The Forge with Ryan Miller
Step into the world of industrial manufacturing through candid conversations with the leaders shaping it. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI—a leading manufacturer of cranes, mezzanines, and fall protection systems. This podcast explores what it really takes to build and grow a successful business.
Ryan shares his own journey while sitting down with fellow CEOs and team leaders to uncover the stories behind their success—the challenges they faced, the lessons they learned, and the moments that defined them.
The Forge with Ryan Miller
Episode 6 | What it Means to Hire 7 Foot Jumpers
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Hiring great people isn't about finding the most experienced candidate. It's about finding people who are willing to learn, fit your culture, and elevate everyone around them. In this episode, Ryan, Darren, and Kyle Miller discuss why they look for "7-foot jumpers". People with the potential to grow beyond what's on their résumé.
The conversation also explores what it really means to be Hungry, Humble, and Smart and why those three qualities have become the foundation of PWI's culture. Whether you're building a team or looking to become a better teammate, this episode offers practical insight into hiring, leadership, and creating an organization where the right people thrive.
The Forge With Ryan Miller is a podcast created to help develop company cultures that result in strong teams and create lasting business growth. Real conversations with business owners, manufacturers, and leaders about what it actually takes to build something. Hosted by Ryan Miller, CEO of PWI a leading manufacturer of lifting, storage, and safety systems based in Indiana.
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I had someone start in in my department and they didn't they didn't last uh they lasted about four days. He's got the wrong attitude for get every skills that he has.
SPEAKER_01Wouldn't high jump need one person who can jump seven feet, not seven people who can jump one foot. Some jobs will get done by throwing more people at them. These tasks require talent more than numbers. Be careful that there's not team players in your company, they're not seven foot jumpers, they're appearing to be. You thought they were, and they're being covered by a great team who's covering for them.
SPEAKER_00But trust me, your team knows, right? Why would we ever hire one guy for 80,000 if we could hire two for 40? That was what they were told. Such a small mindset. It's the exact opposite of seven foot jumpers, but you're thinking like a survivalist mindset. In reality, you want the good guys. If you could hire, you know, five salesmen to do two million dollars a year, or you could hire one to do $10 million every year, you're hiring the one. It's better in every single way.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's good to be back here uh with my two guests and my two brothers, my business partners, uh Darren and Kyle this morning. Glad to be back with you guys this morning. Uh a lot of emotion this morning already. We've been hammering through some other things this morning as we dive into the business and and what all is happening today in the company. A lot happening. And um, and like many of many of our listeners, uh things are busy, things are crazy. And from from most people I talk to in the trades, uh, they are busy. And so uh I think our listeners will identify with that. And you know, every day we're wrestling through uh things, the things that are hot and things that are that are important. And so uh today's no exception. Today we're talking about hiring seven-foot jumpers, and I'll talk a little bit more about what that means as we go forward. And and but but really what it is, it's about it's about bringing talent in to our company. And we worked really, really hard on the culture piece um uh over the last three or four years. But um talent and hiring is the number one thing on our minds right now. Would you guys agree with that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh I would say maybe I didn't put put but processes in front of that, but but sure, yeah, right there.
SPEAKER_01The goal of the goal of bringing good and the right people, the good, good, good team members on our team is is super important to me, and I think it is to all of us. We we see the capacity issues ahead of us, we see the fact that we have thousands and thousands of man hours sold uh to produce in in the next number of months, and it's gonna be hard to get there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we we uh we uh we need a lot more manpower. So yes, talent, you know, getting people hired in is is the number one number one thing for us. Um, you know, uh but like last week we had a um we had we had uh I had someone start in in my department and they didn't they didn't last uh they lasted about four days. Four days, nice four days. So and that wasn't even um it was just their communication and it was their it was just unfortunate, but it the true colors showed pretty quick. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So hiring uh hiring good team players has just become more and more important. Even to even I would say that we're raising the bar uh more than we even did two years ago and five years ago. We're saying what does it look like to get a players and the best team players on our team? And and today we're gonna we're gonna use the you know you you the the the uh the um the analogy raising the bar. What does that come from? It comes from high jump, and I've never even thought about that until now. So we're calling uh this high jump analogy of seven-foot jumpers. We'll dive more into that in a bit here. But that's that's what's on my mind this morning is how do we get more team players on our team? And so uh typically um uh in the past seven years or so, we've read the book uh from Pat Lancioni Ideal Team Player. Uh that's kind of been our our our our deal. We we talk about hungry, humble, and smart. So tell us a little bit, Kyle. What does Hungary mean to you? How would you describe what Hungary means to you? Uh the number, you know, core core core value number one for Pat Lancioni for a for a good team member.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Hungary is pretty easily defined in my head as somebody that brings energy. Okay, bring energy. Uh the uh some people are when you walk into the room, they are energy suckers. They just suck it right out of the room. And some people bring uh bring energy into the room. Yeah. And and everybody knows that there's always it's not just life of the party, it's uh it's about you know a common mission. You know, sure. And so when you when somebody walks into the room, I think that uh a hunger is wanting to do more, wanting to do more, go all go all out, you know, like uh people some people mailing it in, I think, is the opposite of hunger. Sure. Mailing it in, just yeah, we're doing this here, we're doing that there, and yep, that's my job. And uh hunger is I'm gonna go above, beyond, I'm gonna surprise, delight, that kind of thing. Agreed.
SPEAKER_01So the the second part of that is is humility and humble. And actually, humility is one of our 10 core values at PBY. We talk about all the time. Uh Darren, what is what does humble mean to you? And since you're maybe a good role model of humility, uh, as we discuss many times, um Darren really is the role model of humility. Um so what does that mean to you? Specifically about other team members on your think about team members on your team that truly are humble. What does that mean to you?
