Mwanamke Ni Pawa

Resistance comes at a cost. Through Asha’s story, this episode explores activism, grief, and resilience while asking what true allyship looks like and how both men and women can stand together for change.

Transcript

SPEAKER_13 0:02

This episode contains sensitive content that may be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

SPEAKER_11 0:27

Previously, on off script.

SPEAKER_16 0:30

How do you tell your parents?

SPEAKER_17 0:31

No, but in a respectful way.

SPEAKER_13 0:50

Coming up on this episode, Makenna takes it to the campus at the University of Nairobi and asks the students, what part should men actually play in the fight for women's safety? We then tap and revisit raw moments from MTV Sugar Mashariki and Gen Free, where fiction hits close to home. And later, Mushina sits down with Fidel, who grew up surrounded by feminism and still had to unlearn a few things. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_17 1:25

This is Mushina Malomba.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

And Makenaka. We are off screw.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Really? I did my okay school.

SPEAKER_17 1:46

So we are happy to be here today. We're having quite a number of conversations. It's about solidarity, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:55

Who ran the world? Girls.

SPEAKER_17 1:58

You had conversations with a few people who are your go?

SPEAKER_04 2:03

Kama kawa kamadawa. I was the Alibad. Nilwana oliza. Madame, if they think we need men in this fight that we are fighting as women, we are fighting very many social issues regarding um consent, rape, uh, femicide, all these things. Yeah. So I was asking the babes, do they think we need boys in this fight? What was the reality? One thing that they said, and I totally agree with them, is this fight cannot be won alone.

SPEAKER_17 2:35

Alone.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

And then to to Ambiane, which is the way forward. And there's one babe that I spoke to, and she's a bit older, so to really glad to see that we were on the same page now. Yeah, come ahead, and the only way we can bridge this gap that we have between men and women is by having conversations. And she feels like men are not helping in the fight because most of the times they don't know what we are going through, yeah. Which may not be 100% true. They may not know, okay. Um, I don't think you can miss the fact that women are being killed and the femicide movement that has been there. But I think what they do not feel like why many men are not eager to join in the fight is because the fight has been presented as nikituya, wanawake. I mean something that is so far from you, you know.

SPEAKER_17 3:33

That's really funny when you say that because most of the femicide guesses that we have in this country, it has been orchestrated by the men, right? We've seen women being killed in this country, and it's because of the men. So when uh when I say Matiwanaume, how are you, or they'd not understand, it baffles me because I'm like, what do you mean? That the men who are killing these women, the reasons the men are actually putting out there. I'm like, really? You have the reason to talk to them as yet in China, maybe shortcut, or you have seen one like grandmothers being raped. You have seen that. You understand what was the reason of that? You've seen small children being sexually assaulted. Is it a small scat? No. So of course, men should be involved. And also, I sat down with a very interesting guy today, uh Nato Fidel, I'll call an ambia about you know how he was raised by a woman who was a feminist.

SPEAKER_05 4:18

Okay, you told me that the stepmother was a big thing.

SPEAKER_17 4:20

Yes, the stepmother was a feminist. Alcohono fine wana wume, bona ni piki, bona ninge calling your chef yombo. But her the mother taught her from early on, even if it's we all can do.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Oh no, no, no, to keep say ma like that boy like Fidelia. See Etihadui Aneza or Shaviombo. See Etihajui, Aneza take care of himself, Ama Aneza pika. He knows the same way other men know that other men are killing women. That's the thing. The thing is, I'm saying we've not brought it here. It's not a conversation we've had, we've not brought it close to home. In a katunikama kitonyekofa for another. And it's crazy because for a man to be able to resonate with a woman, even Nikiwa Ulisa, even the men that I asked them, they agreed that they should join the fight. And when I asked them why, the only reason a man could resonate and feel a woman is a human being that needs to be protected, is if he sees that woman as a sister, as a cousin, as an auntie, as a mother, because you know they are like our sisters. You know, you know, he's like my brother. No, he's just a human being.

SPEAKER_17 5:31

What baffles me is the fact how we disassociate ourselves with this issue, especially as men. It's like we are not part of it. And I was raised by women. Tango 1994. So I was raised by women, I was raised by aunties, I was raised by my mom, my grandmother. So for me, I women, my my my the women around me, they're like queens. Yes. They taught me exactly what there will be no Mushina if it was not for my aunties and my mother.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

You don't see them as niwale, ni or human things because you actively interacted with them. You have seen women can be wise. That's why I'm saying we really need to talk, you know, because even as women, I cannot explain to you, Mushina, that I have a right to live if I'm not having conversations with you. I also have to be able to have a conversation with you. Because if it we are like a sister, okay, they are not your sister, they are not your mother, they are just a person. Do they not deserve to be protected?

