Serving Military Members

In this episode we discuss:

1. Experience as a military spouse.
2. Deployment/Post-Deployment/Re-integration.
3. MFLACs
4. Challenges in hierarchies.
5. Basic Training.

If you feel triggered by any information in this podcast, or if you feel led to start your own therapeutic healing journey, please visit psychologytoday.com to find a mental health therapist in your area.

If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call 911 or 988 for support. You can also visit 988lifeline.org for more resources, and information.

Remember.....YOU MATTER!

To schedule a discovery session with Sherri, please go to Elevatetoabundantlife.com. 

The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome back to Divine and Most Unlikely. You're spending some time with us, Sherry Conran and Nathan. Today, we want to talk about a topic that is near and dear to Sherry's heart, and she's got a lot of experience with this. But in to sum it, it's a lot about the experience people can have in the military, and then some of the impacts those experiences can have, and how those can manifest and modify the life that they live outside of the military.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Absolutely. Yeah. A lot of things come into play for those who serve our country and the families.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

The families, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

The family members and the children as well serve our country. People sometimes forget that, that um it's not just about the veteran or the active duty military member, but it's about their family and their children as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Absolutely. It's very much a shared sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yes, a shared sacrifice. That's a beautiful way to put it, Nathan. And I would say these people are near and dear to your heart, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Yeah, they they certainly are. I I have learned so much from some of the guys that I know that have been in the military. I've learned a lot of leadership lessons, you know, from people with military experience who have authored that and then passed those lessons along. Absolutely. And, you know, you and I have talked about the fact that I'm very patriotic. I love this country. And no one who loves this country can love the country without also recognizing that that the country, the nation that we have today, it wasn't given to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

We had to build it, and that was has been and will probably forever be on the sacrifices of brave men and women who stand up and fight and sacrifice, you know, years of their lives.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Um their healthy bodies, limbs, and in some cases, their lives for the freedom that we get to enjoy. So it's very much near and dear to my heart as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Absolutely. I wish more people, Nathan, understood that um to the degree that you understand it, because you are very, as a historian, you're very, very appreciative of how this country came into being. And um, yeah, you know, I say all the time about you, you have a lot of government in you. And and it and it's true because of your love for the country and and being a historian and and reading, you know, all the literature that you've read. I love yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

So, where where's a good place that you think you'd like to start with this particular topic? Because this is a big one and it's weighty. There's a lot to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

It is a big one. It is a big one. I think I'm gonna start. It's so funny, you guys, because so many things in my mind are separated that sometimes I'm like, you know, I need to connect the dots. When he said, Sherry, you have a lot of experience. I thought, yeah, you know, 10 years of experience of working with the military, but I discounted. I discounted. So I was married for 28 years, and um my husband, my second husband was in the Navy. Um, but he had about 10 years already in the Navy when we got married, and so I think I experienced 15 years of him being in the military, and then 10 years, so that's another 25. So yeah, Nathan, it is a lot of experience, more than I sometimes remember or think about, I think. Um, so I I think I want to talk about a little bit of our life as a military family and being a military wife.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

And this was um, yes, it was absolutely before I became a therapist because I didn't become a therapist until my late 30s, and we got married when I believe I was 26, so quite a while. Um that I was a military wife before a therapist, but uh military families go through so many things. Now he didn't have he was never deployed during combat. And remind me to talk about that later because so many service members have what I would call false guilt about about not being deployed during combat.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Um and I think another important point that you just made is a misconception that people may not understand, especially because now it's such a small percentage of people in our nation that serve in the military, but you can get deployed in a non-combat role or for a non-combat reason.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

Absolutely, absolutely you can. Um, and he did he did get deployed several times. He went on many um short missions, 30-day missions, 45-day missions. I think he only went on, if I can remember correctly, maybe there were two six-month deployment missions, but I know he did one that I can remember. And uh families just go through so, so much. That's when my kids were younger. Um my daughter was uh my oldest daughter was definitely in elementary school. My youngest was like starting in kindergarten, first grade, you know, early elementary school. And my daughter, my oldest was probably actually going more into middle school, but a little bit of both throughout those years. But being a single, kind of a single, because we go from as military wives, we literally go from being a married, um, being married to being single but married. You know what I mean? Yeah, because when someone does go on a deployment, and when the service member does go on a deployment, the spouse that stays behind does it all, pays the bills, takes care of anything that breaks down, raises the kids, all the things we do it all, we do it all. And a single moms again, my hat's off to you for doing it all. And I did as a single mom twice. I I I did it all. Well, second time my kids were raised, but um definitely I did it as a single parent the first time. So that's a lot to be both the mom and the dad. And when you're married, you're not used to that, you're not used to doing both roles, and I remember so clearly, Nathan, because there was a day. Um, I'm not like super, super good with money right now, but way better than I've ever been with managing money and handling money. But there was a day when I was not good at it, and I think that I think my husband had a lot, my ex-husband had a lot of paranoia about leaving the checkbook in my hands. But I would be proud of myself when he would deploy and I would manage the money well, and then he would come back and he would want all of his responsibilities back. Oh yeah, and I wouldn't want to give them back, yeah, even though, even though it was a lot for one person, I was like, hey, I'm doing good with managing the money. And he was like, Oh no, I'm taking that role back on again, I'm taking this role back on again. And I think part of me not wanting to surrender that was like, hey, I don't want to go through that transition again.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

About having to give it back to you and then take it back and give it back to you and take it back, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, those dynamics are, and it's not just with money, you're talking about with one thing, yeah, but there's a bunch of other things that go along with that.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, absolutely. And I think I might have talked about this a little bit in another podcast, but man, every time he would go out to sea for even if it was 30 days, something would break in the house. Something would break. One time the hot water heater, now thankfully it was in the garage, but it broke and the garage got flooded with water. But what did I know about getting a new hot water heater? You know, yeah, and really gonna date myself. But we had a waterbed back in the day, and the waterbed sprung a leak and flooded the bedroom, you know, and so I had to deal with that. And yeah, just having to deal with things that weren't in my wheelhouse to deal with, right? But I always found a way through. I think a car broke down once, you know, and of course things come up with the kids, and you know, like I said, just becoming a single person while you're married, yeah, you know, learning how to do life alone while they're deployed, right? Developing a new routine, a different structure, yeah, and one that doesn't stay the same because again, when he would come home, we'd be a family again. And and you guys, I as a when I did work those last 10 years as a military family life counselor, I counseled a lot of people around um the reintegration process, honestly, the pre-deployment, post-deployment process. Um, and it's really difficult for the spouse who stays home and manages everything to transition back. And it can be hard for the spouse coming back from deployment. Now, my ex-husband, like I said, the max that he was gone was six months, but for the army, he was in the navy, for the army, army gets deployed way longer. Yeah, I at uh at an advance, a writing advance I just attended, I met someone in the army. He was getting deployed to Germany, has a family, has kids, and he was getting deployed by himself. This family wasn't joining him, and he's just like, I was like, oh man, that can be so hard. He's like, it's just what we know. It's what we know, we're used to it, right? And that was not a wartime situation that he's was getting deployed there for. So yeah, so that can happen. Families often live apart even for long periods of time, right, in the military. But that was something I helped families deal with a lot was um reintegration. I did both, like I said, but reintegration because that was they're both hard. Pre-getting people ready to for deployment, getting families ready, that's hard. And then reintegration is also hard. Because when you are deployed as an army, as a soldier, in the army, as a soldier, that is usually a minimum of 12 to 18 months, sometimes 24 months. And I did I did work with the military during both wars, the Iraq war and the Afghan, Afghanistan War. And you you guys, soldiers came back changed, they came back different, they did not come back the same person.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

