PWI what God has entrusted us to operate and run. When we walk back into our office in an hour from now we are wearing the CEO and president's hat, the VP of engineering's hat and um VP of sales hat. And that really it really needs to be that way because there's there is five other people on our team that that are making the business run every day. And so I I want to make sure that we honor those those roles and the hierarchy because they work for me they don't work for you. And so there's just there's just this thing where when when when you guys don't let's just make this clear when you guys don't honor the right hat it caused a lot of other frustration among our team a lot. And so when when when the owner puts his hat on all of a sudden at three at three o'clock in the afternoon and goes and deals with the problem directly and bypasses the system which you guys don't do a ton of I'm saying but when you do that you know listeners when you do that it doesn't work it's a train wreck forever. You cannot you cannot come back from that. In other words you you have to do the things in the right order and and through the right channels or it will not work your people will leave your people will quit and if you've entrusted the chief marketing officers who's in charge of this brand's in charge of this podcast this is all underneath his department. This is his brainchild right uh I don't go make changes about the podcast uh you know two levels down for Brandon and say we're gonna do this we're gonna do this here no Brandon's very very involved in how this whole thing looks and feels and all that so we'll make sure and and and Kyle doesn't go bypass uh you know the same way Kyle is going to say hey I want Ryan I want the podcast to look like this next week and we're gonna change the subject title it doesn't happen. We're very very clear on the roles in the business and that's probably why I push back sometimes and say have some grace I'll go talk to him and and let's when I say grace I'm I I I don't mean excuses for for for for incompetency. That's that's that's I'm never cool with that I I I get trust me my blood boils with that as well it's it's more like hey it really really sucks we all make mistakes how can I help you through this how can I help you fix this today because it matters it matters to me. And I I I think Darren Kyler right there's things that I don't see as the visionary of the business um I don't see the day-to-day stuff as much as what they do and and and I want to hear that I I think I think that there like the one thing we didn't talk about yet is the the whole customer aspect of it.

SPEAKER_05 34:28

Sure. So like like one thing I've struggled with in a big way family if you want to talk about family business struggles this is it's very very hard to get to get the same amount of and I think uh Alex Ramosy talks about this is don't even try uh to get the same amount of buy-in from from from you know your employees as you do because you should have more I agree with that 100% I don't think it's even fair to ask of that but we there are some key people around the company that have an extreme customer focused view. We obviously do. We're very because we know that's where business comes from and and and there's quite a few others there's a there are quite a few others that do. And then but the what is what is difficult is I've realized as a company grows larger there are a lot of people that I'll just I'll just throw people out there not not as a call out to them at all but like like people like facilities for instance uh or uh HR or um uh I'm trying to think of like uh people that are only doing internal things uh IT okay they're just attached to the customer they are never doing anything with an outside customer ever okay and so when they when they talk about things sometimes they can get so and it's it's the same thing in your personal life it's the same thing in your in your church life uh that if you if a church focuses in too much on itself it'll it'll fall apart if you focus in too much of your own life and don't focus on others and outward uh you're going to you're gonna fall apart a company can do the same thing I think that I think that whenever this discussions and policies and changes are made in a company it has to always be thought about the customer first even when it's an internal item when when when ph is a great guy 25 year guy 23 25 years somewhere in there pretty close to the um guy in the company who's head of facilities even when he's building the facilities he should be thinking well how's it going to look when customers walk into here what are they gonna think uh where are they gonna park is there science for one parking uh plant tour because it's not about he yeah his main customer is the is the different people working around PDBI but really if we and that that's been hard sometimes the bigger company gets there's so many people that are only focused internally that it really it it it really does pain point and especially gets in sales uh I'll just fight for my sales guys here a little bit that that they're every day they're talking to guy to customers that are that are wanting a good product and good service from them. And when they see the rest of the company kind of like it's okay you know we'll we'll get we'll take care of it you know that that's that's three days late that's two weeks late it's okay you know that paint job doesn't look that bad and it's fine it really really burns them because they they talk to this customer for two hours. Yes. And so I just want to like I that's one thing I want to push very very very hard and and it's easy as owners and partners to think that way. It is difficult to get that out to everybody in the company and say when a customer walks through you should be like ah you know kind of like like just like you know like making sure they feel so and I think a lot of our guys I think most of our guys do excellent jobs oh I think they do.

