Should Women Be Prosecuted for Abortion? Justice vs. Mercy

Micah 6:8 says, “He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.”

How can the pro-life movement effectively build a culture of life while navigating the difficult debate over criminalization? In this episode of the Prolife Team podcast, Father Frank Pavone and Shawn Zierke dive deep into the intersection of justice and mercy within abortion policy. They discuss why focusing on existing laws and providing real support for mothers is often more impactful than pursuing the prosecution of women.

Shawn Zierke, a nonprofit executive and consultant, shares insights from her recent op-ed about the abolitionist approach versus incremental reform. The conversation covers the vital role of pregnancy medical clinics, the importance of maintaining trust with women in crisis, and the potential unintended consequences of legal changes on miscarriage investigations. You will learn about the strategic levers needed to change culture, including education, data research, and healthcare infrastructure improvements.

The discussion emphasizes that while the goal is to protect every unborn child, the path involves removing barriers like financial instability and lack of support. By prioritizing compassion and practical solutions, the movement can save more lives today while working toward a future where every life is cherished.

Join us as we explore how to act justly and love mercy in the pursuit of protecting the most vulnerable. Be sure to subscribe for more insights into the pro-life movement and share this video to help spread the message of life.

#prolife #justiceandmercy #abortionpolicy #pregnancycenter #cultureoflife

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:06

How sweet the sound that saved like lost, but now was blind, but now I see was great that first. Then when we felcome to the ProLife Team podcast.

SPEAKER_05 3:07

I'm Jacob Barr. I'm here with Father Frank Pavone and Sean Zerki. Father Frank, would you open this podcast in prayer and then invite Sean to give us her backstory and intro to this episode?

SPEAKER_06 3:19

Absolutely. Thanks for having us both. Let us pray. Father, you are the God of life. You are the God of mercy. You give us in your Son Jesus Christ the revelation of your love. And you advance for us. You abolish death and you advance for us the culture of life, the kingdom of life. We thank you, Lord, for the opportunity to bear witness to this kingdom, to bear witness to you, the God of justice and mercy. And we ask that we may continue to serve your people with the strength that comes from your Holy Spirit and from the peace and joy he brings us, which no one can take away from us. We pray through the same Christ our Lord. Amen. And friends, uh, it's great to be with you. And uh, Sean, uh, you are um uh uh well known in many circles uh uh within the movement, and we want you to tell the audience a little bit about you. I know you do a lot of, you give a lot of help to uh pregnancy centers and other organizations training on matters that, you know, don't necessarily uh go along automatically with having a passion uh for a cause, uh, but it's a little bit more refinement when you say, you know, how do you how do you run an organization? You know, how do you create a board? How do you uh navigate all these different things? That doesn't come automatically, and that's why people like you and trainings uh like you give are essential. Um but of course, you know, your your your work in the movement, it goes even uh well beyond that. And you've been at our leadership uh meetings right here at our office, as a matter of fact. We're happy to welcome you. But tell us even a little bit more about yourself and your background.

SPEAKER_04 5:08

Thank you, Father Frank. Thank you, Jacob, for having me. Um my name's Sean Zerke. I hold a master's in public health and health management and policy and an MBA in social entrepreneurship. And for more than 20 years, I've worked in the pro-life movement as a nonprofit executive, consultant, trainer, advocate. Um, I really want to give pregnancy medical clinics in particular legal defensibility against all the attacks that have been coming. Uh, and so my work focuses on that area. Uh but what brings us here today is I recently wrote an op-ed in the Christian Post titled Justice and Mercy Don't Have to Clash, where I discuss the ongoing debate within the pro-life movement regarding abortion policy, uh, criminal enforcement, and how we can most effectively build a culture that values both mothers and their unborn children. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation today and go a little bit beyond my article. Um, I spend my days helping pregnancy medical clinics and pregnancy resource centers serve women well and ultimately save lives and build long-term solutions that strengthen the family unit and ultimately their communities. And that's really the perspective that I want to bring into today's conversation, that long-term plan for the pro-life movement.

