Episode 4 | Why We Chose the Trades Over College

Most people are told there's one path. Finish school, go to college, get a degree. Ryan, Darren, and Kyle Miller didn't do any of that. They didn't finish high school, and they built one of Indiana's leading manufacturers in lifting, storage, and safety.

This episode isn't just about the trades. The brothers get real about what it actually takes to run a successful business: finding your niche, showing up in person, answering the phone, knowing your role, and they share some strong views on college.  If you're chasing something of your own, this one's for you. 

The Forge With Ryan Miller is a podcast created to help develop company cultures that result in strong teams and create lasting business growth. Real conversations with business owners, manufacturers, and leaders about what it actually takes to build something. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI a leading manufacturer of lifting, storage, and safety systems based in Indiana.

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_01 0:00

It's not always easy. I mean, we're we're we were heated this morning before the conversation even started because there's so much crap going on in the company right now today.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

It's it's always the same as promise. One of the ums and and and he's interested in this, and he has no clue he's going forward, he has no clue he's doing easy.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

There's also a local high school that we're hiring out of here as well. That's the the people that are very passionate about learning the trades, teaching the trades, you know, in the high school years. What I think what people miss a lot is that, you know, I'm just gonna be, you know, a dirty welder, I'm gonna be a plumber, I'm gonna be a you know, in a in a nasty job, be a name pump, who just got promoted two weeks ago, who started as a welder six or seven years ago, and is now um in charge of all the all the welding fabrication now across two plants.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

As you grow a company, you realize that your actual value is not in how many Milwaukee uh impactures you have. Yeah. It's about your ability to retain employees.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

We're short, at least a half a million roles in the trades currently. So 500,000 to 650,000 is the highest rate of unfulfilled trade jobs in the U.S. The gap is gonna even widen as we get into 2030. It's a problem. Well, good morning, everybody. Uh we're back at the forge this morning and talking about a lot of things this morning that are that we're very passionate about. Um uh full disclosure, uh the pressure is high, things are things are um absolutely crazy uh at PWI uh currently, and uh the amount of orders and uh sales coming in is is is absolutely overwhelming. So it's a blessing and yet it's a challenge. Um and and so we're uh we're gonna dive into um the trades this morning and how we developed a passion for the trades. And so um uh leaving, leaving, pausing what we're doing every day, and again, uh us three brothers are are um are in the business all day, every day, doing our things, uh doing our our daily roles, and and also putting our owners' hats on in our um uh in this in these in these meetings, these times, these this podcast here today, and talking about things that really matter um uh for the company. And so uh Darren, just remind everybody what you do in the business. I'm I'm the CEO, president CEO. What do you do in the business again?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Uh engineering. So I'm VB of engineering, so I'm in charge of um yeah, all the engineering. So uh like I said, we before we I have a a uh around a 20-man team, a 20-man engineering team. Um some of them work remote, some of them work, uh most of them work at PWI. Um but uh I'm in charge of but my my my I have a guy, uh Layton Yoder, who's in charge of the charge of the department.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

The director of engineering that works directly below you.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Yeah, I only have one report he reports to me. He's the only one who reports to me. Um so I spend my time primarily on supposed to be on new you know invetting the future, new new products, but it's it's depending on the complexity of a job. If it's not necessarily a new job, but it's just a complex big job, I'll kind of kick it off until it until it's more figured out, yeah, and then hand it down.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Kyle, what what is your role again? Yeah, uh I'm VP of sales, and uh we just yeah, I got about a 25-man team somewhere in that range. And uh and uh we yeah, we just you know take project management and sales very seriously. We we are no commission sales. Uh we uh we just have um yeah, a great group of guys that are probably focusing about 75% of their time on project managing and girls and one girl. Yes, sorry, yes, uh sorry, I didn't mean to call her Michelle like that. She's great sales admin. Uh and uh so yeah, they did a great job around the uh around the PDBI managing the flow of projects and checking in on things here and there and then communicating with all customers. Uh and so it's we like to have sales and project management as one person, so there's one point of contact from the first contact all the way till uh the sales uh is finished.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Thank you. I thought that was that perspective was good. You know, you know, we haven't always been in these roles, you know. And that's I think that's the goal. I think we have a lot of listeners that are listening to us today. There are still, you know, five, 10 man shops, and which is very, very common. I mean, there's there's thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of small businesses, small family businesses like the we like we started. And uh the guys, the the guys were excited about the trades, the owner, the founder was was excited about working in the trades, and and and and what what happens is it is it changes. The role the roles change as you grow. And if you're not willing to do that, you you probably aren't gonna grow. If you're the one that's turning the, you know, turning the wrenches on the cars, if you're the one that's that's that's welding, if you're the one who's uh you know doing the mechanical and pipe fitting uh in your company, you probably aren't gonna grow. So so Darren and Kyle and I have had to uh delegate uh and and and grow as leaders, or we we are the lid uh to the business, of course. Um but so what what are the trades? We talked about talking about today about what we're passionate about in the trades, but first of all, like what are they? Um uh mentioning a couple things that have come to my mind is is is you know, electricians, plumbers, pipe fitters, HVAC guys, ironworkers, uh, welders, machinists, mill rights, boiler makers, and then also going into like manufacturing and and industrial stuff is also the trades, because those, you know, there's welders and uh pipe fitters in that in that trade as well. And those really are have become our customer base. Is that right, guys? So that's that's really who we work for every day. We work alongside the trades and we're working for the trades as manufacturers building something with their hands. Is that is that fair?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah, it's predominantly manufacturers. I mean, we're probably selling the end user of who we're selling to is 90% of the time is going to be a manufacturer. Okay. Um, even if it's sold through a general contractor or a dealer, primarily it's going to be to a manufacturer in the end. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, a lot of our stairway product, a lot of stairs on sales are varies quite a bit. It goes to manufacturers too, but it also goes to uh a variety of but again, construction and building construction and building is also the trades.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

You know, that's yeah, that's who we're working with or alongside uh Braxton. Take me to the next uh uh staff there we have here. Um I had Braxton pull this up for me, but uh we have um Braxton's our producer, by the way. Hi, Braxton. Good morning to you. Um uh are the trades a big deal? Are the trades a big deal? And so that they are are they a really big deal? If you include industrial manufacturing, the Bureau of Labor says there's about 20 million people working in the trades across the U.S. Do you guys believe those numbers? Is that does 20 million sound right to you guys? I have no clue.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Kyle, your stand your stand about uh I think there's about a hundred and what is it, 120 million people that are working in the U.S. Yeah, 140, 50? I can't remember what the number is. Yeah somewhere in that range. So that would that seem about right.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

So the numbers, the numbers that I'm yeah that I was given was about 20 million people working the trades, which means that's the people we're hiring. And we're talking trillions of dollars a year in annual economic activity in the U.S. So when people say, you know, the real jobs are over here, you know, Mike Rowe talks a lot about the trades. I love what Mike Rowe's doing for our industry. Love what he's talking about. And there's many others that are doing that as well. But Mike Rowe's talking about dirty jobs, and and you know, he's encouraging people to to you know get out of high school and get a quick uh, you know, maybe a one-year degree specifically on the trade that they want to go into. And I love that. Yeah, you know, trade school, uh, there's local schools here that uh that you can do if you want to be a pipe fitter or a welder, uh, and and we love that. There's also a local high school that we're hiring out of here as well. That's that the people there are very passionate about learning the trades and teaching the trades, you know, in the high school years already as well. So so it's a really big deal. We're talking trillions of dollars a year in annual economic activity uh around the trades, and it's a problem, right? Like we're trying to hire people right now. One of the things that's got Darren and Kyle and I heated this morning is the fact that we're trying to hire. Uh we're we're we need to hire at a much faster rate. Uh we just crossed the 200 employee mark last week uh as a company, and we're trying to get to 225, 230, 240 uh team members, and that's a really, really big deal. So um another stat that's that's that's coming out here is that we're short at least a half a million dollars, sorry, half a million uh uh roles in the trades currently. So 500,000 to 650,000 is the highest uh uh rate of uh unfulfilled trade jobs in the U.S. The gap is gonna even widen as we get into the 2030s. It's a problem. So we have aging workforce, we have decades of pushing. Here's what we'll get really passionate about, okay? We have decades of pushing young people towards four-year degrees instead of vocational paths. And that's that's killing us. That's the reason why. And so these kids are graduating many times and are unable to find a job uh for uh what does Dave Ramsey always say, for uh, you know, left-handed puppetry or something like that. You know, you know, there's there's nothing like that. And so they get they get they get done with their with their career and they go like, oh shucks, I guess McDonald's or Burger King is hiring, and that's that's a problem. So talk a little bit about um what we what we went through as brothers. Uh we are all three high school dropouts. We talked about that in our in our in our episode last week. Um, and and you know, you right or wrong or indifferent doesn't really matter. It's what we chose to do. Our dad was very passionate about the trades, and we we decided we saw this opportunity as as brothers uh in in different eras there. I mean, I'm 12 years older than Kyle, but uh uh you know our our dad gave us an opportunity to work in the trades, in a welding and fabrication industrial space.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

