We listen, we don't judge

Why are women judged more harshly by society and each other? Through Nyokafi’s journey, this episode unpacks purity culture, internalised patriarchy, and what it really takes to unlearn judgment and choose empathy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_15 0:02

This episode contains sensitive content that may be triggering for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised.

SPEAKER_12 0:27

Previously, on off script, I don't think most men really understand women.

SPEAKER_15 0:46

Coming up on this episode, McKenna asked the students at Eagerton University in Nakuru something we've all felt but rarely say out loud. Have you ever felt like you just didn't fit in? We then tap and revisit raw moments from MTV Sugar Mashariki and Gen Free, where fiction hits close to home. And later, Mushina sits down with Samuel, who knows what it's like to live between worlds and be judged by all of them. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_07 1:21

This is Mushina Malomba.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

And Makenakahuha. Welcome to On Live Screen.

SPEAKER_07 1:31

So happy to be here at Egaton Unity.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Do you guys have a name for your school, like a cool name?

SPEAKER_07 1:36

I mean it's just Igaton. I love it. Today we have been here, we've been having really amazing conversations. Yes. And uh we have been talking about double standards. Double standards. Trying to fit in.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

And fitting in.

SPEAKER_07 1:54

You talk to so many people.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

I talk to so many people. And actually, young people are having a really hard time trying to fit in with their peers, with their family, with society, in their workplaces. And for some people, it starts when they're quite young. Some people in a manifest, especially when they join campus, when gine form one. It was interesting stories.

SPEAKER_07 2:17

Even for me, I met with a guy who says, you know, he's he's a religious guy, he's into church, but also, you know, he is with his boys who, you know, they drink, but also he works for an organization. I'm bono glam, boy, your sex education, abortion. And the kids, of course, they do not want to associate with such, right?

SPEAKER_03 2:35

One thing is like not fitting in is one thing, but also not being able to fit in with people that you consider close or people who are supposed to be so close to you. I think it's another level of pain. Because I was talking to this babe and she was telling me how um the time that she felt like she wasn't fitting in is when it was a family situation. Because there you see the way like older people could be having some beef or something, and it's not being addressed. So there's just some tension here. But your story we slept it under the rug, and let's move on, like a kunaki to echo. And when she wants to address the issue, in a kwa um totako rude. And then now they'll just segregate you and the kufi, like, guys, really, I was just trying to get to the bottom of this. I'm trying to stand up for myself. Yeah, and I was really proud of her for standing up for herself and what she believed, even though it costs time.

SPEAKER_07 3:33

It is very important to honestly call out even parents or elders whenever you see when I say makituenya, you're like, but that this doesn't make sense. You as a as a as a as an adult, as a young person, you also have your own virtues, you understand yourself. And it is uni to be able to speak out and call out adults when when you know they do something wrong. I think it's quite important.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

But also, Mishina, when do we draw the line and say, okay, ini ku kwa true to yourself, na e ni ku kwa na double standards. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:02

I think it takes so much time to before you get to that point where you say you have found a balance. Especially now if you're in church, they have their belief system. Yeah. Right? Uku kwa kukunyuapia, cansa kwambia u skunywe. So of course it's gonna be that uh really broad line. It is about finding a balance which is hard. When the person was talking to a linyambia, he's still trying to find that balance. Because what wanna say this other side says, oh yeah, we have this other side. Yeah. It's supposed to be on this side.

SPEAKER_03 4:36

Yeah, inside.

SPEAKER_07 4:37

So it is very hard, I think, to find that balance. That balance.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

Maybe the best way to navigate that is to just know that there's nothing that is black or white. You know nothing is purely clean or purely evolution. If it's like this, it's like this, I'm just like this. In life, there's so many grey areas.

SPEAKER_07 4:57

But creating also that's like sort of uh space where there's love, not judgment. It's now creating a space for them to feel their seen and to find themselves actually.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Yeah. And when you create your environment, yeah, okay, I might not understand it. I don't know where you're coming from. Yeah. But I won't judge you. I'll come with love and I'll create that environment where you add yourself, maybe with time, ni takwelewa. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:26

I feel I would want to ask the audience uh if there is any particular point or experience in your life that you felt that you haven't fit in, and how was the reception from your friends or from the community around you? Was it well received? Was there a laugh? Mama, were you judged about it? Please let me know.