SPEAKER_04 37:21

But yeah on that note I just want to add or one thing a couple of things we've done just uh for our listeners to to understand what we do we make a really big deal about the customers we believe in Jeff's Bezos' line of obsessing over our customers not our competitors we don't even know who our competitors are they can go do their thing there's enough work for everybody go around we're okay but we're gonna focus on our customers who are calling every day right and so on that note when when when our customers come in the lobby we have a we have the their logo of their business we have a big welcome screen there for them and I can't tell you how many times like it blows their mind. And the other thing we're doing now is that we're just starting this and and and Ken overmeyer killed it uh uh like in a good way uh like a couple weeks ago I was I was giving a tour to a customer uh I'm not sure which one it was somebody maybe from Texas somewhere uh was in to give to give a tour and uh and or in for a tour and I I I helped with part of the tour. I'm walking through the plant and one of the one thing we had just mandated kind of is we're gonna put out we're gonna post to the entire company who's here to visit today, who they are, what their names are. And Ken walked right up to him out in plant four, walked right up to him and said, hey John how you doing what good to see you. I'm Ken I'm the I'm the director of it was freaking the guy was just blown away. And like he's he had we had photos going out so I want to I want to um I want to keep doing that because I could tell I could I could tell it it would made an impression on the customer. The customer was very impressed because he knew that we were anticipating his visit and really really good to feel that.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

And by the way that's not our original that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 38:45

That's not original with us we have experienced that with with with one of our customers actually um and um and and that that experience um that really that all started down with six access yeah six access in South Carolina um when um and most of the people that that we dealt with there now are not there anymore but but that company has a great great customer experience yeah they do and and they're a customer of ours but but even as a vendor we went there and we well I think we treat our vendors the same way darren I think when vendors coming in I'm just saying I'm just saying I'm giving a shout out to them because Six Access they showed us when you when you know that when the CEO met us at the door and and shook our hand and knew our names and and without asking the name of which person was which yeah without asking he had spent more than two minutes you know preparing you know looking at an email he he he was ready for us it it made a amazing it was an amazing um feeling very key concept in uh the book unreasonable hospitality as well um that they talk about for a while and they had whole if our listeners haven't read that book we just went through that book study just in the last quarter uh Will Godera uh reasonable hospitality uh yeah bright yellow book you gotta read it uh and it it it's about uh uh 11 uh park eleven medicine park 11 medicine park is the is the is the like number one restaurant in the world at least it held that title for a while unbelievable what what will Godera built in that restaurant and it just teaches it taught our team how to how to perform or or just live out unreasonable hospitality going the extra mile one thing that's I think we struggle with I struggle with I think we all do is that we take for granted our our our everyday customers and big customers I mean consistent every customer is important big and small I'm talking about customers that are buying things for sure every month if not every every week and we we just see those purchase orders come in and and and oh it's another order for ABC company and that's that's bad that's bad but but but we get all excited about the new guy that came and you know the new company that came and and they and and they bought a a hundred thousand dollar crane and that's I love that but it's easy to get excited about them but what it's ABC company that's been doing for business 20 years we're like oh man they want oh shoot well just you know horrible but but just so you know yesterday yesterday I signed I don't know 50 70 cards handwritten cards from Ryan the CEO uh with with far second mile gifts so so basically most of our customers get a a a gift box from me uh after the order so that's old and new that's that's that's a lot of existing customers from that for that are local regional customers for that we've been doing work for for a decade so and it's the new one so they're getting they're getting the letter from Ryan saying hey it's hard we love you guys you guys rock we couldn't do this without you we appreciate you here's a little gift to make your day and and we we have man we have some really cool stuff in that and just for our listeners to understand what we're doing what we're doing there it's a it's a it's a lifting sling that we're getting there and I'm kind of cliche with with hey we this hope this letter this card today lifts your spirits okay because we're in the lifting business right and uh and then we have um from from our from our bistro uh bistro um uh cafeteria makes these roasted pecans which are just fantastic they're insane and then we also have a have uh our sister and brother-in-law uh roast coffee so they made a special blend called uh it's called the second mile blend uh from PBY and and Main Street Roasters it's part of our uh shout out to Main Street Roasters which is my sister Deborah and her husband Marcus and family uh make the best coffee in the world and uh and we have to say that by the way yeah we have to it honestly though it's all I drink can they sponsor the show here they they we should we should get them they they after today they have to sponsor now so I'll get five dollars uh to sponsor this thing so I I think going back to you know family business a little bit more and and and getting along as partners and stuff I think the one thing that's helped a little bit and I'm not saying this is because I because I kind of proposed it but we talked about these weekly partner or some monthly partner meetings and uh we haven't been doing them perfectly but but for the most part we have been and and uh these monthly partners meetings where we can discuss things as partners and then the general direction of where things are going feel aligned between the partners and then we go then Ryan can kind of present that to the executive team uh and we can run with which we are also a part of then the executive team sure um uh that we can run with that and it's not like all decisions are made at all it's just the general the general direction sure is is aligned on and uh because usually once we get into executive meetings the way for Darren Darren and I to just steamroll a meeting and take over the meeting is when we don't we aren't even aligned on the general direction.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

