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The Embodied Way Podcast
#110: The Grief Nobody Talks About: Finding Your Way Through with Stephanie and Michelle Bossy
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Grief doesn't always look like loss. Sometimes it looks like a marriage ending, a dream that didn't pan out, or simply a life that went a different direction than you hoped. In this episode, I sit down with sisters Stephanie and Michelle Bossy — two members of the family behind Asher's Angel Foundation, a family-founded nonprofit devoted to holistic grief support for individuals and communities — for the most heartfelt and practical conversation I've had on this podcast so far.
We discuss grief from both a personal and professional perspective, bolstered by Stephanie’s background as a licensed marriage and family therapist. Stephanie, Michelle, and I each share our own experiences with grief — from the loss of loved ones to divorce and the quieter losses that don't always get named. And we talk about what it actually looks like to move through grief, rather than around it.
In this episode, we cover:
- How the somatic approach used at Asher's Angel Foundation differs from traditional grief groups, and why experiencing grief in your body changes everything
- Why community and service are so central to the healing process
- The themes that arise during grief (yes, the 5 stages exist, but are far from linear)
- How to navigate triggering times like holidays and anniversaries through ritual
- The importance of allowing your emotions fully, and finding people who can hold space for you
- Practical advice for moving through your own grief
- How you can provide meaningful support when someone you love is grieving
- Whether you're in the thick of grief right now, still carrying something old, or trying to show up for someone who is hurting — this episode is for you.
About Asher's Angel Foundation
Asher's Angel Foundation is a family-led nonprofit devoted to supporting community members through the grief process. Through programs, events, and shared stories, they provide support, education, and meaningful experiences for anyone navigating grief — approaching healing from a holistic lens that honors the mind, body, and spirit.
Web: https://www.ashersangelfoundation.org/
Instagram: @ashersangelfoundation
Substack: @ashersangelfoundation
About Stephanie Bossy
Stephanie is a licensed marriage and family therapist, mindful grief facilitator, and yoga instructor. She brings together mindfulness and somatic techniques in her therapeutic work — making her a natural fit for the deeply body-based approach at the heart of Asher's Angel Foundation's grief support.
Web: https://www.stephaniebossy.com/
About Michelle Bossy
Michelle is a Mexican-American theater, television, and film director and educator, living between New York and Los Angeles. Her work centers original, female, and BIPOC-led storytelling — and she brings that same commitment to voice and community into her grief support work with the foundation.
Web: https://www.michellebossy.com/
Instagram: @michellebossydirects
Resources we discussed on this episode
Wendy Black-Stern, Center for Somatic Grieving
The Body Remembers by Babette Rothschild
Trauma and the Body by Clare Pain, Kekuni Minton, and Pat Ogden
The Post Traumatic Growth Guidebook by Arielle Schwartz
Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach
Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine
The Wild Edge of Sorrow by Francis Weller
The Children's Memorial Grove at Spring Lake in Santa Rosa
Resources from The Embodied Way
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On Substack: https://theembodiedway.substack.com
On the Podcast Blog: https://theembodiedwaycoach.com/2026/06/26/the-grief-nobody-talks-about-finding-your-way-through/
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We've been talking a lot about these big, profound, life-changing, you know, before divorce, after divorce, before death, after death, which I do think like Michelle's language around that, that it really is like a point in time. It just everything gets divided that way, I believe, like when a profound grief like that happens. And, you know, there's so many griefs, grievances, experiences that people go through where I believe that grief is when I wanted one thing to happen, something else happened instead. So, you know, grieving identity, grieving, you know, the loss of a job, grieving the loss of a friendship. I think a lot of times we don't, I'll say it this way. I know there have been times in my life where I'm like, I'm not entitled to grieve this thing because it's not an okay thing to grieve.
SPEAKER_01This is the Embodied Way Podcast, where creative people come to reconnect with their sole purpose, identify and release their blocks, heal old wounds, and manifest the life they've always dreamed of. Hi, I'm Natalie Neki Farrow, and I am an actress, writer, and embodiment coach, and the host of the Embodied Way podcast. Today's guests are Stephanie and Michelle Bossi, sisters who helped start the family-led nonprofit organization Asher's Angel Foundation, devoted to supporting community members as they manage the grief process. They provide support, education, and meaningful experiences for anyone navigating grief through programs, events, and shared stories that foster connection and healing. Their mission is to approach grief from a holistic lens in order to heal the mind, body, and spirit. If you're experiencing grief or you know someone going through the grief process, this episode is for you. Hi, Stephanie. Hi, Michelle. Thank you so much for coming on the Embodied Way podcast. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00We're excited to be here.
