Manifestations of Trauma

In this episode we discuss some subtle signs/symptoms that may indicate wounds left by trauma.

1. Behavioral cues
2. Addictions/Substance Use
3. Anxiety
4. Depression
5. Chronic pain
6. Post-traumatic stress

If you feel triggered by any information in this podcast, or if you feel led to start your own therapeutic healing journey, please visit psychologytoday.com to find a mental health therapist in your area.

If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call 911 or 988 for support. You can also visit 988lifeline.org for more resources, and information.

Remember.....YOU MATTER!

To schedule a discovery session with Sherri, please go to Elevatetoabundantlife.com. 

The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Divine and Most Unlikely. You're spending some time with us, Nathan and Sherry. Today we're recording on June 7th, and we want to take a moment to acknowledge something that happened yesterday, commemorating D Day. I want to share just a little bit about that with you. Sherry and I are both very patriotic. We love this country and we recognize that this country doesn't exist just on its own two legs. It takes really courageous men and women to build and maintain what we have. So I'm going to start by reading a message that General Eisenhower wrote to the men that were about to participate in D-Day shortly before the event. Soldiers, sailors, and airmen of the Allied Expeditionary Force, you are about to embark upon the great crusade toward which we have striven these many months. The eyes of the world are upon you. The hopes and prayers of liberty-loving people everywhere march with you. In company with our brave allies and brothers in arms on other fronts, you will bring about the destruction of the German war machine, the elimination of Nazi tyranny over the oppressed peoples of Europe, and security for ourselves in a free world. Your task will not be an easy one. Your enemy is well trained, well equipped, and battle-hardened. He will fight savagely. But this is the year 1944. Much has happened since the Nazi triumphs of 1940 and 41. The United Nations have inflicted upon the Germans great defeats in open battle, man to man. Our air offensive has seriously reduced their strength in the air and their capacity to wage war on the ground. Our home fronts have given us an overwhelming superiority in weapons and munitions of war, and place them at our disposal great reserves of trained fighting men. The tide has turned. The free men of the world are marching together to victory. I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty, and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full victory. Good luck, and let us beseech the blessing of the Almighty God upon this great and noble undertaking. And that was from General Dwight David Eisenhower. On D-Day, men from across this nation, every corner of this nation, from Washington State, from Florida, from California, and from Maine, from all walks of life, farmers, bankers, teachers, they came together to serve this cause, and many of them did not know that they were going to be participating in D-Day. As a matter of fact, there was a great deal of effort put forth to keep that invasion secret. Nevertheless, these men from different walks of life, from different cultures, from different jobs, from different backgrounds came together and got to know each other and trained hard as one to be able to fight the forces of tyranny in Europe. What united these men not only was that before everything else, they were all Americans, also was a conviction that is deeply seated in our American DNA and blood, that no man has the right to rule over another without the consent of that first man, and that we would not stand for the tyranny that was being perpetrated against the people of Europe and the extermination of a people. And on D-Day, when the weather cleared, these men came from the sea and from the air, and they began a great fight against significant odds to free a people from oppression and to ensure that Nazi tyranny would not be the rule in Europe or in this nation. We recognize that our nation would not exist without men like them, nor would it exist without the women who did their part as well, women who became women air service pilots, women who built planes and bullets and bombs and tanks, women who sacrificed not only their fathers and their brothers and their husbands, but who also participated in a national state of rationing. Our rubber, our sugar, our milk, our eggs all rationed. We as a nation shared a sacrifice for a common good that was greater than ourselves. And we recognize not only would this nation not exist without courageous men and women like those, but that this nation and we owe a debt of gratitude which can never be repaid. So to those men and women who participated in or supported the efforts of D-Day, while this is woefully inadequate, and the debt we owe you is ineffable, inestimable, inestimable, incalculable, we say thank you, because without you, we wouldn't be here.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Absolutely, Nathan. That was beautiful. Thank you for reading that. Very powerful. I we talk about these things quite often, and our society today has forgotten the price that was paid for our country, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And and and it's something that we need to continue to pay.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Absolutely. Yep, yep. So that's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Okay, we uh you and I were kind of discussing what we wanted to address today. And one of the things that we thought we'd like to talk about is the manifestations of trauma. And the reason we wanted to do that is really to help people be able to understand themselves a bit better and maybe others, and then help give them some information with which to make an informed decision about how they might want to proceed forward and begin to resolve, you know, some of those things.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

So you you I know we've covered this before, but you spent 25 years as a trauma therapist. You are you have transitioned out of being a licensed therapist and are now an abundant life coach.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

And in your career, you have seen and helped, I don't even know how many thousands of clients.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Yeah, quite a I don't know how many thousands either, but quite a few people in those 25 years, but just a little correction. I was a therapist for 25 years and specialized in trauma for about eight of those years. So yeah. Didn't focus on trauma all of my career. Had I done that, had I known to have done that, I don't think trauma became, you know, treating trauma didn't become popular until early two, early 2000s, which is right around when I graduated.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