Yeah and it should have been decided beforehand that you know at least I hate the word discuss at least discussed with us to make sure we're aligned before I bring up before I set the agenda for next week's meeting. That's that's kind of what we've agreed on. Is that the partners' meetings monthly is it we're making sure that we are aligned on the big picture we know where we're going and when I present stuff in there uh that you guys aren't freaking out saying what Ryan's proposing two million dollars that we've even discussed yet that that's a little bit of a what the heck moment for you guys.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

It's like you know and and you uh two things um kind of two subjects here but like the whole whole the whole spending thing I remember one year this is in 2000 I think it was 2018 or something 2019 maybe I forget what year exactly it was but we were arguing um we were we had a the one of our our top arguing moments i was i don't even know what you're talking about it was it was a really really really too many to count it was it was really really really um uh he did he didn't I mean I don't remember talking I just remember listening to you guys fight oh sure it was uh it was really tough anyhow but it was it was a it was about our office expansion of how we should do it we needed more office space and it was a it was between sp spending a hundred thousand dollars or three hundred thousand dollars um it was kind of the the the the the fight like is it worth it do we need this much and then but like we were arguing hey yeah we need to because we need to hire this and then or we're gonna have them filled up and and all this stuff we're we we and we we decided to go ahead with it but it was a split decision however that works in the three in the three man three-way thing but that same year that same year we spent one million other dollars in trailers and trucks certain equipment and and none of us so but the the point is the point is that my my point is is that we just we're we were we were we major on the minors sometimes we major on the minors sometimes I mean I'm not saying that money doesn't matter and budgets don't matter they obviously do and we don't have another an ever ending you know supply of money that's not where the point is I'm just saying that we we uh we we fought on this one thing sure then we spent triple that on other other budget budget line items and and it didn't didn't really matter you know so uh I want to just we we gotta start uh reeling this in a bit here and just remember this is about not killing each other in family business how to do family business well and we we certainly don't have it all figured out we certainly don't have all the answers uh but I want to go back to January when when I did the uh the podcast with John Felkins at at uh at Dave Ramsey's uh entree leadership and the three things that he left me with that I always want to read to you guys and and I and I I do mean this the three challenges that John gave me that day were were this he john felt like I could do a better job on telling Darren and Kyle that I value you um I care about you I care about your families and I want I want all this I want all I want you guys to win and I want to do this all well.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