SPEAKER_01So I first discovered Asher's Angel Foundation a few months ago when Michelle shared an Instagram post about your work. And for our listeners, Michelle and I knew each other for some acting classes I took with her almost a decade ago at primary stages, but we hadn't connected in a really long time. But I just really, really resonated with what you're doing because I have my own grief journey. I was uh going through a divorce and then my mom passed away at the end of 2024. And during that process, I remember looking for grief groups and just finding that I had a really hard time finding anything, uh, let alone what I wanted. And I thought immediately was, wow, I really wish that you had been around when I was going through that process. And so I just knew at that moment that I wanted to have you on the podcast.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate that, Natalie. I too had an experience with grief and was sort of looking around when I went through my divorce, they're sort of thematically similar. And then I couldn't find a group of you know people who had gone through what I'd gone through. And so it felt it's it can be a very isolating thing, grief. And that's really at the heart of what we started doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So why don't you tell me a little bit more about your inspiration for starting the foundation and your mission?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So the origin of the foundation starts with the passing of my nephew. My nephew, Asher, Ossie Ricketts, was born prematurely, and he lived for several months in the NICU at UCSF hospital in San Francisco. And once we knew that he wasn't going to make it, it had a profound impact on me and the rest of my family. And what happened was as the way community is, I'm a member of a theater company in LA called IAMA. And word got around it, my family was going through this, and I am artistic director, Steph Black, suggested that we get in touch with her sister, Wendy Black. And that kind of opened up quite a bit for us because we suddenly had a source we could go to. Wendy offered grief groups and grief retreat, and it became such a mooring experience for us as a family, and particularly for my sister Elizabeth. And I think that when something terrible happens collectively or personally, we're trying to make sense of that experience. And one of the things that has been really profound for us is finding our community and creating community. So that was sort of the impulse for what Asher's Eagle Foundation could do is reach out, reach across, and also honor my nephew who, you know, had a very short but for us incredibly impactful life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's a really powerful way that you took what you were going through and brought it into action. Stephanie, I know that you are a therapist and you're one of the practitioners for the foundation. What was the piece that you initially thought about as you were creating the foundation that you, you know, maybe realized or recognized that you could bring to the process? And what has that journey been like for you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, you know, being a marriage and family counselor has been so life-changing for me and how I relate to my own and other people's experiences. Like most importantly, I think from day one, just realizing that emotion is welcome. And that wasn't something that I grew up believing or understanding. But because of this connection that Michelle was referring to between Steph and Wendy, these friends that we met through her business, Wendy Blackstern has a center for somatic grieving that Elizabeth was attending retreats. And so we thought, you know, with my background and my interest in this topic, why not get trained up in her modalities? Yeah, I studied under Wendy, and she has this amazing program that she offers. And it's like a way to have these two-hour or one and a half hour grief groups that allow people the opportunity to, you know, really experience their grief, but also experience it in community. So we started offering these grief groups. We wanted, we knew we wanted them to be accessible. And so yeah, it just felt like a natural way to weave me in. You know, it's a very much a family-run organization. And Michelle has her particular like niche skills and talents, and Elizabeth has hers, and I have mine. And mine just happened to be like the psychotherapy. And I also have a background in yoga. I'm a yoga teacher as well. So it just felt like the perfect way for me to blend in with the rest of the family.
SPEAKER_01Great. I want to ask you a little follow-up question about that. So, what are your the grief groups like that you're leading right now? And how might they be different from others that people might find or doing one-on-one therapy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. So we really utilize the mindfulness component that's sort of at the heart of every group that we're gonna offer. And the idea is that, you know, great it's it's one thing to have talk therapy, which is so important. Obviously, like I really advocate for talk therapy, but this is a way to also have an experience of grief in the body. And so there's a way that it both shifts from the personal where you have a meditation component, a journaling component, and moves into the collective where there's a group sharing component. And then it closes with an integration. And that's our community grief groups. If you sign up for a longer, more contained group of like a six-week or six-month program, then you'll be also be offering a yoga component that follows like particular themes. Where again, following Wendy Stern's work, it's like the movement of grief can follow like a particular, like different themes can come up while you're moving through grief. And so that's more of like a contained class. But the community grief groups, they're you can do a one-off or you can come every time. And they really have this like mindfulness aspect. That's like, I think, the key component. I think when you look at other styles of groups, you might have something that's more of a like sharing that also has what we call, you know, crosstalk. That's not something that we really want to advocate for in our groups, just because we really want to be focused on how, you know, personal the grieving process is. So really, you're only being reflected by a facilitator, um, somebody who's trained, somebody who has a background. And while I don't in any way want to say that it's not okay to, you know, respond to somebody who's in a grief process, in some of the more acute experiences of grief, it can be a lot to hear a lot of feedback, a lot of noise from other people. And it's really we're really trying to keep it so that, you know, the person reflecting you is somebody who has experience, background, and training and like knows how to hold somebody in their grief. Yeah. So I think that might be one of the major differences besides the mindfulness and movement aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01That's really cool. And I'm curious about this path that I I don't remember the exact word that you used, but the different sort of phases or types of things that people experience while going through a grief process. Can you share a little bit more about that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you know, obviously, people know about the stages of grief. It's a pretty common, well-known idea that there are five stages of grief. And for one, these stages tend to not be linear. That would be my like caveat for people to know because they think that once they move through this part of it, they're gonna be, and it's not a, it's not like you're gonna graduate from grief someday. It's not like someday you're gonna be like, oh great, I have my, you know, degree in grief. It's more like a, you know, things can be happening simultaneously or they can cut each other off, or it can, it's just a nonlinear experience. And so basically, again, based off of Wendy's work, what she's organized is that there are different themes that might come up as you are navigating the grief process. And you might not be right on time with like my weekly teachings per se, but at some point you might have an experience of managing your own denial. You might have an experience of managing, you know, levels of acceptance or stress around acceptance, or Wendy has a phrase that she uses, like the tunnel of terror, which is basically you're so in the dark, you have no idea what way is up. And all of those are welcome, all of those are acceptable parts of the grieving process. Because I think so often with our emotional experience, at least in my experience, I want to say, like, okay, good, cool, cross that one off. I did the anger thing, and now I'm ready for whatever's coming next. And it's like, oh, honey, if only it were so. But that's just not really the way that grief moves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Grief is so complicated and different. And, you know, I know that my grief from my divorce was incredibly different than my grieving for my mom. And, you know, at times I feel, oh, I'm very complete with those things. But I just saw that you posted on the Substack for Asher's Angel Foundation that uh a post about moving through Father's Day. And I know there's certain times of the year when that are more triggering to people. And so even if you've lost somebody, you know, years ago, it it still can be very triggering. And so can do you want to speak a little bit more to that?