How could you not?

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Right?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

How could you not?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

There's a there's a person I respect a lot, and I I want to give him credit on this. His name is Andy Stump. But one of the things he says a lot of really insightful things, but one of them that has always stuck with me is if you touch war, war's gonna touch you back.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Oh, that's powerful. That's a powerful phrase. Yeah. So a lot of soldiers come back changed, and they try, they come to reintegrate, they have expectations. In our last podcast, we talked about expectations. They have expectations about about how things are gonna look. The spouse that stayed home has expectations, and there are males that stay home because lots of females are in the military. Um, so it can it works both ways, whether the the husband or the wife was the one at home. Um, that reintegration process is difficult, you know. Um, I you might remember the name of this movie. I don't remember this, but the movie itself stood out to me. It was about soldiers who came back and they were deployed during wartime, and they came back after the war after losing battle buddies, after seeing so much death and destruction, so many traumatic encounters that they had. And then they had to come back. Like when you're first of all, when you're on a deployment, especially during a war time, you are the authority in the country. Our military was the authority. They didn't have to follow street laws, like the you know, stop signs, red lights. They they they were the king of the road during deployment, and to come back to America where you're not the king of the road, right? That is a big, that's a big, big transition. Um, but the name, okay. I can't maybe you'll know the name of the movie, but it was, I think, three buddies that had come back from deployment, and and this is something now I'm I worked mostly with the army, but I would think this would be all the branches, but in the army, they became like family, right? They became like family during a deployment. Now you might know the terminology for this, like their unit would get deployed, and then sometimes people would get attached, maybe it's just attached to their unit, and the people who got attached didn't necessarily know the unit that was getting deployed. And so the attachment people had to get a bond, develop a bond with the people they got deployed with because they weren't always in that same unit and doing all the same training and hanging out. But anyway, that's a whole that's a whole other thing. But soldiers became like families, and so post-deployment, they really stuck together, yeah, right, to help each other through the reintegration process. Um, but I went to see this movie, and it was three soldiers who came home and they were uh trying to deal with getting settled back into the country and into their everyday lives. And one of the scenes that I will never forget, because okay, let me say the scene first, and maybe maybe you'll know the name of the movie. The guy was standing in a grocery store and he was in the cereal aisle. I knew it would hit you right away. He was in the cereal aisle and he got overwhelmed in the cereal aisle because when you're in the military, food is not something you think about. You are eating a lot of MREs, uh, which is uh a pre-packaged meal ready to eat. Meal ready to eat. I never I think I was offered one many times, and I was like, no, thank you. Um, because I've just heard lots of stories about those. Um and so you don't have to plan what you're gonna eat when you're in the military, and guess what else? What you don't have to plan what you're wearing, what you're wearing. I'll never forget when my ex-husband retired and he had to start looking in his closet. What am I gonna put on today? Right? Um, and you know what he did after he retired from the Navy?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

What's that?

SPEAKER_00 14:47

And this happens so often, they they go to another uniform.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yes, right, absolutely right.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah, he went to the uniform of a postal worker, and many um people in the military go to be a police officer, paramedic, um other folks who wear uniforms, right? So, anyway, just that guy, tell me the name of the movie, the guy standing in the serial. I don't remember the name. Oh, I thought it came to you, okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

No, but uh the scene, I remember the scene because what that overwhelm looked like is he was standing in the serial aisle, looking at the aisle in front of him, and the camera does a wide angle so you can see the whole of these different boxes, a bunch of different colors, and he's just standing there and he just looks at him. He's frozen because how how am I supposed to choose from all of these different you know options?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Yeah, so he's trying to get used to driving the American way again, he's trying to get used to maybe wearing civilian clothes again, he's trying to get used to meal planning, buying groceries again. Hello, they don't have to buy groceries either. So he's trying to, which reintegration encompasses and identity is a part of that too, because you mentioned uniform.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Yeah, well, when you in in the military, when you look at someone, yeah, their uniform tells you about them. Yes, now you need to know how to decode it, but yeah, but in the military, you know the language. So you see things like rank, yeah, and you might see a unit patch, yeah, and you might see some other sort of insignia that tells you what sort of job that person does. And depending on the uniform, maybe there are awards on it.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Absolutely, absolutely. It is decoding. I love that word, Nathan. There's a lot of decoding. When I first became a military family life counselor, um we did a lot of they did some training with us, and I I still have the book somewhere. It's a funny book to the book, was about all the acronyms because you guys, the military loves their acronyms, and they have an acronym for every single thing. And they even they they even acronymed acronym, do you like that? They even put an acronym to our title. So we were Military Family Life Counselors, and they added an A to make it because you can't you can't do an acronym with just those words, it doesn't work. They added an A. We were MFLAX. I'm like, we don't have an A in our name. Um, so anyway, I thought that was really funny. MFLAX was what we were called. Uh reminds me of the the who is that AFLAC. Yeah. Yep, that reminds me of that for sure. Um, so yeah, whether it's like with with deployment, with post-employment and reintegration, so so difficult to just get back into the groove of things and and and taking having conversations with their spouse, who's gonna do what now, how that's gonna go. And and many, many times, you guys, for the kids, the kids are hesitant because mom or dad's been gone for a while. And oh, that is crushing because for the parent that's been deployed, that is crushing to them because they're so excited and anxious to see their children, and their children can become a little hesitant, depending on the age, you know. Um, when when the kids are like infants and toddlers, man, it takes them, it's gonna take a minute for the child to get used to mom or dad being back. And so those things are just like soul crushing to watch because here they are as um soldiers. I'm gonna speak about the army because that's who I worked with most. And by the way, you don't want to call a Marine a soldier.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

No, no, there are soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, coast guardsmen, and now Space Force.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yep, yep. And you don't want to call an Air Force member a soldier. You will get your butt handed to you on a platter for that, and you know what else, Nathan? What's that? You do not want to call someone who's enlisted sir or ma'am. Do you know what the response is?