I think you should mention as well, Ryan, that uh both of our parents did have really wanted us to go through college uh earlier on, uh maybe when like right when they started. That's yeah, that's what that's what dad told me that that a couple of he didn't want you to go to college, but I guess but basically said that hey, you know, I like we want everybody to graduate in our family in our family, we want everybody to go through four-year college, but they had a couple friends that earlier on, like uh like when they were and they had a couple uh like Ryan and Valinda, our oldest, our oldest sister, uh, that had kind of gone through a bad experience with higher education and it and it kind of changed their mindset, uh, is is what dad told me. Uh that rings a bell how they thought about higher education and and they and they went from like we're all gonna you know get four-year degrees to dropping out of high school. Kind of a weird shift. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

And and we were we were weirdos uh among our peers to do that. I I was the only one in in multiple grades before, you know, ahead of me and and behind me that that that I know of that that dropped out to do a a to drop out at all, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Um and so I'm not so yeah, I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not saying that I'm not sitting here saying that promoting dropping out of high school at all. I'm not saying I'm not that's not my opinion today. I'm not I don't think it's necessarily the way or or you should. I don't think it's bad to finish high school. That would be kind of a foolish thing to say, I think. But it worked for our situation, for our family, it made it made sense. Yeah, and in hindsight, I am I'm I'm thankful for it, but it's not like it's a clear, hey kids, you know, you know uh what we're saying. Not at all. I finish high school, but it's just uh I I talked to so many college education, uh college educated kids um as they're go as they're going into college. I just recently talked to someone else and asked them, hey, what you know what they're doing, and and they're starting off, and uh, and and they're it was it was at work uh last week. I was talking to one of the ladies there, and their son is he's going to he's going to uh college and he's and uh and so I asked her the classic, what's he going for? And it's it's it's it's always the same response. Well, he's uh yeah, he's I mean he's really interested in um he he really likes um um a lot of ums and and and he's interested in this and he has no clue what he's going for. He has no clue what he's doing. He's a kid. He's he's a 17 and a half year old kid that doesn't know just like me when I was 17 and a half, didn't know what I wanted to do, whatever. And so and then then they start off this path, and then they go, they get in, they get in year one, year two, and then they really have to figure out what their path is at that point in the college thing. And so they they pick one. And like sometimes people like it. Some people, some some people just don't. To me, it's it's a gamble on on a four years of time, which is a huge deal.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Which could be 100 grand, it could be 150 grand, you know, it could be 50 grand total of the four years, but there's a big, the big spread of of you know, and some of them get a half ride or a full ride. I get that. So just to just uh you know, so we're not promoting, it was just reiterating what Darren's saying. We're not promoting high dropping out of high school. That's not what we're saying at all, even though we did, it was the right path for us two decades ago and all that. Uh, that's it's it's great. And and honestly, uh maybe we were lucky. We were we were blessed by God that that God blessed our our our efforts of jumping into the business. And you know, our parents both died young uh of cancer, as we mentioned uh in a previous podcast uh episode. But but so we're in it, we're all in it, we're all in. But but I will say that, you know, third generation now coming into the business. My my two sons, my oldest son is 20 uh and and is in the business, working in the business, and is actually welding and building one now, fabricating uh structural, you know, uh columns, mezzanines, cranes, uh things like that. So, and my second son also is going to finish high school at the end of next year. He's one year away, and he'll be coming into the business as well, getting a job there. Probably should send them somewhere else to work for three or four years. But they they're passionate about what we're doing. I think our passion for the trades is helping, you know, the the third generation be into it. You know, if if we were kind of like, eh, whatever, you know, um, it it wouldn't work. But uh Dawson and Brock are both uh very excited about coming into the business, and I think your kids probably will as well as they get there. Your your kids are all a lot younger uh than mine.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Peyton, my daughter, she started cleaning this this summer. She's gonna clean. She's 13, so she's already as well. She's really excited about that.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

That's great. I wanted to just say, you know, there's there's there's a lot of things you can talk about when it comes to uh when it comes to working in the trades and and maybe going and getting a you know uh some kind of um uh you know what do you call the the trade schools type things, you know. But generally speaking, I don't think, you know, we were all told this this lie, at least my generation was uh 10 years ago that jobs are going away and you and if you want to get to a high paying job, you gotta learn to code. Learn to code was a very, very common phrase thrown around online and in person, all that stuff, you get all gonna have to learn how to learn how to code. And with with AI coming out right now, and I'm I'm a big, big, big fan of Claude uh AI and Chat GPT, I feel like is kind of the uh you know ugly stepchild already, but uh you know it it's it it is uh and they're kind of trying to get an IPO out until you know as quick as they can, I believe, because they know anthropic with Claude is going to is going to also have an IPO probably within a year. Wow. And it's going to be it's kind of a race to get to become public. And then you got F AI too. Anyway, all that to say is that Claude uh you know learning to code has has actually that's that's the it's a lie. It's one the other direction. People that are coding are gonna have to learn how to do something else because coding just became so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

And so Kyle, when do you think that changed? Like, like what do you think that shifted? I mean, uh at PWY, we started using AI six months ago heavily. I mean, not more than six months ago. So so I'm asking, like, like, does this actually a change? I mean, did anybody see this coming at this level three years ago?

SPEAKER_00 15:26

No one thought it was going to be maybe as big as it is now, but people definitely like people like Elon Musk and that kind of stuff, we're calling this out, you know, three or four years ago easily. But I will say though that it's not like you know, if you're a coder, your job's gone either. It's not like that, but it's but if you're a low-level coder and if you're if you went to school for four years to learn how to code, and then you're trying to get into a job somewhere right now, good luck. Good luck. I heard it's there's so much competition now, and if you know how to use AI well, uh you're going to you're gonna be running circles around whatever you were taught in those classes, because it's because it's it's really how it is. Yeah, and and it's almost like you know, like if you were going to go, you know, study to be, you know, I don't even know, uh a guy that can interpret encyclopedias, and then the internet comes out. Yeah. It's like, come on, you know, in the 90s, you're saying, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

I heard I heard Jeff Bezos just uh interview just like a week or two ago. He was he was down, he was at Blue Origin and and did an interview with with some news organization. Anyhow, they were asking about AI and stuff, and he and he the way he described it was he said he doesn't think he he doesn't think and remember all these people's opinions, they're just opinions. I mean they could be right or wrong, but his opinion was that not every yeah, AI is not coming to steal all the jobs, but he said, but he said that um imagine you're a coding guy and you're you're building you're building software, you're designing software, and it's like it's a guy, he said his analogy was it's a guy um uh digging you know uh digging a basement with a shovel. So he's digging along, he's digging the shovel. It might take him six months to dig his basement with a shovel for for your for the house you're trying to build. He said, AI is like giving that guy a bulldozer, and I wanted to correct him, it actually been excavated that would dig it. Um basil, but he had I I did watch him drive a payloader one time on on a he when they um broke round on their uh on their huge uh air hub like eight years ago. He came in with a bull uh a payloader and and dumped it.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

