Post-traumatic Growth

In this episode we discuss:

1. How to recognize triggers.
2. How to surf the wave of our emotions, rather than fight them.
3. Choosing to respond versus reacting.
4. Taking responsibility for actions and their outcomes.
5. How to recognize mistaken beliefs, and what to do with them.

If you feel triggered by any information in this podcast, or if you feel led to start your own therapeutic healing journey, please visit psychologytoday.com to find a mental health therapist in your area.

If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call 911 or 988 for support. You can also visit 988lifeline.org for more resources, and information.

Remember.....YOU MATTER!

To schedule a discovery session with Sherri, please go to Elevatetoabundantlife.com. 

The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to Divine and Most Unlikely. You're spending a little bit of time with me, Nathan, and Sherry. Sherry, last time we talked a little bit about how trauma might manifest itself. We talked about some physical ways, some emotional, some behavioral, and those are all really important. We also talked about the fact that some of those diagnoses, anxiety, depression, post-traumatic stress, those are not an endpoint.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

They're a mile marker along the journey. That's right. And what determines whether you stay there or not is you. It's the choices you make and the path you decide to take forward from that mile marker. Yes. You can stay on that road, you can get on a different one. It's up to you.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

So we also wanted to talk a bit about post-traumatic growth.

SPEAKER_05 0:53

And can I can I interrupt for just one second, Nathan? Because I there was one thing when we ended the last podcast that I thought, oh, I really wanted to say that. So before we jump into post-traumatic growth, I want to say this about trauma. And I've probably said this before, but I you can never say some things too many times. Is that the enemy of our soul, of our spirit, um oftentimes gets his hooks and his claws in us through trauma, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22

And so um I always just want to encourage people to engage in their spiritual beliefs, right, when they're on their healing journey as well, because I just think that makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33

Um, especially when we're coming against the enemy. I vividly remember you and I went back and forth with this one podcast, Sean Ryan. We both love Sean Ryan.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

And the podcast, I think, was five hours long. I can't remember the guy's name.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Oh, uh I'll think of it in a second, but I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 1:51

Yeah. The podcast was like five hours long. And I think he told Sean, he was a former Navy SEAL as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Heed Scobell.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

Yep, yep. He told Sean that demons love Navy SEALs. And he said that because Navy SEALs go through so much trauma, right? And so I'm gonna also take this opportunity if you're in the military, male, female, or if you're um have been in the military, now you're retired or just no longer in the military. I want you to know that that is one of the bravest things you can do is to go find healing from any traumatic experiences that you've had, whether it was military-based or not, many, many times people, and I'm not gonna stay here too long, but sometimes many, many people come into the military from a place of trauma, and then the trauma stacks up after military experiences, whether there's deployment or not. So I just want to say that's one of the most courageous things you can do is to seek support and seek help and healing because there is absolutely post-traumatic growth to be found. You and I've both experienced that.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

I've had many, many clients experience that. The clients that have come in, and Nathan was one of the most serious clients I think I've ever worked with because he he attended therapy for twice a week for I think two years. And so when you come in and you're determined and you're really serious on your healing journey, um, and there's there's not not there's not much Nathan isn't serious about. Um, I'm often like, Nathan, like what do you not what do you not, you know, accomplish is what I want to know. Because I'm over here like floundering in several areas of my life, and he's just like, Sherry, you just gotta keep being victorious. You can't vanquish things, Sherry. You have to be victorious. And I'm like, Nathan, we're not all like you.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Oh man.

SPEAKER_05 3:53

But anyway, it's just a really brave thing to do to go get support, whether you're military or not. But mostly, specifically, not mostly, but when you are military, that can be such a taboo thing to go get support, right? Um, but yeah, I just want to say that piece about that's how the devil, the enemy of our soul and our spirit, gets his hoax in us many times. And um, yeah, so we're gonna talk about post-traumatic growth. Are we gonna start out? You kind of left a little teaser last time, I did talking about the cave. And I don't think we've covered that in a podcast. We did a little sample podcast that we didn't post, and we talked about that a little bit, but um, I think that would be helpful for people to hear your experience with the cave.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

All right, so the cave is just uh a mental image that came to my mind, and this probably happened. I'm gonna guess, I don't know this for sure, but I'm gonna guess it happened around the two or three month mark in therapy. And we one of the tools that we have used a lot for me has been EMDR. Not necessarily the right tool for everybody, certainly not a panacea, but it's a really good tool, and for me, it was very effective. And what I told you at one point was that I feel like I have been out in a field at night and I don't have any way to see at night. And I'm out in this field and I don't have any weapon, and this thing kept attacking me, and I did, but I didn't know what it was, it just I I just felt the attack, and it hurt every time. That's all that I felt, the hurt. I didn't know what was causing it, but I just know that this I keep getting this strike after strike after strike, and it hurt, and that was really all that I knew.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

And then at some point, by virtue of both what you taught me with psychoeducation stuff and also EMDR, I started to actually understand what was going on. And my, you know, uh caveman Viking brain went to oh, I'm in a field and I've been getting attacked by an enemy I couldn't see. And what you gave me was you taught me first, this is an enemy. Second, you gave me the tools to see him in the dark. And thirdly, you gave me the weapons to go and fight him, and finally, you taught me where he lives. And so instead of me standing out in the field, hapless, unaware, just getting assaulted, now you gave me the strength, you gave me the power to go out on the offensive and to go hunt him down where he lives. Yes, where he thinks he's safe. That's right, and scour him out of that cave. And I told Sherry the mental image in my mind was like, you know, I'm standing there and I got a helmet on and armor and I got my rifle. And then Sherry's there standing next to me, and she's got a helmet on, the strap's not buckled, it's like sideways on her head. She's got a rifle, she's got bonding armor, too, and she's got this happy go-lucky look on her face, and like, yep, let's go mess some stuff up.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

So Nathan, Nathan never envisioned Nope, Nathan, nope, Nathan never envisioned a um a mama uh mama battle buddy, I did not or a female battle buddy.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Nope, not a female battle buddy, right?