SPEAKER_15 5:46

Everyone's got a take. Let's see what the people have to say.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Is there a time in your life where you felt like Nikama how fit in? And where was that?

SPEAKER_10 5:56

As I grew up, I finally realized that I have my own kind of cool, my way are kind of cool. Yeah, some people may find it cool, others don't find it cool. I realized you can fit in in some places and other places you just won't fit in, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

When I was in my attachment, I experienced some sort of bullies. I felt I was so young.

SPEAKER_14 6:14

I'm passionate with music, but when to Lumaliser, I was told to do agriculture instead of music. Coming to school, trying to fit with uh the people doing agriculture.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

Okay, it was it was a bit difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

In my high school, every person had a best friend. Yeah. And they used to call each other Bafafas.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

Oh Bafafa for BFF. Yeah, yeah. Okay, but you you were not able to make friends then.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Such that I could have someone that I could call Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

That was this time. I used to have some friends who came from a rich family. Okay. And me, I'm from just a middle background family. So it wanna depend qua most of the time. But uh this time they decided to cut me off in order to go.

SPEAKER_15 6:59

So that's the vibe qua ground. Now check this out. Here is a moment from sugar mushroom.

SPEAKER_08 7:14

Of course not.

SPEAKER_17 8:22

Please no, no, please, no, nothing.

SPEAKER_09 8:27

No, you were right. I shouldn't have jumped into conclusions. In fact, that isn't it. I got defensive. But please can we just give this another chance?

SPEAKER_17 8:54

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_15 9:10

Sour, let's get back into it. Heard anything on this episode that you want to talk about in a safe, private, and judgment-free space? Chat na our Semanami chatbot on WhatsApp, number ni 0758-919709. He, ni one-on-one, take a listen.

SPEAKER_07 9:42

Now, uh, from the conversation we're having today, it's about double standards. And you had a story to share with us.

SPEAKER_05 9:49

Yeah, so growing up, uh, when I finished high school, there's that stage where before you transition to campus, to join campus. I have friends that I I relate with. Uh, they are we have grown with them from way back when we were kids. So, of course, there's that age where you engage in uh nakunyote, you drink alcohol. Uh baza from four. Yeah. Then uh you have girls, of course. Boys challenge you, your fellow friends challenge you to go out with girls because uh it's we have just cleared high school. Yeah. But now I had also a religious background from my parents, uh, which was very strict and there's a way I was taught. Yeah, uh, there are certain things that you shouldn't do, and also going to church regularly. Yeah, there are certain principles that I was taught. That's true. Yeah, so it was kind of uh hard to get into it because uh I'm struggling. On Sundays, I have to be in church. During the week I have to my boys. My boys. And now they see me going to church on Sundays because I don't join them in the Sherehe and the parties on Sundays. Then they don't go to church? Yes, they totally totally. Okay. But I really like them. I like their company, I like their vibes, I like their energy. So uh during the week they would tell me, ah, you guys, you you are pretending because you go to church and you are with us here. So you you church guys are not good because you do the same things that I do. You drink alcohol, you go out with girls. We do the same things, but on Sunday, you go you go to the church. You go to the church. So stop pretending. At first, some of them were very straight with me. They were telling me, stop pretending and just stop going to church. But now I knew there's a God somewhere uh because maybe of that deep-rooted uh bringing up the Christianity. Yes, yes. So, and even currently, right now, when we are doing these programs uh with the young people, of course, there are certain sensitive topics that we handle in the community, like abortion, like pornography, the whole sex relationships, yeah, which are very controversial, and when we go to church as Christians, uh this is the way we are taught that these things are bad. You shouldn't even hear it from a Christian doing it from the pulpit, the way the pastor tells us. You get judged also. Yes, yes. So it's also a struggle working in the community in this space because it's something that I really love. It's a passion working in the community and young people, these are the things that young people face.

SPEAKER_07 12:40

So that's it. I would I would uh and this question is quite uh um stucky swelling, it can be controversial. But do you get feel do you feel more judged from the religious uh side or from this other side? Let's say pandewakwa kazi, pandewakwa your friends, you talked about your friends. Where did you feel like you you you're feeling so much judged?

