Guys N' Chai with Qasim Rashid, Esq. | Service, Authenticity & Refusing to Wear a Mask

"Life is far more rewarding when you can be honest with yourself."

In this episode of Guys N' Chai, Ankur Varma sits down with Qasim Rashid — human rights lawyer, author, and one of the most recognizable South Asian Muslim public voices in America — for a conversation about what it actually costs to live a public life without a mask.

Qasim talks about the father he lost last year and the family lineage of service he was raised in, going back to a grandfather in Pakistan who kept feeding an abusive neighbor because the obligation to serve wasn't contingent on being treated well. He walks through his framework for responding to online hate without absorbing it, why he treats trolls as opportunities for what he calls collateral education, and why he refuses to stay quiet on positions that cost him clients, speaking gigs, and years of income.

This is a conversation about faith, resilience, and what it takes to stay whole in public.

The real conversation starts where the script ends. Pull up a cup.

Hosted by Ankur Varma, LCPC — licensed psychotherapist and co-founder of Brown Man Therapy.

Find Qasim at qasimrashid.com. Subscribe to his newsletter at qasimrashid.substack.com. Follow him @QasimRashid across all platforms.

Follow Guys N' Chai on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. Learn more at brownmantherapy.com.

Learn more about Guys N' Chai Podcast and Brown Man Therapy, a non-profit organization bringing awareness and solutions to South Asian men's mental health, by visiting us at the spaces below:

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Guys and Chai. I'm Angkor Varma, licensed psychotherapist and co-founder of Brown Man Therapy, a nonprofit focused on normalizing mental health conversations among South Asian men, connecting them to culturally grounded care and building strong community networks. We're very excited to talk to today's guest who I'll intro in just a second. If you're tuning in for the first time, Guys and Chai is a space where honest, unscripted conversations about mental health, identity, and pressure unfold between men trying to make sense of their lives beyond success. Ghostim Rashid is our guest today, and um I could probably read you his bio for the whole episode, but I'll keep it kind of short here. So Ghostim is a human rights lawyer, author, and former congressional candidate. Professionally, Ghostum is uh supports major organizations, small businesses, candidates for office, and nonprofits to improve their corporate strategies, messaging, and innovation. His work has taken him everywhere from representing asylum seekers and domestic violence survivors to advocating for universal religious freedom. He's written for Time, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR, and now publishes a daily substack called Let's Address This. You can probably also find Gotsum on all your social media platforms, responding to people, clapping back and informing them of what's uh what's actually accurate out there. And so um Gotsum, I'm really, really um happy that you could join us today. Um you probably recognize Yeah, thank you. Um you recognize that bio probably from one of your websites or one of your your bios that's out there publicly. And and I like reading those out um because that's what people know a lot of times. But uh really in the in the idea of this podcast is for us to learn about the human behind some of the success and some of those titles that you have. And so that's where I'd love love to start with you is tell us a little bit about the human um behind some of the work that you've done.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Oh well, thanks for having me. It's always great to have these conversations. Uh I I mean, I I think I'm just a regular guy who's got uh who married up, has three great kids, uh, and just doing what I can to, you know, Muhammad Ali has a quote that service to others is the rent you pay for your time here on earth, and I'm just trying to make my rent. So um that's that's kind of the extent extent of it. Um I I I love reading, I like running marathons and uh beating my kids at Mario Kart. Um, no matter how much they insist, I let them win, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

So yeah, yeah. Which which version of Mario Kart?

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Um so I'll I'll play Mario 64, but I think that Mario Kart 8 on Wii is kind of my thing, or Nintendo Switch, that's kind of my thing at this point.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Okay. Yeah, I I consider myself a master of Mario Kart 64, so I love I love that. I love that. Um, so so tell us a little bit about, you know, uh where wherever you want to start. But you know, I know that you know you've you've got deep roots here in in Chicago as well as Virginia. Your your family is from Pakistan. Um I'd love to hear a little bit more about how you came up um as you made this journey into the work that you do as a as a lawyer, as a as a political and public figure. Um but w where was your upbringing?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

