Divine & Most Unlikely
We are all about being real, vulnerable, and pouring out the love of our heavenly Father. We will discuss trauma, healing, therapy, faith, hope, and more! Both from a male, (the boy) and the female (the mother) perspective. It is our intention to bring healing to those who need it, and encourage everyone to discover the divine peace that comes when we learn how to live our most abundant lives. Our podcast verse is John 10:10, and we are here to help you take back ALL THAT THE ENEMY OF YOUR SOUL has stolen. Nathan adds "guns up.......". We are so glad that you decided to come along for the journey of hearing how God brought two most unlikely people to partner together to serve A CAUSE FOR THE KINGDOM.
Divine & Most Unlikely
Communication
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In this episode we discuss:
- Various methods we use to communicate.
- Speaker/Listener technique.
- Undoing the right vs. wrong mindset.
- Co-dependency.
- Contrasting discussion with arguing or fighting.
If you feel triggered by any information in this podcast, or if you feel led to start your own therapeutic healing journey, please visit psychologytoday.com to find a mental health therapist in your area.
If you are having suicidal thoughts, please call 911 or 988 for support. You can also visit 988lifeline.org for more resources, and information.
Remember.....YOU MATTER!
To schedule a discovery session with Sherri, please go to Elevatetoabundantlife.com.
The information provided in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. We are not responsible for any losses, damages, or liabilities that may arise from the use of this podcast. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Divine and Most Unlikely. You're spending some time with us, Sherry Conran, Nathan Bonesteel. Today we're talking a little bit about communication. And Sherry and I chose this topic because it's so important. We communicate with other people, you know, throughout our day for various reasons personal, professional. And it's something where if we don't get our communication right, it can lead to some significant misunderstandings, some friction in relationships that you know doesn't need to be there. And often I think when we're considering communication, we think about what the sender is doing. You know, you're choosing your words, hopefully, you're being mindful of things like facial expression, tone of voice, the rate at which you're speaking, all those things, body language.
SPEAKER_03Right, because there's a plethora of ways in which we communicate.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Right?
SPEAKER_03And you just mentioned some of those.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Um, a quote that I heard a couple years ago that I really like is communication is what the listener does. And I think the reason I like that so much is it shifts my mindset from not necessarily just what am I saying, how am I encoding the message, but how is the recipient going to decode the message.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And there's like a really simple example of that is when I was in paramedic school eons ago, one of the things they told us is for us, it was really important that we understood and utilized medical terminology appropriately. Right. So when we documented we were supposed to use medical terminology, sure. When we were communicating with other medical professionals, that made it easier. But you don't necessarily want to do that with patients.
SPEAKER_03Right, because patients don't always understand, right?
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_03And they're in an probably in an anxious state, having to had to call an ambulance for whatever reason, right?
SPEAKER_02And using polysyllabic words is not necessarily therapeutic. So uh that's like one one simple thing. And then uh Sherry, you you brought up that today I brought over I brought over some licorice.
SPEAKER_03You did.
SPEAKER_02Because I love licorice and I was really excited about it. And so I told you, hey, I brought over some licorice today, and then I said, Do you like licorice? And if if we had been recording, what you would have heard was a pause, but what you missed was the facial expression, and the facial expression was I don't like licorice. And so I knew right there that she didn't like licorice.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yep. You're like, never mind, never mind, already got the answer. And I was like, Well, it says Australian, it says Australian licorice. So I thought, I've never had Australian licorice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, maybe if it's from Day Onanda, it's different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that may be so I thought, you know, I I'm gonna try it because it could be different, and maybe it's in my head, because sometimes, Nathan, when I think I don't like things, I've really never tried it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah. I know, I know, I know some people like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's not you, right?
SPEAKER_02But you know, spoiler, she did not like the licorice.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I did not. I did not. I did try to try, yeah. I did try, yeah, but yeah, he got that message really quickly because I didn't have to say a word. He got he just read the expression on my face. And so so often we communicate even before we think we're communicating. So trying to be mindful of what your facial expression is, about what your posture of your body is, right? So, so often, man, could I read the room when couples would come in for couples therapy? And you know, either one or both would sit on the couch with their arms crossed, right? Like, hmm, I really don't want to be here. And to be honest with you, I would say eight times out of ten, it was the man who had his arms crossed. Because eight times out of ten, the woman is like, you know, the wife is like, we're going to therapy. That's it. We need help, you know. And the men are like, fine, if I have to, I'll go to therapy. So, yeah. So body language speaks volumes. And so I teach clients about that. Uh-oh, what's this face for?
SPEAKER_02This face is years ago, there was a TV show on called the Red Green Show. And they had kind of like a man's club. These are Canadian men, though, so it's a little bit of a different flavor.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_02And they at the beginning they'd begin the club with the men's oath, which was, I'm a man, but I can change if I have to, I guess.
SPEAKER_03That sounds about right. Canadian or not. That sounds about right. Yes. I agree. Yes. Um, thankfully, some men, like you, Nathan, are geared for growth, you know? Um, and women. Some women are geared for growth. Not everyone is geared for growth, like a growth mindset. And I just think a growth mindset is so important to have. And I I texted you a quote this morning that I heard from a podcast, and it was we may look like our parents when we're born, but when we die, we look like our. Do you remember the last?
SPEAKER_02We look like our diseases.
SPEAKER_03No, our decisions. Oh, our decisions.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Okay. All right. Slightly different meaning there. See? Look, we we tightened up our communication right there.
SPEAKER_03We sure did. But here, listen, our decisions can cause.
SPEAKER_02They certainly can cause disease. Yep.
SPEAKER_03Seriously, like if we make a decision to have a really negative mindset, that can cause depression.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Right? Yep.
SPEAKER_03So seriously. You guys.
SPEAKER_02As she says, as she says it, she's laughing. Seriously, guys. Seriously, though.
SPEAKER_03I have had a case of the giggles. This is like our second time trying this podcast today. So, you know, I kind of am just gonna say it is what it is, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So bear with me if you hear more giggles than this one. Um, okay, so lots of different ways to communicate. Let's talk about some different ways that we communicate with each other. We've already talked about facial expression.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and there's there's a lot to that too. You know, one of the things that I'm cognizant of is I am generally pretty good at maintaining a neutral face. Where I have a hard time is when someone says something that's exceptionally stupid, I have a tendency to what I want to do is squint at them like, are you kidding me? Um, and then something that I think I do and I'm not aware of it necessarily, is even if I'm able to arrest the very overt squint, right? I think I might like have some micro expressions on my face that that give it away. Yeah. So I think there's there's that. Eye contact is a component that's gonna vary culture to culture.