SPEAKER_05 13:04

Uh I would say from the church side I feel more judged because I think they don't really appreciate what young people are facing in the community. Because you know, I work from Monday to Saturday. Yeah. So you meet with people each and every day. And these young people, they go through the same things. Yeah. They they engage in early sex, they engage in alcoholism and drug abuse. But now when you go to church, there's certain ways, there's there's a certain way they preach. Abstinence, don't do this, don't do this. But they have sexual beings, their bodies. So I think from the church side, it's where they judge us more.

SPEAKER_07 13:45

And when people expect you to choose, unapata, let's say, for example, from your religious side, they'll say, ah, we chaguatu bakikua canisa. I'm from your work side, they'll say, we want to just took, religious, or even your boys, right? Uh, what is it they are misunderstanding about your journey?

SPEAKER_05 14:04

I think what they are misunderstanding is uh from a Christian background, uh, when you when you understand that you have certain values and there's a God somewhere. Yeah. And it is that God that has made you to be where you are. So, in as much as I will do the earthly things, but at the end of the day, I will go back to my senses and say, I need to appreciate God because He's the one that has made me to be who I am. He's generally what has made me to be the person that I am today. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 14:37

I'm I'm I'm curious to know what is your uh what is your balance look like right now? Do you feel more balanced right now? Kambo Koko Kanisa Indio. Akipuna fana mamozako. Do you feel like you're balanced even with your work in a canisa? Do you still get those sort of umavuto o kuna uku ama you have that balance?

SPEAKER_05 14:53

I I would say no. I don't have a balance yet. Because I really want to work. It's my passion. It's my passion working in the community. And of course, I'll have to go to church on Sunday. Yeah. I will just listen. So nowadays, what I do, I just go to church, I listen. Uh the service ends. I do, I do, I play my part of praising, paying tithe, and doing everything. But I go back to my passion during the rest of the week and teach young people on these things about the community.

SPEAKER_07 15:23

Do you feel affected when somebody gets to say, ah, where's Samuel Banaw? Yes. You don't feel very bad.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

Yeah, deep down I feel very bad that they don't understand me. That there's a place that I'm coming from. So deep down I feel bad, but I say, ah, I have to move on. It's life. Yes. I love that.

SPEAKER_07 15:44

Thank you so much. Thank you. And uh Santisana for your journey, bro.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

I wish you nothing but the best. Thank you, Mishina. Half cast, half cast. Oh, really? Same. Serious? Yeah. Ah, nice.

SPEAKER_07 16:00

My dad is kicking, my mom is here. Ah, nice only half cast, half cast, serious.

SPEAKER_15 16:06

This is the off script podcast. Hiya, back to the convo.

SPEAKER_12 16:11

So initially, I never used to associate with a lot of people in my first and second year of campus. At times, I will say no to alcohol, and my friends will be like, ah, wait, quite already guard, we kwa namke. Though it's my personal obligation whether to drink or not.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_12 16:30

I don't indulge with women or men. I need that space for myself as a man. I have a lot of things to think about. The moment that comes in with friends, it becomes an issue.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Wanakuliza, you're not even being judged by the norm holders who are like the parents and the pastors and the people in authority. And it's more painful when you're being judged by your peers. Yes, yeah. So I had to ask, especially my deam.

SPEAKER_07 16:55

Why do girls judge each other so harshly?

SPEAKER_16 16:58

So a friend of mine, like to mezoya ku hang out, kawaida, ivi, kidego, kidoku I may change. I change a kakwa ji. I mean, I may change a kaza kuka na wababa. So I was like, what is not happening? I told my sister that story. Then my sister was like, she's a counselor, so she told me, you've become uh like a respectability police. Like bona unaza kufkiria, like bitwa na panya ni baya. Usifi kiriye about her situation in a moral state. Like firiya in humanity. What what if it were you? Like, who do you kiti member like a palio? Yeah. So like instead of judging from a moral state, like judge from a humanity point. No, no. Yeah, so I thought.