SPEAKER_06 6:37

So, what is the uh, I mean, this is a topic that many in the movement are even surprised that it even comes up uh, you know, that uh, well, women should be punished because, you know, we're serving women. We know that uh, I mean, many of the centers, and of course, you know, our own ministry and my own work, we oversee some of the largest programs for healing after abortion, and so many uh of the centers have direct outreach to welcoming uh and accompanying with uh God's love and mercy those that have had their babies killed by abortion. We know that that doesn't that doesn't minimize the the uh the evil itself. In fact, that's precisely the cause of their pain uh that they realize how big that evil is. And um uh we I always think back to um, you know, when uh President Bill Clinton was in office, there were some pro-life uh folks that came to a talk he gave out in Ohio. They were from the Franciscan University of Steubenville, and they made their presence known. And uh Clinton responded to them during his talk. And he said, Ah, I see we got these uh, you know, these anti-abortion people here. And you know what he said? He said, You people are just interested in punishing women, you know, and this is a this is a mindset of the abortion industry and the abortion advocates, it's one of the ways they want to they want to um isolate us from the the attitudes of the American people overall. So that just as a uh, you know, some people therefore, with all of this, and then we've kind of settled into this understanding um legislatively and culturally, that we don't we don't punish the woman. Uh you punish the abortionist, yes. So, so Sean, with that, as we know, that's the the sea that we are swimming in, so to speak, what approach do you take in this article?

SPEAKER_04 8:34

So before discussing whether women should be prosecuted, we should first ask whether we have fully enforced the laws already on the books against abortion providers, um, the illegal abortion pill distribution, and and honestly those profiting from abortion overall. And the answer is clearly no, we are not doing that. So if we want to start with existing laws, um I believe that every unborn child has value and deserves protection. And the question here is whether we're focusing our efforts to save the greatest number of lives today without fracturing the pro-life movement. Um many states already have abortion restrictions or bans. 41 states restrict abortion at some point in the pregnancy, uh, including 13 states with the near total bans right now. And the first question should be: have we fully enforced those laws against providers? Have we stopped illegal abortion pill trafficking? Have we exhausted every existing legal tool? And I do not believe that we have. And so we're getting ahead of ourselves um in this abolitionist approach to just criminalizing women pursuing abortion. Um, you know, the medication abortion is the primary battlefield. And when you jump to um the criminalization and including women in that are pregnant pursuing abortion, um you have missed the opportunities that have been set up for us in all these states that we have not been enforcing. So we all can agree that medication abortion has fundamentally changed the landscape, right? And the increasing numbers of abortions that are occurring through pills shipped across state lines and even internationally now, um, states such as Texas, Florida, Oklahoma have already enacted laws specifically prohibiting the mailing of abortion pills into their states. But are they enforcing it? And if so, how? So if pro-life states aggressively enforced existing laws against these illegal abortion pill distribution and telehealth providers violating state law, cross-border trafficking, we would likely save far more lives than just by focusing on prosecuting women, um, the end user. And I'm not saying that we may not end up there, but we have a long road ahead of us to get to that point. Um without inventing numbers, I feel very confident saying that more than half of abortions in the United States now occur through medication abortion. And if pro-life states successfully reduced illegal abortion pill access by even 10%, tens of thousands of children could potentially be saved each year. And if enforcement reduced abortion pill use by even 20%, the impact could be measured in many tens of thousands of lives annually.

SPEAKER_06 12:06

You know, so first of all, one of the things you're saying is a fallout.

