Language of Behavior: Regulating Dysregulated Neurodivergent Minds

Kristina, a Board Certified Behavior Analyst, and coach who specializes in neurodiversity. She explains to Jo, neurodivergent minds have differences, not deficits. And behaviors are a language. A way to communicate when neurodiverse individuals lack the communication tools of the neurotypical. Kristina explains how as a community, we must learn to step back and not react. But assess situations, and all the variables related environmentally, emotionally, mentally and physically when inappropriate and sometime disturbing behaviors present themselves. And recognize the language in behavior.  So we  will be able to better communicate with the neurodiverse and create a safer community.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:26

And welcome to Vouvan. Hello, Christina. Hi, Joe. Third time's a charm. It is. And um, okay, tell us about you, Christina Grubbs.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Tell us about Christina Grubbs. Well, I am a mom. Uh, I am a board certified behavior analyst. I am a coach. Um, I'm also an independent facilitator for the self-determination program in California. Uh, I just I am really passionate, I guess, about helping people and looking at behavior and just really kind of diving in deep so people understand that behavior makes sense when you understand your environment and your nervous system and kind of what's what's going on around you to make it all better. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

And so, well, you know what? It's a big thing because one of the big things that stuck out is about when we don't know, or you know, those of us out out in this universe that don't understand neurodiversity and we always think we need to fix everything in somebody. So that's the big ticket to understand that that isn't what this is about. We don't have to fix everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

You don't have to fix anybody right at all. People are misunderstood and labeled and they're not accepted. And, you know, sometimes labels kind of just stick with people as like, oh, they're strong-willed, or they're oppositional, or they're defiant, or manipulative, or and it's that's not how it is. It's a our behavior is a type of communication, so we don't have to fix that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

And it's interesting because um behavior, you know, I I with I have um a unique son, and when you are given a child, you are also educated in behaviors, for example, if you are dealing with it. ABA. Yeah. And so I had an opportunity to really because you are required to take courses, right? The applied behavior courses. So you really learn about behaviors and the language, you know, and the antecedents and everything isn't, and then it isn't even sometimes that initial antecedent, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Right. It's often looked at. So if we're looking at antecedents, right, we want to know like what happens right before the behavior occurs, but it could be something also internal. So, what is your nervous system feeling like? What are they trying to communicate with you? Doesn't have to be a particular environmental change, it can be an internal change.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

And so when you talk about behaviors, you have to have knowledge, you need to be prepared. And those are things that you don't want to also have interfere or predict the future, if that makes sense. Right? That's sometimes the typical reaction is if we know he behaves like this, we better um you're pr you're thinking he's always gonna behave like this, never giving them an opportunity. Does that make sense? Like if um sometimes we profile people by their behaviors. Yes. And so because they have that profile, um They're stuck in a certain category.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

We've thrown them into this bad behavior category, and it's our faults, it's not their faults. Why did we end up putting them in this category? We did that because we didn't do our job. We didn't look to see what is really going on with this person. Like this is a a human being, and they don't just have bad behavior, something else is going on. And we, as the ones sort of out in the world trying to navigate, need to really look and figure out what is actually going on. Is it something internal? Is it, you know, emotional? Are they trying to connect with us? Are they embarrassed about something or do they feel threatened? Like, is it a fight or flight response with the quote unquote bad behavior? And how can we change that? Like, is it something that we do walking into it that makes them go, like, oh my gosh, I need to hit this person right now?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Well, you know what? Interesting you say that because the day before yesterday, that exact thing happened to my son, who was walking with his aide to the bus and some other random st student in another class who they didn't know each other just walked by and sacked him in the face. Oh my gosh. Oh, yes, the teacher was right behind him. Um, you know, a slap soccer. Right. It stunned him. And the point was, it was there was no reason for it. It was an impulse. It was an impulse because this person has this type of behavior, his psychology. So my question is, you know, if you know this, I mean, like now, I'm a scared parent, I gotta tell you. Right. I think, oh my gosh, this child who, you know, uh they're they're they're adults, he assaulted my son. Um I'm a little I'm frightened for my son now. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I don't I don't want to hide, you know, like I was talking to the teacher. You don't want, I mean, I don't want to live in fear of this person, but I also because they don't know, they said we don't believe it was directed. I'm thinking, and they go, but we don't know. Right. And I and I and then they have and then they can't tell, and so nobody knows, right? But it was this random impulse, which brings me to that point of behaviors where what creates a random impulse that could actually harm another person?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I love that. So just kind of thinking about that, a dysregulated brain can't problem solve. So impulse control is it's actually like connected to your nervous system, right? Is it, are we looking at sensory seeking? Is it some sort of anxiety or past trauma? Like we don't with this particular person, like we don't know. But I think looking at it instead of asking, you know, how do we stop this behavior from happening in the future from a teacher perspective, look and see like what sensory needs exist? What emotional state was he in? Is there obviously there were environmental supports if everyone was standing there? But what else can we do to help the dysregulated brain now become regulated? So the impulse control then stops because we're in a calmer state. Does that make a little sense? You know what I mean? I feel like that was cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I gotta tell you something. It actually, you just said something that does make a lot of sense to me. I grew up training horses, by the way. And I grew up showing horses, Joe. Okay. Well, we're gonna have to talk about that later. Because that's an interesting thing. I say that because uh there's a lot to that. But what I would, you know, there's the famous um behav the the dog psychologist, um, Cesar Milan, for example. And, you know, and I love him. I love all these guys that, you know, at animal advocates that work to save a life, especially when they're dealing with behaviors, when people automatically surrender them. And he helps to make them understand their psychology. So, my point to what addressing what you were talking about, the calmer state, and that is something that I was realizing, it's true. There's so much energy built up inside our person. It's I, you know, we can explode. Yeah. And and so that's what like these animals do. So these these aggressive animals, so you wear them out, you wear them out until they're like you said, they're in a calm state, in a calm enough state where they're able to receive direction and information, actually receive it.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

