The Algorithm Was Designed to Keep You Miserable — Here's How to Fight Back

What does it actually mean to be successful — and what if everything you've been chasing has been keeping you from the peace you already have?

In this episode of August After Dark, host Matt sits down with entrepreneur, digital marketing pioneer, and consciousness explorer Nicholas for one of the most honest, wide-ranging conversations the show has ever had.

Nicholas's story starts before he was even born — a miracle pregnancy, a prophecy spoken over his mother, and a path that led him to pastor a church at 17, build a $100M+ digital advertising empire, and eventually walk away from it all to ask the questions that actually matter.

They cover it all:

• How Nick went from church pastor to Facebook ads pioneer — generating close to a billion dollars in client sales
• The dark side of social media algorithms and how platforms are engineered to keep you anxious, scrolling, and never enough
• Why your identity might not actually be yours — and how to start questioning the stories you've inherited
• The McLaren obsession — from a six-supercar test drive to hunting down a 765LT and why toys are just toys when you know who you are
• Dream Rally — and the unexpected ripple effect it has not just on the kids in the cars, but on every single person watching from the sidewalk
• Nick's new documentary "Unbecoming" — a two-year, seven-country journey through monasteries, neuroscience labs, and psychedelic research centers asking one question: What if fulfillment isn't about becoming more, but unbecoming everything you're not?
• The 5MEO DMT protocol Nick and his team have developed — combining clinical therapy, neurofeedback, Buddhist coaching, and psychedelic medicine to collapse the patterns that cause suffering
• Why presence, not performance, is the new definition of success

This episode will challenge the way you think about ambition, identity, social media, philanthropy, and what it means to truly know yourself.

Key Themes: Inner clarity · Entrepreneurship · Social media & mental health · Psychedelics & consciousness · Philanthropy · Dream Rally · Identity & suffering · The Unbecoming documentary

Good things happen to good people. Throw the ladder back down.

Subscribe, share, and if this episode moved you — visit augustafterdark.com to support the kids and families behind Dream Rally.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the August After Dark podcast, buddy. I remember you telling me about this, but like seeing it in place here in the showroom with the lights. It's exciting. I'm I'm I'm delighted and honored to be here. I'm honored to have you, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Oh man. I think it's gonna be a very cool conversation. Oh, I hope so. We're gonna talk a lot about like just you growing up and the whole the whole trip, the whole thing. All the way to like the actual trip. And then all the way through the all the way through. Yeah, too.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Every a every bit. So where do we start then?

SPEAKER_02 0:35

So talk to me. Like bring me back to you growing up.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

You know what? We'll we'll start a little before that. If I lag, you just get me caught up. But like from what I was told, my parents couldn't have kids. So they actually tried to go through the Catholic Church to adopt. But because my father and my mother weren't actually practicing Catholics at the time, they're like, you can't go that route. And apparently that was a thing back then. Um, and so through a crazy twist of events, my Korean mother met another Korean lady who said, Look, I go to a Pentecostal church and we believe in miracles. So what if I get the lady preacher who's at my church to pray for you to have a kid? Are you okay with that? And I think at that point, my mom's just desperate. She's like, whatever. Like, oh, I I don't even think she believed in any of it or whatever, but she's just like, okay, sure. Well, lo and behold, a month later they were pregnant with me. So like there was this weird feeling since the beginning that like you're meant to be in this world. I well, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't go that far. Well, you've done a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Just to give a little bit of history too. So you've gone through, like, you are the you were like the mastermind behind Facebook ads and ads. Sure. Right? And then you've like you've gone through like a whole transition and to where you are today, which we'll go through. Sure. Like you were meant to be on this earth by just like just hearing that.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Well I I want to be careful about the words I choose. I think ever anyone who's here is is here for a reason. Somehow, somewhere, sometime we chose to live the lives we did and have the parents we had and to show up and have this experience. Yeah, for sure. Um, I just want to avoid it, like you know, sometimes when you hear stories like that, A, it's unrelatable, and B, then it's like feels like, oh, it's something special. But but I think we're just all meant to be here if we are here. Um, but again, there's just like weird transitions of experiences. So, like when I was eight, my mother ended up being a person of faith as a result of this experience. So she's a person of faith. She she went to church one particular Friday where uh there was a guest from Korea, another Pentecostal guy. And as the story goes, I wasn't there. But she tells me in the middle of his sermon, he stops and he points at her and says, There's two things you need to know. Number one, you married a Caucasian man and you had some doubts about that. I want you to know you made the right decision. And secondly, you had a son who wasn't supposed to be born, and he will go into ministry. I just want you to know that. And then he went about and finished off his sermon and called it a day. And my mom came home and she told me that story, and I'm like, well, what does that mean? And I think she wanted to like dumb it down a little bit and just said, Oh, well, it doesn't mean you're going into ministry. It just means like you'll do good things in the world. I think that was her way of like softening the blow to this eight-year-old kid at the time. Anyways, you fast forward, you go to high school. I had uh an interesting, uh, some might call it a conversion experience over the summer. Uh, next thing I know, I'm this is a fast-forwarding, but I'm 17 years old. I pastor, I'm pastoring a church. By 19, I'm ordained, and I started my own church, and I did that for 11 years, um experiencing the highs and lows of humanity. And I remember being 19 and having to like perform my first funeral and like questioning that. Yeah, and like going through what does that mean? And of course, in this role, a lot of people have uh a lot of questions about what life is. And I'm an immature kid. Like, I I claim to know the answers and I study the documents that are supposed to tell me the answers. Yeah, but then yeah, I as part of that process, I said, Well, I don't ever want to be a burden to my church, so I'm not gonna take a salary, I'm gonna figure out a side hustle to pay for my lifestyle so that no one can ever point a finger in my face and say, I'm paying for your car, your clothes, or or any of that. Um, so simultaneously, unbeknownst to most people, like I started an internet marketing side hustle to pay the bills while I was doing this. And it was like 80% of my attention on the church stuff and 20% on the on the side hustle. Um, but but over, yeah, over 11 years, I I got to a place, truthfully, where I started asking more questions and having answers. And uh to be frank, I don't think that was like the best place for the leader of the church to be in when he had more questions and answers. Um, so I made the decision to step away and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna take a year, a year sabbatical. I deserve a year. Well, that year turned into 15 years now. But in that process, I doubled down on the kind of internet game. I think I was in the right place at the right time. Facebook now, Meta had just released their advertising platform. I said, I think I could figure this thing out. And uh I kind of joke and I say that that was the the hundred million dollar decision because you know, since then we've generated probably close to a billion dollars in sales across the network for all of our clients and and really understood that game. And so yeah, that takes us to about um so four years ago.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

So when you were 17, yeah, or when you were 10, yeah, what was like Nicholas's goal? Like what where did where did he like what was your like I'm gonna go do this?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I I I I don't know 10, but I'd say right around 17 when I started like uh becoming a person of faith at the time, and that was my worldview. My goal was in whatever limited way I knew as a young child, like again, an undeveloped mind, but I was like, I I wanna change the world. I don't know what that meant, but I thought it meant through this worldview of my faith that I'm going to actually, it's an interesting question. I think my my my overall goal to this day, it's a bold mission, but it's to end human suffering. This suffering. I can't end like physical suffering or abstract poverty and things like that. But even then, I think because of everything I went through as a child, like I witnessed my father have his first heart attack when I was four years old. I lived in the hospitals. I was having conversations with cardiac specialists who thought I was a med student when I was 17 because I was just in the thick of it. And then I saw him lose his life when I was 19. And so, like, I think the perpetual state of all the things that I'd gone through, there was a deep underlying motivation to put an end to suffering in whatever way that made sense. I didn't know what that meant, but but that's my mission to this day, for that matter. It's a great mission to have. Well, I think it's a big one, hopefully it doesn't get there, but but we're on, we're we're getting there, we're tracking.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

So take me back through like you're like the algorithm king.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Right? Kind of, right? You understood it, and you know, like you kind of stumbled into it, kind of, sure, yeah. Um, you know, you're a car guy too. Right. I mean, I guess we're sitting here around. And we're like we're sitting around in these cars, and I guess you know, you do drive a McLaren. Sure. You've had cool cars. Yeah. Was that always a goal? Or did it just No.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

So I was never a car person, but I think I justified never being a car person because I never thought I could be in a place where I could afford one. So my mind plays great games that way. It's like, well, if you know you can't ever afford it, like don't even play that game. Don't put it up on the wall because you don't want to disappoint yourself. And to be frank, much of my early years was me reading all the personal development books, you know, saying my affirmations in the mirror, putting the vision board on the wall, and being constantly disappointed. Realizing later that I was being disappointed in myself for having these goals and not doing what it took to achieve them. Um, so I was never really a car guy and I wanted to just play it like mainstream. And of course, like every young kid, you you want to make it big or you want to do big things and be a millionaire and drive the cars. Um, but I think there was this doubt that was always lurking in the back of my mind to say, you can't do that. So actually, it was almost like I stumbled across these, let's call them successes. I again I want to be careful with the words, but um, they weren't aggressive pursuits as much as they were me trying to figure out myself and what it means to show up in the best way I can. And then somehow the the things started to click and you know, various things started to happen. I was able to afford the cars and the homes and live in this beautiful place we call Kelowna and home and and all those things.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

What was the first car that you bought that was like a vision board car?