SPEAKER_02Um Do you have any actually? Uh team members, team members. Not as humble as me, but there's some that are close. Yeah. Um uh no, so I want to comment first on the hungry part. So like I my my my and I'll go into the humble, but the hungry part is like what I would say is it just I experienced this yesterday, like like hungry, I would say the definite how I define hungry is is seeking out ownership and not trying to not trying to sidestep away from it. It's like it's like like like when you here's a problem, and like so someone that dives in, it wants to be smarter and the smarter than you in it. And and so just even wants to like wrestle with you with it, like wants to prove you wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02That that that's great because just just the more this morning, yesterday I had a problem on a calculation that I was running, I was running into issues, so I called I called one of my team members, and I first I called some some of the other team members, and they were like, Well, hey, you know, once you get it figured out, let me know and we'll we'll go on. The the next team member I called um who's really smart too, and he he said, he said, and he he dove in, he dove in, and he, and this morning at 5 30, I got a text explaining what I did wrong in my calculation, and he he figured it all out, and and and he he because he dove in and wanted to show ownership. So the hump the humble humble part of that. Well, I always tell my team, like, so our one of our core values is be is being humble, but but I I do like a competitive nature. In other words, like like the the the the the would it's not about not about your own not your own credit, you know. But what I'm saying is though is that we want to you want to have um a a competitive uh competitiveness for the for the best person for the best answer to win. Yeah. And so so so so so if you know I'm I'm VP of Engineering, and this morning, I was, and this morning, uh one of my other team members caught a mistake I had made, and turns out the problem I thought I had wasn't as bad as I thought it was, all this stuff, but he caught something I did wrong. Sure. So so but uh but only because he was competitive enough to prove me wrong. So it's not it's not just being being humble is not all it's not about like, well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't, I don't wanna, you know rot the boat or yeah, like the the the the the the the solution has the best solution has to win. It doesn't mean you have to be arrogant afterwards, but it is okay to have a little bit of competitive edge.
SPEAKER_01Uh agreed. Uh we always say that humility is about you know not caring who gets the credit. I think Harry S. Truman said it's amazing what you can accomplish when you don't care who gets the credit. And I I think I think we for the most part, you know, us three brothers are pretty competitive. We always want to say that, you know, it was that was my idea, that was your idea. It's it's kind of fun banter that we do, but but truly, I I just don't really give a hoot. I think I think when Darren, I I really think the older I get, I'm I've been I've grown in that a little bit. My dad always told me, you don't have to win, Ryan. You don't have to win every war. And I and I and he's right. He was right. And so uh right now I'm like, Darren will bring a thing to me. He said, We're working on this year. I said, That looks stupid. I don't have the better answer, but that's not good enough. You're better than that, you're smarter than that. That that's that's not cool. Our products that our products look better than that. That's a and so Darren comes back, he and he's always frustrated, like, man, I thought I had a plan here. Comes back a day later. It's almost always better, Darren. It is so I don't care that he wasn't, I don't care that I that I that I won that war. It's just like I I I think we challenge each other when we're when we're hungry and we're driven and we're passionate to grow. So and I think it's all about it's all about Matt talks a lot about this uh on our team, but Matt's Matt's always worried about, you know, he he he's reminded me a few times in the last couple weeks. Like, what what are we serving Matt's our ops guy? Uh how are we how does this serve the customer? And so like when you're not hungry and you're not humble, the customer is the one that gets suffer that suffers. The customer gets a crappy product, uh, a less than stellar design, and it's and it doesn't get it on time, probably, when you don't have hungry and humble people. Kyle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh, yeah. I I was just thinking about uh flashback to my 10th grade uh geometry teacher, and I get into a lot of uh uh arguments with her and with other people in the in the class, and then she told me. Darren you find it hard to believe, hard to imagine. Kyle arguing stretching it. Uh one of the things that she told me too is the exact same thing, Kyle, you don't always have to be right. Yeah. Okay. And I would I told her, I said words of wisdom. I told her that I don't necessarily want to be right, I want you to prove that I'm wrong. And and I and I'm not saying it's back to kind of what Darren's saying is like I I think that people strong personalities, like we all three have very strong personalities, obviously. If anybody's ever met us, but but the thing with that is that it's I I actually love when I'm proven wrong. I actually love it. Yeah, but yeah, but I want you to prove it. And and and people that that that were closest to in the company, and even just outside of friend circles and stuff like that, it's it's very fun to go at it and and and figure out and get to the bottom of something. Uh people that just lay over, kind of I just they just flop over and and and say, yeah, I guess well you're gonna win because you're well we're debating here. We're yeah, we're getting to the best solution. If we all just say, oh, the first the first time, the first thing you said is the is the correct answer, that's bad. Yeah, no one won. The customer for sure didn't win.
SPEAKER_01Example of that, I I I I could give you a lot of examples, uh, both at the PBUI here and boards I've served on where I where I went in 100% convinced I was right. And one of those one of those examples is last November at our at our three-day offsite. I I was pretty convinced um that we needed a new corporate office and we needed it like as as early as this year. And so this is back last fall. I went in there, we we spent time and energy to present this this thing, and Darren Kyle had not even seen this yet. But it was a probably a five million dollar uh uh office expansion uh with a customer experience center, which we all want to do. We want to do this. But I went in there saying uh we're out of office space, and we are, and we are and we were, and we've made temporary solutions between then and now to to uh take care of that. But but but the whole whole goal was there is we I did a really, really nice presentation. Uh uh we had architect involved, it was beautiful. I was super jacked about it. And unanimously, the entire team was against me. They all said really against the timing, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, against the timing, sure. They were like, they were like, and and by the time that I heard you guys all out and the other seven team members around the table, I knew you were right. I knew I knew I knew that it was too early. And and and and I and I honestly felt great about it. I I I knew that the right idea had won. And had we not, had you guys not spoken up, you know, right, we had we would not have 80,000 square foot going up vertical in a few weeks now. Right, you know, the porn concrete. Uh, it's it's happening. And so um the right uh the right idea must win. It takes and it takes humility, it takes hunger to get there.
SPEAKER_02I agree with that 100%. Lately when I'm when I'm with my team and we're we're we're discussing if it's a you just last week I was talking about a part numbering system and how it's gonna work with different different components and receiving versus you know uh versus you know final unique part numbers, all all this just just system stuff. And and and and if if there's no back and forth, like like I'm I'll go to the Kyle 100. I'm gonna I'm gonna fight my way the whole way. And I need guys to fight back. Yeah, because if if there's just like, well, yeah. Then you you you literally did not shake it down to to to to share them.
