Wisdom For Wives
Shaping women in truth for every generation.
Wisdom For Wives
The Marriage Behind Wisdom For Wives
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Before I ever speak to wives about marriage, I wanted you to hear from my husband first
And this opening episode of wisdom for wives Brian and I share the heart behind this ministry. What God has taught us through nearly 30 years of marriage and why biblical wisdom still matters in a culture filled with conflicting messages about marriage, family, and womanhood.
This conversation lays the foundation for everything that follows on wisdom for wives. Our prayers that you are encouraged challenge and inspired to pursue God’s design for marriage and relationship relationships.
Welcome to wisdom for wives—shaping women in truth for every generation.
The first area where I would say that it took great faith is in actually marrying you, but it was actually in seeing the real you. Me coming from the position of hearing God that this is the husband, this is the man for me. Who am I to think that I deserve to go into marriage and not suffer? What makes me think that God has said to you, Tara, that just because you're obeying me, you're not gonna suffer. You're not gonna go through in your marriage.
SPEAKER_00The greatest challenge is when someone just has not been sanctified, consecrated in their relationship with God. So this was probably the greatest weakness from a personal standpoint that I would bring into the marriage is that I did not have self-love. That's right. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And so you were hearing some things. Yes. I was hearing some things.
SPEAKER_01I knew that I couldn't marry somebody that wasn't of faith. Like I don't even think I had to know the scripture for that, but I knew internally I didn't want that either. I said to you that I was not gonna do life with someone that wasn't a man of God. And I went through all these mirrored of emotions, and then I realized wait a minute, that couldn't be the devil because he would never tell me that I'm gonna preach the gospel.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the podcast, wisdom for wives.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Wisdom for Wives. My name is Tara Lewis. I believe that before I ever speak into marriages, that you needed to hear from my husband. Brian and I have been married nearly 30 years. And as I was writing my book, Wisdom for Wives, I realized that we have lived every chapter through real experience, real trials, real growth. And most importantly, we've seen the faithfulness of God in every season. So we're inviting you into our story, chapter to chapter, where we can share our lessons, our triumphs, our victories, and the wisdom that we've gained throughout the way. So the first chapter is faith.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And interestingly enough, we got married in less than three months.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Two months and twenty days of knowing each other. And it definitely took great faith on both of our ends. Me becoming a Christian within a week of that time of getting married. So we knew each other. I wasn't saying Somebody's saying, What? I know you were missionary dating, you know, min ministering Christ to me. I did get saved. I don't know if you want to know that story, it's detailed, but it took great faith to receive Christ, to marry you, and then instantly become a husband and a father, because we are part of a blended family, and from cultural differences. At that time, I had lived my life as a Jewish man, but not really religiously Jewish, just kind of ethnically Jewish. And so the ethnic challenges, uh, not that you had a strong ethnicity, but still just the differences and the imbalances, and it just took great faith. I mean, dude, I had no money. Yeah, yeah, no job. I was in law school, you know. I mean, dude.
SPEAKER_01And I I would say that definitely even for myself, because here I am saying yes, yes to God, yes to you. I had been married before, but like you said, almost somewhat of a cultural shock. But for me, it was, I don't know if the word isn't, it was exciting. It was exciting because, you know, I said to you on that phone call, you said I'm Jewish, and I said, so is my Lord and Savior. So for me, the culture aspects was very intriguing, and I was excited about that. As it relates to just faith, it was primary when we met. Yes. You know, it was within 24 hours and 48 hours of meeting, I was witnessing Christ to you.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I saw Tara the day that she joined the gym and I pursued her kind of in my mind at first. I mean, I knew who her personal trainer was, and I knew her workout schedule, and I wanted to make sure that I was there to meet her. But I knew she was fantastic. And, you know, I had always been attracted to black women and just kind of wanted to get to know you. And so I made sure that I was there on a day that you were receiving personal training sessions, and we just spoke and we went to breakfast that morning and then exchanged numbers, and then that night we spoke on the phone for about three hours. And that's where we really made this connection. That's where you might have been, you know, kind of seeding out your relationship with Jesus. And I was seeking. So the night before we actually met each other, I love this. I prayed a prayer that was passed down to me from my great-grandmother, just a generalized bedtime prayer, but I tacked on to the end of it. I said, God, if you're real, I want to know you. And then I I really met you the next day. And then I mean, dude, he answered that. I I don't want to keep saying, dude, it doesn't sound, you know, like I'm educated, but I mean, it just miraculous.
SPEAKER_01You know, so I should I should share that the same day that you were praying was the same day that I was writing in my journal, and I had these emotions that I didn't know how to describe, but I was putting pen to paper and I wrote, I'm scared. And I wrote that three times. I'm scared, scared, scared. And I was like, Oh my god, what am I scared of? And then I wrote that I'm ready for a meaningful relationship. And we met the next day, and that's pretty profound.
SPEAKER_00This is a pretty mean meaningful marriage.
SPEAKER_01Yes, amen. Look at where we are today.
SPEAKER_0030 years later.
SPEAKER_01I'm ready for a meaningful relationship. I was speaking about curses, and so faith is what you know, maybe not in essence of you seeing me, capturing me in the spirit realm, it was because God was answering our prayers.
SPEAKER_00Well, faith is trust, reliance, and adherence to what God has said, like his word and what he speaks to you in your heart, you know, what you hear in the ear, do that. He has a level of expectation of our obedience, which is to hear and do. Right. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And so you were hearing some things. Yes. I was hearing some things. I know you said you heard God audibly, so that took some faith for you, especially considering the fact that I wasn't born again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I knew that uh even in you sharing, you know, I was my my journey was just beginning with God. I didn't know a lot of scripture. I knew that I couldn't marry somebody that wasn't a faith. Like I don't even think I had to know the scripture for that, but I knew internally I didn't want that either. I said to you that I was not gonna do life with someone that wasn't a man of God because I had done that already. Four days after our meeting, I was washing dishes, Alexis was at school, I heard audibly in my right ear that Brian will be your husband and you both will preach the gospel around the world. Yes. And I dropped to my knees, I ran to my room, tears were coming down. I didn't know if that was the devil, if that was God. And I went through all these myrative emotions, and then I realized wait a minute, that couldn't be the devil because he would never tell me that I'm gonna preach the gospel. And so I never shared that testimony with you until after we got married in January. So I mean, faith has definitely it's been the initiator, the spirit of God bringing us together.