SPEAKER_00 9:25

So we uh the short story of it, I lived in Toronto at the time. And and in near Niagara area, there was a company that I guess I don't know if they consigned the cars, they borrowed the cars, or they own the cars, but they had these tours where you could drive six supercars in six hours. And I think you like you go with a buddy and then you drive for 30 minutes, then you swap and you drive for 30 minutes, and then you go through the series of cars. And I was never really into cars, but my buddy's like, hey, do you want to do this? I got tickets, I'll cover you. Like, let's let's just go and hang. And I'm like, I I don't know anything about cars, but I'd love to just hang out with you for six hours, sure. And I think at the time there was a like a hurricane, um an uh an R8, there was a Ferrari and a whole series of cars. And I think just by happenstance, the final car in the rotation for us as a pair was a McLaren 570S. And I didn't know anything about McLaren's at the time, but like we drove this thing. I was like, holy sh, this this is a a rocket on wheels. Like, and this is even compared to all these other cars that we had just driven. And so in the back of my head, I kind of slated it and said, Look, if I ever drive a supercar, it'll be the 570s. And then I think it was about a year and a half or 18, 18 months to two years later, where I found myself in a place where, through circumstance, um, one came up, I was able to afford it, and I drove it. And I I thought I was the king of the road. I was like, this is the best feeling ever. I can't believe a car can give you such a great feeling. And even like there are times where my wife would turn to me and say, I was like, you just enjoy driving these. I'm like, yeah, something about them. But I tell you, McLaren was pretty smart because when you, at least in Toronto, if you buy McLaren, they invite you to the McLaren track days. Yeah. McLaren only track days. So I remember, again, this is the Grand Prix track in Toronto. It's got the longest straight of all tracks in North America, apparently, the back, the back straight. And I just remember making that final turn into the straight and like just gunning it, like putting it all the way down on the throttle. And man, all these other McLaren's just started passing me. The 720 pass me, the P1s, obviously, there was a cent on, like they just started flying by me. And I think McLaren does that on purpose because at the end of that day, I went back to the dealership and said, I want a 720S. What is this business? Like, this is not fun. And then again, through a crazy series of events, not long later, they found me one. I was able to step into that and then invited me to another McLaren track day. And I said in my mind, um, because I saw for the first time a 765 LT. I didn't even, I thought this is gorgeous. I don't even know what that is. And so I went back to McLaren. I said, I want that car. I don't even know how much it is. I don't know what I want that car. And they looked at me and they laughed at me in the face. And they said, Oh no, these there's only 765 made or whatever it was. They're all pre-allocated in 2021 when they came out. Um, so tough luck, buddy. So I I asked the guy, how did you get one? And he said, they made me buy four cars on the spot to qualify to get an allocation for one of these. So I said in the back of my head, one day I'll one day, if if the opportunity ever presents itself to me, I don't think I actually told you the story. And then it was dream rally two years ago. We were driving, coming home from Tom's house, the after party, and I was dropping off a buddy of mine. Uh, this was in the 720s. And I look up on the street. This is an upper mission, and a guy go looks down and goes, Oh, nice car. And we'd start chatting through the through the the cliff there. I'm like, Oh, what do you have? He goes, Oh, I've got a 765 LT. I'm like, no way. This is Doug.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I'm like, no way. He had an orange one. I was like, oh my God, I saw that at the Dream Rally. Like, that's that's the car I want. And he goes, Um, well, I just found out that like you guys didn't have any here at the time. I just found out that McLaren got one. They called me to see if I wanted it. I told them I didn't, so why don't you just call McLaren and see if it's available? So I I called them and I said, I hear you have a 765 LT. And they said, We do. And well, I'll take it. I am like, I should probably ask for the price first, but I was like, we'll take it. Yeah. And then they send me over the paperwork. I'm like, oh shoot. Okay. Just we're gonna have to figure this out. But then I, you know, got into that car and uh I've just kind of been a McLaren fan ever since.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Do you have a car that is like I don't know, a dream car that's still or or are you over cars or where where are we at with cars now?

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I I uh well, I I I don't know, maybe just because I'm like uh uh McLaren treated me so well from the beginning. And I know every time we chat, you love McLaren's, and I'm like, I think I'll I'll always drive one um to the end, but I I don't I don't know what the what's out next. So we have the 750S now. If I have a chance one day to maybe get back another 765, um it's a special car.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

So I think it's still my favorite car.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yeah, it's it's there's something about it. I kind of feel not great about letting it go. I mean, there's a whole story behind that where someone rear-ended me and it became a thing. But um, but yeah, that's a special car. I I'm hoping to get my hands on one. It is when I saw one behind me when I walked in today. I was like, I have to ask about it. Just ask about it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

It is a special car. It's it's still my favorite car when people ask me, like, I think that's so incredible.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Like for you to say that, yeah, so incredible.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

I'm still, it's still it's the one that got away, and I don't get to say that very often that there's like a car that I I can't get again. It was a roof scoop car similar to yours. Yeah. And and we just had so many great memories in it. The car was bulletproof, and like be the gumball on that car, everything. It was it was unbelievable owning that car. Yeah. So where where I kind of I think this conversation really starts to really take effect to the people listening, yeah. Uh from just the conversations we've had together, sure, is about social media kind of. I think we'll go there and then we'll kind of go to your the video you've produced and the documentary you have coming out, which is so cool. Sure. Um the algorithm. We've talked lots about the algorithm and and where it's like where it's pushed humanity to. It's that that dopamine. And like give me your thoughts on being the guy who like worked in the algorithm. Right. What what did that do to you, A, and kind of what what do you see it doing to the young generation in the world today?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, I yeah, there's an old saying, like, if you if you want to find out what's going on, like follow the money. And there's another saying that says, if the product is free, it means you're the product. And I think when you take those two things together, you start to get a bit of a picture. Now, look, I'm not against social media. It's a it's a big part of all of our lives, and I think it can be tailored to actually be a very empowering thing for an individual. But if you're not intentional about it, it can end up being a very difficult and unhealthy thing. Uh what I'm so what I mean by that is like, so we have a platform, whether any social media platform, we don't have to call anyone particular out, but you have social media platforms that are free to use. So the very fact that they're free to use to the individual says that there's something else going on in the background, and the users are then the product if we're not paying for the product in and of itself. So if we're the product, then we got to ask, like, where's the money going and what's being sold? And a lot of these social media platforms, it's evolved now into some of the AI stuff they're all doing, but a lot of social media platforms, their monetary strategy is to their shareholders are is advertising. Um, and in order for them to make money, they need to keep people on the platform as long as humanly possible. So, one side of it that you start to understand is I don't want to sound cynical, but very few companies out there are looking for our best interest in mind. They're looking for their best interest, which is you know, submitting to their shareholders and making sure they're happy. And so they got to figure out any which way to keep you on platform. The more you use a platform, the more you come on the platform multiple times a day, the longer you stay on the platform, the better off their algorithms look. And so they've trained essentially their algor algorithms to say, okay, what is this person like and how can I keep giving them more of that in order for them to stay on longer? The more I can get them to stay on longer, the more I can sell to advertisers, I can put certain messaging in front of them. And to be honest, the the social media's platform is designed to curate a feed for Matt and then curate a different feed for Nick. So, based on my activity, in a perfect world, I would only see ads and stuff that I'm interested in. So I'd be like, Oh, how do they know? I want this, and I'd click and buy it. Sometimes the algorithm goes wrong, obviously, and leads us down the path. But I think the point of what we were discussing was the algorithm isn't designed to make you happy. It's not designed to feed you the best of what's out there, it's not designed to empower you to live better. It's going to use whatever measures it can to transmit certain neurotransmitters in your brain, the dopamine hits and all that, to keep you on as long as possible, which is why there's such a thing as doom scrolling now. It's literally like these cuts to enforce you to keep looking and looking and looking. And unfortunately, for better or for worse, a lot of the stuff that catches people's attention is not the stuff that's the most healthy for you. It's the most outrageous stuff that's out there. It's the most people doing the craziest things and encouraging other people to do crazy things. And so, you know, it's it's an interesting challenge for me because one of the big reasons I believe our success on a on the platform from an advertising standpoint was just understanding human psychology. It's why do people make decisions and buy the things they do and what's going on in their brain to cause them to do that? Now, that could be a dark art if you're not careful because there's like very clear paths of manipulation that can happen. Or um, you can use it to find people who tell a story to themselves about who they are and help them become and build better people. And so I'll just have one quick story there. One of our clients came to us, and him, him, him and his wife, um, they lost four or six people over the duration of 18 months to cancer. And they just had enough. And so they went to the traditional medical system, and the medical system at that time couldn't really help them. And so they decided to pick up a handicam and travel around the world and interview the most intelligent people that they could find that would give them answers on how to how to beat this cancer thing. So they did that and they created a docuseries. And the docuseries ended up, this is about eight years ago, being called The Truth About Cancer. And then they came to us and they said, Nick, look, we we realize that media is going to be the way to get this message in front of the most people as possible. Can you help us? And so we did, and this ended up becoming a very successful 10-figure company down the road. But why that matters was I was sitting in Arizona, and I don't know if you ever remember or heard of uh the late Sean Stevenson. So he was called the three-foot giant, he had cerebral palsy, he was in a wheelchair, but he was a motivational speaker. Yeah, yeah. He's a good friend of mine, and at that time he'd always travel with um a security guard. Not that he needed one, but I think he just liked having like a young military kid that would travel around with him. And we were at dinner once, and I was talking to the kid, and I said, you know, how's life and what's going on? And I don't know how we got into it, but he told me that his mom got cancer. And back in the day, she watched a film called The Truth About Cancer, and it saved her life. And I said, Well, that's interesting because the founders, the people who created that film, are actually here at this event. Do you want to meet them? And he goes, like, that'd mean the world to me. So I took him to meet um uh the founders of the film, and the founders of the film created this video for the mom and sent it and called the mom and the mom's crying and everybody's crying. But it's when that dawned on me to say something like social media, when done well, could radically change and transform people's lives, but when done poorly, can can take lives away. And so, like that was the dichotomy that I was working with. It's how can I work with things that would help to promote the betterment of life versus some of the other stuff going on there? Totally. So

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Why do you think people get hooked into these loops of like some people who have no interest in politics? I'll just use that as an example. And then something happens, they get just stuck and it keeps going and going and going and going. Like at what I guess we we also have talked about how people don't understand that they can change their algorithm. Right. If they if they're tired of feeling this way, right? They're tired of feeling the anxiety, the depression, the highs and the lows, and there's not that like that baseline, that that line that's like, I feel good today. Right. Not to feel great, not to feel shitty, right? Right. That that middle piece. Right. And and how can we um how can we bring that forth that they can go and change their algorithm and and and change how they feel by just what they see? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