SPEAKER_03For sure.
SPEAKER_02In the US, I think some eye contact like 70% of the time in a conversation is probably where it's comfortable for most people. If you're staring at a person a hundred percent of the time, that can be intense. It gets real weird if you're not on like a romantic candlelit dinner thing, you know what I mean? Even then it can be a little weird. So, but but also not enough eye contact might communicate a message that you're not intending to send. That said, though, there's different cultural considerations for sure for that.
SPEAKER_03For sure, for sure. So, yeah, eye contact, facial expressions, body language, right? Yeah, um, actions that we might do with our body, yeah, choices we might make, choices, our choices can communicate things, and then actual language, actual like what we're doing right now, talking back and forth, using words.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, with with voice, I also think of a couple of other things.
SPEAKER_03I think about volume, yes, yes, tone, yes, and then rate of speech.
SPEAKER_02Yes, you know, yes, so like if you hear someone speaking in a higher tone of voice more rapidly, you kind of think, oh, that person's probably a little bit worked up. Right. Whereas if they have a lower tone of voice and they're speaking a little more slowly, that communicates more like calm and confidence. Right. I think one of the important things about acknowledging that is that that's a modifiable factor. You can be freaked out, right? But you can teach yourself, even while you're freaked out, for sure to speak with a lower tone of voice and a slower rate of speech. And it's kind of interesting to me because in that using that method, yes, it impacts those around you, and that's really important. I would say, especially in a leadership role. Right. But the other thing is when you choose to do that, you can exercise some top-down influence on yourself.
SPEAKER_03So good, Nathan. Tell us what you're talking about with top-down influence.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm what I mean is you might feel internally freaked out, right? And but when you make the conscious choice to speak more slowly and in a lower tone, you are hearing that yourself.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And when you are yourself hearing that, you can kind of down-regulate that feeling of stressed and you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So when you in your prefrontal cortex are deciding to moderate, moderate, manage your tone that you're using, you're it you're telling your nervous system, you're teaching your nervous system to have a different response, is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00That's cool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, very cool. And very true, but we have to first practice mindfulness so that we can become aware of all of that's going on in in our brain and in our bodies, right? Yeah, we have to become aware. And I, as we're talking, I'm just thinking about this example when my kids were younger. You know, if I um if I said like, you know, Michelle Lee Ann, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh boy.
SPEAKER_03Oh boy, yeah, that communicates something, doesn't it? It sure does.
SPEAKER_00I'm in trouble.
SPEAKER_03Yep, it communicates I'm in trouble. Or if I were to say, you know, Tiffany Sarah, um, you know, whatever, whatever, they would think um, yeah, that they'd done something wrong, or or no, that they're gonna be in trouble.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and yeah, yeah, and and I'm gonna tell you there's an escalation pattern there. So it's the first name.
SPEAKER_03Right, right.
SPEAKER_02The second step in the escalation ladder is the middle name. And the the final step that you don't want to get to is when you get the the first, middle, and last name. That's it.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You've gotten that a handful of times from your spiritual mama. And and and when I say when I use his um his first and middle name, and he's like, Yes, mama. It's pretty funny. Yeah. You gotta exercise that parental voice.
SPEAKER_01You sure do.
SPEAKER_03That parental voice every now and then, right? Yeah, yeah, to get to get kids' attention, kids' attention. Um, okay, let's talk a little bit about uh speaker-listener technique.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03When I worked with couples and with people in general, it's something that I would teach because we don't slow down sometimes enough or we haven't just we just haven't been taught this, right? And it's a it's a way to communicate that I think is so beautiful. And when I would work with couples, they would hate it because it would they would have to slow down. They couldn't have this really quick conversation with one another. They would have to slow down. And so speaker-listener technique is comprised of uh the speaker saying something, and then the listener paraphrasing what they heard the speaker say, and then the uh speak the listener would say, Did I get that right?
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so let's just kind of use the licorice example for a minute.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So so you said, Sherry, do you want some licorice? Yeah. And even without a verbal response, you got the you got the answer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And and then you were like, Oh, nope, Sherry, it's okay. I can see that you don't like the licorice, I don't I can see you don't like licorice. And so you were telling me what you heard, even though it was just uh it was just a facial expression.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03Right? And so we want to be really sure that the listener is hearing what the speaker is saying because here's the thing, Nathan, we all have different life experiences, yes, and we all have different beliefs about life, right? I recently just had a conversation with someone and I completely assumed their motives, their intentions based on my experiences with that person, based on probably my life experiences. And I had made a ton of assumptions that were completely off base, right? Yeah, and so we really do have to slow down when we're trying to communicate to one another. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03And so the first part of speaker listener is the speaker says something and then they say, What did you hear me say?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and let me, I want to just interrupt in that thing to say one important part. Yeah, many times when someone is not speaking in a conversation, it's not they're not listening necessarily. Often what they're doing is they're formulating a response and then they're waiting for when they can insert that response. That's right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So on the listener side of that, you actually have to quiet your own internal dialogue. A hundred. Quiet your own internal voice. You have to set aside the response. You'll get there, you'll get to a response. But for right now, if you're practicing this, you are actually just listening. You're listening and paying attention for what the speaker is saying.
SPEAKER_03That's right. And what I would often do with couples is I would have them hold something like a pen. And this like the speaker has the floor. Yeah. And so whoever is speaking, they have the floor, and that does mean the listener just has to listen to what is being said and work not to create that defensive response, right? Because it's not about be who's right or wrong.
SPEAKER_02Oh my, can you say that one again louder for the people in the back?
SPEAKER_03Right. It's not about who's right or wrong.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I spent so I wasted so many years of my life worried about right or wrong. And I think, and I've talked to you about this before, but I where I feel most badly about it is in romantic relationships and when I was married, because there was a time early on when I was married when I was more thinking about right or wrong. And by the way, it didn't necessarily mean that I needed to be right, but I was very concerned about finding which was right, and therefore the other thing was wrong. Right? And sometimes that was me, obviously, but I was just very concerned about that. And I've told you in sort of like uh confession style, like I wish I would not have been so focused on that. I wish that what I would have done is just listen to understand, right, and then sort of meet her where she was at because it actually isn't the vast majority of the time, it isn't about right or wrong because it's not black and white. Right. There's a full spectrum of color, and you don't like licorice. That doesn't make you right and me wrong, it just means you don't like licorice.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02So then I shouldn't force you to have licorice if you don't like it.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I find you a snack that you do like, and then I have more licorice for me, you know? But it's not about right or wrong, it's not it's about working together toward a common objective and sort of harmony and right.