SPEAKER_00I know we're not giving every aspect and detail of our lives and every moment of just, you know, you've been here for 30 years, but we put works with our faith. So the spirit of faith is, you know, without faith without works is dead. It's really not real or true faith. Now we're not talking about saving faith, you know, that is just a one-way street, meaning you don't have to have any kind of outworking or, you know, your works demonstrate your faith. So we were putting forth action. We had belief, we had trust, we had reliance on the fact that God had spoken over this marriage and that it was a God-ordained marriage and conviction with corresponding action. We took the steps. That's right. And that's what faith is. And I like Dr. Martin Luther King says it is that faith is taking that first step, even though you don't see the staircase. And that's kind of what it was. We didn't see 30 years in advance, right? We just saw right then and believed it was God.
SPEAKER_01Yes, two different backgrounds, yes, too. I mean, everything about us was almost polar opposite.
SPEAKER_00But we loved each other and we believed it was God.
SPEAKER_01Amen. Yes. And so my next question for you, I guess I would say is can you remember a specific moment where we had no choice but to trust God completely?
SPEAKER_00Yes. 30 years of it. Yeah, it's there's so many, it's unbelievable. But I would say the one where we were totally bankrupt, lost everything financially, living in an 11,000 square foot home and on the verge of being put out of that home and doing our best to declare bankruptcy at the time. And it didn't transpire in Atlanta, it finally took place later on, you know. I mean, and it was a whole season. So we were going through a whole season where weeds were growing, cars were being repossessed. We had to trust that God was gonna see us through the this was probably the greatest.
SPEAKER_01Um can I interrupt you for a second? Because since we're on the first chapter and it's on faith, and I know we're gonna jump to the fiery trial. That's a chapter in the book had to be. But I actually want to go back and say when it speaks of faith in the beginning of our marriage. Oh, okay. Um, the first three months, you remember you being in a piece of you remember being at a restaurant.
SPEAKER_00Yes, hamburger Hamlet. Remember, I'm just a new Christian. I've never been married before, I've never had kids, I've never had financial responsibility. I mean, other than being in the Marine Corps, I never lived pretty much away from home. So I was back at home, going to law school, living with my nan and papa, my grandparents. You know, this is the first time I'm on my own and having all kinds of responsibilities. And I my fate was tested. Yes. I went I got homesick and was questioning, you know, and this is what faith will have you do. I was questioning every decision that I had made because I was out of my comfort zone and it was challenging, and fear attacked my mind. And so I got on the phone and was calling my grandmother and telling her I wanted to come home. But we were already married, yes. That's so we had already done like there was no turning back from that.
SPEAKER_01They need to know that the reason we was challenged, but you were away from the table. You went to the restroom, you were away from the table for a long time.
SPEAKER_00I don't know, it must have been like 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it was definitely 20 minutes. I got up and he's on the phone. And the you know, this is when they had phones, uh, phone boots, you know, you were on the phone. I agree. I think that was set first.
SPEAKER_00That was a challenging moment for us. And had I given in to faith, I would not have seen the glory of God. Had you given in to David said, I I would have lost heart had I not believed to see the glory of God in the land of the living. Right. It took courage, right? And you were you were like, I had to make a choice. And sometimes faith will bring you to a place where you have to make a choice. Either you're gonna go back to yesterday or you're gonna trust God for your right now and your tomorrow. In marriage, there is no looking back, there is no going back to that place where you know Nana and Papa were taking care of you and you were in law school. No, if you believe that you heard God, it doesn't mean that you're not gonna be challenged, it doesn't mean that you're not going to feel fear or apprehension, exactly, but you trust him through those seasons, especially when you know it's God, because you know that he has something for you on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, because God is good. And I'll I'll add to that because the first area where I would say that it took great faith is is in actually marrying you, but it was actually in seeing the real you. Okay, you know, seeing the piece of work.
SPEAKER_00What a piece of work. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01So so seeing your tendencies, your flaws and your faults, and seeing that, you know, early on uh tension rose in our marriage, and I had never experienced anything like it. Yeah, you hadn't. But me coming from the position of hearing God that this is the husband, this is the man for me, like that was an area that I had to, I actually had to say to myself, and you know this, that who am I to think that I deserve to go into marriage and not suffer? Like, what makes me think that God has, you know, said to you, Tara, that, you know, just because you're obeying me, you're not gonna suffer, you're not gonna go through in your marriage. And I had to really check myself and realize that wow, you know, we didn't really know each other, and I don't really know what I'm getting.
SPEAKER_00That's part of it. And then part of it was you had just rededicated your life to Christ. So I'm gonna say that you didn't know God like you know God 30 years later.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know God at all. And so the issue and the greatest challenge is when someone has not been sanctified, consecrated, set apart in their relationship with God, even though they may be saved, I hadn't even been water baptized by the time we got married. The challenge was that I didn't know anything about Christ per se. You know what I mean? Like I know now.
SPEAKER_01Now we had to I had to give you grace for that. Because even because I think the first argument that we had was on faith.
SPEAKER_00You were concerned and fearful. But that's hard because, like, especially when people's faith levels are no, but this was all all of us, yeah, both of us lose. Your faith is so great that it almost borderlines on presumption, and my faith is so small. It's like mustard seed level, where I approach every situation with I believe, but help my unbelief.
