Widell and Boschetti on Risk, Trust, and Building a Design Firm | Hidden Foundations Ep. 7

In this episode of Hidden Foundations, Kendall sits down with Barrett Widell and Christina Boschetti of Widell and Boschetti to explore how two very different childhoods, careers, and creative paths became one business partnership. What started as a chance meeting at a Philadelphia park turned into a design firm built on trust, risk, resilience, and a shared instinct to keep moving forward.

Barrett shares how leaving home at 14 to pursue ballet shaped her risk tolerance, independence, body image, and ability to reinvent herself. Christina reflects on growing up around hard-working parents, her mother’s wedding cake business, fashion design in New York, and how those early lessons shaped her work ethic. Together, they open up about partnership, conflict, motherhood, money, team culture, client trust, female leadership, and why design is only one part of building a successful creative business.

Timecode Specific Chapters
 00:00 Meet Barrett Widell and Christina Boschetti
 00:50 The Chance Park Meeting That Started the Business
 07:12 Starting a Business While Raising Young Kids
 08:06 Risk, Ballet, and Leaving Home at 14
 14:05 Christina’s Fashion Path and Entrepreneurial Upbringing
 19:46 Why Their Partnership Works Like a Marriage
 24:38 Building the Right Team and Learning From Mistakes
 35:30 Teaching Kids About Money, Work, and Respect
 39:28 Dinner Tables, Wedding Cakes, and Family Lessons
 42:03 Body Image, Ballet, and Refusing to Shrink
 49:15 Trust, Mental Resilience, and Business Partnership
 52:46 Listening to Clients and Building Trust in Design
 58:16 Handling Difficult Clients and Protecting Integrity
 01:05:48 Capacity, Culture, and Female Leadership
 01:15:00 Teaching Kids to Follow Passion

A special thank you to The Franklin on Rittenhouse for graciously allowing us to record these episodes inside their hotel. Their hospitality, atmosphere, and attention to detail gave us the perfect setting to host thoughtful conversations and bring Hidden Foundations to life in Philadelphia.
Check out their hotel here: https://www.thefranklinonrittenhouse.com/
https://www.instagram.com/franklinonrittenhouse/

Hidden Foundations is a weekly podcast hosted by entrepreneur and investor Kendall Schoenrock, examining how family systems, early adversity, and childhood dynamics quietly shape high-performing adults. Each conversation uncovers the “invisible wiring” behind resilience, ambition, leadership, and grit — told through candid stories from entrepreneurs, athletes, creators, and leaders.

Guided by the thesis that strength is forged early at home, the show uses a consistent framework to explore emotional environments, money narratives, family roles, conflict patterns, and early challenges. Every episode delivers at least one practical, repeatable insight for parents, leaders, and anyone seeking to understand how greatness is built long before it’s visible.

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#HiddenFoundations #InteriorDesign #Entrepreneurship

Transcript

0:00

Design is the easy part for us. It's the rest of it. And I told my husband that like I totally, totally, totally could be business partners with her. This is like deeper than a business partnership, and I it's even deeper than like a sisterhood to me. It's like a it's a true soulmate. What defines a good client for you? Friendly, kind, appreciative, appreciative, and has deep pockets. Kendall Schoenrock, welcome back for another episode of the Hidden Foundations podcast. Today I'm joined with Widell and Buschetti, which is an interior design firm. So it's Barrett Wydell and Christina Buschetti. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So I uh am so thrilled to have you guys here. Thanks for coming on. Um, two totally different paths in terms of this partnership. I want to talk about um how you found each other, how you met, and started your business. Well, you can start on that one. Our finding is very interesting. Um, basically, long story short, because it can get a little long sometimes, but we were both living in Philadelphia. Um, I was potentially moving out of state to Las Vegas. My husband had just gotten a pretty big offering in Vegas. So we had put our house up on the market. And the understanding between the two of us was if it sells within three weeks, we will move. And so it was up on the market, and that day we were having a showing. So I had to get out of the house. I had three dogs, and my son Dylan, who at the time was 10 months, and he had just started walking. And um, we went to a park that's right behind our house. And it was the greatest park because it had that like squishy floor. So, like when you had a little baby like this that was just walking, um, him falling was no big deal. So my mom was with me. We took the three dogs, we took Dylan, we're there, and no one else is at the park. And all of a sudden, in kind of walks by and comes in Christina and another girl, another mom, and they were with their two children. And I knew the other mom, not that she was like a good friend or anything, but we knew each other just because of mom's in the neighborhood. And I was like, oh, hi, you know, and started talking and immediately realized that I had this like crazy energy with Christina. Like we immediately just kind of connected and we were just talking about life. And I was telling her that I used to dance at the ballet, and I just recently retired and started kind of dabbling in interior design and um party design for kids and weddings that I had done, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we just like really hit it off. She was telling me about her background and being in fashion, and we both had lived in New York, and it was just like this weird cosmic kind of like energy. So that day I went home and I told my husband, I'm like, I just met this girl. And I swear to God, Chris, I feel like she could be my business partner. Like, there's, and we didn't even talk about anything like that. It was just this really weird energy. And I truly did want a partner because I had started our business from literally nothing. I had no understanding of any of it. Um, and I just wanted someone to kind of go on this crazy ride with me. And it's really hard to meet someone that you really want as a business partner. So, long story short, again, it turned out we did not move, and we got two full price offers like right away, and they both fell through for the craziest, oddest reasons, and it was all meant to be. And so I hooked up with Christina, and we immediately started talking about starting this business together. I wonder. And that's kind of how that came out. So just a random chance encounter in a park. Yeah, literally. Did you have some of the same spark? Did you feel that all right? Yeah, I actually went home to my husband. It was our first date night after having the baby. He was only two months. So I've gone on a long walk. And the girl that I was with was like, let's just stop one more place. And I'm like, oh my gosh, checking my watch. I'm like, I have a date tonight, but fine. Because I had just met her through the mom's club. And um, I was so happy because I'm like, wait a second. I was happy, but then I was sad because I'm like, I finally met someone that I really connected with because I lived in Philly for, you know, nine months and I didn't meet anyone that I liked, unfortunately. And finally I meet someone that has like passion and cool, and like she was telling me about her house, it's like super modern, and I was like all about that. And then when she said she was moving, she's there in the park for that reason. I still like had this weird feeling, and I told my husband that like I totally, totally, totally could be business partners with her. And he was like, Well, she leaves. Can you take all her clients? Did you guys think about that on the front end to plan for potential breakup? Or are there any? Because no, we didn't start yet. Yeah, we didn't even really talk. Like, honestly, it was it happened all so fast, and then we started to like hang out, and then the conversation just organically started to happen. And then I would say within like two months, we made the decision that like we were gonna do this together, we were gonna start something, and we were gonna start it basically January 1st. So pretty much every New Year's is a you know uh a moment to remember like us coming together and kind of starting this thing that honestly we both had no idea what we were doing and like how we we were even gonna start it. And um, I think that's also why we've had a good partnership too, is because we really kind of have grown together and grown organically together, which has been really nice. Do you have any outside mentors or or uh advisors that have so yeah, I mean, we we did. We we definitely connected with a designer in Tennessee, and we actually went out there and shadowed her for five, four days. Um, and our babies were our so now we each have two boys, but originally during that time we had one and they were both really young, and we were still breastfeeding and pumping and all the things. Um, and we went out there and that was great, and we learned a lot from her, very different designer than us, and honestly runs her business a little differently as well. But there was a lot to learn from her. She is a pure self-starter, she's extremely smart, and I think it just gave us the confidence to do what we wanted to do after we were with her. Um, we do also like lean on one of my best friends. She's very high up in the financial business, and she's been great in terms of hard times asking questions. My sister-in-law did HR. We go to her a lot for like HR