SPEAKER_05 7:41

I'm I'm I think he when he thought about having a battle buddy, tell tell the story about what you thought. Your battle buddy.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

You know, like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Predator, you know, we got to get the get chopper. Go na. Everybody get the get the that's what I thought. Here and here comes Sherry.

SPEAKER_05 8:08

What? Do you do you know what one of my biggest weapons is?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Laughter. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

Who needs a weapon? Who needs a who needs a gun? Who needs a gun when you've got laughter? Because the word of God says um your joy is a weapon. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

So your Isaac is a weapon.

SPEAKER_05 8:30

My Isaac is a weapon, and we went into the cave, and one of our weapons was totally laughter.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Totally laughter. What were some of our other weapons that I that we used to help you hunt down your enemy in the cave?

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Yeah, well, so before I talk about weapons, I just want to say a couple other things. Okay. There was there is a lot of power in being able to go out on the attack. No one likes being on the defensive. Right. No one likes being on the receiving end of something they can't control or predict.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

So true.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

But when you flip the switch and now you become the hunter and not the hunted, you are now the aggressor. You're taking the fight to the enemy. That is a really good feeling. And that happened for me somewhere, like I said, in that two to three month mark, because now I started to understand. And one of the major weapons that we used was EMDR. It was we are going to identify mistaken beliefs and we are going to systematically go and hunt those down inside the dark cave.

SPEAKER_05 9:39

Yep, absolutely. And we didn't talk about that too much, you guys, in the last episode, but I do want to say mistaken beliefs, aka lies, aka false identities. That's what oftentimes develop when you've developed when you've experienced trauma. Whether it's chronic childhood trauma, I'm gonna say, especially when it's chronic childhood trauma, there can be a lot of mistaken beliefs, a lot of false identities. Um, but any kind of trauma causes us to have a false identity, right? Um, and I've many, many of my clients have experienced that. And and that also just brings me great pleasure to help people rewire those thoughts in their brain to create new neuropathways. And guys, the way you create, and I'm jumping in a little bit to post-traumatic growth, but I'll just say one thing, then we'll go back to the cave. But um creating new neuropathways in your brain is a part of post-traumatic growth, and I'll I'll touch more on that in a minute. So you're in the cave, you learned how you learned where the enemy lived. Yeah, you got tools to fight him with, yeah, and then you you went into the cave sometimes, maybe on your own. A lot of times we went together, yes, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

And I and there's a lot of power in that too, because yeah, you can look, you can be strong, you can be tough, you can be all that stuff, and you can be in a bad situation. And if you have just one other person there with you, even if they're not fighting the same fight, they're not carrying the load, just having another person there in the middle of the suck makes it better. It makes it a little bit easier to just embrace the suck.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

So really like find a good battle buddy and get in that fight, you know, together. And so I would say, yeah, a lot of times it was together. Yes, there were times when it was alone. Some of that was sort of, you know, outside of therapy, you know, especially early on when I would have just those overwhelming negative thoughts, painful emotions, stuff like that. You know, being able to work through that. And sometimes, to be honest, it wasn't like I was able to find a way to magically talk myself into feeling better. It was just like Kipling says, telling them to hang on. And I just hung on, you know, until that stuff passed. Because one of the other tools that you gave me was understanding that those emotions are not a permanent place. And when they feel so big and when they feel so hurtful and so painful, it feels like oh this is how it's gonna be for like I'm gonna feel this way forever. Right. And when you start to be able to recognize it as a wave, there's gonna be an onset, an upstroke, a peak, a downstroke, and it's gonna go away. And you just gotta hang out, you gotta surf that wave through those difficult emotions. That's another tool that you've given me.

SPEAKER_05 12:41

Good. I love that, Nathan. I love that. Yes, we can sometimes feel like emotions are factual. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

And one of my favorite phrases is that feelings aren't always facts. We can feel a lot of different things, and it's just not always facts.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

And one thing I want to say about that, that can first of all be very careful about if you use that phrase with someone, uh, especially if it's someone you love and it in it. That's right. Because that that statement, well, it is true, feelings are not facts. What that can sound like is it is devaluing the feeling, and that's not what we're saying at all. Yes. The feelings are incredibly important.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

We're simply drawing a distinction between the the powerful, very important, very real feeling and the fact or facts of a situation. Those may not necessarily be the same.

SPEAKER_05 13:34

Yep. And Nathan, one of our favorite tools would be helpful in that circumstance, and that is the tool of being curious.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Oh.

SPEAKER_05 13:41

Right? Because when you're curious, it doesn't that doesn't come from a heart of judgment. It comes from a place of wanting to understand what somebody's feeling and what they're going through. And so if you use curiosity in those instances, now I know you're feeling really afraid right now. Can you tell me more about that fear? Like what does that fear look like? How's that fear impacting you? Those are questions of curiosity, and that makes people feel safe enough to open up to you, and then maybe you can walk more alongside of them.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Another tool that you gave me had to do with identifying parts of self.

SPEAKER_05 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

And so this one was just like this is one of those things that just put me in tears. But you had helped me to identify, and by the way, this was this was shocking for me that a lot of the difficult emotions and responses that I was feeling internally were the result of trauma that I experienced in childhood. And so you you kind of had asked as a part of the identification of parts of self, something like, hey, you know, when when do you when do you think this started? Or or when you're feeling those feelings, what what age does that feel like it's coming from? And I think I'd said something like a six or seven-year-old version of me. And then you would often say, you know, you would often say to me, because I am very, I have very high standards for myself. And I I would say that I have had a tendency to be very harsh with myself and not at all forgiving, or there's no slack. There's no slack.

SPEAKER_05 15:21

You should see his face now, you guys. He's like, he's like a drill sergeant, he's got a drill sergeant face on him right now.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

And one question that you asked me, just an earnest question, was if that six or seven-year-old boy were standing in front of you, is this the stuff that you would say to him right now?

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

And that definitely put me in tears because I just I had never thought of it like that. But that leads to another tool, which is really compassion and love for that injured, wounded, scared, hurt part of yourself.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Um, because anger, addressing that part of yourself with anger, just like if you were to address someone who came to you who had emotional hurt with anger, that will only hurt more.