You know, we we just uh celebrated Father's Day or observed Father's Day, whatever you want to call it. Um and I just lost my father last year in uh March 20th of last year, he passed, and it was his birthday um on Juneteenth as well. And so a lot of a lot of emotions, a lot of things happening simultaneously. And I, you know, my parents is where I attribute a lot of uh my upbringing to in terms of um not just being there emotionally and and practically, but also from a principles, morals uh standpoint. And I think the single biggest lesson that they infused in me was this uh element of service uh to others. And I know that sounds cliche and and you know um you know convenient, but I I can say with honesty that the only time I ever really got yelled at about stuff was when there was something that a neighbor needed and I was lazy about it, or when there was something that needed to be done uh for the community or and I was I had to be pushed for it. Uh my father was uh an Islamic scholar, an imam, uh deeply devout, observant Muslim, never once imposed anything on my siblings and or I never once forced anything on us from a faith perspective. But when it came time to actually serve the community, there was no debate. It wasn't a question of whether we felt like it or not. It was you're gonna serve your community because that's why you're here. And if you're not willing to do that, then you've missed the entire point. And so that that really has kind of framed um my upbringing, uh, everything that I've done from you know undergrad to going to law school to pursuing human rights law to now advocating for marginalized communities, it really kind of stems from this point, this this kind of pinnacle of this genesis, that your your focus here, um, whether it's uh your your actions or whether it's exemplifying your faith, it they both point to the same thing of how are you doing your best to improve the community around you. And if that's if that's the focus, you're gonna be good. If it's not, then you're you're you know, his exact words were you're engaged in a fantastic waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Well, I'm sorry to hear about uh your father's loss. He was sounds like a an amazing man and uh imparted some really important values and principles to you that I I see in your work to this day. Um what was was it did it feel always like okay, we are part of a community, or you know, I know there are sometimes many communities that we are raised in, especially if we're raised in in the US, that we we feel part I know I felt part of, you know, my Hindu Indian communities sometimes, but also then we didn't always live close to those folks. And and and so I'm curious how how how was that for you in terms of being part of the Muslim community as well as the the larger community in in the places that you were raised?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Well, of course, there was within our Muslim community uh heavy engagement, youth retreats, uh Dr. Highway cleanups, international trips. Um that was always great from a social grounding and upbringing and keeping company with people doing uh you know uh maybe ideologically aligned with you. It is important. There's no doubt about that. Sourcially aligned, it's it's important. Um I I always think about my earliest teachers when we immigrated to the United States, were uh black Muslim women and men who were um you know uh entrenched in the civil rights movement of the 1960s. And so, you know, we got here in the 1980s, and so all the aunties and uncles at the mosque were the black aunties and uncles that that were in the civil rights movement. And for me, that was a big part of my upbringing. And I just kind of took that as normal, that everyone has this upbringing. It didn't really occur to me until many years later that actually I was extraordinarily privileged and fortunate to have that kind of an upbringing. And so that community was kind of the core, the foundation. And then the broader community was what are we doing to improve the lives of our neighbors around us? You know, the the folks who lived around the mosque, the folks who lived around our homes. Uh, how did we engage with them in any kind of meaningful way? And, you know, for for us, and I just wrote about this for my father, that, you know, every year, one small thing of many was between Christmas and New Year's in the freezing Chicago winters, uh, he would take us to uh our neighbors door by door and hand out boxes of chocolate to build that relationship and to kind of acknowledge um that it's their holiday as well, and acknowledge a new year and a new opportunity. Um I mean, I think that normalization of engagement, of interaction, it was a two-way street, right? Because one, it was it gave us confidence that, hey, you're you're part of this community, you're responsible for this community, and you need to be confident in how you engage and how you carry yourself. But then it was also uh a normalization to our mostly white Christian neighbors that, hey, there's brown Muslim immigrant families here, and they are your neighbors, and they're here to reach out to you and to receive you. And, you know, some uh may not have, you know, felt the same way about us as we did about them. They may not have been as opening, but that's okay because that's the whole point of the engagement, of the interaction, of you know, to be able to have those conversations. And um, and again, that's something that I'm trying to infuse in, and my wife and I are trying to infuse in our kids today. That's something that I try to continue to do the work that I do today. So it's it's kind of cool for me now, you know, after my parents are they've both passed, after they're gone, to kind of reflect back and and kind of trace the lineage of the work that we're doing now and trace it back to 35, 40 years ago when at the time I had no idea what was down the road. My father did, and he sent me down that path, and now I can look back and understand and see what he saw that I just couldn't have seen back then.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

This culture of service in your family, does it go back to Pakistan? Did it start with your parents? Where did that come from? It seems really embedded.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Thank you. I mean, it it the the core of this is this is what Islam teaches that your responsibilities are two as a Muslim, service to God and service to humanity, and you cannot fulfill your service to God unless you first fulfill service to humanity. This was kind of the core. And there's a, you know, uh a really, you know, like in the family lore, there's a story of my grandfather who was the first person to join our particular Muslim community. He grew up as a Sunni agnostic, he joined the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, he was the only one in his village to have done so, and he was uh a scholar. He was a school principal and an academic and scholar, and he joined the community. And as a result, he went from being welcomed by the entire village to being kind of the outcast. Um but because he was also by no means wealthy, but you know, he was able to make ends meet in a more consistent manner, uh, one of his neighbors was extraordinarily destitute and also extraordinarily abusive. And despite that, he would make sure that his neighbor had a meal every night. Uh, this was something that was sacred to him. And uh one day, this neighbor said some extraordinarily abusive things to my grandmother. And um my uh grandmother responded in kind, uh, not in an abusive way, but in a way that said that it doesn't, you know, you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you. And um, the family lore is that when my grandfather heard of this, he became extraordinarily upset and embarrassed and went to this person and asked for their forgiveness and gave them more food as an apology. And and to me, you know, I get emotional thinking about it, but I I mean he my grandmother and grandfather had a wonderful marriage and lasted until you know they departed. But in this situation, as much as he loved his wife, he wasn't willing to let ego get in the way of doing what needed to be done. And there's a verse in the Quran that that says, you know, let not a people's enmity against you cause you to act other than with justice. Be always just. And to me, this is the exemplification of that, that this neighbor was acting unjust, he was acting like a complete, you know, jerk, whatever, you know, uh pejorative you want to describe him as. But he knew, my grandfather knew that his obligation was to serve his neighbor not for any other reason than this was the obligation that God had imposed upon him, but he had willingly accepted. And as a result, he wasn't willing to let ego get in the way or to say, I'm only gonna help you because you're nice to me. He was, I'm gonna support you and serve you because it's the right thing to do, it's the moral and just thing to do. And so I think about that often. It's um, you know, it's it's easy in hindsight to to look back and say, well, you know, what a great thing he did. But when you're in the situation, it's a lot more difficult. And I think that's a standard that we need to call ourselves to. It's the standard I kind of call myself to. And again, I want to reemphasize: my grandfather didn't do this of his own accord. He did this because this is what the Islamic teaching is. This is you can look at examples of the life of the Prophet of Islam Muhammad, peace be upon him, where this was exemplified in his life. And I think that's really what we're called to do. You know, uh, it can't be contingent upon whether somebody is the same religion as you or the same, you know, class or creed or whatever differentiating factor you want to call. It has to be whether the other person is a human being or not. And if they are, then that should be the only qualification. There should be nothing else necessary for us to do whatever we can to support those around us. And and I'm I'm grateful that that's something that uh our parents infused in us uh at a very early age So putting, you know, putting the community and putting these values above self.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Um and it again, that feels like a really tough battle, you know, that you're you're talking about with your grandmother and and what is the limit to the abuse that you can take? And and your grandfather's perspective seemed to be doesn't matter. This is for the, you know, for a greater good of sorts. And and you know, uh I I one of the thoughts that I had for you or questions that I have for you is because, you know, it's funny, I will uh I I've limited my social media intake in a lot of ways, but there are times where I'll jump on it, it doesn't matter, Reddit or um threads or wherever it is, and somebody will be giving a response to some misinformation, and like it feels like half the time it's you. And and I look at the name and I'm like, oh, that's gonna give me get it giving the the right information or the clarification or the history or the knowledge that is necessary for for the context here. And you know, uh and one thing I wanted to ask you about because I sometimes struggle with this, is how do we how do we keep up the the good fight in the midst of adversity and um in the midst of of hatred sometimes. And and you know, and and maybe that's not a direct connection to this exact story, but in in some ways I I think you know that's a that's I I've seen that um in my own communities in terms of you know where I grew up in Ohio and and and 9-11 happening and then you know the impact on the Muslims in our community and and um you know so I I'm I'm just curious, where do you keep finding the energy um to do this and to do it in it's always respectful, it's always without belittling the other person or patronizing them. And so um what is your secret?