SPEAKER_03And you can't we can't do what we don't know, Nathan. And where does this get taught? Did you learn this in high school?
SPEAKER_02The the can that communication isn't about right or wrong? Yeah, no, as a matter of fact, I would say through school, maybe not directly, but indirectly, I think through school is where I learned that right or wrong was important. Because when you're in school, what do you do? You take tests and quizzes, right? And there's one right answer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And then by definition, everything that's not the right answer is the wrong answer.
SPEAKER_03Sure.
SPEAKER_02And we get taught that over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. I it just makes me so sad that we don't have, and you know, I've been out of school for a long time now, but I said I don't think even today, I think it's actually gotten worse to be.
SPEAKER_00She said she's been out of school for a long time, but I just want to let you know she's a perennial student, so that's not exactly accurate.
SPEAKER_03Continue. Um, I think that we've never been taught how to do communication. We've not been taught how to do relationships. We weren't, I wasn't taught, you know, how to manage money. I wasn't taught all the different things. You know, and now typically our family of origin is supposed to teach this. And when you grow up in trauma, that does not get taught, right? Yeah, and many families, I think, whether it's trauma or not, it doesn't get taught, right? So we come out of our family of origin, out of our childhood, and we do communication the way we learned how you know how our parents did it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so that's like your default setting. Your default training is whatever you learn in your family of origin. Yes, effective or ineffective, healthy or unhealthy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's just that's right.
SPEAKER_03That's what you bring forth. And I'm gonna say nine point nine times out of ten, when I would do a family genogram, which is the family map, you know, if if you're a couple coming in, I would look at your family history and her family history, and I could see 9.9 times out of 10, I could see what drew you together and what causes the conflict that brought you into my office.
SPEAKER_02Can you give us an example of both of those things?
SPEAKER_03Like what Yep, I'll try my best. It's been a minute since I've worked with couples, but okay, I'll I'll I was gonna say I'll use myself. I try to not talk about my ex-husbands too terribly much.
SPEAKER_04Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03But it is my that's my experience. Um okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm just gonna make some things up. So if someone grows up in a codependent family, okay, it's really my family. So I'm not making it up. If someone grows up in a codependent family, they're going to enter into a codependent relationship. So I grew up in a codependent family, an alcoholic addiction family. And so subconsciously, because that's what I know, I'm attracted to that, and that's how I'm gonna engage with someone.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Does that make sense? Because that's I grew up with my parents trying to constantly get my sister sober, trying to fix her, trying to protect her, all the things. So that's what I'm attracted to. So I'm attracted to someone with addiction, someone with codependent tendencies as well. And sometimes it's the opposite. We're attracted to the opposites, but the opposites come together and just create a toxic pattern as well. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02It does. Something that you shared with me, this was very early on, and I had no idea about this. Like I'd heard the term codependent, and it didn't sound good to me.
SPEAKER_03Um you still don't like it.
SPEAKER_02I still don't like it. It sounds, it just sounds bad, but it's not actually either good or bad.
SPEAKER_03It's not.
SPEAKER_02But something you taught me is first that the origin of the that word had to do with alcoholics, and what the pattern was is that there would be an alcoholic, uh someone who has that alcohol addiction, and then someone very close to them is codependent. So they are like the in their heart, I think they're trying to help that individual. Right. What they end up doing is serving more as an enabler, unintentionally, unknowingly. Yeah. And then so much of their like purpose in life ends up being around. That's right.
SPEAKER_03That's right. I think it can be, Nathan, very much so true with people with addictive problems, addiction problems. Um, but also with mental health problems, you know, have helped people who've had children with mental health issues and just trying to help them have the boundaries with them because as a parent, we don't want to see our children struggle.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_03And so sometimes we go overboard and we do try to, you know, try to fix their problems and we just don't have the ability to fix their problems.
SPEAKER_02And isn't there no, you gotta correct me if I'm wrong because I'm just a dude, but isn't there also this like thing where in in relationships often the a not great match is a narcissist with someone who's codependent?
SPEAKER_03Yes, Nathan. That happens often. Narcissistic people with the full-blown diagnosis or with tendencies absolutely attract codependent people.
SPEAKER_02And codependent people are attracted to people with either the the people with the full diagnosis or narcissistic tendencies.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's a lethal man, it's a lethal combo. It's lethal because with narcissists, oh they're experts at making you feel like something's wrong with you. Right? And you're he's currently having flashbacks. Yep.
SPEAKER_00Good thing this is not a video podcast.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yep, yeah, yep, Well, the good news is, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02I I'm I'm aware.
SPEAKER_03You're aware. Yes.
SPEAKER_02And I survived it.
SPEAKER_03You did survive. And you're on the other side of it. That's the even better news that you're on the other side of it.
SPEAKER_02I ain't going back.
SPEAKER_03You ain't going back. Says the boy and the man, maybe.
SPEAKER_02All right. So want to maybe reorient on speaker-listener.
SPEAKER_03Yes. And I think, Nathan, the more I think about it, I think it would be good to do a demonstration of it. What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that sounds good.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Let's make up a scenario. Um, can you think of a scenario?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, where do you want to have dinner?
SPEAKER_03Oh, where do I want to have dinner? You know where I want to have dinner.
SPEAKER_02I do know where you want to have dinner.
SPEAKER_03My favorite place. It's kind of becoming my favorite Sunday place.
SPEAKER_02And you're probably their favorite.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you're so sweet. And they have the best staff there. We're talking about, if you're local, we're talking about Keonta Grill in Burnsville. And I think they have another location.
SPEAKER_02I think they do too, I guess.
SPEAKER_03In the northern suburbs somewhere. But they have the best food. And I sadly order the same thing all the time, but it's it is delicious. Okay, so let's practice speaker listener. So I will I will start. So, Nathan, I know we talked about going out to dinner after the podcast today.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03Where were you thinking you wanted to go?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I don't know. You know, I was kind of thinking about maybe Asian, but then Italian's always good. I want something meaty. I need some, I need some good meat, you know, some good protein.
SPEAKER_03Some good meat. Okay. So I hear you saying that when you were thinking about going out to dinner, that you you were thinking like Asian or Italian, and you're really set on getting a lot of protein in with good meat. Because you you and I are both meat people. We we like some good meat. We like a good steak for sure. Yeah. So, okay. Did did I hear you correctly? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02You got it right.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So I love that you like, like I said, we're we're very similar and like we want some a good cut of meat, um, whether it's Italian, Asian, etc. And so I I love that. I hear you saying that you're open to Italian, and guess what? My favorite restaurant, Chiante, has Italian. Would you be open to going there?