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah, I could talk about it all day. And maybe Michelle also wants to chime in. But I do think that when we hold ourselves to a timeline, it really interferes with just like the natural movement of the body and the mind. And when we allow ourselves the space and the recognition, acknowledgement of like, okay, it's okay that I'm having feelings on an anniversary. It's okay that I'm having feelings on a meaningful day. It's just so taboo in our society to allow ourselves to grieve, especially in public. But the reality is that everybody is experiencing a grief at some point in time. It's not all the time. So yeah, I think just reminding yourself that there is that it's allowed. There's space, you can feel what you need to feel on these days. And one of the things that I think our family has done really magically is that we've set up like opportunities to honor Asher or other people in our lives for on those particular days. I think Chris, uh, our sister's husband, Chris Ricketts, might have written that post about Father's Day today. So Asher's father. And yeah, it's really, it's really powerful that I think he mentions in there that we do these things. Like we'll have a picnic that's like, and it doesn't have to be a big deal, can just be we're eating sandwiches and sitting on the grass in the backyard or sitting on the floor of our sister's house, and that's our picnic to say, like, hey, this is a time that we can sit around and and just remember that we're all here together honoring, you know, our nephew, our son, our cousin.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that that was so well said, Steph. And I really appreciate ritual as a way of dealing with loss. You know, for me, sometimes it feels so private to have gone through a loss. The loss of our nephew is shared, a shared loss. Um, there is also collective grieving going on for things that are happening in our country right now, things that are happening in our world. So, you know, I think for me ultimately to acknowledge those days and also to be in community in some way feels like a way of dealing with things that come up. And I also am reminded of that incredible book, The Body Keeps the Court, which is some days I will I will say, I'm having a really tough day, and then I'll it will be the anniversary of something profound that shifted in my life, and it's incredible to me that I might not even consciously be aware of what is happening, but physically, mentally, emotionally, things are happening in my body saying, Hey, you need to acknowledge that something is happening, you need to reach out, you know, you need to check in with your people and say, Hey, I might need to go on a walk right now. I might need to, you know, be in in nature in some way, something like that. That just like kind of takes you out of that cycle of just sort of looping and feeling kind of powerless alone. Yeah, that's so well said.
SPEAKER_01And I think it's really interesting how really our body does all the score, right? And that's I guess speaks to the fact that you know, healing isn't something we just do with the mind and and why doing talk therapy alone might not be enough. Do you want to talk a little bit more about somatic experiencing? I know a lot about it because it's influences the work that I do, but I think a lot of our listeners might still not know what that is or understand what that is, and it would be helpful for them to get a sense of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So if we're gonna highlight books, I would love to highlight Babette Rothschild's The Body Remembers, Pat Ogden, Ariel Schwartz, like really, really incredible somatic psychotherapists who really like went into deep research and deep study about like what is it that's happening in the body? But I love what Michelle said, where like sometimes our body will feel something or remember to use Rothschild's word, sometimes our body will remember something that our mind hasn't thought of yet. So we might wake up on the day of an anniversary or a momentous occasion and be like, why do I feel weird or something's off or sick to my stomach or incredibly happy? I don't know. It doesn't really matter because again, the way that grief expresses is across the board. And then it's like with that, the mind comes back online, maybe and says, Oh yeah, it's you know, June 19th. That is a really meaningful day, something like that. So the idea, just like a general idea about some like the somatic experiencing, is that it's not just events are happening to our mind, they're happening to our bodies too. And our body stores memories in different places of like experiences that happen to us. So, again, back to this idea that like talk therapy is a wonderful way to process through our feelings, but adding a somatic component brings the body along with the mind. And so sometimes, you know, we might not be able to really get into some of the felt sense of what's going on unless we activate some somatic experience. So Peter Levine talks about this in a pretty simple way that I really like, where he says, you know, in the wild, when animal, and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna quote him exactly, so he'll be doing a lot of paraphrasing here, but in the wild, when an animal experiences a trauma, they shake it off afterwards. So let's say you're a prey and a predator is coming for you, coming for you. And let's say you move into what we would call like a freeze response. You have a trauma response, a freeze response in your body. So you play dead, and then the predator leaves you alone, keeps on going, or you flee the scene, or you fight, whatever you do, but the predator doesn't end up, you know, attacking you. And so the prey is left. And then the prey does a thing where they shake it off. So you can visibly picture this in your head, right? You've seen your dog shake off water or something like that. So, in the idea, is that that's a way to move that trauma out of your body. And humans don't really do something like this, right? They don't like shake off their experience or they don't really get that opportunity to like release the all of the tension that has built up and mounted after an experience like this has happened. So this is a way to go back into some of those experiences and really feel it and move it through the body. So that's part of why we have the yoga component in the longer groups, in the more contained settings, is that you we talk through an experience and then in the yoga practice, we move it out of our bodies before the integration that comes next. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I just wanted to say something that really, really helped me because of my brilliant sister Stephanie. You know, I was struggling after one of the traumas I went through. I was having nightmares, and so I processed it all in talk therapy. Intellectually, I processed it. I understood it, I felt like I reckoned with it, but I was still having this sort of recurring, terrible, you know, dream that was keeping me up. And Stephanie suggested that I try EMDR, and a lot of people I say EMDR. It's EMDR stands for eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. So it's a physical and talking therapy that helps you integrate change into your body. You're actually changing the way you think about it physically and emotionally and mentally. So I was totally unfamiliar with this, but I did a year of EMDR and it just changed everything for me. And I think that one thing that I was really afraid of is I was comfortable with the way health therapy works. You know, I'd done it for years and years, but that really was a game changer. So I think for people who are looking for things that might go deeper, and this is not something that we as the foundation offer, it's just another way of looking at how you move grief and trauma through your body. It really changed my life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, I had a a little bit of a similar experience when I was processing my divorce, and I at the time was doing the class. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but it's a it's Basically, just a workout that involves your mind with your body. And whenever I did that, I felt like I could like really connect with my emotions. And so I would do that and it would help me bring the emotion to the surface and let it move. Because one of the things that happens with emotion is a lot of times we hold it because we don't feel comfortable experiencing it. When we hold it, it gets stuck, right? And so that was something that I did that I found incredibly helpful at the time. And it was literally like just doing something every day that helped me connect with my emotions. Because for me, my instinct was to turn the emotions off. But you'd still feel that like that underlying lethargy that happens because you're dealing with something heavy. And so there was something really powerful about doing a physical practice that activated my emotional life. And then I always felt better afterwards. It didn't move everything completely. It didn't solve everything, but it but it kept me moving forward rather than feeling completely stuck.