Divine & Most Unlikely
We are all about being real, vulnerable, and pouring out the love of our heavenly Father. We will discuss trauma, healing, therapy, faith, hope, and more! Both from a male, (the boy) and the female (the mother) perspective. It is our intention to bring healing to those who need it, and encourage everyone to discover the divine peace that comes when we learn how to live our most abundant lives. Our podcast verse is John 10:10, and we are here to help you take back ALL THAT THE ENEMY OF YOUR SOUL has stolen. Nathan adds "guns up.......". We are so glad that you decided to come along for the journey of hearing how God brought two most unlikely people to partner together to serve A CAUSE FOR THE KINGDOM.
Divine & Most Unlikely
L-O-V-E
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In this episode we discuss:
- The relationship between love and fear.
- The things love can drive us to do.
- Courage.
- The greatest thing, you'll ever learn...
- The impacts of withholding oneself from love.
If you feel triggered by any information in this podcast, or if you feel led to start your own therapeutic healing journey, please visit psychologytoday.com to find a mental health therapist in your area.
If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call 911 or 988 for support. You can also visit 988lifeline.org for more resources, and information.
Remember.....YOU MATTER!
To schedule a discovery session with Sherri, please go to Elevatetoabundantlife.com.
The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Divine and Most Unlikely. You're spending some time with us, Nathan Bonesteel and Sherry Conran. Today we're going to talk a little bit about love, hope, some forgiveness, and then some of the cardinal virtues that we thought were tied to love, hope, and forgiveness. Sherry, when we were talking about this topic, you suggested love. You brought that up. And I this is something that we both feel deeply, the value of and how important it is in life. And that for various reasons, people might withhold or just not fully lean into that as much as they might. What do you, what are your what are some of the thoughts that come to your mind when you think about love and why it's important in life?
SPEAKER_03Such a good question, Nathan. Um, I think it's important in life for many reasons. I think we were created to love and to be loved. And God loved us first, right? God loved us first, and he calls us to love. Um, and and actually, I wrote down some scriptures in preparation for this, and the first scripture on love is 1 John 4.19. We love because he first loved us, right? And I I just think we were created to love.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right? Is one of those that there's a person that I love, not even out of choice, by the way, but just because that's my default setting, right? Meaning my parents.
SPEAKER_05Right, right.
SPEAKER_01There's a person that I love, but they're not safe, therefore, to love is not safe.
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes, very well said. I think just I know I grew up with that mistaken belief, and I think to some degree you did as well. Absolutely, right? Because we both grew up in somewhat similar environments, similar but different. Yeah, right, similar but different, and I'll just I'll speak for myself, right? With alcoholism and domestic violence, they're the memories that I have of my early years in childhood. There's not a lot of memories of love. There's only memories of the trauma, right? There's memories of love later after they got divorced and we started having, you know, my dad chilled out a little bit eventually. I mean, it took him a while, right? To become a different person. But so I didn't get a lot of examples of love, didn't have love as examples. True love, I would, I would say, was not present in my examples of my marriages, right? How that's there's this, there's this guy.
SPEAKER_01Am I sitting in his chair? You may be.
SPEAKER_03You may be sitting in his chair. You, Nathan, as we've talked about before in earlier podcasts, you taught me, I think, just along the way of having you as a client and your own pursuit of love, right? As a client, I got to walk with you through your own pursuit of love and some healthy relationships, some not so healthy relationships, some healthy perspectives, some not so healthy perspectives, right? Um, which we talk about a lot because when you go through trauma, you get that false identity of being a rescuer.
SPEAKER_00Oh, jeez, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right? Yeah, and and I think we both struggle with that, right? Yeah, because when you grow up without having anyone to rescue you, yeah, right, um, man, have I dealt with a lot of that. But when you grow up without having people to rescue you, and you you long for someone to come and take you out of these experiences that you don't know how to deal with or manage, and you wonder, like as I got older, I wondered why nobody, why? Why did nobody help? I I've even asked some relatives, like, why didn't you do anything in those scenarios? You know, and um I distinctly remember my aunt. I don't remember, I don't remember how old I was when I asked her. I'm gonna guess maybe 20s or 30s, and I think she just said she felt powerless and helpless, right, to intervene. And I I get that. Like, who can stop someone, you know, from drinking, who can stop someone with domestic violent tendencies, all the anger, all the things that that are prevalent, prevalent and present in those kind of relationships. So, anyway, long story short, you as a client really modeled what love looked like for me and just how you talked about your life and you kind of lived your life, even though you were still figuring it out yourself. And then as we eventually became friends, and then eventually, spiritual son, spiritual mother, um, you've just you've shifted, you've shifted a lot of things for me. Um honestly, like we've talked about how I obviously love my biological children, right? It's very, it's a very natural love for a mom to love her children. And even though unfortunately it doesn't happen for everybody, but I I love my children, I love being a mom, all the things children aside, because of all that I've experienced, I don't know that I had experienced the true love. And so it's it's it's been a very and and I wrote down another verse and I I read it to you when I wrote it down. It's been a very fearful experience for me.
SPEAKER_01Okay, talk a little bit about that because I don't, and there's why I'm asking. I don't think that your experience of love being a fearful journey is unique to you. I think a lot of people 100%. So tell 100%.
SPEAKER_03You and I've actually had conversations as we've journeyed on this love, friendship of like friends and spiritual son, spiritual mom. Um, and me coming from a very distorted, like, you know, with a spirit of sexual perversion in our family. I had a very distorted definition of love. Love was connected to sex.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03That's love was connected to sex in a very perverted way, right? For me. Um, that's that's why I freaked out as the therapist when you said that you loved me. I was like, no, no, no, no, right? Yep, yep. And you just stayed very calm and you you just explained everything, and I was still, I mean, I just was undone. I was like, not no, but hell no.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then there was another session, it might have been the next one, and and you're like, Well, you know, I want to come back to this thing, and you you said you love me, but are you are you in love with me?
SPEAKER_03I think that was in the same session, Nathan, when you said you love me. I was like, and yeah, I asked that question and you slid to the edge of the couch, and you're like, Sherry, I have no romantic feelings towards you. And I I told you I wiped the sweat off my brow. Um, so anyway, I think all of that happened because I've had such a distorted um definition of love and distorted experiences around love. And so this verse in 1 John really speaks to me and has spoken to me for a while about love and it it because I feel like it's talking about me, you know. I feel like it's talking about me. There is no fear and love. That is not true when you grow up in a home with domestic violence, right? And it's there's a lot of fear and supposed love, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it it keeps your heart from doing what it was made to do.
SPEAKER_03It does because it keeps you in that fight, flight, freeze response.
SPEAKER_01And I think there's a real dynamic tension there because the heart was made to love and it knows that it was made to love. And at the same time, it feels like it's unsafe to love. So there's this dynamic tension of I was built to do this thing and I want to do this thing, but I can't do that thing.
SPEAKER_03That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's that what it's what I call push pull, right? And and that's how people either develop full-blown birth borderline portion borderline personality disorder or symptoms of borderline personality disorder, which is what I used to call the push-pull, like, oh, come love me. Come here, come here. Stop, stop, stop, too much, nothing, yeah. And because we do long for we do long to be loved, and then when people do come in that direction, whether it's like us in a in a friendship relationship, spiritual mother, spiritual son relationship, or whether it's an intimate dating relationship, it can be really scary.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Right to receive either kind of love can be really scary. And so, so there's that first part. There is no fear in love. And I just want you guys to sit with that for a minute. There is no fear in love. And I've got some client scenarios going through my mind, right? Where people have been in really long-term marriages and they're in circumstances that are hard and they don't feel loved. Right.
SPEAKER_01Which is a core need, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yeah, just above like physical safety is love. The need to be loved.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. And everybody deserves to be loved.