SPEAKER_01So I think, I mean, you said some great things, and I I believe that people of faith need to realize that marriage is going to test your faith. To test not just your getting along with one another, but you actually trusting God about your husband or you actually trusting God about your wife. But that's an area of faith. And sometimes we leave it to just external things or just where we are in our faith with God based off of, you know, Him doing something for us. Right. But even sitting here thinking about it, 50% of marriages, 51% in the church end in divorce. I wonder really if it comes down to really faith in God.
SPEAKER_00And you said something which is great, meaning, like I just kind of heard God in it as you were speaking, is that our marriage survived through times where there wasn't money, where there wasn't like God doing something like, you know, bring us out multi-million dollar level. I mean, we've had that, but I'm just saying, so like if your marriage is broken in the lap, your marriage is gonna be broken even when the windfall comes. And so if your marriage cannot sustain the storms, the challenges, the trials, the troubles, it's not affixed to the rock, but it's on sinking sand. It's not gonna survive when technically the blessing comes. Right. And is it really the blessing? Because it's only really gonna expose the poor foundation of the marriage in the first place. Right. So, like for us, the foundation of our marriage was built on the challenges of two people becoming one. Yeah, and then the Bible talks about being of one faith. Yeah, I believe we're there. Do we agree on everything? No, but we have one faith. We are one in our faith, we're one in Christ, and then we're one in the trajectory of this marriage. At this boy, we don't need to use faith to know whether or not it was God who called us together, but right.
SPEAKER_01Okay, chapter two, marriage. What do you believe has been one of the greatest strengths in our marriage over the years? I would say, in your ability to come to me, and you're probably gonna be the break. That was gonna be the one I was gonna use. But I get to say it for you, yes, is that you have always come to me to make it right. Yes. You've always come to me, whether it's not necessarily sorry or it's like, okay, I messed up in that area. Right. You've always come after me, not perfectly, not 100%, but I have could believe that our marriage and the strength of our marriage has contributed to the fact that you've been willing, even when you haven't wanted to, to come, because I have not, and I can admit that before you even say it, that I have not been the one that has always come to you to make sure that are we're reconciling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I mean, I would definitely say that in this marriage, I have been the peacemaker. Blessed are the peacemakers for they're the sons of God. If it wasn't for one of us emerging as the peacemaker, it's very hard to make peace when you guys are con there's contention, strife, whatever. There's stuff going on. You gotta kind of wait for a quiet moment. Don't try to rehash your argument or what have you. But I've always been the one that kind of comes to you. And maybe God allowed that because, you know, uh, like if we didn't reconcile, there wouldn't be the love making. And I do my best to be patient, understanding. I'm not saying I did it perfectly over this marriage because I didn't, but I I strive to do it, and I'll just be the first one to initiate. I'll try to repent for my area and actions and do my best to bring reconciliation to the marriage. And so I believe that that's been my greatest strength. And then I would say, like, yours would be to receive that, amen, and then allow the marriage to move forward. Amen. Now I have had to say to you this is a lot like women, like once they feel a level of injustice, something in the marriage where that's it, you know, just kind of not want to communicate or they want to just unload and they're angry. And you know, with you, I believe that you guard your heart with all diligence because out of it flow the issues of life, so that you're you're guarding, but you're angry, you're not trying to get over into bitterness or resentment or whatever you're feeling, right? But it is causing friction in the marriage, you know. I would say this is that because of the way that you are, I have to be the first person to do it. And I'll ask you, is this a 24 hour, 48 hour, 72 hour? Like, how much space do you need to get over this? You know, like hopefully it's not, I don't think anything's lasted past 72, praise the living God. But that aspect of you it takes two. Yes, you cannot reconcile on your own. And sometimes the greater is the one that can forgive 70 times seven. Sometimes the greater is not the one who did the wrongdoing. You both probably do wrongdoing in the arguments and what have you. And we used to use scripture against each other in a big way, which was kind of detrimental to one's personal relationship with Christ. It's very difficult to be using the word as a weapon. Right. But we grew past that. That might have been our greatest weakness was using the word as a sword to cut instead of as a bomb to heal.
SPEAKER_01That's true, very true. And I would say that one of the greatest principles that I learned that it took time to nurture it and to, you know, always apply it. But it was indeed to realize that the longer that I hold on to this, the longer that I sit with it, the longer that I meditate on it, the longer that I think about it and really look at like how you treated me or what you said or what you had done, we were going to be further apart. Wow. That it was going to cause me to want to not be close to you. So I learned that, you know, yeah, you can think about it for a little bit. And then I guess the greatest part was that I would take it to God in prayer. And then I would know that I could release it, let it go, and then truly know that it's over with because it's holding on to it wasn't going to get us anywhere. Right. And your attempt to make it right was always better because at least as a woman, I think that we can at least say, well, he's trying to make it right. He may not be saying it perfectly, he may not be making up the best way, but he's trying. And I think that's what's important is to recognize when your husband tries to make it right, whether you didn't always use words. Sometimes it was coming up behind me and kissing me or touching me or asking me, can I kiss you?
SPEAKER_00You know, gifts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sometimes.
SPEAKER_00So that was that's Yeah, I never bought you off that's great, you know, with gifts. But I wanted to say this is that you said something and it kind of dropped in my heart. I don't know if it's if the scripture goes this way. It's if a man loves his wife, he loves himself, or is it yes? So this was probably the greatest weakness from a personal standpoint that I would bring into the marriage is that I did not have self-love for the longest period of time. I would actually see think that self-love for me did not even start until like two or three years ago, like for real. And it was a challenge, and it still is kind of a challenge. And I think we mass self-love with pride, arrogance, materialism, superficiality, being looks conscious, looks maxing, you know, wealth maxing, whatever it is. And because I didn't love Brian, it was I couldn't love you, yeah, even though I wanted to. Yeah, and so I mean, it goes back to even the original command of Christ, which is to love God and love others as you love yourself, and so for me. Me, love has always been hard. You know, I'm not trying to get into the child.