SPEAKER_00 14:29

I you know, I I don't think it's anything special or uh I mean uh I don't see it as any kind of a big deal. I think you're being extraordinarily kind, and I'm appreciative of you for being kind, and that's in your nature to be kind, and I appreciate that about you. Uh I'll also add, I don't think it's anything special to give me a pat on the back for. I mean, it's kind of the bare minimum in my view. And I think my perspective is that the problems that we're trying to solve are how do we end world hunger? How do we end poverty? How do we end disease? How do we end abuse? Um those are the things that we're trying to solve. I can't get distracted or get offended in a way that makes me lose my focus because somebody called me a sand n-word, which happens regularly. Um it doesn't solve anything, right? If I get distracted by somebody, you know, like a squirrel with the next, you know, acorn that falls missing the fact that we're trying to save the tree, then it it's a waste of my time. And so that's my first focus that I'm not here to uh worry about some ordinary person on the internet with, you know, a name and a bunch of numbers who's probably a bot trying to rile me up. That's one. Two, I see there's a much greater value in a term I've coined called collateral education, where whoever the person I'm responding to, I don't actually expect them to accept that they were wrong. Because that's just not the way human beings work. Right? Facts unfortunately don't convince people that they're wrong. That's just and you know, we're not hardwired that way for whatever reason. What I'm focused on is who else is watching. I've got a large platform, I've got millions of people who follow my social media and millions more who see my content. You know, the social media gives you the impression counts nowadays, and you know, in a given month, I'm getting several hundred million people that are reading my content across the internet. And so my view is you know, whoever this troll is, I I may or may not be able to get through to them, but guess what? The fact that this information is out there, it means that people have questions and they may not have the ability to know where to look or how to find a reliable answer. And so for me, it's how do I be unassailable in my facts, in my integrity? You know, how do I bring the receipts so it's people can know that they can trust me so that when I do provide an answer, even if they may not have all the information up front, at the minimum, they've followed me long enough to know that, hey, I only put out verified factual information. Or if I make a mistake, which I'm you know, a human being, I will, I will rectify that and own up to it. And and so that to me is the real win. Where's where someone you know may not be convinced, but those around them, then the collateral impact, the collateral education is such that we change the narrative, we we shift the orbits and window, we create better conditions for understanding and tolerance. And you know, I I can't go a week or even a couple of days, and sometimes multiple times a day, where someone will email me and say, hey, I had this wrong view, but after reading your response, I have a better understanding and I appreciate that. And that's all you can ask for, right? I mean, it's it's not anything grand. It's a sometimes it's a DM, sometimes it's a quick one-liner email. Um, but it for me it's enough. It's an indication that, hey, this is actually working and this is actually having an impact. And and that's where I think I draw a lot of energy from to know that we're winning one more person at a time. Because I'll I'll tell you this, and and not and I'll not to kind of belabor the point, but I have this distinct memory from my childhood. I was maybe seven, eight years old, maybe nine, I can't remember. It was definitely before I was 10, but I was I was a young child. And, you know, back in the days before cell phones, we had answering machines where you'd go out for the night uh to dinner, to an event, you'd come home and you check the messages on your answering machine. And I remember coming home one night after some you know dinner or dabat, we went to someone's home, we come back at nine, ten o'clock at night, and my dad goes into his office to check the answering machine, and you know, I'm following him. And the the message played was some uh alleged Christian who I you know claimed he was Christian, but the most, you know, reckless, disgusting verbal attacks and assaults, dehumanizing name calling, anti-Muslim, you know, sand n-word, you you name it, right? Just kind of across. And I remember the look on my father's face, and it was a look of pain, and I didn't quite understand it. And I realized later that it wasn't that he was offended, it was that he uh realized that his son is gonna grow up in this world and that this is the kind of world that I'm gonna be facing. And, you know, as as fate would have it, um, the the week after my father died, uh I was taking my kids to his cemetery to again just pay respects because you know they missed their grandfather's well. And and while we're driving there, uh somebody pulls up next to us and starts spewing the exact same kind of hateful rhetoric towards me. Same and I flashed back to 35 years prior when you know seven, eight-year-old me saw this, and now my kids around the same age hearing the exact same thing in real time. And to me, it was this full circle moment of we need to do more because this can't happen. I can't have my kids be 40 years old, 45 years old, and then face the same thing with my grandkids hearing the exact same thing. It's not sustainable, it's not viable, it's not it's indefensible. And so for me, that's where I get the energy that we need to keep giving hope to our kids, as James Baldwin talks about. And we you know, we can rest when we're dead, but in the meantime, while we're here, we can't give up. It's it's too the stakes are too high to give up. It's exhausting, I know. It's infuriating, enraging, I know, but we can't be hopeless, we can't give up.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, I really love that. Um, as as a kind of a remotivator filler of your cup, um, and and being able to reframe these things is sometimes really, really challenging. Um did you ever waver when you were younger? Did did you ever doubt? Um, did it always feel pretty solid that you could, you know, rely on these values um as a go-to, or or did you have a any sort of I don't know, rebellious phases the right, but you know, questioning of of certain things or questioning of of the work and how how did you how did you move through that?