So even Jeff Bezos is in the trades, is what we're saying.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

So it was cool because that's what we're finding out too is that AI is just it just empowers you like 100x.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah. We're gonna do a we're gonna do a whole, it's on my list. We're gonna do one episode on AI and how we're using it in the trades, in manufacturing, in industrial work like what we're doing, because it's it's already been absolutely life-changing for us, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:48

So one, yeah, well, one one thing on on the trades thing I've got to mention is I was talking to a friend of mine who owns an HVAC company here recently. I was talking to him, and he was talking about hiring, um, and they're they're really busy, and and and they're they're uh from South Carolina anyhow, and uh he he I was blown away by what his salary, what he was offering people, and and he was fighting for this one guy.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Um, and as a service technology as a service technician.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Not just the tech next level up. Sure. I mean, it was he was I think he was telling me it was a hundred and he was bidding between a hundred and thirty thousand a year, and I was just like, are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 18:31

So what often happens, let's just hit that for a minute. So so what I think what people miss a lot is that you know, I'm just gonna be, you know, a dirty welder, I'm gonna be a plumber, I'm gonna be a, you know, and that's a nasty job. The truth is there's often, you know, this is also about leadership here. And so as well, so we have seen people in the trades at PWI uh starting as a running a saw, uh becoming a certified welder, whatever that is, and going up in the ranks, uh, we have Nate Bomb, who just got promoted two weeks ago, who started as a welder six or seven years ago and is now uh in charge of all the all the welding fabrication now across two plants. And and uh pretty incredible, you know, was were have the trades been good for him? Absolutely. You know, Nate's making uh good money today and and doing a great job. So just we have we've tried really hard to promote from within a lot of the kids that were that got hired a decade ago, 15 years ago. We have some you know almost 20-year veterans there now that are approaching 20 years that started their welding and are now leading you know entire divisions of our company uh in in the trades, right? So there's massive opportunity, like Darren's saying, in in growing, in growing uh and getting paid really, really well.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I think there's also I think there's also a thing, Ryan, that people have this you know misconception that when you you start off as you know you know the bottom end of the of the totem pole, so to speak, and you're trying to and you're doing a dirty job, you're doing something hard, like that, that's what you will be forever. And there is the in it and you just I'm just repeating what you said, but basically, I feel like people don't understand that if you're part of a growing company, yeah, it's a lot different. If you're a company that's that's 20 year, 20 year, 20 people, you know, 20 person company, and and most of the guys that have been there have been there for 12, 14 years, and they haven't changed their company size in 10 to 15 years, yeah, you probably aren't gonna change your job. Yeah, uh, but if you're a company that's that's been growing uh quickly and and is scaling this way and that way, uh you're gonna find out that if you if you stick around and the company keeps on growing, you're gonna have some serious opportunities, most likely if you're a good guy.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

And and perhaps even, I mean, we you can throw this out there, perhaps the very thing that you were uh wanted to go to college for, or that you wanted to get you know, you know, manufacturing leadership or whatever you wanted to do, or you wanted to get you know an MBA in something, whatever it might be, um uh you you can be using those very, very skills in leading uh in in the trades, in if it's HVAC like Darren mentioned, if it is in the welding fabrication business like we we're doing and industrial solutions like we're offering to our customers. Uh or you know, we go into all of our customers' locations all the time, every week, and we're seeing they're trying to hire people as well. They're in the exact same, exact same mode that we're in, uh trying to hire people. You know, that's why we're so busy, because they're all busy, right? So we're manufacturers serving manufacturers truly.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

And we're also, Ryan, be careful. You know, we were speaking to everybody around the country that we know this is localized to what we're talking about, and and and a few of our specific trades we're talking about, uh, or people or friends of ours, that kind of thing. But it might not be the same way everywhere. It's like we're not trying to say that, but it is it is crazy how often we hear how how you know it's jobs are gonna be taken away and this is bad, or here this is better, and then you try to actually hire and you can't hire anybody. Right. It's weird. Like, what is the truth? Our local economy is supposed to be down right now, yeah. Uh with RV and modular home you know manufacturing, and you still can't hire people, it feels like, uh, you know, even for fair wages and that kind of thing, because there's still demand. There's still a lot more demand than what people say there is.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Yeah, it's fair. I I uh but I I want to be careful too. Like, so we I have quite I have I would say close to half my team has a college degree. And I have some really, really good, good, good guys that are have have been through college too. So I just want to say that too, as a disclaimer. Obviously, we have the I I am saying college does not define who you are. I always say when I when I hire somebody, I I hire you on your ability to learn. How fast can you learn? Are you a dry sponge or are you are you a wet sponge? Right? So can you can you can you soak up information or not? KK a dry sponge just it just it just just soaks everything up. He he just he's observing.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

I was gonna say exactly. Darren's new uh Darren, what's the other line? Doers do others don't? Is that doers do others talk? Darren Darren wants to be famous for something that would be doers do others talk.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

You found out I have a whole PowerPoint of my own my own my own uh quotes quotes. His humility quotes, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:51

That's yeah, it's gonna be a short book, but it's gonna be worth reading.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

But then I found out that Darren's Darren's uh yeah, is what was it, doers do others talk? Is that your quote? He basically 100% stole it from Walt Disney. If you look at Walt Disney's quote, Darren still. Yeah, he's just plagiarizing.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

So so look, I Darren's right though. I we're we're not gonna be able to do that. I missed that first part. What did you say? Yeah, I said you were right. And you probably stole from somebody else, but you are right when you you say that we don't we I'm very grateful for the people on our team that have a college education. I'm so glad that Dean, our CFO, you know, you know, knows what the heck he's doing with finances, right? So I was excited about that, right? That it's let's not we're not killing that. We're we're saying that not everybody has needs to follow that path. And we actually need a half a million more people around the U.S. to not follow that path because that's the shortage we're in right now, and with AI and coding changes and all that there. We truly need people to join the trades, as Mike Rowe has been preaching for a a decade or more.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

So one of my guys, uh Noah Diaz, he's our he's uh engineer in our in our um in our office, and he so he he's a great guy, and he's and he went to college and he was he was two years into college when he when he got married, and then he applied here and got hired here. So he kind of kind of stopped his college. He did he did stop then going to college. And he kind of wants to finish that eventually, but and I I want him to, it's it's great, it's fine. But I always told him, I said, I tell you, and this sounds a little arrogant, but I said, I tell you what you're worth. I tell you what your deg your degree is worth to me because I'm the one paying you. So so so if if I mean if if you're worth, I mean, I mean I'm just saying it's like it's it's like and it's it's not it's not like so instead of i you could say the market says what you're worth, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Well, I'm the employer. The employer. Yeah, well, the market, the market. Right, I'm gonna be able to get it.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

But you're as an employer, yeah. If I if I say you were you're you're worth 10 bucks an hour um because that because because of your skill set, because your ability to learn, that's what it is. If it's worth a lot more than that, it's it's it's because of again, you your your ability to learn and and your effort that you show. And and and I and I that that that's my whole thing. And so it's funny because we we hired a recently hired our own PE, and I mentioned that earlier too, um in the previous previous podcast. But and so Noah is now in charge of um basically doing all the calculations, basically assembling all the all the information, doing calculations, and all and um creating all the calc spec sheets for every project for all of our loadings, moment connections, foundations, you know, anchor, anchor pull out, all that strength, all the healthy profus, which is all based on our on our product line, just to be clear, Darren.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

I mean PBI builds so for mezzanines, overhead cranes, mezzanines, and fall protection safety equipment.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