reasons because we don't have that. We're such a small little team. We don't have HR in our office. Um, and we truly want to be, you know, respectful to our team. So we ask her. My husband helps with um the financial aspect of things. And then, you know, we each have our own individual like helpers, friends, family, whatever that we lean on. Everyone's really supportive of us and our growth, which has been really nice. Um, you know, in the beginning, I think people probably laughed at us and were like, yeah, what are you guys doing? There's no way you're gonna, you know, be able to make this successful. And then we did. And so yeah. Was it wrapped in fear at all? When you, I mean, you're you're obviously balancing kids at home. Yeah. Did you have good support from from the spouses? Yeah, and we did nannies. Yeah, so they were they were really supportive, they had their own thing that they were doing, but you know, both of them were kind of like starting their new their own own new thing. So they were kind of like in the same place as us. So that was a bit scary, but we always say we never really looked back, we kind of just looked forward and and we kind of just worked together to see how we can make this happen. And we never really had like the second thoughts, we just did it. I think Christina and I are both individually risk takers, and I think that that has a lot to do with why together we didn't have fear. Like, it wasn't even like one of us did and one didn't. We both like look at each day as kind of like living your best and making everything a true experience and taking the risks, and we don't really have our mistakes, yeah. But we would never really think about like the nose or like being scared that we're doing something that we shouldn't be. I mean, and I've always I've been like that my entire life, you know. Like I left my parents when I was 14 for my ballet career. That was a humongous risk to take, especially at such a young age. So I think her and I are very similar in that sense that like we're not we're not afraid to like fail either. Let's explore the the let's explore the risk aspect that you just spoke of because I I find that really interesting. So do you think a lot of the risk tolerance for you comes from uh your dance ballet experience? Can you talk about that? Yeah, so I think a lot of it also comes from my parents. Both my parents are entrepreneurs. Um, they were both extremely successful in what they did. And my dad primarily took a lot of risks. Like my dad was brought in, he's well, he's retiring now, but he was brought into businesses to build them, to make them grow, be successful, and then sell them. Um, and you know, financially he put a lot of his own money into things for these companies, and that that's huge risks. I mean, money is definitely something that keeps us all up at night when you're essentially running your business. Um, with Ballet, you have to be a really independent person. You, it's self-driven. Like there's no one behind me that was driving me to be this successful. And I was that way since I can only remember. I mean, I I was starting to go to eight-week programs all over the country at 11. Um, and I was still sleeping on the floor of my parents' room because I'm too scared to sleep in my own bedroom. But I was a risk taker in that sense and I was so career-driven, and I knew at such a young age I was going, like, not that I want to be a professional ballet dancer, I was gonna be a professional ballet dancer. And it was not handed to me. I was not one that was brought up really in that industry. I was very gifted, but I still had my um, you know, issues that I had to work on in terms of technique or body image. Like I was either always too thin or too fat, and um, that was a struggle. So there, it wasn't like I was this put on a pedestal getting offers everywhere. I did, I did really truly have to work for it. And then when I left at 14, I mean, I, my mom was in New York with me. At that time at the school, I was the youngest person they had ever asked to stay year-round. Um, so out of the world, they only take 200 students for the summer program. And that literally is out of the world. And then out of that uh 200, usually it's about 10 people that they asked to stay for the year. I don't know what the time now, but that's kind of where it was then. And they said to my mom, we know that she's so young, so it's okay if you say no, we will approach for next year. And I remember telling my mom, if you do not let me do this, I will cause you living hell. I will be a drug addict, I will rap away, I will like all these things that I would never do. But like I was just like, I was so like I'm very focused. So, like when I'm focused on something, if I don't get that, then that's a problem because I'll just keep going. Um, and my mom signed the papers without even calling my dad. Wow. Yeah. I think you have to have a lot of confidence in your in your child, knowing who they are, to let them go at that age. Like my mom knew I was so driven, I was so focused that even though it was the hardest thing for her, she knew she was making the right and the best decision for me. Um, so yeah, I mean What did your parents do that set you up for that level of confidence to say, I'm gonna leave at 14? I I first off, I I have this dream I'm chasing, I have the confidence to get it done. I'm gonna leave and go to New York and dance basically by yourself. Where does what did they do to set up? So I feel like I always just felt really safe around my parents with my decisions for my career. Like my parents were so supportive, like they truly were, and they, even though, yes, they pushed me in ways, they weren't those parents, like quote unquote stage moms, right? My mom like left her job to essentially basically be my manager, even though you don't have manager, but like took me into every practice, you know, paid for everything that I needed, ended up working at the dance studio because that was really the only way she could see me because I was there so many hours of the day, and then all on the weekends. Like, I didn't have a normal childhood growing up because I was a professional basically at the age of pretty much 11. Like when you get scouted so young in that industry because it's over so fast. So, you know, it really was my life. And my mom was really good at trying to give me an outside approach to my childhood as well. Like I had friends outside of the ballet, and she was always great about having birthdays that I would have my dance friends at one party, and then it was all my other friends at the other party. But my parents were just always really supportive. They never really said no, not meaning like some spoiled brat over here, but it was really because they saw my passion and my dream and they just wanted to support that. So I think by having that support system behind me, you know, which just made me kind of shoot for the stars, as opposed to them being like, no, you need to do better in school. And like even with school, I struggled horribly. Yeah. And my mom never, like, even though, yes, they were probably not thrilled with my grades, but like it was never like, nope, we're taking value away from you because you're gonna do this. Like, they just kind of always were there for me and allowed me to be me. Um, and I think that gives you a lot of confidence. Like, it's not them telling me I'm the most beautiful or the best dancer or whatever it is. It was just really about being supportive. In this relationship, you're in a partnership and you were in a partnership with someone that has an atypical background in education. How does that impact you as a business partner in your business? Well, it didn't, I I mean, I absolutely loved it because I never met anyone like that before. I grew up in a household where pretty much you I had a twin brother, and we just basically had a focus on our own lives, and they weren't as like supportive in that retrospect. Like, if I wanted to do sports, I did the sports. I did three major sports, and I was on the ski team and everything like that. My parents, like, fine, if you can get there, you can play. My parents were very hard workers. I I think I get it from my mother. She owned a wedding cake business, and like I used to see her up till four in the morning, like, still working. Like, she was the hardest worker I ever met in my entire life. And I definitely get that from her. As my dad is like, it's four o'clock, I'm home from work, I'm gonna take a nap. And uh it's just it's just like a different thing. But my parents are very all American. Like, if you guys you guys want to go to you should go to college if you guys want to. And it was just different. And I would basically, like, I brought myself to church, they didn't care because my mother was divorced before prior to. Um, and I was basically just my own, not my own boss, but I was I just led the way. And my parents were just the ones that if I got in trouble because I was a little rebellious, they would punish me for like hardcore punishments, like literally ground me for like a month just for doing something, like being late from a football game or something. So I knew I was going to college. I ended up going to FAU because I was waiting for my SATs to get back. I got into U Miami, but the only thing they didn't have was my SATs, and there's a reason for this. I was forced to take my SATs as a sophomore. I had a concert that night before of the SATs. I had no idea that they were cumulative. I just literally like blindly took the test. I ended up getting an insanely low score. So much it was like embarrassing. I didn't tell anybody. And then when I was actually focused and studying with one of my best friends who is very, she's an