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I really appreciate Natalie that you're mentioning that there are underlying effects of holding on to our emotions because I do think a lot of us get used to the status quo of like, well, it's I'm okay or it's okay or I can manage. And I totally, absolutely like people do what they need to do and they they show up when they're ready to show up for themselves. I really want to strongly advocate that I don't think people should be forcing themselves into something they're not ready for. And like the difference between surviving an experience and then thriving is tremendous, you know, and I believe that people are, they have the right to live like a full and joyful life. And sometimes when we don't allow ourselves to feel the deep, deep sad, we don't get to experience the big, big happy. And so to me, it's really such an important thing to be able to like allow yourself the breadth of emotion. So yeah, anyway, I mean, we've this, I also want to just name that while the groups are an important aspect of Astros Angel Foundation, they're not the only thing that we're all about. It is an opportunity for people to experience like the community of group, but we're hopeful that the idea is that this is not the only way to heal. That's in fact what we're really wanting to let people know that we're we want to help you rethink your healing journey and not tell you how to heal. Because I do believe in the body's also like natural ability to let us know what we need. It's just about learning how to tune in and listen. So eventually, you know, we're hopeful to offer other, and Michelle can speak more to this than I can, other things besides just this one way. Because the reality is, like, again, while I'm a super component for talk therapy, obviously it's my work and I am obsessed with it. Michelle loves EMDR, right? I'm a yoga practitioner. I've been practicing yoga for 20 years. And, you know, there's just a way in which, like, this works for us, but we don't always know what works for you. And so we want to invite you into your own self-study in whatever way that shows up for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's great. Michelle, did you want to go ahead and talk about some of the other ways that the foundation is supporting people with processing their grief?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So we do have community grief circles coming up on July 3rd and July 17th from 11 to 12:15 Pacific. And we also have a six-week mindful grieving journey beginning on September 11th from 12 to 2 p.m. Pacific time. We're also going to be offering an herbal grief workshop, which was inspired by someone Stephanie has known, and that will be on July 25th. We're really excited about that. We haven't set a time yet, but you can follow us on Instagram and we'll be announcing that. And then something that we have wanted to do for a long time is offer some kind of outreach at UCFF hospital. So we're going to be going into the NICU and we're going to be offering dinners to the families that are there. And the consistency that we're going to do that in is still being developed right now, but I think we're going to do it quarterly to start. We've also brought out gift bags to families who are waiting in the NICU at UCSA. And a lot of experiences we've had growing up. Our mother was very interested in service and giving back to communities. And I think that can be a really profound way of taking you out of your grief and letting you connect with other people as well. And so, you know, that part of outreach is an ongoing process that we're developing. But, you know, we're really excited if there are people who find this interesting and are in the Bay Area and want to collaborate with us, we you know, we'd love to hear from you. The herbal grief workshop will be online, and so that should be without barrier and allow people to join virtually.
SPEAKER_01So tell me a little bit more about what an herbal grief workshop is. What are the components that are going to come into that? I'll let Stephanie take that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so my friend Julia Braun is who we're inviting in to offer this workshop, which we're really excited about. And she has a background in herbalism and a degree in counseling psychology. So Julia wants to take us through like maybe some components of like what it's like to create your own tinctures or teas at home. So that will be the first part of it. The second part will be that she'll actually walk us through the process of making some kind of herbal remedy for your grief process. So herbs that support, you know, whether it's like heart support or lung support. I think our lungs are typically support associated with grief in Chinese medicine. And just like different ways to take these herbs and use them to support you through your grief process. So she'll help us create a tincture. And then at the end, she'll offer like a QA. So it'll be a donation-based class. It'll be, I think, about two hours long. And yeah, the hope is that we can just sort of think again about different ways that people can access grief support. And this is another way, you know. And then maybe somebody might be like, oh, um, I maybe I want to meet, have more one-on-one time with an herbalist, or maybe I want to become an herbalist, or maybe I want to go collect some herbs out of my garden and try out different things with them. So she'll just kind of walk us through like, what does it mean? Kind of figure out what your question is. Like, what does it mean to use herbs to support grief?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's really cool. I was actually going to an acupuncturist every week during my own grief process, partly because I have an autoimmune disorder. And so I was using doing it to support that. But at the time, every time I went, she's like, your water channel, your water channel, your water channel. Which, if you don't know what that it means, water channel is directly related to grief and emotional processing. So it was kind of interesting because it literally would go once a week and she would, you know, reopen the water channel so that I could experience my emotions. And that was a huge part of my healing process during those key moments in my life when I was processing a lot of grief, maintaining my health as someone with an autoimmune disorder. But if you even if you don't have an autoimmune disorder, it is going to affect that for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's one way that sometimes I'm trying to maybe convince that's maybe not the best word, but my clients that, you know, it does live in your body is I'll remind people like, you know, when you're nervous and your palms start sweating or sorry, I just about started quoting an MM song in my head, knees leak, you know, just like, yeah, the somatic experiencing of stress, right? It lives in our body. And sometimes people, I think, especially in the Western world, aren't as connected to the way that like our body is associated with our emotional experiencing. So just kind of reminding you, like, okay, just when you feel that, when you feel this feeling or you have this thought of like, I'm sad, where does that show up for you? Is it here in your heart? Is it here in your jaw? Is it here in your belly? And once you start to tune in, you're like, oh yeah, it is right there. So I do think, you know, any support people can get acupuncture. I go to acupuncture every other week, and I have been probably for like 10 years going to acupuncture every other week. I can't speak to it from like a professional standpoint, but I will say that it is. And I go sometimes for physical ailments, but usually it's for emotional processing and stress.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's so many different ways in, which is really beautiful. All right. So I would love if you're open to it for us to talk a little bit about your personal experience with grief. I know that Michelle, you've already shared a little bit, but you know, can you talk a little bit about, you know, what your experience with grief has been like and what were the specific things that worked for you in terms of managing it?