SPEAKER_01I want to just say thank you for sharing that because it it kind of answers the next question. What have we both learned about love, sacrifice, and communication that we didn't understand early on? It's so amazing for you to recognize it and even bring it to the forefront because I had to accept in knowing those scriptures and reading that word, I knew obviously being married to you, I knew that you had a hard time loving yourself. Yes. This is one of the greatest challenges of your life because of your childhood, because of your upbringing, your biological father. And it was hard for you to accept God's love. For me, on the other side, I had a father that I knew loved me, although he wasn't physically there the time and he didn't provide like a father or anything, but David or Walker let me know that I was love. So it allowed me to know and have so much grace for you because it wasn't about me. I knew that you acting out or, you know, just it was hard, right? I knew that the dysfunction that was coming from that, it wasn't my fault. It was a lot of what you thought and a lot of your experiences. So obviously loving God and submitting to the scripture, recognizing that I have to pray you into knowing that you're loved by God.
SPEAKER_00So let me say this. So, like um, when you're abused or like an abused child or someone that has suffered experiment abuse and trauma physically, emotionally, spiritually, then the for me personally, then every argument seemed like a lack of acceptance. It seemed like the experience and the perception of it was rejection that it's over, uh experience and feel tremendous guilt and shame, distance from God, as if I wasn't loved. So it really kind of would take because until your wounds are healed, it's like opening them up. Yes, obviously, I needed healing from the Lord. Either I wasn't seeking, pursuing, or it just hadn't transpired yet. And so to get into conflict, um, and you talked about communication, it would feel as if if this wasn't right, then this felt like it wasn't right, and like I wasn't right. And I would I would question my salvation, even in the arguments, because I felt so much guilt and shame and condemnation behind the arguments, my behavior, right, my character, what I brought to it, what I was receiving from you. In many ways, I believe it kind of hindered. So that was like the struggle of how do I see myself in Christ when obviously I'm failing here because arguments are sin. And Jesus talks about how arguments are like murder, and so we're murdering each other. It might not be profanities or whatever, but we're murdering each other with the words of our mouth, we're in disunity, we're in discord, and it doesn't feel like God, and it doesn't feel like I'm saved, and it doesn't feel like a lot of things. And what I wanted to say was this, and I know you might want to say something, is that so when you're like kind of an abused person, you try to read the room, you base everything off how's this atmosphere feel right now? Is this a threat or am I safe? And so when we would argue, I would feel tremendous threat to my person, you know, and so maybe it would even have me act out even more from a defensive nature.
SPEAKER_01And so, you know, one, I forgive me, you know, but that was that was it because communication is the bridge to connection, and you don't have that speaking over each other and arguing over each other, and obviously you didn't get a wife who's very like soft and soft in my tone, and I have decorum, but you didn't get someone either that's on the other side of the spectrum, indignant and a strong personality, and because of your defensiveness, I was never able to kind of relax into, right? As the wife that would be like the scripture says you can't win your husband.
SPEAKER_00No, I got the warrior king.
SPEAKER_01So, and this is something that I think most marriages, especially early on, and maybe even for years or decades, they don't realize is that in those moments, you God has given you an opportunity to see the area of your ways, the things that are wrong in your walk and that are not Christ-like. So for me, for 10 years, we would argue I would stand up because I was ready. I wasn't flight, I was fight. And you were the same way, but you know, in the that dynamic, I'm saying that to say that even just in my culture amongst, you know, uh black women, a part of us feels like we have to be physically strong, mentally strong, emotionally strong, and all of this strength when the truth is is that position always turns a man off, a husband off. It always makes him feel like they're dealing with somebody masculine, dealing with somebody that's ready to fight. After 10 years, the Lord told me, sit down when you, even if you argue to sit down. I'm saying that to say that as women, I used to think that I could reason with you. I think I used to think like grind, don't you see that this is how this is happening? Don't you see that I wasn't, I was just sitting there as if I could reason. If your mind was already hijacked, if you were already moding and feeling something behind what was taking place, my words weren't gonna wing you. So yeah, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00The Bible says be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, which is great. But you have to wait until you are in a a place where you can be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger. So many times in those arguments, yeah, that the scripture is true, but I can't fulfill the word of God right now because I I can't be in your flesh, yes.
SPEAKER_01I and you But I don't think that most Christians, maybe some recognize it. I don't know if they got the real revelation. I know that later on, it took years for me to get the revelation that if you were in your flesh, no matter what kind of, no matter what amount of common sense I was gonna make, you weren't buying it.
SPEAKER_00First of all, the way the common sense would be coming would be loud and not gentle and and uh arguments and contention for either one of us, if we're using the scripture, let's just use if you say to me, Well, the word says you're supposed to be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, that's like saying calm down to somebody. Right, you know, it's just like, are you for real right now? Like when you're in the argument, you don't have the right to utilize scripture if you're not 100% following it too. And then ultimately we're supposed to forgive one another even as Christ has forgiven us, and that the same measure is supposed to be measured out, and that um if we have a complaint against one another, forgive. Okay, how do you do that when, like you said, you're in your flesh? Because now the flesh is in enmity with God, it's not subject to the law of God, and neither can it be. So you're trying to come with some kind of scripture, it's not gonna work. That's why you have to have the quietness, the gentleness. And I want to say this is that marriage is a partnership. You submit to one another in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Okay, the husband bears this responsibility to die to himself or his wife, and the wife bears a responsibility to respect and honor her husband. It is very hard in the midst of an argument for the husband to die to himself and the wife to demonstrate honor and respect. That's why you have to wait for those moments when you can kind of take a timeout or a si la or whatever and then come back. You have to realize that you're you're you're the communication in an argument is not going to be the same in a quiet moment of reconciliation. Right.