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Well what helped immensely was that everything my father preached, he practiced. Everything my parents preached their practice. I I think a lot of people who kind of go through um that struggle, one reason why, I don't I don't want to give generalizations, but one reason why is because the people that they looked up to, they realized that they actually don't practice what they preach themselves. And one thing that I saw was there was nothing that um my my dad asked me to do that he wasn't already exemplifying himself. And so it wasn't that, hey, I'm gonna sit here and hang out, you go and figure it out. Um it was let's let's do this together and come with me. And it that was leadership. So so that helped immensely. And like I said, on a faith perspective, there was never a a force or a push that you have to do this, you must do this, or you must believe this, or don't ask questions and believe blindly. That was contrary to everything that we were taught. If we had questions, let's answer them, let's talk about them. them bring the bring the questions read the books by the critics you know I I and I think that that's where kind of the to to to more specifically answer your question is on that side when I had questions and it did bother me it wasn't let me prove you know the people being critical of Islam wrong and prove us right it was go figure it out it wasn't that let me give you the answer it was go read the books read the critics see what they have to say understand it for yourself and that to me was a big validator as well because as frustrated as I was it wasn't this indoctrination of oh those guys are wrong and you don't even need to read their stuff let me just tell you why they're wrong it was yeah go read it go there there's nothing if you have truth you have nothing to be afraid of um and and that to me was so revolutionary because I think so often in this society uh we are afraid to ask questions because it might be taboo we're afraid to to look behind the veil because we're afraid of what we might see and from the way we were raised when I started to have questions or doubts it wasn't hey slow down pull back you're going down the wrong path it was speed up go faster see what's behind that veil understand if you let them make the argument understand why they believe what they believe and I mean that I love that because it's opened my mind to everything else because it's not just a matter of faith now. Now it's hey based on the facts that I have in front of me this is what I think is the right answer. But if you think you have better facts then give them to me and guess what I will change my perspective with new facts with new information it it removes the ego from the conversation and makes you forces yourself to say hey I have to be honest with my conscience and this has helped immensely I I went to law school I'll give you one example thinking the death penalty is a really good idea. Like I I there's people who've done horrible crimes and horrible unforgivable crimes and yeah the death penalty makes sense in those situations. I left law school convinced that the death penalty needs to be abolished and it was because I had trained my I had been trained and I had trained myself to look at the facts as opposed to looking at some kind of an emotional response. And and and as as staunch of an advocate as I was for the death penalty going into law school I'm a staunch opponent of the death penalty because now I understand facts that I didn't have before insights I didn't have before. And so I don't see doubt as a bad thing. In fact I see it as an excellent thing. I see it as a wonderful thing. Why have a mind if you're going to limit where it can question why have an intellect if you're going to handicap it and and stifle it from thinking and maximizing its impact. Every idea every innovation every creation that's out there was at one time you know thought to be crazy and insane and a waste of time and lo and behold you know some of the greatest technological advancements happened because somebody said well why not and they pushed conventional wisdom and they achieved something that nobody else thought was possible. And so I think you have to have doubt. And so I I don't think that doubt's ever a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. I think the only time it becomes problematic is when um is when the people that are asking you to believe in something or do something themselves don't do it. That hypocrisy is repulsive to people and it should be repulsive but I think that's where it causes real pain because now you know I am uh not my example but this is the the infamous example of Malcolm X and why he left the nation of Islam because he began to see the grotesque hypocrisy of Elijah Muhammad and realized that this is not what I signed up for. And he made the right decision and left. I mean that that thought in my mind came kind of out of left field but I was trying to think of a good example.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