So had I, you know, from the get-go been uh an experienced trauma therapist, I would have understood myself a lot better.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah, right? Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I wanted to ask is about the ways trauma can manifest itself. There's there's different ways. You have much more expertise in this than I do, but there's many ways. And so some of the ways that I think about are there's cognitive, physical, behavioral, emotional. Um, but can you can you talk us through some of those? What hit what does not only your training but your experience share with you about some of the ways trauma might manifest itself?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yeah, I've definitely seen it manifest in a multitude of ways. Um, one that kind of popped into my mind that I haven't thought about, you know, really recently is with dissociative identity disorder. And I didn't work with those clients with that diagnosis because in my mind that's a whole different level of specialty. I do have a colleague or a colleague that specializes in that, but that it that used to be called multiple personality disorder. And that is uh one of the most severe ways trauma can manifest, is when the trauma is so deep that they have to create internal extra personalities to help them live and survive what they experienced. And we talk about parts of self a lot, like little boy part, little girl part, adolescent part, young adult part. We talk about that a lot, you and I. That's not the same. This is full-blown other multiple personalities. I did have one client one time that I worked with that I had to refer out because they just needed way more than I could give them. And they were attached to a bunch of services, rightfully so, right? They needed a lot of different services, they had a case manager and a lot of different things. Um, but I had to refer them out because they needed more than what I could provide for them as an outpatient therapist. Um, but that person, um, you know, they had they had a home, they had homicidal um personalities, they had baby personalities, they had a grandmother personality. So they had both male and female personalities, right? And that was really when you when you sit down and think about that, that is so they can protect themselves. Dang. Right? Because what they've experienced was so emotionally overwhelming. That's the length that they had to go to. And I I just really even want to normalize that. It doesn't mean they're crazy, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean they're weird, it doesn't really mean anything. It just means that their trauma was so high level, that's what their brain needed to do to protect them. And we talked a couple of episodes ago about me having uh amnesia around my childhood. I just don't remember much. That's your brain's way. I think that's a God-given gift, honestly, of your brain's way to protect you, and as is dissociative identity disorder. In in your experience, um so whether experience or education, but those individuals who have dissociative identity disorder, are they themselves capable of recognizing that in themselves, or does it take an external no, they usually can't recognize that, and most like general therapists don't recognize that. My friend that does specialize in working with them tells me I've heard many stories of therapists doing more harm because a lot of therapists don't recognize that that's what happened that's what's happening. They will have time losses, like in between when a different part of them shows up, a different personality shows up, they'll have time losses. Like they'll be who, you know, their their current adult self, and then they'll have a time lapse of a couple of hours, and maybe they find receipts or for something they bought, or they'll maybe have you know leftover food in their refrigerator, and they'll be like, when I didn't get that, where did that come from? Kind of stuff like that. So, no, many times they don't. I I would imagine sometimes they do. Again, I'm not expert enough to know, to know all about that, but um, yeah, many times there's a lot of time lapses. Okay, and so they might have a sense like what is going on, right? Yeah, um, yeah, and so that leads to that leads me to think about another um behavioral and maybe physical is dissociation.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Okay, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Just dissociating away from your symptoms, away from the problems in your life. And that's just like your mind choosing not to focus on certain aspects of things again because it's just too hard to look at, too scary to look at, too painful to look at. Um, yeah, I've had a lot of clients with levels, high levels of dissociation. Something that I used to do in session, I would measure. There's an assessment called DES2, and there's another one, I believe it's called mid. Um, assess for levels of dissociation, and when they had high levels of dissociation, a technique that I would do is I had some yarn. You may have seen yarn in my office, really thick yarn. And I would have them hold one end of the yarn and me hold the other, and we would just kind of pull it back and forth just to keep them in the room.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Okay, feel like physically present with what was going on and connect, okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yep, yep. Just so I could monitor because they wouldn't always be able to tell me, like, hey, I'm not in the room right now. You and you can kind of observe when people do come in and out of the room, but I needed to, you know, I needed to find a way. I used to also toss a ball back and forth sometimes, but that's a little more distracting when you're trying to have a conversation. Um, so those are some of the ways that I tried to help people in that moment in the session stay in the room. So dissession can be dissession, dissociation can be a really common symptom for people who've had trauma. So if you have, if you find um, you know, that you kind of check out sometimes, like I've had me myself, I was driving somewhere one day, I don't know where I was going, and I don't know how long I was driving, but I looked up whenever I came back into my body and was like, I don't know where I'm at.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

That happened to me one time many, many years ago, and I think that's when I first realized I had dissociation. Um, but it shows up differently for different people, but it can certainly happen um in different ways for different people, and there's a level of dissociation that we all do. Like when you go to work every day, you're probably not thinking, oh, I gotta turn right here and left here and go straight there. You're just like maybe sometimes you're driving, you're maybe listening to a podcast or a song or something, and you're like, Oh, I don't remember getting off the freeway. I don't remember. And that's a that's a level of dissociation that we all have because we're you know going down a common a common path that we know really well. So different levels of dissociation, right? So dissociation is one. Um for behavioral manifestations of trauma, any and all kinds of addictions.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Alcohol, shopping, food addictions, um excessive, like drug use, different kinds, you know, addictions in that way.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Yeah. And I think one thing with with those, one thing that you taught me that I just didn't know that was very humbling is excuse me, is that when when those when people have those addictions, and obviously on that list, you listed some that are more society, societally acceptable, shopping being one of them. Yes, and and and even alcohol to an extent, but then drugs generally being not quite as societally acceptable. But whatever their their method, they're trying to treat their own pain.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yes, always, but we we don't always know that, right? Right? Yeah, when we're engaging in some of those behaviors, we don't always know that. Yeah, um, there can be a lot of excessive anger, um, perfectionism. A lot of people deal with perfectionism and they just think, like, what is wrong with me? I'm just so tightly wound up, right? Yeah, I used to think that. Um, and I know a lot of my clients, they could they'll come in and say, I I struggle with perfection or I struggle with people pleasing, or I struggle with, I have some clients that came in with like idealistic thinking. When sadly, sadly, Nathan, when people would come in and tell me how wonderful and amazing their childhood was, I was like, okay, that's a little bit of a red flag. Yeah, like not always, yeah, um, but often it is because when we idealize our childhood, there is a little bit of a red flag. Because nobody's childhood is completely perfect, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Right?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