SPEAKER_04 12:10

I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_06 12:11

Exactly. It's so important to emphasize this first point you're making. We're not sufficiently enforcing uh the laws. Um, in fact, we've seen over the years, you know, examples of uh, and this happened, you know, very, very, very loudly right after the Dobbs decision. You had some pro-abortion um DAs and prosecutors across the country saying, sorry, I'm not gonna, you know, enforce these pro-life laws. And our governor here in Florida took care of it out real quick by just firing some of these people. He said, Listen, your job here is not to promote your opinion or your agenda, it's to enforce the law. And what they you you feel you can't do that, then leave. You know, you don't want to leave, I'll kick you out, you know. So, and and and and and many other examples of how, you know, we're just not enforcing. And we know that when pro-life laws are passed and upheld and enforced, it's not a matter of opinion as to whether they save lives. They do save lives. Our friend Dr. Michael New, whom Jacob, I'm sure you've had him on this podcast, right? Michael New is always coming out with uh great research. And as a professor, you know, he he uh has shown repeatedly, both before Dobbs and after, how when a state passes pro-life laws, or when you even get them on the federal level, as we have some, um, lives are saved. There's no question about it, lives are saved. And you know, uh, Sean, I wonder too, not to get away from the development now here of the point of your article, but you know, when it comes to statistics, I think our viewers have to understand the abortion statistics now are, I mean, they've always been a little bit iffy. Uh because, like, for example, California that has the most, the biggest number of abortion facilities and abortions uh doesn't report their statistics to the CDC. And the CDC is one of the key sources of abortion statistics. So we've never known with precision uh how many abortions are taking place each year in the United States. We need to know. But the uh post-dob situation makes it even more confusing. And with the rise of the chemical abortions, and of course, people have to keep in mind the fact that an abortion pill is sold doesn't mean it was taken. So, I mean, we the the abortion statistics are now more confused uh uh than ever. And so people shouldn't be so quick to say, as we often hear, hey, you know, there's more abortions now than under row. Well uh maybe, um, but we're just not it is I think that it is. Yeah, yeah. Uh but we have we have uh uh a built-in uncertainty here with the with the statistics. But pro-life laws, especially when enforced, save lives, as you're saying. So, Sean, continue to continue to walk us through then the points that you make in this article.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

So um one of the points is that if an abolitionist wants to prosecute women or criminalize women in the abortion, then pregnancy centers uh are a forgotten entity. And they exist to remove the barrier. So most women considering abortion are not primarily motivated by a desire to end a child's life. There are those women, and we are unequivocally in agreement that there are women that use abortion as birth control. They um have lied to themselves to the point of absolute belief that it's okay to end that life that has zero value. Um, but majority of women are responding to perceived barriers. So financial concerns, housing concerns, uh, child care concerns, uh, relationship instability, fear of parenting, fear of delivery, lack of support in general, lack of awareness of the adoption option. And pregnancy medical clinics and pregnancy resource centers were created specifically to address those barriers. And as you know, I've worked with pregnancy medical clinics across the country, and they're, I mean, we have 3,000. Their entire purpose is to remove obstacles that make women feel abortion is their only option. Um SBA ProLife America has her plan, and it was created to be a resource to find solutions to those barriers in seven categories of care, 29 subcategories. We absolutely need to connect women to those resources first. If women believe that even the thought of considering abortion would somehow target them for prosecution, we've just taken that ministry of uh decision support away from them, and then I want to take that a step further, okay? What about um the fact that you have um okay miscarriage investigations? So roughly 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, many occur at home um quite often before women's even establish prenatal care. So if abortion and miscarriage begin to look legally similar from an investigative standpoint, what happens to a grieving woman? Do law enforcement officers investigate every pregnancy loss? Does a woman who already lost her child now have to prove she didn't intentionally cause that loss? I've spoken to countless women who have experienced miscarriage, and many carry guilt even when they've done nothing wrong.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

We should be very cautious about creating policies that compound that trauma. Women must feel safe seeking medical care. And if a woman feels that anything she says could trigger a criminal investigation, she may avoid doctors, hospitals, counselors, or pregnancy centers. We agree, I'm sure, that fear can drive people underground. And that does not help women. It does not help their unborn children and doesn't help the family unit overall. So this honestly, the impact on pregnancy centers is is rarely discussed. And pregnancy centers operate because women trust them. They become uh they come to them because they know they will receive compassion, support, practical assistance, and accurate information. Even if the left tries to say that we don't provide that, we know we do. And if women begin to view pregnancy centers as extensions of law enforcement, um that trust could be damaged. And the very organizations that save lives every day lose access to the women who need them the most.