SPEAKER_01Yes, just their humanness, not something they do. Yeah, not something they don't deserve it because they've earned it, they deserve it because they're human beings.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, let's see if I can go a little further. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear. So this verse is talking about the perfect love of Jesus, Father God, right? Because his love is perfect. And when we can get to a place of allowing his love to be present in our lives, his love drives out fear. So, with you and I, thus the title of our podcast, right? Divine and most unlikely, because of the of the divinity of the relationship, I have trusted him as I have learned and continue to learn how to love you as a son.
SPEAKER_01Because I don't have sons, right? You're you're you're you're hashtag boy mom now.
SPEAKER_03I'm a hashtag boy mom. I'm in boy mama, I'm in boy mama boot camp.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's so appropriate.
SPEAKER_03Thanks to you and Paul. I'm in boy mama boot camp. Um, yeah. Uh it it and that's just been a journey. Okay, so I want to finish that verse. So, but perfect love drives drives out fear. Oh, this is the key element because fear has to do with punishment, right? Yeah, and it seemed like growing up in a domestic violent home, it seemed like a lot of punishment was present with my dad's moods and physical abuse to my mother. And he never, he was mean to my sister. She took the brunt of his all of his challenges. Um he he he never beat, he never beat any of the kids, so just my mom, oddly. I find that very odd. Um however, as I sit here and think about it, his parents, growing up with his parents, I well, I would have to say he had a hatred towards women, right? Because his his mom was not not a nice mom, right? So um so perfect love drives out fear. And the one who fears is not made perfect in love, right? So there we there was no perfect love in our family, and most families don't have perfect love, but it wasn't it just wasn't even safe to experience love in our families. Yeah. So I think all three of us, I know, you know, we've all been married and divorced multiple times. My sister passed away in her mid-40s because I do think she got the brunt of things that happened in our family of origin, and she started drugs at a very young age, and and they took over her life. So love, Nathan, love is a it's a really, really deep topic for sure. But it's an important one to talk about because it's essential, it's essential to our well-being. And not too long ago, you and I had a conversation. Man, what have I not talked about with you? Is what I'd like to know. You and I had a conversation about I I had an acquaintance that has pretty much sworn off men, a female acquaintance that's that's sworn off men. Do you remember us talking about that? And I I I I asked your thoughts about that because that person looked kind of yeah, you could tell that that person was like closed off. Yes, there was a little bit of a cold feeling. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01I very much do, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I think when whether a man or a woman swears off love, especially intimate love, because I think you know, if you swear off intimate love, do you not swear off a little bit of just love in general, even in friendships and relationships? And whether, you know, I think we're created to be in relationships with the opposite sex as friends. I didn't know that when I was a kid, but I I think we were created for that. And today, today, Nathan, I'm kind of envious of people that I've known over the years that had a lot of guy dash friends growing up, male friends, you know, because that I didn't have that. So yeah, it's it's interesting. The con the whole concept is the whole concept is I'm is interesting, and and growing up, learning to accept even the love of the Lord, right? We had some things to reconcile. Yep, we had some things to reconcile, but they're reconciled after some fist pumping and and uh some really straightforward words. We're reconciled, right? And God is okay with that. God is okay with our anger, he is okay with our process, our need to process. He he sees and he knows, right? Everything that we go through. And yeah, and he he cries, he's he gets sad for us for the things that we go through. He gave us the gift. I'm preaching. I'm sorry, I'm preaching. I'm sorry, not sorry. He gave He gave us the gift of free will, right? So my dad had free will, my mother had free will, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and that free will thing, I want to go back to love in a little bit, but that free will thing is so important, and I don't know that we talk about it enough, but God created us for to have so that he could have a relationship with us, and something that is based upon is our free will. Because if he had created us without the the ability to choose whether to have a relationship with him, that's no relationship at all. That's a mandatory interaction. Right, we get to choose, and when you introduce free will, all manner of things can happen in the world, both good and not so good.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01But we have the freedom to choose whether to be in relationship with him, and we have the freedom to choose the actions that we take every day, how we respond to things every day. That free will is such an important thing.
SPEAKER_03It is, it is. I think you know the Lord gave us that because he doesn't like what what fun would it be? And what fun would it be to be in a relationship like that's robotic?
SPEAKER_02That's compulsory and forced, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. Nope. It wouldn't be, right? Do you do you want a forced friend in your life? Like if I felt forced to have a conversation with you, or if I felt forced to have you over for dinner or out for dinner or whatever.
SPEAKER_01I'm forced to be with me all the time. I don't want to force anyone else to.
SPEAKER_03Come on, man.
SPEAKER_01That's funny.
SPEAKER_03Come on now.
SPEAKER_01Uh, one other thing I wanted to say about love though, and and fear, because I think that that's really important. And I I want to I first want to say I know you love this word, and I totally respect that. One of my least favorite words is the word empower. I I detest the word, and here's the reason why. Empower sort of connotes that I have power and then I give it to you. It belonged to me. I give some to you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Here's what I really want to do: instead of empower, I want to encourage. I want to breathe into the heart of people. I want to pour love into their hearts and give them the courage to overcome even things when they're fearful. And I just want to share a real life example. And I know that my view is very skewed, but I think it is one of the most beautiful displays of love I have ever seen. In public safety, when, and I look, I hope this never ever happens again, but I know it's gonna happen every day. When there's an officer down call, what happens is what we refer to as the thundering herd. When there is an officer down call, everyone. Wow, everyone.
SPEAKER_03I've witnessed that in your life.
SPEAKER_01They are going to the sound of the guns. They're driving really fast, they're running, they're they're going toward the sound of the guns. And why? They might not even know that particular officer, but what they know is it's one of their brothers. And ladies, you can be brothers too. Ladies can be a part of the brotherhood, but it's one of their brothers.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we are we are not going to leave them alone. We are gonna go in there and take them out of that bad situation one way or the other. And I just think that that's such a beautiful um demonstration of love because something bad happened. If there's an officer down, something bad has happened. Yes, there's a threat, there's a there's an existing threat right now that was able to take one officer down, and if it's able to take one officer down, it's able to take more down. And what do they do anyway? They go toward the threat, right? Not because they hate the threat, but because they love their brother. I don't think hate can really overcome fear, but love, love can overcome fear.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And it doesn't mean that the fear goes away. We're still human. Fear is is a part of what's sown into us, and a lot of times there's good reason for the fear, like to preserve our life.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And yet we make decisions sometimes to go towards something that threatens us, not because we hate the thing that threatens us, but because the we love the thing that it threatens.
SPEAKER_03So powerful, Nathan. So powerful. Yeah, I have seen you love. I have not gotten to witness it firsthand, but secondhand through just things you've shared with me. But I've seen you, I've seen you do just what you described, right? With uh with um an officer, I believe an officer whose life ended. Yep. And um, I've seen you do it well with two officers. One was probably no, I don't think that one. The first one wasn't in retirement, where you what is it called, where you lined the hallway.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, the honor walk.
SPEAKER_03The honor walk. So I got to witness that second, you know, just by you sharing. And then I got to witness one that this mama heart will never, I'll I won't forget any of them, Nathan, but I got to witness where there was a fallen officer, and you gave that officer's mom a flag. Yeah, and that is love in action. Love in action, and it was such a beautiful even though I got to witness it secondary, it was still such a beautiful thing to witness, and I was just so so proud of you. And yeah, just proud of you as a friend, proud of you as a man, proud of you as a spiritual mama, proud of you, right? And I know, and you have. Since heard I know that how meaningful that was to that family, and you have since heard right how meaningful that was to that family. So I want you to know that you love well.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you love well, and you've trained yourself. You were taught that by your mom, not necessarily by your dad. No, right? Because of dad, you know, our parents, both both of our parents have stuff.
SPEAKER_01That's right. They went through all of their own stuff.