SPEAKER_01I think there's a point where we fail as as the way that we're made up as 99.99 DIs on the disc profile is that we fight too long too hard. Sometimes sometimes, sometimes it's hey, it's over. Uh they're right. Let it go. Let's let's let's let it go. And that's also takes humility to say, I I don't need to win. I maybe you guys are right. Maybe maybe my idea is lame, maybe, maybe your idea is better than mine, whatever. And so and I know that the wrestling is important, but after, you know, after 37 minutes of it, it probably is time to stop. Second hour you probably put. Sure. Second hour is probably too much. The third part of what Pat Lits you and talks about in the ideal team player is so it's hungry, humble, and then it's smart. And smart, I've always wrestled with the word smart. What what is what does he mean? And and and he explains it well in the book, but what does that mean to to our listeners, to us uh in the in the company here? And I though I think the way I explain it is just somebody who's who's emotionally um good with people, with he's self-aware, he's able to connect and communicate with other people. Uh he's smart with how he deals with customers and vendors and employees and and and in all that. How how what do you guys want to add to that? How does that does that is that a good definition to you guys? When you guys think of somebody who's smart as a team player, what does that look like to you guys? Darren?
SPEAKER_02It varies. It it really varies to me depending on the position. Like, like I mean, so like to me, like a smart engineer, you know, is gonna have different uh is gonna have a lot of different character characteristics than a smart salesman. You know, a smart I'm just saying, like, you know, so when I I've sat in lots of uh teens meetings with with engineers and with our sales guys and and and different things, and like and I've seen good and definitely have seen bad. This is not uh of I mean, so a smart salesman is gonna know when to talk. Yeah a smart salesman is gonna know when to fill in and when to and and to when to just to people just want to hear you talk. Now, engineers are kind of um engineers are kind of you know it it's it's pretty pretty well known, widely known that engineers are just kind of different characters, get different, different lack, lack personalities in the world. Yeah, they can't. They can't, they can't, but but a smart salesman is gonna use words. They want to but people, you know, and often often customers are have already seen approval drawings, they're already, they're just this meeting, this this last meeting is just kind of the they're just trying to just to see what is PDBI about, what what are you guys doing? And if you say no words, they're not learning anything more about you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And those that team, those two members work for Kyle. Kyle's been working with his team to to uh to to make to to get that to happen. It's kind of crazy. We have a lot of great ones too, it's not. We've agreed we've we've we've great team members, but there is are some of our sales guys that could probably use a few more words than they do. And Kyle tries to pair them up often, you know, in in in the right scenarios to have, you know, if there's a more of a bit of a soft spoken salesperson who's more of an account manager who's just serving the customer and we're trying to close a big deal. Sometimes you need somebody to say a few more words than that. Is that right? Is that right, Kyle?
SPEAKER_02And also, also engineering, uh engineering is too. I mean, like there's a lot of times when when it's clearly an engineering question, okay. Like, like, hey, is this you know, is this runway deflection correct? Well, that's clearly an engineering uh question. Yeah, and so and so they're looking for a a two-minute, two-minute make me feel good. And and the engineer says, yeah, it's correct. That that that does not come that does not communicate any confidence.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, agreed. There's there's there's so much to yeah, talking and and instilling confidence and that kind of thing. But we're talking about being smart, right? Yeah in general. You know, I yeah, Darren said it's true. It's it's very different for different positions, very different, drastically. Uh, but you know, I think that people I one thing that I think you know, some people struggle in is always bringing their A game and like what they can actually do. They're they're you know, and some of that is is limited by leaders, you know, like like like you know, I think that's probably one thing that we all struggle in pretty bad is letting our guys like flourish, like go full tilt, like you know, like so like if they if because we're worried that they don't totally have it figured out, they we kind of cap them sometimes on on what they can do. Where if we said, Hey, uh, you know, this is your baby, it's completely on you, have fun. That they might do a better job. You know what I mean? Sure. Um, and always some of our leaders are control freaks a bit. I was talking about us three. Us three, just just kind of like not letting people go fully. And it it's it's because there's that there's a lack of trust, you know, or confidence in it getting done, right? But what I think is what I think is smart people, smart players, okay, are going to bring their A-level game every day and they're gonna show, they're gonna show that their boss, their leader, whoever, they're gonna show them that they can be trusted. And they're gonna be they you can you can count on me. Yeah, this is gonna happen. Like dependability, I think, kind of goes into the smart category too.
SPEAKER_01This this segues right into the to the seven foot jumpers that we're that we're referring to now, Kyle. I I think that's a great segue to where we're going. And so Braxton, did you did you have do any research at all on the on on the Olympic high jump, um uh Olympic high jump, you know, what what the what the what the um if you could find that in the meantime, yell it out when you find it. But basically, uh Olympic high jumps are really big deal, and you watch those guys jump, it's absolutely incredible how high, I mean, they're just they're just humans, they're just dudes that are jumping up in the air and and crossing, uh, but it's somewhere around the seven-foot mark, which is 84 inches. You know, imagine you know, jumping over your head a foot, you know, right? And so it's absolutely incredible. So, but we uh just recently I I I got introduced to this idea from John Maxwell last year, and just it's it's an incredible analogy of just what it looks like to be a seven-foot jumper. There it is. Thanks, thanks, but Braxton. So the men's Olympic record is by Charles Austin, which is a USA guy, which is seven foot ten inches. So we call it seven foot jumpers. We should really just change it to an eight-foot jumper now. Uh, and that was in '96 of the Atlanta Games. So thank you for finding that. That's great. So you picture, so now, you know, I'm I'm not tall, I'm six foot approximately, and so now it's almost two foot above my head. Kyle, like four foot above your head, right? So yeah, sure. Uh so I think an inch taller than me. So um, so so essentially I I want to dive into the seven foot jumper analogy now, and and talking about what it what a seven-foot jumper looks like. So I was just I was just blown away by this analogy. And and and the I'm gonna read this, I'm just gonna read this verbatim here so I get this right. But here here's here's basically the the rule that that uh that Maxwell talked about last year at an event I was at, and and just really kind of brought this back to our team. We're using this heavily now in our language. But but to win at high jump, you need one person who could jump seven feet, not seven people who can jump one foot. Some jobs won't get done by throwing more people at them. These tasks require talent more than numbers. The high jump rule requires the extraordinary talent of one person, not the media or talent of many. And so I I uh I just you know, mic dropped there when I first heard that. I was like, that that is so true. And so I want to I want to tie this together with our ideal team player uh thing. And so we we we've all seen team members in the past who are team, team, team, team, team. Okay. And and in fact, they're not doing anything, they're not doing jack squat themselves. It's all about team. A team, our team is killing it, our team's crushing it. And and they're they're really the people that talk about the team the most are the ones who are just along for the ride at times. It's team. They love to collaborate. They love to collaborate and let's get all get together and we'll we'll we'll we'll figure this out as a team. And you know what the real studs do? They just freaking go jump over the pole. That's what they the the bars at seven foot ten, they just freaking jump over it. Do it. And those are the guys, Cal, you're talking, those are the guys they can trust. So, so when you're not a seven-foot jumper, I I can't really trust you to say, go buy all that steel, go buy those hoists, go whatever it is. Go, hey, go meet and hire 10 new new team members because I trust you to do a good job to hire whatever that you know, there's there's positions all over the company, you know, that that are happening every day. So let's talk about that for a minute here. The difference between a really good team player and then individual studs who are killing it, who we're not calling seven-foot jumpers. Kyle, take it, take it from there for a minute.