And I really do mean that to you guys.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

I I I want to tell you guys that um and uh I want to keep telling you guys that regularly and so I do care about you and I value you guys and I um I thanks on the good days the good days I love working with you guys I trust you I trust you more than anybody else in the business I really do uh on the bad days when you're whining about things like you know you do sometimes and like I do sometimes it's hard it's hard it really is hard sometimes right uh number two is John encouraged me to always take a deep breath before responding in a meeting and I know that I can do better at that I know that I need to do better at that and letting you guys talk letting you get out your thing uh letting you vent a bit that's okay and when you're done I can take them take some time to respond one of my goals is to even defer till till tomorrow if I need to uh and and and I want to do better at that uh number three is John said make sure that I truly actually said not not fake it that I truly value and appreciate your your your perspectives your um your your viewpoints your perspectives regardless whether I agree or not and I I want to I I want to do better at valuing your opinions okay and and uh last night we were talking uh we often do uh texting back and forth voicemail voice texting back and forth about some things in the business uh again the it the phone kind of never goes off right so but I but I and we were and I think you guys had some great points I actually agree with everything you guys were saying I think I'm 100% agree with what you're saying in some direction that we need to we need to to to tweak on a bit uh in the in these heated times that we're in and that came from and that came from last night that that came so one of our one of the managers uh uh one of our managers on our team on my team vo he he cares very passionately about PBI um and sure and and he he said he he went off to me yesterday he's like I I I about this about this certain issue about inventory we we gotta look at this we we we as we redo this it's gotta include this and we if not if it doesn't if it if this new plan doesn't include the whole pie then it's not gonna work and it's not gonna function he kind of just vented yeah but but because of his because he cares that much about about the company it it mattered yeah and so I so I emailed and voice X yeah and say hey guys we we should it might be a a step back and a and a side step over to to a change of direction how are you going to look at it and and and that that came from someone just voicing their opinions.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Yeah it and just so no many knows we we always welcome that I I we we beg our team to think like owners and to and and and and come up with genius ideas every single day in their departments and things they see that aren't right. Speak up speak up absolutely um just just just so our listeners understand where we're at like I think it's good to understand where we're at today. And like I think if I think guys if we were not growing at the rate that we are growing at an average of 20 to 25% a year whatever that is um it's it's a lot. I think if we were coasting right now I was talking to somebody last week I did an interview with somebody last week and and I was telling uh Judy that I said I said if we were coasting and we were not growing it'd be pretty easy. Like like we could literally just chill and coast and all these processes and procedures and policies we're having problems with and and how we're doing things uh it'd be a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

But we are growing at a really very very very rapid rate uh we're hiring very very fast uh we're growing in our little world we're growing we're growing faster than we've ever fathomed right so that means that we're hiring people at a fast rate we're adding a new ERP this year in the midst of all this growth and it's it's brutal it's really really hard it causes for a lot of tension a lot of a lot of things that that normally would not be there if you're not growing growth growth creates opportunity for for disasters that we're facing right now it really does it does you we say we're growing fast and yes yes sure we are but when you look at when you look at other companies yeah it's absolutely a joke and I'm not saying I'm not I'm and my goal my goal every day is not to wake up and just uh grow the company more and that's all I care about and I don't care about my family and the kids I'm not saying that at all I'm just saying that like yes yes we're we're we're growing but there's you there's a tremendous amount of companies that have grown like way way way way way faster and doing complex things yeah not just well you know you know not not just uh you know uh you know Facebook who who didn't really build any any hardware right until glasses or whatever sure uh but there's the there's other companies that have hardware and software yeah and and real life things I think you're right I I do think in the small business world the world that we're in that what our listeners are in every day we're in the trades we're doing this here maintaining a growth for probably 13 14 years here that we've averaged at least let's just say a decade that we've averaged about 20.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