SPEAKER_05 16:12

Right, right. And what happens, Nathan, if you're angry towards that little boy part of self, if you have an anger response towards him, therapy's not going to be very helpful because you've got to partner with each part of yourself on the healing journey.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:28

Right?

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Plus that part of you, it feels afraid. And it can't be, it can't be, it feels like it can't come out. It's got to, you know, hide. And yeah, and and that's not integration. But he's a part of you, just like every other part of you is a part of you.

SPEAKER_05 16:42

Yep, yep, absolutely. The little boy part, you guys, as he's talking about the little boy part, the little boy part manifested. It is just always so sweet. And and that, again, in the last podcast, we talked about dissociative identity disorder. And that is not what we're talking about right now when we're talking about parts of self. We all have parts of self. I have the little girl part, the adolescent part, the young adult part, the adult part. I have a survival skills part, I have a protective part that tried to protect me. And many times we have those protective parts that, and they they were helpful. They were helpful back when we didn't know what was going on. Those protective parts are often so helpful. But when you become an adult and those protective parts show up, they're not so helpful. Like leaning into a good cheeseburger and french fry for me, that was like that was comfort food, and that protected me. So part of my the way that one of the ways the protective part of me helped maybe to make me feel safe was by food. And that was good when I was a kid, and I didn't have any language for what I had experienced, and I didn't have any of these skills and tools. That's why I'm so passionate about it now. But um, I didn't have those as a kid growing up, so sometimes those protective parts come and we get survival skills that aren't necessarily helpful, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Another tool that you gave me really, I would just characterize as awareness, but it's sort of the ability to detach from yourself, to take a step back from yourself just for a moment, and then look at that self that's in front of you and see a little bit about what's actually going on right there. Right. How that person is actually feeling, what that person is actually thinking, why they're thinking these thoughts, and then sort of rejoining that self with that from from having been in that detached observer perspective, rejoining them to make some different choices about how you're how you're behaving.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

Yep, yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Another tool I would say that you gave me is forgiveness.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

That's a big one. Yeah, that's a really big one, it's a really big one. And whenever you guys I have to broach a really hard topic with people, and I still do this even with coaching, I I say, now I'm gonna shouldn't we say something? Yeah, yep. And um, as believers, Christ tells us that if if we don't forgive others, that he's not gonna forgive us. And I think he's such a God of grace and mercy, you guys. He is so grace-filled, so merciful. Um, but forgiveness is important. Um, and Nathan and I talk about this all the time, still, because man, is it an ongoing thing, right? The Bible, the Bible talks about doing it 70 times seven. And I talked also in the last podcast that I'm going to see uh a person who does somatic body work, she she does fashion massages, and man, she's she's changing my life. And okay, where was I going with that? Um oh she said, Is there anyone you need to forgive? And I just shook my head and I said, Man, I have forgiven way more than 70 times seven, and she immediately said, Well, we're gonna do it again. And I was like, All right, here we go again. But you guys, it's so true that offenses happen all the time. People can like, you know, you get that little prickle in your spirit, and that's an offense sometimes. And so, yes, I have had to forgive many people time and time and time again. And and I've just made a habit of, you know, as often as I can remember, like, Lord, who do I need to forgive today? Has anyone offended me? Has anyone said something that was painful or hurtful or didn't remember something or didn't do something? And you guys, this this massage guru is not a therapist, but she told me to journal about love. Journal about love. And man, I journaled about love this morning. Took me a few days to get there. Uh um, but I journaled about love and and just looked at first Corinthians, I don't know if it's in chapter 13, but the verse, the the verses on love. Very familiar with um believers. But I'm like, okay, Sherry, you do this part, this part, this part really well. And Sherry, you don't do this part, this part, this part very well. And some of that was like keeping no records of wrong, Stephen. Yeah, keeping no records of wrong. So guess what we do when we have trauma?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

We're keeping a record of the wrongs.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Oh boy, don't you know it.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

And that may not even be at a conscious level.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

No, not usually, not usually, but sometimes, yeah, but not always. So I'm gonna let you take it away with forgiveness when you and I really had a conversation around forgiveness, and oh, it was well.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

I just remember you saying, and you know, she's got you guys, she's got everything changed. changes in her like her her posture, her body language, her face, her voice, everything changes. And so she she says, you know, I I just I just want to gently suggest that we may need to talk about forgiveness for your dad. And you know internally I'm like, yep, that totally makes sense. I have for years needed to do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

And is it something that I I didn't know how to do it and it is very unlikely that I would have done it on my own. But you know when she suggested it and and we had we had done so much work on a number of different areas it just felt like the as soon as she she suggested it seemed like the logical next step for me. And so I just remember going okay like this sounds great. How the heck do I actually do that? And she said one of the yeah she said one of the most important things that has like absolutely stuck with me and it applies not just to this but other things and she said Nathan I think it's about heart posture. Oh you love that word right I love that yeah and what it made me think of is I'm I was more thinking of like a security posture. You know your security posture changes based on the threat and it physically looks different. You're going to do different things you wear different things different weapons different you know external perimeter all that stuff and when she said that I thought oh crap okay now I understand I and it was something that I'd never done before but I needed to change my heart's posture toward my dad from one of I would say there was anger there was bitterness there was resentment there was disappointment there was judgment and more things I'm not trying to there's more things there but I just can't I don't want to spend that much time but but but changing that toward one of love and that was that was very difficult. And then part of my experience with forgiving him because generally I'm pretty good at that not him specifically but just people generally I'm pretty good at that I just don't have the energy to hang on to crap it's I got other stuff going on but he was a different story and it one of the things that I have learned is for me I don't know if it's this way for anyone else but for me it is an ongoing daily choice. It's not I thought it was a oh I'm gonna you know I'm gonna have the lollipop once and once I get to the center it's done no more one two three I was hoping you would say that because you guys when he comes over to do the podcast I have the I have seven minutes on the counter and I offer him a mint and he just looks at me summoning I get a summon eye look and I'm like Nathan do not crunch the letter and what do you say every single time how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop a one a two a three and a three he crunches okay so forgiveness is not the center of the Tootsie Pop, okay it's it's a daily choice that I have had to make and there are certainly times where it's a little more difficult than others and nevertheless it's volition. The other thing I would say is it's not a feeling meaning I don't feel in a forgiving mood and then I choose to forgive. It's I choose to forgive it has nothing to do with the feeling it has everything to do with the fact that I know that it's the right thing and it's the right thing for that other person. The other person doesn't deserve that mental persecution or prosecution and probably even more importantly I don't deserve to live with all of those negative things that I said the anger the resentment the disappointment the bitterness all of that and there's a great quote from the Buddha and I'm definitely going to butcher this but it's it says something like anger is like picking up a hot coal to throw it at someone else and hurt them. All that happens is you pick it up and burn yourself. And that is really what we deal with when we choose not only anger but when we choose unforgiveness and so for me that was a huge tool and it was a tool not only that I needed to turn externally which as much as that was not fun that was a little more comfortable than the recognition that I also needed to use that tool internally and forgive myself for some things that I did that do not reflect my character or who I really am.