I mean it's it's a you touch on so many deep things there. Um, but it the first thing to your point is it is biologically and neurologically proven that you can affect how you feel by the inputs that you allow into yourself. Like I don't think anyone would argue that. Um on the one hand, sure, emotions and how you feel in anxiety are just chemicals in the brain that are firing, but you got to ask what's firing those chemicals. And to me, the word I use is inputs. It's what you allow through your eyes and what you allow through your ears and what you allow through your environment. So if you can't control everything that's happening in the world, but you can definitely control what inputs you allow into yourself. And the other side of it is I don't think people realize how easy it is to actually well, easy, simple, how simple it is to reorganize your algorithm. Because Facebook or or Twitter, well, X and all these, all these organizations are basically saying, how long is someone spending time watching a certain thing and how do they engage with the thing? So if all you did was reset your entire account, which you can with a few buttons and say, I don't, I'm not interested in anything you think I'm interested in and completely reset it. And probably before that, it'd probably be a good idea to like get off of it completely for a certain period of time, just to know what life feels like without having this nagging constant stimulation that's going on. Um, very soon I think we'll we'll all realize that we have addictions that we don't even know exist.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I went through, I put my phone away and got and got rid of my phone in total for like 72 hours. Yeah. And I caught myself watching birds, like looking at trees, watching the sunset. Like I unbelievable, like I'm like, holy, what was I missing the whole time? And and I had no idea how addicted I was to that phone. Right. I had no idea. I'm like, like you got the the the ghost vibration in your pocket, and you're like, what the heck is happening?

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

And I I I it would be interesting if like there was, I don't know, the whole world put their phones away for like a day.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Yeah, international international no phone day or something.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Imagine that, yeah. Like it would just be the whole, I think the whole place would just, it would just be that feeling of the whole world changing the way that they think, do, and act. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it speaks to the deeper human condition.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Like, never have we craved human connection more than right now. Yet simultaneously, never have we been so technologically connected and feeling so depraved. And so that just goes to tell you like the human condition desires connection, but we've been fed the lie that that connection comes digitally. And like, yes, there's benefits to digital. Like uh, my mother doesn't live in the same city as we do, and we can FaceTime the kids and have a conversation, and awesome. Like, there's benefits to that. Um, but to the other hand, I think we have been fed the lie that connection comes digitally. Social media is our connection to the world and to others, and that is playing on our brains all the time. And so the idea of even putting down a phone for 24 hours is scary as hell for a lot of people, including myself. Like, will the world continue? And of course it does. But I think step one is putting it down just to give yourself a little bit of a detox. Um, and then having the ability to come back to the algorithm and intentionally saying, Whoa, that that's motivational. That aligns with what I want. I'll watch more of that a little bit longer. And even if you watch something for five seconds, like a reel for five seconds, it's informing the algorithm. Oh, he likes this thing. And then you'll just start to see more of that and more of that. And all of a sudden, you can now curate an algorithm to actually feed you the things that you want and to inspire you and help you.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

Well, even on Instagram, you can see something and be like, I'm interested in this.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Right. Or even, yeah, let them know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

You can go in and just be like, I'm interested in this type of contact content, show me more. Um, which I don't think also people realize realize that. Yeah, right. Which I think is is worth taking a look at doing that as as people who are listening. But the loop of someone trying to find their like identity in that algorithm. Obviously, I'm in a business that sells the coolest cars in the world, the the things that hook people in, the things that um every influencer and every like media person uses. Yeah. And and it and it's funny because when when we're building this podcast and coming up with what we're talking about and like the the real meaning of it, of like of philanthropy and business and the entrepreneurial, like the the highs and the lows, and how you keep your mind clear, um, that that whole process through it and like being good things happen to good people and just be a good human and don't look for something always in return. Right. Just be a good person. The internet has taught us that if you're not like in the gym, you're not this like chiseled bathing suit model, um, that you won't be successful. And and and I and I can I understand that that is like my wife's like that. She needs to be in the gym. That's her, that's that's really good for her mental health. Right. For me, I can only do 20 minutes and it's like that is it. Right. I'm not, it doesn't keep me interested. I'm more like I like my meditation and my sauna and cold plunge. Yeah, it's it's a routine that's that keeps your mind clear. So what I'm trying to get at there is I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it has to be that. Right. That could be, that could be it, right? That, but it doesn't have to be everybody's. That as long as they find something that that gives them that clarity, that away from their phone, or just just to be with your own thoughts and and to just get clear. And I don't, like I said, I don't think that this the rhetoric that we've been told that everybody been is being told on the internet is the only way. Right. Because a lot of the people I sell cars to aren't that too. Right. Like I get to see the all walks, and and success comes in a lot of different ways. Yeah. And it looks different in every single person. And that it's it what it comes down to is just you have to be, you have to keep that motivation, you have to keep that that trajectory, but it doesn't have to be what everybody else tells you it has to be. It can be your own.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Yeah. I I the the cool things that you just said there is like one, and you have a perspective that most people don't, because you sell millions of cars, uh, millions of dollars worth of cars every week. And so, like, you get a perspective, like the internet gets their perspective of the people who buy these cars. You get a different perspective. Like, and so I mean, I think you you you said something interesting. I'd love you to elaborate on if possible. It's the people who are actually buying the cars. What uh percentage is a weird thing, and I know there's there's random things all over the place, but to your point of the metrics for success for individual people, I mean, what percentage of them would you even say are the people who just want to be the flashy guys or they they're the gym rats or the all these things that the internet portrays as someone who like what percentage of those would you think are those those people are driving the cars versus your normal everyday good people who who who don't aren't in the gym all the time and who spend time with their family are and philanthropic and and all this other stuff. I think it's important for people to know like who's actually buying the cars. It's not what you think. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I can imagine it's a hundred percent not. It's it's it's those people who have just like put the hustle in in different ways and been and been kicked and went down and went down and got into that like I think any type of success and any person that's been to or has current success has been super low in their life, like at the bottom, right? And it was what they learned climbing up that that journey, right? It comes in different ways, and and um there's it's it's not that person all the time. It's it's not, yeah. I mean, look at Dream Rally, right? For an example, right? I mean, those are just people who have like I grew up with cars on their wall and just grew up loving automotive and like love the feeling of like going out and driving, yeah, right, finding that clear road, finding that beautiful road, and just going out and just like that's that's yoga to them. That's right, that's what they cleared their mind with. And and as like men, I guess it a lot is we grew up with toy cars, we grew up with all these things, right? So you you always have that on your wall. And it's you know, I remember a poster, it was like the something to do with success, and it had like the Porsche, the turbo, right? And then it had the Kuntosh, the Diablo, right? And that was the pillars of success, right? Right. So I think that what people think that it's this flashy look at me, it's wrong. Yeah. Because it is just someone who's climbed that ladder, and that's just another rung in their ladder. Right. And everybody's allowed to have a different dream. Yeah. Right. Um, Ryder, my son's 18, and he's he said to me, He's like, you know, it's just that's not my dream. Like I love the cars you bring home. I love that. I don't want to be like you. I see the stress you go through. I I see all the things you've gone through. I don't want that. Right. Right. And I'm like, well, that's okay, bud.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

Right? You don't have to want, like, I I do have big dreams. I've had them since I was a kid, you know, and I'm not done where I am today. I still have somewhere I want to go. But that doesn't mean if you're listening, that that is what success is. Right. Because they're true to you. Just they're true to me. You, you know, he said to me, and it and it really stuck with me, and it and it really means a lot that he was able to even bring that up to me. Was he like, you know what? I'd I'd be happy with like, you know, a cool Corvette and and a you know, a small little house somewhere, I have a good view, and I get to watch the sunset. Yeah, I get to watch the sunrise and sunset. Yeah. And he's like, but then I get stuck in the loop. Sure. And go, okay, well, maybe I do have to get a Ferrari. Right? And and he's like, why does that happen to me? Yeah. And and if I'm not, you know, into AI right now and I'm not building websites and selling them, or I'm not, you know, out there hustling, I'm just being a kid. Is that wrong? Right. And I was like, oh my god. Yeah. Like, yeah, because I do that to him too, right? I'm like, dude, you gotta start a business. You gotta right, but that's my dream. Sure. That's that was what I wish someone told me when I was his age. Right. Where I think kids should be outside. Yeah. Riding their bikes, doing their thing, getting dirty. Yeah, right. And just like being out and having fun and not always having to worry about. And I mean, I guess it a lot of people will say, like, well, the world's expensive. So I get that too.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

I think there's two important things that people have to realize. Like, one, and I I and you would know this as well as I, because like we're the friends with the people who have the big followings on social who who might to a certain degree like show their lifestyle, which then causes other people to want that lifestyle. But like, I'll be the first to tell you the guy that's got the chisel dabs, because I got a lot of people in the fitness space, they worked four months to prepare for the photo shoot to get that to post on social so they can put a couple of pictures without a shirt on. And then eight months out of the year, they don't look like that. Like it, so it's not only are people saying this is the way to be, the misinformation is that's not how they are all the time. The health influencers were like, I will only eat this way. That is bullshit. I I go out with them, and they're they're not counting macros when we're out together, but like the persona is well, well, I'm counting macros, right? Um, I heard someone say, even with the with the whole car thing, I'm gonna butcher the quote, but something along the lines of like, would you have made that purchase if you knew no one was watching?