And think about when you're upset and someone's trying to tell you like coping skills. Coping skills don't work when you're already in a dysregulated mode. Calm down. We have to take deep breaths, count to 10. Don't tell me to count to 10. My brain is not thinking like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Right. Right. That just that creates even more drama, actually. Yeah. And that's and that's why understanding, you know, you're you're you're the term coach, right? This brings your the the wealth of intellect, the bank of information that you carry in the neurodivergence divergence of a mind, and and how to educate the community on not being reactionary. Right. That's really uh, you know, that's so much to do with it. That helps to calm everybody down if we can calm our own emotions too.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Right. I think the the one in charge needs to remain neutral and calm.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

And you know, there's a communication book that my son's aide and I communicate daily because I I need to know what happens so I can communicate when he gets home. He's nonverbal, and I need to know about his day. And I'm also preparing him for an SDP transition, and I need to put him in a program. So I'm interested in his day. She asks, she tells me, you know, what she encountered this particular day. Um, he was exhibiting behaviors, um, kicking other students' chairs, something she's never seen him do. But she's a new aide who's only been there for a month. And um also uh pounding the pounding on the desk. Now, she's supposed to be with him full time with him, working with him. So she's asking me, and she sh, you know, she shared the behavior and then asks me, what can I do to calm him down? You know, and I'm thinking, I'm I'm I'm not I'm I'm in the book because it's already after the fact. Right. But my my question, you know, is that there are lots of people that are in programs such as adult transition and a lot of these day programs that too need to be coached and educated.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Yeah. You know, I think a lot of the times we look at, so her question, what can I do to calm him down? What are you doing? And what's the environment around him that's ramping him up to where you feel like you need to calm him down? Exactly. Step back and look at that.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Well, you know what? Actually, um, she did a few days later and she came back and wrote in the book, I realized because she's supposed to be with him, um, you know, she was attending to other kids. She was, he was probably jealous. Right. Thinking, you know, that could potentially be a term. And I guess maybe that is the term, is it?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

It could be, it could be he's feeling left out if she's not attending to women. Yeah, left out, not feeling included. Right. He wants that part of her that she's supposed to be there and she's not. So now his world is different. She's a new person, she's supposed to be with him and she's not with him. So it's he's not quote unquote acting out. He's communicating his feelings in a way that as neurotypical adults, we don't do that. But that's how he's communicating to her.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Right. And so you just brought up something where the typical individual, in most cases, will have, you know, typical responses and reactions. It'll be verbal. Um, you know, why aren't you, you know, engaged in some way? Um, and so just like you were saying in the beginning of the conversation, a lot of these behaviors are a language. These behaviors are a language and they're telling us something. And we need to understand, you know, what that is.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