And that's you years of 20 is one thing but we there's years we've grown over 30 and then down to 15 but the average is about 20 and and to maintain that year over year over year you know in our world in the trades it's I think it's hard. It's hard it's hard and 20% just gets bigger obviously oh yeah so so so yes it's yeah you know when you're when you're at two million 20% is no big deal when you're at 50 or 100 it's a lot bigger deal right I was talking to you so uh are you almost done here or not? Well yeah I want to I want to just I want to take a I want to have a question for you guys here as as we as we wrap here um so our listeners are in family businesses a lot of them are i i i think i think i think what we're talking about is resonating with with with people and and it's everybody i talk to is in the same deal and again most people can't believe that we work together every day and we don't kill each other right but for those struggling in their family business today like I want I want one one key takeaway from both of you I'll start with Darren what what what do you think um what what would you say to the to the to the to the young plumber uh the guy who's starting a construction business with his with his brother or brother-in-law the guy who's uh you know has an accounting firm with his family and they're and they're and they're serving the trades and they're and they're they're doing this kind of work what how what would you say uh to them that you've learned and that we've grown from in in building this family business being able to take it from our father to second generation today on passing on to our children hopefully third generation someday what would you say to those families businesses?

SPEAKER_02 52:09

I was just in Florida over the weekend um for a couple days with my family and I was eating ice cream in and in Florida and and two guys I knew showed up and and and one from South Carolina and one from and one from Arkansas and well I knew I knew Ken from South Carolina and his son-in-law um Ryan um is from um Arkansas and so Ken happens to be a business coach okay uh that's his job but so his son and and and son-in-law have had started bought a business acquired a business and have have doubled its sales in the last couple years wow good for them and everything and um and I want we say too much but but but but the point is um the uh the the Ryan was saying this this this Ryan guy was saying that he he's not sure he you know what he wants to do in the future and he's like basically like the the business got streamlined is streamlined and he's not sure if he he kind of likes to solve problems and and he said he said I want to I want to I want to I want to fix things I said then grow your business you'll have plenty to fix. Yeah if you if you happen to like the challenge of solving and streamlining things and you a a a business that's just cruising along yeah there's not that's great. If you try to grow 15 20% a year you'll have plenty of things you'll have plenty of systems to build you'll have plenty of things to do.

SPEAKER_05 53:26

So so if you're if you find yourself if you find yourself you know if you like if type if your type of personality that you like a challenge then then then grow a business start a business yeah and and grow it yeah and grow it if you if you want to maintain and another thing I just had a conversation I had just recently was um two two brothers that are actually starting their own business separately and I just told them I I challenged both of them this is in the last week I said why don't you guys draw uh join forces there is so much synergy in the times uh and they have to have different personalities yeah I said and I said right but there's so like there's so much you guys could do you could do so much together than you can separate and and so it is worth it I would not yeah I I think it's worth it and and your question At the end of the day is it worth it is is it worth it to be in business together absolutely yeah I would also say too like even though I you know hash it out my brothers on a day daily basis uh you know whatever we we get into it a lot uh you know I love you guys and I and I love working with you guys it also looks kind of depressing trying to trying to run something without backup you know um if I'm on vacation and and something is actually burning down uh you know I know there's two guys back there they're gonna figure it out um at least right because it the buck does stop eventually with an owner like it you you know you know you can say everything you want about key employees and all that kind of stuff and it is true we have so many key employees it's it's crazy because it care a ton but but it is hard it it in the end you know if if you're getting sued or something like that you're not getting sued if you're an employee yeah you're fine um but it's not it's you know there's some things that don't ever quite touch them. It doesn't there's another thing I think that people that aren't business owners don't totally understand sometimes is just the pressure of keeping a good reputation in the community and or in your business and and keeping employees happy. And so you have this like where you whereas if you're an employee somewhere you don't really care if that much if the other employees there love their job. Because it's like it's like you know it's okay it's good and yeah I want them to like a job that they work with me and whatever but it if you it's kind of a personal reputation uh if if it reflects on on on owners as do the comp do people like working here? Is this a fun place to work?