SPEAKER_00Well, I would I would think back of two different examples I'll give from the uh local RV industry. Okay. And there's and there's two, there's yeah, two examples are very similar to each other. One was um uh a company that no longer exists, uh, but just uh uh uh I don't want to say any names, but basically uh they they had made an example that one their one plant, they could run these units, and they were running the exact same units at a at a plant in Elkart, and they were running the exact same units in a plant in Lagrange. Okay, and both of those are cities in in um in in Indiana here. And they said that the exact same unit running down the line would take them half the time in la and man labor hours in Lagrange versus Elkart, and the quality was better in Lagrange. Wow. Uh being being being running out twice as fast. And and uh and so so what's crazy about that is is it's like it's like obviously you take that plant because there's less people there and they're working, they're pumping out more units at better quality. It's not even a thought, right? But those guys also should get paid a lot more, and they are, you know, because they're getting paid peace rate and all that stuff. Okay, second example, it's another company that's let's local to us that got uh that was a private company and got purchased by a publicly traded company. Okay, and one of the comments that were made during that transition period when this public traded, big big dog company came in and told everybody in this, in this uh, you know, privately held company uh how to do their jobs and whatever, one of the comments that was made was just so funny um was uh they had a lot of guys that are making 80,000 a year. Okay. And these guys And they couldn't f they didn't have enough of them. Okay. And then one of the comments that the big corporation made was why would we ever hire one guy for 80,000 if we could hire two for 40? And and it was such a small mindset. It's the exact opposite of several jumper's thinking. You're thinking like a survivalist mindset where you're like, if I can just squeeze, what if those guys do a little bit better? In reality, you want the good guys. You want anybody everybody knows that if you hire if you could hire, you know, five salesmen to do to do $2 million a year, or you could hire one to do $10 million every year, you're hiring the one. It's better in every single way. But that's what I think of. I think of people, I think of people that are going to set the bar. If that person that's making $80,000 is running around, he's gonna and he's going to attract other people that are running around. You you drag the whole company down by low performers. Yeah, you do. And uh and you and it sets that bar extremely low. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Darren, you want to add anything to that at all?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just want to say like like it's not it's not like um the whole seven foot jumper thing. It's it's not like you know, we're talking about uh only you know the top-tier salesman or the the most experienced engineer or the most you know experienced you know executive or or or something like that. It it can be it can be at any any trade level. It's not I mean it's it's not necessarily where you're at in a in a in in in your company or or you can be a Sappa jumper um and be a plumber and you're out on the and you're and you're not even the foreman. You're not even the foreman necessarily.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02100%. Like there's there's guys, there's there's there's it's it does not mean a seven jumper does not mean you have the most people underneath you and you're the best manager. Some some septic jumpers are the best plumber, and they can they can get more pipe installed in one day, or they can run more, you know, you know, run more electrical, you know, yeah uh lines, conduits, and they just they just own it and kill it. Yeah, and and that goes to promoting people out of their out of their uh um promote people out of their uh up into their incompetency. Yes. So so it's it doesn't mean it doesn't necessarily mean how many people you have working for you. It's about how much you're getting done in the role that you're in. Yeah, currently.
SPEAKER_01I would say it's it's it's leadership because you're exemplifying. You are people are following you. If you're self-jummer, people are following you. Maybe not in role or in title, but it's but it's absolutely people are looking to you saying, man, I he's he's the best. Like he's the best welder we have, he's the best conduit runner that we have. He's the best, you know, he's the best maintenance guy who's fixing lights. This morning I was in here in the studio and they were they were running, you know, Cat 6 cable down into the studio for a better connection in the studio. That all happened this morning. They're good. You know, uh Jerry and and uh his helper were here, can't remember his name, and they were you know fixing up and helping helping Braxton, the producer over here, get uh better connection to his computer. Uh they're seven-foot jumpers. And so so, you know, the other the other thing that gets used is is the difference between A and B and C players, and uh that that's kind of thrown out there a lot, you know. So so I I'm we're calling a seven foot jumper an A player, right? A person who's who's worthy of following. And we give we give Team Spirit awards to our team members who who who display this kind of this kind of you know, these values, uh, you know, humility and integrity and uh and a sense of urgency as they're working. Uh so that's that's what I look at as a seven-foot jumper. And I and I like the idea, I guess um what the the big the big in my head, the big explosion in my head was just this idea that you know you literally cannot win. Like that's probably the big thing for me, that you literally cannot win um the Olympics um with seven guys who can jump one foot. You j like you can't do it. Like there is some jobs that just cannot be done. And I and I'm I'm shifting a bit and saying I would argue I have some questions for you guys to ask you guys here, but I I I would argue that that most jobs, I'm I'm flipping to like I think it's more like most jobs. Like, like why do you want a C player out there who is taking the level down? Why do you want a C player out there who's just surviving? He's just keeping his job, uh, who's depending on the team to support him and make him look good. And at the end of the day, hey, good job team. We're all a team. And so uh, you know, there's a team spirit, but how much better would it be if all of those were jumping seven to eight feet? Uh, you know, and so I don't I don't know what if I'm asking for too much, maybe I am, but I but I um I I'll start with the question to to Darren here on this one here. But what what keeps what keeps a B player in your mind? Like what what keeps a B player from becoming an A player to you?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's your I I always tell when I'm when I'm hiring people, I always say, I don't hire you on what you know, I hire you on your ability to learn. Are you a dry sponge or are you a wet sponge? Sure. And so and so if you're you you know a dry sponge is just soaking up everything you can and just taking it all in and and and and and just just just trying to learn as fast as he can. A wet sponge is like, what do I have to do to do the bare minimum to get my job done? So I think development of uh a uh employee development is huge. I mean, obviously we do that, we will focus on that a lot. So can a B player go to an A? Yes, it can, but after year three, probably not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Kyle, uh what are the biggest weaknesses in your mind from someone uh becoming a seven-foot jumper, as we call it now? Um or you could say a B uh a B to an A. But what what what are the biggest weaknesses? What like what are things that you see glaring in their in in who they are as people, uh as team members? Uh either at at PBY, at things you've seen around in your travels. Like what what is what's the biggest weaknesses you see?