SPEAKER_05 27:08

So I would say that's another really powerful tool yeah for sure Nathan yeah and you you guys whenever I make a suggestion like that to Nathan he takes the bull by the horns right away as you can imagine and he he did not take long to unblock his dad and reach out to his dad um to have that conversation with him and we talked a little bit too last time about what unforgiveness does it it it's like a cancer that takes over your body it can truly cause disease and it causes um a wide variety of things in our in our system when we when we hold that any kind of anger unforgiveness bitterness resentment because it all anger trickles down to all these other like cancerous emotions right yeah but I I do you want to say something well I was gonna say just reiterate that we know anger is not a primary emotion it's secondary that's right it arises from something like fear or hurt and it is designed to protect us.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah and it maybe in a in very limited circumstances for a very short duration of time it does but when that carries past that short duration and that specific instance it is no longer helpful it is hurtful.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

The other thing I want to say about forgiveness and then I want to I I want to hear what you have to say is I was thinking about forgiveness a lot when we had talked about this and I was just having an internal conversation with myself and what I sort of realized is that forgiveness is like having the key to a jail cell and you so powerful yeah and and you you look across and you see the person that you won't forgive and they're in the jail cell and when you turn your head to the left you realize you are also in a jail cell we talked about that right yeah and you have the key.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

Yeah so what kind of a monster these this is these are my thoughts she's gonna say something these are my thoughts those are strong words Nathan but my thought was what kind of a monster would possess the key to a cell and be able to release someone to freedom and out of sheer spite would keep both himself and that other person in the cell just so that he could have that righteous yeah that's right you did wrong and I'm right and mm-mm mm-mm now Nathan is doing a little bit of what we talked about earlier being a little harsh on himself I don't want anyone to think if you're carrying unforgiveness you're a monster because you're not um but he's just make he's just using a metaphor yeah and that that was that was my internal dialogue and I I truly I I know but we remember our last our last podcast we talked about wanting to be kind to all the parts of ourselves right and and Nathan man it was your little boy part your adolescent part your young adult part yeah right that was really really wounded by things that your dad did and one day Nathan is he's working on getting ready to share his testimony and his story but he was really wounded throughout his childhood right and it was those parts that didn't want to forgive that never even probably thought about forgiveness because when people do sometimes horrific things to us uh forgiveness is not usually off what's at the top of our mind right protecting ourselves is at the top of our mind um putting walls up around ourselves so we can stay safe another way of protecting yourself so never letting that happen again not just with that person but with anyone else I won't ever let this happen again. That's right. That's right. And usually Nathan we've talked about this a lot because we've both done that and many many many people with trauma do this is they overcorrect on a scale of zero to 10 and I still talk to Nathan about this today because he's very regimented he's very militaristic and I'm like let's loosen that dial just a little bit and he's got he's got an island boy part. Yeah he can engage the island boy really well and he's also learned since we've been working together you guys he's learned to take some vacation time oh yes that's been very you know what I think you've taken two I know you you you've you're I think you've he just recently took two weeks and he just yeah at the same time you guys scheduled another two weeks several months out yeah and he's like Jerry guess what I did and I'm like what he's like I scheduled two vacations and I was like at a boy way to go right um so it yeah it forgiveness you know when you're when he was a little boy when he was an adolescent young adult we don't even have that language if you don't grow up you know it's it's usually in faith that for forgiveness is even talked about forgiveness isn't a big important thing to do in our world today unfortunately and boy oh boy guys if it was if it was right racial relationships would be different family relationships would be different um yeah they'd be really different but I have to brag on him a little bit okay he um he he took the bull by the horns after we talked about forgiving his dad I don't remember how many days I don't think it was many days at all that he unblocked his dad and he reached out and his dad responded very quickly and I think some anxiety came after that happened and I was able to pray with him before he had that phone call we kind of purposefully scheduled it at a time where I could pray with him before the phone call and then we uh processed after the phone call and you guys okay he's he's he did grow up in the Catholic church so faith is not new to him but a personal relationship with Jesus is very new to him and you guys oh man I was so proud of him because I prayed with him before and then afterwards when we um debriefed about you know what that was like for him he's like Sherry I decided while I was on the phone I wanted to have the heart posture of being on my knees yeah so he got on his knees I think you were at work in so on his knees in his office to have that conversation with his dad so the heart posture would be what the Lord what the Lord would want it to be because when we're on our knees you guys here's a little langu a little bit of language but that's okay you can be as badass as you want to be and he's a badass I tell him that all the time he doesn't he doesn't see it but he is he's a badass he's like I want to say something else but I don't know if I have permission so but he's a badass and and and the thought of him wanting to have the heart posture that God would want him to have is like he's like I need to get on my knees to do this.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah you want to talk a little bit about about that but I I just wanted to brag on him because I thought that was that was very brave of him in general to do right um well I remember just like right before the conversation maybe the couple days before I was having this sort of internal dialogue that I was gonna I was really gonna take it to my dad you know like tell him all the crap that he did wrong and exactly how I felt about it and and sort of in my mind I had this idea of like a fighter posture you know like oh you hit me guess what I hit back now get ready and I was sharing some of this with Sherry and she was again just like very gentle but kind of reminded me hey like where that's coming from is that teenage version of yourself that actually did need to protect yourself but that's not what this is now. You know you're not you're not there now.