So when you when you have a column and you have column, you and you have you have anchorage points, and is is it is it fastening to an existing slab? Is it a new footer? So all the there's a lot of calculations to go into all that has to be all documented so a PE can review that. So recently we've been we've been so so Noah's been assembling all this information and our and and our Mike, our new PE, has been reviewing it, and he's like, Mike's like this is this is great. I mean, it's it's it's like approved. And so and so I'm saying but my point to Noah is like, Noah, you did that.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah, it's good you did that, and and so and so it's just Darren skipped over that a little bit. So so just to clarify, Darren's got 20 plus people on his team. Um, and we've and and started by our father uh a decade ago, you know, his his theory as far as his theory decade ago was around the fact that we don't want the liability but having our own PE on staff. We want to have we want to outsource that. So the idea that as our engineers are designing stuff every single day that that we're sending that out to a PE to get stamped, it it takes the liability off of PBY and on to that firm, whoever whoever's doing that. But just as of recently in the last six weeks, we Darren hired uh our first our first actual PE. Um and and it's been a huge deal for us uh be able to you know stamp uh uh the approval process for our customers has gotten a lot faster. And also just looking at our standard our standard product.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Oh yeah, yeah. That's that that's the thing that I I I um so a lot of the firms we work with, uh we work with several different firms um before we hired our Mike and I and I uh to be honest, I'm very I'm very frustrated now knowing how easy it is versus I just I just feel like engineering firms, and this is not just in just in uh in our line of work. I I I talked to a lot of friends in the construction industry when it goes to when it goes to architects or engineers, you know, for site plans, all this stuff. It's slow, it's it's expensive. And I and I've told I've told firms very clearly, I said, I'm okay with expensive, but can it at least be fast? Yeah. And and and and because because I uh so the money's the money. So it's so it's so it's it costs us X. That's fine. Can I have it fast? No, it's still slow. It's it's like they want to, it's like the most engineering firms are run like a law firm. They get billed by the hour, and they want to make sure they milk everything they can and make it and make it seem as hard as it is. They want to make it, they want to make it seem so difficult, so as so as so then you're okay with the high bill. I'm like, screw that. Give me the high bill and give it fast.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, and because customers be fair, Darren. You know, we we've had a lot of frustration with with engineering firms over the last 20 years. And we also have found some pretty uh couple, two or three that we really have have really helped us, have really thwarted, advanced our product line.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

They have, they have, they have. Okay. All right. Thank you to our vendors out there who have served us for many, many years. I mean, I mean, I'm not calling any of them out because I I am thankful for them, but just not overly thankful.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Yeah, sure. So let's let's let's let's kind of dive into the trades here a bit. So so PBI goes around the country and and and sets up manufacturing plants, uh, works in the construction you know projects, uh, we're doing stairways and mezzanines and cranes in construction projects all the time. We're either working alongside during the construction process or we're or we're you know going into a manufacturer that already has a building built uh and needs needs one of our products, right? So it's a big deal. So how do we fall in love with the trades? I mean, I I kind of feel like you know, it's kind of in our blood. I think, you know, our our our grandfather was a farmer um actually on both sides, our my my mom's uh dad and my dad's dad were both farmers, you know, and so uh so I guess that's the trades as well in some ways, uh working with their hands, right? So uh I feel like I feel like if we wouldn't have done this, if if our father wouldn't have started PWI in 79, uh, we probably would be doing something in the trades. But like what what make Kyle, what makes you passionate about what you get to do every day in the trades? I mean, you're sure you're leading sales, but you're really you're building stuff with your hands. And even our sales guys are are technically thinking through our products and how we can make something, build something to serve that customer. What makes you passionate about what we get to do every day?

SPEAKER_00 29:53

What I love doing is fixing complex problems, solving for us uh solving com complex problems for our customers. And uh when something's pretty easy and standard and just you know make 30 of those things, I get I'm I'm kind of bored. That's just my personality. If it's easy, anybody do it. That's I was getting too. Thanks, Darren. Uh but it's again, Darren's feeling somebody else's quote, right? Thanks, Darren. I think that if you're looking to get into uh uh the trades in general, uh you should definitely look for niche, a niche uh uh sector of whatever market you're looking at. And it's it's funny, you know, what we the problem is with with with being in a niche, it's very, very uh uh it can be very difficult at times. And so you you find the hard, you know, because you're not very diversified. Let's let's hit that a bit. Hang on because you're not very diversified, is that what it's hard? I'll get there. I I just I'm just saying no, if if if you see, man, there's 15 other companies that have done this, uh, and I just want to be the 16th company doing that, that's great, but it's very hard to set yourself apart. Yeah. Um, right now, you know, funny enough, not not in the trades, but like uh SaaS companies, software as a service companies, are are struggling with that so much right now, and they're talking to me. It's really scary because because you're trying to set yourself apart from all the other companies that are doing the exact same thing. Now you should no no no very similar.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

No, there they should be so there's that SaaS companies should be scared of what of what uh AI is gonna replace them with.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Correct. I'm not saying I'm I'm not bringing in the AI factor. I'm just saying that there's so many that do such a similar thing. Sure. And so and so, but it's in the same way, you know, if you're gonna go out and uh and be you know a mechanic for you know, for instance, I think it's it's great. Go be a mechanic. There's plenty of work that is mechanic. But if you can be a specialty mechanic that focuses on one one difficult, annoying, maybe you know, you'll only only work on German cars. Or or you work on the deaf the deaf problem in the trucks, you know, whatever the case. Whatever the hardest part is of that of the industry, if you can figure out what how to be good at that, yeah, people will you'll have other mechanic shops throwing cars your way because they don't want to mess with them. Yeah, and so it's it's the the thing with it is like it's cool, it looks easy to go do the easy things, but easy is also easily replaceable. That's right. And and so you have to, I think even when you're picking, if you're a single, just normal guy is trying to not even start a company, you just gotta go work for somebody. If you want to protect your job, it's not guaranteed at all because you can niches can fall in and out. But I think it's really important to to specialize in things. Don't go for this general, broad overall thing because it's very easy to be replaced. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah, like a friend of mine told me a couple years ago, there's riches in the niches, right? So I I think I think we have found our little niche. Niche niche, I can't, I can't I don't know. I've heard it both ways, right? So as uh as Trevor and probably gone to college. Yeah. So if we went on to college, we probably wouldn't know which way to say that. But yeah, it I think either way is is correct. But but I think there are there is profitability in in laser focusing on what you do and what you're the best at in the world. The hedgehog principle from Jim Collins is is what are we what are you the best at the world at? And now what what happens there though is it is I think people get really freaked out and concerned that they're not diversified enough. I think diversification, we've learned that diversification is about going to different markets with with your nickname, your niche or your niche, right? So um we I think I think a decade ago we were we were saying we got to diversify, we we you know the you know the the market soft. Well, we were so focused on our local community. So if so for the for the people out there, listeners out there, they're saying, how did you guys get um uh you know national? Well, it is it was the fact that we actually did focus on our product line and said this is what we're the best of the world at. And hey, wow, you could actually market around that. It's hard to market around a broad scope. It's really easy to market around a niche. So if somebody's saying, hey, I'm the best guy in my community that works on deaf problems on diesel diesel trucks, like we have a lot of, you know, we have a fleet of trucks, right? So deaf is always a problem. If there's a guy that says, I'm the deaf specialist in northern Indiana or in central Texas, wherever that's at, how easy is that to do Facebook marketplace ads and or sorry, not Facebook marketplace ads, Facebook ads, uh Google ads on that. So that's so if you're really good at building bridges or you're really good at at heating cooling systems specifically, you're the you're the king of heating cooling in your area, but you don't do plumbing, whatever. What is that thing that you're good at? So that's I think a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Most people will will, if you're if you're if you're a small business owner and you have, you know, five, ten employees, whatever, maybe a little smaller of a company, your your natural answer to that question is gonna be, well, I'm good at all these things. Yeah, I'm really actually good at this wide array. And it's actually like, yeah, you might be okay at it, but what about the the special things that you can actually focus in, focus in on and just be really good at that? Really, really good at what are you best, best, best at? Not just good at or or pretty good at well, good is the enemy of great. I mean, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Like, like I should have used the word great. I said I said the word best, and it, but you've got to be great at these things. Good is not good enough because good doesn't separate you. Good does not get you out of the people pile.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