SPEAKER_02 55:41

Is this a is it a good place to work are they getting paid well all those things are important to to owners more so because there's people at church there's brother in laws there's there's cousins that their their brother works there and they and then he there's all it it's not just it it is part of who you are and and it is not our identity but it is associated with our identity I I it it does I I feel like we have been honored or or blessed I am honored and that we are and we are very blessed to have a good reputation in our community.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

I think that we do I uh just yesterday I I called a guy randomly for the most part it's not perfect oh it's not perfect I'm saying I I'm saying like I but I think it started I'm giving you some honor to our dad there. I mean our dad had a great reputation I would definitely give honor to our dad there how's that you said some I would say it's more started but yeah actually I still say we're probably running on the fuel that he that he loses for sure right for sure I'm giving him credit but we we've also had to keep it going for a decade and and right and quadruple the business in all of that. So we've we've we've had a lot of influence ourselves as well and a lot of relationships that we've had to maintain as well. I called a guy yesterday randomly random guy it was actually a personal phone call and I uh about moving some trees literally and I I called this guy and he goes hey he said I I know you he goes in fact oh man I'd love to watch you guys it's just been incredible to watch you guys I was eating at Lone Star Steakhouse the other night and I ran to one of your employees and I was just we were just talking about how amazing you know he loves his job working there and I was taking talking about how amazing it is he said are they is it really going that well I said yeah it's freaking awesome we're doing it's do good I love my job just good to hear that yeah and I hear that I probably hear that every week and and uh again not everybody understands what all goes on in the business right and and when you're in the business there is there is drama every day at PBUI where we're we're wrestling we're on a crusade right which means we're at war sometimes to get this all done and and get this all built on time for our customers and all that.

SPEAKER_05 57:29

But Kyle you didn't really answer my question for those struggling their family business uh final advice for them uh man uh is you're struggling struggling family business I say I say make sure that you can still go to each other's Christmases and Thanksgivings yeah and you can still hang out with each other that's the kind of that's the kind of ultimate uh you know like like bar you know are you gonna lose that if what I'm gonna if if what I'm gonna say today to my brother or to my sister or to my dad or to my kid if I'm if what I'm gonna say today is going to jeopardize me going to their place for for Sunday night and hanging out that's a bad deal. You should never mess with that. And and you should always it should always be somewhat separate even though you can't totally separate it. It should still be this thing of I can just be screaming and yelling at Darren but I can still go and hang out with him that night as a family. That's very very important. So I I think that if if you sense that you're hitting that wall that level you should really do a reality check. But also like Darren said like persevere you know persevere on on on on keeping on family business because because it gives you a leg up that you don't even really understand. I mean when you talk to business owners that are actually by themselves on something completely um it's crazy the amount of stress that a that a one person owner Darren and I Darren Ryan and I roughly own a third of the company each and and there's there is such a there is such a uh like benefit to that because you know it's not you're not alone yeah on this whole thing and if it's all on you then you will naturally distrust almost everybody because you'll you'll count on your own brain to figure it out whereas you can bounce things off of other people that actually have a stake in this. So I say if you're not if you're all by yourself and it's all working great awesome I would say it'll work a lot better if you'd have if you'd have somebody else partnering your company with you. It would to me look super super depressing running like if I if I if if PDBI you know things happen or whatever in 20 years I don't know what I'm doing 20 years. Yeah but I would all if I would go start another company I would definitely start it with my kids or my in-laws or what I something I'd start with some with somebody else because I don't want to go in it alone.