intellect, she's insanely smart, and she was very awesome at like helping me take, you know, like study for the test. I ended up getting like over 500 points more. I got accused of cheating on the SATs. They were trying to figure out in every way for months and months and months. I would have, I would have tried to cheat. You can't, I mean, I don't think you can cheat on the SATs. Like everybody has a different test, or they didn't believe that you could make such a high jump. But I told them, like, I was like, I can tell you, I I was a sophomore, I didn't realize, like, I didn't know, like, I just thought you could get better scores. So not knowing that was, you know, if someone could, if I could go back and someone could tell me, no, you should maybe just don't take it at your sophomore year, take it your junior year and really focus. Like, I would that's something I wish I could go back. Yeah. But I unfortunately I couldn't. And I chose to go to school with one of my best friends. She didn't get any of Miami. So I decided to go to FAU for two years. I had a great social life, and I also enjoyed the beach, and I also got really good grades. So when it time when it was time to transfer out and went to UMass, Amherst, I had to literally take a zillion classes just to graduate in the year 2000, which is when I graduated. That was really tough because UMass, Amherst is a party school, but I was so focused on graduating that I did everything I could to do that. And I didn't, you know, I actually didn't enjoy that college lifestyle. I was more into what's coming next. And then I moved to New York, I went to Parsons grad school for fashion design. And then I start, I um started working for a million different companies, junior lines, men's luxury lines. And again, there I was working till four in the morning because being a fashion designer is super competitive, especially in New York. So if you weren't working as hard as you possibly work and give those hours without any complaints, then you're out. So, and we had deadlines, like it was crazy, crazy market deadlines. So that's kind of like how I made myself grow up. Like I think New York really helped me do that without having the support from like the amazing, you know, parents. Yeah. So let's let's dive into the entrepreneurial background because it seems like with your mom and her business and both of your parents, you were observing them run different businesses. How does that impact your decision to to go into partnership and and uh establish your business? Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, I used to go to my dad's office all the time and I would help out with like different things. And I think just always seeing my parents, their drive, you know, for the business. Everything was about business for them. Like they were so engrossed in their businesses. And and at one point my mom ended up working for my dad for a while. So that was like really nice to see that partnership. And maybe that's kind of why I always wanted to have a partner and not really do it on my own in terms of the business, because I did see them together. And that was a very long time, but in like a short time when I was little, you know. Um, you know, I think having a partnership in business, if you can look at it like a marriage and not so much focus on the like the money or the tit for task, because there's always gonna be stronger points for one, weaker points for another, or and vice versa, right? And you have that in your marriage too. But if you can look at this as a marriage where you're always going to see the end of the road, which is I'm together with this person, not maybe just focusing on at the moment, at this time, maybe we're not as strong as we usually are. But guess what? In a couple months from now, we will be. Like it, I think you have to think that way. Like to me, you know, I'm married and I truly believe like death do us part, like I'm with my husband until the very, very end. And yes, are there times that are difficult? Of course. What marriage doesn't have their struggles and their ups and downs, but that also is a I take that as a point to grow with my husband and appreciate each other more. And I look at the same with the partnership. Like Christina and I were more than just business partners, like we almost have a like a very deep sisterhood. You know, we've gone through having our children, then getting pregnant again, having more children, you know, struggles in our personal lives, the growth of our business, sometimes not the growth of our business. And instead of really looking at it in this lens of like, this is how you have to run your business and this is how it should be, which I think a lot of people do. I've never been that way, and I don't think Christina has either. And so we truly just look at this as like, we at the end of the day want the same things, even if we don't always see eye to eye or maybe see those things at the same, but we really do want the same things at the end of the day. And the money portion too, I think a lot of times once you start making money in a business and in a partnership, that can get really Tough and that can be a struggle. Um, and we really never thought about like how much money we were gonna make, how much money do we need to make? Um sometimes, you know, like money maybe isn't there like it was the last season, and for five minutes we'll say, like, I wonder why that happened, but then we just keep going. Like it's just never really focused on. How do you guys deal with conflict between the two of you? It's very short-lived. So we don't dwell on you know any sort of like argument or disagreement. We literally tell each other our points. Sometimes we just kind of like walk away because someone is the other someone is maybe like the other person is has stronger emotions and feelings than the other. Um, but we never let it bring us down, especially for work. So the minute later, we're like, okay, we're gonna do a photo shoot tomorrow, and this is what we have to do, and who are we gonna get on board and this is what's happening, and you know, like we just kind of it's like family dynamic. Yeah, you know, like there's so much love and respect and trust that's built there. So maybe one time we'll scream at each other for five minutes, and then like she said, it's kind of like we just kind of then walk away from it and then we move on. Like it's we never sit there and truly dwell on things um because it's not really worth it. It's not. I mean, there's the the conflicts are never so big that it actually is a problem. Yeah. Um, and then I then another fun fact is we live literally like next door from each other. So there's no hiding. We're literally two acres apart on the same street where houses are like caddy corner. Wow. Yeah. How many employees are you guys up to now? So there's seven of us twice okay. So five. Yeah. It ebbs inflows. We've had more before and we've had less. It kind of is dependent on like, you know, obviously the talent and what's there, and then kind of where we are in our business as well. Like sometimes I'm like, oh, we need, we do need more for sure. But there's also a point where it's like, okay, maybe if we scaled back in projects, we could we scaled back our team. It kind of, you know, we like you know, we we started this from nothing. So we're still even, you know, 10 years, 11 years in, we're still figuring out like how many employees do we need? Do we really need this many projects? You know, we're trying to still figure that out. Sure. I want to I want to explore business ownership with the leadership side. So let's talk about cultivating the employees and how you're building out the team. If you had to go back before you started the business and give advice before you led a team, what would you say? Well, I always say, and I learned this from my dad, he always told me that as a leader and as the owner of the business, you should always surround yourself with people that are smarter than you. And that at first I didn't really, I think when I was younger, not really understand what that meant. And now I fully understand what that means. And if you as, you know, a business owner and a leader can look at yourself and really point out the things that you're not good at and find those people that can do that, I think that's a really strong point for you. Um, I think for us to just, you know, looking back when we were wanting to really build a team, we might have jumped the gun here and there building a team in the beginning with like the wrong team members. Like our vision and our talent was so there, and these clients, these big clients were coming to us, and our team was just not strong, and so a lot of mistakes were made, which was kind of damaging to us. And that was something that had a lot to do with money, and yeah, and that a lot to do with money because the first person that we hired was someone to take care of our administrative portion. Bear and I are not great at math and we don't like doing it, and we don't like you know, excel short. We don't want to be managing the money at all. We don't want to manage the money. Um, now it's a different story. We know this is our business, we've grown so much, like if we have to be able to do that now. But at that time, we were like trying to figure everything else out that we needed someone to help us manage all the money in the client facing when it came to the money talk because we didn't want to be the ones to talk to our clients about money after the first time you met with them. So when you say money, is it the cost of the furniture that you're you're putting into sales? Yeah, so no, it's all the invoicing. Um, so basically when we present to a client, then at the time we have an itemized invoice with all the pricing, that person is getting the quotes, uh, you know, finding online the pricing, reaching out to the vendors, like they're literally handling all that in there. And then when the client is purchasing, they're receiving the money and then they're purchasing everything. Um, so there's a lot of debits in credits and gets very confusing. And like, yes, in the beginning, I think there was so much going on and we just really didn't even know how to handle that. And also, there's got to be a point in your business where the client, yes, looks to us for everything, but we also want to put a boundary there where they're not really just looking to us for everything. Like we now have a structured team and a reason that everyone has their job and their responsibility, and our client is paying for that. Like they're paying for that huge team. So they're gonna look at us for a certain thing, and they're gonna look at our project manager for something, our assistant for something, like each person has their own individual responsibilities. Um, and most clients respect that. Some not so much. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So help me understand, uh, because I I don't normally play in this world. Um, is it typical that you put together a fully turnkey solution where you're sourcing the furniture, the creative design, and then there's a consulting fee that that's stacked on top of the cost for the sofa, the chairs, or the furniture? So there's so many different ways in the industry that you can price. And I do a lot of truly like business research. I'm constantly trying to figure out how do we stay on top of being competitive with our pricing because that it is so hard. There is not a book that tells you you only price this way. And you gotta test it out. And in the beginning, we tested, we tested it out a lot of different ways and we realized a lot of ways it didn't work and a lot of ways it worked. We're still at a level where right now it works, but potentially, let's say next year we hire these clients that are way more in terms of budget, we're probably gonna adjust the way that we're pricing. At the time, right now, we are a flat fee-based firm. So when you hire us, we send you a fee for our designs. That is one thing. That is for us to design for you, to correspond with you, and to be your vision. Okay. On top of that, we source materials, whether it's building materials or furnishings. Those particular pieces are charged at our cost with a markup of 30%. That 30% for a lot of people is just they charge it because they're like, well, these are my vendors, these are my contacts. We actually use that 30% to go towards our project management. So we have a project manager on staff that pays for his portion of the job, as opposed to saying we do 30% plus project management plus our fee, plus blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we're a little bit more straightforward. We're very transparent about our costs, and we try to be really realistic and um fair to our clients. Like this is a luxury business. There is a reason you're paying a lot of money. However, we're not trying to like nickel and dime and totally screw you on every single thing and just charge because we can charge. And firms do do that. And I'm not saying anything negative for them for that, but for us, it just doesn't work that way. So that's how we charge. Fascinating. Thank you for explaining that to me because I don't understand how how that world fits together. So that evolution and the entrepreneurship side of uncovering pricing and marketing and branding, and obviously the specific tier of client that you're going after, that was all just a natural evolution together. Yeah, definitely. And I think you know, with this business, it's not like we're starting some tech company or something. Like it really is so client-driven and client focused and customer service focused that it's something that is in order to run a business like this, it comes from within. It can be taught to a certain aspect, but it truly is a personality type. There's a lot of great designers out there, they're not running a business. So why I think that you have you really have to have both sides of your brain. You have to have a business-minded brain and you have to be a creative at the same time. And usually when you're creative, you're not business-minded as well. So you need to have both of those sides to run a business, a successful business. Um, and like I said, it's like a personality trait. So as we've kind of gone through this fast explosion of our business, we learned so much so fast. And I think you need to really self-reflect on like the good and the bad in order to continue to grow and also be okay, like changing your business model. Like that's okay. You know, just because last year we worked this way doesn't mean that this year it's gonna work this way. So and then you reflect and you're like, oh my gosh, why were why were we doing it this way? This this makes so much more sense. And then we're gonna do that same thing next year. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's a lot we've truly been self-taught in that sense. Um, and I think it's really the only way that I mean works for us, to be honest. So talk about making the let's talk about making mistakes. Because what I just heard was in order for you to find the right path for billing and invoicing and the structure, you tested a number of different ways that didn't work. How do you guys do after action reports and digests and and and then use that to pivot and change into different things, specifically when you make mistakes? I mean, I think you and I, like Christine and I spend a lot of time together just in general. And when we're not so busy, we we do lunch together, and it's not just to go like eat and have a nice lunch. It's truly that's when we do a lot of business talk when we're not with the team. And I think it's really important to us to do that. We talk about a lot of this hard stuff, but I feel like you and I just kind of always like we'll like hash it out the things that went wrong, and then we use that in terms of like motivating us to do like better and change those ways and kind of pivot. Um, we're not structured in the sense that like we write things down and then like like we don't have like a true written-down like business plan or business model, or like every year we're gonna sit down, we're gonna rate these things. Like, we're very much off just off the top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, one of the things with let's just say the administrative portion, because that has been a whirlwind. We pretty much used to rely on one person without truly overseeing what was happening. Now we know what was what really happens, and there's negotiations that can happen, and there's mistakes that we have to figure out and you know, beg and plead our vendors because of those mistakes that happen within our our firm. Um, having more of a knowledge of what the heck is going on with that administrative position is the most important thing, I think, right now. Because again, when we were growing, we were focusing on other things. We were relying on this one person to like handle all of this, and it wasn't handled exactly how we would appreciate it to. And that's where money gets lost. So I think that is a biggest growing pain for us. Like, we're like, wait a second, we had all these jobs, we made, you know, they were pretty good, really good jobs, but why is our top, like, why is our numbers at this place right now for like our project? Yeah, it's hard. Things move so fast. And like we talked about, like we're f we're we have families, like we have kids, and we built these miss businesses with young children. Um, and we took a lot of sacrifice to, you know, build these this. And so we did put a lot of trust that we probably shouldn't have right away. And sometimes I still find us putting a little bit of too much trust sometimes, because at the end of the day, no one's gonna do your no one's going to care about your business the way that you care about your eyes. Like, and my dad always told me that too. He's like, I know you want your employees to have the same love and passion for the business that you do, but that's never going to truly happen. Like, this is your business. You you birthed this. This is your baby. Um, and I think you know, we've gone through a lot of lessons, but like going through lessons just teaches you a lot of things. And instead of taking it as like a negative and making it so damaging to you, you take those lessons, you use those lessons, and you apply them to being better. Like, that's what you would tell your kids, right? Like, you shouldn't let it take away from your dreams and your success. Two boys in each family. What are their ages? Nine and twelve, both. Nine and twelve, same ages. How much of that uh of the business and those types of mistakes and the money and the finances are you sharing with your sons? Zero. Well, I have I don't I don't share anything about money with my kids because I get hyper focused on that stuff. You do, or they do. My kids do. Um I just don't I prefer not talking to them about money right now, just yet. I feel like they're not um sophisticated enough and they're too juvenile and they're not gonna understand no matter how much. I mean, I'll tell them, oh, you want me to stay at home? I can't stay at home because I have to actually work. Because I'll say, like, do you want this house? Do you want a really nice house to live in and like really good food to eat and have all your sports and all that? Like sometimes I say that, but but that's just to get them to understand you have to work to get that. Yeah, I mean, we