SPEAKER_03They went through all their own stuff. That that stuff doesn't come out of nowhere. Our trauma didn't come from.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_03You know, it's not, I don't, even though they chose the actions, I just think that, you know, when you don't do your work, you do what you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think there's I do think that there's something to be said. You mentioned this yesterday in a conversation we we were having with someone, but you said not always, but a lot of times, trauma is generational. And I think there's something to be said for inertia. Do we have, do we still have freedom to choose our behaviors? Yes, absolutely we do. But the inertia is already moving in a certain direction.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And so to change that direction, or even to stop it, to stop it takes a lot. It takes a lot. To change the direction, depending on the the amount of directional change, it can take a little or a lot, but the momentum is already moving in a certain direction. And I just want to say about that, that officer, you know, I got the I didn't, I did not ask or volunteer for this, but I had the privilege and the honor of helping to plan the uh public safety presence at her memorial ceremony. And then as you mentioned, I had the probably the best thing I'll ever do in my entire career uh present her mom with that folded flag. And that was also not something that I asked for or planned. As a matter of fact, the plan was for someone else to do it, and then that day, and and and I completely he did he made the right call, but that day he just he was absolutely overcome with emotion and was not able to do it, and and so it ended up being me. And I gotta tell you, relating to the love and fear thing, I was terrified because it's such a meaningful thing.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01I mean, absolutely, I just can't, I don't even know the words. I'm not a mother, I'm not a mother, I'm never gonna be a mother. I don't know what it is like to have your child die in the line of duty. Yeah, yeah, and then to sit at an immorial service and receive a folded flag. Um I just it was it was I mean, it was an honor, it was a privilege, it was not something on my bucket list. I'd never done it before. I hope I don't have to do it again.
SPEAKER_03Well, Nathan, I hope that's not on anyone's bucket list to do, right? I mean, I don't I don't think that's on anyone's bucket list to do, but but even though you've never done it before, even though you didn't plan to do it, right? You young man you saw the need. Yeah, and you and you you you stepped up to the plate.
SPEAKER_01And and to go back to love, I was terrified. The reason I did it is because of love, because I yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So God empowers us. I did not do that on purpose, you guys. And and Nathan's definition, I think, is a little bit different than my definition, you know. Yeah, but God does empower us to do these really hard things that we don't know how to do, right? And be allowing Nathan to love me, you guys don't know. You don't know. We're both sitting over here in tears. Yeah, with this one. He just shed some quiet tears with that that his story, and I'm about to shed some, maybe not quite tears. Because this relationship has taken a lot of courage for me with being his therapist and now being, you know, his friend and his spiritual mother. But it's it's been a divine ordained um relationship, and I know that because God has told me many, many times that it that it is divine and ordained, and just the things that have happened along the way have confirmed that for me. But but it's been it's been terrifying. But God, man, when God calls you to something, he's gonna make a way. He's gonna make a way, just like Nathan. He called you to though that situation.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and he certainly helped me every single step of the way through.
SPEAKER_03He did, he did. We talked through it together, we prayed through it together, and he showed up every step of the way for sure. And you, you know, there's that phrase, feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, yeah, that's that's what you did. You felt the fear and you did it anyway in those circumstances.
SPEAKER_01And we've talked about this before, but I just want to make the point again that courage is not the absence of fear.
SPEAKER_03Amen.
SPEAKER_01We don't and we don't feel courageous. I did not feel courageous while I did that. I felt terrified and I felt like, oh my god, I hope I don't mess up. I mean, thank God I meant I mean, that's gonna come out wrong. I've been to a lot of public safety funerals. Yeah, and so I'm relatively familiar with the drill and ceremony aspects. But even though that was the case, I was just terrified. And in that instance, you know, I did it anyway. It wasn't, and other people do this too. It's not you don't feel afraid, it's that you feel afraid and you make the choice to do this hard thing. And it's you you you do that well, you're feeling afraid. And a lot of times people are doing that out of love, you know. And I just think that that's such a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_03It is a beautiful thing, it is a beautiful thing. So if you or someone on the other side of I don't know, people don't have radios anymore, I don't think. I don't know if they do.
SPEAKER_01I don't think probably not.
SPEAKER_03They do, but they probably can't get the podcast on a radio.
SPEAKER_00Probably not.
SPEAKER_03Lord help me, I'm showing my age, Nathan. Um if you're sitting on the other side of the podcast, probably using your phone, maybe your computer, it doesn't matter. But if you if you've encountered love in unhealthy ways, and you've told yourself, that's it, I'm done. I'm not going down that road anymore.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, if you're if you're holding your heart back, if you can feel that you're holding your heart back, and maybe have an honest conversation with yourself and ask yourself, are you? But if you are, I just want to encourage you to be curious, ask yourself a little bit about why. And then I want to challenge you to incrementally, in ways that feel safe, let yourself let that heart that's in you that is made to love, let that heart do what it was made to do. Because when we don't, we are holding ourselves back. We are a lesser version of ourselves, we are a shadow of the selves that we were made to be. And that is not that's not thriving. That is survival.
SPEAKER_03That's right, that's right. And God does not want us to live in that place of survival, he did not create us to survive. The enemy wants us to survive, but stay stuck there, yeah. But God wants us to thrive, God wants us to have that John 10 10, the second half of that verse, that Christ came so that we could have life and life abundantly. That's what he wants for us. And Nathan, Nathan was the first of 11 spiritual children. And I I am just a very blessed mama, and I'm a blessed woman because I have 11 stellar, they're all stellar, none more stellar than than each other. They're they're all they all have their own, you all have your own, Nathan.
SPEAKER_01Um our own unique gifts.
SPEAKER_03Your own unique gifts, yes, your own unique, amazing qualities that constantly blow me away.
SPEAKER_01We just worked with another.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we just worked with Morgan.
SPEAKER_01That's right, who has tremendous and amazing gifts that I don't possess even a little drop of.
SPEAKER_03Ditto. I don't possess any of those gifts either. I don't possess any of those gifts either. But it was, it's, it's, it's so fun to hang out with each of each of you guys and to interact with you and to, you know, do Morgan, more do life. Morgan actually, like, I was trying to think of a name to call, like, how to refer to our family, right? And and Morgan was like, Sherry, look at the chosen family you've created. And that that's our name, chosen family. We've all like mutually kind of chosen each other, right? And I just think it's the coolest thing. And I will tell you, when I was a therapist, and this happened, this all happened when I was a therapist, but when I was a therapist, it shifted. And Nathan, if you can just speak to that really quickly, it shifted when I started when he became like a friend and a spiritual sh son, it shifted his healing journey.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Well, just briefly, I think the way that that happened is you know, when when we were in session, and as you pointed out, I think for the first year I went for an hour twice a week. And that was really good and very, very effective. However, it's still only two hours a week. Right. And when you and I started interacting outside, and it's which was terrifying for one of us, was terrifying. Um, which means there was a lot of courage there. Um, when we started doing that, there was more time outside of therapy that we spent interacting, and as that happens in any relationship, you get to know one another better. And Sherry got to know me better, and it would translate to uh just us understanding, oh, hey, we might need to work on this area or that area, or that sounds like it might be a mistake in belief, you know. And and it wasn't because I was deliberately not telling her stuff or withholding, it was more that as you spend more time with someone and you get to know them better, you are naturally gonna peel back layers of that onion and learn things you just didn't know before. I want to say one more thing about love.
SPEAKER_03And then if you wanna if you want to transition to to the next one, we can Yeah, I was thinking, Nathan, we we chose three things love, hope, forgiveness, and and what are these called again?
SPEAKER_01Some of the cardinal virtues.
SPEAKER_03Cardinal virtues. So we chose all of that, and we're 30 minutes.
SPEAKER_01I know, isn't that funny?
SPEAKER_0330 minutes in on just love. We'll see how we do.
SPEAKER_01So I just want to say this one thing about love. If you guys haven't heard the song, I really hope you listen because it's beautiful. It's uh the title is called Nature Boy, and it's by Nat King Cole. And there's a line in there where he says, The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.
SPEAKER_03Wow, so powerful. So powerful, Nathan. It is a whole thing, isn't it? It's a whole thing to learn to be loved, right? And we're still you and I, and all of us are still working on believing we're lovable.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, yeah. Right, right?