And I think that is what and and again but that goes back to him being committed to truth and justice over all else and and he was able to make a decision as a c as a result of that I mean a few things there that I I really love about what you're getting at. And you know a lot of what you're getting at is also central to the kind of the tenets of of good therapy right is is to push forward when we qu start to question and understand and approach things with a level of curiosity and a critical eye rather than to let ego drive or fear drive. And you know and and you know the what you shared about your father you know leading by example connects with I I recently heard Dr. Vivek Murthy former US Surgeon General speak and he also spoke about the leadership that his parents exemplified in their actions and and how that then has continued and how he wants to continue that for for his kids. But you know I I love what you're talking about because it also connects to what you said earlier when when you're you know use the example of the acorn and the squirrel getting distracted I think that's a that's a really good way to put it because then we don't look at the tree. We don't look at the bigger issue the root causes of of certain things and and a lot of times and you know social media and and the platforms that are now available to people are really effective right they can be really important and powerful we have seen you know regimes toppled because of people's access to information and to each other and the ability to collaborate and um and and build community for for these just causes. And and so you know I think what what sometimes happens if we get into these ego debates online, the other side of this is is that then we we we forget to recognize the humanity in each other, right? The anxiety or the fear from which those those hecklers that you you deal with online that they're they're coming from a place of of worry of concern for something in their own lives and and they feel like you know something is being taken that they're being maybe misinformed or or they don't have the whole story. But to fight them just on that level and just to fight back is like my anxiety fighting your anxiety never leads to you know somewhere we're somewhere healthy. So I love the idea of of welcoming doubt. You know I think that's so important here and and allowing then the this critical eye and the curiosity to take um take the take the wheel um so that you know we can explore it together and let's let's both change our minds if necessary or both both of us adapt our knowledge. That's what we're you know that's the point, right? We're we hope that our kids know more than us because they have more access to information. They have better technology whatever that looks like and so I really love how you you put that together.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

I want to I want to double down on a point you made that I I've thought a lot about you know in some ways whether somebody sends me an extraordinarily positive and thoughtful email or you know a love note so to speak for lack of a better word versus a hate note in one strange way it's coming from the same place. And what I mean by that is they're both coming from a place of self-preservation. Someone sees something positive in me and they want to connect and they want to be able to build a bridge to say hey yeah we should reinforce this because it makes me feel safer. Someone sees something that they perceive as a threat then they have it's a fight or flight response. They're gonna fight and say hey you don't threaten me I'm safe in who I am and you're not gonna threaten me. And it sounds strange to say but responding in kind to the one who's being threatening is just going to reinforce the hate. But responding in a positive way it may not it may not diminish the hate but at least it won't exacerbate it or it it it decreases the risk of exacerbating it. And it allows there to be an opportunity for them to come back later and say hey maybe I was wrong or maybe I misjudged and that's one of the things that I often see happen as well. I I I remember not aft not long after um Israel began its genocidal assault on Gaza, I got some pretty nasty emails from people who were upset that I was calling this a genocide because I believe it absolutely is a genocide. And um several folks since then in the years since have responded and said I better understand and you're right this is a genocide but I I just want to apologize for the way you know that I treated you and my response every single time has been it's not me you need to apologize for. Let's now work together on stopping this injustice. This is not about my personal ego. It's how do we work together and create a narrative where no one suffers this kind of atrocity or harm. But but I think that requires recognizing that at the end of the day, we all with the exception of a few sociopaths out there, we all across caste, color and creed want the same thing. And that's just a safe world for our our children and a better future for for our next generation.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah absolutely and you know um it takes me back to I think the first time you and I met was a couple years ago when you were on a panel for another organization I'm part of South Asian Solidarity Movement and we talked about um disrupting Islamophobia and you know I think a a lot of this is creating space for information. I remember people that walked away from that conversation that still reference it that we've talked to in our in our community um where you know they felt heard and they they also felt open to changing their mind and and you have to be able to create that space for for each other, right? Rather than forcing somebody into a new box is is going to be really hard for for the process of change. I want to switch switch to you back to you and your personal journey a little bit. I know that you have um run for office uh both in Virginia as well as here in Illinois um and I and I know that comes with uh I have a friend way back in the day that ran for office and I saw a little bit of his his journey um and how difficult that is uh I'm curious you know what that was like for you to to to take your work um into this public kind of sphere and what what came with that journey you know I know I know you didn't win quote unquote win those those elections but you know and and then I know we live in this world of everything is uh either a win or a loss a success or a failure and and part of you know the work that I try to do in this podcast is really understanding kind of the journey behind these things and and so I'm curious if you can share any insights of of your journey into pol politics this these races or uh lessons that you learned from those.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