SPEAKER_02 18:53

I'm not a sir, I work for a living.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

That's right. I'm not a sir, I work for a living. In the beginning, because I didn't know that. I didn't know that because my ex-husband was enlisted, so I didn't know that, but I learned that real fast when I became a military family life counselor, that you don't call someone who is enlisted, um, sir or ma'am. They that's an offense to them. And they say I work for a living because you know, when you are um an officer in the military, you're a you're a leader and you're you're typically telling other people what to do. You always, just like in the real world, you always have someone telling you what to do, right? Because if you are a, let me see if I can remember all the things. If you're a major, you're gonna have a colonel telling you what to do. If you're a colonel, does it go to general? Yeah, you're gonna have a general telling you what to do, right? And then there's there's a one-star general, two-star general, three-star generals, four-star generals. So there's a there's always there's a ranking order, just like there is in life. And I have to gently say this anytime there's a hierarchy, there can be abuse, right? Yeah, and sadly, in my 10 years as a military family life counselor, I encountered some abuse, and that was tough, that was really tough. But because of the abuse I think present in my own life, I'm quite an advocate for justice, right? I think you are as well, Nathan. So I'm quite an advocate for justice. So when I would run into abuse, um I had to call it what it was, and thank goodness the higher-ups in that system of hierarchy. I worked for the last two years out at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri, and I I I cherish, I totally cherish those two years working. If you can imagine, how old was I then? I was 50, so 52 when I got divorced. So I think I was, is that possible? 53 and 54, maybe 55 while I worked there. And it was hilarious, Nathan, because you know, I'm a colorful woman. I wear colorful, colorful clothes. At that time, I had a convertible Volkswagen at a convertible Volkswagen Beetle. And people just knew when they saw that car, like, oh, Sherry's over at this company or Sherry's over at this battalion or this whatever. And uh, yeah, the chaplains, the chaplains would tell the soldiers, just look for this real this lady wearing really bright, colorful clothes, and she'll help you. She'll help you through whatever you're going through, you know. So those were the those were just some of my most fun times because because well, I also worked at Scott Air Force Base before that, but a training base is just different than a non training base. Now I'm sure some training took place for sure. Training, my goodness, the poor military men, they are overtrained. This the having to watch all Of the PowerPoints and all the things. I, you know, Nathan knows my personality really well. I like to have fun. So when I would be asked to do a presentation for the army, I now this, yeah, I think it might have been for the army. This was at um, I think this was at more sometimes. I did it for pre-deployments, but I definitely did it a lot for post-deployments. I would play Family Feud. I would use my lipstick. I would use my lipstick as a buzzer. And so whoever grabbed the lipstick first got to answer the question. And it was just so much fun. And then I would buy treats for the service members for you know whoever won, whoever got a question right. So I tried to make my trainings fun and and and they were, they were a lot of fun. Because you know what? Those service members and family members, mostly service members, I would say, both for pre-deployment and post-deployment, kind of rolled their eyes, right? Because they they didn't want to sit through another thing, especially having to come back during reintegration. One time, and Nathan, so awkward. We would usually hold these reintegration events at hotels. And for one time, I don't know how often I did this, but they wanted us, and different companies, different battalions have different, you know, requests from military family life counselors, but they wanted us to meet with each service member right after they got off the plane, just to check and make sure their mental health was good. So they had to meet with us before they could go be with their family. And I felt really bad for that. And in a hotel room, you guys, in a hotel room. Now they had the wherewithal to lift the beds, you know, to disassemble the beds. But you want to talk about awkward to meet with mostly men, some women, in a hotel room and asking them about their mental health. I would have wanted to smack me too, and I think many of them did. And and knowing that you're the hurdle that's keeping I was the hurdle that was keeping them from their loved ones and keeping them from putting their you know feet solidly back into their community, into their families, and that was not a good position to be in. And I I don't think that was a good idea either, because they're not gonna be honest with you, they weren't honest, they're not gonna say, Yeah, I've been feeling really depressed, or I've been feeling really anxious about coming back home. And I think most of them didn't, you know, they didn't say that because they just wanted to be done. So anyway, those were some interesting events. Um, but I had probably the most fun at Fort Leonard Wood because I got to go and do everything with them. I got to go out to the shooting range with them. Now I I was sitting, they had like uh kind of like baseball seating, like baseball stands. I don't know what you call that. Bleachers. Bleachers, thank you, Nathan. Um, young brain, old brain, young brain, old brain. They had all of the soldiers in training. Um, and it was so interesting, you guys, because they were totally kids. Oh my word, they were mostly kids, 18, 19 years old. And they'd have them in bleachers while they're getting prepared to shoot their guns, and their guns were loaded. And I was like, Sherry, do you really want to be this close to the kids that are have loaded weapons that don't know how to shoot the weapons? And so I kind of made sure to just kind of put myself a little back a little bit. Um, because accidents have definitely happened, but so much fun getting to do all of their trainings with them. I was I was there when they were learning to shoot weapons. I was there when they had to go through the chemical assault to get gassed. Oh my gosh, I felt ugh, talk about the mama heart hurting. I felt so bad they would come out drooling and their eyes were burning and snot was everywhere. And I'd be like, it's okay, we're gonna get over it, but it's gonna, it's not gonna last long. I had to go through the tear gas training with them. Holy cow, that was hard to watch, Nathan. Because they had to experience the things because they were military police in training. And I'm sure police officers I know have to do the same thing, yeah, like with stun guns and with the gas getting sprayed on them because they need to know what they're doing to people. They'll be less ready to do that to people if they've had their own experiences. But I remember with the with the gas, with them getting sprayed with the gas. Um, I would walk with them, I'd walk laps with them, and I'd try to get them to visualize. Think about being at the ocean, you're at a different place, and just think about all the beauty and all the things. And some of them love that, and some of them I think walked away, walked away from me. Um, but yeah, I got to do, I got to watch them go through their um training courses outside, like scaling the big walls and coming down the big walls and stuff. Um yeah, one day one of the commanders was like, Sherry, you gonna join the army? I was like, sir, you know, you know that is not gonna happen. I would never pass the PT test. I got to go to, that's another thing. I got to go encourage them when they were getting ready, like at five or I mean ungodly hours, 5 a.m., 6 a.m. It probably even earlier than that to do their PT test. And they would have a lot of anxiety about passing or failing. And then one of the most memorable things that I got to do out at Fort Leonard Wood was when they when they finished basic training and they crossed over to AIT, they had the coolest ceremony, Nathan, of um making that transition, celebrating that transition. That happened at midnight, and I loved, I just loved going to all of these events and supporting them because it was it was I don't know, just so much fun to encourage them and and help them get through. I think it was nine weeks of no, maybe 18. Because I think AI, I think basic was nine and AIT was nine. So 18 weeks. And kids had parents dying, kids had lots of conflict at home. Um, they go through a lot, you guys, to get ready to be to serve our country. They go through a lot, they don't just sacrifice during a deployment or during different things, they sacrifice themselves at basic training and at AIT. Like that's a heavy commitment, like dealing with drill sergeants and all the things. Um, but one of those most rewarding ceremonies was that transition time from basic training to AIT. They would like the drill sergeants, and it was so cool because the drill sergeants gave them a lot of kudos for making that uh for accomplishing all that they did during their basic training. And I loved watching that because drill sergeants, they're they're they're not a counselor's friend, you know. Some of them loved me and some of them did not care for me. Um, because you know, I'm I'm the I was the feelings lady. I helped all the uh yeah. Did you get a nickname while you were there? I oh are you thinking about a story I told you?