SPEAKER_01What season of parenting stretched us the most emotionally or spiritually? I just want to say that I have Alexis, my firstborn, and then we have three children together. It would be raising Alexis because of a blended family, and Alexis going through her own identity crisis, you know, having a biological father who's black, who wasn't in her life, all of a sudden, in less than three months, she has a Jewish father. Just the whole identity crisis that lasted for seven years in our marriage. And it was the root of almost all arguments, just you know, for the first seven years. More than finances. Yes, more than finances. And I'm gonna say that raising Alexis, now looking back, and we we discovered this, made it 10 years into our marriage. We didn't necessarily take the right approach with your background, with what you suffered, the rejection and all the things that you encountered in your adulthood and childhood with your father. And I didn't have this knowledge or awareness that uh we needed to approach Alexis in a way where we were raising her up to realize that this is a new family, and that, you know, there were going to be dynamics that were gonna be changed, and yet you and I struggle because we didn't have the information. So part of what I say today is that people need to, before you just dive in, you need to be informed. You need to study on blended families, how to approach children, how to raise, you know, whether it's a girl or a boy, or both of them in a blended family where no one feels like the third wheel. No one feels like, you know, they're struggling.
SPEAKER_00The children don't feel like it's a difficult situation because when it's a blended family and you have, you know, previous responsibilities, you have children, you have whatever you have that you're bringing, it's difficult. This is why you have to have those conversations, you have to really know how you're gonna parent and especially how you're gonna discipline, because generally the parent that is the biological parent of the child may feel a level of protection. Yes. But I want to say this is that as it relates to Alexis, Alexis and I had a really great relationship when we first met. But then your mom came along and sowed seeds into her that, you know, Brian can't be your father, he's not black, and this and that. These were seeds that got into the fertile soil of Alexis' heart and caused a high level of rebellion. Again, for me, I wasn't mature enough to know how to navigate through that, cast it out, pray, and walk in love. So all of her rebellion, I took it personally, it affected me and it affected us, and it affected our relationship for a long time. She went through her own challenges that were beyond just parenting, affected her life. The foundation wasn't there. And because you and I didn't really take the time to pray it through to seek God for wisdom and his way of doing things. Now, the Holy Spirit is the spirit of adoption. So the family becoming one unit, that's what God wants. I mean, he brought the Israelites out as a mixed multitude, so it's not about everybody having the same ethnicity. God is a God of restoration, and this could have been a tremendous time of restoration for her to have a father that was going to be active and per participate in her life. Right. And it actually caused a wedge because somebody else of what somebody else said, the words that we speak, they're life and death. Yes, they're blessing and cursing. And so somebody spoke death, and we didn't know enough how to break that. Right. That's another thing, is that when you come into a marriage, you want to break generational curses off your life. I'll just say this is that that was one season in raising children. I would say my most favorite time in raising children was they were all kind of elementary school age, you know. But another difficult time was when we lost everything. Trevor, our oldest son, had to kind of emerge as the breadwinner. That's how God allowed it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00When I was just basically in a place of complete financial ruin, most discouraged, hating myself. I didn't know how to parent in that season because I, as a man, I looked at myself as a you're a provider and a protector, and you're you're not able to do any of this. And then your son has to come along and take care of you in an age where you're not, you know, an old man that needs to go live with you. You know, so it was this is different. This is there, like yes, he had to leave college and went into an industry that he became very successful. God bless me, though. Everything that he put into this family, I was in a position to bless him financially with whole, I believe, more than what he placed into us. And that meant something to me because I never wanted my son to carry me. I wanted to carry him. Yes, but it was so that was hard, and I didn't know how to. And I would just say this, even to this day, the difficulty is this, and I you don't know this, but yesterday I sent all four of them a text to Hari and Trexton and Trevor and Alexis, a text that just said, Look, uh, if you ever need someone to talk to or things get hard, or you want a listening ear or someone to pray for you, I'm here for you. The reason why I'm bringing that up is that Trevor will go to you. And most of our kids will. And I think that that's what children do. They go to the mother first, fill her out, use the mother against the dad to get the finances. But like I'm just saying, with Trevor, it made me feel like I wasn't really able to be the father that I wanted to be and still want to be, which is for him to trust me to speak into his life the wisdom that I have received from Christ after being married for 30 years. So, like if he has a marital challenge, I would love for him to come to me versus you. Right. And I feel like that season did kind of breach that trust that he felt like he couldn't trust his father because I wasn't successful in that season.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I believe that you know, Trevor can look to you and know that you'll be there for him. Like, I don't think that he has any doubt that you're there for him and supportive. You guys have similar personalities and approach certain things mentally the same way, whereas different, and so it may it may stem from that.
SPEAKER_00So I've laughed now because we play chess on the song. Yes, and like his moves and my moves are so similar. Like we think a lot alive. That's amazing. Yeah, so it's like playing against myself.
SPEAKER_01How have friendships affected our marriage positively or negatively over the years?
SPEAKER_00Who I've pretty much, to be honest with you, blown up just about every friendship I've ever had.
SPEAKER_01Except for these last few years. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so right now I have what I would call some good friends in my life. I still don't necessarily go to them and share my complete heart. I mean, I recently did in a men's group, I was asked to kind of give my testimony and share my heart, and my friends didn't know that, and my friends are in that group and they did not know all the things that had transpired in my life and hopefully it blessed them. But I would say, don't do this because I wouldn't tell you. Amen. I used to find, like, if I had a male friend, I would go and basically throw up on them everything that was going on in my marriage. I would seek out the friend before I would seek God. I was just like hit them, you know, in all hours of the day and night. I mean, I had so many different friends that I would, you know, go through the person until they couldn't take it anymore. That friendship would end, find somebody else. And so what I'm just saying is like this took place for like the first 20 years of our marriage. I mean, meaning, and that's a long time to be in this place. May not been 20, maybe 15, but it was around like it was a long time of just going and going and going. I should have never uncovered you like that to other people because what happens is they bite the bait of a fence, they hear all of this, they hear the one-sidedness, they hear all of your emotion and everything else, and they may try to counsel some tried to counsel godly, some other counsel was crazy. It just wasn't. I should have been seeking God. The wisdom was to seek God first and all of his righteousness, and then you want to bless marriage, it's gonna be added unto you. Like, you know, you think you need uh food and drink and water, and yes, but you need peace too. Peace, peace that passes all understanding. You're not gonna get peace by just sharing all this, and they're not gonna be the ones to facilitate reconciliation unless it is like a Christian counselor that you're seeing, and then they're gonna hopefully give you the stats. So, what I'm saying is this is that friendships affected my marriage in a negative way because I was only utilizing the friendships to dump.