SPEAKER_00I'll I'll start by saying like I think that another thing that's really important it's not what not not to answer the question right off the bat. What's also really important is is seven foot jumpers, why why they're amazing is because they elevate the people around them. And we said that kind of before, but one thing I I just put in, I gave I got two managers, two sales managers below me, Cal and Tyler, they do a great job. They uh they I told I told them, I gave them a list of of like like hiring and training guidelines, and just recently, about six months ago, I realized what was happening is when we kind of had guys uh uh new guys hired, and then we'd have them shadow somebody else, okay? And we just kind of picked the most open guy, go shadow that guy, okay? Yeah, and and it was causing some serious problems because people were modeling what they thought was the way to do it, and it was kind of a you know, not the best way. A B or C level Yeah, it wasn't bad, it was just not the not the way we do it, the way we were supposed to do things, and kind of an old old school thought of how to do things, whatever. And and so we made a rule said you will only we will only have people shadow, we would only have people shadow like the best people in the department. So like maybe uh you know, the top 10%, top 10 or 20% of the of the department is the only people that are allowed to be shadowed. You can't shadow a midi a medium level player. And and so when you when you're when you're training, you're gonna watch the best guy do it. And to have and you need to have best guys to be able to do that, right? And so what I'm saying is I don't think I think people leaders generally they are they are worried about saying that, like, well, if I say this guy's the best guy, or he's doing it exactly the way he wanted to do it, that's kind of a problem because you'll make the other guys feel bad. No, no, no. You have to raise them up. Yeah, you just say these this is how we want it actually done. You see Bob over here, Bob's killing it. Yeah, Bob's killing it. You say, you know, you praise publicly and you and you and you, you know, critique in private, but you you is so important for other people to know that the leaders think this is the way we want it done. And and so anyway, that and then what was your question again? I wanted to say that. Let me just throw in there.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I'll I'll get there. Um, but I I just want to say again, make sure uh to our listeners here in our audience that that you are you are that you are um making a big deal about that. We we we every five times a year we give out a Team Spirit Award. And we're not hiding that. It's it's on the freaking wall. I mean, every time you go through the up to production plant from from the bistro to production, there is, I don't know, there's 30 plaques on the wall with the with their photo there, and they get $1,000 cash, uh, they get $100 to our cafeteria or to our bistro. Like it's like we make a big deal about it, and we say, because that's the guy that what we want you all to follow. He's we look at the core values, we're saying, this is it. He's he's a stud, he's freaking killing it, follow him. And so, like, don't don't shy away. I don't think we do shy away from that. So I'm not sure where that theory came from in your department, but I don't know that we've ever felt that. We we we celebrate the people who are doing it well. And and if that makes some other people feel a little less than suck it up, buttercup. You know, that's that's how it is. It should be motivation for that. Yeah, 100%. So my question for you is like, what when what what are the biggest weaknesses, Kyle? Uh that that like like like character traits, weaknesses that are keeping somebody from c becoming, you know, an A player or or a seven-foot jumper, as we're talking about. What what is what's a weakness that you see like they just don't get this or that or whatever that is? What are some things you see?
SPEAKER_00I I I think I mean I'm just talking off kind of off of you know my department and that kind of thing, but I think sometimes it's a little bit of commitment, you know, uh commitment to their job. Maybe this is like you know, maybe this is a job that I'll do for a couple of years and I'll go see if something else better comes up and whatever. And you know, I I can never get to this level, or I can never, you know, get a raise, or I can never get a new promotion or whatever because because this is just where I'm at, and they kind of just they just kind of maintain, you know what I mean. And I think that the best the what what usually is keeping A players or B players from becoming A's is them asking for one, the A's how to do how to get there. That's good. And they're and they're leaders. So like it's it's it's so you know, the the leaders can often see it's so funny. I talk to guys all the time. I say, say it's so easy to see when you're not in it. Like if you're when you're a leader, you you're blind to lots of things, but one thing you can see is who's doing well, who's not, you know? It it just kind of becomes clear because you it you can see all the inside you know conversations, you just know what's going on. You say, wow, this guy's doing well, this guy's not. Sometimes you miss that, sometimes you don't have a perfect lens to do that. But but what I'm trying to say is what I'm trying to say is it's crazy what what a little bit of humility, being humble here, you know, in this humble, hungry, smart, coming going up to an A level is like, hey, how'd you do it that well? Like you walked into the room, you you know, I watched you, I was shadowing you, you walked in there, you said this, you said that. How did you know that stuff? And how do you how do you go about that? What can I do better? Can I sit in your office and listen for an hour with you on a phone call just to just kind of hear what you're doing? You know what's crazy? There's there's not one sales manager or leader anywhere that would stop their guys from trying to learn from somebody better than them, ever. But people, but people are people are scared to ask that. But people are scared to do that. Is that a lot of humility? Um yeah, oh, because I'm I'm but then I'm saying this guy actually does better than me because everybody, even a fool is right in their own mind, you know, as the Bible says, it's like it's like you're always gonna think I know a way to bet, you know, I know the best way to do it.
SPEAKER_01And um, you know, and yet this guy's numbers over here and his customer satisfaction, whatever, is far exceeding the it's sometimes how are we that blind, right?
SPEAKER_02It's not it's not it's not always it's not always that like the the the the guy you're talking about is is the smartest. What you're saying is he's he's he's humble enough to know his limitations and try to try to learn like to try to learn like yeah, how do how do I how many times have we seen guys I mean I'm I'm just I'm just literally this is company by buying right now.
SPEAKER_01Just this idea that how many team players do we have on our team right now who are who are seven foot jumpers who weren't, and they made it from possibly even a C to a B and a B to an A. Like like a lot. A lot of guys that have been there for a decade or more, and and and even shorter, where they just rose to the top. I mean I'd say probably across the departments. We're like like we're three years ago, we were like, I don't know if he's gonna make it around the corner, and and all of a sudden we're like he like it's almost like they woke up. And I was talking about I'll just use Adam's story. Adam's our uh uh not VP, he's uh director of manufacturing, director of production.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny. Yesterday I literally called him VP of production by accident.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Watch it, watch your mouth there. No, yeah, we're we're titles aren't a huge deal, but uh director of production. The director of production. And but Adam started as a kid, I'm run out of high school, and in and he wasn't the most motivated. He did not have a sense of urgency. He would have not won a Team Spirit Award in the first three, four, or five years. Never. He's like he's been there for 17 years now, whatever it is now.