definitely have conversations with the kids. My my kids are our kids are very different. Um, and that's for good ways, you know. But I grew up knowing that I did come from money. My parents did very well. My mom comes from money, my dad came from nothing. My parents both made money because they worked their asses off. Sorry, I hope I could say that. But with that said, I was privileged in that sense that, like, yes, we had nice cars. I could pretty much do anything that I wanted to do. Like, my parents financially were there and able to be there, but I was always taught that they worked for that. And that's why I think I appreciate money. Like, I'm not a spoiled brat in that sense. And that's because my parents definitely grew me up that way. So, with my kids, I do have conversations with them about their life and what they have because honestly, we could lose everything tomorrow. And that's the sacrifice that we take as business owners. My husband's also a full entrepreneur and has his own businesses and started them at the same time as ours. So, like, we actually went through a very huge part of the beginning of our business is having nothing, like to the point where I thought we were gonna foreclose on everything, lose everything. And I have too much pride to ask mom and dad to pay to help. I won't do that, even though I know I could. I won't. So we do tell our kids all the time, like, you know, especially when it comes to like holidays and gifts and things like that, they have everything. And I really try to like not focus on those things with them because I want them to, like, again, understand that mom and dad work are a soft to have this, and we could lose everything tomorrow. So you need to appreciate what you have and you need to understand that, yes, we have night a nice life. We could have a way better life, but we also could lose everything. And so we do talk about you know that and obviously having our kids at this age, kids are getting everything, they're going out on Mean Street, you know, they're asking for mom money from mom and dad. So understanding, like, you know, the value of that. I mean, they're lucky, like we take them out for sushi. They can order and eat the sushi, they eat lobster. Like most kids aren't, a lot of kids aren't living like that, you know? And I know people that live way, way, way, way, way beyond and have way, way, way, way more than what we have. Um, but at the end of the day, I think it's important for them to realize how hard we work and that that is why we have a comfortable, I'll say it's more of a comfortable lifestyle because it's not lavish, it's a comfortable lifestyle. But again, like I said, at any any day tomorrow, we could lose everything. And so they need to know how valuable that is and to truly respect what they have. And when I don't see the respect, that's a major, major problem with me in my life. Because if anyone doesn't respect the hard work and the hustle, that's when I like I I don't tolerate some they know. Think back to dinner time when you were when you were growing up. And most specifically, I'm curious about your your mother with the wedding cake business. How how much of that were you exposed to? And did you talk about the problems, the the the challenging clients, the deliverables? Did you talk about that at family meals? Yes, my mother did often because I was sh she trusted in talking. I actually helped her. I worked with her like in the summers, and I I was there with her working until the four in the morning. I understand that I mean brides are brides. So my mom didn't really have to deal with that as much um because she didn't have to go through a year of of speaking with these people. They had she, you know, she met with them, she had the the sales meeting, she sold, she designed with them pretty much hand sketching right there at the table. Um, I loved her process. We talked about it. She, my mom was super passionate about her, like her talent. She still is. Yeah, she is. And dinner was always a huge thing for our family. That was the time we had to be home at that time. Like after sports, my mom had a set time. She would come home from her shop, make like a seven-course meal, and that was our time to, and we had to eat everything on the table. But that was our time that we talked about our days and you know, some things that were happening with my mom. And my mom, my mom also is a complainer, so we'd hear about that, but then she would be so proud of like everything that she was doing, and she would share, she would bring home some of her gum paste flowers that she made. That's truly like an art. Um, and I was always, I was always so proud of her in that way and that that respect that I have for her. And I I honestly believe like that rubbed me, rubbed off on me. So I'm very happy for that. Yeah. We didn't have family dinners because I was at the ballet. And dancing. Yeah, so like literally it was fast food and that was it. Like I didn't even get to really even sit to eat my fast food. It was like in the car all night to dancing. Because I went right from school to dancing till pretty much nine o'clock at night every night. So I don't remember actually sitting down and having a family meal. And then obviously you were gone at 14. Yeah. And I was eating by myself in the cafeteria. High school. Like I said, we have very different upgrade upbringings. Like I was all about like every everyone in high school was just like college, college, college, college, college. Like, I can't wait to go to college. And Barrett was like already a professional at 14 years old. You mentioned body image for a second. I've got daughters. What would you want to say to girls that are concerned with and you had pressure too thin, too fat, right? Let's talk about body image. Oh gosh, it's a hard one. You know, I feel really grateful that it didn't impact me so much because I did, I mean, I went through it. Like I had to see nutritionists. Um, you know, I was on the pill, then I had to get off the birth control pill because I had gained too much weight on it. So I didn't get into New York City Ballet because I was too fat at that time. And he they wanted me to lose weight. And I said, no. I said, if you want to hire me, it's because of my talent, not because of this right now. And it all works out in the end. And I think that's kind of what I want to say because it did work out in the end for me. Like I ended up dancing for this company here at the Pennsylvania Ballet. And even though it wasn't my first choice in New York City Ballet, I would have never met my husband. I would never have my kids, I would not have Christina, I wouldn't have this business. So, like, it all truly works out. And I think you need to be a like give yourself a little grace. When I was 16, I was starting to go through puberty. So my body was changing. That body is different than the body I had when I was in my 20s. And that body is different than the body I have now. Even after having kids, my body changed so many different ways. And I look back and I'm like, oh my God, I looked horrible, or or you know, whatnot. But I really think you need to give yourself a little bit of grace and just feel good about yourself no matter how you look. And I trust me, I understand wanting to feel good in your clothes, wanting to feel good about yourself, especially when you're married. Not that my husband. Ever had a problem with my body, but like I want to feel good around my husband. I want to feel good about myself. But having that grace and a little bit of patience with your body as you will go through a lot of different changes, I think is important. And when I was young, I was again, I was so driven and I was so stubborn that like when I was told I was too fat or too thin, I the noise wasn't really there for me. Like I really didn't listen to anybody. Where did the confidence come to reject that? I don't know. I think it's truly just my Capricorn itself. I really don't know. I mean, even my I mean, my I know my mom, like there was a point where my mom was like, You just need to lose the weight. Like, you're not gonna get into New York City Valley. And they knew that was my choice, like my newborne choice. Like, you only go to that school to be in that company. And I was like, I'm not, I'm just not gonna do it. Sorry. And the girl that also got pulled in for the same reason, she did lose the weight, she got in the company. So I don't know where that comes from. I honestly don't. I can't tell you, but like I'm just very stubborn. Like when someone tells me no, I make it a yes. And I think that's just kind of where I always was. I don't know. Wow. Yeah, I mean, people were literally like, you are such an idiot. Like, I and even when I retired, I retired at my prime, which I was pretty much getting promoted to the highest position you can get into the company. And I still said, I see you. And I mean, no one was supportive about me leaving except for my husband. It's your choice. Why would they not support? I think it's just because everyone saw the success that was there and that was coming as well. And I was, I mean, I was really dancing so well. And I started this when I was two. My parents put so much money, so much of their own personal efforts into growing me as this dancer, letting me go. Like it was such an emotional thing for them that I think they were just like, and I also didn't have a plan. Like, what was I doing next? My parents are very busy, you know, they're very business. Like, my dad was like, if you're gonna retire, you have to have a plan. You have to have a job. What are you gonna do? My husband was young, we were young. I was 20, I was turning 29, and Chris was 27, turning 28. He wasn't making enough money to afford what we wanted or