And I I have to work very slowly, used to have to work very slowly in those situations because you don't want to burst, you know, someone's bubble about what they experienced in their life. Yeah. Um, so those are some of the um behavioral manifestations.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

And when when we um experience a lot of distress, our prefrontal cortex shuts down.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And we can't think clearly. We can't think, oh, this is what I need to think about or do instead. So instead, we engage in survival skills.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, and and I just want to add a little bit to that because this is not a this is not a position where people are making a conscious elective choice. I'm going to, I'm going to stop using my prefrontal cortex and I'm going to use something else. It's not a decision that's made consciously. It's not even something that's done with awareness. It is a physiologic, biologic action taken without our knowledge, and it is born from survival, but you end up using this older part of your brain that is truly, really just about survival. So you're not thinking about bills. It you're like, I just I need to survive. It's survival, fight or flight.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

That yeah, and you're not thinking about the consequences of your actions either.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Right? When there's addiction present or excessive shopping present, smoking, all the things, you're not thinking about the consequences. You're not thinking about the consequences of what's happening to your body. You're not thinking about how what what your choices, how your choices are influencing your partner. If you have a partner or influencing your kids, because our choices impact other people, they impact people around us, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yes, they do.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

And uh one component that I want to add about the that transition out of the prefrontal cortex into that older part of the brain is it, it is it is difficult, but we can learn how to recognize that. And then there are physical things that we can do to detransition out of that fight-flight survival back to using our prefrontal cortex. But that involves us first becoming aware, oh, hey, this is where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

And and working back to enable that prefrontal cortex to begin doing its job again. But that that affects, you know, you mentioned a couple of things, but it affects our ability to plan. It affects our ability to use language. We don't even we can't even use language correctly. And so that's kind of important when we want to communicate to another human being.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

That's where our prefrontal cortex has problem-solving skills too, right? And the ability just to process and think through things. And so, Nathan, what you mentioned earlier reminded me of the window of tolerance, right? And guys, if you can just imagine, I don't know, how would you describe if you could paint a verbal picture of the window of tolerance?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

If I could paint a verbal picture, I would say, imagine that you're standing in your house in front of a window, and right now the window is completely closed. Let's lift that window all the way up, and there's probably a screen there, but let's win lift that window all the way up. When that window is all the way up, that entire portion of the window that is now open to that free air moving in and out of the house, that is a very wide, broad window of tolerance. And so if that's only half open, then you've got a half open of window of tolerance, and if it's only 20% open, then you got a lower window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Right. And so people, what what people don't often realize is that we even have a window of tolerance, right? Um if you're married, um, if you're married, your spouse may do some things that you know what we would call push your buttons, right? And so when your buttons get pushed, you get a little closer to either going up out of your window of tolerance, which is a hyper-aroused state where you're gonna just eventually lose it if if if people keep pushing your buttons, or if if it's not a spouse thing, if you know, whatever situation might be causing you some distress, emotional distress, you go up higher and higher until you're a little out of the window of tolerance. That's the hyper-vigilant um or hyper response. But if you go, you can also go down out of your window of tolerance, and that's more the hypo-response, more the uh freeze state, like freeze, like playing dead, like no energy, just can't tolerate anything anymore. Yeah, and what people don't realize, Nathan, is that therapy and coaching can broaden your window of tolerance.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Right? Yeah, many times people with trauma have a very narrow window of tolerance. It doesn't take much to send them over the edge of either side of their window.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

And so it's not that's not in that case, that's not them making a conscious choice as people to be intolerant.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

That is them being so overwhelmed that they don't have the additional capacity to carry anything else.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

That's right. Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

And I want to say one thing about the the spouse, because you mentioned you know, your spouse might do things that'll push them buttons. That might happen. I also want to say, though, that the spouse is also in a unique position to be able to help expand your window of tolerance by recognizing when you might. Be close to those limits and then helping facilitate an environment for you to sort of decompress.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

That's really good. Yeah. How can a spouse do that?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

How can a well, first of all, recognizing that.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yes, recognizing that.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

And the second thing that that comes to my mind is immediately take things off their plate. Doesn't really matter what that is, but they gotta do this. They got eight things on their mind. Take six of them, do them. Don't don't ask if they just just do the things. Hey, sweetie, do you wanna do you wanna sit down for a little bit? Can I can I get you a cold glass of water? Do you want a book to read? Do you want to, you know, 15 minutes. 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

And Nathan, you're as a man, you're very passionate about that, right? Do you want to say a little bit? Do you want to say a little bit about your beliefs um as a as a man in a relationship about what your responsibilities are as a man?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yeah, absolutely. So I I absolutely strongly believe that we men were were created to be protectors and providers. And I believe that most men have those seeds just sort of sewn into them. Uh being born male doesn't make you a man. It's your choices and your behaviors are what make you a man.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Um, and so a part of that, and I'm just gonna speak from my perspective because I'm a dude, but you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Wait, wait, you you're not a man, you're a dude?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

I'm both. I'm both.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

But you know, when I think about what that looks like when I was married, when I when I think what that would look like in my wife, I could absolutely tell when she was getting overwhelmed with something. And uh it it was not hard for me to spot. But once I spent, I mean, now I wasn't great at it in the beginning. I was sort of kind of finding my way in the dark, but it it took me maybe a couple of years, but then I started to recognize oh, if I offer to do these things, or if I do these things, or if I you know suggest that she might do this or that thing, that can really help her calm down. The other the other thing was that I needed to be very aware of my own behavior. So what is how fast am I speaking?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