SPEAKER_03It's pretty easy to love each other, but when we say those kind words back and forth, you're like, I'm like, right? So that's a that's an important part, I think, of being able to receive the love that comes back and forth. So I think most humans are working on that, just believing the truth because the devil has told us lots of lies about our identity, about our value and our worth, and he has in the in the in the world in general, I think, like you know, all of the ways people find false identity with their positions in life, with their finances, with their titles, with their all the things that we get identities from. And identity can only come from Christ. Christ, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, who who who does it serve? Who does it help? Who does it benefit for you to believe that you are unlovable? Who does it benefit for you to not love yourself? Who does it benefit for you to reject the love of others?
SPEAKER_03Nathan, that is like a golden question, right? Do you know who it benefits? Do you know who I think benefits?
SPEAKER_05Tell me.
SPEAKER_03The enemy benefits the enemy because it keeps you frozen. If you're not believing in who God created you to be, it keeps you frozen from stepping onto your blueprint that God created for you, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, and I think that another question, this is something that you've asked, and it's caused me to think. But do you think whatever it is you think about yourself, do you think that that's how God sees you? Does God see you as unlovable? Does God think that those kind words that other people say, does God want you to let them run off you like Teflon? Or does He want you to absorb them? You know? Um those are just some really good questions that you've taught me to ask myself, and it's definitely shifted my thinking.
SPEAKER_03Which is really good. It it it it's a good thing that it shifted your thinking because it's important that we believe we are who he says we are, right?
SPEAKER_01He he calls us his beloved, he calls us his chosen, he calls us sons and daughters, and the entire reason he created us in the first place was to have a relationship with him. I know, and then here we are thinking we're not good enough, and he created women because he saw that, and this is somebody else pointed this out. I don't know, I'm not I'm not a biblical scholar, but he pointed out in Genesis in that creation story, what you hear a lot of is God did this and he saw that it was good, and then God did that and he saw that it was good, and God did this and he saw that it was good, and God created man, and he saw that it was not good for him to be alone, amen. But it's the only time in that creation story that you hear that something is not good, that is powerful, and that that in that instance, if it is true that it is not good for man to be alone, then the other side of that is equally true. It is not good for woman to be alone.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Now he's resting his case.
SPEAKER_02I was literally just thinking, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness. Yeah, yep. I think it's a true, I think it's very, very true. I can tell you, as a person who's been single now for 11, go on. I think we're going on 11 years. Okay, I don't know that it's been a bad thing, but I can tell you it's it's been an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_01And you made that choice. That was I did, I did. That was a deliberate choice. And that I just want to be clear. I'm not you can share which one to share, but that choice was not made out of anger or hate or spite.
SPEAKER_04Nope.
SPEAKER_01That choice was made out of a recognition of your own internal state, yes, and the desire to take the time necessary to heal.
SPEAKER_03Yes and amen. Yes and amen.
SPEAKER_01So I just want to because that's different. Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_03But here's what I want to say about that. I did make that commitment that I was not gonna get into any other relationship until I became more healed. Marriage number two ended. Now, listen, guys, marriage number two is 28 years, so it's not like I didn't give it my my all. Yeah, you know, all the effort because to the degree that I could, I did. I was very, very unhealed from trauma. He also was very, very unhealed from trauma. And you can't have two healthy individuals in a relationship when they're both unhealed from trauma, right? And so you do the best you can with what you know, right? Kind of like our parents did raising us. They did the best they could with what they knew, even though it was not perfect, even though it caused trauma. I'm sure my kids have some of their own traumatic experiences that I know that they've been working through, which is awesome. You're not gonna raise kids without, you know. I, you know, I I tell clients, tell your kids like I'm saving up for your future therapy. Right, because it's a it's a it's a tough, it's a tough job being a parent. So um I did make a commitment to stay single until I got healthy after two failed marriages. Um, and that was a good thing. But I I will tell you, like, I don't know how far in I got, whether it was maybe, I don't know, maybe a year, maybe in these last two or three years, and you know, we went through some things in 2020, right? Some things in 2020. Um, so there was that, but in these last years, and this is the love of the father sending me 11 spiritual children, okay? In these last three to four years, it's it's very interesting when you're single and you don't get physical touch. You don't get physical touch, right? And I mean I was in a profession that teaches you no physical touch. They even taught me. I I remember vividly being in supervision in 2000, 2001, where I was in supervision and training, and my my supervisor said, you cannot hug clients. And I was, you know, a little rebellious on that one. I was like, well, if a client wants a hug, I'm hugging a client. But so being not being in a relationship, an intimate relationship, I didn't get a lot of physical touch. There was no hand holding, there was no hugging, yeah, obviously no physical intimacy. And I started to feel it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I started to like, I started to feel it.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03And I have a ton of friends. God has truly blessed me with friends. So I started telling my friends, like, hey, when you see me, please hug me. You know, and I have some friends, and Nathan is included, and those friends that know how to hug. They know how to hug. I have one girlfriend that when she comes, she doesn't get to come to prayer group too often, but when she comes, I can assure you, it's probably a two or three-minute hug, if not four, right? We just hold each other and we squeeze and we breathe, kind of like you and I do. Very, very, very therapeutic. And I think that's so important to talk about because people need human touch.
SPEAKER_01There was a really interesting experiment done. I and I don't have the specifics, I don't remember where or when, or the researcher, but I remember the content, which was they wanted to find out what, if any effect it had on baby monkeys to deprive them of I remember that video, Nathan. And so there were different groups of baby monkeys, and one had their mother, and so had all the normal interactions that they would with their mother, and then one had like a stuffed animal, and then one had nothing. And the one that got nothing became an absolute savage. In and I don't mean that in a in a complimentary way, it was bad. That thing was angry, so physically angry and hostile.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01And I'm not saying that we're monkeys, but we're, you know, very close.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we're close.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yes, we're very close. They're very like, I don't know, they're very human-like for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And I I think what that demonstrates is your point about how important that healthy, appropriate physical contact is for humans, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I just want to say to you again, the listeners, if you have a loved one that is single, be sure you're putting like your hands on them, whether it's like hooking arms with them or whether it's a hug or you know, a kiss on the cheek or whatever. Be sure, be sure you're giving them some physical touch because it's so important. And especially, you know, I I have good a good friend that um is a widow, right? And lives by herself. Um, she gets a lot of friends, she gets a lot of love from her dog, but and she does have children and grandchildren that live close. So, you know, I just think be sure you're paying attention. Be sure you're paying attention to people in those situations, whether they're older or whether they're not, because we all have even single young people in our lives, right? So my kids, some of my spiritual children, you know, are single and young. And yeah, I I don't know. I being married, this is the first time, which is wild. I got divorced when I was 52 years old, and that was the first time I'd ever lived on my own. Because I got married right out of the shoot at 17, and then had a child divorced, married again at 26. So this last 11 years has been the first time I've lived by myself. So I've not ever experienced this before. And I've spent the majority of my life in relationships. Even when I was single, I was looking for relationships in between the marriages, and I've I don't know. I I don't think I've ever thought about not having physical touch before. And it just dawned on me one day, Nathan, like man, I miss that.
SPEAKER_01People need that, like yeah, it's reassuring, it's comforting.
SPEAKER_03It is, it is all of the things, and I I don't know that people necessarily think about that. But if you like I said, if you know someone single, if you know someone who's a widow, if you know someone who's going through a divorce, man, they need a hug. They need a hug, they need for you to hook arms, they need for you to high-five, they need for you to do whatever you feel comfortable with. So I just really want to put some emphasis on that.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a really perfect transition to hope.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I was just thinking, as fast as the time is going with love, I don't think if we shouldn't stay on love for a few minutes. We can maybe, maybe, I don't know, Nathan. Hope and forgiveness.
SPEAKER_02Um we might not get all that.
SPEAKER_03I mean, we might we're definitely not gonna get everything we thought. We're not gonna get it.