SPEAKER_17 6:36

You know what? Let me say this. I feel like because growing up, most men ilikua usake nawanawake, we're not going to be able to do that. I don't think most men really understand women.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

And what you've done is you can only see a woman in a sexual sense. Because if I want to play, I'll play with a boy. If I need help, I'll ask for help from a boy. If it's homework, I'll do homework with the boy. If it's anything we're doing, we're doing with boys. The only time girls will come into play anytime for Katiana. Then we want our egos to be reboosted is when girls will come into play. So that is why it's very difficult to see this person as a human being and not as an object. And even the men, because there are men who are nice and they believe that we do have rights, but many men have been silent as being neutral. You know, and being silent is not being neutral. That's true. Being silent is taking a side, you have chosen the side to not fight with the women. That's true. Being silent is not neutral.

SPEAKER_17 7:32

Don't confuse the you as especially men in the audience right now. Do you feel the need to be involved in feminism?

SPEAKER_04 7:40

We're very honest. Also, if you feel like machine femicide, like me as a token, don't kill us. So if you feel like I'm feeling supportive, we're saying to support, but when I even too much, also tell us and tell us why.

SPEAKER_13 8:05

Everyone's got a take. Let's see what the people have to say.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

So when it comes to issues that affect women in society, do you think that it is important for men to help, or do you think it is a must for men to help so that change can come about?

SPEAKER_15 8:21

Um, on this aspect, I wouldn't say someone is obligated to help, but based on your conscience, you should know what is right and wrong as an adult.

SPEAKER_08 8:29

Yeah, issues are madims and affect because you know we all have sisters. Yeah. And you have to care for them just the way you care for your sister. Okay, too. You know, take it as if ni sister go.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

But I mean, I say I'm kidding, Ivanji. It will be possible.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

If we in a positive way in a society, on my side and your support. But come in a negative way, definitely sister.

SPEAKER_18 9:00

Mimi Kuangu, atomina bianga kinulisa, nameleziang everything. Now being understandabelo 200, now you have to what we will.

SPEAKER_13 9:21

Sour, that's the vibe qua ground. Now check this out. Here is a moment from Sugar Mashariki. So, let's get back into it. Heard anything on this episode that you want to talk about in a safe, private, and judgment-free space? Chat naosema Nami chatbot on WhatsApp, number ni 0758-919709. He, Ni one-on-one, take a listen.

SPEAKER_17 10:58

We want to talk about feminism, and uh there's something interesting that you told me earlier. You're raised by a feminist. Yes. How was that? How was it growing up as uh as a guy who's raised by a woman who is a staunch feminist?

SPEAKER_09 11:12

Yes, first of all, it was it was difficult by the for me to endure that environment. Because I I was born and raised in a patriarchal community. Yeah. She has struggled by the way to fight the patriarchal community. I've been brought up in Kibra. And as you know, Kibra is one of the communities in a male chauvinism.

SPEAKER_17 11:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_09 11:33

It was very difficult for me to adjust from being raised in this community where there is a lot of male dominance coming to a home where my my father got married to a feminist woman.

SPEAKER_17 11:48

Feminist woman, yeah. You know? Yeah. Now you understand these things.

SPEAKER_09 11:51

I was I was born by another woman who is my biological mother. But I came and found my father, and he showed a feminist.

SPEAKER_17 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 12:01

So it was difficult for me to adjust the environment. Like difficulties, for example. Like as a boy, there are some gender norms that we say ni automatically.

SPEAKER_17 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 12:14

Like, boys should always be tough. Boys should not do the house chores, ama kufuwa. We were fighting, like, I was seeing, like, she was attacking me, trying to teach me that also boys can do this. Like, you can share your chores. To me, I was finding it kamamatesa. But with time, perspective, it's gonna be different feminism. Yeah. Because I came to find out, even most feminists around Kenya, most of them ni sexists. Only a few of them konajaribuku could live the dream of feminism.

SPEAKER_17 12:44

Do you think, like, now what you've just said, feminism, especially in this country, it's misunderstood?

SPEAKER_09 12:50

Yes. Initially, it was supposed to champion for equality. Dio, kuna some aspect of equity ta equaba priorities. Equality, I feel, they should prioritize women. They should also focus on the equality, which is the main agenda in the feminism.

SPEAKER_17 13:04

You have said something, I think, on the lens of you think women should have the responsibility to educate the men on what feminism is and all that. Why do you think that responsibility should fall on the women?

SPEAKER_09 13:15

First of all, we can never educate ourselves because we found this system that was created. It was created by man.

SPEAKER_17 13:22

By a man, okay.