SPEAKER_06 20:18

So we've got that dynamic. And then another thing that's been pointed out for years is that if in fact we're trying to stop the killing of these children, a woman who's had an abortion can come forward and say, who did it? And if someone is now afraid, as you're pointing out, to come forward in any in any capacity, how are we going to find the illegal abortionists? Um, it's gonna be far, much, far, much harder. She already had her child aborted, but that abortion is going to continue to go on killing more and more each day. And so it seems that now we're putting another obstacle in the way of stopping the one who's actually doing the killing every day.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Right. And so then let's take that another step further, right? What about abortion pill reversal? What about a woman who changes her mind? So one reality that's often overlooked is that many women regret their abortion decision almost immediately. And obviously, um we receive calls regularly um at pregnancy centers from women who've taken the first abortion pill and realize they don't want to continue. So if progesterone-based abortion pill reversal protocols uh have been reported to have um pregnancy continuation rates anywhere from 64 to 68 percent when initiated within 72 hours uh after them taking mifepristone. Then if a woman fears criminal prosecution, will she even seek help after changing her? Mind. And then do you prosecute the women that where it's unsuccessful? Do you see what I'm saying? Yes. So how how do you preserve that mother-child bond when she says, I changed my mind, or I realized my boyfriend gave me the pill? And um and I immediately went and looked for treatment for that. And so we're undermining all the good work that we're doing by pursuing this in this manner, uh, or the abolitionists are pursuing criminalization and prosecution of women who've chosen abortion. And where do you draw the line? Do you go back? No, because I've heard other people in our movement prominent who have a history of their own abortion saying, well, it was legal when I did it. But going forward, it should be illegal now. And yes, we should prosecute those women. What?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

Um it's it's like they've disconnected themselves from all the reasons that women even consider abortion. And again, I'm not dismissing the fact that there are depraved women out there who treat life casually and as disposable. And we'll our movement will get to that at some point, um, I believe firmly, but cultural change has to come before criminal enforcement.

SPEAKER_06 23:40

So true.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

America did not arrive at abortion through criminal law alone. We arrived here through decades of cultural change. And we will not build a culture of life through criminal law alone either.

SPEAKER_06 23:56

You know, uh, Sean, these are such great points. And and and and while we're having this discussion, by the way, remind us where people can find this article.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

On the Christian Post. They put in Christian Post Mercy and Justice, Sean Zerke, it'll come right up.

SPEAKER_06 24:16

Okay. All right. Yeah, that's that's that's that's so good. You know, it in line with what with what you're saying, you know, the the some of the folks that are advocating for criminalizing the the mothers here in these abortion procedures. Um let's ask a few questions here. You know, very often it's presented as, well, you know, uh the these legal proposals, these legislative proposals are about equal protection. And they they ask the people, uh as I've been asked, you know, do you believe in equal protection? Uh well, yeah, of course we do. Equal protection under law is a basic principle of the United States, you know, legal system is rooted in that. Equal protection under the law. Equal protection, though, let's just think about think about born people, that there's no widespread questioning of the fact that they are persons. Um equal protection doesn't mean equal punishment. It doesn't. It takes account, the law always takes account of the circumstances. How much did the person know, and how free was that person? I mean, we use that same framework in moral theology, evaluating that the, you know, how guilty is the sinner? Well, how free were they? How much did they know? If they didn't know, how responsible were they for not knowing, or were they swept in under a delusion? Now, there's no question, and you've pointed this out, the unborn child is as human as the rest of us and of course deserves equal protection. But what other person, what other group of people are more widely seen as not being people in the first place? And, you know, people say, well, you know, the baby is the same as the rest of us. Yeah, but you know what? Abortion is just not the same in the same category as other forms of killing. I'm not talking morally, I'm talking psychologically. It's just not in the same. There is a uniqueness about abortion, in as much as we have vast, vast numbers of people still under the delusion that this is not a child and that this is not an act of killing. So when you have that, you're too you're speaking of it in terms of timing, and I often address this point under that timing rubric too. The time will come when that delusion will be broken. I think we're rapidly advancing to that, and the delusion is being broken every day, more and more. But we're not there yet. We're not there by any stretch of the imagination. So uh I think what you're saying makes perfect sense.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Yeah. And to kind of summarize what you said, there's a difference between recognizing the humanity of the unborn child and deciding the wisest criminal justice strategy for a nation. Public policy must consider not only moral principles but practical outcomes. And so the question is not whether unborn children deserve protection. We all agree. That's we agree. The question is which strategy will save the most lives and strengthen the culture of life. And so if my goal is saving unborn children, I want to start with the policies that will save the most lives immediately and enforce laws already on the books. Stop illegal abortion pill trafficking, hold abortion providers accountable where the law allows, expand pregnancy clinic support, promote adoption, build a culture that welcomes children. And building a culture that welcomes children, that's a 50-year strategy.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