SPEAKER_02Which is so typical. So typical.
SPEAKER_01You guys, we we don't we don't script anything because we want what we say to be heartfelt and and genuine, but we will, you know, kind of talk about rough bullets about some stuff that we want to hit. And you know, there are times where we'll look at an outline and we'll think, hmm, it looks a little lean. I wonder if we're gonna, you know, and w without without fail, we always yeah.
SPEAKER_03I have this little saying, I don't sometimes I think I say it to Nathan, but mostly to myself, I'm like, I could talk to a tree for an hour. You know, so Nathan, if it's okay with you, I think we need to spend a little bit more time on love because that is a it's a very uh heavy topic. It's a full-bodied topic, if you will. It's such an important, it's an important topic. And I I think I want to talk a little bit about like self-acceptance and loving who God created you to be. Because, you know, we have so many things in common, you and I. Um you are my Isaac, after all, right? Um, but I think when we don't have self-love, it's difficult for us to love, and it might be difficult for us to accept love and receive love, right? So for me, I and I want you if you're comfortable to talk a little bit about what it's looked like for you learning to love yourself and learning to be able to truly receive love.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, I think part of what that's looked like for me is in the beginning. Just sounds very genesis. In the beginning.
SPEAKER_04I was just thinking of the same thing. There was gone.
SPEAKER_01That's right. That's not how this story goes. Although he was there. Uh, in the beginning, when when I started therapy, I something that's really important to me, and I'm I'm sure that that you know lots of men are gonna hear echoes of this inside their own heart is ownership and accountability. Meaning when I do something bad or wrong, that's not anyone else's fault. That is on me. I'm responsible for my behavior. I made the choice, and I'm responsible for the outcome.
SPEAKER_03You have a very serious look on your face right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I'm I'm dead serious about it. And one of the things that you have helped me to recognize is that while those things are true, it is also true that, at least for me, and I'm sure it's this way for many other people, when you make a choice that does not really reflect your heart, when you make a choice that ends up hurting someone, when you end up making a choice that has an outcome other than what you desired, you didn't make that choice with the deliberate intent of being malicious or causing harm.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01Now, does that excuse what you did? No, it doesn't. But there is a significant difference be between someone who uh does something with a deliberate malicious intent and someone who does something with good intent and it's just kind of goes sideways. And what you've helped me to see in myself is you've helped me to sort of turn around, look at where I've come from, what I've experienced, what was modeled for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the why behind some of the behaviors.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And so, especially when we're young, we're so malleable. And what we're shown early on makes a big impact because we essentially, in the beginning, we're mimics. We just repeat what we're shown. And like for those of you who who doubt that, think about the number of times that you've said something around one of your kids or a kid, and then they repeat it, and you go, Oh man! Yes, no, don't say that.
SPEAKER_03Um we haven't talked about this much, Nathan, but I think I call kids little mirrors. Yeah, they're little mirrors because my goodness.
SPEAKER_01They're little recorders, yes. Um, but you've helped me to see that when when things were modeled for me at an age when I didn't know, I couldn't distinguish, I didn't have the ability to forecast, oh, here, this is the second, third, and fourth order effects of this behavior. You just repeat what you're shown, and then that in turn is also true of my parents. So when I look at myself, I will say that it has been easier for me to look at my parents, and by the way, specifically, I'm gonna talk about my dad. It's been easier to look at him with a lens toward forgiveness than it has been to look at myself. But the thing is, if he is worthy of being forgiven, then so am I. There's not like we're the same human thing, you know.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Can you can you pause?
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Can you say that one more time?
SPEAKER_01If he is worthy of being forgiven, then I am also worthy of being forgiven because we're the same thing.
SPEAKER_03You're both men.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're both men. You're both human. We're both human. Yeah. You cut us, we're gonna bleed.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Oh, so good, so good, so good, so good. You have forgiven your dad for really, for really big things.
SPEAKER_01And it's an active process. I I think we've probably talked about this before. I just want to say it again. But for me, the experience has not been like a switch. Okay, it's over there on the wall. All right, boom, flicked it in the up position, it is on, I have forgiven. Um it's it's an active choice.
SPEAKER_03It is an active choice, yes.
SPEAKER_01And there are days where I find that there's a little bit of anger that'll come up, and that is usually my cue to return to that forgiveness.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so good, Nathan. So, so good.
SPEAKER_01And and the other thing I think that with that self-love thing is it doesn't mean that you essentially write yourself a blank check to do whatever you want because you're you and I love you and you're great. It's more that you recognize that you're gonna step up to the line and you're gonna take aim and you're gonna draw the bow back, and sometimes you are gonna nail that bullseye. But more often than not, you're not exactly gonna hit a bullseye, and sometimes you're gonna miss the mark a lot, and sometimes you're not even gonna be on the target. But it's not because you are bad or wicked or dirty or filthy or any of those awful, just judgmental words.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's because you are a freaking human being, just like every other person around you. And the only way to not miss the mark is not to take a shot, and that is no kind of life.
SPEAKER_03So good, Nathan.
SPEAKER_01So good. If you're gonna step up to the line and you're gonna take a shot, you are gonna miss the mark sometimes. Recognize that. Hey, that didn't go where I wanted it to, right? That's not what I intended to happen, right? And I'm sorry, and I don't want to do that again, and I'm gonna learn from that and I'm gonna incorporate those lessons. But I didn't do that because I'm a horrible, you know, creature. I did that because I'm a human and right, I don't get it right all the time.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. Huh. I'm telling Nathan this more and more, I tell you guys, especially these last few days. I'm like, Nathan, you don't know it, but you're preaching. Yeah, he has got some such good messages, such good messages. Yeah, so if we can forgive our parents for the traumatic events that we encountered in childhood, yeah, how much more should we then not be able to forgive ourselves? That's right. Should we then be able, I'm sorry, should we then be able to forgive ourselves? Because listen, you guys, when we don't forgive ourselves, that brings uh uh that brings up resentment towards ourselves, self-hatred, condemnation, like the spirit of condemnation.
SPEAKER_01And all those things, that condemnation judgment, that is not that is an enemy of love. But I think one of the the values of understanding that, if you believe that to be true, is that love then is an enemy to those things. So if you can apply love, that is like an antidote. You fight the judgment, the condemnation, the that you fight that stuff with love. And that goes for yourself and others.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think the Lord, you know, when you wrestle with these things, whether it's forgiving parents or forgiving other people or whether it's self-love, I think the Lord partners with us on that journey because He loved us so much that He died on the cross for us. Before we were ever born, before we were ever born, He died on the cross for us. He died on the cross for our sins.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Before He knew us, before we were able to do anything to earn it, before we were even able to act.
SPEAKER_03That's right. Not not before He knew us, because He knew us from before we were created, is what I wanted to say. He He knew us before we were even formed to be put in our mother's womb. He knew us and He chose us. And I believe He knew who who was gonna say yes to him and who was gonna say no to him. And so, yeah, Nathan, there's nothing, nothing N-O-T-H-I-N-G that we can do that takes his love away from us. Nothing, not murder.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that is not even domestic violence, unconditional love. I mean, unconditional love like we can't hardly understand.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_03We can't hardly understand as humans because it is a model for us, it is a model for us, but it's like Lord, you want me to love this person? Like, you know, yes, because he commands us to, yeah, and he can empower us to, yeah, right? Even when we're not truly feeling it, he can empower us to.
SPEAKER_01And I I think one of the things that can trip us up is we think, okay, if we're supposed to love this person who's done this, you know, this bad thing, that it looks a certain way. And I'm not, I mean, I I'm not inside everyone's head, but I I think we have a concept of how that looks. And then I would just like to draw our attention back to the Pharisees and Jesus turning over the tables in the temple. I don't believe that in that moment he did not love the Pharisees.
SPEAKER_03I believe so good, Nathan.
SPEAKER_01I believe he did. Yeah, and he was also fed up with their nonsense and expressed that physically. And so I think we need a bleeping.