SPEAKER_09 13:23

The system, revolution is its own children. It's the same as the system. Man ali create system in the man a system in a weezi jijataya. Akini wanna make system anesa another educated, a connection exposure, an eza jitataya. So, most of the men of society called Chili. Yes, we are trying to fight champion for equality, feminism. You are empowering women economically so that as independent wanawomen, at least another issue. But there is a head, we wanna women in a kwa building. Yes, it is good wanawaki wana ku empowered, but also we should try and consider to engage wana woman forums so that wakuna idea is quite most of the men knows that feminist women are the enemies. They don't understand feminism. That's the problem. But if women could come out and let men also understand feminism in heavy, even at least your chukita poa.

SPEAKER_17 14:23

I'm really curious to know what your perception is, especially now from what your mother used to teach you.

SPEAKER_09 14:28

I actually don't have I don't have any issue on such. Because even when we go back home, yeah, I have I have my two sisters and my two brothers. When you go back home, we share our choice equally.

SPEAKER_17 14:47

And also I want to know about the roles that the men should play, especially in dismantling those systems. The role Ghanaian you wanna wanna wanna wanna play to dismantle those systems so that we can be both equal.

SPEAKER_09 15:00

The thing wanna wanna fajin is that they lower their ego. Most of the men are very arrogant and they are very proud, like yeah, man. Feminism, I feel it's about love. Because my mother is a feminist, a stent one, fighting patriarchy. But when you go back home, when a lot of love being shared in that home, like post-cost that is like, yeah, yeah, and I show feminism qua perspective. Many feminist women have a part of married. Because Babu, they don't even think about men. Any men call it trash.

SPEAKER_17 15:29

There's there's that hatred. For lack of a better word, yeah, hatred. There's that hatred. Okay. But to my mom, I communicate hatred and I communicate love. So there have been quite a number of actually feminism matches in Nairobi. Have you joined them? Do you consider yourself as a feminist?

SPEAKER_09 15:44

I've joined them, I've joined a lot of feminist matches. Yeah. I've worked in a feminist organization. I I consider myself as a feminist.

SPEAKER_17 16:00

Do you get to tell your peers?

SPEAKER_09 16:02

I engage my friends to kill a shule. Yeah. To nagea, and different perspectives are too. But yo, we have a very long time. Long way to go, yeah. Because we still have boys who are not going to be able to do it. Like, partnership. See, Lazima wonome domination. Why should I do that?

SPEAKER_17 16:33

Yeah. I feel like with people like you, we're gonna make this country a better place. Thank you so much, as anti sign up for the conversation.

SPEAKER_13 16:42

This is the off script podcast. Hiya, back to the convo.

SPEAKER_14 16:48

Hi, I'm Dab. For me, I'll say uh I'll support women. Why? Uh, one, because I believe we all have different strategies of dealing with issues. I'm talking this as an advocate now. Uh, what I've done talking about the issue about femicide and everything, based on my information and what I do, I do writing. So I published an opinion piece about that issue that's raising awareness.

SPEAKER_17 17:13

Thank you so much. Also, online, especially online presence right now, it's a big deal. People are talking about femicide. I would sing women saying, like, hey, where are the men? Monawanome story, where the women are the ones who are making noise online. Yeah. If you go a katiako, slash em munekopale mona onge. Yeah, not so many men were speaking out. Yeah. The men when you're not a big followership or makeup in a maza.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

And even those that support the movement still don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_12 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

Why, why, why? Nanya Panizatuanbea, one guy.

SPEAKER_12 17:42

Hello. So, my name is Roy. We na feel as if boy childika. In a way, yundina fanya unapata. Like wataki kuingia kuahiju, ma boizwa kuapi. So, me personally, I feel kuko na nidiam. Let us heal the boy child and then protect the ladies. Inasmuch as to na advocate for madem ju. Enyo kweli wwanakapitiya na wanaka pitiya for real for real. But pia kukona nidia ku raise awareness. Kunavitu ze nya ma boizu wana pitiya. Na yetu hawapatizo spaces. Ukiangalia like right now. Enda ma bookla, madem duameja uko. Ma boys wameenda wapi. Una cheki easy spaces mingi mingi vi unapata ma boys ninga meanza ku saolika. And I think one of the biggest thing yen nyadi yuen wameanza ku realize, koyo goliao ya gender equality, wwalianza kuempa ma dem wa kasawa ma boys. Soapondu inaku inakwanika ma tu me weponize ma boys karibu wate. From an early age boys akoza like muje ma boys wana kwanga ma umbua wanaumen ywa nyama. Yet awunma boys manze like I make sense. So, me I feel as if kukonayo ni dia ku create awareness. Acha to kill my boy to to skin ninindo mnapitiya, yeah? And then after that, piacha to protect the ladies.