But that's the approach that saves lives today while changing hearts for tomorrow. And that's what we have to do. And um we have levers that we can pull in our society uh over the next 50 years that will think beyond just legislation. And that first lever is culture. So the abortion industry wins when pregnancy is viewed as a problem. So um we win when children are viewed as a blessing and parenthood is viewed as meaningful. So, how do we change culture? The same way the other side's been doing it. They're five, six steps ahead of us always. Um, you know, movies and television uh that portray large families positively. Uh we enlist our own influences celebrating motherhood and fatherhood. We invest in social media campaigns that normalize adoption, uh, adoption of special needs children. My story with Samuel. Uh, we highlight families raising children with disabilities. I volunteer. Um, storytelling that celebrates sacrifice, family, human dignity. The left has been doing this and understand this strategy, and they've been doing it for decades. And Hollywood has changed culture long before laws are ever changed. That's right.

unknown 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

The next lever that I would influence is education. So every major movement, think about smoking, anti-smoking campaigns, right? Every major movement understands that whoever teaches the next generation shapes the future. So this is where moms for liberty can come in and uh moms across America. And, you know, they've already had impact in just the last five years uh over COVID. So you've got K through 12 curriculum reviews and college campus engagement. Um, Students for Life is working on the college campuses, giving scholarships for pro-life students, um, you know, having leadership development programs. You've got Leadership Institute that feeds into this. They have their whole pro-life division, um, having fellowships for young lawyers, physicians, journalists that are pro-life. Um, you know, the abortion movement has been heavily invested in universities, and we need our own talent pipeline. So that would be education. Another lever would be the law schools and the legal networks. Right. We need our own constitutional scholars, law professors, state-level litigators, our own applet specialists and administrative law experts. We need more pro-life public interest law firms. We don't need to be constantly on funding defensive legal teams. We need our own offensive legal teams. Right. Then the next lever that I would pull would be data and research. So this is an area close to my heart. As Jacob knows, I teach a lot about data and research, especially when we're writing grants. But it goes to funding our own peer-reviewed research. The abortion industry uses data constantly. The pro-life movement, we rely on anecdotes. Qualitative and quantitative data go hand in hand. You can't sell the data without the story, but we we forget the data side or we haven't funded it properly.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

So maybe we need to have a national pregnancy center outcomes database, um, have our own longitudinal studies of women who have chosen life, follow them beyond their yes. We need to do a downstream economic analysis of abortion alternatives. We need data on fatherhood engagement outcomes. We are, I know Iowa, they just funded more fatherhood programs. There are Tennessee is funding fatherhood programs. There are more states that are seeing the value and fathers being engaged in life decisions and the ultimate parenting and value of life. We also need more adoption outcome studies. And then, of course, pregnancy clinic uh return on investment studies. I know that Life Advancement Group is um funding and tracking more data on the long-term outcome because I have drilled it into so many groups about how data influences legislators. It influences the judges, and we all know it influences our donors, but we need to sell it to the media. Right. And so we have been moving in this direction with statewide benchmark databases, but maybe a national database that becomes revered would be helpful in the long term.