SPEAKER_02 29:18

I'm thinking about, you know, Sherry, Sherry Godmother.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Oh yes, I did. You are thinking about a story I told you. One these you guys, I would work with groups of of trainees. I finally learned because I was like, all of them had the same problem. They missed home, they didn't like their drill sergeant, they didn't like the loss of privacy, they didn't like their battle buddy, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't, right? Um, and sadly, sadly, I love the military, I love our country, but sadly recruiters are put under a lot of pressure to recruit soldiers or service members, and they lie. They tell the they tell the person enlisting to lie. And I've seen them and experienced, oh man, more than a handful, of people of service members who were on um psychotropic meds, and they said, Hey, you can't be on meds, psychotropic meds to come in, but as soon as you get through all your training, you can go back on them after that. Like, what? What? Oh, I got so angry because there was a kid that had bipolar, a diagnosis of bipolar. Yep. Yep, and they got him off his medicine, and that kid, oh my goodness, I was so I don't know, I had a lot of compassion for him because he was working so hard. I think he was like two or three weeks from being totally done, and he just couldn't tolerate it anymore. He couldn't tolerate it, and he had to drop out, and I, yeah, that's just number one, it's not okay to tell somebody to get off of serious meds. Those meds for a bipolar, you guys, are some of the most serious mental health meds. I wouldn't even diagnose, I think I diagnosed one person with bipolar in my 25-year career because it's a serious diagnosis and it's a serious medication. So I I wasn't an expert at that, so I didn't want to really touch that area, so I pretty much didn't for my career. So I felt bad for that young man. But, you know, I just tried to encourage him that he has a bright future ahead of him, even though it may not involve the military, things like that. But if you happen to be listening and you are a recruiter, please don't do that. Please don't do that. And my my friend had a son enlist recently, he just graduated, and she he wanted to join the Army National Guard, and she went with him, and the recruiter in front of her, in front of her, told him to lie about this, lie about that, lie about this. That would not have sat well with this mama. This mama could not have been quiet during that during that moment. This mama would have said a few things. Okay, but anyway, I want to get back to the ceremony that happens after um basic training. So the the the drill sergeants and the let me see if I can remember this title. Who's in charge of the drill sergeants? Do you know that title?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I think first sergeant.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

First sergeant. Okay. The first sergeants would get everybody really with the whole company would get so into this. It was so fun to watch. Um, they would build a huge bonfire, huge bonfire. And the soldiers had to do, before they could come to the bonfire, they had to do an obstacle course. It was at midnight. It it there were guns going off over them, and they had to army crawl through the obstacle course to get to get through the obstacle course in order to go across the street to the big bonfire. So it was, and I got to watch through um night binoculars. Um, I walk I got to watch them crawl. It was really cool. And I I think it was it was probably a company commander one day that let that walked that course with me. So that was pretty cool too, to get to to get to experience that in that way. But then then after they finished the the obstacle course and that part of the training, they would walk across the street, and oh, you could just feel the honor and the reverence that the commanders and even you guys, um the brigade commander would attend this, the chaplain would attend this. Um, it was a it was a pretty big event. And um they said they said great things about all all of the you know, all the soldiers that made it to the AIT portion, and then everybody went around and shook all of the soldiers' hands. And it was just really cool. It was just a really, really cool moment to witness. So I um in my time at Fort Leonard Wood, I got to experience the only thing I got to experience a lot of things, but the only thing they wouldn't let me experience, they wouldn't let me on to the bomb range. They had really big restrictions about that. Um, if I went anywhere near that building, they'd be like, ma'am, ma'am, no, no, ma'am, no, ma'am, you know. Um, and I did therapy nation nation. I did therapy, Nathan, in some of the most bizarre places. I did therapy at the gun range. I did therapy while they were out in the woods doing their drills and stuff out in the woods. I got two flat tires while I work there, by the way, from going out in the woods. But anytime here comes that colorful lady in the in the convertible Volkswagen. Some people would like to look away and not acknowledge the feelings lady, and other people are like, oh yay, she's here. Yeah, yeah. Did I did I say the part about fairy godmother? I did, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

The sherry godmother. The sherry godmother.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Well, they call me the fairy godmother. These this young group of kids call me the fairy godmother.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

So that was a fun time.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Um what were some of the common issues that you had to help people deal with in oh yeah. Yeah, so and I you talked about post-deployment, and I want to ask about two separate ways because there's a post-deployment reintegration from a non-combat deployment, yeah, yeah, and then post-deployment reintegration from combat. Those are two different things. But what are some of the common things that you had to help people work through in both of those arenas?