SPEAKER_01Right. Well, that's true. I tried to warn you. I think also that one thing that I've tried to establish, and I think I think most couples do, but was to make sure that it was a couple's friendship. Had a few single friends, ladies, periods of decades as friends, and those those seem to have been fine as it relates to our marriage. But then outside of that, I've always felt that a marriage needs a couple to, you know, a male friend that you could connect with, the woman that I could connect with, so that we have this mutual understanding, we have this togetherness, like going out, hanging out.
SPEAKER_00That's if it's friends. Like I'll say this is that I did have a one single pastor, male friend, who probably his counsel to me was the best than any other, but it was because he was Christian and it was through a pastoral's lens. And so he kind of understood the dynamics of marriage, maybe because he had counseled a lot of marriages.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. So I mean, I do encourage that, you know, and we have new friends that, you know, at this stage in our lives that we feel like, you know what, we we're not looking for somebody we're gonna be friends with 30 or 40 years. It's just we're enjoying life and the relationships. Just you and I, yeah, just you and I with other couples that we can connect with, that we can have those moments where we want to go and hang out with other people. So, what have we learned about protecting our marriage while still maintaining healthy relationships with others? Of course, being vulnerable and being able to share with other couples. I think being real is what's most important. I think at this stage in your 50s, like, I mean, I I don't know, but for me, my lifetime as a Christian, I don't want to be pretentious, I don't want to be phony, I don't want to be trying to keep up with the Joneses or anything like that, because then you start, then you start bringing in other issues into your life and miss as a husband.
SPEAKER_00My role is to cover and protect you, and your role is to honor and and and and help strengthen the activity. Yes, yeah, stand on the wall. So when I would speak to other people, I am uncovering and unprotecting you, and these people are just sitting there being like, ooh, ooh, ooh, you know, and just hearing it all. They're not being transparent, right? They're not sharing their issues, they protect in everything, right? And it only becomes gossip at that point, and gossip is a sin. And a tail bearer, the Bible says, separates the best of friends, and your spouse is supposed to be your best friend. Like I was just thanking God today for you being my best earthly friend. Thank you. Yes.
SPEAKER_01What wisdom would we give couples after navigating extended family dynamics? Of course, being Jewish, you were rejected by your family initially, your grandmother, your grandfather, and your dad, and your mother's no longer with us.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And your grandmother came over on the other side, and there's times maybe not like ours, because you have a different culture, your dad being Jewish and everything, but he rejected our entire family. And so my advice is to I still pray for him after 30 years. I'm still praying for this man to come to know Jesus because wow, God has blessed you with an amazing son, amazing grandchildren, and a daughter-in-law that you could have in your life, and then of course sharing the gospel of you.
SPEAKER_00And then Trevor's married now, meaning like he could, he's got grandchildren that he's never had a relationship with. He's got a granddaughter-in-law.
SPEAKER_01So I would just say as it relates to navigating through that, that prayer is the key, that continuing to love, continuing to honor.
SPEAKER_00Well, one thing I would say is this is that sometimes when you have people who are divisive, the scripture says separate yourself from a divisive person. So I'm gonna say this. This may not be popular, but you have to protect the marriage and the family that you're entrusted with at all costs. The number one thing was your mom. You know, we had to separate from her. Mark, my dad, separate from him. The people that are detrimental, that are not going to empower and edify the family, and that they are there not to build up, but they tear down, they separate, they uproot, they're challenging to the marriage. Like if you have a mother-in-law that is completely speaking negativity into the marriage, divide or a father-in-law who rejects your spouse, then you have to make decisions, have biblical boundaries, and set those boundaries and make sure, like our children really didn't grow up with grandparents. They may know their great grandmother, but still from a distance, but they know her love eventually and how she was there for this family. But I'm just gonna Say, look, if you have in-laws, siblings, or anyone, anyone outside of your family nucleus that is causing separation, division, contention, strife, discord, and bringing and tearing you down when you know it's a God ordained thing, yeah, you gotta get them out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have to. You have to remove I'm not saying they can't speak. No, but you can pray, you know, you can intercede, you can pray for them, but the most important thing is that you stand on the wall, stand on your watch, be watchful.
SPEAKER_00Like And no relationship is more important than the marriage relationship, not your relationship with your parents, that's right, or your children, or your siblings. This comes first, and this has caused to have issue of well, this is my daughter, or this is my sister, or this is my son, or whatever. No, this is the only true covenant covenant. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the only true covenant. You have to protect your marriage. God honors that even when there's friction, you know, even when there are challenges within the marriage. I would dare to say that that's the time that the enemy is gonna come in and use someone's voice, like the snake, to say, to speak division, to get you to separate from your husband, get you to separate from your wife. Because why? If you're weak at that moment, they believe they can sow seeds into that and cause a divorce or cause, you know, the man's the enemy.
SPEAKER_00The enemy sows seeds, he sows tears. He, while men slept, the enemy sowed tears, he tries to get in there to cause division. That's like his weapon of choice. That's right.
SPEAKER_01How did suffering refine us individually and as a couple? The refinement, the fiery fire, the refinement for me, you know, I believe is Psalm 42, deep calls unto the, you know, at the noise of your waterfalls, you know, as your waves and billows have gone over me, that the fiery trial definitely pushed me. I was already close to the Father. I was already close to Allah, but I was already a prayer warrior, always already someone who spent time in prayer and worship. But when this trial came and it challenged my faith because we had stepped out in faith and moved into this 11,000 square foot home and the garage. And I believed that it was my forever home. And I believed God had given it to me, like Isaac, you know. Now it looks that and appears that that this thing is about to fall apart. It pressed me into God more. You know, I went from an hour to three to four, six hours in prayer and crying out and staying in the word. It caused me to go to prayer, to stay in his word and to speak faith. So, you know, for me, the refining was like the fire was turned out to make me even closer to God, to draw me even closer into his presence. As a couple, in the beginning, that fire was separating us. In the beginning, that fire was like doing damage. You know, you were sleeping downstairs. I spent four months sleeping in a room upstairs.