SPEAKER_06 33:10

Well, friends, we're talking with Sean Zerke. She's uh an excellent uh pro-life consultant, and uh, she's written an article in the Christian Post, Christianpost.com that we encourage you to look up, called In the Abortion Abolition Debate, Justice and Mercy don't have to clash. It came out in the middle of February, and uh Sean is still it's still a topic of conversation, as of course evidenced by our broadcast today. Um, so you know what I like, uh one of the things I like about this article, as you're saying right now, you're you're you're you're giving positive solutions. Okay, here's the debate right now, here's the pros and cons. But you know what? What do we need to do going forward? And you just gave us some excellent uh uh bullet points here, leverage areas. Uh, and you know, the research, it makes me think back to the days of President Reagan when he asked his uh surgeon general, C. Everett Coop, uh, you know, what does abortion do to women's health? You know, and uh the Surgeon General came back and said, Well, we know that it's harmful, but you know what, Mr. President, we don't have the volume of data and research we need in a formal way to answer that question. And, you know, it's taking us decades to catch up, but uh thank God for our pro-life friends who are doing this this solid research. Um, so Sean, there were two other um things uh about your article that I wanted to invite you to develop for us further, plus, of course, anything else you want to add. One of them, and it's right there in the title, and it's very biblical and it's theological, justice and mercy uh aren't uh, you know, and opposites. And they and they can't be, because theologically, God is justice, God is mercy, and God is one. So they obviously can't be this like either-or situation. Tell us how you develop that very important point in this article.

SPEAKER_04 35:05

So when you're you even talked about this, Father Frank, just a minute ago. Is that when you are determining um the heart posture for someone who is contemplating sin. Um I think that that's part of what Christ looks at in us is where's our heart? What is our true desire? And I believe that the majority of women who consider abortion as one of their options would rather the barriers be removed. You know, is the timing perfect for them? Absolutely not. But if they could remove those barriers, would they make a different decision? And so that's where mercy can come in and um cover that. Um you take uh the justice can be brought against those that supply the end user. So that's the abortionist, that's the abortion pill provider, those that their whole mission, their heart posture is to end life. And so we have to start there first. And I think that that is honestly the whole premise of the article is is just fleshing out the distinction between the women that are experiencing shame, feeling no way out, feeling trapped in their life circumstances, or that don't even know that it's being done to them or they're being sex trafficked or whatever is going on that brought them to that um crossroads and that decision. And so if you have to go back and and levy mercy or justice, I think that you can levy mercy on them that their true heart posture, where the barriers removed, would be to maintain the pregnancy and justice on those who absolutely unequivocally want to end life.

SPEAKER_06 37:40

Yeah, exactly. So a key distinction, isn't it? Where where is this person really uh, you know, there's a difference between stumbling and falling, and then we get back up again, as we all do as we deal with our sins every day, versus going out there and being an apostle of sin uh and a and a and a and a promoter of death. Um, you know, Sean, I want to quote a line from your article too here, which uh uh I think is very crucial, uh, because it it well, let me just quote it. Some Christians, you write, worry about incremental reform. They fear that step-by-step progress signals compromise. It does not. Uh abolition remains the goal. Incremental steps serve as the path. I I want you to expand on this a little bit more, but you know, I think.

SPEAKER_04 38:32

Well, let's start with the laws on the books.