SPEAKER_02I can go first, or I can, if Stephanie doesn't want to answer, I can just go for it. So I my marriage ended really abruptly and shockingly. And when that happened, I just felt super alone. I was I felt like I was moored on an island. I felt the upheaval of every part of my life and my identity. And I felt also like because the particulars of the way things ended, I felt like it was hard to talk about it and be understood. I am very lucky in that I already have an incredible support system, I have a beautiful family, I have incredible friends, chosen family, and you know, I had a really, a really dynamite therapist who was trying to help me through other things when this came up. But I ended up moving across the country and I ended up, you know, really changing my relationship to a lot of things that I had felt were firm and were firm for the rest of my life. So it was it was really tricky. I just thought that for so long I wanted the thing that I had lost back as opposed to what was going to open up for me in this new part of my life. And so there was a sort of before this event happened and then an after. And I felt really bifurcated from that person that I had been. You know, I was I was living full-time in New York, I was my day-to-day look like this. I did this in my free time, and all of those things started to change. And so I was I was hungering, I was trying to grasp on to what that old life had been. And then there comes this relief where you know that life is not coming back anymore, and so you start to in that craving process, right, in those ages, I started to accept it. And the accepting eventually led me to mourning that old life and then looking for reinvention possibility. And the reinvention for me has been pretty profound because I didn't know that there was life that was even better than the life I had. I felt like I had which is a crazy thing to say, to be in your late 30s and feel like life cannot get any better than this thing. And now what's so incredible is I feel like I have a life I had dreamt about, but even from the youngest age, you know, being an artist, getting to travel with my work, being close to my family in proximity, close to them in a way that I wasn't before all of the fallout happened in my life. And it's even more special because it's all mine and before I was sharing it with somebody else. So I still mourn it. I still miss that I was, you know, I I I came across a picture of myself recently, I was showing it, and I was like, wow, that girl, you know, that young person who had like all of her life ahead of her, who had everything sort of as she thought, figured out, right? Which is never the truth. That's a that's a universe playing a trick on you when you think you have it all figured out. But I just think that gratitude, and I wouldn't choose it, you know, I wouldn't choose the thing that happened to me. But what it did allow me to do is when my sister Elizabeth and her husband Chris lost Asher, you know, when things happen to other people, I think, oh, I can help them through this particular part in their life in a way. I mean, not in a not necessarily in a formal way, maybe in an informal way, or maybe in a formal way through the foundation, but those people don't have to feel alone in the way that I felt alone. I felt like I was the first person who ever had a major loss when I was going through that loss. And I know that that tragedy strikes. I think that's what you take on, you know. So I think does that answer your question, Natalie?
SPEAKER_01It really does. Thank you for sharing that. And I think it really speaks to, I'm gonna share my experience a little bit because I think when you hear my experience with my divorce compared to Michelle, it will really help highlight how unique each person's experience is. So my divorce, on the other hand, was something I think I went through a large portion of the grief before I made the decision that I wanted a divorce, which is a very different way to go through a grief process. And I think in some ways, similar to knowing that you have a family member who has a debilitating disease, because you're already sort of experiencing some of those early stages of grief at the beginning. There's like, is this really happening? That that piece of like denial and wanting things to be the way that they were and wanting to be able to, you know, solve everything. But when I went through it, by the time I asked for the divorce, I think I had hit that acceptance mode because I realized it wasn't going to be able to be fixed. And so you could say it was downhill, but it was very emotional for me. Like it was a, it was a good, like, I think a good 15 months of my life that I was actively grieving after making that decision. And and similar to Michelle, it was there was definitely a before and after. I'd done a lot of healing work on myself before that, which was part of what led me to ask for it because the person I was becoming was no longer in alignment with the relationship that I was in. And you get to a point where you recognize maybe this isn't going to change from the part of the other person anymore. And you have to choose yourself. And so a lot of that building of that new identity was already happening before I went through the divorce. And then it was, then it was claiming it, right? And so there's just a slightly different timeline, slightly different scenario. I weirdly had a friend who had her sister pass away very early into my divorce journey. And so it was strange because we were obviously going through very different kinds of grief, but we had each other to lean on because we both needed to express grief. And so being in each other's presence was very helpful in that it was a very easy, open space to just be authentically ourselves. And so if you don't have that built in your life, and I hope you don't, because I don't want you to have someone else going through really profound deep grief at the same time that you are. But this is why we want to be in community and find a community that you can process your grief with.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I really appreciate that. It's like, you know, that that old saying, which I don't think is a great saying, but it's like misery loves company. But I would say like grief loves company. You know, like I think not feeling that loneliness allows you to feel in different ways. And I'm just so grateful for you know the people who propped me up during that time. You know, and I hope that one day, if they ever need that from me, that I can be that person for them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's great. Stephanie, did you want to share anything? You you don't have to, but you're welcome to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I want to share, you know, I maybe not a specific instance, although I would like to talk a little bit about losing Asher. But before I do, I want to talk about like what we've been talking a lot about these big, profound, life-changing, you know, before divorce, after divorce, before death, after death, which I do think like Michelle's language around that, that it really is like a point in time. It just everything gets divided that way, I believe, like when a profound grief like that happens. And, you know, there's so many griefs, grievances, experiences that people go through where I believe that grief is when I wanted one thing to happen, something else happened instead. So, you know, grieving identity, grieving, you know, the loss of a job, grieving the loss of a friendship, I think a lot of times we don't really consider that like we have the, I'll say it this way. I know there have been times in my life where I'm like, I'm not entitled to grieve this thing because it's not an okay thing to grieve. It's not grief-worthy. And so instead of like allowing myself the space to really feel that there is grief here, you know, it there's so much, for example, with friendship, there's so much privileging of romantic love in our culture that sometimes we forget that, you know, our friendships are just as important or just as meaningful. Family members, grieving, you know, going no contact with a family member, grieving coming out and not being received, grieving realizing that you are about to enter a coming out process. And again, all of these things are more, they're like quieter, they're smaller moments, maybe comparatively. Not that I want to make a hierarchy of it, but they're, let's say they're they're less maybe overt and well known by everybody around us. And yeah, like, so I would say that while for me, you know, there have been there, we have had losses in our family, and there have been moments of like really profound grief for me as well. I think I almost, you know, have more I mean, I certainly have more experience, but I almost have more as we're talking about the grief process, like times of my life where it was like, I wished that this had happened, but this happened instead, whether like a trauma happened to me, or you know, I lost my agency for one reason or another, or I, you know, my coming out process was what it was. And it wasn't, you know, my family was super, super supportive. I want to be like really clear about that. And yet there was still a lot of grief in the coming out process. So that there are things that, again, might not be like widely understood as like death, divorce, whatever, but they're still meaningful griefs. And those are the ones that have been probably the most life-changing for me. Allowing myself, as you both are saying, like the space to really, I would say, and this is what I talk to my clients about like it's an underworld journey. It's like going deep, deep down into the darkest depths and then re-emerging a new person, truly a new person. If you like allow yourself the opportunity to go down and sort of like a Greek goddess, retrieve what needs to be retrieved and then bring it back up with you into the rest of the world.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really beautiful analogy. And it definitely tracks with my own experience. And, you know, it can be a little daunting to think that that's what you have to go through, but also sometimes it helps to know that that's what's on the table. So thank you for sharing that.