What's the volume in my voice? What's the tone in my voice? Am I using a harsh tone where I'm trying to get stuff done? Or am I being more gentle and loving with the way that I speak? All of those things contributed to uh what she was how she you know reacted and responded. And at a certain point, I really started to realize man, as much as I wanted to look at her and go, This is you are doing this thing that I don't like. I the more that I started to really think about that, what I started to realize is all she was doing was mirroring what I was doing. And that that if I wanted to receive calm, loving, kind, compassionate energy, then I first needed to create that environment through my own behavior and my own energy. And when I did that, things changed for the better. Uh so that's yeah, that's a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah, that's awesome. And you guys weren't able to see it, but when he got when he was trying to model um kind of having a harsh tone, he had a harsh look on his face. So, so many times we don't know how much body language communicates to us. So that's another thing you want to pay attention to in yourself and with your partner, with your family, with whomever, right? You want to pay attention to body language because we don't have to say any words sometimes with our body language, like when he was, you know, acting like he was feeling harsh towards um towards his partner, he his eyes got big and he kind of gritted his teeth a little bit, and I don't even think he realized it. So I just wanted to throw that in there. And Nathan, I think that's really, really true. And I think it's same, it's the same for a female in the relationship. Oftentimes, you know that have you ever heard that phrase? If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. Right? So oftentimes women set the tone too, right? And I kind of don't I I mean that phrase is probably true. If mama ain't happy, nobody's happy, but I don't think that's the way it should be either, right? I I think if as a woman we recognize our tone, our body language, the love that we're putting out, or the anger that we're putting out, or the anxiety or fear, I mean, we can operate in any kind of emotion. So emotions can not only show up through behaviors, but through, well, I guess that's another, that's another example of how they show up behaviorally, right? Yeah. With like ex excessive expressions of of your mood, whether it's anger, bitterness, like frustration, hopelessness, helplessness, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

And I think one of the challenges that we have as people is that we like like you said, you know, there's those body language cues, those tone of voice cues, things like that. But then we react to those. And if we're reacting, generally when we react, we don't necessarily pick the best course of action, and there's a difference between the choice to react and the choice to respond.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Um, and where was I going with this? I think I just lost my train of thought. You know, come to me in a second. It's the first time you've done it, Nathan.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

I do it, I do it all the time. Okay, so you were thinking about responding versus reacting because oh, I do remember now.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

What I was gonna say is something that I have been working on probably for about the past 10 years, is this is just what I call it, but it's see beyond the behavior. So instead of taking the behavior at face value and then either reacting or responding to the behavior, I've started to try to look what's behind that, and then start to try to react or respond based on what is behind the behavior, not on the behavior itself.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

And you guys, he is really good at that. He's really, really good at that. Um, so some physical emotional symptoms of depression or depression, anxiety, all part of trauma, right? Depression, anxiety, eating disorders, those are all parts of trauma.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Some physical symptoms of those can be for sure, anxiety, as I mentioned just a few minutes ago. And that can show up as a lot of different symptoms, right? There's even some social anxiety. I've had many clients who have social anxiety and they're so fearful of interacting with people, they fear being judged, they fear being um, you know, acting in a way that's not going to be acceptable. They have a lot of fears, and so they tend not to be so socially active. Um so with anxiety, it can show up with shortness of breath, increased heart rate, sweaty palms. Sometimes that turns into a full-blown panic attack. Sometimes it doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

That feeling of fear, yeah, in like hypertension, they might have high blood pressure.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

It can definitely manifest sleeplessness, difficulty going to sleep, difficulty staying asleep.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

All the what-if thoughts, right? Do you remember the what-ifs? What if this happens, then that will happen, and then if that happens, then this thing will happen. And then if that thing happens, oh my gosh. And we can go down this this I don't know what to call it, this tunnel of just really negative thoughts and get ourselves really worked up, right? Right.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Um, so that's how anxiety can show up. Um depression can show up with an increase or decrease in appetite, helplessness, hopelessness, um, suicidal thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, and when I think of, when I think of depression, you know, I also think of things like just extreme lethargy. Like I cannot get out of bed. Yep. I cannot make myself want to. I can't make myself want to brush my teeth.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

I can't make myself want to shower. I can't make myself eat. Even though a part of me knows that I'm hungry and I need to eat, I just I can I can't. I just can't.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Right, right. And and Nathan, that leads me to think of what I've the thoughts I've had for many years for people who experience depression. I've described it as like a really heavy blanket. They're covered with a really heavy blanket and they're punching at it and they're kicking at it, and they can't quite get the blanket off of them. So it can be really hard to deal with. Yeah. Because you're in your mind, maybe even sometimes in your body, oftentimes not though, but in your mind, you do want to go brush your teeth. You do know you need to go eat, but you just feel that helplessness, hopelessness, kind of powerlessness around that, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

Yeah. Yeah. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Well, one of the things that I was gonna say about this, or maybe even just ask, but the reason that we're we're covering some of these physical manifestations is one, we want to be able to help enable people, if they're listening, right, and maybe they don't necessarily know what some of these things mean that they're feeling or they're experiencing, right? We're hoping to help shed a little light and help people be able to identify in themselves, oh, hey, I might have this or that thing going on. And there is a a Native American phrase that I love that I just it lives in my head all the time. And the phrase is a diagnosis is a curse.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