SPEAKER_06 38:35

We'll start with the laws on the books. You know, I I um when people ask me about incrementalism, you know what I say to them? I say, we don't choose incrementalism. Incrementalism chooses us. You know, if if if if if people are coming to you, to me, to Jacob, to our pro-arc organizations and saying, oh, you guys aren't you know going fast enough, you've got you got to abolish abortion. I I turn around and I say to them, please be my guest. If you've got a magic wand to make it go away today, please, I'm begging you. I'll just sit off on the side and watch. Do it! What are you waiting for? You know, nobody's got that magic wand. Nobody. Incrementalism chooses us. If if a legislative body is going to say, you know, hey, we're we're gonna protect, we want to protect babies 100%, what do they have to do? They have to take a vote. And they have to have a majority, at least a majority, uh, to swing that vote. And if they don't have a majority, you know what? That's not your fault, that's not my fault. But the fact that these are, that's the fault of those who aren't voting for it. But it but the fact that these babies are in fact persons and do deserve equal protection, you know, it's not like just saying, well, you know, we're allowed to pass a law that protects some but not all. It's not that we're allowed. We're obliged. Because the ones that it's going to protect deserve protection right here and now by the very argument that our friends are making who are criticizing us and the incremental laws. By that very argument, it's like, wait a minute, they need protection right now. They can't wait until a majority of those legislators agree that they should have that they should all have that protection. But you make that point in the article, you've made it here in in in in what you've been explaining, but that is one of the key cruxes of uh of this whole debate, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 40:22

Yes. And that's why I was also talking about these levers. Because if we're going to really have a change in the culture of life, the value of life, it is a long process and it's strategic because we're sitting where we are today, want being impatient, right? One of my probably greatest character flaws is impatience. I want what I want when I want it right now. Um, and I would love, just like you said, to be able to wave a magic wand and that abortion is abolished and that we all value life. But it's just like when people say, Why did this terrible thing happen? Because sin exists in the world. Until Christ returns, sin exists. And so we have to deal with it. So the other side seems to understand that. And so they've had they're playing the long game, and they have never lost sight of their purpose, which is to devalue life and destroy the family and kill the unborn. And so we, while not playing the same game, we still have to have a long-term strategy. We still have to employ the same tactics that have changed culture over time. And we cannot be on the defensive. And so if we go back to those same levers, changing culture, changing education, getting into the law schools and the legal networks, and employing our own data and research and uh looking at uh technology. I mean, the abortion industry adapted rapidly to telemedicine. Uh, COVID was a gift to them. And the pro-life movement needs the same level of innovation. We've got now uh 24-7 nurse chats, we've got AI-powered pregnancy support, we've got statewide resource navigation apps, we've got real-time appointment scheduling. Uh, what about digital case management, uh, predictive outreach systems? We we need to improve and publicize, utilize, and fund our own use of technology.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

And then the next would be economics. I mean, many abortion decisions are driven by perceived financial limitations. So imagine if we had a coordinated national effort providing emergency housing, childcare scholarships, transportation, employment assistance, education support, fatherhood employment programs. Then the real question becomes: can we make choosing life easier than choosing abortion?

SPEAKER_06 43:25

Exactly. Exactly. Well, yeah, I was uh I was encouraged along those lines to see that new um moms.gov website. I mean, this again, the government trying to change things, not just by passing laws, but by influencing culture. Like you just said, make it easier for families to have babies.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

Yes. The the the issue with the moms.gov is that it's coming after underfunded and undergrowns like Her Plan, which predates that.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Predates that and and on and

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Honestly, in my opinion, is stronger and more utilization friendly. Um but you've got funding for these things in some states, but not all states.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Not all, right.

SPEAKER_04 44:13

So you like Tennessee, uh, Florida, Texas, Iowa, Oklahoma, you know, and and more expanding states, Kansas and others, Missouri, uh, North Carolina. Um, there's state funding for what pregnancy centers do. Um, but you can't do just one of these pillars. Everything needs to be flowing at the same time. Um we need a better health care infrastructure. So the abortion industry built clinics in the pro-life movement must continue to build better medical alternatives. So funding pregnancy medical clinics that um meet accreditation standards, um, maybe prenatal care clinics and birth centers like guiding startups, more mobile medical units, more maternal wellness centers, more um pro-life fertility clinics that are not doing IVF, um, but other alternative ways to promote fertility, um pro-life or pro-women, um, women's health practices, and of course, mental health counseling, doing more perinatal mood disorder screening with all positive pregnancy tests and providing that bridge for women that may be predisposed to postpartum depression and so on. I mean, pregnancy clinics are already positioned for this role, so why not shore them up and help them expand it? And so that would lead to another lever, which would be government funding. Um, you know, the left has excelled at capturing government systems.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_04 46:04

So why can't pro-life leaders be experts in TANA funding and maternal health grants, Medicaid innovation programs, workforce development grants, capitalizing on public health contracts, especially we're talking about STDs. And why STDs when we're talking about saving babies? Because it's the same behavior that uh results in an unplanned pregnancy that is a higher rate of resulting in an STD. So you're capturing them in the behavior. Um and then funding more family support initiatives. We're not merely opposing government programs, we're commandeering them and competing successfully for them for pro-life initiatives.