SPEAKER_00And the tension don't have conjugal visits. That's thank you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I was obedient. Bless God. Even when I didn't want to be, I was obedient and I walked in humility because I didn't want to give the enemy place. See, when you really are a warrior, you don't want to give the devil any room. You don't want to give him any opportune to come into your life and destroy or to bring more havoc to your life than what you're already going through. And when you're in a fire, in a trial that is a great trial of your faith, of your life, of your family, if you're not careful, you can let the enemy in. And God didn't even ordain that or assign that for your life, but it was because we weren't watching. And I just wanted to finish with this is as a couple, like I said in the beginning, the fiery trial was definitely separating us, you know. But as we were coming through, I believe that God started building your faith because you start seeing the hand of God in the midst of the fire. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Um, so we got stronger. Yes. I mean, um, it wasn't a complete restoration, but he did it gradually. And it was over the process of time, and we just kind of settled into our moment. Jeremiah talks about God says, I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans of a future, hope, and expect it in that my will for you is good and not evil. That's at the beginning stages of their captivity, and it took 70 years of progressiveness, and they were they became a part of the the Babylonian community, I don't know, culture, community, and everything until they were finally fully delivered out of it. But let me just say this is that when Job says, Though you slay me, yet will I trust you, that is ultimately the experience of the suffering. You're killing me, but you're refining me at the same time. He said, I know my redeemer lives. He says, All the days of my hard service, I'll wait till my change comes. But the other one about that when you have tried me, yes, I shall come out as pure gold. It's a trial, you are being tried, but it's not to kill you, it's to get you to a place where you come out like pure gold. It's to remove all the layers of filth and impurity and certain things from your heart so that when you come into what God ultimately has for you, you are now at a place where if the enemy comes in like a flood, there is a standard that God raises up in you. Let me just say it like this that the suffering, and I I said it in prayer today because I'm going through something, but this time it's not happening to me. I'm the aggressor. I am like uh Joshua and Caleb and what I'm doing. I am saying I'm well able to possess, or I'm like David. Should I pursue, overtake, and will I recover all? And God saying, Yes, pursue, overtake, and without failure, recover all. I realize that even when the finances are there and things turn around from a financial standpoint, there is always going to be adversity that I don't care how wealthy you are, then the adversity becomes this. It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. There are always going to be things that tempt you, try you, suffering, adversity. Yes, we went through a great season of adversity. I still like can experience something now, and it translates me back to that pain. But I believe that God uses that pain so that you can see that he's greater than that pain in the sense of this. Paul had a thorn in his side.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_00But he said to the the Lord said, My grace is sufficient. And so this is where in the trial you have to learn to hold on to I feel like the mood. He gotta hold on to God's unchanging hands. Yes. Wait, he helped really he helped Daniel get out of liar's day. Yes, this is some wisdom for some people. He helped Joshua fight the battle at Jericho. Yes, and you know what? Yes, he helped Gilligan get off the island.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you know, the scripture does say that uh many are the afflictions of the righteous, yeah, but God shall deliver them out of them all. Thank you, Jesus. And so that's what we have to remember that the trials are not for us to stay in, it's for God to deliver us out of them. So when we go into a trial, we don't have to have the mentality that this is never gonna end. It's like you said, Job, you know, so many amazing verses, you know, where he says, though he tried me, you know, I will come forth as pure gold, you know, all the days of my hard service. I will wait until my change comes. It's God that delivers us out of it's us who determines really how long we stay in it by, you know, to a certain degree, by our attitude, by what we've gained, what we've learned, have can God now see Himself in us? You know, are we being transformed into the image of Christ? And so I mean, thank you for sharing that. That's powerful. What has this new season of being empty nesters revealed about us?
SPEAKER_00That we really are best friends. We still sit down and have dinner with one another. I always ask you what's for dinner, and Tara's an amazing cook, and I don't have to get into that, but too seven 30 years of just gourmet Michelin starring that we are connected, that our children are not the reason for this marriage, that we are still there to, while we we don't necessarily control their lives, we're there to kind of counsel them. But for us, we are still talking about what God has for us. Like you're doing this podcast, you're writing the book, you're doing certain things, I still write you letters. It's a wonderful time in our lives because I think that we are able to just be with each other. Like it's amazing, and thank God that He's given us some level of longevity and this youthfulness so that we can still kind of enjoy each other from that standpoint.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, I was gonna share that we mentioned this in our conversations just about how long we've been married, and we're like look at each other and we're like, oh my God, 30 years. I've been able to discern that when people say 30 years or the length of time they've been married and they're in it's been a long time, those are people that are not really, I don't want to use the word happy, but pleasantly surprised about their lives together. Whereas when you hear someone say, We can't believe like how fast the time has flown in our marriage, you we sometimes say maybe 15, 16 years, but not 30 years.
SPEAKER_00We do everything. Everything together. That's the first thing. And we had been we did that our entire marriage. So our children, we are okay and understand that they have to progress in their lives and that they have lives. I mean, we still go marketing together, we do date night every week, you know, three nights a week.
SPEAKER_01We do so they're they're gone and to a certain degree, but we don't feel like we've been doing life forever. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it doesn't seem like 30 years.
SPEAKER_00No, I definitely miss that being in the house, but I also understand that this is a part of life, and so it's bittersweet when they're home and then they leave. I feel the pain of them leaving again, but it doesn't um uh make me feel like, well, like it's just us now. Yeah, like what am I gonna do?
SPEAKER_01We have a great time, we have great, a great time together, but we have great communication with one another, you know, even though our children are gone. Like we're not feeling like the empty, the house is empty.