SPEAKER_07 17:39

And also I feel like sometimes when you get to judge someone, where when you have your own contradictions that you're battling with. Yeah, yeah. So when you're pointing your finger at a monieo, you have your own thing. So sometimes they usually say it's good to judge someone from a human perspective.

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Yeah, and props to your sister for even giving you. And for you even to say this right here. And even learning and being like, okay, maybe ni mekwa na angle baya, and you did what we just said, come with like create an environment of love. Yeah. Niki kwa, nikiko approach na love instead of judgment. Then I will see, okay, maybe it's a financial situation that has pushed her here. How can we resolve this? You know, maybe it's home that is pushing her to this act like this. How can we fix that? And that's really good. Thank you for that.

SPEAKER_16 18:25

Yeah, so literally, whatever you're saying, that's what my sister told me. Like she told me, like, who do we kid? Like you literally know. So I can be like, just go tell her. Like, I felt this and this way. But like I understood like why you did that. Yeah. I don't know your reasons. If you're comfortable, you can tell me, but if you're not, that is okay. Yeah. But whatever you're doing, like, I'm not judging anymore. Okay. Like, and I felt like I was at peace with myself. Like, she's my friend.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Just dressing up.

SPEAKER_07 19:13

In my final buka, I feel like also social media plays a role. In this, like, it's like social media amplifies this thing where we have to pick a side to make you a little more. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. So it comes to the stiango fake. You don't come to the human level and be like, wait, you're my friend, Makenas. I know you. Yeah. What do you understand? Social media is so polarizing. Utah summer comments. Your woman kissed you, nanny, and then you sort of like pick a side just by you reading comments.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Actually, now that you say that, and then you had your own opinion. Your mind had already formed an opinion of the video. But then when you go to the comments, then now your opinion shift and it's like two sounds.

SPEAKER_07 20:07

That is so true.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

It's true, actually, what you say. Social media does play. Yeah. Does play a really good idea.

SPEAKER_07 20:13

I feel like we need to get to that point where we create space for our friends and communities to be able to, you know, talk visually, I mean openly, have open conversations. But let's come from a place of love always.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

From her example, is like when you have been oppressed, you become the oppressor. So now if you're coming from a background where you're being judged by your parents, by your peers, nini. So Piawe, it's like you almost have it in your subconscious. So na kwangaliana judgment. Because you should be doing better because you have experienced this. Why are you not doing better? Anyone who can give us an example of where the person was being oppressed, and around.

SPEAKER_07 21:05

It's like hurt people, hurt people.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Hot people, hurt.

SPEAKER_07 21:07

So you are hurt, and for some reason now you turn it back to hurt other people.

SPEAKER_13 21:11

Yes. So meant uh example, yeah. Most plus size women in the society, once I may lose that weight, I'm about to haja lose it, and then only someone more confident in their plus size body. And then I'm about some something very fitting, something very uh, you know, onesha, cleavage, everything. Ata kwa like, uh, you mean you can be that confident the same body here? Girl, we must go down together. So utapata are pull down like that's so indecent, he'll high-fi, you know, it's not covering you up. Utapata, I'm the oppressor because they have been oppressed in some way or the other.

SPEAKER_07 21:50

I relate to that because I know for a while. It's so squeezing. Nikiona m to I I see fat first.

SPEAKER_06 21:57

Like I'm projecting.

SPEAKER_07 22:00

Yeah, because I've been called that now when I get to sit, I'm like, oh, now we can't.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Yeah, be open-minded to call it eh. And yeah, we have I was the one on the just take taking that accountability, I think it's also very important.

SPEAKER_07 22:20

Yeah, it's very important to me that. This has been the off script.

SPEAKER_15 22:29

Coming up next on off script.

SPEAKER_03 22:31

Do you know kunakiana haba? And at handi kiwangwa kitanda, and a yangaliana sketch of kitu.

SPEAKER_06 22:39

Oh no wanna kanam wen zako and a chito new over.

SPEAKER_16 22:43

I like someone who is so forthright.

SPEAKER_15 23:06

Heard anything on this episode that you want to talk about in a safe, private, and judgment free space? Chat na our Sema Nami chatbot on WhatsApp. Number Ni 0758 919709.