SPEAKER_02I would, yeah, that sounds great. Okay. I'd love that.
SPEAKER_03Okay. All right. So that was a pretty simple example, right? Um, and you you talked about that you were hungry, you wanted to go out to dinner tonight after the podcast, and I just heard you say that you wanted to go out to dinner, and then I repeated what I heard you say, the different kinds of restaurants. So, again, that was a pretty simple example. Now it can get a little bit more complex, right? Let's let's think about a couple that is maybe they're having a oh finances is always a good one. Yeah, over finances. So let's think about a couple who maybe uh why do these real life examples come to my mind all the time? I just had a conversation with my daughter yesterday that that I might have some ADHD, and I'm like, she was talking about all the symptoms, because that's just not something that I worked with as a therapist because I feel like you needed to be kind of specialized to work with that, and she was telling me all the symptoms like um procrastination and impulsivity and you know, different things like that, and I'm like, and she's like, Yeah, mom, the impulsivity with your shopping, and like I have procrastination doing notes and doing my billing, you know. And so anyway, um I'm not sure where I was going with that, but oh, spending, spending, like having a conversation, like a complicated conversation in a relationship with spending.
SPEAKER_01Do you want me to you want me to you want me to do the husband on this one?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02Okay, dear.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_02I just looked at our credit card bill today, and I noticed uh that's it's a little higher than it normally is. And I specifically noticed that there appear to be have been about $500 spent uh at this this store that I know you you like to go to. Can you tell me a little bit about that?
SPEAKER_03You're playing a very nice husband, and by the way, his facial expressions were pretty funny. Like he was like, his eyes were really big, and like he was trying to control his tone.
SPEAKER_00He was trying to control his tone, yes.
SPEAKER_03Yes, so um, so yes, Nathan, I heard you say, Oh, now I'm getting a tilted head and a side eye look. Nathan, I heard you say that you saw our credit card bill and that you're very concerned about a $500 charge at my favorite store. Is that what you said?
SPEAKER_04That's what I said, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, we've talked about how much I'm allowed to oh now his arms. His arms are crossing. Well, you know, we've talked about how much I'm allowed to spend every month. And I thought we had an agreement that, you know, I could spend around $500 a month on different things that I need.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, you're you're right. We we definitely do have that agreement. You're right. I'm you know what? I I kind of forgot about that. You're right. My concern is we got to put tires on your truck now for the winter. And I was hoping to be able to, you know, utilize some of that, but you're right. And and the thing is, I didn't bring that up. I it was in my head.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I was gonna say, you've not talked to me about that before. I didn't know I needed tires. And Nathan, the purse the purse I found.
SPEAKER_02Yes, please tell me more about the purse you found.
SPEAKER_03The purse I found was so cute. And tires were not on my mind.
SPEAKER_02And tires are not cute, they probably don't go with many ear options.
SPEAKER_03No, they don't. They don't.
SPEAKER_02But I'll bet that purse does, though.
SPEAKER_03The purse does. The purse does.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, I do I do want my wife to be happy, so I'm glad that you found a nice purse.
SPEAKER_03Okay, Nathan, you're not making this example go very well because you're being so nice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think most husbands would be, or many husbands maybe would be like, what? $500 on a purse? And Nathan and I were just talking about purses before the podcast. He's like, Sherry, I've never entered a woman's purse before.
SPEAKER_02No, that is a that is a no-fly zone. I will bring the purse to a woman so that she may retrieve whatever item it is she wants.
SPEAKER_03But you don't dare, you don't dare take a deep dive.
SPEAKER_02No, absolutely not. There are things in there that I don't want to know about and probably won't understand.
SPEAKER_03Could be true, could be true, but it's not scary. It's not a scary thing, Nathan.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness, we are just something today. I don't, I don't know what we are today. But so it's just really important to understand what, whether it's a colleague, whether it's a spouse, a dating relationship, whether it's parental and children, it's really important to use good, healthy communication skills. And so I want to go back. Let's try to just go back to speaker later. We're trying to model, and we did model it a little bit, right? It's just really important that you repeat back what you hear the person saying because of family of origin differences. And and like if you are a couple, or if it's even with a colleague at work, you had different family of origin experiences, right? And those beliefs and examples that you grew up with are going to come into play with how you learn how to communicate. Yeah, right. And so there was not a lot of healthy communication, obviously, in my family. So I did not learn that at all. And when I think, you know, we always go back to trauma because we have that history, but when you do have trauma growing up in your childhood, um, you can come away with a lot of mistaken beliefs. We talk about mistaken beliefs a lot, right? Like not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy, not feeling loved. Yeah, and those are pretty negative mistaken beliefs. And so I think when we try to communicate along the way in life, you can have some pretty negative interpretations.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, right? And that may not necessarily be because of what the sender said, it just is how we receive it.
SPEAKER_03The filter, the filter, the lens that we the lenses that we look through, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you you sent me a quote one time which I saved, I thought it was really powerful. And it was something like wounded people don't listen with their ears, yeah, they listen with their triggers. And I just thought that was really powerful. And then to recognize, yes, that might be true for me, but it also might be true for a lot of other people with whom I'm interacting. And so that I gotta give them the same.
SPEAKER_03That's right. We talk a lot about the conversations that you have at work, especially conversations with um women. Yes, yep. And it can be difficult more difficult for you because you don't always understand the female brain. That's right, which is common, right? Women don't always understand the male brain either. Right, right. You know, I certainly didn't understand the male brain when I was married, and I'd be like, you know, I vividly remember asking my second husband, like, hey, what's on your mind, right? And he would say nothing, and I'd be like, No, really, what's on your mind? And he'd be like, nothing. And I'd be like, Okay, fine, I guess you just don't want to talk to me. You just don't want to tell me what's on your mind. And and as a therapist, I've learned that you have a a nothing square, a nothing waffle square, right? Women, we don't have a nothing square, right? Yeah we have everything everywhere all the time, right? And so that can be it can be tough to understand that men have a nothing square and they can literally have nothing on their minds, right? So, women, just be aware that sometimes, you know, when you're talking to your significant other, your colleague, your spouse, whatever the case may be, that sometimes they may not have anything on their mind, and we just don't, we don't, we have a difficult time as a woman understanding that concept, right?
SPEAKER_02One of the things I find myself doing at work a lot with that speaker listener thing is I'll say, and it's just a version of what you already demonstrated. But what I'll say is, hey, can I repeat this back to make sure that I understood it correctly?
SPEAKER_00Beautiful, beautiful.