SPEAKER_00Is Natalie, is it okay if I briefly mention my experience with so I want to say, you know, as as even though the death of Asher happened to all of us, like I think I don't want to speak for others, but at least for me, you know, Elizabeth and Chris were really the people who were going through it, I would say they were at the center of harm or center of the circle of trauma in this experience. And so for a while, while I was having my own. Own experience of loss, like losing my nephew. You know, I don't know how personal I'm gonna get, but like the moment that I got a phone call in the middle of the night that Elizabeth had gone into the hospital in the first place. This was before we had lost him. I was like sound asleep. And I guess they called my roommate because I was out. It was three o'clock in the morning. And she came in and shook my shoulder like really gently and was like, hey, Steph, your sister went into labor. And my first response was like, Oh my God, we're having a baby. And then my second response was like, oh no, it's way too early. It's way too early. And so it was that moment of like, oh, and then like crushing down like pretty fast. And at that point, like I said, we didn't know what was going to happen. We still had like a few months of this process before actually truly losing Asher. But there are glimmers like that that I remember that live in my body. But because it was really about Elizabeth and about Chris and their experience, I think a lot of us, and again, maybe I should just speak for myself, but we sort of wrapped around them as like second-degree grievers or as, you know, like maybe tertiary, just like out, just a couple degrees away from the actual experience itself. And I think it's also my nature and my profession to be more of like a caregiver. And so it it was not, I didn't really feel like I got to grieve in front of my sister as much. And I don't know how she felt about it. I wonder if she would have wished that I would have been more outward with my expression. So I took my grief to, you know, my therapy, which I've been in therapy forever, and and my mentor and my support systems, because I didn't want to burden her with what was going on for me. And I think over time we've been able to have more and more shared experience of the grief. But yeah, it's an interesting thing, I think, that happens where, you know, another, another really important moment to me was I remember Elizabeth looking at our mom and just saying, mom, like, like, like as if do something about what was going on. And our mom was just like just lifted her hands in the air, kind of like there was nothing to be done. And I know that Elizabeth was in so this just particular grief process, and I was just witnessing it. And that again, like this is really soul-crushing, like grief-stricken moment for me to witness her in that too. So yeah, I don't know if Elizabeth would like me sharing that. Maybe Michelle can chime in.
SPEAKER_02I think it's okay. I think Elizabeth, you know, we all we were raised by a single mother, we were raised incredibly close. You know, there are four sisters. We haven't brought up Nicole, but Nicole was part of this process as well, our youngest sister. I think that we all have our place in like a family dynamic, and Elizabeth has always been, you know, very steady present, but she's not the most outspoken. But I do think she has, you know, it's the before and after, too, right? I don't know if Elizabeth would have done something like start this foundation without this lock, you know, or or put herself out there in the frame. And Chris too. I just have really been marveled at how they have opened up their lives and looked for ways to connect to us and to people who've also had processes like this. You know, we one year for after your birthday, we had a mosaic made in a park near their house, and it's a children's memorial, and Elizabeth will go there frequently um and see other parents there or other family members there who have you know are putting flowers on the memorial for their children. And my gosh, like you know, she'll say, Oh, I connected with this person. And that was not who she was before this experience. So I really do believe that grief changes you, and mostly in my experience, it changes people for the better, you know, it it makes them more open, which feels very counterintuitive, honestly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, there's so much that's beautiful about that. That memorial sounds incredible. I I I you'll have to share with me where people can find it. So if we have any people listening in San Francisco who haven't found it yet, they can. And thank you for sharing your personal experience with grief around Asher, because I think that a lot of people go through that, where you know, you you have to center the person who is perhaps grieving the most. And it is, it is necessary to not make it about you, right? And at the same time, you have to acknowledge that you have your own grief that does need to be processed as well. So, you know, it is complex. And I mean, that's life. Life is complex, right? And our emotions are complex. And I do agree with you, Michelle. Like I think that moving, moving through grief, it just changes you, but you know, does make you more open and more able to be expressed. I think that would be the hope, right? I think that the more we can help people find resources to support them in grieving the way that works best for them, the more we can have people who who benefit as as strange as it sounds from moving through this kind of process. So I'd love for you to share any advice you might have. I think we've got two sides, both for someone who's going through grief and also for someone who has someone close to them who is going through grief.
SPEAKER_00You want me to okay, okay. So yeah, I we we spoke about this a little bit actually while we were prepping, and Michelle and I were both both talking about like really the allowance or acceptance. I mean, acceptance is such a big word, it's such a hard word. It's like you get to a point where it's like, I accept that this happened. And I think allowance is maybe a little bit more of a gentle word that offers more space. Like allowing this process to happen, allowing yourself to be in the experience is so meaningful. There's a terminology, there's like an idea in Buddhist philosophy around the second arrow. So the idea is like the first arrow is like the pain I'm experiencing, and the second arrow is my judgment of that pain, my rejection of that pain. So, uh, or what we could say, like what resists persists. Like the more that I fight against the fact that I'm experiencing this, I have this like layered experience. Now I'm feeling my pain, my suffering, and then I'm telling myself it's not okay that I'm feeling that. I'm telling myself that I'm weak for feeling that. I'm saying no one wants to see me like this, so don't feel that way. So allowing whatever is here to be here, and I highly recommend the work of Tara Barack on this topic, especially her resources around RAIN, R-A-I-N is an acronym. And you can go on her website and her podcasts are free. It's a really amazing place to find someone talking you through, like how to allow yourself experience your emotions. So I think that's a really important piece of advice I would give somebody. And allowing sometimes means having community therapists, acupuncturists around you who validate that it's okay that you're going through this. Because again, I don't know that a lot of people have had the experience of feeling like their emotions are welcome in the world. So knowing that there are people who validate like it's okay that you're having this experience, which ties into this other thing that Michelle had brought up around community. So, you know, of course, grief is a personal process. And it is through interpersonal relationships that a lot of it can be healed. So it's both an inward and an um outward experience and trying to navigate, like not totally cloistering yourself, even though there might be times where you need to be alone, but allowing yourself to be around company and others who both validate and understand and share your experience. I don't know if you want to talk more about community or something else, Michelle.