I love the revolution we're seeing in the politics right now on the left we're we're seeing people like you know Zaron Dani in New York City obviously Christopher Rab in Pennsylvania Maylat Kiros in Colorado Salam Bati in Virginia We're seeing people who look like us both physically but also from a lived experience standpoint finally get their day and not as an anecdote but we're seeing you know a significant number of folks either getting elected or getting very close to being elected and doing it on our values of compassion and unity. And I think that's kind of for me the bigger picture here. I ran you know I can point to what I'm happy about. I'm proud of the fact that we won competitive primary elections twice with record turnout. I'm proud of the fact that in even though we lost in general we had record turnout more than any Democrat in the history of those districts. I'm proud of the fact that we built um you know these massive volunteer armies and I'm proud of the fact that that those kinds of conversations continue to help push the over to the window. And and that's the thing, right? I mean in in Knockdown the House, the documentary AOC talks about for one of us to get through a hundred of us have to run. And that's just a fact and it would have been great to be the one who got through but I the somebody has to be the other hundred uh for the one to get through. And and when your focus is ultimately changing the narrative and shifting the over to the window it it cannot be about me, me, me. It has to be about we, the team, like the organization, the concept, this the societal benefit. And so I I feel extraordinarily grateful that I've had the chance to run. Who knows what the future holds I've got no plans right now but you know the the the future hopefully I live many, many, many more decades and we'll have those opportunities as well. But I think it's to me a validation of what this country can be that an an immigrant from a low-income background can run and be a legitimate candidate, a a Democratic nominee, win the nomination. And it it speaks to uh um where I think more in our South Asian community need to be involved as well. We're great at being doctors and lawyers and engineers um and and blue-collar workers um all those jobs are honorable. We also need to be great at being civically engaged and have a meaningful role in the civic process. It's I think often I I often reflect on the fact that given this the the the the history of white supremacy in our nation that has also inflected our immigration policies um you know our communities couldn't really immigrate here with any kind of reasonable ease until after 1965. And so in many respects we're still in the infancy right if you if you think about it 1965 to now is what only only 60ish years. You know we got here in 87 only 22 years after you know it they they lifted a ban on South Asian immigration of course you know a thinned versus United States 1923 banned all South Asian immigration that was on the books until 1965. And so um we're still in the infancy and and I think our parents generation got here, literally moved heaven and earth to get here, many of them selling everything they had to afford the move, started with scratch and they've given us platforms now to be able to accomplish what they never could. And I think it's up to us now it's our obligation for I mean I was born in Pakistan but I was four years old. I was raised here so yes I'm an immigrant but in many ways I'm also you know uh uh kind of a born American in the context of I was I'd never experienced any kind of adult life in Pakistan and it's all over here. But definitely for my children and and you know the next your children, the next generation, yes, they should be doctors and lawyers and engineers and they should infuse civic engagement at the local local state and federal level in mass numbers. And I think um what what I learned by running for office was one that we are undercutting our own success by not being involved in there. And two, uh we have some amazing talent in our communities and we should we should showcase that talent by helping them get elected into into positions of leadership.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah I love I love what how you frame this about um you know taking from what AOC said you know in terms of you know for one of us to succeed um and and and that really as I hear you talk about it connects with kind of those values that you spoke about from your family, from your father, right? Putting the ego aside to to to push things forward, right? To push the envelope to m normalize it, right? You know, there's so much in in you know I know we grew up any any brown South Asian Muslim like it was that was their identity on the public facing like nothing beyond that nothing about the human beyond it it was always the first this or the first that or the second this right and and now because there's this been process of normalizing you know la where I heard Dr. Murphy speak was at the South Asian political impact conference, which is amazing to me because now there's so many South Asian um politicians and representatives in so many levels of government. And you know for me growing up in in the in the 90s and the 80s to to even imagine that that would be possible um is is still a little little um mind-blowing and awe-inspiring and so uh I love the way that you frame that because you know you you have pushed the envelope and and you have made it um more acceptable for us to talk about some of these things that within our own communities culturally religiously whatever it might be may not be um you know the the status quo and and so I really uh appreciate that how do you talk uh talk a little bit about now you know a lot a lot of us know public facing you what is private facing you like what what's what's uh what's the be like when you put the mic away and you you go out of your studio what what's life like for you I'm the same guy uh that you see online uh there's uh literally no difference um I I might uh you know engage with my kids a little bit differently by you know laughing with them and tickling them and wrestling with them in rough housing as parents do with kids but I I am the same guy and and there's no like TV face or radio face and then you know uh personal friend face.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

And and my friends will tell you that that this is just who I am and that's the only person I know how to be. I I don't understand the folks who have I mean unless you're an actor which of course requires you to act in a certain way but I don't understand people who in the in the public eye of any level who kind of change who they are depending on who they're around. I think it's exhausting. I think it's insincere and I think it's someone who is um maybe insecure about themselves. I I don't know. I I don't you're the you're the expert in this in the psychotherapy space, not me so I I don't want to uh speculate. But um look I mean I I think f for me all of this that I'm doing is not it's not a means uh to like make a living um I love what I do um and that's why I do it and I'm grateful that I can make uh a living off of it uh I'm grateful that I can pay the bills and and put you know clothes on my kids back and food and food in their tummy uh doing what I love doing. And I think that's an important part of this for me. One of the things that anyone in my family will tell you is that um if if my mind is committed to something, then I'm not gonna stop unless it's done. And if I'm not convinced of something or if there's something I don't want to do, like you know, short of God himself, I'm not gonna do it, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:52

It's was that always was that always true for you?