SPEAKER_05 35:31

And so that that really sunk in but I do remember like as I picked up the phone to call and as he answered I something just like clicked in me that I need my posture my physical posture needed to be one of humility and so I literally took a knee and and just bowed my head held my head up with with one hand on one knee and the other hand held the phone and for 28 minutes that's where I stayed and I'm not necessarily certain that that applies to anyone else at any other time but I can tell you that for me I needed that posture of humility to prevent me from going somewhere I didn't want to and to keep my heart posture in that mode of you know love, compassion, understanding, forgiveness yeah yeah that is so so powerful humility right because when we are like you did face not face to face but over the phone with your dad when you're doing it literally with another person God does want us to do it in humility right because that's what brings about reparations right possible reparations right now we're still praying for complete restoration um for Nathan but you guys I I do definitely want to say this forgiveness is not equivalent to relationships being restored right yeah and you also told me another really important thing that forgiveness is not absolving and it's not saying that whatever the thing was is okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

It's not that and so I I really want people to hear that because that was a really significant distinction that I hadn't considered it's not saying that whatever the thing was was okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

It's simply choosing that's right not to continue to hold that hot coal you know trying to burn another person or drink the poison trying to poison them.

SPEAKER_05 37:31

Right right yep when I um when I got my last divorce we sat down in the living room and I'll just never forget this and we we had a lot of problems in our 28 years of marriage but we sat down in the living room and he I don't know who started it but he was like thank you for this thank you for that thank you for this and please forgive me for this and please forgive me for that and please forgive me and I did the same thing and I feel I I just think forgiveness is one of the most powerful tools and weapons if you will it's a weapon in the kingdom of heaven yeah it's a weapon because when you don't hold vengeance when you don't hold vengeance toward people you might consider your enemies and I told Nathan you guys the the Bible tells us it's it's easy to pray for people that we love.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

Right? But it's not so easy to pray for our enemies is it Nathan no it is not yep it's not so easy to pray for our enemies um so God calls us to do that God calls us to pray for people who have caused us pain or harm and here's the reason that God calls us to do that. God calls us to do that so we don't hold anger in our heart you cannot be angry with someone you're praying for.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

And anger hurts us and those around us it's it doesn't do good.

SPEAKER_05 38:56

Nope nope it doesn't do good. It is okay to get angry I'm not telling people to not get angry with what they've experienced in their lives whether it was like Nathan with his dad or me with my dad or different circumstances anger is okay but you do not want to live there right and you don't want to hang on to it. No, because when you hang on to it then it becomes bitterness it becomes resentment it becomes a toxic poison and it it just it festers when you hang on to it right I think we can feel all of our emotions but when you hang on to any of the negative emotions they're gonna start to fester and rot inside of you and then you're gonna become bitter and angry and and you're not gonna be a fun person to be around. Yeah and so the process of forgiveness is number one super important because God commands us to do it. And number two it's we don't want to get cancer from it. Right? No and we certainly can when we hold on to those negative emotions.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

And we don't want to share the cancer with people we love.

SPEAKER_05 39:57

That's right. That's right because you guys I was a little cancerous in my second marriage because that husband triggered all of my trauma he repeatedly over the 28 years did things not intentionally because he's a really nice guy he is he's a really nice guy but um he did things continually in the 28 years we were married that triggered me and um even after I even after I realized I had trauma and went to get help it was still it was just too probably too late. But um yeah you don't want to hold on to the to the bitterness and anger and the unforgiveness because it it affects everybody around you. Yeah it affected my kids growing up because I was resentful and bitter towards him pretty much for 28 years. Because he did those he made those choices for 28 years. And so that probably has had my kids on a couple of couches. Right I I used to tell clients um sometimes I might still tell clients um you know your kids are going to be in therapy it it doesn't matter how hard you work for them not to be um they're gonna be in therapy because we aren't perfect people right and I'm not saying everybody has to go to therapy but it's not a bad thing. I tell I used to tell my clients still tell my clients even as a life coach that we can't see our forest because we're in the we're part of the forest we're we've got trees all around us and I use that I use the metaphor I put my hand really close to my face and like we can't see clearly that's why we need coaches that's why we need therapists that's why we need mentors that's why we need pastors that's why we need best friends man you guys I don't know I think you've got a couple maybe one or two best friends dude friends dudes dudes yeah dudes they do they have dude conversations we do but that's why we need people in our lives that can say things and and my best friend Karen frequently says um Sherry you know such and such might be going on what do you think do you think that's a possibility and and then I'll say those things back to her because that because we we don't even though we're best friends we're not in the you know part of the family um and so yeah it's important to have those people in your life to speak truth to you yeah to help you through the challenges that we experience we've been talking about these tools because we this is part of what post-traumatic growth looks like it looks like so good Nathan yes it looks like being given or finding these sets of tools and then learning how to use the right tool in the right situation and you know one of the things is that if if you only have one tool on the belt and if that's a hammer everything looks suspiciously like a nail and you're gonna want to hammer that nail except not everything is a nail.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

Sometimes it's a freaking glass bowl and you shouldn't be whacking that with a hammer. Doesn't he have the best metaphors you guys so post-traumatic growth in part looks like learning tools learning how to use them and then actually employing them. Another one that we wanted to discuss is about taking responsibility. Now I want to just say that this is not necessarily something that everyone struggles with but some people do. And a part of of your post-traumatic growth and being a better stronger healthier version of yourself is learning to accept and take responsibility for your actions and for the outcomes those actions create. I have learned to be very cautious about what I say when I'm angry. Yeah and to just give myself time to be quiet or just not say anything or say less because I cannot un like like I cannot take back words once I've cast them out of my mouth. Regardless of how much I might wish that I want to. And then as the men I'm sure can attest in this conversation, if you say something once that you did not truly mean, but it sure felt good at the time, 16 years later, she's gonna remember that.

SPEAKER_05 44:32

I don't know what I don't know what you're talking about. Women, women, is that true? Uh I think it is.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

So if you don't want to be reminded of that thing that felt really good, but you shouldn't have said that 16 years ago, just don't say it in the first place.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Um, but taking responsibility for for our actions and for the outcomes of those actions.