SPEAKER_00And we don't feel this. We recently saw a movie, but I'd say it like this. I don't feel like I'd have to discover the real me now. Like I I gotta somehow, you know, it's just Terrani, and I I gotta find my true self. You know, I gotta go out there and have a midlife crisis.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and for myself, you know, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, always will be. That's never gonna end. There's a new branching out and a new, not necessarily finding myself, but doing new things that challenge me to be better and to, you know, do things for God in this new season.
SPEAKER_00I'm a little because of like my personality. So, like, this is what I would say is that you can have deliverance, but there still might be a little bit of a residue. Like, I have a men's meeting, I told you it's only once a month, and I'm always challenged to go because I I'm an isolated person. Like, I I don't ever want to get hurt. So, like part of my first uh defense mechanism is to to kind of withdraw. And then the other thing is like I'm challenged with what I think the people think which you shouldn't be.
SPEAKER_01I don't mind going out, meeting new people, doing new stuff.
SPEAKER_00So terrorism, that's what I'm saying. This kind of do thing. Yes, like with what I'm doing now, like all the legal battles I'm doing and fighting, I'm fighting the OAG and I'm fighting the TDI and TMB and the Texas State Bar and all these kinds of stuff. But it's just a one-man wrecking crew, you know. I could do that. But the thing is, this is that we still complement each other really well, and we support each other in what we do. And that's one thing that I would say like, how do you make it work? You put Christ first and then you care about each other, each other's interests. Yeah, be a like listen, care. I do, I listen to all this stuff.
SPEAKER_01How do you think this is all happening? What does flourishing in marriage actually look like after nearly 30 years together? And what would you say to younger couples who want not just to survive marriage but truly want to thrive in it? When you want to thrive in your marriage and not survive, you have to be willing to put in the work. You have to be willing to be the first one to forgive, you have to be willing to be the first one to serve, you have to be so willing to fight to show how much you love your spouse that you win your spouse every time. You're going to fight, you're going to argue. But now you, if you flip the script and you decide to fight for your marriage, fight for the right communication. And when I say fight, I'm not speaking with words. I'm talking about your posture, the heart, your heart's posture, and how you want to see your husband the way God sees him. You want to see your marriage the way God sees it. You don't want to listen to the world and hear what the world has to say. Like you said, we saw that movie and it was despicable because it was saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just you have to be willing to fight for your marriage with your heart posture that you want so much what God desires for your marriage that you lay it all down. That's how I believe that I've been successful to see our marriage come this far, is because I knew that I could pray one specific prayer and God would honor it. And that was, I want the marriage that you have for me. Amen. And God has honored that.
SPEAKER_00And that's flourishing. I want to articulate this in the best way I can. In order to flourish, you have to be on the same page. You have to be in a place where divorce is not an option. You have to be on the same page in your faith, meaning that you are daily seeking God. You are daily, you have your own personal, individual prayer life. You do read your Bible, you do grow. You are not growing in God, your marriage is going to fail. That's right. I'm not saying that's like some marriages can't stick together, but there is a reason why marriages in the church 50% or more. 51. 51%. So like now the enemy is like, uh got that extra 1%, is that because they are not growing in God. If you are not growing in God, you're not growing in the word, you're not growing in your identity, yes. And if you're not being transformed in the renewing of your mind, which is the scripture that we stood on for our marriage, then you are not going to see God's good, acceptable, and perfect will in your life. The other thing is this is that you have to be on the same page. You have to, you have to have the same values. Right. If you don't have the same values, it's going to be very hard for you to go in the same direction. Can two walk together unless they be agreed? If there is not agreement, what is that?
SPEAKER_01I do, I really do, because there's going to be some marriages that are going to hear wives or husbands are going to say, We're not, we don't have the same values. But I want to tell them that the power of God is made available for the believer to begin to pray for their spouse in those specific areas because God says it's not his will.
SPEAKER_00It is impossible for you to be one and not have the same values. Right. If you don't have the same, and I don't even know if there's a stronger word than values, but if you moral standard, it's more than that. It's how you approach life. If you don't approach life, yes, God's word is the ultimate authority. Yeah. It has to be the ultimate authority, regardless of ethnicity, race, social, economic, politics, all of that. There has to be a level of unity. The two have to be one. If you don't have one in how you approach God and how you approach each other, and how you approach this broken, fallen, polluted, contaminated world, your marriage is going to suffer.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I and I'm saying that yes, that is true. And the answer to getting over that, in the answer and to coming into unity, you're talking about righteousness, which is right standing with God. It's very hard to build a thriving marriage when one person is not walking in righteousness and the other one is.
SPEAKER_00That God puts a new spirit in you.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00And so through the spirit of the Lord, the two become one. They're joined together. And so if you are not joined, if you are not solidified, if this is not like concrete, you know, in the way that you approach life, then the enemy can get a toll and you won't flourish. But the scripture says, He who is planted in the house of our Lord shall flourish in the courts of our God. That planting, we are the church, we are the called-out ones. It's not a physical location. If you want to flourish in your marriage, you have to be planted in the things of God. I would say even have a local church and be doing things that advance the kingdom of God. But don't just look outward. Advance, do your best to advance the kingdom of God within the marriage.
SPEAKER_01So, but we want to thank you for allowing us to share our lives with you. And we do pray that you have been encouraged and just heard some things that inspire you and give you the wisdom on how to live and move within your marriage. Again, um, this is Wisdom for Wives Shaping Women and Truth for Every Generation. You can follow me on or follow Wisdom for Wives Official on Instagram, Wisdom for Wives on TikTok, Facebook, and I'm flinging.
SPEAKER_00If you have any negative comments to say, just write Tara at Tara at wisdomforwives.com. Don't send me in. Yes, yes. I'm not gonna answer you. If you have any bless her calm you down, get you to get off the ledge.
SPEAKER_01See why I can't do this with him. So but thank you and God bless. And that again is email is tara at wisdomforwives.com. Thank you. And thank you for being here. Love you. God bless.