And the reason that I bring that up, and part of the reason that we're addressing this today, is to let people know that let's say that you either think you have anxiety or depression because you have identified some signs or symptoms yourself, or that you have a current diagnosis of anxiety or depression. Right. When we one of the most important things that I think we want to communicate and sherry, if you have something different to say, I definitely want to hear it. But what what I think we want to share is many people approach receiving those diagnoses or diagnoses like that as being an endpoint. Yes. Like, oh, I I have anxiety. And now for the remainder of my life, I will always have anxiety. And if I'm diagnosed with depression, then for the remainder of my life, I am going to be depressed and have depression. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Oh, Nathan, I have a lot of thoughts about that. I I would always tell clients when I was a therapist, have to remind you that I'm no longer a licensed therapist, but I'm now an abundant life coach. But when I was a therapist and I did do assessments, diagnostic assessments, and I had to diagnose because here's the catch everybody wants their insurance to pay. Well, guess what you have to do to get your insurance to pay?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Gotta have a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

You gotta have a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

And I have throughout the years, well, first let me say that is one of the things I loved about working with the military. I wasn't allowed to give a diagnosis. I was not allowed to give a diagnosis. I didn't have to write up a treatment plan. I didn't have to do all of those things. And honestly, I loved it because I got to do more of what I'm doing now with uh with the abundant life coaching. I, as a therapist, I I've been a therapist for so long. I could tell, and it doesn't matter if I mean I can't, I can't in my mind, maybe with anxiety and depression and PTSD, I can, but like automatically diagnose without looking at all the criteria because you guys, people come in all the time and say, I have OCD, I have, I have anxiety, I have depression. And you have to meet certain number of criteria in the DSM 5TR, I think it is now. You have to meet certain criteria in order to have that diagnosis. So you you might have, you know, three or four different symptoms that are listed in the criteria. That doesn't mean you have the diagnosis, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Yeah. So back to when I was assessing, diagnosing all those things, and I did have to do treatment plans. I did have to do a diagnostic assessment for insurance purposes for them to use their insurance, which I just, huh, it's a total upside down system. And I I'm praying and believing that the Lord's gonna turn that system upside down and make it right. Because right now it's very upside down wrong, I feel like. Um, I don't think we should have to have a diagnosis for insurance to pay. We're paying out money. Like, don't get me going as I'll preach a whole hour sermon on this. We're paying out money for insurance to pay, and yet they're dictating whether or not we're gonna get reimbursement for our medical care and mental health care. It's like err.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Um, Nathan gets texts all the time that say G R R R R R when I get on a little rant about something.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Um so what do you what do you think when you when in those instances when you have had to do a diagnosis and when you've come to the diagnosis of anxiety or depression, and again, the clinical diagnosis based on what's in the DSM 5 in your mind, are you going, oh yeah, so this person is gonna have depression for life? This person's gonna have anxiety for life.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Absolutely not. Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

How does that work then?

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Well, the way that works is whenever I have had to diagnose, and I've diagnosed many, many, many people, whenever I have done that, I say, look, there's some benefits of having this diagnosis, and there's some non-benefits to being told this. So one of the things I think probably one of the few things I liked about diagnosing is that people would say, Oh, that's what's been going on with me, right? Um, that would help them understand their symptoms better. And the and the the cons about it is that a lot of people do think, okay, this is mine for life, right? And even in the medical world, which we're not going to talk too much about, but in the medical world, all the medical world also wants you to believe you're gonna have a diagnosis forever.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

Okay, so if if that's not a forever diagnosis, tell me how how can it not be a forever diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Well, how it cannot be a forever diagnosis, Nathan, is to do the work. Do the work, which is why I was and still am always super emphatic about homework for people. You probably remember every week, Nathan. This was your homework. Did you do it right? Um, and I do I just do that with every client. And I I think it's important to ask about homework and to have clients do homework. You've I think I've said this in the podcast before, we have so many hours in the week, and one hour of therapy a week or one hour of coaching a week isn't gonna get it, it's not gonna bring resolution. So you have to apply the things you're hearing. If you're just going in, if you're seeing a therapist or coach and you're just going in and talking about things and you're and they're not teaching you, I love there's a teacher, there's a big part of me that's a teacher. I love teaching people skills and tools. And as a as a Christian therapist and a Christian coach, I appoint people to scripture and I pray with them and turn them to the Bible. And I think uh I think integrating faith has brought astronomical pe healing to my clients. And the Lord has always given me a way to integrate faith, whether someone is a believer or not. He's always given me a way um to integrate faith, and I think that that has made huge changes, like using EMGR with integrating faith. Obviously, listening prayer is integrating faith. Sometimes I've done listening prayer for people who aren't believers, and it still brings healing. So, and it's all about a mindset. If you if a client comes in and they get the diagnosis, and sometimes this happens, oftentimes this would happen. They would come in and say, My well, my anxiety, my anxiety was really high. I'm like, uh nope, it's not your anxiety. We are not gonna own that diagnosis. I want you to say the anxiety I'm experiencing. I don't want you to be in denial about the symptoms. That's not gonna help you to be in denial, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:48

But you don't have to own them. You don't have to be a part of you.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

That's right. Because the Bible says your words speak life or death. And um, you don't have to know me for very long to know that I'm pretty adamant about the words you use, right? All of my clients, every one of my clients, uh within minutes, within seconds of them saying the word should, they'll be like, oh, I mean, uh, I mean, right? Because should is a shaming word. It's like you pointing that index finger at yourself. I should have done this, I should have done that. You know, and we can have that's another, that's actually another symptom of depression, anxiety, and trauma is negative self-talk.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Negative self-talk, negative self-talk. Could be really cruel.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Yeah, oh, really cruel in ways that we would never be with somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, and I I think that is a really good barometer of because it's it's difficult for us to know what our self-talk ought to be like because we only live one self. We only have the one self. That's right. Those of us who don't have dissociative identity disorder, and and we only have the one self. And so I can't know what your self-talk is like. That's right. I just know what mine is like. And so when we don't have a barometer, it can be hard to understand if what we're experiencing is normal or not normal or or whatever. Right. But I think that that's a really good question that we can ask ourselves is the way I'm talking to myself right now, is this how I would talk with someone I love?