SPEAKER_00Almost struggled to keep his job. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Almost probably almost lost his job, had some had some life problems going on. So, Adam, we're talking about you right now, but it's it's okay. Adam's good and what a story. A man of God, he's a leader in his home, his family, made some massive changes in in that area of his life, and just woke up one day, decided, I need this job. Uh, what happens if I think I think what he says is like he woke up one day and decided, I kind of need this job to feed my family. Uh and what if, what if I think if we actually like if I work hard, we can then go home and we're done. Like, like just like this revelation in his mind, like back in the day. Back in the day. Right. And so what Adam, what Adam became respected. People started following him, and and he became a seven-foot jumper and is now leading, uh, leading a large, large team. So um really, really, really happy to have Adam on the team. And and we and again, not calling out him only, but I just thought about him. Maybe I would call him most improved. I mean, I I think I would happily, happily give him that award. I think he would receive that. But this that's that's what's in my mind. And just and so I I'm wondering about um, is there's I'll just open to any of you guys here. I'm not I'm not just I'm not sure if there's a good answer to this, but I'm gonna throw it out here anyhow. Is there is there jobs, what what are a few things that only um a seven-foot jumper can do? Like, what are some things that that like man, I I I can live with some B players in here, they're just laying down well, they're just doing CAD work, they're just answering the phone, which which is sad. I think Dave Ramsey would probably, you know, you know, get completely jacked up when I say that, because he he he he he speaks very, very highly against that. He wants everybody, and so I'm asking maybe an obvious question, but I'm asking like, is there is there some things that are not negotiable? Like you need a seven-foot jumper to do X. Is there anything that comes to your mind in our company right now uh or in in the trades in general that you have to be at that level to do this? Any any thoughts?
SPEAKER_02There's there's there's people that I call when I want to uh validate an idea or um or or or or double check something. Sure. There's definitely people I don't call. Sure.
SPEAKER_01That's fair. That's fair. I was thinking about um uh like when the details really really matter, when when uh uh you're we Darren has got some drawing checkers on his on his team, and and an example of that is is is man, he's got 20 plus engineers on his team that are drawing stuff, and so we would trust, we need to trust that the person who's going through it, you know, has the last look before it goes to production, which is Cole does a fantastic job, yeah, and he catches catches my mistakes.
SPEAKER_00So also very tedious job. So it takes it takes like to have that kind of commitment to keep on going the whole time because it it's to some it'd be very hard for me to do that. I don't think I could do that job. Uh some people are just gifted in different ways that way. Yeah, and he is. But it it but you know you were talking about seven footers, right? You know, I think I think the most important thing uh for for no, you know, we were talking about we we just recently made uh a hire in sales that we're we're excited about. Um comes with a lot of experience and and um and he's and he's gonna join the team here in a couple weeks. And uh very excited about it. He he comes from a significantly larger company, sure. And he has a lot more experience than me in in sales, uh significant amount more experience. And and it's it's almost intimidating, you know, uh to have somebody come in and and and but what I actually I told my sales managers, I said, I said, you know, he's going to he's gonna be on the team, he's gonna just kind of sit and and digest what's going on and and breathe in and and and feel the the culture, that kind of thing. Um he also said he wants to go out in the shop and weld for a couple weeks, which I thought was kind of cool. He won't he can't wait to do it actually. And um, and I said, Yeah, it's great, it's awesome. Said, I want to learn from you. I want to learn, I want to learn the things that you know that are good. And then I also want to keep the things that I think that make PDBI sales good. And and I want to learn both. I want I want to actually, that's I'm ex so I'm actually getting very excited about it. So I'm like, I just want to, I just want to, I want you to see what's you know wrong. But but all of that comes with people that are that have that over over time have plugged in, have gone the extra mile, have done this, you know, and there's guys, guys like that all over the cut uh all over the company. I can think of people that have come in over the years that have elevated their department. 100% and and you know, maybe like you know, things like like weld quality and that kind of stuff, you know. Like we grew up, we're farm welders here. We just kind of slapped some welders to call it.
SPEAKER_02I was there always I was always better than a farmer welder. I mean, far the farmers that weld, God bless you, you try, not the best.
SPEAKER_00But I was saying is you know, you know, like it's just different. You know, I remember when I was 16 years old, and uh Ryan told me there's a uh Clunet elevator, it's a little uh grain elevator down here. Um it's not little, it's big. And and there's a leak on some stainless tank down there. And Ryan said, Ah, Kyle, you know how to weld stainless tank? I sent you. And you said, uh I got grabbed a stick welder and cruised down on a service truck at 16 and ground out a one little weld in the uh uh that was leaking a little pinhole leak and rolled. Turns out it was a fuel tank. Yeah, exactly. And weld this thing here, you know. But it's like kind of like in that mode. That's where Kyle's a little different than the rest of us. That's why he's got he's got no hair, and and yeah, that was a bad day. Anyway, but I was saying is like, you know, we we kind of just kind of, yeah, we that's good enough. It's good enough. Well, we had guys come in that had a tremendous I'm thinking, I think of Aero or something like that. The guys that came in and no weld quality stuff, no, no processes and procedures for welds, way better than any three of us do. And it's awesome.
SPEAKER_01It's awesome. It's great, they raised the bar, right? Yeah. But look that I'm not gonna see that word. That literally hit me last night. We say raise the bar all the time. I never put that together until last night, getting ready for the for the day. And I was thinking, man, that's really that's like that's literally what it is. And so A A Ro and others like him, and even Matt bringing in um um Air Gas, which is our new uh national supplier uh uh and and great people, they have raised the bar on on welding wire, on on deposition rates, uh trust me, the procedures, all those things are a really big deal, and things that we didn't pay enough attention to even two years ago.
SPEAKER_02Well, we needed we needed more, we just need more guidance and and more and more just more help and and and training and stuff.
SPEAKER_01The more the more engineered items we build, the more the more important the weld that's the welds have gotten, right?