I I I I think uh the two two things I would say adding here is basically is that I don't know, sometimes like I think uh I am not one. So basically, I uh if you if you're a construction company and and you're and you're and you're I think I think a lot of your construction can be is is fairly easy. And dad always said, you know, you start a construction company, any guy with a pickup, a pickup truck and a skill saw can be your competition. Any one of your employees can leave and be your competition, and that happens all the time. Every day. It's still true. But what what what's what's what the thing is is that is that as you grow a company, you realize that your your your value, your actual value is not in how many Milwaukee uh impactors you have. Yeah, it's about your ability to retain employees. Yeah, if you if you your value isn't how many employees you have that like coming to work for you and that and that show up and do so you you can you can quote that job to frame that maybe it's another another job, maybe it's another contractor's uh job, but if you can show up with with five guys and start framing a house next week, you got the job.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

And so that's that's really being being having and maintaining your team is is a huge deal. Well, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Can I touch on that before we go on? Let's let's let's I'm gonna keep this focused here. You that's really, really important. And I think this is something that founders, you know, our dad probably struggled with as well, but but uh but I think we at all founders and and owners and CEOs, they want to grab, they want to maintain control. They want to be the guy that's out on the construction site framing the house themselves. They they feel I just talked to a guy last week, uh actually I don't know what it was, it was I was talking to Jason Chasson uh with Chass on Smoke. He said, I really, I said I really feel stupid walking in here with a clean shirt this morning and not welding. I go back there and I feel like I'm not valuable. I walk through the shop and I watch my guys welding, and I actually feel less than a man because I'm not I'm not doing the dirty jobs anymore. And and that's what, but but he he's he's seeing and he's understanding that he's got to duplicate himself. And so that's really so talk about that a little bit more, Darren. Like what is what is what how important has it been for us to step back further and further and further, not because we're too good for it, but to actually lead to build a culture so that there's other people framing that house, wiring that house, uh uh building, designing that crane for in our case and welding the crane. Well, it's in our case.

SPEAKER_02 37:19

I tell all my managers, so I have so I have several managers on my team, and I always tell them, like, you have it's not about not knowing how to do it. You have to be able to grab that, grab the welder and weld. Yeah, and you have to be able to grab the open open open the open inventor, open Tecla, and show them how to do it and show open AutoCAD and and show them that you exactly know how to do it. Because if you can't call out details, like when we're when we're it's really important, like when we're we're modeling stuff and we say, look, so when we're you know we're constraining you know this to this and this assembly to this assembly and and watch, are we using are we constraining to faces or we constraining to to uh planes? And we talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Nobody's talking about it. But what do you what are you referring to? These are these are engineering terms, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

No, no, so so in a in a when you're when you're 3D modeling, the way you constrain a model, so when you're building something, the way you constrain uh a nut to a hole or a or a plate to the end of a beam, um, it's it's the way you're building the model. Yeah, and you can do it, there's there's sloppy ways to do it that work, but can they those constraints can break later, depending if you if you change something to a face, all of a sudden you in your model, this plate might be free-floating. And by chance, it's moved.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

And there it's it's there, but it's not it's not it's not constrained right. Yeah, it's a big deal and it causes problems. So you can do sloppy work that sometimes you'll get away with. Yeah, the next thing, well, the problem with that is it's not a good workflow because the next time someone opens and uses that model to do something else, they're not aware that you didn't do your work right. And so when what's putting and saying all that is when we're in our meetings and we're talking about uh our work, which is designing, I like to be able to know exactly what we're talking about. And I I always and Elon Musk says, you know, you when you ask when you're interviewing a guy, an engineer, dive into a dive all the way into one detail. Yeah, how did you fix this problem? How did you do it? And and I like doing my guys diving all the way in because soon you can tell real quick if they're unsure of the detail. Well, that's true.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

That's true, I think, for across the board. I mean, I even some of my leaders you get you keep drilling down and you're like, well, why? Well, where'd you get to that point? And and it the theory can break apart pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Well, the the their theory can be their foundation of their decision was what they was what one of their guys told them. Oh, by the way, that guy's two weeks old. Yeah. He says, Well, that machine sucked. Or, or we decided this because and like you just you didn't you don't even actually know.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

You just took someone's word for it. One thing that I think, you know, back to what Ryan brought up there. I've I've talked, I've said this live, try to write this out. I I say I haven't, I want to write this out. It's I call it the foreman problem. The foreman problem is is what we were talking about earlier. Is you have us uh you know, a 15 employee company, and the owner, the founder, the the 47-year-old, the 55-year-old guy that's been really good. Everybody knows him. He's the he's the head salesman, he's the he's a foreman on site, he's all head of purchasing too. And um, and then you know what he does? Because he needs to have some kind of office work going on. He hires an office lady or he hires somebody in the office, uh, back at the office to do the bookwork. To do the book work and and just make sure they kind of cover up all the all the crap that he's been doing and and they and and just and just fix this whole thing. And really, in reality, where he'd be best served is paying a foreman, paying a foreman to take his job out on site, and and and he stays in the office not getting dirty, is what what what Jason Smoke was saying. And it's it's weird because it's such a it's such a paradox because you think that you will be showing the guys how you're you're a good worker and you're gonna be in charge of quality and the customers are gonna love to see you, but actually what you can do behind the scenes in an office somewhere is actually gonna make more customers happier longer in the long term. And it's such a it's such a weird mind shift. I think sometimes it almost it almost takes a second generation to break that. Yeah. Because they think that they have to be out there.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

Often, often it doesn't even happen.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

I mean, many times how many 50 or how many men in their 50s uh listening today are are you know are still in the trades every day, they're in the shop, they're doing their thing, and they're they they're never gonna get out of it. But I I remember that specifically. I remember being made fun of by our team. Ooh, Ryan, you know, hey, pretty boy, hey, you're too good to get dirty anymore. I that that all happened. I mean, it all happened for me. I was the first, I was the first one of us three, obviously, as as uh the oldest brother here to to get that treatment. And all of a sudden, you know, for Kyle, it was no big deal. I mean, like, like, but somebody's gotta start that, you know what I'm saying? And so, and we need other smart people running the business that aren't getting dirty to feed the work, to engineer the, you know, I was feed being sales coming in the door. Um, there's nothing more sad to me than than having the foreman, uh, I mean, it's a lesson we learned the hard way, obviously. We're gonna do a whole episode on uh on sales, the importance of sales. Uh, we keep throwing that out there, and it's it's so important. But when when that owner founder guy is also the foreman, the foreman problem, right? The foreman mindset. And he's he's also responsible for for making it rain. So every time his phone rings, he's looking at and hitting voicemail because he's getting ready to pound a nail in. That's a sale that was lost. And somehow he he can't see it. He can't see the importance of that is way more important than keeping this going. But it's often because it's it's a lack of delegation. They're not willing to hire and pay that guy 37, 37 or 45 bucks an hour to be the foreman on the job site and frame that house, to build that bridge, to to whatever it is, but you know, to replace himself.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

You'd be amazed what you can sell if you show up right away and you do what you said you were gonna do. Yeah, it's it's for these, these, these foreman that I'll get out there when I when it runs into one of my jobs that I can also meet that next week sometime. No, no, how about you be out there that day? Or no one's ever met because you're there too quickly.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Get out there, talk and and shake a hand, and but people think that that's secondary to the the product, the quality of what's getting out there. And it's it's not true.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