SPEAKER_02I really appreciate what Stephanie had to say about the Buddhist philosophy around arrows. You know, for me, I didn't I didn't like the way that grief was expressing itself in my life. You know, I didn't like the way it looked. I try to have a funny disposition in my life, I try to be a positive person, and it was wreaking havoc on that part of my identity. And so, you know, I think when I finally gave myself permission to not be the extroverted, easygoing person that I identified in part of my personality, you know, when I was when I allowed myself to say, I'm gonna show up, and I maybe I'm gonna I'm gonna be a little more passive than I normally would be. I'm gonna I'm gonna try another way of being in the world that might not be the thing that feels like who I am normally in Fortesian art. That really allowed me some grace and some ease. And I think understanding that again, it's not gonna I'm not gonna be the exact same as I was before. So I felt the more that I muffled and tried to make it as it was before, I couldn't, you know, I wasn't I wasn't making progress, and so I wasn't really confronting the brief. I think what something is really dead on, you know. To me personally, it's been about being like this can be messy, this can be ugly, you know, this can can be less flattering, but actually it's part of that big internal shift that's happening, and it's it's a natural part of what is going on. And then you know, the more open you are about that, the less you fight it, you know, the like everything in life, as it turns out, you know, the more you embrace, the better off it's gonna work out for you. So that was definitely my experience with moving through it.
SPEAKER_01Great. And I would love for you to also share, you know, do you have any advice for people who have someone close to them going through grief? How can they be supportive? And what is also not helpful?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have a big one on this, which is anything that tries to talk your friend or loved one out of their experience is not helpful. Anything that's like, you know, looking at the bright side, or it's just not the time. Eventually we can get there to like, what are the, you know, we're talking a lot about things like, wow, my whole identity changed and look at you know how wonderful my life is now. But that takes time. That's not something that happens early on. And it's for the person themselves to find their way through that process. So, you know, again, identity shifts are so tremendous and exciting, but when you're in one, it feels like hell. It's the worst thing in the world because everything you knew to be true about yourself is literally having its own death process. So now you're having this death process internally, and somebody wants to be like, don't worry, you'll get through this. And it's like, this is not the time for that. What the time is really like is taking the person who's grieving, taking their lead and holding space with them. So letting them, letting them be where they are at, sitting with them in their experience, if you have the capacity to, you know, holding good boundaries when you don't have the capacity to, because forcing yourself as the caretaker to be with somebody when you don't have that availability, it is felt by the other person. So that's when, yeah, we do, it's a web of support. And I really think like it's really wonderful when you are able to be that close of a friend or that close of a loved one to somebody. But knowing that trying to be the one and only that they rely on, it can take a toll on the caretaker too. So really trying to again engage this community web that we have. And you know, we've talked a little bit about different modalities, whether it's finding a meditation teacher like Tara Brock, whether it's finding an acupuncturist, finding an EMDR therapist, going to a scuba class, like uh going to the class. I think that was the name of the workout class you were talking about. Just finding other places and you can be that person who's like, hey, like, you know, can I offer you a resource? Can I direct you to Astro's Angels Foundation? So supplying resources, but not forcing somebody to be where they're not. That is, I think, the number one thing in grief and also just in the work I do with clients that really hurts somebody when they're in their pain process, is when somebody's like, you know, tries to minimize the experience. And we don't think we are. We think we're being helpful by saying, don't worry, you know, time heals all. And and while that's a beautiful sentiment and somewhat true, time does help heal. It's it just often, especially when we're in our most acute phase of grief, is not a helpful sentiment because we don't have access to that in that moment. In that moment, we're not, time hasn't happened yet. We're still in the early stages, or time has happened and it hasn't healed. So then what's wrong with me? That like it has been six months, two years, 12 years, and still I suffer. And so then it's it ends up making the person grieving, I think, in a lot of cases, feel more, you know, dismissed and devalued in their process than actually offering the help that these, again, beautiful sentiments, but sort of not complex enough to meet somebody in their experience. These platitudes can be like ideologically great, but in practice, like not super useful. And yeah, so I think offering resources and being with somebody and are are really the the main things that we can do as supporters of grievers. And some of that is the outreach that we're talking about. You know, maybe that means that like, you know, you have a friend who is going through an illness and you wanna, you know, maybe they have cancer, and your way of supporting is to run a marathon that is like for folks with cancer. That that I think these are ways also. If you're like, I need to do something with my hands, uh finding some way to outreach and give back is another lovely way to do it. If you don't think that you have like kind of the space or availability to sit with somebody in their process.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was I love that because I was going to say some people don't feel a natural impulse to listen and to stay in conversation with somebody, but maybe they're a fantastic cook or they're like really good at saying, I have this weekly class, I I knit, you know, I I our sister Elizabeth knits, which is a something that we'd like to incorporate into the foundation. So, how can you connect with them if you're not necessarily having a strength that feels like an immediate tie to what could be useful? You know, for me, a lot of it was just getting to know my new environment and feeling like somebody wanted to integrate me into a community. So, you know, if they're if that person who's grieving is up for it, you could say, you know, do you want to go to this event? Do you want to go to this museum? Do you want to go see this thing? You know, we don't have to talk about grief. If you want to talk about it, we can. I have a friend who has had an extreme loss, and I was just like, her her mother passed away. And I just said, anytime you feel the impulse to call your mom, why don't you just call me instead? And I'll listen to you. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I can, I certainly won't be able to replicate her mother, but I think maybe she'll feel like she doesn't have to sit in that, that she can extend herself to someone else, you know. And likewise, we are going through, you know, a loss in the family right now, which is a complicated loss. And I feel like people have just been so great about like, let me know if you need a friend right now. So I think that sort of gentle touch can be great. And totally, totally agree with Stephanie. I would say the number one thing isn't to not impose your own idea of how this grief has to look or your own assumptions about the outcome of the grief for the other person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, all of that is so valuable. And I do have to say that one of the most terrifying things about going through my divorce was that so much of my social life was wrapped up in my marriage. And I knew that that was going to be the hardest part for me that I had to build community. And for me, that was looked like me reaching out to people a lot. But then when people remembered me and they invited me to things that was so helpful. And I, and I'm kind of still in that process because like Michelle, not long after my divorce, I moved cross-country. And so, you know, starting over in a you know, a different a different way. I I do feel like my my my feelings around my grief around my divorce had mostly healed all this here, but I'm still, you know, creating that new identity and that new life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Can I say two more things? Is that okay?