SPEAKER_02And the reason I use that phraseology is I want to put it on me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like it's either I understood correctly or I didn't, not the sender, it's on me.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what I find is that people will be very attentive when you are essentially paraphrasing their own words. Because they're gonna be, they will, they want to make sure that you heard it correctly.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. And I again I just think that's a really good thing, a really good habit to get into, especially in more intimate personal relationships, because we get more easily triggered by one another. Yes. Do you know what I mean? We get more easily triggered by one another. So it's it's important to just tell your partner what you're hearing them say and making sure that you're hearing them correctly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, another one thing I want to say about communication, and it's on that same speaker-listener thing, is now this is a very different gear change, it's a different environment. But I think about aviation, you know, we're talking over radios, right? And so there's a lot of inherent communication problems that come along with that. And one of them is hearing letters and numbers correctly. So it's easy to say 63, but over the air, that could sound like maybe 53. And I don't know what he said. Sure. So, you know, a common practice is you can say 63, but then you have to say 6'3. So you're enunciating those letters.
SPEAKER_03The digits, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then you know, a controller might say, I'm just making up a tail number here, but a controller might say, hey, 4576 alpha, climb maintain one, three thousand. So that's the command to climb to and maintain 13,000 feet. And then the aircraft is gonna say uh 13,000 for 76 alpha or whatever I said the tail number was, I don't remember. But the right tail number.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so you're you're repeating back that information to them to let them know I understood.
SPEAKER_03That's a good example. A good example of exactly what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_02And the controller is listening for you. And if you didn't say something correctly, they'll they'll let you know. And it's it's no big deal, but they'll they'll correct you and make sure that you heard the thing correctly.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's good. That's really good. Um, I want to go back to again, like paraphrasing and making sure. And it's hard for people to slow down enough to do that, to slow down the conversation enough to do that. And it's not about who's right or wrong, it is about what lenses are you looking through and just clarifying, doing the back and forth until we hear each other correctly.
SPEAKER_02Where do the lenses come from that you're looking through?
SPEAKER_03Good question. The lenses come from the family of origin, right? With how how your parents did communication, how conflict was resolved, right?
SPEAKER_02There's also your previous life experience.
SPEAKER_03Yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_02Whatever wounds you're carrying that happen. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. So for me, and and probably in both marriages, I don't remember the first marriage so much because um it was a million years ago, and we were only married, I think, for three, four years, so not married for very long. Um, but in the second marriage, I definitely look through the lens of my trauma. And he did things, he had behaviors that triggered that trauma. So that that lens stayed pretty thick, pretty solid. Do you know what I mean? But I definitely looked through that lens. And I did have a therapist one time say to me, and it kind of made me mad, but it was kind of true. Um he said, Don't bleed on someone who hasn't cut you.
SPEAKER_02Oh, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so my ex-husband was repeating some things that my dad did, and I don't think that therapist fully grasped that, but that I it it's a it's a true phrase, right? Right? If I if I have childhood trauma and you and I are trying to talk about something and you trigger something in me, you might get blasted for something. That's right. That yes, right. Yes, and that causes conflicts with couples because if that were to happen with you and I just as friends, spiritual mom, spiritual son, kind of thing, and and then we like let's say if I say something that triggered you and I I don't acknowledge that you got triggered, you know, it could cause hurt feelings, it could cause a conflict, and then we have to figure out how to resolve that. Yeah, does that make sense?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And the on the recipient side, you might observe, hey, it seems this is the internal conversation you might be having with yourself, but hey, like that response I got seems disproportionate to what I what I sent out. And so you kind of might feel hard done by and that you might feel like that response was unjustified. Right. And maybe that's accurate, but what's more important is to dig in underneath that and learn about why. So noticing that there was a disproportionate response is good, yeah. But instead of responding back in anger, it maybe respond back with some compassion, whatever true compassion you can muster.
SPEAKER_03What's another C?
SPEAKER_02Curiosity. Yes, for sure.
SPEAKER_03For sure. I tell people if you can practice curiosity all the time when you're talking to people, because if I were to say to you um, Nathan, what you said to me really ticked me off versus Nathan, why did you say that to me? That was I I don't understand. Why did you say it like that? Why did you say it?
SPEAKER_02Just even oh, okay. First of all, I got feelings. Just the difference in tone was so different. Yeah, the one kind of like invokes defensiveness, and the other one is like, oh man, I heard her. You know, like that's not a good thing. I don't want to do that.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. And so curiosity can be so so helpful when you're feeling all kinds of feelings about something that was said, just being curious, right? Like even saying, Nathan, I'm curious, you know, why you said the things you said. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, right? Using that phrase, I'm curious. Tell me, tell me about that. Yeah, and I do that often in my personal life and as a uh, you know, an abundant life coach, I'll I'll be like, tell me more. Tell me more about that.
SPEAKER_02Something you've reminded me of, and I think this is starting to ingrain itself a little more, but something you've had to remind me of, especially at work, is I'll get frustrated at an interaction, and then you'll remind me they're responding from their trauma, they're seeing the world through their lenses, and once again, not right or wrong, but it's like, oh, right, yeah, that's right. They are, and I wasn't making allowance for that.
SPEAKER_03Right. Well, Nathan, I think it's a hard thing to remember all the time, right? Well, you you you you have projects that you're managing and planning, and you have missions you're trying to accomplish, and you're wanting to communicate about the mission, and you just want to get the communication done.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03Right. And sometimes because you have a waffle brain, you communicate waffle brain style, and you're communicating to a spaghetti brain. And don't you think now I this is my this is my uh this is my thought about that. Does that frustration mostly happen when you're talking to women versus men?
SPEAKER_02I think, yes, probably it does. It probably does. Um and I think what I've learned is more to like you're saying, downshift and like slow down and allow for some other things to enter into the conversation, some other variables that I wasn't thinking about.
SPEAKER_03Because earlier, too, before the podcast, we were talking about how men are short and to the point, yeah, and women need the story. We need the whole story.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and what we were talking about is like, you know, if one of my friends has they they they have a baby, I might share to a significant other, I might say, Hey, you know, Jim, they Jim and Jesse, they had their baby. And so like that's the end of the story for me. I told you this the whole that's a whole story. Beginning, middle, and end.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02And then, you know, that significant other might go, well, when? And well, I don't know the other day. How much did they weigh? I don't, I don't know how long were they? I wasn't like measuring the thing, I'm just telling you that it was born.