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Probably, yeah. I think I was probably the stubborn one I mean I was a middle child right so I was probably the stubborn one growing up and so you know it just so fortunately happened that I enjoyed school and academics and studying. It just so fortunately happened that I enjoy sports and being outdoors and what and so it was fortunate that the things I like doing were also good habits as well. I mean but that that discipline I think of of course is important. But I I going back to your question that like I mean the guy I am off camera is a guy you're gonna see on camera um because that's the only way I know how to be I think life's too short to put on a mask um and be somebody you're not and that can get you in trouble sometimes. But you know when you take controversial positions um and like I'll just to air that out to be more explicit what I'm talking about. After 10-7 I was advised by many people that don't talk about Israel Palestine. And and I said I will talk about Israel Palestine because I'm a human rights lawyer and it's my job to talk about Israel Palestine. And you know I certainly lost clients. I lost business there's no doubt about it. I I was I I think I went almost a two year span without getting a single offer to to be a a speaker at an event whereas usually I spoke on panels and events, you know, paid gigs pretty regularly. And I can say with confidence that not once did I think to myself yeah I should have stayed quiet. Because what the hell's the point of staying quiet? To make a couple extra bucks? Like I I don't get it. And I say this as somebody who grew up low income, who grew up on food stamps and suction aid housing. So I I can attest to what it's like to struggle and not know whether you're gonna be able to make rights or make ends meet. And so I'm not speaking from a position of, you know, look at me I'm a multimillionaire. I'm not uh it would be nice if I was but my whole point is that at the end of the day I I have found that life is far more rewarding and my mental health is far better when I can just be honest with myself and the public about who I am, what I believe and uh and be transparent and consistent about that. And um and that's kind of what I strive to do. That's what I strive to, you know, the the version you see is the version my kid sees the version that my my wife sees and and life is better that way.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Yeah and and uh I appreciate you know you talking about that because I think that is what's hard. You know I work a lot with men in in therapy and a lot of times you know whatever it's showing up as on the outside on the surface can vary from person to person but a lot of times the work that we're really doing is kind of melding the masks or removing the masks, right? And you know if you are a person at work and B person at home and C person, you know, with friends and family, you know, it's really hard to keep those pieces, you know, in line, right? And to to remember which is which and when it when do I put this one on and that one on and and you know that's r really at the crux of a lot of the identity work that happens in therapy is Who am I? And you know, on a recent episode, my the guest was talking about asking yourself that question multiple times through your life, right? Not just a one-time, okay, I'm in I'm an adult now or now I'm into my career. Who am I? Um, because then we get into identifying with just kind of that outward label rather than what we truly are on the inside. And and so I really like this idea of, you know, uh putting it down, right? So that you don't, it's so much work to maintain the masks. And then what happens eventually too is that you don't remember which mask am I actually on the inside. And so um really appreciate that response. I know we're heading here towards the end. I'd love to understand, you know, two two pieces here. So I'd love to understand kind of anything specific or or general that you are um paying attention to as a parent, as a father, um, for your kids and and how you're raising them in in this world, uh, which is different from the world that you and I grew up in, that our parents grew up in, right? Um, you know, with technology, with with access to information, about AI, you know, with anything, you know, that that we're experiencing. I'm I'm curious kind of how you're how you're focused on raising your kids and and any tools that you um that you go to that that you that are useful to you.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

You know, I I'm paying very close attention to the impact of social media on children and and how it's impacting mental health, it's increasing race of depression, even rates of suicide among children. And so we're we're very closely monitoring how much and how our kids utilize and engage social media. And I get asked this question often that you know, given how active I am on social media, you know, I bet your kids are constantly on social media, or I bet your kids love social media. And I'll be honest, it's kind of an arrogant question. It's kind of a you know, an assumptive um, you know, question that insinuates that um my wife and I maybe aren't able to control our kids. And and so I I do kind of take exception when I get asked that question. Um because very fortunately, we've built an extraordinarily uh, I think, thoughtful system with our kids where we don't ban social media, but the way they engage it or consume it is productive. It's it's a way to help them. It's not just doom scrolling. It's hey, what do you want to learn today? Oh, I want to learn how to do this. Great. Let's look that up and see how that works, and then let's go do it ourselves, and I'll do it with you. And and that to us has been an extremely useful uh way to utilize social media and teach them the right way to use it. Oh, how do you fix this thing on a car? Let's go look up a video and figure out how to fix this. Oh, how do you make this garden bed? Let's do that. How do you draw this? Let's look at that, and then let's actually do it ourselves. So there's a means to the end. So we're teaching them how to use it as a tool. And and again, you know, I I am fortunate, I'm very privileged that my career allows me to be present way more than most parents. I work from home, I travel a lot, but if I'm out of the house, it's 90% of the time it's because I'm traveling out of state or out of country. But otherwise, I'm home. I'm I get to drop my kids off at school, I get to be home when they get home for the most part, unless I'm traveling. And that makes a big difference. Um, I work out. This morning after Fajr prayer, my son and I went to the gym at five o'clock in the morning and we got our workout in at the gym uh together. And it'd be easy for me to say, hey, don't be lazy, go and work out uh while I sit in this nice warm, comfy bed. Um that would be easy, but that's also hypocrisy uh for me, and it's contrary to what I was taught by my father. And so it's a win-win because I get my workout and he gets his workout, and we get some time to bond together. And it's a core memory for him, it's a core memory for me. And it's uh for my other kids as well. If I'm gonna go for a run, they're younger and they're they're 10 and 13, so they can't keep up with me. But guess what? They've got brand new bikes, and it's summer vacation, and I'm going for a run, and I run and they bike with me. And so it allows us to um, you know, being present is is critical uh in this space. And again, I want to emphasize I know parents are working 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week, and it's tough. I will just say this that uh it's not so much the quantity of time, but the quality of time. It's it's the dedicated time where it's one-on-one, where there's no distractions, where even if it's an hour, even if it's half an hour, it's a dedicated window. And and you know, when kids know that they are the center of attention in that space, um, it goes a long way. That's how you build identity, that's how you build trust. So that's one thing we're watching closely because social media changes so quickly and there's just a new thing out every week. Um, but um, but I think by by being present, by utilizing it as a tool effectively, and by by being deliberate with them, helping children understand that they are the center of your world, it can go a long way towards building those relationships that we all want.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah, I love that. How do you maintain your boundaries with social media given that that's a that's a prominent platform for you? Do you are you able to kind of take some time off or step away as necessary?