SPEAKER_01 40:16

And that's a question I often ask in the when I was a therapist, and sometimes as a coach, like a coach now, yeah. I would I would say, would you say that to your best friend?

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

And usually it's like, well, no, you know, then why are you saying that to yourself? Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Which I'm I imagine I've been there, I've been that person, and I remember just going, Oh, crap. Okay, yeah, all right. So I hear what I hear you saying is things like diagnoses of anxiety, depression, and then you brought up PTSD also, that those don't have to be lifetime diagnoses if we utilize what I think you're saying are the right treatment modality to address the root causes. So here I want to give an example. You used EMDR as a tool. I have already spoken a lot about that. I'm not gonna say any more about it. I love it. But as an example, what if my anxiety, the root cause of my anxiety, were an iron deficiency? You can give me all the lemon juice you want, right? And it's not gonna fix my iron deficiency. You can give me uh uh all the all the Prozac you want, it's not gonna fix my iron deficiency.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

But if I maybe eat some steak, or I wish you could see his face now, you guys. He's got steak on his mind and his yeah, his eyes are big.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Or I maybe take some iron supplements and then I bring my iron levels up to healthy normal, right? Then that having been the root cause, the higher superficial symptom of my anxiety will go away.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

Right, right. And it is sometimes those nutrient deficiencies, even vitamin D plays a really big role, right? Yeah. I would talk to people about their vitamin D and have them have those levels tested by their doctors, right? Yeah. Because that can certainly, it can certainly influence it. And we're not gonna talk much about medicine, but maybe a little bit about medicine because, and I think we've covered this a little bit before, but I don't want to spend too much time on it because neither of us are medicinal experts, right? But um, I've had a lot, a lot of clients on uh, you know, antidepressants, on anti-anxiety medications, on ADHD medications, on the wide variety of medications. And medications uh these days I'm not a super big fan of, but I listen, if you're on medications and they're helping you, I think that's awesome, right? I am definitely not saying don't take medications or do take medications. I'm not saying that, but what I do want to say is that they are dispensed very, very frequently, right? And you can get those antidepressants, anti-anxieties from a general practitioner that maybe doesn't know a whole lot about depression or anxiety or trauma or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, and I think what we're saying is to have an open and a curious mind about what the symptoms you're experiencing. And I think we're encouraging people to say, hey, there are these, there are numerous potential root causes. Let's actually identify that and then use a treatment modality that addresses the root cause, not just fling stuff at a wall and see if it works.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Right. For anxiety, one of the best treatment modalities is cognitive behavior therapy, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

And I think of that as a very basic intervention because I believe most therapists should know how to do that. There's oh, not should, right? I believe most therapists would know how to do that because it's a really basic intervention, but it is a life altering. Life-changing intervention when you start to practice mindfulness. Mindfulness goes hand in hand with cognitive behavioral therapy, abbreviated to CBT. Mindfulness goes hand in hand. Like I just caught myself saying should, right? And I just reframed that should. That's some cognitive behavior therapy cognitive. Reframing. Reframing. Yep. And you have to teach yourself to catch yourself in those net in that negative self-talk, in the shame when shame shows up, um, when condemnation shows up. You have to catch yourself in those places. And for us as believers, I encourage people to go to the word and say, now what is the word? What's the truth of what the word says about you? Right. Um, so yeah, anxiety, depression, chronic pain, those can all be symptomatic. They can all partner, even eating disorders can partner with PTSD.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

Yep. The last clinic that I worked at treated trauma, eating disorders, depression, anxiety. And they did that because they all they all go together, right? And my colleagues and I would frequently discuss like, what do we go after first? Right. Because eating disorders, and I I never did um really take a deep dive with eating disorders, but um, eating disorders can wreak havoc in your life, they can actually be life-threatening. Um I and that I did work with um a client. I worked, I did some family work with a client who um the client had the eating disorder and the family came in and we did some family therapy around that, and and that can be really powerful, family therapy, because what we go through influences everyone.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

And so just just a little side note that family therapy can be helpful. But um we would yeah, we would often say, what do we treat first, right? Because and I think I would always choose to treat what was the loudest.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Uh okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Um, when you think about that volume knob, what's being the loudest, what symptoms are being the loudest. And oftentimes at a clinic, and I know this can happen a lot when you when you're at a medium, it doesn't really doesn't matter what size of a clinic, but multi-practitioners there. Like if I did have a client with p a PTSD diagnosis and they had an eating disorder, they would see someone else for the eating disorder and see me for the trauma. And so we would do that quite often. And we had eating disorder groups and we had um intensive um IOPs, intensive outpatient treatment that a lot of people would take part in. And so, yeah, so that's why they treated all of those because they're all connected, they're all tied together. However, comma, I still want to say, you guys, there's still hope. Don't ever, don't ever feel hopeless because there is still hope. No matter the symptoms you're dealing with, no matter if you do have the P the diagnosis of PTSD, anxiety, depression, chronic pain, there is still hope. And I I this is where I just want to talk a little bit about a client that um, you know, Nathan, you and I talk about how the client and the therapist bond. This client and I bonded a lot. As you know, when you're doing this deep work, that's what happens, right? Because you're talking about really deep, deep things.