SPEAKER_04 59:43

Yeah so so for the listeners out who are struggling today they're they're they're they're frustrated with their brother with their dad with their brother their mother in law whoever's whoever that is that are that they're wrestling with today just know that it could be worse. And so if if we can encourage you guys to work through the hard stuff if we encourage you guys to have the tough conversations today stop your truck pick up the cell phone go to their house go to their office whatever it is if you guys can solve the problems cut the drama say the hard things give up don't have to be right you don't have to win my dad always said you don't have to win Ryan you don't always have to win and and I I've tried to adhere to that and and so so if if you can lay down your rights and lay down um the the the idea of always being right I I think there is hope for you guys.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:30

I want to finish that I agree with you one caveat is sometimes the other partner in the company isn't meant to be the partner in that company for you too like it doesn't mean that you you it'll always work no sometimes I just think that generally speaking you're gonna be better off with somebody not necessarily that you might be with the wrong person you might be with the wrong person. It's not a thing where you should stick it out forever. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of situations where you say you say it it's either it either you you move on you sell his from what I've heard just talking to other business owners around the the area and the country generally speaking what causes the most issues is is is is in part no in partnerships what what causes the most issues is work ethic or the oomph put into the company. For sure and and we we haven't ever had that issue which is thank God but that I could see that being a massive struggle where where I'm the I'm the partner and there's another partner here but I'm doing all this break and the other person's just kind of a silent investor they're they get the same dividend checks but oh shoot you know it's just it's it's it's a whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

So uh my my my my final advice I guess to those struggling is just is Proverbs 151 a soft answer turns away wrath but a harsh word stirs up anger. So read that verse put it on your wall if you're wrestling with family business um that's what I want to encourage you guys to do and and and and do that every day. I can't tell you guys how many times we text each other at night at 743 at night and say hi I was I was a butt today I was a jerk um and and usually it starts with us. I don't think we're calling each other out at 70 30 at night usually you're saying hey I I I didn't hear you out I was a jerk. Forgive me I was a donkey right and so um so Ryan just actually has that as a as a copy it just automatically you had Claude set up an automation just text us that every day I do that'd be easy for you Ryan yeah sure sure yeah I'm the one with all the problems I'm sure I am I mean so but here's here's the thing though none of this business success and and we God has blessed us immensely far beyond my wildest dreams it really is I I always say I would I I never I always thought we would be a three or four man shop guys I really I always thought we'd be a three or four maybe get to 10 and that that was that was the that was the that was the big dream and so to be across the 200 mark and you know 100 five years ago doubled it in in the last um in the last five years like it's it's it's great. We we've experienced some level of success and we're so we're so grateful. We're so blessed for that but it's it's not worth it. It's not worth it to me and I don't think it's worth it to you guys either if we can enjoy pizza on a Saturday night Kyle was saying this if we can't have Thanksgiving dinner in November if we can't have Christmas with our with our family it's not it's not it's not worth it. And so so I'm gonna close with my with my life motto and I I mean this I mean this to you too I mean this to my wife Jeanette my kids everybody is that true success is when the people closest to you love and respect you the most and I want to be respected by you guys. I I want to um I and I think I am I I think my my wife and my kids respect me but I that is that is the goal and if I if we can't do that and if you as lower listeners cannot do that and aren't doing that today in your family business then I would say you start looking at your options because it's not worth it. It's not worth it. I know of so many family businesses who hate each other will never do Christmas again and and it's just not worth it. So is it something we're wrestling with every day it's it's it's our own little personal crusade that we're on okay um there's a big crusade in the business we're all rowing that in that same direction there but between us brothers as us partners it is our own crusade. So uh that's where we're at we're in the forge uh the the the podcast is named the forge because it is the forge it's it's uh we're we are beating iron we're we're on an anvil we're getting hammered every day with tough things and tough decisions um but I just want to thank our listeners for listening today and joining us today and if we can encourage you at all in in pressing on and finishing your business well and getting along with your family members please do so. Thanks and have a great day