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So when Michelle was talking about off making an offer, like Michelle offering, like, yeah, call me if you want to call your mom. I this is to me, I've I like teared up a little bit when you shared that, Michelle. That's such a sweet offering. And so important that she is unattached to if her friend had been like, no, thanks. Because this, I think, can also be like, now I'm wounded that you don't want my offer. So I think really, as friends and family, it's so important to be unattached, not just to like where they're at in their process, but if they turn you down, that's super important. Because again, remembering that this person is at the center of the grief right now. And that it's just we're we're wrapping around them with support. And the last thing, you know, when our family was going through the loss of Asher and so much was going on, folks sent Elizabeth and Chris our chefs, uh, and they were chefs in the San Francisco dining scene for like years and years and years. So we had a ton of like really good food coming our way, which was amazing. That was such a huge support. Or if somebody couldn't cook, they sent like a Grubhub gift card or whatever. But it was really the people who didn't do anything, I think, because of maybe their own fear or concern about getting it wrong. That that really is what broke our family's heart, I think, more than anything else. Because there were times when somebody would call and say something and it would be slightly wrong. But it it's better, I think, to make an effort than to do nothing at all. So knowing that your loved one is going through a grief, those are the people that didn't show up in any capacity at all. That I think it was just really, really hard for our family to imagine that they didn't, you know, not a text, not a phone call, not a, you know, gift card, just nothing. That I think that was some of the some of the hardest things, especially for Elizabeth and Chris, to feel like, you know, they shouldn't have like kind of like what you were saying, Natalie, maybe differently, but they shouldn't have to reach out to you, right? Like you know that they're going through the loss of their son. So like making some kind of effort, I think is really, really important and not doing anything can be much more hurtful than you imagine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you for saying that, because I think so much of what could be improved in like our lives and society is about taking the risk to reach out to someone even if you're not sure what to do. And then obviously it applies in this situation with grief, but I think it applies to everything. And I think we would all be less lonely and a lot happier if we make the effort, even if we're doing, even if we end up doing it wrong, because that's how we learn. And, you know, create helping others create community also, or feel supported by a community, I should say, is also, that's not why you should do it, but it's also creating those feelings that someone can be there for you when you need it. And it's, you know, we we have to build, build that in both directions. And that's just part of being human. This has been a wonderful conversation. Thank you both so much for being here. I appreciate you so much. And I really appreciate the work that you're doing with Asher's Angel Foundation. We're going to share links so that you can find the foundation and, you know, check out their upcoming workshops and uh drop-in sessions and all of that. Is there anything that either of you would like to share before we wrap up this conversation?
SPEAKER_02I just want to say thank you, Natalie, for you know, talking about some things that feel either hard to talk about or, you know, yeah, taboo, difficult to say out loud because definitely I feel similarly. I wish I had this kind of thing to listen to when I was going through painful times in my life and to know where resources are and to know how to address certain things. You know, we're we're not taught how to move through some of the stickier parts of our lives. And so I just really appreciate the forum you've created and am so glad to be here today. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, similarly, I I'm really grateful for this opportunity. I think I know that one of Wendy Blackstern's missions is to shift the cultural narrative around grief and the idea that it's not okay to talk about loss with each other. So, yeah, anytime that we can have more conversations, be with each other and and sort of destigmatize and demystify this experience together, you know, I think it's it's something profound and really powerful to do. So thank you for having us here today and letting us share about our experiences.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're so welcome. And thank you for all of your expertise. It's it's really welcome to have that information to add to the conversation. I just wanted to bring up one point that I forgot, which is that the grief groups at the Ashworth Angel Foundation are not limited to one type of grief. So, do you want to speak a little bit about that? And so that people who have maybe not identified with any specific story we've shared during today's podcast still feel welcome to join you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for mentioning that. You know, I think because of maybe the fact that what we're talking about is infant loss, then maybe other people are like, well, I didn't go through that specific thing. But truly, as you said, Natalie, this is something that we invite anybody who's experiencing any kind of grief. There is a really wonderful book called The Wild Edge of Sorrow by Francis Waller, and he talks about just the many different griefs that we can be having. We can be having environmental grief. As Michelle mentioned before, there's grieving in community, there's grieving about experiencing oppression or marginalization. And to me, that is just as a meaningful of a topic to bring up as if you did experience infant loss or the loss of a spouse, a sibling, a parent. So I would like to identify my definition of grief as being you wished one thing had happened and something else happened instead. You are welcome to come and share that experience with us. And maybe there are people who are having a different experience, a more culturally acceptable loss than you are. And your grief is still valid, whatever it is. And part of this sharing circle experience is that like normalizing that grief can show up in many ways, many different colors, many different uh shapes and sizes. So yeah, we we want to welcome you. And over time, if we have a lot of folks who are interested in showing up, I mean we might separate more specifically and tailor a group to that particular audience. But for now, we are really very open to folks coming in and sharing their story. Great.
SPEAKER_01That's such a wonderful note to end on. I hope you found today's episode valuable and picked up some ideas to find support or provide support to the people in your life who you love. If you want to share anything about what today's podcast brought up for you, I'd love for you to join the conversation on the podcast blog or on the Embodied Way Substack. You can find the links in the show notes. This episode wraps up the first half of season one. This is the perfect time to catch up on previous episodes and share it with people who you think will resonate with this season. Please take a moment to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform and don't forget to subscribe so that you're the first to know when we return this fall. Have a wonderful weekend.