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Very good one. Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

And I think you you alluded to it a little bit when we're talking about the dream rally guys who all come out and drive the cars. I guarantee you that 90% of them, if no one ever saw them driving their car, they would have a smile on their face in some backcountry road somewhere, taking it for a rip because they haven't do it for others. Totally. It was for themselves. And so I think the first thing that people have to realize is like this standard of like this is the way to do it, not only is it wrong, it doesn't actually exist in totality. There's elements of it, so you're being fed a lie right off the gate. And then the second part to your point is I think the loop is being over-perpetuated. And this gets a little deeper into some of my like philosophy around this. Um but we put so much emphasis on our identities, but we don't take a step back enough to ask, like, the identity that I believe to be true about myself, is that really me? Or is that inherited? Because most of who we think we should be has nothing to do with how I feel about myself. It's inherited. Oh, my my mom wanted to be me this, be this way, my teacher wanted me to be this way, that person who made fun of me as a kid said I'd never amount to anything. So I'm gonna prove them wrong. And like, this is just inherited identity. And for some reason, we've never sat to question is this actually me or is this just all this bullshit that I've borrowed from other people? But if we don't question that, then the loop will forever continue. Like Ryder's a great example, your son, where he knows who he is when he's quiet enough to be like, oh, I don't want that, and I don't want that, and I rather just be outside and ride my dirt bike and have a good time. But because it's just constantly being fed from everybody else, oh no, is that really you? Come on, you want the car, you want the big this, you want that. Um, you know, it's it's natural for us to constantly question it. And so I think it comes back to what we've talked about. Like, can we find a moment where we put the phone down and find the space? What I like to say is find the space in between the thoughts. Because the thoughts will come and some will chirp. And here's another point I think it's worth making. It's like, not all thoughts that go on in your head are your own. Totally. You can be free about that. Like some of us just think every thought that goes through my head is a hundred percent me. So that good thought, that bad thought, this thought, oh, who I want to be, what I want to have for lunch. Like, some of those are yours, of course, you've come up with them. But if I were to ask anybody to control your thoughts a hundred percent of the time, could you do it? And the answer is of course you couldn't. So if you can't control your thoughts, are they all yours? And if they're not all yours, then do you have to believe every single one of them? Because most of us, we believe every thought that comes in our mind. If we don't have to believe every single one of them, then what does that actually mean for what we can be and what we can do? If I get a thought that says I should be like this, and instead of believing it, I just sit back and say, No, is that is that really me? Is that who I am at the core? No? Okay, well, then I don't even have to think about that. And I think that's what like slowly can start to get us out of this looping structure that a lot of us are caught up in.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

Because it's a lot of it is just is just finding that clarity and being okay with who you are yourself. And and I think, you know, people are also worried about. We had Casey Clark on the show, and we were talking about how um musicians and stuff are starting to come on and they're coming on online and things like that. And I think it's a really cool organic way of people finding that fame. But it's scary to do that because that you're putting yourself out there, and a lot of people are gonna be a lot more rude to you on the internet, sure. Than than if you were playing on the sidewalk, no one walks by and goes, You suck. Right, right, you're you sound terrible, right? Go home. But they will have no problem saying that online. Oh, yeah. So that's what makes it really difficult for people to really share who they really are, yes, which is really sad. Yeah. Because I think that's what social media should be is you should be able to share who you really are and not have someone attack you. Right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 40:12

It's sad. You said something that that like I think people might have overheard. It's like when you get the clarity of who you really are, it's such an important point because I think for most of us, like what perpetuates a lot of this, the person who's afraid to go online and the keyboard warrior behind who's willing to like hash out at you but never show you their face because they're safe behind their little keyboard on their desk somewhere in their mom's basement. Um the what perpetuates all of this is I think most of us have a deep underlying belief that who we are is not enough. And if we hold on to that idea that who I am fundamentally is not enough, no, no wonder we scroll in the feed constantly because I'm just looking for affirmation. Oh, I need to be, I'm not, I need to be like that, I need to be like that. And then someone else and come says something, and then, oh, I'm afraid to put myself out there on social and demonstrate my skills as an artist because I'm not enough. And what if someone else sees that I'm not enough and then they'll say something about how not enough I am? And like, what if, what if, you know, on the on the temple of Apollo in Delphi in the Greek, oh ancient Greece, there's one inscription on this this temple back in the day. And it they felt it was the most fundamental thing that anyone knows. And that's simple in Greek, but translated to English. The inscription says, know thyself. And somehow some of the ancient traditions believe that the most important thing that anyone in the human race can do is actually know who they really are. Because you know that. It's a really cool journey finding that too. Like the journey, actually, it is, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

I was at that point, dude. There's a there was a point in my life I had all this, right? And I was like, I'm not enough. Yes, right, right. And like, and and most people would look at that and be go fuck seriously. How? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? But but that has been the coolest part of my life is understanding that that I am, and that that journey getting there, and it just takes one foot after another, right? One step, and it just keeps you keep walking and keep walking and taking the path that you may thought you didn't want to take. Right. I never thought I'd be doing this, right? I never wanted to be, you know, we've had YouTubers and everything else buying cars from us, and I try staying out of it because I don't want to exactly for someone to be like to have that same feeling, like, oh, I'm not enough. Right, right. Right. And um that I don't give a fuck, because I know, yes, and now it gave me the courage to do something like this and be, you know, in this amazing building that I'm very grateful for. This the amazing people around me, the amazing experiences I've got, the amazing experiences I've had, the the people in my life who love me for who I am, not because of all of this. And and going through that process and learning it has to be the coolest thing. Right. That beats driving a fucking McLaren. It beats it all. Right. It beats it all by just putting one foot in front of the other, right, and going out, finding clarity, finding yourself and loving that inner Matthew of me. Right. Like that's I think we miss a lot is we don't look after that inner child. And um, I went through a really cool inner child uh meditation that put me on that path. And

SPEAKER_00 44:00

And I d I change I when I like I do meditate a little bit and and things like that and I I do go back to that You're okay that place Yeah right yeah for people going through that struggle and that that part of life where it's like fuck it's just too much take a step back Yeah and look Yeah and make a change Yeah not for anybody else but for yourself because it does everything but help everybody around you too it's amazing how that that transformation goes how did you get there not the details but I think so in our world we call it an inner knock like and those moments come at various times in life I find sometimes it's in the like the nuanced visceral sentimental time so like you're watching you lose your father or your mother like and then you're faced with oh I've uh there's something inside that's rumbling inside of me to to ask that question like why what why am I not content with my with my life or um uh a friend gets married and you're at a wedding or like I've even remember growing up having it where it's at the end of a Christopher Nolan film because that film just messed with my mind a little bit or inception or whatever and then the credits roll and like for a moment I can't leave my chair just yet because you're like who but then nine times out of 10 the average person will like feel the feeling for a moment and just be like okay and then like go on with their day and then the universe or circumstances whatever you want to call it like looks for the next opportunity to knock again and be like hey hey hey there's more like uh what was that for you like how how did you look balance uh and like I I I do I need I I I found that I do need that I can't just work and work and work and work and do all these things and then you know we're in a volatile business in a in a in a country and province that isn't I I should be careful what I say but right but it's not they like to make it harder for you to yeah it's not conducive for it so you know I spent time I was up in the Yukon for 26 days by myself with my dog.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Right and that was that was 10 years ago and I didn't took I didn't never took time for myself. And what what I ended up finding out with myself and in spending more time by myself was it's not this isn't what is supposed to make me happy. And I was like why am I not why not not that I was unhappy but it was something missing. Yes yes yes and what it what it was was that I wasn't true to myself and I wasn't I wasn't looking after that little boy inside me and and man does it make you feel grateful for everything that has happened in your life because I grew up with you know two parents who are still together and a great sister who's like a big serial entrepreneur and amazing human being who's always been there for me and I have a beautiful wife and a and an awesome stepson and all of these great things. Yeah and I'm like why is there something missing like what the fuck's wrong with you and and that's when it was like okay like what what are we doing wrong? Right right and that to me was pulling myself away putting my phone away putting my phone on DD and that I'm not just because I'm not there as soon as that phone rings for somebody it doesn't mean that someone's not going to buy a car or someone's gonna be like oh my God how could he he dare not answer the phone and right and it was to be I travel by myself a lot I go camp by myself and I and I just it's that and I reflect and I go back and I look back at old videos we've done and the content we've produced and where we started and where we are today and that really woke me up and being like dude look at this. Right and going back and it's it's interesting in my relationship with my wife too we sometimes go back and go like oh I feel like this year was boring kind of like we just seem busy. And you go back and look and you're like you finish going through the year and you're like oh my God we're we're cool. Like what all the great things we did. Yeah um but we forget because we get stuck in the race we forget we get stuck in the wheel yeah and we don't we don't get out and look and see and being present. I I for a lot of of my life was not present. Right right I I couldn't sit I would go to an event or something and someone would talk to me and whatever I would be thinking about work and this and that and all these things and I wouldn't be present and I watched life go to a point where I had to go back and look at it. I don't do that anymore. Right because I I I make it a priority of mine to be present in what I'm doing right now. Right in who I'm with and and giving that time to make a kid's day by pump you out getting gas in the car and kids like oh my god cool car like get in it sit in it yeah right yeah um and I think the more we do that as people and we share that's why Dream Rally really turned into something I didn't know what it was going to turn into. Right? It's now turned into something where these kiddos who have gone through such a terrible time in their life they just get this different feeling of like oh my God I have something I want to fight for and I just want to and it's like this rally I I have we have kids who have gone through you know trying to take their life right and they have such an amazing experience by these drivers who are driving these amazing cars and they're they get they're so excited and so because everybody's waving at them everybody's like cheering them on like you go and I think that in itself has just been like they're looking at this like oh my God everybody's cheering for me and for them to then look forward to the next year and the year after. Right. And the year after that that's why I will not stop doing this is because and I know it takes you a lot of time energy effort resources to do it. So for sure but we will never stop because it's it's something that is the DNA of our brand is giving back. Yeah and we have the coolest things in the world to do that with.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Right. I I think one of the things that actually surprised me most of Dream Rally was like I knew having a co-pilot who just need a little hope was going to be amazing. Like I knew getting around with other drivers and driving wherever we're gonna was going to be amazing. What I wasn't expecting and wasn't ready for were the thousands of people on the sidelines just waiting to say hi. And like the inspiration they got from watching the cars and the kids and everybody drive by and like that's when I realized of course this is about the kids and the hope that they get but the conversations that the drivers have afterwards and like what it did for them and all the people who are just inspired by seeing the whole thing happening. Like the the trickle effect was pretty pretty incredible. But just from one simple decision of like let's give some kids some hope like I I don't know the backstory of how Dream Rally happened but to see what it's become and I mean the the money raise is incredible obviously but I think there's these underlying effects that don't even get talked about that people get as a result of just witnessing not even participating just witnessing it. So it's pretty incredible. Yeah it's very true I never thought about the other the spectators you know it you're right though they are they come and they they bring their lawn chairs before the the rally even starts to sit to get a good seat for the cars that are going to take 10 minutes to drive by like it's it's so incredible.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