SPEAKER_05 44:56

Yep. It is important because that is part of the road to victory, right? To getting victory over trauma, anxiety, depression, OCD, blah, blah, blah. Any symptoms that you're struggling with, that that is part of the recipe for the road to victory is taking responsibility for either what you've done, for um, how you've treated others, how you've treated yourself. We have to acknowledge that and embrace that in order to shift that and change it, right? Because you can't you can't change what you don't acknowledge, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:30

And that does take some humility.

SPEAKER_05 45:32

It does take absolutely humility.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

It's hard on our egos to look someone in the face and apologize and go, hey, this what I did, this was wrong. And I know it hurt, and I know it was mean, and I shouldn't have done it, and I wish I would have done it, and I'm sorry, and I I know I can't change the hurt that it caused, but man.

SPEAKER_05 45:50

Right. I've had to write an apology letter, had a conversation with my ex-husband apologizing, had a conversation with my oldest daughter. My oldest daughter, my youngest daughter showed the oldest daughter the apology letter and then talked to me about it, and I was like, do you need one of those too? And she's like, Well, maybe in the past I would have, but I don't think so now. But she's gotten a lot of verbal apologies, probably too many verbal apologies. Um, which is something that as a parent, when you've experienced trauma as a parent and you you go on the healing journey, and then you realize, oh man, I did this and this and this before I started the healing journey, so I need to ask forgiveness for. But you guys do not over-apologize, don't try to parent. This is another reason that healing is so important. The healing journey is so important, is that we try to parent out of that hurt place, out of that false identity, and then we're working for love and acceptance from our kids. And man, you don't you don't want to put that onus on them. That is not theirs, that is not theirs to own or to wear. You have to figure out your own healing journey. And someone said to me, probably my therapist, I don't know. Um, someone said to me recently, Sherry, once you get even more healed, you're gonna parent from a place of your solid identity. Um, and you're not gonna have to be looking for approval from your children. And as you know from several podcasts back, I now have I think 11 spiritual children. And Nathan and I had a conversation about this recently because you guys, I'm still struggling with some things. I've I've had, I don't know, just a ton of trauma, as many of you have. And so I'm still needing healing in certain areas. Part of that's part of the restoration process that God is using Nathan for. But I was like, Nathan, what would it look like if I were more fully healed as your spiritual mother? And boy, he was like able to rattle really cool things off. And I'm like, okay, I'm I really want to make that part of my goals to go for that, right? Because that's how I want to love people in general, whether it's my spiritual children, my natural children, or people in general, and I'm so so close, you guys. I've just got one really big thing to work on, but I'm so so close because I do feel like I love well, but I don't always receive love well, right? Um, and that's from the trauma, that's from not having that safe attachment as a child, yeah, right. Um, and we talked about that, you and I talked about that at one point for the podcast, but you guys, God created moms and dads to be the first safe people for children. Yeah, he created moms and dads to be the first safe people, and sadly, even in the womb, you guys, I was not safe. My dad was physically abusive because I in my healing journey, I just got this sensation or this picture of me in the womb, and like my mom getting beat while I was in the womb, and I went and asked her, this was I think many years ago. I went and asked her if she got beat while I was pregnant, and she said yes.

unknown 49:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

And I just want to reiterate what Sherry said because this is so important. And when she told me, I I didn't know this. So maybe other people already do know this. I certainly didn't. So I just want to reiterate here here's what it is a parent is supposed to be a child's first experience of unconditional love and safety.

SPEAKER_05 49:39

Yep. And Nathan, when they have their own trauma, they don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 49:46

Your dad didn't know how to do it. Maybe your mom didn't know how to do it. My dad and my mom didn't know how to do it. And because domestic violence was present in my life before I was even, before my mom was even pregnant with me, um, I I grew up under that. And so for a child to not know a sense of safety is it's it has a big, big impact. It has taken me all of my freaking life um to feel safe, you know, especially to feel safe with men, right? Um, which is another thing God is using Nathan to restore. And I'm telling you, in a completely healthy and whole, pure way, because he and I talk about you guys would I don't know what you would do if you heard all of our conversations. What would they do, Nathan?

SPEAKER_00 50:40

I don't know. I don't know. I think there'd be a lot of what the heck.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Nathan is frequent frequently says, Sherry, you and I do not do um shallow. Shallow. We do not do shallow.

SPEAKER_00 50:55

There's no, there's no, oh, some weather we're having. How about that local sports team? There's none of that. It's right into the deep end, no flotation device either, just deep end.

SPEAKER_05 51:10

For hours, you guys. For hours. And we're like at the end of the phone call or at the end of the visit. I'm like, how did we how did we get over here? We we started way over there. How did we get over here? But they're always they're always amazing, fascinating conversations. And um I I believe with all my heart, he was sent to me for a purpose, and I was sent to him for a purpose.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Amen.

SPEAKER_05 51:39

I believe that with all of my heart, thus the title of the podcast, Divine and Most Unlikely, right? And therapists that may be listening, man, I just want to encourage you to, I don't know, I know it's so hard. He knows, like, he's like, Sherry, you're you're not in the chair anymore. And I'm like, oh no, Nathan, but I was a chair for 25 years, you know, and so just trying to break out of that that I don't know, the mindset. And again, some of you may be shaking your head, and that's okay. But I'm telling you, God, God is doing a thing. He is doing a thing in my life through Nathan, and he's doing a thing in Nathan's life through me, like spiritually, emotionally, all kinds of ways. Um, so just don't don't underestimate God, yeah. You know, and and and he chooses, I don't know. He just he has his own way of doing things, his own plans, his own. He never checked in with me about this, but I I checked in with him a gazillion times about this, and I just heard Sherry. Trust me, Sherry, you don't know who you're raising up. Sherry, it's for such a time as this. Those are things that I heard repeatedly in the three years, and things that I still hear because I still check in, like, Lord, are we good? Is it okay? Is it all the things? Um, because in my world, you know, I've told you, oh, Nathan recently said, now we're getting way off the beaten path. But Nathan recently said, because I'm a big believer that God has taken us from the church age to the kingdom age. And I told him, Nathan, when I was first a Christian, I was told, don't, don't be alone with a man, don't have a people were even freaked out that I saw men as clients. I'm like, what the heck? So I've got I've had a lot of that rooted in earlier in my faith. And Nathan says to me, Sherry, do you think that's your part of leaving the church and going into the kingdom? And man, what a little light bulb, aha moment that was for me. I'm like, all right, you got me on that one. Um, but I I go, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Well, I just I wanted to talk about one more one more thing that absolutely, you know, post or a couple more things that post-traumatic growth looks like and one last tool, but then a little bit more of experience what that you know might feel like to live it.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