SPEAKER_03We need a bleeper.
SPEAKER_02We do, oh my gosh. The thing would be for me, the thing would be going off all the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If someone got to if someone got paid for the number of bleeps, they'd probably be a millionaire.
SPEAKER_03I've heard a time or two that in the first responder world, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01There's some language.
SPEAKER_02There is some language.
SPEAKER_03You've been a bit of a bad influence on my spiritual mother.
SPEAKER_02And proud of it. Yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_03Oh, goodness. Yeah, so love, oh, the love of the Lord is limitless and it's incredibly unbelievable. It's a little bit hard to perceive. But to live your best life, Nathan, I think we need to have self-love and love other people. I spent the majority due to trauma, due to not experiencing true love. I spent the majority of my life not loving myself. Not loving myself. And it's had a very negative impact. I've even, you know, I'm on this journey of getting more physically and physically fit in shape, all of those things. By the way, I try really hard to practice what I preach, but I'm very passionate. I don't always practice it as much as I want to, but I'm very passionate with as you age, because I'm 62. I we were not an active family. We I was not in any kind of sports growing up. I did Girl Scouts. I think I might have been in like tap or ballet, because I know I put my kids in tap or ballet, but I didn't, my kids weren't sports or we weren't very active when my kids were growing up either. So weight has been a generational issue in my family. And so I just want to say, as in general, exercise is so important, but as we age, exercise is imperative, and not just exercise, but um strength training is imperative because that's why so many, I from my perspective, that's why as as people age in our society, they're in a wheelchair, they're using a walker, they're using canes. And let me tell you, you need muscles to move your body and for your body to stay strong.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03And one of my I recently traveled with Kristen, one of my spiritual daughters, and Nathan, I haven't had to do this in years, but uh for Frontier Airlines, we had to get on the plane with stairs on the outside, right? And we had to carry our suitcases up the stairs, and I have mobility issues with my legs. And Kristen's like, Do you want me to grab your suitcase? And I was like, sure. And she took her suitcase and my suitcase, and she turned around and she said, This is why I train.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah.
SPEAKER_03This is that this is why I train. Yeah. So in those kind of situations, not necessarily for the body, and I think I think as a society we get it wrong. Not wrong. Who doesn't like a nice looking body? But I I don't think that should be the motivator. I think if I think if the motivate the motivator can't talk today, Nathan. I think if the motivation was that to be strong as we age and to be strong to help other people when they need help, I think that's a a whole different motivator. So I just a little side note with that's not really a side note.
SPEAKER_01No, no, because that's self- self-love. And and love of others too. I'm gonna I'm gonna train to serve others so I have the capacity to serve others.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's love.
SPEAKER_03That's really good. I like that. I like that it did it fit in really nicely. Um, but yeah, I spent the majority of my life not liking myself or loving myself because of the trauma that I went through. Because I didn't feel loved by mostly by mom and dad, that started it at the root. So, how could I feel loved by either men? Both men were alcoholics. So, how that you know, you put that on top of the childhood trauma. And so my my urge to you, audience, and Nathan, Nathan's on the journey. We're both still on the journey of self-love.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yep, still on the journey of self-love. My urge to the audience is to learn and work on loving yourself so that you can receive the love from the Lord, the love from your children or grandchildren, the love of people around you. God wants you to love yourself and he wants to love you, and he can't fully love you if you can't fully love him. Right? I mean, that's not true. He can fully love you, but you're not gonna reap the benefits. You're not gonna reap the benefits if you can't fully love yourself. I personally want to be done with not loving myself. I want to be done with that. I have so not loved myself that I think I disconnected from my body with using emotional eating as a survival skill. I think I disconnected with my body. And Nathan, I think that's part of the reason I have issues with my legs, because my legs are like, hello, we need your attention, right?
SPEAKER_01One other thing I wanted to mention, because you talked about, you know, uh aging. So the medical word for loss of muscle is called sarcopenia. And sarcopenia is a major issue as people age. And to your point, yeah, you're saying, hey, I want to train so that as I age, I age well and I age in a healthy manner. Yes, you're building that muscle that you're building, you're building that is the scaffolding upon which I love it. Yeah, your your body is going to sort of maintain itself. And uh this may sound like a slight deviation, but I do think it's worthwhile. There's you know, GLP ones are very popular now.
SPEAKER_03They are and they're very concerning, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01To me, they are, yes.
SPEAKER_03Concerning for me as well.
SPEAKER_01And what I want to say about that is the reason GLP ones are so attractive is because it is a quick way to lose weight, and who wouldn't want that? Now, one of the things that is most concerning to me is that in many studies on GLP ones that are used in the dosing to affect weight loss, what's found on things like DEXA scans is that about 60% of the weight that is lost is adipose. So that's great, right? Because that's the goal. That's what people are trying to do. Sure. I also want to point out that if my math serves me, there's another 40% there that is muscle loss.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And that can be catastrophic.
SPEAKER_03So very concerning.
SPEAKER_01Right. People's muscle mass, and I'm not, you don't have to look like Arnold, but people's muscle mass is what helps sustain them. If you, God forbid, undergo a significant surgery, that muscle mass will help sustain you. You will bounce back more quickly and become more active sooner after that surgery.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And and Nathan, I think elderly people, and I I hate that word, you guys. As I as I age, I'm like, don't you call me elderly.
SPEAKER_01Well, and what does that mean? You you know, because it's not, is there what's the age?
SPEAKER_03I think it's the age that if they're if someone's a little older than you, right? Like, I have 21 years. I don't think you've ever thought of me as elderly. I don't have an elderly personality.
SPEAKER_00No my gosh, no.
SPEAKER_03But I I I don't know. I don't know. But um I think people falling and breaking hips, yes, or breaking, you know, their knees, all the things that get broken, that would not happen if they had some muscle. That's because you don't lose your balance if you've got the muscles.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and also if you're if you're doing strength training, like Talking about. So let's say you're doing squats. Okay. If you're doing squats, you're training your body and brain in balance. Uh, if you're doing like split squats, or um uh there's another word I'm looking for, uh, lunges. That's the word I was looking for. If you're doing that, that's another way you're training your body in balance and stuff like that, and those balance reflexes are malleable. Your body is malleable and adaptive, it's made to be. And if you people say it all the time, but if you don't use it, you're gonna lose it.
SPEAKER_03That's right. I see a lot of my neighbors, and again, you guys, I'm really good at preaching it. I'm not as good as I want to be yet practicing it, but I'm working on it. I'm working on it.
SPEAKER_01I'm pretty sure you trained more than I did this last week.
SPEAKER_03No, I don't I don't know, Nathan. Okay, I don't know. But um, but we're we're both trying, Nathan. Yeah, right. We're both trying. Um, even you as a younger man and someone who loves the gym and is very disciplined, you have your moments where you where you have a hard time getting into the gym for whatever reason.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and a lot of it for me is the things that will make me give give a second thought are usually pain or fatigue.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah. Let me tell you about pain. I live in pain these days with my legs. And I have to, I it it can it can absolutely keep me out. All my friends are like Sherry, just walk, walk for 10 minutes, and I just want to sometimes smack them because it's like if you knew the pain, yeah, if you knew the pain, yeah, and you guys sometimes I think the pain is more in my head, you know, because yes, my legs hurt, but I I walked to my car, all right. And I've got the longest hallway in America to walk down to get out to my car.
SPEAKER_01Um there was no hyperbole at all there.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, I think my friends might disagree with you, but um, I don't know. Pain, pain is a barrier, but you know what they say? They say motion is lotion.
SPEAKER_01Motion is lotion. And and also, yeah, sometimes it's the the at least for me, it's the I've got this mental idea of what I should do at the gym. And it's basically in my mind, I should be getting better every single time and setting a new record every single time. And if I don't do that, then it's not good.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And it's like, well, hang on, man. Hang on. Um, is it better to go to the gym and do something than it is to not go to the gym and then do nothing? Yes. Well, obviously, it's better to go and do something. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I've had to give myself permission, Nathan. Like with my my legs just stay really tight, my uh, you know, my joints can get stiff really quick. So I give myself permission. I do, I don't know what you call it, where you just stand up and you just do heel lifts.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yep.