I was I was talking to uh this weekend, I was talking to uh a friend of mine, and he he he he manufactures uh wood wood components, and he was so he was he was he was telling me that you know he was telling me that um uh one of their customers uh from I think it's Illinois, it was like called, hey, they said how many more of these these things can you produce? And they want there's a high demand for them. And and I didn't have a chance to tell them this, but like what he should do, and basically the place is placing a lot of orders for these things, and it's high it happened to be a high margin product. Okay, and so what I want to say is you you should drive to Illinois, you should fly to Arkansas, you should go go and see the customer. It is it changes absolutely when you show up, when you show up and you shake their hand. It's absolutely changes absolutely everything because a relationship is established. And now it's not just a price point thing. Now it's just not now, now when there is one bad unit shipped or you have one little issue, you know, Bob. You know the Samuel. And you should buys you so much. Shaking his hand and seeing their office walking through their floor changes everything. We started here.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

You're next here. I just want to, Kyle, I want to ask you, I want you to talk more about this. But yes, I I have all I have so many people I've talked to. I mean, I uh trade shows, wherever else I'm at, and this the owner, founder, CEO, whoever that is who still wants to get dirty, thinks he's they always say, I'm not, I'm just not a sales guy. I'm not a sales guy. You don't need to be a sales guy. I mean, uh, sales is so much, it's it's it's 99% relationship. And our dad was not a sales guy. He was not, and yet he was because he he was trustworthy, he he was good with relationships and talking, having conversations with people. And all people want is for you to answer your freaking phone and be there day of, no, the next day, yeah, whatever, and show up and say, I'll do, I'll do what what you need and I'll do it on time.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

And as a 100%, and as a founder or an owner in a company, you have an unfair advantage. Yeah, you're going out on site and you're talking to somebody, they they know if you're the if they know you're an owner or a or a founder, you they already have trust you because you you're out here, you're the guy. There's nothing, there's no ulterior motives, it's just you're the guy. And so to not use that, to hide behind a wall and not be able to uh you know meet customers and that kind of thing as an owner is is pretty crazy to me because you're losing that much of an advantage. We started tracking uh uh this uh metric a couple years ago, uh, and we we started we wanted to know what percentage of RFQs, requests for quotes that come in that we uh that we sell versus um not sell on our success rate for in-person visits were had before the the quote was sent, or they were not had. So all we did is they could either customers could either come in to PWI or we could go visit them. And we tracked that and we tracked that uh if we we had a 14% success rate on all the RFQs that came in, that includes ones that are maybe even bad, uh, you know, or spam is so 14% success rate. And when we tracked uh how many, and that that was when we did not shake their hand. So 14% success success rate. But when we did shake their hand and they either came to our facility or we went there, it went to from 14 to 40 percent. That's how crazy it is. That's how crazy it is. You think it isn't worth it, and you think, well, we we already had a good conversation, but the guy that shakes up or shows up and slaps some skin is gonna get the job. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Darren, uh, talk talk a little more about why you love the trades and what why you you're probably the most passionate of all of all of us, uh, because you're you're you do best locked in your office all day, every day, you know, building and designing new stuff, which is kind of what what what our dad was into as well. Uh I think Kyle and I are a little more people facing than what you are. You you're you're the happiest when you're locked in your office designing stuff. What like why why why do you like that? Why do you like building and designing stuff, meaning the trades? What makes you passionate about the trades?

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Um like uh Kyle said earlier, the problem solving, you know, and the the challenge of it. Um so like when I when I'm when I'm it's partially just the way my brain is wired. So when I'm driving down the road, I've I've often told my wife, I said, when I'm driving to like, let's say you're driving to Florida, um, you make the bad choice of driving there versus flying, and you're driving down, and I can literally hear my brain rot. I feel like it's shrinking. My brain's shrinking. Because it I I just I feel like I have to figure something out. So usually when I'm driving, I try to I try to like 3D model in my head the whole time so I can like figure out I didn't want to figure it twisted. I want to figure, I want to figure, I can't just sit there and do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

You're so present with your wife and kids when you're oh yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Speaking of yeah, work-life balance. Well, have we ever had to do that? Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

I'm just saying because you want to stay awake. So I I like so I like I like figuring things out, I like designing things. And so I that that's that's that's what it comes down to. I mean, I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

You also like meeting customers though as well.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

I love meeting customers. I love meeting with customers um too. Um, but because I love problem solving in in that way, um, when there's problems, then I'll handle off the sales that can deal with issues. Yes. But just the fun beings I like.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Yeah. It's pretty true. What one thing Darren struggles with, and we we we we we argue about this a lot, and I think the whole team has argued about this quite a bit with Darren. Darren, Darren, Darren loves it so much to a fault that he likes solving pro clearly. He likes solving problems so much to a fault that he will design a custom one-off for any solution for any, and the price doesn't even matter. Uh Darren Darren just likes the challenge, and and our dad was exactly that way, which is probably why we didn't make any money for a decade or two or three, whatever that was, when we were getting started, because dad couldn't say no to a problem. Uh, he would love to solve it.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

And and so Impossible jobs just take longer.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

That was dad's quote. That was that was our father's quote. Uh impossible jobs just take longer. Uh, and so I think we still do some things like that, but but we've had to rein Darren in a bit. Uh Kyle, talk about that. You're so you you're you're well you have opportunities coming in every week, every day, uh leads coming in, RFQs coming in, and some of those Darren never finds out about. Is that is that fair? Because you'd know you'd know that he couldn't help himself.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

There's a padlock on Darren's office for you know a reason, and my sales guys know that they can't go bother Darren uh unless they have their manager with them. Yeah. Because Darren is like, it's like you know, moth to a flame. If he hears something that's kind of weird or whatever, they know they can just suck him in like that.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Especially throw in some big national brand that it could be for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

You know, you know, uh, no, it's more about how weird it is. Okay, how weird it is. So yeah, brand could be a thing, but it's how weird it is, you know, the weirder Darren, you know, it's hey, we're gonna do, you know, uh uh, you know, gonna weld a crane underneath uh uh you know a swimming pool, a ship, you know, it's it's gonna be underneath it's gonna be it's gonna be pulling whales out of the ocean. Okay, it's like oh, you know, it has to be in, and we can never do it because you know what's an underwater crane. But I'll I'll say this here though, that that that it really is like when it comes down to building weird custom crap, which we love doing, okay? Products, but yeah, go ahead. I like either either way you want to call it. What I'm trying to say is the one thing that I think that uh that Darren and Dad both didn't uh understand very well was how to charge the correct price for things. And so uh what we found out um in sales here, and and we don't have this all figured out. We we we say that all the time. We we are literally learning the whole time. Uh but one thing that is so important is to charge what is appropriate for that job. And some people take this the the the wrong way and they say, oh, just just double that price, just triple that price. It's a that's a bad way of thinking as well. You need to charge what you need to have in it to make a good profit, uh a decent profit on it. And and it's gotta be reasonable and you gotta be upfront with the customer about that cost before you get all the way into the details of everything. And if if you if you throw, you know, if you let's say you're gonna quote a project, it's gonna cost a hundred thousand dollars, okay? And in your in your head, you look at this, this looks complex. You don't know what the customer's mindset is. Is the customer think this is 20 grand? Does he think it's 200? Well, if you throw something out there like, hey, we're thinking between 80 and 120 for this for this project before we get all the way into the details, does that scare you? Are you willing to commit to something that that's that size? And and usually the answer is yeah, I'm cool with that. Um, or sometimes it's like, man, we need something way cheaper, a different version of something. Save say being up front, there is no customer that will hate that you gave them a ballpark before you started. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Because it feels good. And and well, one thing that one thing honestly too is that is that we've we've experienced this often in our in our a lot, almost almost more in the in the in in years, years ago, but it's designing things that that the customers end up not using. And that is the worst feeling ever. I don't care if you get paid you know a billion dollars for it. Um, you know, but it it's if you if customer comes to you the problem, they say, hey, man, I really need to lift this, spin this, turn this. It's a material handling issue, or it's a it's a safety. And so you so you you you dive all the way in and you design this super awesome, cool thing, and you build it, and and and and with a few tweaks, it's it works, it is growing. And then all of a sudden, six months later, you walk into that plant. You drive past that plant and you see some yellow painted steel out back, you're like, I spent two months on that. You know, and and they paid for it. But but it's it's uh what I'm what I'm trying to say is that what's what the fulfillment I get, the satisfaction I get, we get is when we provide solutions to customers and they actually use them and want them, and eventually they want another one, not throwing the weeds.