It is and it's just like the kids just they're waving and they're like yeah this is so cool and and like they're so cute because it's like these people are out here tearing them on because they know what this is all about. Yeah and it's it is it's so special and I and I and I think that again back to kind of where we started with this is like this podcast and what we talk about here is not viral content. Sure per se. Yeah yeah yeah right right right if you were to look at it it's like well no we need to be these cars need we need to rev these cars at the start we need to get someone's attention and and things like that and you know what I yeah you're right probably by the algorithm's standard right I am doing this wrong right because people the algorithm and people don't want to see the good stuff right and the and the the good stories and I and I don't know why because I don't want to scroll Instagram and feel irrelevant or shitty or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

I want to feel uplifted right positive and I want to be able to to scroll something and be like oh yeah right yeah and I don't know why we don't ask for that yeah well it's almost like that using the car thing like that what's it called the rubberneck effect it's like the traffic's not actually the traffic but if someone sees an accident that happened everyone's got to slow down and just turn around and stare for some like it part of it is our biology don't get me wrong like I don't think people realize that our nervous systems are designed in such a way just to keep us alive and it's a constant threat detection it's a constantly trying to detect threat and then simultaneously and this is the part of the mind that people don't realize is that people think our eyes and our brain is like a camera and we just take in input and we process the information and we go about our day. Neuroscience has shown us that our brains are not like cameras, they are projectors. So even before the data that comes in hits our brain, our brain because of our nervous system to try to protect us because that's how we are evolutionarily designed is sending up projections of what could be based on past, projections of what could be in order to keep us safe. And unfortunately most of the projections just because that's what keeps us safe is negative. It's like what if you get in a car accident? What if that person didn't text back, they didn't text back because they really hate you. No, they're grocery shopping or they're in the shower but our mind will project oh no no they're pissed off at me I said something wrong or whatever. And so I think part of the the liberty here is if you can just understand social media's role is just trying to feed you whatever you want, your role is to take that step back and just watch and ask yourself the clarity question. Like is this me? Is this what I actually want? Is this who I actually am? And then if you just recognize that the mind and your nervous system is doing its job, as long as you know what that job is, then you have that ability to step back and say, oh that that crazy thought that I had or the reason that I want to drive the nice car or the the perspectives I get, well those aren't always me. They're just being fed to me. And my brain is trying to make some calculations and projections based on stuff that's happened to me in the past like can I come back to my true inner mat, my true inner Nick and like live from that place. And I think as long as we know what role each chess piece does, then we can take some weight off of ourselves and say, okay well I just I see the simulation playing out but I don't have to to dive in and get all consumed by it.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

And I think that's a good segue into where you are now sure I think um sure and and before I touch on that I guess too because you I I believe that philanthropy in business is not is a priority. It needs to be a priority for well it is for me. Right. And I think it should be for every business right um and it has been for you you have given your time money you wrote a book you you you've done so much to give back why is that so important to you I I think there's two things.

SPEAKER_00 56:55

One is more like my personal story in that it wasn't until later in life I I don't want to sit here and say like there's a Ragsa Rich story or I lived a really hard life. I mean everyone's situation is is their own perspective on on how they went through but it wasn't easy. Right? I again like I said I I watched my dad have his first heart attack when I was four years old. I grew up with him in the hospital he lost function of his kidneys and ever since I was 15, I went with him to every dialysis treatment. Then I lost him when I was 19. I had my mom come in when I was around 18 years old into the house crying and I said what's going on she wouldn't tell me at first and then I found out it's because she applied for a job to fold laundry at a dry cleaner's but because she couldn't speak English they didn't give her the job. And so like I I if we get personal like my first marriage fell apart because of adultery. I was a pastor of a church my wife comes into my office one night and says Nick we need to talk you know never any good thing comes after that line. And my dumbass is like about what um and then she tells me she's been having extramarital affairs with some of the leadership in my church with like all these other people I knew of and some I did like my life was in shambles. And it wasn't until later that there were some people around me who just put out a a lending hand or a shoulder to cry on and just said like you're not in this alone. I got you you you can just fall on me and I'll help help you through these situations. And so part of it is just the realization that um if I didn't have people in my life who are willing to pass the ladder down and just like support and help when I was in my lowest it's easy to get that when you're doing well and everyone wants to be your friend but when I'm at my lowest I recognize that like there's a role for me to play in any way I can to contribute back and whatever that means I I don't even think I fully discovered what that means but if there's a way to do it, I can do that. And then I think one of like my fundamental philosophy is all suffering in life is a result of like three perpetual staggered realities or misrealities, illusions. But the first one is at some point early in our life we believe in the fundamental belief of separation. Like when we're a brand new baby and we're born actually the mind says that the baby doesn't know the difference between them and everything else and them and their mother and them and their surroundings. It's all just one thing. And then over time they start hearing no no that's yours this is mine. That's your hand this is my hand. You're you and this is mom and this is dad and and so the brain starts to understand this idea of separation. Well if separation is true that I am me and the world is out there and I'm in here that's a pretty scary world to navigate of you going through life by yourself separated from all other things. And the way the mind deals with that is then it then has to create an identity. Well if I'm separate from everybody else then what does that separation mean? So it creates this identity oh well I like this I like that I'm my mom told me I was smart and I'm funny and we get all these stories and we start crafting this little identity piece of ourselves. And then so the ego then or the identity the only way for it to survive is to create meaning to protect this story. Oh Matt looked at me the wrong way must mean that I I uh I did something wrong. And so like it has to make meaning out of something that is completely neutral.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

Right? Or I'm driving to work but there's traffic gosh darn it the universe hates me just wants me to be late today like poor old no the traffic is the traffic the rain is the rain the car broke down and didn't start like those are all neutral experiences but our identity says oh I have to make meaning out of it to perpetuate this idea of the separation. Now where I'm going with all this is when that whole structure collapsed for me personally. And I started to really realize there is no separation in the sense where fundamentally speaking, yes I'm Nick and you're Matt and everyone else is everyone else but fundamentally we are made from the same stardust the same frequencies that make up our body make up your body so fundamentally speaking we're actually the same. We're come from the same source. I think that did a number on me because as soon as I realized that every time I look in someone else's eyes, they're not different. They're of me we're all part of this thing together then philanthropy and service and value doesn't become a strategy or an idea. Like when I look at you you it dream rallying all the things you do is not a strategy to sell more a car. You'd do that if you didn't have any of this and like seeing you it's because there it's true to you. And so for me philanthropy and doing good deeds was a strategy before I understood this it's like oh this is just what I have to be triple bottom line help the environment help people help myself and then when I realized like when that structure collapsed and I realized no we're just we're all in this fucking together. And when you suffer I suffer on some weird level then all of a sudden you're like well what else can I do but try to bring value to those around me on some level whatever that means. And I think that fundamental change was where I started to realize like I'm not on my own. I've got to put my arm down again and help other people in that sense and um we're all the same. Like we're all we're all in this together living this one life. I used to say in some of the teachings in the world that I'm a part of a lot of people use the term I am like the I am is the fundamental thing that's running all this and I said yeah but I like to say we are like it's not I am and you are like we we are together living this life and having this human experience and so if that's true then um everyone we encounter is no different from ourselves and so I think for everybody listening to like philanthropy in a business or philanthropy or giving back or doesn't matter if it's a business or just you're just a normal person it doesn't have to be a dollar value.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Right. That it is just lending a hand going to cook meals for for the less fortunate to just go and help someone across the street right to open a door for you know an elderly person. Like you know that it doesn't it doesn't have to be this grand thing like Dream Rally is one of the largest charity events in the city now but that's not what you don't have to do that. Sure right right you just have to do little things and it ripples through to you know if you're a business owner it ripples through your business. Everybody then feels the need not the like they want to right they want to help it doesn't have to be a check it doesn't have to be that it can just be lending a hand and just being there for somebody else. That that is what that is too and I don't want it to get misconstrued that it's just a dollar value dollar value. Because without Dream Rally without without the volunteers of Dream Rally it it does not happen. Right. But those people are philanthropic right those people are giving their time so it all comes together because we all try and it's it's not one person donating a gigantic amount it's every single person putting a little bit in and I've said that from the beginning it takes an army to do something great it takes an army to do something that inspires others. Yeah and I think part of why I wanted to do this podcast too is to inspire other people to be a good person and to go on a limb throw the ladder back down. You know we we hear that a lot I think and especially with through the coaching guys and things like that that throw the ladder back down and it doesn't have to be in business. It doesn't have to be in anything it can just be in normal life. Yeah. Just throw the ladder back down.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

I I I heard a quote again I I I wish I could quote it and credit it properly but it's something along the lines of there is something you did for somebody that meant nothing to you but meant everything to them. So like don't don't devalue the little moments of even a smile or a handshake because maybe that's what that person just needed that day, having a rough day didn't know what the day was going to finish like. You didn't think anything of it you just lend a hand or give them a hug and said hi and walked away and that was the end of it. But Again, even the smallest thing that you you thought meant nothing to you could have meant the world to someone else. And if we just kind of like went through with that perspective, God, like the stuff that could be done.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

100%. Yeah. You are exactly right. That code is exactly perfect. So you changed direction.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:20

Yeah, yeah, I sure have.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

Heavily. In in your in your life. From from the algorithm king to all of these, like to billions of dollars of ads and and revenue you've put through doing what you did. And explain to people listening where you are today and what your plan is and what your next goal is and how you're, I believe, making a difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