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Yep. So they didn't, I did not do a lot of post-deployment reintegration that were not non-combative.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I the reintegrations I worked in were from the Iraq war and the Afghanistan War.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

So they were pretty intense. They were pretty intense things.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

So I didn't do any because they don't hold reintegrations, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

I at least to my to my knowledge, uh, they didn't do that. Um, so the reintegrations I did were always about coming back from the war zone. Um and some of those people, Kuwait used to be a really safe place. I do think some that were deployed during the time of war were were deployed um in Kuwait. And that was like a considered a non-combative zone. Um, but I don't think that's true today. I don't think it's I don't think it's safe any longer today. Um, but yeah, yeah, most of the work I did with deploy with uh deployment reintegration was during times of combat. So very heavy, very heavy things.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

What were the issues that you saw and how did you help people work through that?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Yeah, yeah. Um very like very slowly. I did not get to so number one, we I broke all the rules, Nathan. Can you imagine that? We were not supposed to do counseling, like we weren't supposed to do trauma counseling, we weren't supposed to do really intense counseling, and I and I I did do some trauma counseling in the fact that I just I brought God into it whenever I could, you know. I couldn't do I didn't even, I was I wasn't even using EMDR during that time in my career, so obviously couldn't do EMDR and that kind of stuff, but um number one, because all of the companies, I think I had a total, I'm gonna say a total of 15 to 17 companies. Now, in those companies, there were anywhere, I'm gonna guess from 250 to 300, maybe in the companies. Um, no, those were just trainees though that I worked with. So when when you're talking about issues, well, okay, even though I was working with trainees, and this is this, these are some stories I do want to tell. Even though I was working with trainees, I was working with drill sergeants who'd been deployed, company commanders who'd been deployed, brigade commanders who had been deployed. Um and and one time, no, not not on let's see, how can I say this without someone really high up, like the someone really high up called me. And you know my trauma history, Nathan. I was like, oh no, what did I do? I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. Someone really high up called me, and I was like, ma'am, can I ask why you want to see me? And they were like, I want to make an appointment.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah. So not what you were expecting.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Not what I was expecting. Thankfully, I wasn't in any kind of trouble. Um, so yeah, it doesn't matter what your rank is or all of those things. Everybody in the military is obviously just human. And whether it's marital distress or whether it's parenting distress or distress from deployments and how that's impacted you, right? But some of the things that really stood out. So, as a military family life counselor, I mean, there were so many cool things about this job. Now, sadly, there were counselors that took advantage of this job because we did not have on-site management. No one knew when we clocked in or we clocked out, we just logged our hours and and I only I don't know if I'm gonna remember these numbers. I think I only had to have like seven contacts for the day. So some of these counselors would go sit in Starbucks and say hi to seven people and go home. Wow. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which is sad. You know, whenever I think there's a government type of employment, I think that happens a lot with government. Now we were contracted by the government, but I think that happens a lot. But not this girl. This girl loved going in the trenches and gun range and in the woods and all the places. Um, so what we did was we did what was called walk-around counseling. Sometimes people would make appointments with me, but not very often. So I just went, I walked all over that base, I went everywhere and had conversations. And one day it was a little bit before lunch. I'll never forget this as long as I live. It was a little bit before lunch, and I walked into somebody's office at one of the battalion headquarters office, and I just was trying to kill, honestly, I was trying to kill a little bit of time before I went to lunch. And I just sat down and said, Hey, how's it going? You know, I'm I'm Sherry, you know, who are you? All the things, and Nathan. Wow. This person was deployed during um a time of war, and one of his battle buddies um just had a psychological breakdown and he ended up murdering like three to five of his battle buddies. Wow, yeah, he just totally lost it. He snapped. Yeah, he snapped, and I was so taken aback because it's not what I expected to hear. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, I'm so sad to hear that. Have you ever gotten any support around that? Have you ever talked to talked to a therapist? Have you done any trauma therapy? And the guy was like, Nope. He's like, Me and my battle buddies, and that he probably experienced that. I'm gonna guess, like I'm making it up, but five or six years ago. And when I say they become like family, they become like family, right? Like you and I are battle buddies, and we be we have become family. Um they totally become black family. The people they deploy with became like family, and he was still connected to the battle buddies that had experienced that horrific situation, and he said, I think I get all I need from my battle buddies, right? Yeah, and so when when Nathan and I talked to you guys about the importance of community, that's a great example of it. Because when you go through something, anything, and with with with other people, those people know that they know that they know, right? They can come talk to me about that, but I haven't experienced that, right? And so when you're talking to people who've been through the same thing that you've been through, there's a lot of power, so much power to that. But oh, that was heartbreaking to me. Heartbreaking. Now, another situation that I'll also never forget. I was in a vehicle, an area where they worked on their army vehicles, and I was, they were all working on, you know, the equipment and machines, and I was sitting talking. I don't know who I was talking to, maybe a chaplain, but maybe I don't know who. So I see a service member out of the corner of my eye. I'm looking straight ahead, and I see a service member out of the corner of my eye coming from the right hand side, and he's just slowly walking towards me. And as he got close to me, he never stopped, Nathan. He never stopped. But as he got close to me, he slowed way down. And he's he just and I'm again paraphrasing, I don't remember his exact words, but I remember him saying, I'm really angry because while I was deployed, my wife had a miscarriage, and I was not allowed to come home with her.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

So while he kind of did a horseshoe right in front of me, he said those things and he just kept walking.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

And also very heartbreaking, right? And um, I guess he just needed to say it, you know, say it to somebody.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Um, but that was very, that was very sad to me. And like I said, I had other soldiers during that time at Fort Leonard Wood that had parents that were close to death, and they they had to choose, do I want to go home to be with them in their last days, or do I want to finish my training?

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

Right, because when you're in it, you're in it. And when you've crossed all these thresholds of training, um, you've crossed them. And if you leave for a family emergency, they're gonna give you leave for that. But I I don't remember if they had to start completely over or what. But you're gonna if you no matter what, if you leave and come back, you're likely to be in a different company. You gotta learn battle buddies all over again, right? Yeah, and so um they had to make a decision to go be with their loved one or to stay stay in training, and a good handful of them stayed in training, and I helped them walk through that. Um, and there was one young person that I walked with, I don't remember her name, but I'll never forget her circumstances either. She lost a sibling, um, I think shortly before coming to training, and she had talk about grief as we did in our last episode. She had a ton of grief, and so I helped her work through that grief.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

You, when you were saying that, something just came into my mind, and and yeah, I don't know if you want to address it now or not, but you and I have talked, and one of the things that you've mentioned is that you've noticed that many times, not all the time, but many times, there are factors that lead people to select military service.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