SPEAKER_00 49:16

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I don't I don't really use social media for uh social reasons at all. Um I I have my social friends that I use for social reasons, um, but you you won't really catch me doom scrolling, you don't really catch me um getting into you know internet beefs with people um or or that kind of back and forth stuff. I utilize it as a tool to gain information, to research information to be deliberate and accurate. And I'm using the broader term, I don't just mean like social media apps, but the internet in general. And so I um I you know I make a deliberate point as well, at least once a year, sometimes twice a year, to take about a week to 10 days and just shut off my social media period personally. Let me just be away from it. Don't check it, don't check apps, don't check notifications, DMs, nothing. And it's great because the same thing happens every year. The first 24 hours, I feel the anxiety and the desire to check and the desire to reach my phone. The second 24 hours, it's a bit more imbalanced. By the third day, I'm like, I don't want to go back. I like not having a ding every five seconds. Um, and when I finally go back after about 10 days, it's with mental clarity, it's with a mental refocus, and it feels fantastic. And so something I highly recommend. But it is it's also a great way for me to force gut my check gut check myself that am I getting addicted to something without realizing it? Because that's how addiction happens, right? You don't realize it's happening. And inevitably, because those first 24 hours I can sense a bit of anxiety, it tells me, yeah, you were on this too much. You needed a mental health break. This is the break you need. Just relax. And that helps calm me down and that I feel great. And as quickly as I feel the anxiety, uh, it dissipates as quickly. And then I typically don't want to go back and I have to go back because I got to make a living somehow.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah, I have a similar experience where I'll take some time off and then, you know, of course, you know, we built Brahman therapy initially on Instagram, and and I have a hard time now sometimes going even on there and and checking things. And my wife has to nudge me, like, hey, you need to respond to some things or do some things.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So Yeah, because you've built a you've built a community, you've built people who trust trust you and and and trust you for your content and your insights. And I want to honor that. And I and I I don't want anyone to feel uh abandoned in that sense either. I mean, I've built real, genuine, meaningful friendships with folks. I genuinely care about the people who follow my content or engage with my content. And um I consider it an obligation uh to provide them that service of information on human rights that they they're not gonna get elsewhere. I I mean that so to me, like it's a calling. It's something I deeply cherish. But even things you deeply cherish need a break from sometimes. And it's important to have those breaks too. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Well, Gossin, thank you so much for joining. I really enjoyed this conversation and really am um take like still sitting with this um kind of aura of service that you you've communicated here, right? And and and how that's helped kind of guide you um through through different pieces of your life and different journeys. And and so thank you very much for for joining today. Anything that you'd like love to share with with our audience um about you, about where to find you, anything that is coming up for you.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Sure. No, I uh would love everyone's support. Uh you can find me across social media platforms at my name at Kasin Rasheed across uh Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Twitter, whatever your preferred social media platform is. I'm probably already on there. It's just my handle. I was fortunate enough to grab my handle as my name. Um and then my sub stack is just my website. Again, my name, KasinRashid.com. No paywall. You can be a paid subscriber if you want, but there's never a paywall. You don't get any special access for being a paying subscriber. You just get the the good vibes of knowing you're supporting independent media and would love to have uh everyone join and help us continue to build this community.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

All right, Gossim. Thank you so much again, and uh hope to talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

Amen, brother. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

All right, take care. Hey everyone. So I just finished up my conversation with Gasim Rashid. Um I'm I'm really sitting with a lot of it, and I'm gonna continue to digest. Um, you know, but I want to just talk about my initial reflections on this conversation. Um, you know, the thing that sticks out to me is the power of Gasim's value system and you know, this, the, the lessons he learned um observing his father, his family, um, in their service to their communities and service without terms. Um, you know, in the face of abuse, adversity, um, uh, of whatever form, whether it was in Pakistan or here in the US, you know, this theme of of of giving to others um and providing to others because that is your belief system rather than what they have done to deserve it, I think is really, really powerful. And I think that's a theme that continues to show up in really you know nuanced intricate ways in the ways that he thinks about his own work. Um, you know, and if if you haven't seen, you know, some of his work, um you're not familiar with with his social media presence, you know, I highly recommend um that you take a look because you know he he does it by removing his ego. And you know, he doesn't uh attach to the emotions of the person that might be spewing sometimes hatred towards him, sometimes just small disagreement in belief systems. But um he does it and he uses term collateral collateral education, you know, and and thinking about not the nut but the tree. And um and I really, really think that's important framework here for us because really what he's talking about is is approaching things with a curiosity and with a critical eye. And when we when we approach things with a critical eye, that doesn't mean that we are saying I am right and you are wrong. We are saying that there is some truth out there, let's go find it. And that is a we process rather than a you and I process. And and so, you know, I I really, really um think that's so important these days, not just, you know, in this political landscape that we are in where there's there's so much black and white, there's so much just two-sidedness to things, but really how we think about our own um inner congruence. You know, how do we, as he talked about a little bit later in the conversation, how do we manage our masks? And for him, he doesn't have a mask. He tries not to. And um, that is such a challenge for us because I think we get so caught up in what we're supposed to be that we forget about who we want to be, who the I is. And um and I think Gossim shows that you can still have the I while thinking about the we, by thinking about the greater collective, um, the greater community. And um and in fact, I think, you know, the the last thing that that sticks out to me is that for him, service is a very important mental health tool. And, you know, that is something that is shown to help our mental health is to be in service of others, to be in community with others. And so, you know, I really, really, really value um Gossim's time today and and the wisdom that he's imparted about his own experiences, his his family values, and um even how he um has decided to show up in uh for his family and for his community. Um so thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Guys and Jai. Um hope to see you again soon. Take care, everybody.