SPEAKER_03I do heel lifts, and then I do squats, and then I do knee lifts, right? To go after around the gut. And all of that, like I I am pretty stiff when I get out of bed. And if I stand up, and if I stand up and do that, my body feels like normal again, right? So I give myself permission to start with that. I do the rebounder for five or ten minutes, and then I'll go uh do some bicep, tricep work, um, different kinds of things with my weights. And so, you know, give yourself permission to do little bits and pieces. And whether you do just go into the gym and you and you do some squats with weights or you do whatever, right? Just give yourself permission. And you know what? My I love my nutritionist, she calls it, she calls it exercise snacks.
SPEAKER_00Oh, exercise snacks.
SPEAKER_03Exercise snacks. Like Sherry, could you have a 10-minute snack after you eat your lunch and move your body for 10 minutes? Because even after you eat, if you because man, you just wanna I've got this amazing, you know, the chair. The chair, I yes, I know the chair. It reclines. And um, after lunch, when I'm at work, man, I just want to recline that chair and stretch out and feel full and all the things. But she says, and I haven't had much success with this one yet, but she says, if you'll get up and just move your body for 10 minutes, your food will settle in the places where it's supposed to settle. So I'm still working on that one, but it's just really important as we age, and no matter how old we are, to be strength training in my building. There's four floors in the building where I live in, and the residents are constantly, like, especially in the winter, walking up and down the halls. And I just kind of want to tell them, Hey, can you you want to scoot in the gym? You know, like the walking is really good. Everybody's all into the steps, and the steps are not a bad thing. The 10,000 steps, not a bad thing, but we want to be lifting the weights to build the muscle. Yep, because you can be walking all you want, and that is not building your muscle to prevent you from falling.
SPEAKER_01Another thing with that strength training, and do I hope people don't have a specific idea in mind of what that means. Like, if you if I say squats, that doesn't mean you have to squat 400 pounds. Right? You can squat 95 pounds, you can squat 55 pounds.
SPEAKER_03Nathan, you can squat your body weight, you can squat your body weight, yeah, absolutely. You can squat your body weight, right? That's a to me, that's a great place to start because that's what I do right now is squat my body weight, right?
SPEAKER_01But I wanted to say a while ago, you you talked about you know people falling and breaking a hip or breaking a leg or whatever. And another reason that strength training is important is strength training actually does cause your bones to be more dense. And the reason is it causes these little micro fractures, which is normal, that's a normal healthy thing. And then as those micro fractures in your bone heal, it ends up creating a denser bone mass. Yes. And so, like there was there was a time a while ago where one of the very popular commercials was for these chocolate-flavored chews for women, and they were from a company called Actually, you know what? It doesn't matter, the company doesn't matter. But the the marketing was this is how you'll prevent osteoporosis, this is how you'll keep your bones strong. But it doesn't matter how much calcium you intake if you're not sending your body the demand signal that says I need dense bones. Yes, that demand signal is strength training.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's a lady I was trying to find her name on YouTube, and I she has taught me so very much. I think she is in her mid-50s, but she's got parents in their 80s, and she started strength training with her parents. Her mother was hunched over, couldn't walk without a walker. Her dad was a little bit better off, but Nathan, you talk about bone density. After the strength training, they did bone density tests, and I think her bone, her mom's bone density increased and increased 6%. And um, her mom is now walking unaided, no cane, no walkers. That's huge, right? And her dad, I think her dad is dadlifting. I want to say 200 pounds.
SPEAKER_00That is a good that's a good look.
SPEAKER_03But it's been so fascinating because I just I just saw clips. I think she's she's been doing this for a year, maybe two, but I just saw a clip of what they look like in the beginning and what they look like now, and they're just standing, their posture is different. Yeah, you know, mom, her mom walking unaided. You can just see a difference, you can totally see a difference in them externally. So I I was thinking as Nathan and I were talking, I was like, okay, how do we get here? Well, we got here because that's a form of self-free.
SPEAKER_01It is. And if your your purpose for training is to be in the service of others, that's a form of love for others too. You're you're okay.
SPEAKER_03So, yes, to be in the service of others, and I do love to help people on the airplane. I help other people, whether it's a a mom traveling with kids or someone who's just got their hands full or whatever. I'll I can I can lift my suitcase up in the thing. I don't I don't have a problem with that. Um, but so you're saying in the service of others, what if I need to work out so my kids don't have to take care of me?
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. And it for me, it's been in the in the public safety realm, it's always been like I my thought process, not only for patients, but for my partners, has been if one of my partners goes down, I need to be able to take care of them. I need to be able to get them out of a bad situation, and they need to know that that is what's going to happen. And a part of that is my physical fitness.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So there's a yeah, I think a lot of reasons for us to take care of our bodies. And I just got so disconnected from my body that I put on a lot of weight, that I did move my body, and that is not a good combination, it's not an easy thing to come out of, but it's it's not something that it's not a place where I have to stay.
SPEAKER_01It is not, it is not, and I think one thing that makes that challenging for us, especially in America, is a there's this real prevalence of highly processed, artificially calorie-dense food that's difficult. Absolutely, and then many of us have jobs which keep us sedentary, and that human machine's a curse, yeah. Yeah, and that human machine curse, but that human machine was not made to be sedentary, we're made to move around and lift stuff and move stuff, and yeah, um, but that can make it really hard for sure.
SPEAKER_03So I'm I'm a former smoker, smoked when I was I I quit smoking around around 26 years of age, and now they say sitting is the new smoking, and I'm like, come on now.
SPEAKER_02I gotta quit sitting. Where's the patch for that?
SPEAKER_03There can't be a standing life coach, yeah. But there wasn't a standing therapist, so I you know, I don't know what to do with that. Yeah, um, so anyway, yeah, that's the self-love. I just don't think you can be fully loved. You can't exp you can be fully loved, but you can't fully experience the love of another, nor can you maybe fully love another without self-love. Do you think that's true?
SPEAKER_01I do because I think, and this is completely non-scientific, but I think if you're not exercising your heart, that heart muscle to love yourself, then it's just a a diminished size of itself. So it it like the Grinch, you know?
SPEAKER_03Jim, Jim Carrey immediately came to my mind.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I'm talking Boris Karloff, the real, the real one. Okay, but you know, that idea that yeah, if you've got some love, then it's you know a little bit smaller and it's capable of delivering some, but why not allow that thing to fully just expand and love at its full capacity, and that includes yourself.
SPEAKER_03Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It's yeah.
SPEAKER_01And if you're gonna become if you're gonna recognize your own foibles and your own faults and choose to love yourself anyway, you're building a habit and it makes it that much easier to do that with someone else. You look at them and go, oh, they're a human too. Yeah, they've got a little boy or a little girl inside them too. That's right. Oh, he's probably she's probably afraid right now and responding from her fear.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_01And anger or judgment is not gonna help that fear, it's gonna pour fuel on the fire, that false fire of fear. Instead, that's right. What if we just chose to love them?
SPEAKER_03That's right. That's right. What if, Nathan? What if we did just choose to love them? Yeah, yeah. I think, and we're gonna start winding down as we covered one topic.
SPEAKER_02So good.
SPEAKER_03One topic out of four.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Well, we've got four for another day.
SPEAKER_03Why did we think we could cover love?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03It's so funny because love is a huge topic. It's so big, it's a huge topic. So I don't know where I was even going, but I hope you go on the journey of loving yourself so that you can love and be loved more fully by others. And and so, yeah, you can just more fully engage in life and more fully engage in your blueprint, who God called you to be. I'm telling you, um, my life has drastically changed since I started um becoming an identity coach. And I I learned, I learned more about my way more about my identities. And and once I got like, I don't know, once I focused on my identities and God just did a lot of healing through that journey, Nathan, of getting identities, bringing me spiritual children. And I don't want to be, I don't want to be an un an unhealthy spiritual mama to my spiritual children. Because if I don't fully love myself, then I'm gonna question the quality of mama-ness to my spiritual children and to my bio children.