SPEAKER_00So the other thing I'd mentioned too, though, this is this is maybe as for companies that are growing, they're in the process of growing. I was talking to another business owner yesterday about this kind of stuff, and and we were talking about, you know, there's different levels to it. There's different, you know, what seems hard now if you're if you're a three-man shop is way different. What 20 person, 50 person, 100 person, whatever. It it gets in and right now, somebody's out there, you know, some CEO of a thousand employee companies just looking at our company and saying, oh my goodness, your problems are so easy. Just do this, do this, and this, you're done, you know. But but the the what I thought one of the big things for us was I think around right around 65 to 70 employees is when we decided that we need a a fully a fully dedicated uh, I mean sorry, full-time HR person. And it might sound crazy because there's a lot of 10 employee companies that have or 15 employee companies that have HR people, okay? But we we had kind of had that as a part-time job for somebody to do and half this guy's role, half that guy's role. And it just never really worked. And when I remember, that was a that was a mistake on our part. It was a massive mistake. But we said, you know what, we're gonna hire a full-time HR person. That's all they're gonna do. Yeah, and and it was so scary because it's just straight overhead. It's like, what is this person actually adding? Come on, they're not they're not making, they're not, they're not welding, they're not installing, they're not doing, they're not drawing things, they're not selling things, they're just managing our people. But how about how about bringing in seven-foot jumpers? I mean, that's what that's what they're really doing. It looks like an additional overhead expense. Oh man, you know, oh, it's the wrong way to think about it. Now, there are those hires that can be made by accident that are that are too much overhead and not that level of a company yet. That can happen too. Yeah, but it was crazy, crazy, crazy how wrong I was in my head about like, are we really ready for a HR? It made me think, man, we are stupid for not having an HR person at 40 employees. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just we well, we probably would have grown faster had we had better talent coming in today. That team is three or four people now. And we just hired a uh a talent. But again, that whole that team as a whole, they all work towards hiring, bringing in and maintaining good good team members, right? So it's uh it's huge. It is it's well, it's actually it's everything. I mean, we we we would not have a business without without great team members. And so the kind of the goal for today was to kind of kind of talk about what it looks to hire good team members, but also it's also making sure that you're thinking big enough. I want I want the people in the trades, the guys who are out there uh you know, scared to death of hiring somebody for 75 grand a year, or or whatever that numbers. Maybe it's maybe it's your first six-figure hire, whatever that is, freaking out about it. Well, I I'm I'm saying whatever that is, whatever wherever you're struggling at, wherever you're stuck at, okay? Um it it's worth it. Bringing in seven-foot jumpers who truly can on their own jump over the bar and other people start following with saying, I want to be like Bob or Jim. But only it's huge.
SPEAKER_02But only hire you know, so I you know, if you're if you're interviewing a uh a seven foot jumper, he's got the skill set, he's got everything, and he's gonna and he's going to be a uh a leader, he's gonna be a foreman for you, and he and he he's he's making well over six figures, okay? That's what he needs to get and you're considering him. And he's got I mean he he has got experience he's he's 38 years old or and he's got a long you know he he he he's the perfect fit but his attitude is kind of cocky and sucks then don't hire him yeah but it does not just just because his just because all of his all the things check off but if if he does not fit your culture and he's got a little bit of arrogance to him and but you're thinking well but but he's so good he knows how to he knows how to do he he's so good like if he does if he's got the wrong attitude forget every skill set he has that's a really good point I we we didn't hit that at all Darren thanks for saying that I like like we were we're here kind of saying yeah Pat Lancioni great stuff we want seven foot jumpers you need you cannot have a seven foot jumper who doesn't follow the the values of hunger hunger humility and and being smart around people so it's it's a non-negotiable yeah uh a a poisonous seven foot jumper is still poisonous I'd I'd much rather have a five and a half or six foot jumper with a good attitude than a seven foot jumper that is a is a poison to the whole team and is arrogant and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00There's also a lot of pretend seven-foot jumpers too out there. There are and they explain you gotta explain that. Well people that have all the right accolades and and and and you can and you and had this pedigree this this PhD wherever that can talk big game and all that kind of stuff and I've seen those types of people straight up ruin companies I mean really really bad they come in and they think they know everything they think they can change this they know this they know this and you just watch the whole culture fall apart the values fall apart their mission is is is is like you know sidetracked and whatever they don't they don't they don't get it but but because they had the knew the right people were connected to the right people they jump in and they have the right letters behind their name yeah so so exactly so with that you just gotta be careful as leaders when you hire when you hire your proposed seven foot jumper make sure that you guys are still aligned on the big things that's right make sure you're aligned on values and mission I would say are two are two main things I want to you need to agree on the main big mission if you don't agree on the main big mission for us one of our big missions it is is direct to consumer right yeah so if I had to hire a sales guy that was eh kind of halfway on direct to consumer and then he over the course of the next two years tries to push us to not go direct to consumer and consumer just to clarify that to our to our listeners consumer is it's B2B for us so consumer we don't mean the homeowner we mean we mean the other business who's needing our services directly not going through a dealer or reseller network just to be clear when people say consumers they're thinking you know you know you know every house in town that we're not houses and consumer cranes so it was just yeah I want to make clear make that clear I just I just I just think it's very very important that you we're still aligned on the big things and then how to get there is open to to uh to you know whatever critique I like that Kyle the the the the other thing I thought about when you were saying that is is the other the other version of a fake seven foot jumper is somebody who's got all those accolades all those all those letters behind their name and and this great resume that's just so impressive is they come in and they may not even be arrogant they may actually um be hungry humble and smart you know what they do they don't get crap done they just do not get stuff done they say all the right things they they huddle around in meetings they they're they're literally that they're they could be a seven foot jumper they have the knowledge to do so and at the end of the day they just don't get the work done and they're like well yeah I there's always this excuse well I had him do it or I asked her to do it oh she didn't get back oh I'm so sorry there's always confusion and wrestling instead of just getting it done well it's it's it's such a big deal I 100% a lot we've seen that a lot I I agree with you 1000% on that getting it done has a it'll hold a lot of value and it's sets you apart 100% so one one one one story I I remember uh recently it was during cov uh 2001 or or somewhere in that range maybe maybe maybe it was oh two um or 2022 I'm not sure but we had a customer a local customer um because of the shortages because of because of COVID and because of everything that this company started producing things in Bristol I'm not gonna say who it was and we did this job for them it's a very complicated job that we did it's very and and and it and it actually actually turned out really good and of course they shut the whole plant down then and and they're back to importing now but the point is I remember walking in well but they paid their bill and they get paid yeah but but the thing is we walked into that