So you mentioned parenting, and that if parents have trauma that they haven't been able to work through, that they very likely may be parenting from a place of mistaken identity, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:17

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

And that translates to all different modes of life, not just parents, but it it shows up in how you're you are friends with people, it shows up in how you work. And it's not that that false identity, I think, falls under a broader umbrella of mistaken beliefs. And so part of what post-traumatic growth looks like is identifying those mistaken beliefs and then replacing the mistaken belief with what is the truth. And I want to share a little bit just about my own experience, but I'd definitely like to hear about what you've seen in clients and what your experience has been. But what post-traumatic growth feels like to me, it feels like a lot more stability, it feels like being rooted, it feels like being comfortable with the man that I am. It feels like not striving, it feels like not rushing, it feels like I'm not trying to outrun something behind me that's chasing me.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

That thing in the cave.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

That thing in the cave.

SPEAKER_05 55:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Um, it feels like being able to see in situations more clearly and to speak up more cogently, regardless of what people might think or feel about it. Now, again, not in a not in a mean way, not in a tactless way, you know, professional, compassionate, tactful, and direct. And even if that contradicts what some other people might think.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Um, it feels like a lot more joy. It feels a lot like a lot more peace.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

It feels like a lot more safety, it feels like more love, it feels like more happiness.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

It feels like being able to enjoy where I'm at and what I'm doing, and not being worried that some bad thing is gonna happen next. Like what's the next catastrophe around the corner?

SPEAKER_05 56:18

So, Nathan, I think what I hear you saying is Island boy.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Island boy, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:22

Island boy expanded. That part of you expanded. That's right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 56:27

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 56:28

Yeah, yeah. Nathan is in emergency management right now in his career, and he constantly, well, frequently has to deal with emergent situations. And we were having constant or frequent conversations around, like, he's like, I had to go talk them off the edge of the cliff, Sherry. And I'm like, Nathan, remember what their experiences are and where those responses are coming from. And he's like, Oh yeah. And then once he has that mindset, he's able to have more compassion for them. He's able to see them as a person and and and legitimately talk them off the edge of the cliff from their own perceptions of the what-ifs, right? Well, if we don't do that, then this might happen, right? And in his environment where he works, if they react, okay, this is a good segue. I just love the way God does this with us. I get so excited. Um, a segue from trauma symptoms um is you react more, right? Oh my gosh, the stories, and probably the stories my ex-husband could tell you, and probably the stories my kids could tell you of me reacting. And I have some vivid memories that I'm not proud of the reactions that I've had. So when you have trauma without healing, you're very reactive. So post-traumatic growth is responding versus reacting, right? And so, and Nathan has described like um that window of tolerance. We we can learn with post-traumatic growth and healing, we can learn the behaviors that are showing up or the emotions that are showing up that are taking us close to the edge of the window, either up or down, and we get to recognize that and go, okay, I need to implement some skills right here. I need to do some deep breathing, I need to go pray, I need to call my girlfriend. Um, girlfriend is number two to prayer. Um I'm like, Karen! Karen, do you have a minute? I need to talk. And she frequently does the same with me because you know, healing comes it most of the time. Karen doesn't have to say a word. I just need to tell her what's on my mind, and then and then it resolves itself, right? So post-traumatic growth is responding versus reacting. That is huge. Being more aware and mindful of the emotions, as I just described, when you're edging up towards that hyper response going up out of your window, or when you're edging down towards the bottom part of the hypo response, more the freeze response, like feeling dead, numb, um, fawning can even be in there. Um, just recognizing those emotions. And Nathan already touched on like taking responsibility for your actions, even though you guys, I have to say this really loud. We have to take responsibility. I didn't choose my childhood, I didn't choose my mom's behavior, my dad's behavior, I didn't choose any of that. But guess what? When you turn 18, guess who's responsible, Nathan? Right for dealing with all of that. Yeah, you can be really angry, you can be all the things towards whoever hurt you, but that's not gonna get you very far. You have to take ownership of your own healing. And I think my oldest daughter for sure has said to me, and and even my son-in-law, he said, Sherry, we're seeing you do the work. And you know, they just really acknowledge that, and that that's huge to me. Um, but whether somebody sees it or not, we have to do the work, even though we didn't choose the wounding that we encountered in life. We have to take responsibility when we turn 18, and that's um that can be a pretty big journey for people to be okay with taking responsibility for how that trauma has trickled down, right? Um, so that's important. Another part for post-traumatic growth is recognizing mistaken beliefs, recognizing the lies, recognizing the false identity. And as an abundant life coach, I have gotten trained with Jamie and Donna Winship. And man, if you guys don't know Jamie and Donna Winship, I would encourage you to go to YouTube, go find their YouTube page, um, and listen to them because they their that coaching training, identity, coaching training literally changed my life. Took me, I think God used that to take me out of being a trauma therapist because you guys, trauma therapy is it's really good, but the Lord wants me in my own personal life to focus on my own, to focus more on my healing and more on these days that are coming in you guys. Glory days are around the corner. I know that I know that I know God is on the precipice of pouring out his glory, and it's going to look like things you've never ever imagined or could never even dream up. It's going to be amazing. And so I just want to encourage you in that way to look for that because he's getting ready to pour that out on the earth. We've been living, we've just seen a lot of darkness, right? I've talked about that in the in the USA and in other countries, we've seen a lot of darkness, and God is ready to pour his glory out. So the identity coaching, um, you know, God revealed, I kind of knew like who I was in the spiritual realm, but God really put some names to my identities, and you've heard them, I think, once or twice in the podcast. But, you know, the identity I thought I would have forever. And I'm yeah, you know, I'm still doing that a little bit. Therapy and coaching, there's a fine line, right? Between therapy and coaching. I'm not diagnosing, I'm not assessing, I'm not doing that anymore. But I am trying to help clients, you know, gear towards the future more. Like I'm still helping you to understand why you are where you are. Um, and then I I want you to understand parts of self. And then I want to do, I want to focus on helping you find what your real identity is. And so some of the identities he's he keeps showing me things. I'm like, Lord, that's a lot. But one of my main identities that I thought I would have forever, and I still have it, it just looks a little different, right? Um, is joyful extirpator. And Nathan gave me the word extirpator, and that is someone who pulls the negative roots, the lies, the mistaken identities out. We go down to the very core of your being because they get so deeply rooted. Like I think both mine and Nathan's got deeply rooted in childhood because we both had chronic childhood trauma. So that's been one of my joys and privileges is to be a joyful extirpator. But the one I'm living out the most right now is a mother to the nations with 11 spiritual children, and man, do they bring me joy, so much joy and pleasure. Um, and that's the one that's just really most active in my life right now. And then now he started calling me a pioneer, and I'm like, okay, Lord, what am I pioneering? And I think, Nathan, you and I have talked about this. A little bit of what I think I'm pioneering is um bringing love in the healthiest sense into therapy and coaching, right? Into therapy and coaching. Because you guys, um, some of my spiritual kids are clients for sure. Some are not. I think that the the ones that aren't now outnumber the ones that are. But um, and you guys, so many people need the love of a mother. So whether you're a mother or not, whether you're a father or not, people need the love of mothers and the love of fathers so desperately. And I think, Nathan, I think I told you this. I think Marlene, the the guru, the somatic guru, that I'm starting to see, she's giving me the love of a mother. And I, yeah, and I because I cry, she just opens her mouth and I cry.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:25