even what we could have, you know, at that time. So my dad was like, You if you're gonna leave and you're going to truly like transition, you need a plan. Like, you can't just figure it out. And I did, I ended up getting a job, um, which then led to us like me starting this business because they pretty much fired me for being pregnant. And that's a whole other story. But people were not, no, they were not supportive. Do you also jump without a parachute? Because what I just heard was very comfortable making those decisions. Once the decision's done, we're gonna move on. Yeah, I think we're the same. Yeah, pretty much the same. I mean, I haven't had so many like trials as Barrett, like with especially being a ballerina, because she was abused, like to the next level. So I didn't have that, and that probably made her even more like stubborn and defensive, and like, who are you? Like, I'm abused right now, and she's this is her reflecting. Um when you when you say abused, you mean the physically taxing because of the the it's just very mentally abusive. Um, like the way that you're spoken to, the way that you're looked at, the way that you're you know, you go on stage, you you put it's it's a very self in um absorbed position. Like your body is your instrument. That's what's on stage, that's what's performing. There's nothing else doing it. It is you. So you're very you focused, and you have to have a lot of passion. You get paid pennies. I mean, pennies to be in that profession. And when you're on stage and you come off and you you did the best you have ever danced, and they don't look at you and tell you any of that, and then it's everything is well, you could have done this better and this better. It's like having the most difficult parent that's gonna constantly show you everything that's wrong with you, it's in a it's abusive. And our firm at that, or if not firm, but our um company at that time was a very abusive company, and that company ended up getting wiped out when I left. So they got rid of all the artistic staff. It was very abusive. How how does it impact your mental state and your your mental resiliency as you're navigating that? I think also because it again, we're just such risk takers, and I've been just such a risk taker. And I've never, even with like finding my meeting my husband, like I had been in love a lot of times. I've been with a lot of boyfriends, thought I was gonna marry a lot of them. I never gave up on finding love when it didn't work out. So I don't know. I just it was really tough for me for sure. And for some odd reason, I came out okay. A lot of people in the ballet don't, and they can't transition into another career, and they end up, you know, in full therapy, like a lot of therapy. And there's nothing wrong with therapy by any means, but I don't know why I've always been able to kind of take those hardships and look at them in like a beautiful way that like makes me okay to not have to sit here and dwell on it all the time. Do you lean on each other the majority of the time for your mental resiliency and fitness? And do you know each other so well that you can track when one person's high and the other's low? Yes. Right? And balance that. Yeah, certainly. And and do you communicate that with each other that I'm not in a good space today? Yep. Yeah, yep, 100%. Do you think that's part of your strength? Yeah, for sure. I think that we like aren't afraid to be totally ourselves around each other because we know that we both love each other so much and there's z there's zero judgment. So yeah, a hundred percent. Like me, even just going through like the recovery of my surgery that I recently had, like there were definitely some low days. Like no one talks to you about fully about like what recovery means in terms of that. It's more just like, oh, you can't do this and you have to do Platys, but they don't tell you about the mental state of recovery and how lonely it that can be. Um, so there were many times where I would like tell Christina that you know, there are days that I just not doing well today. Because I immediately tried to go back into work, not like physically the office, but like back into work. And unfortunately, there were two pretty significant deaths that also happened at that time as well. So there's a lot going on. So Christina really like was there for me and understood that like I was going through a low point as I was trying to get to this high point as well, you know, and so having each other's back, I think, is just so important. And a lot of business partners aren't don't have that relationship. Yeah. Where's the trust come from? I don't I think that we're both like we're both so different, but we're both so like where what you see is what you get. And like I know for a fact, Barrett's not lying to me ever. And I think that she knows for a fact I'm not lying, and we're completely honest with each other, so transparent. Like, even morning text, we don't even say hi. We're just like, okay, this is what's happening. Because we've we've already talked to each other 18 years in time. It's just like our relationship. I mean, we've been to we're with each other more than like most people in like even two people that don't work, husband and wife, like we're we're with each other so much and we experience so much together every single day. That we talk about our experiences too. I think that's another thing too. Like, and we've brought each other into experiences together so much. Like, again, this is like deeper than a business partnership, and I it's even deeper than like a sisterhood to me. It's like it's a true soulmate, you know, not your husband's soulmate, but it's a true soulmate in your life. Let's be clear, right? Right. But I think trust comes from that undenying like truth between each other, and that's truly what we have. Like, there are there's no secrets, totally vulnerable, yeah. Total vulnerable. So um one of the things when I did some research was that I I came up with what I would summarize as as a unique aspect of your business is that you listen, you have to listen really well to the clients in order to understand what they want. Walk me through how you cultivate the aspect of listening to the clients and pulling out from them when they don't necessarily know what they want, and then how you navigate delivering a high result. So we start each project with a kickoff meeting where we walk the house or we'll do a Zoom because the house isn't built yet, whatnot. Um, but we just really talk to them about like what are their wants and needs, what do they like, what do they not like? Like tell us everything. Like if there's a certain color even that you don't like, or a shape that you don't like, or like, for example, we've had clients that like do a lot of traveling, and traveling is so important to them. So, like a lot of designing the house is around their travels, or maybe it's food or fashion. But try and understand the individual is really important. So that's like the first step. Then when we get that over with, we generate mood boards, which is essentially like picking the movie you want to watch. Like there's three different aesthetics that tell a story, and that client needs to give feedback on all of them, but essentially they pick one. So that really then gears you up to, okay, this is what they like, this is what's making them twitch, right? And then from there, it's a long process when you're working with these people. So you're getting you're truly getting to know them as you're talking to them and having conversations, like especially because of our business model and not being hourly charged. We have like just conversations with our clients, not even about, you know, work sometimes. Sometimes it's just about life. And a lot of being being an interior designer, I think, is also being a bit of a therapist. Sometimes these husbands and wives fight about things or they don't see eye to eye, or you know, one wants to do it this way, one wants to do it that way. So we one doesn't want to spend the money, one does. Yeah, we kind of have to get in the middle. And I think from the beginning, we build trust with our clients too. So, like when we were talking about things in the past, when you mess up on finances for a client, that automatically just crumbles the trust. It could be five dollars. Like it just automatically does. And then from that point, they start to not even question the money, they second guess, well, is that measurement even correct? Is that gonna fit in that? So you really have to develop the trust up front. And I think one of the reasons why a lot of clients do trust us, even without truly knowing us, is our social media presence is huge. We put it out there, we actually show ourselves so they feel already like they get to know us through that. Then on top of that, our confidence, I think when you have a ton of confidence in a genuine way and you're with a client, that makes them just trust you in general. Yeah. Like you, if you went to go see a doctor and your doctor was not confident about his work, wouldn't you be a little bit like, uh, maybe I'll go see somebody else? Sure. And it's not or if you're like at the doctor's and he's not listening to you and he's just on his computer. Like it's just we're fully engaged with our clients, like at all times. It's very personal. And we're there for them at any time. You know, we have certain, we try to have certain rules with like the texting and the calls. Some clients just need to text and call all the time. We're uh to you, yeah, yeah. To us, yeah. Got it. Yeah, and that's okay. I mean, listen, you gotta understand your client and what they need, and maybe it's like a two-second text message at you know, nine o'clock at night that you're like, oh, but if that's gonna make them happy, it's takes you two seconds to respond. Right, you know. You know, I um I don't remember where I picked this up, but one of the analogies that I heard was I think it was when US Airways was bought out by American and they said one of the first decrees from the CEO was no more coffee stains on the drop-down trays. If you sit in the plane and you drop down your tray and there's and it's dirty, that means the plane's dirty. Yeah, that means the engine's not maintained. 