Yes. Uh yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Is that I mean, we don't we don't have to discuss.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Oh no, no, we can, we can, because that's a really good point. Okay. It's a really, really, really good point. Um, because I've talked to service members too about this often. Okay, so for for those of us who grow up in trauma and unstable families, not solid, not solidly based families, um, we're gonna go looking for that. Whether we and usually unconsciously, right? But like we've talked about trauma attracts trauma, right? When you are like for me, came from a domestic violent family, an alcoholic family, I was attracted to trauma and at a very unconscious.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Nathan's laughing at my flabbergasted sound of yeah, done it myself. Like a horse. A horse just goes probably because he doesn't have any words, so he just has to, you know. Anyways, um, yeah, like trauma is attracted to trauma. Nathan, you often make me lose my ability to speak. Um, when service members have trauma, they're like us, they're attracted to trauma. So maybe they don't marry someone with trauma, but you guys, the military is based in trauma. There's just, I don't know. It's a traumatic environment, you guys. Um joining and being yelled at by drill sergeants for nine weeks, and then going through other intensive training for nine weeks. Uh yeah, I think I'm not gonna anyway, I won't go there, but um a lot of intense things happen, and uh, drill sergeants can be traumatic, commanders can can bring trauma. I mean, all the things, right? So trauma tracks trauma in that sense, right? It's a it's a they are a family, the military is a family, and I was astonished. I didn't know to the degree, so like when I was married to my ex-husband who was in the navy, I don't think I encountered much of this, probably because we were a a couple, we were married. Now, I uh you know he probably as a single as a single service member, I was trying to think what do they call Navy? I think just service members.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

You mean like the enlisted guys, sailors?

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah, sailors. Hello, Sherry. It's been a hot minute, Nathan. Um, I do remember his little sailor uniform, though. I was like, oh my gosh, it was so cute with a white hat. And it had to be so crisp. And Nathan, you would have loved this. When we first got married, I don't know who I thought I was, but I I was that girl who grew up in trauma and had a couple things to tell men. Uh, that's who I was. I I don't remember what the situation was, but when I first married him and he had to do all these different things, I was like, who is your boss? I want to have a word with him.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Like, where is your boss? And he was like, Oh, hell no.

SPEAKER_02 48:31

That's not going to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

I didn't have a clue. I knew nothing about the military when we first got married. I just knew he had to do a lot of things that I didn't really want him to do or I didn't want to do. And and I quickly learned we had no power over that. Um, but yes, trauma attracts trauma. So the military is a family. Um, and there's a lot because it does attract people with a history of trauma, it's a pretty broken system. And anytime I think anytime there's a hierarchy, Nathan, like I said earlier, there's open for abuse to happen, right? Whether it's uh enlisted with a with a officer, they're from enlisted to officer, abuse can happen. Men and women, abuse can happen, right? Um, there was an incident, I won't go into too much, too many details, but I had a drill sergeant. So I was working with a company, and I when you work with a company and you, you know, I I would have a group of anywhere from 10 to 15 people in a company, and sometimes I would work with definitely see them individually as well, but I kept hearing it the same theme, the same theme in this company with a certain situation, and I was like, oh boy, this person is grooming them for sexual abuse. Yep. And I went to the chaplain, told the chaplain, you know, like what do I do with this? And the chaplain was like, you need to report it. Ugh. It was that was it was hard, it was really hard. But I'm really glad I did because there was it was it was definitely a thing. And I guess the only regret I had is that I didn't go to the company commander, I went straight, I went straight to the battalion commander because he and I I had a good relationship with all my battalion commanders, and so I don't know. I just went straight to the battalion commander, and I think the company commander was not happy about that, but immediate action. I mean, the brigade commander got involved because it was a very serious thing, and that person lost their job. And the only thing I was told is that that person was going through a lot of things, and I was like, Well, I have no doubt they were going through a lot of things, and that is not okay. The behavior that they chose to help deal with the things they were going through was not okay. And I had heard stories as a military family life counselor. I hung out with the chaplains a lot, and um chaplains are someone who you they have a hundred percent confidentiality, a hundred percent therapists almost a hundred percent. If you tell a therapist you're suicidal or homicidal, we can't tell anybody unless you tell me, like Nathan, if you were homicidal, you came in, you said, Hey, sure, I have a plan. I'm gonna go take that dude out, got the weapon, got the plan, got all the things, and you can't stop me. Then I can turn you in to the authorities, or if you come in, and this happened to me a handful of times, and awkward, so awkward. And Nathan, I did you ever get a call as a paramedic, like from a therapist with someone who was suicidal?

SPEAKER_02 51:39

I don't think I ever got a call from a therapist, but I do remember getting calls from like people's friends who w wanted us go do a welfare check because the person expressed suicidal thoughts. I don't even remember if we ever got called to like a clinic or anything like that for a like for a physician who was with a patient.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Yeah, yeah. I had to do that, I think at least twice as a therapist. So if someone comes in and says, I'm feeling suicidal, I've got the weapon at home, this is when I'm gonna do it, this is how I'm gonna do it. Even if it's not a weapon, if they have plans to jump off a bridge or something and they refuse to be safe, then I have to call and report them too. And twice an ambulance came to the clinic. And paramedics, did you get trained on that?

SPEAKER_02 52:26

Yeah, we got a pretty decent block on psychological emergencies now.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Certainly not as much as someone like you, but I know, but I mean, did you get trained that a therapist might call you?

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Uh I don't think that I I don't remember ever hearing that specifically. Um, but we are we are mandatory reporters too. And so I think we kind of understood that in that role, other people who are mandatory reporters may be reporting the same or similar.

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Gotcha. Well, both times they were like, when they responded, they were like, yeah. And you're you're calling us because I don't know. Yeah. I didn't say dude back then.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

They were like, dude, I don't know what to do with this. Like, they're there's no weapon present, they're they're they haven't harmed themselves. We we don't have any power. If they the client would tell them, you know, the client would tell them that they were safe, um, and nothing happened. But as a therapist, I was like, well, I checked the box, I did what I did what I could.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Um, I don't think I ever lost the client in those circumstances, but it was just weird and awkward, right? But we do all we can to keep people alive for sure. Um get me back on track, Nathan, because I'm off track.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

I think you're on track. No, we were just kind of talking about some of the main things that you've dealt with, or any, you know, helping people do that post-combat reintegration, some of the issues they've dealt with, you know, yeah, how to work through them.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. I um I I just, yeah. Some of the I've had some of the best conversations with the walk-around counseling because there was so much power and just walking around and saying, hey, how's it going? Right? Because I do think that gave them permission to say whatever they want to say. Because guess what? I guess what else, Nathan? I did not have to do that. Was one of my favorite things. I didn't have to keep records. Oh, I didn't have to write down their name. I didn't have to, I had to say, like, if it was grief or if it was marriage or whatever. I had, I think I had to write down their rank, their rank and the topic and the amount of time I spent. I did not have to write down what we talked about, how they were, la la la. I didn't have to do any of that stuff. Oh, I know what I know what we're talking about. Um, so I didn't have to do any of that stuff, and that gave them freedom to say really whatever they wanted to say to me. Um, I got really close to this one company, and I hung out with them a lot. I was I became friends with the first sergeant. She went through some things, Nathan. She did some some high-level secret missions, and I could tell she was carrying a lot, and I was like, you can talk to me about it. And she's like, No, I cannot. She was, I'm sure, ordered, you know, with the top, top secret things. They can't talk. Um, but she and I became good friends, and uh what's it called? Like when they're out at the range and the casing of the bullet, what's what is it was illegal, and she gave me one of those.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Oh, like brass?