And we need to be aware enough to know that we have to understand that and to look for the signs to be able to see what's going on if he can't communicate verbally. What is he trying to tell me? And I think that's where we need to sort of open our world a little bit as a society to understand that behavior is communication for a lot of people. Even, you know, for us, when we wave, that's a behavior. We're actually doing something. We're waving, we're communicating too nonverbally. We all communicate in that way. Sometimes it comes out a little differently, even if there's a fight. We're still communicating. We're angry now. Not in the best way, but it's still communication. And we can't just shut it off to one population that engages in quote unquote behaviors. What else is happening?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

You know, um, and you just bring to mind how important this uh education and coaching is, I believe, in um uh uh with security and police and community services that engage in the community. Um because there's just a lot of reactionary behaviors. I think I think it's a really good point that we do all need to be educated in understanding that behavior is a language. We need to step back before we react. So that, you know, because that's that's that's honestly, it's like in baseball. You know, my uh it it's really I find it too, if you've ever swung, you know, if you got a ball coming at you, the react, you want to swing a bat. Right. You just and and it's hard not to. It really takes a lot not to swing a bat when the ball is coming. But my and my point, I'm comparing it because you know, when people want to push, they go, you want to push back. And you see a lot of it with um protesting or things that happen in the streets. Um, so there's a lot of you know, civil servants, police officers, who have you that I believe we need to reach them to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I would like to think in in our society, most people aren't trying to be difficult. They're trying to manage the like the overwhelmed nervous system that they have with the tools that they currently have. So they're acting in a way because they don't have the tools to really calm, maintain, and not look as if they're being difficult. It's just the tools that they have are not adequate to get across appropriately what they're trying to say.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

No, exactly. And that's exactly how my son was when he was trying to make his point and communicate. Um, and you're exactly right, behavior is a language. I want to know, and this this whole thing has really got me to thinking, um, yeah, step back and don't react is really something that your coaching could, I believe, inspire, you know, the civil servants on the streets that are really engaging, you know, to serve and protect the community.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

I think that that's definitely an underserved profession as far as coaching is concerned with specific populations, because it it, you know, if you walk up to a child who is nonverbal and you assume that they're being combative and defiant when they really don't understand what you're saying. So now what are we gonna do? Take them down, and then that causes a whole other sort of now someone's attacking me and I can't talk to you about it. And you know, someone's still thinking they're they're being defiant, they're not responding, and it's just it's very, very scary as a whole for everybody involved.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

It is. I I you know what though, Christina, I believe this is like a campaign. Really, I believe that it's something that um to have another conversation because I think it is, you know, step back, don't react is something you you know, to implement and to um all those out to protect and serve in the community.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Um it it goes to all first responders, to you know, the EMTs that are pulling up with the lights to a an accident on the freeway. And if someone has sensory processing disorder and now it's the lights and the sirens and the people and oh my gosh, and then yes, no, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 18:01

That's the picture that has to be painted. You know, there's so much to say, and this is such a very important subject. I I I want us to really um consider, like really consider continuing to talk about this and create a campaign based on it because I worry about my son's future when I'm not here, you know. Um there was a young boy, I and a young child with intellectual disabilities. He loved going to the cinema. He, and this is in Colorado. This was um some years ago, but it's a story I'll always remember. And um, he has Down syndrome, DS, but he would always go to a cinema, it would always be usually the same people. Um Marlon's story was new people that day. It was new staff, people didn't know him. He wanted to go in. There was usual hate behaviors in people, everything was different. They instead of working with the young guy with DS, they called the police. It escalated. Yeah, so you know what I'm saying? It just turned into an awful, deadly situation. And that's the point, you know, when you have a lot of uneducated people, people just react. Yeah, they're out of out of fear.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

We're a very reactionary society, and it's unfortunate. Yeah, and becoming more and more reactionary.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

I I saw, you know, I saw this um uh it was on one of the social sites, it might have been on Instagram, and I tell you what, it was like, oh my gosh, this FedEx driver was coming to deliver a package. You know, California, bears are everywhere. Anyway, he gets out of the truck, he's going, he's you know, pushing in the code, and all of a sudden the owner's like, get back in your truck, get back in your truck. There's a bear, there's a bear. And you know, trying to get the guy, he goes, Don't come in. All of a sudden, the guy is faced with the bear. The guy did not react. He, you know, he got he turned around and he just got big, bigger than the bear and scared the bear off. You know, but that's what it takes, right? Um, it's the thing. I I don't know if I could have reacted like that, you know. Oh no, I don't think I would. I would run. Yeah. I that's my point. We really have to be educated in all these very important, you know, life and death circumstances.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yeah. And it's, I mean, especially when we're talking about individuals that don't understand and they don't understand your anger, they don't understand our form of communication. People communicate in all different ways. And I mean, going back to the movie theater example that you just shared, that's staff training. That's a and it's a very easy fix. It's just getting it into your HR department and having someone talk to you about the ins and outs of dealing with people. Do you have people skills? Are you able to talk to people and not react in situations and be compassionate?