I'm like, oh I'm familiar with that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:30

It's easier when it's you crying than you.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:32

It's for you.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:36

I coach clients all the time. It's okay. Release it, release the tears. It's okay. Yep, good job. Good job. Just sit there for a few minutes. And when it's me, when if Nathan is saying something that makes me cry, I'm not gonna tell you all the things that happen because there's some non-Christian things that happen, not like you know, yeah. Birds fly.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

They sure do. The bird watching around here is real good. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:07

Birds fly when he makes me cry, and I'm like, stop it, stop it right now. But anyway, I think Marlene is being a little bit of a mother to me. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Well, is this a good place for us to wrap up, Sherry?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

It is, or we could probably go another hour if you didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Or we could if you so we we wanted to share what post-traumatic growth looks like because we think that uh aspects of post-traumatic stress are very well discussed and well understood, and and rightfully so. It's really good that a lot of that stuff is coming to light and people are understanding it better. But we've both felt that there's a dearth of discussion on the post traumatic growth side and what that looks and feels like. So I think part of what we want to share with this is if you're in that that. Post-traumatic stress arena recognize that there is a different side to that. And it when we do the work, when we do the healing, when we utilize the right tools in the right way at the right time, the result is we become better, stronger, healthier, happier, absolutely, more rooted versions of ourselves. The goal is not to become someone else, it's to become the healthiest version of yourself. And so this is where we'll wrap up today. Sherry, do you wanna Nathan?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:36

How do I always forget to prepare for what I'm grateful for? But thankfully. Paul, that's Nortlap was for you, buddy. Um what while you were talking, I was like, think Sherry, think. What are you gonna say? I am extremely grateful for my biological children and my spiritual children. It is so cool to, you know, if you're a parent, you guys, you know, parenting infants and toddlers, it was amazing when I was doing it. It was fun. I loved watching my children grow up and into these independent, amazing women that you know have the world by the tail right now. I I I've loved watching that and been so proud, but parenting adult children is way more fun. It's kind of like it's kind of like when you hang out with your grandkids, right? You don't have to discipline them, you don't have to have all the rules because they're not your kids, they're your grandkids. It's kind of our job to like help them break the rules, but uh which my um my oldest daughter has done beautifully at letting me do that to some degree. Um, but anyway, um, parent, I'm I'm just grateful for my adult, my adult spiritual children. We get to do life together, and I didn't think about this until we were talking about the cave earlier. That's where um I think early on in the therapeutic relationship, you we you call me your battle buddy. And when we were talking about the cave earlier today, I was like, oh, we're battle buddies. I'm battle buddies with all of my spiritual children. I help them, I help encourage them, remind them who they are in the Lord. I pray for them, I prophesy over them, and they do the same thing for me, and it's such a beautiful thing. It is such a beautiful thing. I couldn't be more grateful for all of them. They're all like stellar, outstanding people, brilliant people, loving people. Um, I can be more grateful for them. Yeah, that's what I'm grateful for today.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:42

I am grateful for a couple of leaders specifically where I work. These are men of character, they're men of integrity. And one of them, I what I want to pay them as a compliment, but one of them shared this with me. He said, I would go to battle with you. And that's that is what I'm really grateful for about both of them. I would go to battle with both of them. These these men are, when you think of what you want in a leader, they exemplify all of it. They are willing to ask difficult questions, say difficult things, stop things when they're wrong. They are kind and gentle and loving and humble, and they will be ferocious as lions when the situation calls for it. And I am so thankful that I've had them in my life as mentors, as examples of what leadership looks like and as friends. I'm really grateful for that.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:48

That's really, really beautiful, Nathan. I love that. And you do have some amazing leaders around you.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:53

I thank God, yes, I really do.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:56

Amazing leaders who have noticed your gifts and your talents and who have brought you into places that your title wouldn't have taken you into.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

That's absolutely right. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:08

And I, yeah, I see God doing a lot of preparing and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

All right. And lastly, we just want to thank you again for spending some time with us. Your time is very valuable. We really hope that you've gotten something out of us that that it's helped, and that that what we share will continue to help. We really enjoy hanging out with you, and we hope you'll come and spend a little time with us soon on Divine and Most Unlikely.