SPEAKER_00 52:41

Sometimes you're surprised they actually are using them. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

It's true. Like someone built something in the world. Well, I remember back the first the first default protection job I sold um in uh in the into the RV industry was I was shocked that to go back in there a month or two later, and the guys were actually all harnessed and tied off to our system that we designed for them. I just feared they're gonna put it in there to put to appease OSHA and never ever use them again. So it is very satisfying satisfying when you when you build a solution with a customer and it actually it works for them pretty flawlessly and they love it.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

And during the safety is a little harder to sell than than mezzanines, storage, uh VRCs and cranes because generally safety is like I was told I have to buy this. But generally the products that we're selling to people people want and are excited to use, but fault protection is also good, it's not it's not bad at all, and a lot of people want to use them, but it it's it's a little bit of a change of process, that kind of thing for people. It can get you know, you know, all the time.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Okay, I'm throwing, I'm throwing, throwing a bone out to you guys. What what makes PBI special? You know, we're talking about our company, our baby that we've you know, we've been working at for decades. We're trying to grow this thing, trying to build this company. What makes us special? I I always kind of say, you know, what what I think works so well for us is that we are manufacturers, you know, in the trades, uh serving other manufacturers in the trades, building something. So we're we're we're people that are building something, serving people who are building something else. And so when we bring customers in to give it tour, and I always call it the nickel tour. Give me a give me a nickel and we'll walk you through for an hour and we'll show you what we're doing over here. And and I just want to just uh welcome welcome people to come visit PDBI and see what we're doing here, because I it it's it's it's it's really fun to do that because we get your problems. We are able to understand our customers' problems because we have the same problems in hiring staff, the same problems in in material handling, same problems in storage and space and safety concerns. So, but what makes us special besides that? That's something um what's something that stands out to each of you? Um you know, 30-second answer on what makes PBI special and and separates us from the rest. Darren, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Go for it. They're deferring to each other. Oh, I've never seen that before in my life. This feels awkward. Um, I I don't know. I would say I I I don't try to think. What makes us what your question was what makes us special makes PBI special uh you know in in the trades? Yeah, well, I would I would say I would say that I mean I this is gonna sound so unlike me. So this is gonna sound really weird, but our people make us special. I and that I'm not like your uh don't hire me for an HR guy. Um I would make a very uh unique one. I guess you'd be this would be happy. Um but I I do think when you when you when I'm in a zoom call with a with a with a new client or a potential client or or or our client is is has visiting us and and and and us, our team, our sales guys, some of our engineers around them, and they they always they always say the same thing. This is not bragging on us as owners. Oh no. This is this is like our team. Our team is they say every almost every time they say, it just feels different here.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

When they walk in, when they walked in, the area. Yeah, that the atmosphere, the atmosphere, something about it, they just said, and and and and one thing about it is is that as I I like our team is just focused on on getting the best best solution to the customer. And that sounds, I know that sounds so typical and so uh LinkedIn-ish, I would say. And I hate that LinkedIn-ish.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

It's a new word. Well, but the the truth is, Darren, what you're saying is culture has made an insane difference for us. We've we've we've doubled down and invested in good people. We want it to feel different. And it and it's some of that, it's not always easy. I mean, we're we're we were heated this morning before the conversation even started because there's so much crap going on in the company right now, today. Didn't know that. Like we're we're gonna have to leave here and go kill some dragons and you know, and you know, slay them. Right because there's some there's some real stuff going on right now that's really, really tough. So don't, I don't, I don't want our listeners to think that we've got it all figured out, but we do we we did figure out culture a bit and we decided that it is worth hiring A players and keeping them on the team. The guy that's been here with us for a decade, who started as a welder or running a saw, running a CNC plasma table, whatever that is, they're they're studs and they're worth having around, and they're almost always, if they want to, being promoted into better and higher positions, which means they're getting paid more. So I want our listeners to understand that there is absolutely a future in the trades. I want them to get that.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

It is, but but one thing, one thing that I wanted to just throw into you is that um uh this is kind of a little bit back uh back off of our comments about the whole um if a if a customer, if a company, the the whole foreman problem. Yeah, if a company wants to uh you have to decide as a business owner. I have talked to a lot of business owners that I don't really think they want to grow it. Yeah, for sure. Actually, I know they don't. Is that okay? And it's fine. Is that right or wrong? That's fine. But every time I'm perfect, it's it's America, you do what you want. You can you can do whatever you want, and it's totally fine. Um, I've talked to a lot of business owners like like that the hey, you know, they're they're they're the foreman out there working on the crew, okay? And so that new customer calls your cell phone. Oh, the cell phone's probably in the truck, and and they they they might call them back or they might not. Because they look at their business as what it can do for them. Yeah. And so I'm I'm perfectly fine with that, that that thing. But when you drive through the Culver's the Culver's uh drive drive-thru just yesterday, okay, and you and you wait, and you wait and you wait and you wait and you're frustrated, or it's or or it's or or it's the dairy queen, you and you're and you're so frustrated, you say, why can't they have why can't they why can't they have more staff? Like no, no, no, no, no. You're the guy that didn't call even even call back the one customer that wanted to hire you. So you have to be okay with I mean if you did if you depend on other businesses and you wish other businesses would be uh up to this level, certain level, then then you have to either choose to take yours up there or be okay with other people being subpar or not.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

Living in that mindset you're saying. Yeah. Kyle, what were you gonna add to that? To which one? To to just what makes us special.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's along the same lines, what Darren says. It's kind of what I was what I was thinking. I also feel like like, and this is this can sound very uh, you know, prideful or whatever you want to call it, but the in the integrity that we that we operate at, I think is is is second to none. And now I could be wrong on that, uh, but I have a lot of sales guys that have given me feedback saying that other companies they've got to do. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm trying to.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

Can you repeat the the integrity core value? Uh yeah, go for it. Number four uh of our 10 core values is integrity. Uh uh, we do the right thing in every case, regardless of the cost. That's what he's referring to. And we and we we live by that.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

And so with with that, when we I I I made this commitment to every sales guy that starts uh here, uh, I'll tell them in the training process and the interview process as well, that I'll never put you in a situation that you feel like you'll have to compromise your values to to perform your job. You'll never have that happen here. I promise you. Yeah, you'll also never you'll also never never lie to a customer for me, or you'll never lie to me. Um and I it's happened. Um uh there's there's one guy that works here at PDBI, he's he's lied to a customer one time, and I told him if he ever does it again, he's fired for sure. Yeah um and and uh and he hasn't, he hasn't again. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing though lying, you know, and so we we we care about our our integrity, uh it's it's it's second, it it has to matter the most, it's paramount. And so what I'm saying that I think that customers feel that when they know that they can trust these guys and they're not going to, you know, we're not perfect, we make mistakes a hundred times. Oh, gracious yes, we're going to feel like we really screwed some guys over here and there. That's gonna feel that way sometimes, but but we the the ethics side. The ethical side of it, the moral side of it, we are not gonna compromise that. We'll do anything we can within reason to take care of the customer, make the customer feel like they've been taken care of, yeah. And uh, and especially not put our team in a position where they have to kind of you know push to the side some of you know some some moral compass. Yeah, we don't do that. So I feel like when because because we have such a high standard when it comes to that, yeah, that the employees love it, and it shows that it shows that to the customers too. It all oozes out, you know. And that's sound, like I said, that sounds super cocky. That sounds kind of like well, uh, we're gonna hire a high high standard. No, it's just it matters that much. Yeah, we have meetings all the time where we talk about what's the right thing to do here in this situation, and tricky situations come up all the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