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Exactly. Blows my mind. You know, I think, you know, one of one of the things too, I think, um, um, but the point of that is is that, you know, everyone's in a time-sensitive circumstance. Not enough people on the streets dealing with, you know, we're talking about, like, for example, the situation where people are police officers or who have you, EMTs, people might be called to one scene and you know, then they're needed on another thing. People are always in a hurry. So it's like there is no time um except to react, if that makes sense. You know, they feel like there's not, there's no time to like sit back and assess.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

We are a rush, rush, rush, and we don't take the time to relax. Yesterday I was driving home and again, California role, right? But this guy didn't even attempt to stop at the stop sign. He saw that we were far enough away and we were probably.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

gonna stop so he just rolls right on through the stop side we don't care about other people and I it in in general well I think you know what I've I ran into this um where it's I don't think it's about not care you're right though we are pretty much self-obsessed it's not that they don't ultimately care it's self-obsessed we're self-obsessed yes and but I also know too where I was at the dog park the other day you know and I have an I have three dogs two are small French sheep one is a large old English sheep dog they cannot go in the same dog park unless nobody's in the dog park right right anyway so there's a lady who said go bring your big dog into the dog park I'm like no the sign says 25 pounds or less she goes no bring you know and she kept going on about it's no big deal and I'm thinking and she goes you're such a you know you know talking to me about the rules you know um rigid and I was like you know what it's not being rigid I go but it is the law you know and I do want to respect the law you know I was coming out of uh Runyan Canyon from hiking and it said and sometimes you know you get caught hiking and you're talking and walking and thing time goes by you're resting a bunch of people a dozen or more we it the sun had set so it's like we're five minutes out of sunset. The Rangers were out there every one of us got a hundred and thirty dollar ticket single one and so my point to it is we're like oh it's you know what's sunset? Well sunset is when the sun sets. So we need to be reminded to by the rangers what sunset was and it cost $130 each. So my point is if there is a law we really do need to abide by it. But I've discovered that a lot of us don't like to abide by the laws out here. But that's a still for another day. I mean I don't know if that's a California thing or just sometimes you know sometimes we just you know bend the rules. We're we're self-obsessed. Right. You know it's I'm you know I'm kind of uh I like to I really like rules I really believe in them. I believe in training animals and and children you know and I don't mean it in any way except that we all need a foundation except the the the point is is that don't you believe in roles or do you?

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yes don't you? I mean rules absolutely rules and expectations like what is expected of me I when I was raising my son we I had a hard bedtime for him and our neighbors were always like let him stay up no this is his bedtime I'll come back out when he's asleep but absolutely not I don't care if it's a Friday if it's a Saturday if it's a Tuesday he's still going to bed at the same time because that's like rules structure routine right you know it rules structure routine is critical and uh it's with kids and animals specifically I mean you're gonna run into it when you become an adult dealing with your job and your role so get used to it.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

It's very it's it's so important you know it is and that and um I think some of us need to be reintroduced to how important it really is. My husband being one of them. Anyway no anyway I'm like I'm only kidding okay I won't talk anymore about that. But all right so listen Christina thank you I really you know I loved it because I think we we we talked about a a lot of very important information. We hit a lot of different topics today yeah but very important topics and you know the main point is behavior is communication.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Step back do not react you know there is a reason and we could de-escalate yes if we do this a hundred percent I I think when we stop viewing people through this lens of quote unquote bad behavior and really start understanding communication we will take leaps and bounds with communicating with each other and and staying safe I think is is a big important one.

SPEAKER_01 26:27

So uh coach Christina we will talk to you again because we have a lot to learn.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

All right thank you Miss Joe I enjoyed speaking to you today.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

It was so informative to be continued till next time have a great day and again I am full of gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Thank you Joe I am so grateful that you invited me to be here today. It was wonderful we're gonna talk to talk to you later. Okay