meeting I remember walking in that meeting it was a huge conference room there was three or four people from from from our company PDBI and there was quite a few from them and the air that the the the the the the whole atmosphere in the boardroom and in that was was of of arrogance of extreme arrogance like the automotive the automotive industry it wasn't automotive but every automotive person I work with has that same air okay sure and God bless you if you're in the industry and you're not that way I'd love to meet you and and uh make sure you're real but no so I I it's just the whole the whole thing the whole thing was just like you you are here you are and so we're we're you're not you're in our world now yeah yeah and and and and we're talking about a completely unique product to their application so so we're so we're so we're going through this process and they're talking about and and I just and I I just I just kind of like like when I didn't know something I I am I love doing this when I don't know something I'll ask hey what does that mean yeah and the whole room is like well you should know what the the B46 line is or the or the or the furnace I'm like I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I said what does it mean? They're like and and then and then and then I point out I I bring the things down to normal to normalcy normal speak normal speak and all of a sudden realize that not everyone in the room totally understands what I'm talking about too when we're talking about my product and it's just it it that that whole thing is that people people that just want to act and sound cocky smart and and and like they know everything but really they don't know everything but they're just too too arrogant to not say that. And every time that I've I've done that every time I've done that it just it and and um I I've every time I've said hey I don't know what that means can you explain that to me it does not make you look dumb.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I I I agree with you I because because I think auth authentic authenticity always wins I think what you just and and and about the values of the forge here the podcast is just is just being raw and authentic and and and let's just be who we are. I think I think at the end of the day that's what wins it wins with customers it wins it wins with team members and when when that's how that's who seven foot jumpers are as well they're they're saying hey boss how do I learn how do I win it what what does winning look like here and they go freaking get it done they do it. So the the uh the goal the goal for me today was was was to identify Pat Lancioni's ideal team player and then connect that to the seven foot jumper analogy that we're now using but and just realizing having our listeners maybe understand a bit more that but be careful that there's not team players in your company that are that are that are that are masked uh they're not seven foot jumpers they're appearing to be you thought they were and they're being covered their butts are being covered by a great team who's covering for them. Well trust me your team knows right the team members know look around ask questions and listen to your team members usually what happens is when you terminate somebody you and you release them in Jesus' name uh to to to somewhere to go work somewhere else um there's a sigh of relief in the room everybody else like uh the idiot boss finally gets it i you know for for for years i you know i i thought he thought he was a seven foot jumper stud and and i just i want if you're if you're not leading in a company and you're just listening here you're just running conduit today that's what you're doing you're in the trades you're just framing a house today um you're just welding the beam today be assured that your boss your supervisor sees you you are seen you are noticed I I don't know any good supervisor who doesn't look around through his team and say he's a stud he's a seven foot jumper he not so much and and you can see the fake this you can see uh the guys that put their helmet down and just freaking get it done yeah they're they're it and so it we'll make it very very clear seven foot jumper has nothing to do with your role nothing to do with your title nothing to do with status it is has all to do with you doing what you're called to do by God but called to do by your supervisor but by the person people who hired you to get the job done.
SPEAKER_00So yeah makes sense I also want to add one more note I think that you know we kind of talked a lot about seven foot jumpers outside the company bringing those into we talked a little bit about like how to find good guys what to what to look for but but finding the seven foot jumpers inside our team which we also discussed I think one thing that leaders often because you know you play that corporate game well if if I think a guy underneath me is a seven foot jumper I'm gonna kind of maybe you know like he's good but he's not as good as me okay because I'm his leader and that kind of thing. And I think that's such a bad way to look at it. Always always think if this guy could be up you know beside me, lateral to me or he could be a ahead of me who cares I want this guy to win because I want the company to win. It's just selfishness it's just pride. And and so I said I say that um you know obviously you know good leaders are always gonna find those guys out there but make sure you're being that leader. If you're a leader make sure you're being you're the guy that says I'm okay with that guy being higher than me or I or or you know or promoted and and also the thing is through is yeah if you're gonna promote somebody within from from within always make sure that it really hurts to replace that guy. You don't want to promote somebody that isn't difficult to replace. If it's an easy replacement you probably shouldn't put the guy in this position. It should be difficult to replace if they're if they're so busy in getting so much work done themselves it should be gut wrenching to try to fill that gap because of the hole they left because they're that good.
SPEAKER_01How many seven foot jumpers you know wrestle with that I I I think I think they there's a false there's just there's it's just a false uh mindset uh it's a scarcity mindset rather than an abundance mindset. Uh the best leaders are are working themselves out of a job saying look honestly like they got this like he they they can do this without me I could leave tomorrow leave for a week and it's getting done without me and so as a boss when I when I see somebody stepping up and and it's running without him and I actually can pull him into a different role and his team there's replacements behind him. The bench is already built behind him that's that's a seven foot jumper to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah I I I don't know I I guess I I guess I think there's there's multiple ways to look at it I I think that like like to me a seven foot jumper is someone that is can like we I I have one guy that that that that's on my team he went when the day he was hired he said I never want to get promoted I want to I want to sit in the corner do the same thing every day that's all I want to do. And I'm telling you I consider him a seven foot jumper and I he he clear he said I don't now he's getting he his his pays he's getting raises yeah but he is still doing the same thing. He's happy with that so I I mean you had said yeah it can be it can be someone's promoter sure but it does not mean oh man the the guy he he he might not delegate that well but he he is a a very productive I didn't want to be redundant uh or or actually you know talk opposite what I said earlier.
SPEAKER_01I I meant uh one version of that is somebody who's not concerned about what Kyle correct who's not concerned about about the role the title he's just gonna do his best and he's gonna bring people up with him and and I think the people the person you're talking about has done that. I think he's raised the bar whether he's a leader a leader or not but he's not but he's not looking to beat him as boss. That's right because he wants to stay right here. That's right. And why would you again promote somebody into their incompetence? We don't want to do that. So if you're watching today if you're listening today I hope you were encouraged um we're all looking for seven foot jumpers in our business we're all looking for great team members make sure that you're not um make sure you're not you're not there's not people hiding in your company who are uh who are who are being covered by a great team who's covering for them and make sure you have seven foot jumpers that are being raised up in your company and being elevated to that to that position. So thanks for joining us today in the Forge have a great day