SPEAKER_03Women want all the details. How long was the labor? Right, you know all the things. Is the mama okay? Is everybody okay? We want all the things, and again, you take whatever information you're given and just you're short and succinct.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right. All right, let's go back to speaker listener. So it's not about being who's right or wrong, it is a slower process because the speaker says something, the listener paraphrases, and then if we heard wrong, the speaker has to clarify what we got wrong, and then we do it again, we paraphrase again to make sure we're right. We got it, not that we're right, that we got that we understood correctly, and then the listener has to respond, and then the speaker does the same thing. The speaker has to paraphrase and make sure they heard correctly, and so that goes back and forth, and it's a dance that that we do to find the middle ground.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Right? And so if we go back to your example of if we if we shared finances and we were married or whatever, um, and I spent $500 and you see the $500 charge on the card, I can see, I can see we, you know, we might need to do some work on that, Nathan, because your eyes, your eyes keep getting big. You're like, I might, I might have a partner that might spend $500 on a credit card. You could.
SPEAKER_04You could. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so if we go back to that example, and you say to me, Sherry, I saw this $500 charge, and I'm like, oh my god, Nathan, this purse was so it was I just had to have it. I had to have it. And it and if you then express some concern, oh yeah, you did with the tires. Yeah, like in your mind, you were thinking that we needed to get tires soon, and you had hoped to spend that extra $500 on the tires, and I didn't know you were thinking about the tires.
SPEAKER_02And you didn't know because I didn't tell you.
SPEAKER_03Right. So, so yep, and you acknowledge that. And I might say back to you, oh man, Nathan, I I didn't know we needed new tires up. My brain, you know. Yeah, my brain does not think about tires. My brain thinks about shiny things.
SPEAKER_00Truer words were never spoken.
SPEAKER_03Shiny things, you know, and cute things, yes, and tires are another of those, unless you put some bling on. The hubcaps.
SPEAKER_02I would not put that beyond you. Blingy hubcaps.
SPEAKER_03I do have a blingy license plate holder. You do, I know.
SPEAKER_01You do.
SPEAKER_03So doing that back and forth, like me hearing, oh, you wanted that money for the new tires and me not realizing that, and you acquiesce pretty pretty easy and quickly, like acknowledging you hadn't told me that. So that's that's a very understanding stance to take, but it's not always that simple.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and what I want to go back to on that is heart posture.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's good, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02That heart posture really matters. If your heart posture is listen, in this, someone's right and someone's wrong, and I'm gonna find out who it is. Yeah, that's not that's not really where you want your heart posture to set.
SPEAKER_04That's right.
SPEAKER_02You know, you both have a common goal. Like she doesn't want to bankrupt us, and I don't want to deprive her of shiny things, pretty things that go with the outfits, you know. So you we're neither of us have bad intentions here. We just have a miscommunication. And then, you know, when you when you said the part about, oh, I did I didn't know about the tires, I'm thinking, oh yeah. Because I didn't tell you about it, you know, it's it was in my head. I didn't tell you about it.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. Nathan, just a little side note, and I've told you this before. Um, your future wife is gonna be very grateful. Yes, she is for your time with me because I'm training you well.
SPEAKER_02You yes, you are.
SPEAKER_03I didn't have to do much training though.
SPEAKER_02Uh there was some. There was also a lot of healing that needed to happen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. The healing. But yeah, you you're doing such a good job with being ready for a wife. Mm-hmm. So good job.
SPEAKER_04Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Okay, so speaker, listener, back and forth, make sure you hear each other and you do that dance to the middle ground together, not about being right or wrong. The lens that we look through is so, so important. So when I used to work with couples and they usually both had, you know, a history of trauma or history of unresolved things, whether it was from their family of origin, meaning their parents and their family they grew up in, or whether it was from a prior marriage, right? And so we would have to work on any mistaken beliefs that were present and and then teaching them communication skills. And oftentimes I would send people out to do individual work, or at sometimes at some points, I would see them both individually to do some individual work with them because the lenses that we look through make a big difference. Absolutely, right? Like I grew up in that family of trauma, I did not learn any healthy communication skills, and the lens that I look through quite often was I'm I'm in trouble, not lovable, not good enough, those kind of things. And so when things would come up, and when conflicts would come up between me and my ex-husband, it was often an argument because I think I I felt like I was wrong, I was bad. And I don't think it was necessarily anything he communicated. I think it was that baseline of the trauma and the mistaken beliefs that I was still living through, living out of.
SPEAKER_02And I that word that you said, argument, is a really important one. Now, first of all, I just want to say I'm not anyone, I'm not a person to give anyone any relationship advice, period. End of story. So let me just put that out there.
SPEAKER_03I don't think that's any longer true. Nathan, we learn from our experiences. We should be. Just because you had a challenging experience with someone you dated doesn't mean you can't give relationship advice because you learned from that.
SPEAKER_02Well, and what I wanted to say was about argument. I I want to say, and I I firmly believe that it is possible to have opposing points of view or differing points of view and have a conversation with someone, even a romantic partner, and not have that devolve into an argument or worse, a fight.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_02When I think of fight, I've been in lots of fights in my life. When I was in my like younger 20s, I would act when especially at work, I was like, hell yeah, you want to fight? Let's like I'm not gonna start it, but I'm gonna finish it if you do start it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I remember one specific fight where there was like 11 of us, and we won, obviously.
SPEAKER_03Oh my goodness, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there was like well, yeah, we were a polyester pile on this one dude. We won. But at the end of it, I remember looking around and like this guy's got this bruised, this guy tore his his the knee of his uniform, this guy's got a bruised rib. And I remember thinking, is like, did we really win? Is that really winning?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, good for you.
SPEAKER_02And what I thought is in a fight, both people are gonna get hurt. We're we're gonna get hurt. So when you apply that to a relationship, why the hell do I want to willingly get into a fight with someone I love? I don't want to hurt them. I might not agree with them, right, but I don't want to hurt them. So how about we don't fight? How about we can have a discussion? Maybe it gets a little heated, maybe we get a little emotional, maybe we pause that thing.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You know, and that's a good, that's a good point. Yep, yep. Nathan, you those are really good beliefs. No, those are really good beliefs to have, but I think they're fairly atypical. I think whether it's male or female, we want to prove our points and prove who's right. Right? I think you are the way you are now because of the work you've done, honestly. I think you can it can be in a relationship the way you're describing because of the work you're done, we've done. And so many men, as we've talked about, haven't done the work. That's right. Haven't done the work because society has lied to them and told them they shouldn't have emotions, they shouldn't have tears, they shouldn't, all the things. And that's just a lie. That's a lie straight from the pit of hell because we're all created with emotions. God gave them to us. Yeah. And we have to figure out our way through them as you have done, right? As you have done. Um, let's see, where I wanted to go from there is that um you're gonna have to help me because I'm losing my transmission.