SPEAKER_06 46:48

Yeah, this is definitely the way forward. And uh I think it's clear, Sean, uh, to our audience, why you uh consult so many groups, you know, advise so many groups, because you've got a really good practical sense of what needs to be done and what groups can be doing. So, again, folks, the the article we've been discussing is on Christianpost.com by Sean Zerke. It's back from February 13th. In the abortion and abolition debate, justice and mercy don't have to clash. But I think, Sean, also if if people or groups or leaders or pregnancy centers want to find and connect with you online for perhaps, you know, getting you in to do some more consultation, how would they connect with you?

SPEAKER_04 47:30

Uh Xerkey Consulting.com or just email me at Sean at Zerkey Consulting.com.

SPEAKER_06 47:36

And that's Z-I-E-R-K E, right?

SPEAKER_04 47:40

Yes, correct. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 47:42

Well, God bless you. Boy, uh great work, great discussion. Jacob, thank you for having us on and for for letting me uh lead this discussion uh with a really great guest. And uh this is fantastic. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 47:57

And as we wrap it up, I just want to point out one um one one tool that I want to reinforces uh sort of the answer to one of these issues when it comes to coercion. Uh thejusticefoundation.org slash C-A-F-A, which stands for Center Against Forced Abortion. The Justice Foundation has a list of letters, legal letters, that someone can use when they're in a forced abortion situation, whether it be with a boyfriend, a parent, um, or other groups that will sometimes manipulate or coerce a woman towards abortion, and it's a free service that they provide to to help support women in these coercion situations. Um and then also I before we close things out, I wanted to read the verse that was in John's article, Mamica 6.8. He has shown you, O mortal, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you to act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God. And so that's a beautiful verse, and it asks us to do both, or three things act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God. So um thank you all. Uh Father Frank, would you wrap up our podcast with a prayer as we close things out?

SPEAKER_06 49:20

Oh, gladly. Okay, thank you. Lord, we thank you for the work of the entire pro-life movement, and we thank you for Sean and the work she does and and the vision that she has laid out. Uh, we Lord, we know the the so many opportunities lie before us. Continue to raise up people, to take those opportunities in hand, to develop the resources we need, to do the research, to engage in public policy, to engage the culture in a way, Lord God, that as we've been discussing, will win this battle in the long term and will bring us to the goal we all want, the total abolition of child killing, children in the womb to be protected just like children outside the womb. Bless us, Lord, bring us to that day. Lord, we ask you for the holy uh impatience that uh visionaries and leaders like like William Wilberforce and Martin Luther King Jr. in the movements they led against injustice demonstrated that people who are suffering need help right now, right here, today. And yet, Lord, enable us to combine that with the holy patience that is uh absolutely necessary as uh as the as the mechanisms of justice move forward uh ever so painstakingly slow. Give us the patience to work through the obstacles and make the changes and see this through, no matter how long it takes. Give us, Lord, justice and mercy, knowing that all these things, O God, come together in you, the one God, the one Father of life, and your son, the Savior of all, and fill us with the Holy Spirit that you and your Son send us, that we may accomplish all these things, and that we may give all praise, honor, and glory to you, who are indeed Lord, forever and ever. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Amen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

All right, I'm gonna stop it there.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Never ceasing. Call for song the loudest praise. Teach me some melodia on it, baby, to the bread, I think the bonnet, the library, let's say I to sing, I great. Dream the mercy, the birthday thing, all the soul. Hello, the song, I play me, all the ball crazy, I'm gonna call it out.