So I think it was two things that were happening simultaneously. One was for most of my life, as long as I can remember, maybe it's because I didn't come from much. Um I was deeply involved in the personal development world. So I like, I read all the books, I attended all the events, I went to all the conferences, like everything I could to personally develop even more. I did. And in the midst of that, I still found that the vast majority of things that I was doing, despite following all the check boxes and whatever, was not necessarily leading to the life and the fulfillment that I was looking for. So there was like, there was that that was the undercurrent of what was going on. There was also the realization that, like, even when we were coaching and helping businesses, I could give two almost identical businesses the exact same strategy and help them out the exact same way. And yet one would take that and fly to the moon and 10x their business and do all these fancy, great, amazing things on paper. And the other person will still feel stuck. And as a student of like human psychology, I was like, what? How can two people get the exact same recipe and one make a delicious cake and another person make a disaster? Like, how does that what's going on there? So I started asking those questions. And then thirdly, similar to yourself, I think I was just in a place where like I had a lot of things going on. I checked all the boxes, I had the car in the house and everything, and that was all fine. But there was a deep underlying like, is this enough? Is this, is this everything? Is there something more? Is this my job on the planet? Is just to run ads and understand why people buy stuff. And a culmination of all of that happening simultaneously with me asking a lot of questions. I think, you know, the old saying, when the when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I don't know if I like fully align with that, but there's like a lot of evidence of my life where I think I was asking the right questions, I was thinking about the right things. I felt very stuck in the process of that. And one thing led to another, and we started having certain experiences that started getting me to question like the fabric of my reality. I'm happy to go into what those experiences were if we went if we need to. But in that, and in having some of these experiences, my entire worldviews crumbled. And I almost went into like existential crisis of just like, oh my God, everything I thought was true was not, and everything I didn't might be. And what does this mean for myself and my life and all this? And so my wife and I decided to sunset our marketing business and focus our attention and energy on the findings that we had come across over the last four or five years, and directly what that means to ending personal suffering and what it means to ending seeking, for example. Because I found that, like myself, there were many people in this perpetual trap of seeking, seeking till you never find, and always constantly looking over the next door. And is that it? Is that it? Will that thing do it? And I think if seeking causes suffering, so if we can end seeking, we can end suffering and we can start to understand all what that means. We decided to sunset our business and go all in on seeing if this is our our contribution to the planet. And so that's where a lot of our focus is right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

And we haven't talked about it. We don't even know what that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

Sure, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:22

Which which I think is fine. I think it's it's captivating in in how it's got here. Sure. So explain to me and explain to people listening and watching what that is now.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

So ultimately, what we're doing, we we've created, for the lack of a better term, and I hate making fancy terms for this, uh a protocol, an approach to understand if it's true that separation creates an identity and identity creates meaning making, and this is the recipe for suffering and seeking. Then my heart's desire and passion was well, how do we collapse this structure? And then provide someone with the structure that says, Well, no, you could choose the parts of your identity that you want to live. You could choose which parts of the algorithm you want to feed you, you can choose how you make meaning around stuff if you choose to make meaning. Part of this is, and I think we'll get into this. Like, we spent the last 18 months making a film. And the film fundamentally was asking the question of, A, what if life wasn't about becoming more, but unbecoming all the things you're actually not? And B, we are clearly not the first people on the planet to ask that question. I think that question's been asked for millennia. So can we go and find the experts and the people, the groups, the ideas out there that have been asking those questions and try to come up with an answer. And so what we did was we set out, we traveled to seven different countries, we met, we lived in a monastery for just over a week, met with a Buddhist Lama to ask, what is your perspective on these questions? Then we traveled to the Imperial College of London and talked to some of the leading neuroscientists on mental health and consciousness and well-being. What does that mean? Um, we talked to some of the leading psychedelic researchers and this like surge of psychedelic conversation and how that affects mental health and addictions and pains and depression. And then on the other side of that, what does that mean for this idea of consciousness and who we are when we walk through the world? And so through a combination of personally having certain experiences with certain molecules and doing this mass research with the leading voices on the planet on what this all means, we brought it all together. And now we have a protocol that is a combination of a psychedelic experience, uh some uh clinical therapy, some work with some doctors, with uh our Buddhist Lama, who's one of our coaches and works with people along that path. And we've literally created this process that for those who are willing and able to collapse the structure that causes suffering and then to rebuild a structure that serves you and to allow you to ask the questions to be clear about who is the young Matt and how can I be clear about what I actually am in this planet. And once I get clarity on that, what does that mean for when I'm like moving through life and showing up in the best way possible? Um, so we've created this thing that we're now taking people through, and the film is part of explaining that, and working with people is the other side of explaining that, but that's where that's where we're all in on right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

It's very cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:34

Yeah. So the documentary is unbecoming. Yes. Explain to me what unbecoming means.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

One of the most uh famous statues in the world right now is a statue of David. And Michelangelo was once asked, How did you create the David? It's such an iconic piece of art. How did you do that? And Michelangelo turned to him and said, Oh, that was easy. I just chipped away from the rock everything that wasn't David to reveal the David that was already in the rock. That's a pretty good summary from the perspective of I think we're often fed the understanding or the idea that in order to feel fulfilled and find peace and live prosperous prosperously and all these kind of things, you need to become more, you need to add more, you need to work on your mindset, you got to work on this, you got to add this, you got to get the car, you got to do all these things, and you just layer all this stuff on top. And from my own personal experience and from the thousands of people we've worked with in the world, um that doesn't work. Like it's a perpetual cycle of continuing to add because even when you hit the first finish line you thought that would get you there, what happens? It's hedonic adaptation. You say, Okay, I got there, I want the next thing. And you get there and you say, I want the next thing. And that didn't fulfill me, and that person didn't fulfill me. And all these things didn't fulfill me. So you keep seeking and seeking until all of a sudden you realize you run out of time. Or or it's too much, or it's way too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

You start stacking and stacking and stacking while you search and search and search, right? And it just starts crushing and crushing and it's not a good thing. Because there's more suffering, right? Exactly. Right? It's true. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:17

Yes. And so, like, fundamentally the idea is rather than becoming what if, what if the question was not like how do I add more, but how do I take away or how do I unbecome all the things that are not essentially me? And what if we started from the fundamental belief that you are enough? Yes, stuff happened, experiences happened in our life, things happened that started to like mask that a little bit and cover that up a little bit. But that doesn't mean fundamentally, who you are, the inner you, the actual essence of who you are, isn't peaceful and fulfilled and happy and excited. And how do I know? It's because we've all experienced that feeling before. We just misinterpreted that feeling to say, oh, I felt that way because I got the car, or I felt that way because I achieved the thing. And that's short-lived. But the fact that you could experience it says that it's actually there. And the getting, here's my here's my theory, and I'd love to hear what you think about it. And I use the example of ice cream. You really want ice cream, so you finally go to the store and you get the ice cream, and for a brief moment, you're like, this is so satisfying. Like, oh, I was thinking about this all day. Like, this is my jam, it's whatever flavor I love. And you feel so good and you're settled and all that. And then you finish the ice cream, and then you're like, huh. Let's go out to eat, or let's get a drink, or like whatever the next thing is. And the misconception for most people is I felt that sense of relief and that sense of like, ah, because I got what I was looking for. I argue it wasn't because you got what you were looking for. Because if you got what you were looking for and it led to that feeling, that feeling would stay, but instead you go for the next thing. The reason you felt that sense of peace and fulfillment that was underlying there the whole time was not because you got what you're looking for, was because in the brief moment that you got it, you stopped the search. And it's in the stopping of the seeking, the stopping of the search, where for that brief moment you have a chance to a chance to breathe. And in that breathing, you're like, oh, I've always felt this peace and fulfillment underlying the whole time. I was it was just masked with trying to get the next thing. But when I got it for the brief moment, I was able to breathe and not seek anymore. And so if that is true, and again, I love your take on it. Um it's internal happiness, is what you're right. That's always there. Yeah. That doesn't come from anything externally. We think it does. But if it's always there, like the illusion is when I get the thing, I'll feel the way that I want to feel. And the reality is you can feel the way you want to feel without ever getting the thing. And if that's true, then getting the thing is a byproduct. It doesn't matter. You don't have to get the thing to feel the way you feel. And so if we could do, if we could approach life like that, then shit, you'd be fulfilled all the time. And then toys are just toys, they're just add-ons and fun things to like elaborate on it, not to actually cause you to feel that internal happiness you thought came as a byproduct of the thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:25

So going through your guys' process, and so I think the Michelangelo's David is one of the best analogies I've heard, because it it's starting to become more out there that people are using psychedelics to find and break away and find who you really are. Right. And it's funny because we had we had talked about it, I think, when we chatted a while ago, but the way our world is today is we live in patterns, right? We can agree with that, that the world is patterns. And you know, we're in a we're in a place right now of like are we in a world war? Are we are we this? Are we what are we fighting for? We're fighting for AGI, we're fighting for all these things, we're fighting for um we're fighting for clout on the internet, you're fighting for all these things, and we're we're as as as humanities or as humanity, we're we're almost as low as we were after the depression, right? And we watched we watched alcohol become a terrible part of of our existence. And then we moved into the 60s and 70s of the psychedelics and peace and love, right? And and this like this place where the world, I think, was happy. Yeah. And and now we're we're where there's a lot more conversation about psychedelics and and mental health and things like that on on refiring neuroprocess neurotransmitters and and rewiring what is real. Right. And and taking taking you back to a child that didn't know anything, and taking all of chisel that that chiseling Michael David or chiseling David out. Yeah. And there's so much conversation about that now. It's there's there's a lot of conversation, even in the US and Congress, about psychedelics and sure and and what it's doing for mental health. Right. Um so like in your in your film, you from what you've told me, you guys show a lot of this in like first hand. Yeah. Um take me through take me through that process of of what a person goes through and and kind of what you've seen or gone through and what those people have seen look coming through the other side.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:20