SPEAKER_02No, that's okay. We were talking about speaker listener, and I'm just brought up heart posture, and you want to make sure that your heart posture is set right at the outset. Yeah, and to me, when I think about that, look, as you mentioned, I have feelings. I I get irritated at stuff, but the irritation is usually like a higher level thing, like brain level. My heart is a little lower, so I need if I can set that posture correctly, I can kind of override what my brain wants to do.
SPEAKER_03That's really good.
SPEAKER_02And how my brain wants to respond.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's really good. I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah. Oh, I knew where I was going earlier. You said if it gets heated, we might need to take a break for a while.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think taking a break is good if it does get heated. I would say like a 30-minute, 45-minute, I wouldn't say taking it into the next day.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, well, it's because then you gotta sleep with yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And the and the Bible has a verse that says, Don't let the sun go down on your anger. And I think the Bible is just full of wisdom, right? And so I think it's important to not let the sun go down on your anger in a relationship because then you're not gonna sleep well, and then you're gonna wake up and maybe you're gonna be short with each other in the morning, you know? Yeah, and so it's just not good to let it to let that conflict go for too long.
SPEAKER_02So your choice is either chase the sun west or resolve it.
SPEAKER_03There you go, there you go. I'm thinking about this conflict that happened in my marriage. It was one of the bigger ones. I mean, we had plenty of 28 years of marriage, but it was one of the bigger ones. He was he was out to sea, he was in the Navy, and he was out to sea for, I think this was the six-month cruise, and I I don't remember exactly. And I'm gonna spare him and not give you all the details, but he sent me some pictures, and the pictures were very upsetting things for me. And um this was definitely it doesn't matter whether it was pre-cell phone days or not, but I'm pretty sure it was pre-cell phone days. And so I was home with two small children, and I get these pictures. He's in this beautiful location, you know, the Navy stopped at some beautiful country location, and he's like learning how to snorkel and scuba dive and stuff, and I get these pictures, and oh boy, oh boy, did I have a response to those pictures. And so when we talked, we had the biggest fight. There was no speaker-listener going on, there was a whole lot of let me tell you something going on. So we had this fight, and when he came home, when he came home, Nathan, we got into another fight. You do you know why?
SPEAKER_02Because the first one wasn't resolved.
SPEAKER_03Well, the first one wasn't resolved, but when he came home, we had a $600 phone bill. Oh my gosh. This one's back, you guys. This had to be back in back in the 90s. Can you imagine in the 90s? $600. Because we had a fight and he was overseas. And so we we got this $600 phone bill and then we got into another fight.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Oh, the things, oh the things, right? Um, but we definitely didn't know how to resolve conflict, and and he he was fairly naive about what would cause conflict. And so, um, yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, most dudes would know better than to do what you just did. But he just just out of naivety, wasn't out of it. No, wasn't intentional, all those things. Okay, we've already touched a little bit on spaghetti brain versus waffle brain. Women have that spaghetti brain where we've got everything on the brain all at once. You guys have waffle brains where you're in one little square at a time, and you have a nothing, you know, a nothing, a nothing square. And so that's important to keep in mind as you're engaging in conflict resolution and trying to resolve different things you know that you want to work through. It's really important to keep that in mind. And then lastly, I want to say, Nathan, I don't know if you have any more to say, but I want to say we all want to be seen, known, and heard.
SPEAKER_04Yes, right?
SPEAKER_03Yes, and when you talk about heart posture, when you go into these conversations, if you go in knowing that the person you're talking to, again, whether it's significant other spouse, colleague, you know, your your battle buddies at work, your friends at work, everybody, and men maybe not maybe men men and maybe most people don't have this at the forefront of their mind, but we all want to be seen, known, and heard.
SPEAKER_02And I would say pair, I would pair with that to assume positive intent. So oftentimes when someone does something that irritates us, we make the assumption that that was the deliberate objective. That's rarely the case. So assume positive intent. And if you are assuming positive intent, you approach the conversation differently than you know when you accuse someone of just, you know, right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. That's good. We want to have assumptions that are positive, right? I think I shared earlier in this podcast, maybe it was just with you. So if I'm repeating myself, bear with me. But someone I had an interaction with someone recently, and I totally made wrong assumptions.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Totally. And I was so embarrassed. And it was based on it was hold on, it was based on um my interactions with this person, and it was based on my my past history of trauma. And so I can see looking back why I did it, but man, just to slow down, slow down when the feelings and the emotions come up, the triggers come up, so that you're not reactive. Because I I was that was definitely an example of me being reactive versus responsive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and though I want to just make sure I'm painting or that we're painting the full picture there, you noticed that. I did, and then you acknowledged it to the person and you apologized.
SPEAKER_03I did.
SPEAKER_02So that's a huge deal.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. It that thank you, Nathan. That is true. It is important to acknowledge those moments for sure. Yeah, yeah. Did you have anything else you wanted to add?
SPEAKER_01No, I think this was really good. I think we covered the the main points. Does this feel like a good place to wrap up?
SPEAKER_03It does. Okay, he he has permission to say that on the podcast, but when that when that used to happen in sessions, I was like, oh my goodness. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's funny.
SPEAKER_03It is funny.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, let's close with some gratitude. You want to go first or you want me to go first?
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna let you go first.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Today I am just really grateful. There's a a friend recently sent me a job opportunity that I am very eager about. It looks like a great opportunity. I'm very grateful that that person sent that to me. And I applied to it the very same day.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I applied to it the very same day. So I'm just really grateful for that. It's nice to kind of recognize when we're ready to take the next step.
SPEAKER_03That's good.
SPEAKER_02And then to be able to do something that moves us in that direction. So I'm really grateful for that.
SPEAKER_03That's beautiful. And Nathan, we recently had September 11th this past week.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you shared with me earlier in the week that you wanted to make some comments on that. Do you still want to do that?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. You know, this year it's the 25th anniversary.
SPEAKER_03Incredible.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a quarter of a century.
SPEAKER_03Incredible.
SPEAKER_02And you know, I think everyone that was alive and you know, consciously aware at that point in time, you know where you were. You remember what you were doing. And absolutely. Many of us were able to watch when that second plane hit the second tower. And yeah, it's something that we'll never forget. What I want us to remember is not only the cowardly and dastardly act that was deliberately executed against a civilian target.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02I I do want us to remember that because that represents something that is very real and active in the world. And it's something that we need to guard against and be just be mindful of. I also want us to remember that on that day, there were hundreds literally of men and women that went toward that attack. They went toward a situation that they didn't know what was going on, they didn't know the end of the story, they didn't know all the information, but whether it was duty or something else that motivated them, they went toward the danger. And many of them lost their lives that day. Right. Many of them lost their lives in the years after because of complications from the stuff that they breathed in down there. I want us to remember that as well because while something horrible was done to us as a nation, something that was unprovoked, something that against a civilian, a defenseless target, while those things are true and accurate, it's also not the whole story. There was a lot of heroism that day.