SPEAKER_03 47:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

But this client and I really bonded, and they they came to me very helpless, hopeless, a lot of despair, um, a lot of physical symptoms, some chronic pain, intense childhood trauma, very intense childhood trauma. Um, and they they I don't know, they just they quickly stole my heart. And um this person had just bought a plant that was pretty dead. And they bought the plant on purpose when they started um seeing me. And at the end of our time together, Nathan, that plant had thrived so much that the client had wrapped it around, you know, the pot holder where the what the pot the plant was planted in. Did I say that right?

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Um, the plant had wound its way, it had gotten so long and had thrived so well, they had it wrapped around the pot that it was in. And I'll I'll just never forget the last session because they had that they had that plant present and they were like, This is what you helped me do.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

That's beautiful, and there's just almost no greater satisfaction.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

Um I'm I'm trying not to cry. There's no greater satisfaction, and I still get that satisfaction, but uh in a little bit different way, um, but there's no greater satisfaction to me than to walk through those those painful things with someone and to remind them how loved they are by people, by God. There's just no greater satisfaction than doing that. So I just want to encourage you, even if your symptoms feel hopeless, and I I've walked with a handful of people dealing with chronic pain, and I want to tell you, chronic pain is born out of trauma many, many times, and doctors don't know that often. They don't know that. Um, I've had uh you know, I've had clients with autoimmune disease. Autoimmune disease is born for sure out of trauma. Your body attacking itself, born out of trauma. And I I even even cancerous cells. There was um at a church that I used to go to, there was a naturopath practitioner, and this blew my mind, but I was I I like this about him. But he, if you didn't forgive people, he wouldn't, he wouldn't take you on as a client.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

Because of what unforgiveness does in your body.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

He said your cells literally close up, they create a covering over them when you have unforgiveness. Um, they that there's a covering that comes over them and they can't function like they were created to function. So if you're not willing to walk through forgiving people, he would not work with you. And I had never heard of that. And I thought that's really bold and brave and so wise. So wise. Because why would you take on a client who wasn't willing to process forgiveness? Now, for me as a therapist or even me as an abundant life coach, um, I would still take on those clients because that was part of my job that was and is. You know, I still work with people who want to walk through forgiveness. So I help people get to a place, and this just happened in a session this week, where somebody said, I need to forgive someone. And then I said, Okay, do you want to talk, you know, do you want to go through the process of literally forgiving or them, or do you need to process it a little bit? And as we got to talking, they were like, Oh boy, I think I need to process it a little bit, right? Because they they weren't quite ready to give up the anger or the strong emotions that were there. And we could you've got more to say about that, probably not in this podcast. Um, I could do a whole podcast on on my experience with forgiveness, but forgiveness, everyone is super, super important. And the Bible talks about 70 times seven. And just a little, just a little side note. I'm doing some somatic body work right now with this incredible woman. Nathan's like, sure, that woman has got you pegged. And I'm like, she sure as heck does. So um that I know I say this all the time. That could be another podcast too, somatic, how somatic interventions you can do to help with depression, anxiety, trauma symptoms, really any any kind of mental health, even physical health. Um, because things get stuck in our bodies. I think emotions um get stuck in our bodies, in our fascia. And this person I'm that I'm working with does all these weird things to my body, and I I get up off the table and I can walk differently, and emotions, I can feel emotions, big emotions. Um yeah, she's rocking my world. Um, so don't feel helpless and hopeless about whatever symptoms you're experiencing because they you can work through them. Does it take time? It does take time, it does take time. Um, but time learning and healing is way better spent than time staying stuck, helpless, hopeless, defeated, all the things.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

And I also think going back to that plant, it what a great example of the choices that we make and how they can influence others. If we choose to stay in the place of hurt, anger, fear, sadness, bitterness, unforgiveness, anxiety, depression, whatever, if we choose to stay there, right? That whether we intend it or not, whether we recognize it or not, that's the energy that we share with others around us. And often that is disproportionately going to affect the people that we love the most just because they happen to be the closest to us. That's right. And that is not good soil for growing anything.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

Whereas if we and when we make the choice to do the work and we move to a place of love, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, and understanding, when we move to that place, then that's what we share with other people. And we enrich their soil and they grow better because of it, and the fruits that they bear are the sweeter because we've helped nurture their growth.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

In the healthiest way, we've helped we've helped nurture their growth. And we were talking a lot about this yesterday in the last couple of days, I think. And I remember the first half of what you love to say vic victorious or oh yeah, victor or vanquished. Victor or vanquished.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yep, the choice is yours.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Yep, yep. And I think that is such a powerful phrase, victor or vanquished.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Right? We get to decide, even if you feel like you're not at a place where you can decide to become the victor, think about a baby step.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

That's right. Right? Think about a baby step.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

And you guys, uh a baby step that I introduce right off the bat with clients, even now as a life coach, is breathing and mindfulness.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

That's a great one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:35

Because you can't change a lot of things that you're not aware of, right? So I do a breathing exercise. I just say, okay, notice how it feels to be seated where you're where you're sitting. Take a look around on the inside of your body. Where are you feeling stress and tension? Notice where you're carrying stress and tension. With the mis with the massage therapist that I'm seeing right now that does the body work, she'll touch my jaw and she'll say, Oh, your jaw's tight. She'll touch my neck, oh, your neck's tight. And I'm like, Yes, I know. I know. That's where all the symptoms show up is in my jaw and in my neck and in one of my thighs. You guys, I don't, I don't know what she did to my thigh. I've never had a massage therapist put two elbows in my thigh, Nathan.