SPEAKER_04 18:46

It is true, but we cannot pose one, concentrate on the other, and then when this one is done, we unpose this other one. Sindo. So, what I would suggest we do is we have to be there for one another all the time. So, if today we are showing up for a girl, to nashikana m corner of city water to nena to show up for the girl. If Jioni China to me to a girl to naskia, kijana amepigua na de miyake, to no shikana tana mukono to naenda uko because we are all going through problems simultaneously.

SPEAKER_17 19:18

You say something quite important. Let's heal the boy child. And the the start of healing, it comes through communication. Yes. And you'll find from the different episodes we talked about how men find it very hard to actually communicate and open up and talk about their issues. So na patamutu akuna Mambozake bottled up.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_17 19:41

So I think we should find ways how we can be able to let boys communicate. I don't know how, but we need boys to talk more.

SPEAKER_04 19:49

Also, the other thing we wanted to ask, the way we are fighting, it's because there's so many injustices everywhere. So the moment to speak up after every injustice, unaka hey. You can't take a break and like enjoy life and just laugh unaga. Okay. You risk looking like you're a bit too much. Too much. So now let me ask the boys, yeah. Unaza dates demon yeah, very outspoken. Openly, feminist. Do you feel as a boy?

SPEAKER_17 20:26

I just thought I'd be kidding me. Kill as you go.

SPEAKER_05 20:51

Why?

SPEAKER_14 21:01

So to na support nini. So uh tuna tuna faku break the information kwama nyumba zetu na wato we to. And then from hapo to takwa to me feel to go involved. Sana siatini, kuja to kuka space, andapata already kunavitu jany zime shafa nika, and then mimi na kuja like so ku support ndiotunio nekanekamonome. I want to be involved from the beginning of it.

SPEAKER_07 21:29

Outspoken, kun outspoken, kun outspoken, afkun outspoken.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

So na taka outspoken.

SPEAKER_07 21:35

Ah, yo zie, you see na folk outspoken, transition geo. There should be a transition geo. So I always sit fill asiku. Some people lose themselves into it. So Pia Mimi night time.

SPEAKER_10 21:53

Okay, Mimi Kwanzaa. Si feel poor watwa kissema. The reason why is if femicides it and learn, men wait. I feel Kama girls have been overempowered. You cannot kill someone because you feel like they have been empowered more than you. It is not a competition of who is more empowered between the man and the boy. Treat this as a crime because it is. Nakamu menya maza webeniya complice. So the best cause of action, ni watuwaonge, and then tuacha idibetya who is more empowered than who. At the end of the day, it's about creating equal spaces, not more spaces for women than men. The message is equal spaces for men and women. And then on dating, wana wume, date your type. Wata kukuja, ume ni toko manamano, a lafu nataka kuya kunyamen ni nya mother nisyunge. Nita unge. Nisa muende kwa chyba. Una kuta demuko waklub kwa shere, a lafu nataku mwambe we can ka home. No, date your type. Sisu wakuange mutu wata tu wonge. Wa ukitaka, uki taka soft lady, mwanyanaka home na unge. Wa kopiya, go for those ones.

SPEAKER_17 22:59

There's something, especially the competition. Why should there be a competition between the men and the women? And we are all suffering. Yeah, we are all suffering. We're going through the same same things as you what you had said earlier. We call it these matches, men should join in. Yeah, come. Women should join in. She's so we need to be solidarity.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

And like he has said, um, our good friend here is an advocate. He has said that one thing that have taken home is men, some men don't want to join in a fight that they think has already started.

SPEAKER_17 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

But what we can say is please come, you are very much welcome. If I see Pekeetu, everyone is welcome here. We have space for everyone. And if you're there and you know a man who would love to join, but they are clueless, they don't know what to do. Educate femicide. Tell them what femicide is. Tell them it is a crime, tell them why it is a crime because everyone has the right to live.

SPEAKER_17 24:00

And don't be silent. And don't be silent. You have a smaller sibling, you need to uh let them know, especially about the equality. So we are equal. Everyone, yes.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

And what we've learned today is we need to listen to each other and communicate because being understood, and I love to say, being understood, first you have to listen. Listening is part of being understood. So may have a good time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Off script.

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Coming up next on off script. Not fitting in is one thing, but also not being able to fit in with people that you consider close, it's another level of pain.

SPEAKER_17 24:38

If you're in church, they have their belief system. Yeah.

SPEAKER_13 25:02

Heard anything on this episode that you want to talk about in a safe, private, and judgment-free space? Chat Naosema Nami chatbot on WhatsApp, number ni0758-919709.