SPEAKER_01You're also modeling that bio children, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. So don't give up the journey of self-love. I know it's hard. I know, like, oh, it's a whole other topic, but we all have those internal critics that say, Oh, yeah, look at did you see what you just did? Like, like, you know, that wasn't very nice of you, or what were you thinking? That internal critic is very judgmental. Um, and that's a that's a topic we've already covered a little bit when we talked about internal family systems. But I just want to encourage everybody to love who God created you to be, flaws and all, because we all have the flaws, and God uses God uses those flaws, you know. I love this example. I I did give a sermon one time. This was inspired by Joyce Myers, and I brought um like a vase in, and there were some cracks in the vase, and the I put some lights in the vase. Like without the cracks in the vase, the light can't get in, right? And so it's people who lead with a limp, people wounded people, man. Wounded, there's we're all wounded healers, right? We are all wounded healers. Um yeah, Nathan's a wounded healer, I'm a wounded healer. Even the Lord, you know, if you if you want to go deep, and that's a big one. The Lord is a wounded healer, he took great wounds in sacrificing his life for us. Yeah, so yeah, being healed, being the best version of yourself is important for yourself and for others who love you. Do you have any other like closing thoughts? I I feel like Nathan, with many of our talks, many of our podcasts, I feel like, man, how did we land up here? How did we wind up here? And is this even gonna make any sense to anybody? But then, you know, I'm the checker, I'm the podcast checker.
SPEAKER_02He is the podcast checker. Yep.
SPEAKER_03After every podcast I listen, he's the podcast releaser, yep, and the titler, and I'm a podcast checker. So I listen to us, and he gets so tickled because I can get tickled at a lot of things. But Nathan gets really tickled because I'll I'll either usually text him or audio text him or something afterwards to tell him, you know, it's okay. We did it's fine, it's good to good to release it. And I'm like, Nathan, I laugh so hard at us when we said this or said that. And I'm like, he's like, Sherry, you crack me up laughing at yourself.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is one of the just the purest pleasures in my life is watching her crack up at herself, cracking up.
SPEAKER_00It is, I don't even know how to describe how wonderful it is.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it was so funny last night, Nathan. I went to, as you know, I went to hear um a prophetic speaker, and oh my gosh, our laughs were pinging off of each other, and you know, it's not uncommon for people's heads to turn when I laugh because I just I laugh, you know? So it's like a full-body laugh or whatever. But it was just, he was just this guy was so filled with his spirit. So there was a lot of laughter there last night. So, and laughter, you guys, laughter is therapy. Oh, yeah. Laughter is therapy, laughter is medicine, laughter, joy. Joy is good for us. Yeah. Any closing thoughts? I ask you that, and then I think I think I kept talking.
SPEAKER_01Uh, the only thing that came to my mind while you were talking is that that song, Come On, People Now, smile on your brother. Everybody get together, try and love one another right now.
SPEAKER_03I love that. I love that. That is a good song.
SPEAKER_01All right. Yes. Want to do some gratitude?
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_01Did you go first last time or did I?
SPEAKER_03I think you did. And Nathan, I am forever forgetting to prepare my gratitude.
SPEAKER_01Well, that makes them spontaneous.
SPEAKER_03I know, right? And I I I yeah, I practice gratitude all the time because I think that's a game changer for our brains, right? It's a game changer for our brains. What am I grateful for today? I am grateful for all that I see God doing in my life, in my business, with my spiritual kids. I'm just, I'm just grateful for life in general. Um yeah, I'm grateful for. I'm grateful that I serve. Nathan and I always joke about the tissues being on the table.
SPEAKER_01You guys, I get she middle names me when I bring the tissues and put them on her side, and she's like, Well, what makes you think I'm gonna need them?
SPEAKER_02I don't know, Sharon. Almost like I've spent a little time with you.
SPEAKER_00Sometime I'll have to tell you guys the story about when she cried in session with me. If I haven't already said that, that was a good one.
SPEAKER_03You've said it once. It was pretty funny. Oh, laughter's also good when you need just some leveling out of the heaviness. Yeah. Yeah, oh, absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um I forgot.
SPEAKER_02Okay, we're gonna come back to Sherry.
SPEAKER_04No, we're not.
SPEAKER_02Oh, no, we're gonna stay on Sherry. She has the talking stick. No one can take talk when Sherry has the talking stick. You can't take it either. I didn't know we had she has the sharing feeling stick.
SPEAKER_04I didn't know we had a talking stick, Nathan.
SPEAKER_01We do know. It's a rain stick for people who are wondering.
SPEAKER_03It's a what?
SPEAKER_01A rain stick, you know. A rain stick. Turn it upside down, it sounds like rain.
SPEAKER_03Um, I do not know what you're talking about. Okay, okay. All right, I have done so well. Not losing it in laughter for the last couple of hours.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you have.
SPEAKER_03And I think I'm maxing out that. I think what I was trying to say earlier. Is it up?
SPEAKER_02All right, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. All right, well, I'm grateful for Sherry's laughter, which is just an absolute riot.
SPEAKER_01But what I was gonna say is, I am grateful that I live in a country that allows me to learn things about my own health, and that there are people that if you if you make the right connections, you can work with them to intervene in your health and and you know improve your position in a in a deliberate way, as opposed to just having to live with it and sort of you know suffer through it, which in many cases or also at many different times in in our history would be exactly what you would need to do. So that's what I'm grateful for.
SPEAKER_04That's really good, Nathan.
SPEAKER_03I was doing so good. You were doing so well pulling it together while you were talking. Okay, here's the deal. I'm a little trigger happy today. Because I went to this prophetic event last night and I didn't get home until 12:30. And yeah, so a little tired today, but laughter, man, laughter is good medicine. I'm not ever gonna apologize for laughing. But what my gratitude was is that I'm just thankful that I serve a God, that I lovingly, sincerely call the hound dog of heaven. Because it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_02I'm not by province here's what you guys need to know. Sometimes that uh that laughter unlocks some tears.
SPEAKER_04Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh boy, does it in the best possible way.
SPEAKER_03Does it ever? Does it ever? I'm just eternally grateful that I serve a God who I lovingly refer to as the hound dog of heaven. A god who did not give up on me, who hasn't given up on me, and will never give up on me.
SPEAKER_04And I've gone around some mountains a couple times, you know? Yeah, as we all have, right?
SPEAKER_01And that's because he has unconditional love for you and for everyone, and he sees the very best in us.
SPEAKER_04Yes, he does.
SPEAKER_03So I think it's a good place, a good time to get tears over the love, right? Because love was our topic. Yeah, the love that he has for us, because I I was definitely a prodigal, a runner for a while. I would I would tell him when I was like in my mid-20s, I'd be like, I'm too old for that stuff, I got partying left to do. You know, that was the traumatized me for sure. And I was a smoker, I didn't want to give up smoking. But oh man, for anybody who thinks, for anybody who thinks following being a Jesus follower, for anyone who thinks that's boring and not fun, oh man, I beg to differ. I I've had the time of my life, not that life hasn't been hard, but I've had the time of my life being a follower of Christ um and having the best sober fun. If you could have been there last night, you know, Nathan, at that event with Nathan French, the prophetic guy, his laughter, whoo! I I think I told you a few minutes ago, his he and I pinged off of each other because he's got a good laugh. And um yeah, it's like called being drunk in the spirit, just drunk with the spirit of joy. So, anyway, that's those are the things I'm grateful for.
SPEAKER_00That's really good. Really good.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we are grateful for you. You've chosen again to spend some time with us. We know that your time is limited. We certainly hope that you took something valuable away from it, and we hope you'll come and join us again on Divine and Most Unlikely.