SPEAKER_00 55:23

That does not sound comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

It was not very comfortable, but I feel like I have a new leg now. Yeah. I feel like I have a new leg, so it was worth a little bit of pain that it caused.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

But breathing and mindfulness is a baby step.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:37

Right? I think the next baby step after you become mindful is like being aware of what you're saying, being becoming aware that words speak life or death. And I've talked in a previous podcast about Dr. Emoto and the experiment that he did with frozen water. And he did, he spoke negatively to water and positively to water. When he spoke negatively, it looked like a messy, blobby, even sometimes a little evil. And then when he spoke positively, it looked like the most beautiful star flake with just like intricate designs. And that was he's proving, I don't even know if he was a Christian, but he's proving the word of God because the word of God says, again, words can either bring life or death.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

And one thing I want to say is that when I when I hear that, the very first thing that I think about is ooh, I need to be mindful about how I speak to other people, which is absolutely accurate.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

And that has to start with your internal dialogue toward yourself.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

So becoming aware of how you're speaking to yourself about yourself, the things you believe about yourself, yes, the story you tell yourself about yourself, those are all really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yes, and Nathan, some of the latest research says you're well, I think we've known this for a long time. Well, I don't know how long. I'm not a biologist. I could I want to be all the things. I want to be all the things because I'm so fascinated with how the body works and how the brain works. But our cells listen to what we say, and our cells listen to what we think. How scary is that? Um, not to scare anybody, but just to practice more mindfulness about what your thoughts are, what you're thinking, right? Because oh, I'm gonna butcher the the scripture. Um but it's like out of the heart, I think the mouth speaks.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:39

So we want to be aware of all of that. And as I've shared in previous podcasts, I used to be a really, really angry person, and that manifested in so many ways. So many ways that weren't good, so many ways that weren't good for me and that weren't good for my ex-husband.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

All right. Well, that was freaking, that was awesome.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

You weren't you weren't expecting that.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

I was not expecting that one totally caught me off guard. Well, listen, I think this is a good place for us to wrap up.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

And what we're gonna talk about next time is we're gonna talk a little bit about post-traumatic, wait for it, growth.

SPEAKER_03 58:25

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

Um we we know that post-traumatic stress is talked about a lot, and that's and rightfully so. Yes. But we're gonna talk about post-traumatic growth, and we're gonna talk a little bit about the cave.

unknown 58:38

What?

SPEAKER_01 58:38

The cave?

SPEAKER_00 58:39

The cave.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

Oh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yep. Yeah. I remember the cave. Cool. All right. Do we want to share a little bit of gratitude?

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Yes, but you go first, because you're always prepared, and I'm not ever prepared.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

I what am I grateful for today? I I think I'm just overwhelmingly grateful for how beautiful this summer has been. The beautiful green grass, the green leaves, the blue sky, the bright warm sunshine, and that I have all of the health to be able to appreciate that. I'm not stuck in a hospital room. I'm not on my deathbed. I'm not blind. I I can see all of this beauty, I can hear the birds.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

You know?

SPEAKER_01 59:28

Nathan loves the birds unless it's 5 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

There was a bird that sat outside four inches from my window, and she, and it wasn't, it was a couple with a female cardinal. I know. They look different. And she she turned at my window and would squawk at me for just and I'm like, man, I'm trying to sleep. Like, go away. And she wouldn't, and I eventually had to relocate her nest, which didn't have anything in it. There were no no birds, no eggs, no anything. She's lucky I didn't make her a chicken nugget. But anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

She's really compassionate unless you jack within sleeping guys. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

And I love birds. I love birds. I can't hurt birds, they have wings, I have wings. But that one, she got close.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

She got close to getting fried.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:24

She got close.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

We're not gonna talk about the things Nathan likes to eat. That'll make me nauseous.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Um, okay, so Nathan stole mine, but I'm still gonna keep it. As soon as he started talking, I was like, dang it, Nathan. That's what I was gonna say. But my my self-therapy is my patio. And it has been really beautiful weather here, and so I have a swing that I love on my patio, and I love to just go sit in my swing. Sometimes I'll work, sometimes I'll read, sometimes I'll pray, listen to music, all the things. I am on that patio as often as I can be. Um, yeah, it's kind of my little safe haven. So I'm really grateful for my patio. It's a little L-shaped patio, yeah. So I can see, like, I don't know, I have a wider perspective than most people in my building. So I love that. Yeah, especially when it's breezy and the birds are singing. Yes. Oh, and Nathan, you've seen my eagle. I have an eagle that lives really close to me. And uh, I think we were sitting outside, I don't know when. I think maybe yesterday, and the eagle came and I was just like, come here, come a little closer. Sometimes they'll they'll sometimes he, I don't know, he or she will fly really close to the patio, and I'm like, pray them on over because I want them to get really close. Eagles, I don't know about you guys, but I love eagles.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:58

All right, that's really good. Yeah, and finally, guys, we we want to thank you. You've chosen to spend some of your very valuable time with us. We really hope that you've gotten something out of this, and we look forward to talking with you again soon on Divine and Most Unlikely.