And always core value is tested daily, like literally daily. I always have a run above my computer screen. So I sit in my computer all, you know, and I'm at my desk working when I'm there, and I look up above, uh, and it's the core values are right there. And I often look up there and go, Oh, shucks, I uh we gotta make the right call here.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

And if you're in the trades, I'm not I'm not trying to rag, Darren reg on PEs a little bit, I'm gonna rag a little bit on GCs, general contractors, okay? No. Uh often we find general contractors are the are it's almost like you have to sign this, this, this, you know, whatever you want to call it, like this decree that you're gonna you're gonna always deflect blame to whoever else but but you um as a general contractor because it it can't be my fault. I'm the GC. All the subs, they made the fault. Well, actually, you know, it can be your fault. It's not always your fault, but it can be your fault. And we, you know, it the classic thing, you know, this is not just pertaining to our industry, but all the trades, you know, you have sprinkler guys, you have uh you know, electricians, you have the erectors, you have uh the plumbing guys, concrete guys, mechanical, concrete, everything. It's hilarious that you know the GCs are supposed to make this all work together, and they're supposed to coordinate these guys here, make sure there's no obstructions that hit here and there. And when it actually comes down to it, often it's two subs out on site figuring it out together without the GC involved. But the GC, maybe the GC didn't communicate the one thing, and they'll they won't, you know. I'm just I'm giving, I have like literally lists of examples I'd give you. And it's it's kind of sad because GC is like sometimes it is your fault. Own up to it, and and the subs will probably bail you out, they'll probably give you half price on fixing that thing. If you just say, hey, I messed up here, I'd like to get this fixed. I need some help, right? I need some help. But they but it's always well, you should have sent this thing, you should have done that. Just own it. Just own it. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:07

Also, also, yeah, exactly. And and also the they you know, um often GCs often they they just you know deflect blame on on onto onto whoever, whoever, what whatever sub is below them instead of just taking responsibility, but also also just getting out of the way. I mean, if you're if you're if a if if if you can get paid and get and just stay out of the way and make to make the process more smooth by letting by letting the subs do their job.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Right. But let's also clarify, we have some really good GCs we like to work with that that that do a really good job that have integrity. We have both. They don't all but but but the the point there is is is have integrity. It's what's made PBI special, is is our core values, is our culture. Um and again, it's a daily thing. There's no cruise control, there's no there's no easy button. Every day you're wrestling, we are wrestling with how to do that and how to live that out well and how to honor God in our business every single day. So again, let's let's look full circle here. You know, I want my doctor to have a college degree, clearly, right? I want my undertaker when I die to have a college degree and actually know how to deal with that, right? Because I'm dead. So maybe it doesn't matter. But uh, maybe a bad example. But let's say my doctor, my surgeon, uh, the guy that you know did did the laser surgery in my eyes, I got I got LASIK surgery done a couple years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

Toxic account.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

Yeah, our CFO at PBIs, right? Definitely, you know, so there's there's things that absolutely matter, but we need to fill the half a million gap in in the USA today and fill those trade positions, ASAP. So if we can encourage, if we can encourage, you know, our our our listeners' kids, uh, what they're doing. Maybe maybe you have a kid that's uh that's a freshman in high school right now or a uh graduating next year, uh like my son is, my second son, uh, think about long and hard what he wants to do, what he's actually passionate about, what he actually loves doing, and and don't believe the lie that there's not a great career that can come out of joining the trades. It doesn't have to be for PBI or in the crane and manufacturing industry like we're in, but it absolutely could be somewhere in the trades, and there is a ton of jobs. And I I think I I don't know, I've been predicting this for the last couple years. I think the young men and ladies who are willing to work, to willing to get dirty, their salaries will increase at a much higher rate over the next decade as the ones who are getting a degree, and I think it's going the other direction for them. I truly believe that Braxton, the uh Braxton, how old are you, man? Braxton's 22. He's our producer here. Uh Braxton's shaking his head back here. And I feel like that's that's that's legit. It's the truth. I'm not just saying that to get people on our team. It's literally the shortage is crystal clear. And the people, the studs that come into our industry, to come into the trades that actually truly want to work, those guys are going to succeed. And we we see them every day, we see it every day. I I'm so excited about some of the young buyers we're making. So they're they're gonna they're going places.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

Well, yeah, and it's true. But one thing I was I was I sat down and and this is so I'm I've turned 40 and I so so I acknowledge that I am now old, I guess. I'm in the old category. So but um I sat down for lunch the other day and I sat down at a ram table at lunch um in our in our in our uh the bistro there and we were talking and well I sat down to talk with this I didn't know this guy he works with clarifying this is at PBY we've our own cafeteria bistro there Darren sit down and eat lunch yeah so I sat down I just sat down at a ram table with with one of the guys from the shop and from the fabrication B1 I think it was I don't know I didn't know the guy and so I sat down I'll say hey I said how how I made I made I tried to like initiate a conversation like hey like how's it going and I you look around every single person's on their phone and and and hey he sat there he like he like said hey yep that's it boom and I'm like I'm like you are missing the the but the relationship right oh my word if if you would if you would think about it you what you would do is ask me how my day is going I would ask that I well this this is called a conversation it would go back and forth okay and then we would learn more about each other and by the way the next time I'm in an executive meeting I'm saying you know I talked to Bob out there Bob he he he loves welding yeah whatever all of a sudden it could sp I mean the the way people promoted the way people are is is is is by getting to know them and you can't get to know somebody if you're staring at a phone yeah agreed people people think that that's another side note Darren but promotions is so important because we talked about it earlier with hey if you don't want to maybe do this job for the rest of your life but you can you can do it for five to ten years and maybe get promoted into something else.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

Yeah the the thing that people misunderstand about promotions I think generally speaking is they think that you know they're gonna like they're gonna earn their way or they're going to they're going to to impress their way in in certain like like I'm gonna I'm gonna get this accolade I'm gonna get this knowledge I'm gonna know this. Well in reality is you also have to be likable you have to be likable you people have to want to be with you and want to work with you. You have to you have to show that first you have to also do well at your job currently people think well if I show how good of a leader I could be then I'll be a leader. No no no you have to kill it at your at your job now because there's no way you're gonna kill it at being a leader if you can't kill it at your job now. That's right. Do that. Be likable uh uh get along with people get along with your boss well get along with the people you work around with well you're not gonna be their boss and then know how to get along with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

The people people that are out people that are out in um in production or on job and like when I I can drive through on a golf cart and and and just drive past areas in in production stuff and and no matter what it is and and you can just you just know who's busy doing the job and there's some people who are acting basically acting hey wow they're great at we're they're great at waving their hands it's like it's like hey I'm wrenching over here yeah I'm working and like and and the other guy is just it's heads down right yeah and so it's it's so so it's you can't really fake it and and and um you can't just fake it to make it yeah I always tell our team that you know and we meet every month with the with the with the entire team another culture piece that we do always tell people what's up and where we're heading every employee knows exactly where we're going as a company what we're doing uh jobs that are being sold the hiring all that there we're going we're going through all that stuff every month but but I always tell them don't do not think for a moment that you won't be seen you will be seen exactly and and like I think people think when their heads are down and and you know we we we got a classic example of of an ex-employee that was really really good at waving his hands right uh was really good at every time the boss comes around he was he was always guiding a truck in he was always directing like a symphony he was an orchestrator somehow never actually did anything but that that was that and it frustrated all of us we all saw the the fakeness at which he was producing air quotes there. So anyhow I want to I want to wrap this up here but we we love the trades. We love what we what we get to do every day is serving our customers that are also in the trades, right? And uh I want to tell any young people out there, any dads of young people out there, um fathers that are out there trying to figure out what to do for their kids, consider having your your son, your daughter join the trades, get their hands dirty because that's what we love to do every day.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:09

Thank you.