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Yeah, but it's illegal. What's it called when it's illegal? I can't remember. But she was like, she handed it to me quick and she said, Don't tell anybody I gave this to you. I I still have it in my desk at home. Um, anyway, she she and I became good friends, and she put me in a Humvee. She gave me all kinds of different experiences. Those Humvees, man. I I can't even imagine being in a foreign country driving those Humvees and getting hit with an IED. I I you get body damage for riding in the damn vehicle, Nathan. They come back with back issues, leg issues, all kinds of issues from riding in that vehicle. Like, what the heck? Come on now. I think we can do better than that. And the boots that they have to wear, Nathan, they get issues from the boots that they have to wear. The the boots that they're assigned to wear as part of their uniform, they're not well made. Like, I could go on a tantrum and think about all kinds of things that they have to go through. It's just not okay. It's not okay. Higher level leaders get all the things the soldiers do not. Do you know? Do you know that after soldiers complete basic training at AIT, that some have to go on welfare?

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Really?

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Because we don't pay them very much. Now, can you imagine putting on the freaking uniform, going through all the training, and then having to get on welfare?

SPEAKER_02 57:27

I cannot imagine.

SPEAKER_00 57:28

That's another thing I could preach about because that makes me so angry. The sacrifices they make, and you have to you have to become a certain rank to make good money, and that just infuriates me. But what I was saying earlier that I want to go back to, it's just so I don't leave it unfinished, is that um it is like a family, and we didn't experience that too much as a Navy family. I think because we were he was a little older and we were married, but when you're single, like I had a soldier at that favorite company of mine. This guy. This guy got into a lot of trouble, and this was also atypical as a therapist because um we're supposed to be confidential in what we do, even though I didn't keep records, we're still supposed to hold confidence. And I had to go talk to the first sergeant, I had to go talk to drill sergeants, and I will never, I'll never forget this. I didn't start off really well with one of my brigade commanders because I think he had just experienced something really bad with one of his soldiers. And he said, when he first met me, he said, I want to know everything, I want to know where there's an issue, I want to be able to get ahead of it. And I was like, sir, I really respect that, but I can't do that because of confidentiality. And Nathan he looked at me and he said, Well, then you're no good to me. And I was like, dang, like that was one of my first meetings when I went out, when I went there. Um, but they like, okay, so this guy and one company just constantly got in trouble. And I was having to talk to the first sergeant, I was having to talk to the drill sergeants, and they they handle it like a family, like the first sergeant might be like a mom or a dad, right? And the drill sergeants might be like a big brother, and they had to they had to work through whatever issues were coming up with their different members, with the different members in the company. So they are like a family in that sense, and again, not always the healthiest family, right? Yeah, but somewhere along the way with that brigade commander, I went back and I was like, sir, can we talk? And he was like, Yes. I was like, I think we got off on the wrong foot. He's like, maybe, you know. And um I ended up attending his staff meetings because all the company commanders would like once a month get together with the brigade commander just to go over, you know, how their companies were doing and stuff like that. But he we got on the right foot. Eventually, we got on the right foot. I think I gained his respect, right? From I don't know, just the the all the work that I did and the places that I showed up and the brigade, was it the brigade? No, I think he was a battalion commander. He's like, Sherry, I always know you're gonna be here. Um, and he, yeah, he he was just a he was a very cool guy, very cool guy. Um, so anyway, I just had some of my best days. Those last two years were some of my best days, if you can't tell. Lots of just amazing experiences. I the walk-around counseling, there's just a lot of power to that. So, government, you did really good with that one. Um, I think probably at first I was frustrated that what we don't get to like, and I could meet with them as many times as they wanted to, but um, so much power, so much power in just walking up to somebody and saying, hey, how's it going? Whether it was in a Starbucks, whether it was on the shooting range, whether it was out in the woods, I would hear all the stories. Um, yeah, yeah, and I got to bring God in. Whenever they would let me, I got to bring God in. And man, I have some good God moments, just really good God moments. And one of those was a drill sergeant. I can see us, not many people in the office at the time, but he'd lost his mother not too long ago. And and we got the conversation of faith came up, and he was really mad because someone told him something about whether she was in heaven or hell, and I was just like, Look, God is a God of grace and mercy, and um, we just talked about that, and I think I got to release, help him release some of that anger, help him deal with some of his grief, and it was just a sporadic, spur of the moment conversation, and every time I saw that guy after that, he was just so friendly and so you know, kind to me and stuff like that. So lots of good memories at Fort Leonard Wood.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Yeah, and you made an impact.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

I did. I did, I did. It was just fun, it was fun. The other military family life counseling events were always fun. Now, I started that career here in Minnesota, and as you know, in Minnesota there's no base because there's we're just National Guard here, there's no active duty base, and so we really got utilized here because that's where I would do the post-deployments in a hotel because there's no base to meet at, right? So they had to figure all that stuff out. And we Minnesota, I I think I might have mentioned this in another podcast. We were the um testing place for the Beyond the Yellow Ribbon program. And um, that's where I first became. Uh we weren't even called Military Family Life Counselors then. I don't know what they called us. I don't even know if we had a name then, but that's where I got the little book. Oh, I it has the F-word on it. The the of the feelings? Nope. The other F word, Nathan. The other F word. Um, I'll have to find it after this and show it to you. But um with all the acronyms. What's the army, what's the army phrase with the F-bomb in it?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:09

FUBAR?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:10

No, no, okay, I'll have to find it. Um anyway, that's where I've that's where I started my career with the military, is and I didn't even like public speaking back then, Nathan. And I I thought I was volunteering for something. Turned out it was paid, and it was it was great pay. Sometimes I got paid $500 just for speaking at one event.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:33