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to say, just like anything, that any approach taken to anything like needs to be done with care. Right. I think the the the one tricky side about the psychedelic conversation that's being had right now is because, at least in the US, here in Canada, the the laws are different, which is why we can do what we do above board and have no issues with it. But for example, in the US, um, because it's a lot of the substances are considered scheduled one substances and they're not legal anywhere, it drives a lot of people underground. And then you have what's known as like we'll call neo-shamans, you know, who are just like, oh yeah, I can buy this thing off the internet and bring people to my basement and have them smoke a something or take a something, and all of a sudden they'll be better. And so I think there's like a word of caution that has to go out to say um the reason why Congress and the reason why some of these people, there's some bad reasons why they're stunting it, but the other reason is they just don't want um a whole bunch of people doing some silly things and and causing problems. But on the other hand, the research is clearly showing that these molecules have the capability to unwire years and years and years of wiring that has convinced us that we are things that we are not. And again, one of the questions I like to ask everybody, and I'll get to like what the psychedelics do, but one of the questions I like to ask everybody is who were you before your parents even gave you a name? Who were you before the labels started, like that child we're talking about? Who was that child before the labels were start starting to be attached, before they were shunned for something bad that they did, before your name was Matt, before any sort of qualification came to start creating this identity that we now live in, who were you then? Because, like, that's who you really are. And if if anything on the planet can take you back to that, whether it's a meditation, whether that's a psychedelic, whether that's some ritual or rite of passage in some cultures, like whatever can take you back to that essentially invites you to say, well, that's who you really are. What is the life and the beliefs you want to hold around that? And how do you want to like live a life according to that? Now, in our experience, one of the most potent and quick and powerful forms of technology to do that is a psychedelic. Now, certain ones do certain things. We particularly work with something called Five Me O DMT, also known as Five or Five MeO. And what's fascinating about that is reliably, clinically proven, when done correctly, as a starting point to a path, it literally will deconstruct and dissolve all the patterns that have been veiling that inner child, that true essence of who you were before all this stuff gets added. And sometimes we are so close to that that for us, it's not even an identity, it's who we are. We don't even question the way we think or the way we feel or the way we act. It's just who I am. And then sometimes someone will come around and says, Well, Matt, you're like that because you've had some trauma in your life. And then instead of that being freeing, that trauma story now becomes a part of our identity. Oh, I'm the traumatized guy whose dad said whatever when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:49

Or you don't even know you have trauma.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:50

Or you don't even know it exactly. It's like you don't, you have no idea. Right. And so my approach is like, rather than digging for the trauma, if it's even there or not, and maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. I don't downplay trauma. But what if there was something that could take you back to that child, to the true essence of who you are before all that stuff? And if something could take you there, and then you had the scaffolding and the frameworks and the practices and the rituals to retrain that back into you, to question the meaning making, to question the identities, to question your approaches on everything, what could that mean for you? And so what we found is 5MEO in particular is a very powerful molecule that has the ability within 12 minutes of inhalation to completely deconstruct every pattern, every identity, every all the things that have just been piled on to the true you of who you are. And then on the other side of that, once you can see that clearly, or you can take one step back and be like, oh, this is me, and this is all the crap that was just thrown on me, but that's not actually me. Okay, I've identified that now. Now I know who I really am. And then if you have the tools to be able to say, okay, if this is who I am, how do I then approach life from that place? Um, that's all we've done. Like that's that's our process. And so through what we'll call some people call it daily practices, we call it rituals, through neurofeedback training, through brain entrainment, and through the aid of a psychedelic, or in this case, five MEO, you can literally take someone back to their purest essence of who they are, without the stories, without all the other stuff, without all the attachments and the imprints and the pains and all that, and give them a chance to renegotiate their identities and how they approach the world, and then give them the power to question the meaning-making cycle in their brain. Man, if you can do that, the suffering starts to really subside. And now you are empowered with the agency to say, Well, I can then approach life however I want without the limitations and the conditioning, and that little naggie voice that says, No, Matt, you can't, you can't, don't even try. That voice disappears. What could be real and what could happen to someone if that voice goes away? So, like, that's the focus of the work.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

It's very cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:16

And I and I I am glad that there's more conversation around it because it does I think there's a lot too that people are like, oh, that's like we or right? It's like um, and I and I think it's interesting that you're bringing it to the public and and and and put this documentary out. Sure. That like it looked by the what I've seen of it, it doesn't look like a very good experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:40

Yeah, it's like it could be a rough go, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:43

It's like a it's like a death rebirth type scenario.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

Right. Very very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:48

Right, and it doesn't from what I saw of the trailer. It's it looks very harsh and and whatever, but I think you're right, though. If you can pull that stuff away and find out who you You really are. Right. And it's not like you're gonna go and do that and be like, I'm gonna quit my job. Maybe you are, maybe you are. I don't know. But I think you just kind of take a little step back, and I think it's just that ability to step back and look. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Right? Because none of us do that. Right. And and to your point, like some of the most transformative situations you were even leading to is when you were in the Yukon alone, when you spent the 72 hours in the woods on your own. Like, we're afraid to do that because if we do that, we have to face the voice in our head. Like, what do we do with the voice in our head that has been peppering us our entire life? And so, what this allows you to do, yeah, the the ancient Buddhists and the Sanskrit followers and the yogi traditions, they call it the watcher or the observer. And they say, like, what could happen if you took that one step back and rather than be fully integrated into the VR avatar role we play, and then take one step back and look at it from the perspective of like rather than playing the role, observe the role. And just the space that that creates to say, oh, I'm not my thought. I experience my thought. Like, think about some of the languaging that we use that I find is is is outrageous. You'll say something like, I am angry. Like, if you break down the semantics of that, you are saying, I am anger incarnate. I am the emotion of anger. That's not true. You are experiencing anger. You are not angry. And I know that's a subtle difference, but the moment someone even realizes that, like that's part of the work that in our follow-up and our integration, many people in the psychedelic world call what happens after a psychedelic experience integration, we call it disintegration because you're not actually trying to integrate anything, you're actually trying to disintegrate all the garbage that's in your life. In the disintegration process, if we can equip someone to simply, every time they feel anxiety or anger or feeling, to just disconnect enough to watch it and observe it. That's enough power to set them free to say, oh, I'm not actually the one who is angry. I'm just the one who's experiencing this feeling of anger. And the moment you create that little gap, and psychology is called decentering, where you're not the center of the universe and the center of everything, but you just disconnect from it enough, then you have the agency to be free from all of it. And so, to your point, exactly, it's it's the watching or the observing versus the full like embodying of whatever you're going through that gives you the agency to make different choices. And if you can make different choices, and it's through practice, it doesn't happen overnight. But now every time I recognize, like, does that mean I heard one sage say, and I can relate to this, he goes, before enlightenment, I was angry. He goes, after enlightenment, I was angry. I just recognized it. And I think like that's really refreshing. It's not like all the stresses go away and all of a sudden no one ever bothers you, and the thing your child does that always bothers you doesn't, it still bothers you. But now you have that freedom and that space and that gap to like just take a sec and to realize, oh, why am I responding this way? That's not who I am. That's just a pattern that seems to be coming up, but I don't have to respond that way. And if I can come back to who I actually am, who I am would never respond that way. When you start retraining that part of you in your mind and your brain and your nervous system, um, life just feels a lot lighter, despite nothing in your circumstances changing, but you just feel better about everything that's happening around you.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:47

It's very interesting that something like that can have that light come on. I guess it what it's doing is just sending that neuroreceptor a different tone, different signal. That's it, right? Yeah. And I mean, you can get a similar experience through breath work. 100%. Right? You you spend some time with monks and and things like that, and I'm and I'm sure you know they have a similar process. They do. And that's why you I would imagine that's why you were there. Yeah. Is to search for that and and see like what else has been out there. Because I, you know, you look at how humans have evolved and how what has been built, you know, a long time ago in it. And there has to be something that changes the way you think about something, the creativity you have. You know, these psychedelics are on the walls and pyramids, they're they're they're drawn in amazing places in the world, like the seven wonders of the world, it's probably found a lot similar places that that were built by humans. Right. And and I think it's opening their horiz the horizon to to different outlook.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:05

If if if what we said is true, what you said earlier was that like the world is made up of patterns, including ourselves. If that's true, and most of us who live our life are simply running on an automatic program, right? Statistics show that 90% of the thoughts we have today are the exact same ones we had yesterday. Why? Because it's efficient for our brain to only think things that we're used to thinking. So most of our life, if we're not intentional, most of our life is automatic, right? It's why we never have to learn to tie our shoes after we learn to tie our shoes. That would be very inefficient for our brain to relearn how to drive every time we get in a car. So our brain is actually programmed to be very automatic. Every time you get in a car, you know exactly what to push, what you don't even have to think about it. You get in the car, you put it in your gear, and you go. So there's a good side to that because it makes our life extremely easy. The bad side to it is we never question what we do anymore, then because everything is automatic. But if everything is a pattern, then if there are tools like psychedelics, like breath work, like meditation, like whatever floats your boat, the reason, and I'll admit this: the reason why I like a psychedelic, for example, is because it's just so efficient. You know what I mean? Like I was talking to the monks in the monastery, and these guys start meditating. I mean, they're meditating eight hours a day. A lot of them in there since they're eight years old and now they're like 20 years old. Like it's a discipline that frankly, I don't know if I have eight hours a day for 20 years of my life. Like, that's that's a lot. Do they get the same outcome eventually? Most of them. Breath work, same sort of thing, like different people, different things. Meditation, I personally have a difficult time doing traditional meditation. I've tried all sorts of types of meditation. I have a type that works for me now. Um, but if if we're talking about like the law of straight lines, what's the fastest point from point A to point B from an efficiency standpoint? I'll always opt for the most efficient outcome. And oftentimes um a psychedelic is a very efficient form of technology to get to that outcome. And so, but the point is again, is if if everything's a pattern and it's automatic, we need something, whatever that thing is, to come and just disrupt the pattern for a second, enough to create space for us to question why do I do this the way I do, or why do I ask this, or why do I react this way, or and all those things. And in the moment you can disrupt a pattern, now you have this ability to renegotiate if that's a pattern you want to keep. Or you have the ability, the agency to make a different choice to say, I'm not gonna react like that anymore. I'm gonna, I'm gonna react like that instead. And that's just just literally putting agency back into people's hands. Cause for the most part, if you talk to most people, mentally they know I have a choice not to live like this anymore. But their biology, their neurology, their history makes it feel almost impossible to break free from this. And so, like, even in the documentary, we we track two different people in two different, very different stages of life, having two very different stories. And you'll be the first to see. And I'm not a person who says, oh, you do this thing once and life is better tomorrow, and you don't have to do anything else. Like, there's work and you'll see the work that needs to be done. But in real time, over the duration of 18 months, you see individuals' lives changing, and not because they took a psychedelic, and not because of, but this combination of a practice that teaches the observer, that teaches the awareness, that says, I'm not the story I always thought I was. And you see them come out the other side. Do their problems go away? No. But are they much happier? Do they have way less anxiety going through those problems? Are they much more connected with those who they love in their life? Are they approaching life with a new sense of vigor and excitement? Like, I don't want to ruin the story, but one guy had this dream ever since he was a kid to take his kids and his family to Disneyland, but he could never afford it and he could never like come through the reality of it. And one of the ending scenes is he comes home and he's like, kids, we're going to Disneyland. Like it's a small thing for some, but to see the progress that individual made is it's it's phenomenal. How long did it take you guys to film this? Almost two years, like 18 months to two years. Um, a ton of time, energy, resources, obviously, because we're we traveled to seven different countries, we're tracking the lives of four different people, like going through. Yeah, it it took some time, effort, energy, resources. And there's a few times where I was just like, ah, I don't was this all worth it? Like, this is a lot. Um, but hopefully, hopefully after we know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:53