SPEAKER_04For sure.
SPEAKER_02There were a lot of people who risked and in fact lost their lives to try to save others. I want us to remember that too. I want us to remember that there are individuals today that are still doing that. And they're doing that sometimes, it's in a capacity serving with the military, and sometimes it's in a law enforcement uniform or a firefighters uniform or an EMT or a paramedics uniform. They're still doing that today, and I think it's really important that we acknowledge those individuals who are willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice so that we can have the life that we the that we do today. I've had over the years, I've had the opportunity to speak with a couple of people who were actually working on September 11th in Manhattan on that day.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_02Yep, one of them is a uh FDNY guy, fire department in New York, and the other one is an NYPD, New York Police Department guy. And it is hearing their stories is just it is it is heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_03Um I can imagine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I also want us to remember, as we're thinking about that, I just want to just ask a question to pause for a second. The people that are listening, do you remember September 12th? And the 13th and the 14th. Do you remember what the nation felt like then? In my lifetime, I have never experienced a nation that felt so unified. And it wasn't that we didn't disagree with each other, because we did. It wasn't that there weren't two opposing political parties.
SPEAKER_03So good, Nathan.
SPEAKER_02There still were.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02But we were all American.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02I remember people going out of their way for their fellow Americans. I remember people holding doors for people they wouldn't normally, offering to carry groceries. I remember people yielding at an intersection where they had the right away so that other people could go. And I want us to remember that feeling too. Not only that feeling of having been attacked, of not knowing who did this, of what was next.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_02Not not only those silent skies with no aircraft. I also want us to remember how we felt on September 12th because we can do that again today.
SPEAKER_03So good, Nathan. So good. Yes, we can do that today.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And Nathan, not only did people become really nice to each other and comforting to each other, but churches were packed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Churches were packed because people got a wake-up call about their humanity. About, you know. Um, and so yeah, God does, man, God does want us to have that unity and loving one another and caring for one another and being kind and compassionate to one another. And and we have lost that, in large part we've lost that as a nation. Um yeah, I could preach about that, um, but I won't. Um, but it is just important to have love for the people that you see, the compassion and the love, because we are we're all dealing with something. We're all dealing with something. And I do believe the enemy has a spirit, there's a spirit of division on the earth. But as believers, we can overcome that spirit of division, and we do that with love. We do that with love, just loving one another, regardless of the color of our skin or the brand of our faith or all the things, just loving one another, right? Yeah, and so I think that piece is super important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's viewing people, recognizing that people are gonna have different viewpoints than than your own, and that's okay. That's right, but having a different viewpoint that does not render them an enemy.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02They're just a little bit of a different human being, but they're still a human being.
SPEAKER_03That's right. That's right. We do get to have different opinions for sure.
SPEAKER_01What are you grateful for?
SPEAKER_03Well, Nathan, I'm grateful that you and I we we started this podcast and we're so passionate about helping other people. And I think I think you're similar to me in that I want to reach more than one person at a time. I've longed for that for many years. I love the one-on-one counseling and the one-on-one that my walk with my spiritual children or my um biological children. I love that, but I long for people to know all the things. And I've just longed to impact more than one person at a time. Not to be on a stage. That's the it's never been about that. It it has been about, you know, when I think about who teaches us communication skills, who teaches us about emotions, who teaches us these things? Um, there are speakers and and stuff that do that, but I've just longed to do that myself. And you and I are gonna have that opportunity next Saturday.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_03Um, with Regina, a woman that you met at your work that saw she saw things when she met you. She was like, Who is this young man? Yeah, and she gave you a prophetic word, probably not your first prophetic word, but your first prophetic word over someone that didn't know you.
SPEAKER_01Didn't know me at all. I'd never met her before.
SPEAKER_03Yep, yep, and she, yep, she spoke a word over you that you're gonna be speaking to the nations. And I think that is so cool. So, anyway, she invited us to come speak. So I'm grateful for that opportunity that um it's our first live speaking engagement together. And we practiced the other day, and it was so much fun just to because we talk like the podcast is us talking to each other. We talk to each other, we could talk to each other, and we do talk to each other sometimes for wild amounts of time. Yeah, um, because uh yeah, I I I tell Nathan I could talk to a tree for an hour. Oh my goodness. But I'm grateful for that opportunity. We're gonna be talking, and this is something I'm really passionate about. Um, it's hopefully it's clear how passionate I am about my faith. But we're gonna be talking about faith and mental health and and the importance of marrying those two together because there's a part of us that we're in we're connected in spirit with the Lord, and we have a soul, and our soul is our mind, will, and emotions from my perspective. Some people see that differently, but from my perspective, it's uh mind, will, and emotions, and we got to figure out how to let the spirit lead, yes, for sure, but we also have to pay attention to the mind, will, and emotions, right? Which is what we talk about all the time on the podcast, right? Yeah, so I'm grateful for that opportunity, and it's just been fun to prepare for it. It's been fun to think about okay, how do we talk to other people instead of just talking to each other? Yeah. So we were on the phone practicing, and I thought it went, I thought it went really well. So that I'm grateful for that opportunity.
SPEAKER_04Awesome.
SPEAKER_03And I'm grateful for what God has done in this crazy we talk about that all the time too. Like Sherry, if it had not have been for the hand of God, this this relationship would not be. And it truly is like the name of our podcast, Divine and Most Unlikely. This relationship is totally divine, totally unlikely. And and God, God is doing just crazy wild things through it. And I think I've told you before, Nathan, and I think I've I've said this on the podcast, but God gave me a prophetic word twice, same prophetic word twice through two different people. Um, I think neither of them knew me. And in that prophetic word, he did say I was gonna speak and teach and preach and write a book. And I was like, yeah, whatever. And all that is kind of like some 18-19 years later's come 18 to 19 years later coming to fruition. And I've told Nathan, he did not tell me there was a Nathan involved.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, kept that one a surprise, huh?
SPEAKER_03Kept a little surprise, yeah. But I'm grateful that there's a Nathan involved because man, do we have fun?
SPEAKER_02Well, the Nathan's grateful to be involved.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, awesome.
SPEAKER_02And we're grateful that you've chosen to spend some of your limited time with us. We really hope that you took something useful away from this. And we hope you'll come join us again here on Divine and Most Unlikely.