So the pay started out really high because we were the trial run for the Beyond the Yellow Ribbon program, and it went so well here that they did it in all the other states, and so that was a privilege to get to be a part of that beginning of that program. Um, but lots of lots of interesting experiences along the way for sure. So I applaud man, whether you're a family member and a service member, whether you are the service member, whether you're a son or a daughter. Those families go through a lot. Service members go through a lot, right? Um, we went through we went through a lot. Our our we moved now. The Navy didn't move as many times as Army moves. I think we moved. So we went from Michigan to South Carolina, and then South Carolina. We did not move a lot. Michigan to South Carolina. We got to be in South Carolina for seven years because he had to do both sea and shore duty, and so South Carolina counted for both. And then we went to Italy, and I think Italy also counted for both, sea and shore. And then that's how we landed in Minnesota, and people were people are always like Navy, Minnesota. So that's how we landed in Minnesota. It was his final duty station because this is where he retired. And he worked, he had an office out close to the airport. He managed, he actually managed recruiters.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yep. He managed their cell phones, credit cards, and um cars for them. Um, so that's that was that's what he did. I don't know, probably four years. Yeah, before he retired. So so yeah. So I am really grateful. It's probably one of the reasons I'm super patriotic, right? Because I before I married him, I don't even know that I thought about the military. In my early, in my early 20s, I I I just didn't think about it. In Texas, I I never grew up with anybody in the military. I don't think I ever knew anybody in the military. But marrying someone in the military, then you become surrounded. And that that shifted. So I don't know if he'll ever listen to this, but Steve, I thank you for that. For you, Steve, you introduced me to the military. Um, so I'm thankful for that because man, I've had the time of my life with that job. I'm having the time of my life now as a mother to the nations. Like, God just puts me where he knows he wants me. Um, so I have the time of my life wherever he puts me, right? But that that Was a lot of fun. Whether it was my time here in Minnesota, and we didn't even talk about Nathan. At one point, oh my gosh, I accepted the role of what was it called? Director of Psychological Health for the Minnesota National Guard. Wow. Now, now, doesn't that sound like a really fancy title? Yeah. Sounds like I'm over a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:20

Sounds like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

I was that position. My God, I don't even know. Like, okay, so there's one company like Red Red Bulls. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

34th Infantry Division.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:37

Um, that's mainly I think is it a company? I don't know if I'm gonna get all my terminology straight. But Red Did Division, yeah. Division, yeah. Most people that worked here, and my goodness, man, I could do I we could do a whole nother podcast about my time with the military here in Minnesota. But I became a one-person 911.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:01

Ouch.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:02

Yeah. Talk about 911 paramedic. I didn't have any paramedic training. Um, I definitely didn't have any 911 training because that's not what therapists do. Um, and so I had to constantly say to the person who treated me like 911, which was not pretty, I had to constantly say, Sir, I am not a 911. He would yell at me, cuss at me. I'd be in a Wednesday night church service. I was I had to carry two phones like you do now. I had to carry two phones. Well, what do you do when you're in church? You mute your phones, hello. And I would get a message. Oh my goodness, he would be so angry at me because I didn't answer my phones because he had a he I didn't answer my phone because he had a soldier in crisis. And I had to repeatedly say, Sir, I am not 911. You need to call 911. And I get it, you know, like that family system wanna keep wants to keep the issues in the family, but a one person can't be 911. Yeah, and for the whole state of Minnesota, are you kidding me? Thankfully, I had another boss in the military that was a colonel, and she had my back. Every time that person came after me, she had my back even. One time the director of the National Guard got pretty irked with me, and she had my back.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

So I'm very because you know, you know me, I don't put up with much stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

No, you do not.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

I don't put up with much stuff, Nathan. So one time the the director of the National Guard kind of said, Who is this? Who is this person that's not obeying our orders? Me, me, I'm not obeying your orders, sir, because they're not good and they're not healthy. So anyway, I don't know what made me go down that rabbit hole, but that's a whole, that's a whole other story. And I transferred, you guys, I transferred to South Carolina in that position because every state had a person in that position. And man, I had the best guy that I was working under, and my company told me that I would be able to get licensed there really easily. Not the case because when I graduated, right after I graduated, they changed the requirements for licensure, but I got grandfathered in. So anytime I've tried to work in another state, it didn't work out because they they wanted me to take like six more classes or get like a lot more hours of of supervision. And being licensed back then, I was probably licensed for 15 years, and I'm like, nope, not doing all that, but that would have been an awesome position. So I had to come back to Minnesota, and they offered me that position back in Minnesota, and I was like, no way, no how, don't want to be 911 again. Yeah. So I think we better end there, Nathan, or this podcast. This pod this podcast could turn into uh like a man, probably a three-hour podcast. Um, like our friend Sean Ryan has those long podcasts, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

We love the Sean Ryan show.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:07

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

All right. Good place to wrap up.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Good place to wrap up, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

All right, finish up with some gratitude.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

Yes, you go first.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:17

I will. I this is gonna sound like a simple one, but I am so grateful to have a roof over my head, food in my belly. I'm not in a place where I have to worry about where my next meal is gonna come from or if I'm gonna get a next meal. And I'm I'm grateful that I live in a place that is peaceful. I don't wake up to war. I don't have to worry that, you know, the minute I step outside my door, I'm walking right into war. I'm just really thankful that for those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:51

That's definitely not simple, Nathan. Those are really important things that we just take sometimes take for granted.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:58

Right? Sometimes we take for granted that we have a hot meal, that we have a washer and dryer, that we have yeah, washer and dryer. I know, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:07

There's another thing I'm grateful for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

That struck me as funny, but that's a good thing to be free.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Oh my gosh, that was really funny. Oh, couldn't you just see? If you can see Nathan, you could he's doing the motions right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:37

Believe it or not, the reason is my grandmother had a washboard.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

She did.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

And she taught me how to use it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:43

I think my grandma did too, Nathan. What did you have? Did she have one of those things where she rolled the clothes then to get the water out?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:50

Nope, she just had the washboard. And there was a time when we didn't have a washer and dryer. We had to wait for like a week or two for them to be delivered. So I washed my clothes on the washboard.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:58

Oh my gosh, Nathan. That's why you have an old man part. That's one of many reasons I think why you have an old man part. Oh goodness. Okay, I am thankful. Uh, I know I've said for my spiritual children before, but I'm specifically thankful for getting to develop the relationship with my spiritual children in deeper ways. Getting to know each of you, um, taking time with each of you. Now my out of town ones, it's a little bit more difficult, but um just getting to know each of you on a deeper level and loving you on a deeper level and you trusting me on a deeper level. That, man, I'm really grateful for that, Nathan. Super grateful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:48

That's beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

It is, it's quite an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:54

All right. Well, we are also grateful that you've chosen to spend some time with us. We hope that you've taken something away from this that you found it beneficial. We know that your time is very valuable. We can't make any more of it, we can't buy any more of it. We have what we've got, and you chose to spend some of yours with us. And we hope you'll come spend some more time with us again on Divine and Most Unlikely.