100%. And if you miss the small stuff, you miss the big stuff. I don't know if I'm attributing that correctly, but the concept totally resonated with me. And it's one of the things that when I'm leading my my team, I really emphasize get the small stuff right. Well, just especially the stuff that takes no talent. Yeah. Show up on time, uh-huh, pay attention, right? Do do the right stuff. I say that to our team too. I even say that about like emails, like the way that you write an email. Yeah, and and I'm not good at that at all. And that's why I'm thank God we have you know chat cheap tea now for all those reasons. But when my team is writing a sloppy email, that right there just shows you that the attention wasn't there. Yeah. And these clients are wanting the best of everything. Right. We always say give more. And actually, we do have a rule, like if clients um, if clients are waiting to hear back, like 24 hours, that's the the that's the maximum amount of amount of time to get back to someone. And if we don't hear back from, let's just say a vendor or a contractor, then we need to tell them we're still working on it, we haven't heard back, we hope to hear back by this time, etc. A no update update is an update. It is, but that's what we always say, right? The silence drives me absolutely baddy when I'm dealing with vendors or my mystery. Me too. It's so it's so rude. So I do all of our what we call quote unquote sales calls, and that takes a lot of time on my end to have the conversation, explain our process, send the contract, and then if they never respond, and then I follow up several times, it is a huge pet peeve, and I just find it to be so rude and don't worry about it. How do you deal with challenging clients? Oh gosh, uh line, some therapy for me. I know. Um, we I mean, we have each other, so we can we can bounce our madness and like Bear said, we go to lunch and we we try not to do it in front of our employees because that's not a good book. Um, but Bear and I just talk to each other constantly. Like we'll be on the phone after hours, like just figuring out ways to better the situation and how we're going to like take the bull by the horn and figure it out. We always say there's a solution. There's always a solution. And there is always a solution. It might not be the best solution, but there is one. And if there's a we will find out what the we'll figure out the best solution there is for us, for our clients, for everybody. I think the hardest thing is to not take it personally because it is such a you know that's one thing I have to constantly tell her. Yeah, but you get that way though, too. Look at Alina and Richard. They're not gonna watch it. Um, that was a very personally, I mean, I've you definitely took that. It's hard. Because you know the problem is it's such an intimate process. We started this from nothing. We are literally working to feed our families. True. We put in more energy into our projects than anybody does. We care more about our projects than anybody does. And so when something doesn't go right and you feel almost like personally attacked, it's almost impossible to not let it take over you. And in the beginning, it was very hard. It's gotten much easier as we've now become more seasoned, but there's still times where when your integrity is questioned, how do you not take that personally? I know it's business, but you're now coming after me as person. So it is really hard because at the end of the day, you're like, but I am this good person and I wanted these good things for your project, and I didn't do this that you're saying that I did. Like I wasn't dishonest. So that's that is hard. That's a very hard thing. What defines a good client for you? Someone who fully trusts, fully trust, doesn't second guess, friendly, kind, appreciative, appreciative, and has deep pockets. Yeah. Um just one and one that respects us. It's like it's that's a huge thing for us. And unfortunately, some of these clients, they really just don't. They just want their design. They're not sophisticated. They don't right, they don't understand. And a lot of people that don't understand the business think that, like, oh, they're just doing this, this, and this. They don't realize like honestly, how difficult this business truly is. Like, it really is not easy. It's not about design. Design is the easy part for us, it's the rest of it. It's the execution, the execution, management, the problem solving, problem solving, the the people, or having a firm, like having employees, like all of that. That is, it's it's extremely challenging. What's the most painful thing about having your business? Painful. I was gonna say not being where I want to be yet. Not satisfied where you are. Yeah. And do you have it? I feel it does, I feel the same. I mean, we all did these mood boards, the team, us, and vision boards. Vision boards for the year. Because last year it was a bit tricky, especially with you know, a lot of situations that happened with Bear, and everyone, everyone was very supportive with her, but it was just kind of like hardship after hardship after hardship, and then not having some of the most amazing clients, yeah, as well, like hardest clients, and some real great clients like that. Yeah, and it's just like that is draining, yeah. The having clients that are all those things that we didn't talk about, just non-stop draining. It really is, and it just like I need like at some point you're like, I need a I need a break from it, but you can't. So that is like one of the hardest things, and you know, just building the business for where we want to be. It's we're still young business. Um, and I know that we will be where we will want to be, but we're just not there yet. And it's not, I wouldn't say it's painful, I would just say we're eager and we're trying to manifest every day. So I I don't call I don't have that pain inside. Sleepless nights, I do. There is sleepless nights. It definitely triggers a lot of me though, as a child as a kid, because that's how I was as a kid. Like I knew what my destiny was, but I wasn't there yet. And it wasn't easy to get there. And like I know what our destiny is for this company. I know how good we can be, and I know we're not there. Like, we can be way better than where we are, even just our firm, like everyone and their responsibilities, the way we approach projects, but also like the projects that we should and hopefully we'll be getting as well. Like, I am so thankful for what we have, and we have a beautiful clientele base, but I'm I'm honestly never satisfied. Like, I always, even when that amazing client and that amazing project comes, I'm always thinking, okay, like what's next? So that's it's very hard for me because my brain just like doesn't it does not stop, it doesn't tune off. You ever fired a bad client? Yes, and we've also gotten fired by bad clients, right? It's not easy. Are you more selective now based on those experiences and who you want to work with? We are, but we like again, we speak to each other about it, but I always say, like, everyone talks about like red flag. The red flag doesn't really exist. Like, someone that has red flags that we decide the project's so good, we're gonna work with them, have been the best clients. The people that surprise us with those red flag qualities come later at time and it's too late. Like we've signed on some clients before where they just seem like they're gonna be the easiest, the best client, and then all of a sudden, like the rabbit jumps out of the hat and it's like all flags are coming. And it has been really difficult. Even when I do all these calls with people, it's like you can't really, you really can't tell. It's really, it is very challenging because some people that we've talked to in the industry are like, oh, I can totally, you know, call those red flags out right away. But honestly, like I feel like we haven't, but yes, we in terms of your question about being selective, I think we've gone to a place in our career where the type of client that is approaching us is not everybody. So we don't have to truly be that selective anymore because those clients are kind of just coming to us. It's not like we have this overwhelming amount of clients constantly coming that we're like going through the we, you know, whatever. Um, it's here and there because these budgets are not for everybody. Sure. So thankfully, we don't really have to like turn away clients per se. It's more about finding the right clients, structuring the right business, and those clients really connecting with you. Like, you know, there's a lot of jobs that come to us that sound amazing. Sometimes we don't get them. How do you balance the capacity of the team so that you don't buy? Off more than they can show. That that's a hard one. That's a very hard, hard thing that is always going to be hard for us because we true, we truly want to give our team the most that we can give them, like financially, um, supportive, like having time off, all those things. Like we we for what we can afford, we pay them the most so we can pay them. We give them the health insurance that we can give them. Um, but with all of that said, we always do more probably than what we can do. And because we're