Take me back to Nepal. Yeah. And in a monastery. I I my sister and I did Everest at Base Camp. So we were we were lucky enough and to get up to the monastery where they where all the climbers go up and they get to um the monks wish them well and they they do their whole ceremony. It was really cool because we got to see some climb early climbers. We were up there uh just before climbing season, and we were up there to see that happen, and we got to be in the whole thing. And uh we actually played soccer with the monks at 17,000 feet. I love it. Um with them. But I'm being there, what did that do for you? Like, did that was there something you took out of that?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:41

One of the traditional ideas um in Buddhism is something called bodhicitta. I didn't know what this was before I got there. I didn't have much understanding of of Buddhist culture before this. Bodh uh bodhicitta basically means if you're gonna sum all things into its simplest form, it's love and compassion to all sentient beings, is the is the foundation of the idea of bodhicitta. I haven't heard that term before, but the concept of love and compassion to all sentient beings is like we all think about that. Of course, you do, of course. The greatest takeaway for my wife and I was seeing that in reality. Like, yes, these monks meditated forever and they got up early, and man, the the meals suck in a monastery. Like it's lentils and non-bread, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, right? Because the the one of the Buddhist philosophies is just simplicity. If you don't think about what you need to eat, one, you know, and I mean, I actually got into a a mini debate, if you will, of like how much better could they be if you actually feed them nutritious food?

unknown 1:40:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:07

And I'm like, how come the monks don't do exercise? And they're like, no, no, no, it's all about the mind. And I'm like, but how much better do you think they could meditate and do things if if they actually just went for a jog? And like, anyways, that's a side story. So we're we're there and they're meditating and they're eating these meals and they're doing whatever. And there was a language barrier because they're from Nepal, so they speak Nepalese and various other languages. But the demonstration of seeing in real time and being around people who truly live love and compassion for all sentient beings. Like, you know, the old saying that like there's some things that can be taught and there's other things that just need to be caught. Like this was one of those moments where I could have read that in a book a million times. I could have had a the Dalai Lama look at me in the eyes, his holiness and said, Love and compassion, son. And like, okay. But when you live an experience where this just oozes out of these people's souls on a daily basis, and it's not a theory, it's who they are. Um, that was probably the greatest takeaway of just like straight up love and compassion for all people. If you could just live with that as your guiding light, you'll be all right.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:29

True.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:30

Yeah, very true. Yeah. Um we'll we'll do what I call the last slap. Okay. Um, you and I both run businesses, and we both care about winning. We care about the scoreboard. We we care about what success means to us. What does success mean to you now? Because that's changed for you, I would guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:55

Yeah. I there's all these like ideas go through my head. Like one of them is like, hey, did you did you fulfill what you needed to do in the world? Whatever that was. But even that, there's a sense of meaning making to that, right? I think, you know what? You nailed it earlier of what you said. And I think this is to me, success in the past was performative. It's all like hit the goal, do the thing, drive the car, whatever. If I do those things, whatever that list was for me. Like it wasn't even other people's list, but it was my own list that I had for myself. But it was performance. I'll measure success now based on presence. Was I, am I here? Like it's a funny question because where else can you be? Like you can only be here actually. Now, yes, your mind could try to go to the past, which technically doesn't actually exist. And I know that's a weird, we can get into weird questions about that. But if I ever asked somebody, could you ever go to the past? Like, could you actually buy a ticket and go to the past? No, you couldn't. Could you go to the future? No, you can mentally come up with ideas of the future, but you can't actually go there. So then all that actually exists is the present. And yet, because of again, this brain of ours that's evolutionary, evolutionarily like archaic, our brain only looks at the past and the future and is very rarely here in the now. And so I think my my current, my past definition of success was performance. My current definition is presence. Can I be, can I be present in every moment that's before me right now? No, with presence comes success. That's the the the great dichotomy of it all, right? Yes. Yes. When it's not a strategy with presence, it is inevitable that whatever it was different for versions of success, but it is inevitable that success is not the byproduct of that. So it's it's an it's an incredible dichotomy, and yet most people want to go the other way first, like the performance, and then I'll be present. But if you can be present first, then yeah, it all just comes anyways.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:20

All of it. Yeah. I think um I hope for the people listening, I hope this was impactful. And I hope that there's pieces that people can take and really like kind of dive into. We talked a lot about just good things happen to good people, treat people I was growing up like this, treat people that want to be true as yourself, and starting there for people listening, and and I think taking little bits and pieces out of this um I think is the most important part. And I guess my last question would be those people that can hear that whisper, what's next? Like, is it learning more about how to find clarity, internal happiness, and like the the real core of that? Um how do people learn more about what you're doing now? Other like following your social media and things like that, which we'll put down below here. But um, yeah, I guess when someone hears that whisper, because I think we all have it. Yes, with what you've learned, what does someone do with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:44

I love that. The immediate question I'll always ask somebody is what's knocking? Like, what's a whisper saying? Like if you just get quiet enough, it's not just a a nudge to do something, and not do in a performative way, like do in a presence way. For some, it's hard enough to just hear the whisper. But if you're quiet enough to hear the whisper, then the next question is or the knock. It's what's the whisper saying? And I think if you're quiet enough, that answer comes. And for some it's call your dad who you haven't talked to in five years because of that stupid thing that happened, and just say, I want to hang out. For someone else, it's put your phone away at at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. when you come home from work and just be present with your family. For some, like what it's different, it's gonna be different for everybody. But I think it leaves a trail breadcrumbs. Like the first thing so you call your dad, you end up going to coffee, and that's gonna lead to the next thing. And it's it's gonna be say something nice to your partner, and then it's gonna lead to oh, maybe you should read that book.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:00

All of it truly does point to the be quiet enough to find the clarity, and that and that whisper is uncomfortable, very, and I and I think that's that's what I found that the whisper was very uncomfortable, right? It's a great point, and and to have that conversation or do whatever you need to do is uncomfortable, and and and and you need to just trust yourself and and live in that uncomfortableness. I mean, we run, we hide, we push, we push down, we we make it go away as soon as it gets uncomfortable. And I think that's probably the maybe the first step in that in that whisper is to just be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:43

And it's it's it's not exotic. Like we're used to being uncomfortable. The first time I drove a car on a racetrack, I was very uncomfortable. The first time I walked my first steps, the first time I rode a bike, the first time I learned math, the first time I uh tried a new skill, golf or I shouldn't use it. I still don't golf. It's terrible. Um, but the first time we do anything, like I think people think, oh, the the uncomfortableness is foreign and is exotic because it's something new. But if we just replay when you had to learn how to walk, when you have to learn how to speak English, when you had to go to school and learn math and all these things, these were always uncomfortable at first, but it's just part of the learning, it's the evolutionary process. It's how we develop and it's how we grow and it's how anything happens. So if you're just reminded that yes, it's uncomfortable and yes, it doesn't feel good, and yes, it's difficult, but that's not foreign. You have done uncomfortable things in the past that you've loved. You've everything you are today, the business you run, the marriage you have, that all started with with discomfort. So if you just remind yourself that, hey, you've done this before, you can do this. Just take the presence to actually do it. I think it's a it's a good reminder for people to take that step.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:59

Thank you so much for for being on here. And um, you know, for for those listening and stuff, our first episode was we talking to a family through Dream Rally, actually. And awesome. And they they have a really um amazing story of spending two years at Ronald Donald Hospital into BC Children's. Oh wow. Um and that what we do in this podcast and and on all the content we do is we are giving back part of the proceeds and what we make of doing this and on sponsorships and things like that, and um and that give the ability to people to listen to that episode and go to our website, August After Dark, and donate if it's something that really that really hits home to them. And if that's not able, just go out and do something for somebody that you normally wouldn't do. And so we'll leave it at that. Thank you, Nick. You're Appreciate you so much. I appreciate everything you're doing. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:02

I appreciate you. You're an inspiration inspiration to me. You're an inspiration to this town and the city and the entrepreneurs in here and everything you're doing, whether you know it or not. And like literally, the from the first day I met you and all the things that you're doing, you're inspiring this town to do better things. So I'm I'm just honored to have sat at this table with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:21

Thanks, buddy. It takes a team and it takes it takes a lot of us to make a difference. And again, appreciate you and thanks everybody for listening. Yes. We'll see you on the next one. So good.