also a 50-50 partnership, that's a split 50-50 financially. We have to take on probably a lot more than maybe we should sometimes to pay for those bills. And that's just the that's just what it is. That's the nature of the beast. But that said, you know, Barrett's talking about we give them we give them a lot of time off, which is great. I mean, especially nowadays, that's what people want. They want to travel, they want to, you know, not work sometimes. Um, so we took that in consideration because that when they do work extra hours, which it's typically nine to five, it really is. Um, unless an email comes in and it's urgent and we're like, or there's a deadline or something. Or there's it, or there's a deadline. So not often, but sometimes we have these really, really amazing large spending clients, and they need a dime. They sign on, they're like, okay, can you have this done by this time? And we're saying we can do it, and then we have a pep talk with the team and say, This is one of those projects that we might have to work extra hours extra hours. We have a deadline, this is what it is, and whatever you have to do to get it done, we expect that you guys get it done. And guess what? You get rewarded because then you have extra days off. You have half days, you have happy hours with us, you have to we try to keep the culture really nice in the office the best that we can with still having like a boundary with our team. You know, it's so easy for us to like kind of cross that boundary. That's something I think in the beginning too. Like, I used to have a lot of anxiety about having our team and them not respecting us because we are very open. We talk about a lot. Yeah. We talk about our life. We, you know, party with them. We do all these things, and there is such a boundary there, and it's really, really hard if you cross it, and then that respect is gone. So we want great culture and we want our team to know that we have their back and we are their biggest cheerleaders. Like they are so their family to us, but at the same time, like the name on the door is our name on the door. So, like when the hard times come, like, you know, that's another thing. Like in the past, when we were growing so quickly and we were under a lot of pressure, you know, I think employees looked at us as being like bitches, as opposed to successful woman-driven entrepreneurs running this and wanting the best for them. They took it as like a negative thing. Um, and so that's something that does like weigh on me a lot. Is it challenging that the perception of an assertive female business owner is bitchy? Yeah. Versus you don't necessarily see that applied to men. With the same personality traits. Yeah, it's extremely challenging. It's a major insecurity of mine. Um, and it's definitely something that's hard because I'm never gonna change that. Like I'm always going to be that woman in business that is like a man. And but I also have the biggest heart, and the door is open. And if you're having a problem, you can come and talk to me. But when I want something done, I want it done and I want it done right. And that's it. There's no questions. I'm not being a bitch. I have a business to run and I'm paying you, and I want to pay you. So you are are you indicating that early in your career that you were more concerned with popularity, we're staying popular with the team, and that's changed, and you become more callous than the other. We definitely had like not the popularity, but we definitely had times word. We definitely had times though that we've just felt like they didn't respect us, they thought we were nasty. Um they wouldn't even say hi to us as we walked in the door in our office. But comments would be made on our end that they would take in a whole nother narrative. Like we would say something that to us was not an issue, and they would take that and spin it into this nasty, crazy spin-off. So I think finding the right personalities for your office is very difficult, but it's key into when you're hiring. We learned we definitely learned that. Yeah, you know. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think it it's difficult. Like even when my husband originally started his business, like he used to take his guys out to the bar all the time and they would have all these drinks and everything. And at some point the line was crossed. And then that had to stop. Yeah. You know, it's like if you want to be friends with them, yes, you care about them. We love every employee that we have. We want them to be there. We don't hire them and pay all this money because you know, we're just looking to get rid of them. But at the same time, like we like I said, our names on who gets the call, we get the call from the client when they're super angry. Or the ones that if we have to let someone go because we're not making enough money. Like it, you know, it's there's a lot of pressure. Yeah. One of the things that I've been working on is not to attribute malice where there's ambiguous communication. And I I found historically where I would read communication that was kind of unclear. Yep. And my mind would immediately go to I'm being attacked, they're attacking the firm, right? And then I'd say, wait, wait a second, let's just readdress, right? Is this written in such a way to deliberately attack me? Yeah. Is it right? Or is it just ambiguous? And if it's ambiguous, take the malice out and assume positive intent. Right. You're so right. I think with us, especially too, because we text with our team so much. You know texting can be read so many ways. I use full punctuation. I'm an old school, like, and I like uh the young people look at me like I've got three heads. Yeah. I use full sentences, I use full punctuation. It is a mini email to me. I'm not going to change that. My young uh team members will will shorten all the words. I refuse to adopt that. Um, and I don't care if that ages me. That's how I communicate. Um, and and maybe that's odd because I know text messages, especially for for the younger generation, it's a completely different medium, mode of communication. Um, but I I I refuse to adopt it that way. Yeah. No, I mean, in the past, they definitely took texts as like such negative like messages, and it was never that way. Like, if if we're truly upset about something, we're gonna let that person know, and not via text. Sure. So, you know, it is, it's but that's the thing. Like when you're owning a business and you have employees, like all your employees are different. And managing them is not easy. Managing all of that is not easy. How do you do dream analysis for the team? How do you understand what drives them and what motivates them? Well, I think this vision board was a it was a first, like I've done them in the past just personally, but like as a team, individually doing them and then reviewing them with them. So, like one on one. Yeah, Christine and I reviewed each vision board with them one-on-one. And I think that was really nice because it kind of did bring things to us that maybe we didn't know about them. And it was nice to see their drive and passion for certain things in the business and what where their mind was and what they would like to see. Um, but we also do a lot of um, not a lot, but we do a fair amount of um just team bonding. Like even a few days ago it was my birthday, and every year for both of our birthdays, Christina and I, we do a big celebration with the team. Yeah. And it's not because we're like, oh, it's my birthday. We're celebrating my birthday, but it's more like this team experience, and they get to experience something a little bit more personal with us. Yeah. Um, so I think just having those little moments of, you know, personal growth with them is nice to truly understand like kind of what makes them tick and also giving them the time off because I think to be a good creative creator, you need to be able to go experience life and travel. Well, I very much appreciate the conversation and for you guys coming on the show. And uh, if you have any parting wisdom for my daughters, uh I would love uh offline communication. I'd like to make an intro there and uh have you talk to them. Um, we have a a dancer as well. Oh, really? Yeah. I spent a lot of time at luck with that one in a dance studio and a soccer player. So we're I'm a soccer player too. Yeah, so we're spending a lot of time. We high I f I high-five my wife in the driveways. We're shuttling back into the city. It's a carpool. Oh, yeah. It's intense. No, I think like it's so important, and I tell my boys all the time, like, I really don't care what they do and what they want to like eventually be in life. I just want them to be passionate about what they're doing because I think having the passion is what makes you successful. Like my dad always told me, you don't go into business thinking automatically all the money that you're gonna make. Right. You go into it because you're passionate about it, and that's why you started your business. And my husband just recently has acquired a new business, and I finally see passion in him about it. And I have no idea whether it's gonna be successful or not, but like to see him passionate and talking to me about it in a passionate way is successful to me, you know? And so I want I want that for my kids, whether they're driving a truck or they're some big CFO or CEO or whatever it is, I want to see that passion and the drive in their eyes and in their conversation. Yeah, that's really the best, I think. Thank you both. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having us. One easy thing you can do is like, comment, subscribe, share this with somebody that might find this interesting. We appreciate your support as you come on our journey. Thank you.