Angel B. Pérez

Welcome to the Leaders Are Human podcast, where we explore the inner work of leadership with some of the most inspiring leaders in the nonprofit education and academia sector. I wanted to create a space for conversation about the challenges of being a leader in today's society. The challenges have certainly never been greater, but also to give you the tools and the strategies that you can use to become a stronger leader, to manage yourself, and also go into deep reflection about not only why you are doing this work, why you serve the people that you serve, but also how you can make the greatest impact in the lives of the people that you serve and in your organizations. So I hope you'll enjoy learning from these incredible leaders ahead. I'm sitting here with Shirley Collado, president and CEO of College Track, and also President Emerita of Ithaca College and Trustee Emerita of Vanderbilt University. Shirley, you have so many titles. And I am so honored that you've taken the time to be here on the podcast with us. Welcome.

Shirley M. Collado

Thank you, Angel. It's good to see you. It's special to be here. I'm honored.

Angel B. Pérez

I'm excited about this conversation. I wonder if you start by telling us a little bit about your story. I have to tell you that before I met you and we became friends, I was already in awe of you. I followed your story through higher education because one, there's not many Latinas who grow up the way that you grew up and end up being the president of a college and also now president of a very large college access organization trying to democratize opportunity in this country. So I wonder if you could tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about how did you get here to this moment?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh man. Well, thank you for asking that question. I think personal journeys are so important, and my certainly has not been linear. But I would say just anchored in the story, regardless of where you enter in the life of Shirley Collado, it truly is about, and I'm sure you can relate to this, it's about the place that I grew up in and my family.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, in Sunset Park. My parents hail from the beautiful country of Dominican Republic. My dad drove a yellow taxi in New York. My mom worked in a garment factory making baby clothes and crib ware for children, and she worked alongside her sister and her mother. And I'm the eldest of three, ran a household and did all the things as a parentified child, and I can say that as a clinical psychologist. Gosh, I was doing that by the time I was nine, all the way up. And so, but I was raised in a community that was vibrant and amazing and connected. I was deeply loved, and I was around a lot of brave and amazing people. So even though I have these long titles and many firsts, I tell people all the time I'm really not that extraordinary. I grew up around a lot of gifted and talented and amazing, hardworking kids that had to do grown-up things very early. Yes. And those things have served me well and have also led some some big lessons in my adult life.

Angel B. Pérez

You know, it's interesting. So we definitely have a lot in common. I also grew up with a lot of first and parental child for sure. I think that most people would look at you and they would not assume that, for example, you took a bus from Brooklyn to Nashville, Tennessee for 26 hours to get to college. You want to tell that story? Because you know I've done my research on you, Shirley.

Shirley M. Collado

I know you have.

Angel B. Pérez

I Googled everything about you.

Shirley M. Collado

Well, that infamous bus ride, and so many people tell that story now, it's really powerful. As you know, I was in the inaugural group, the inaugural cohort of Posse Scholars when posse was an experiment before it became a national organization. Now the Posse Foundation, which I actually was able to run and scale and lead later in my career. But when I was a young girl, 17 going on, 18 years old, my bus ride was with four other kids, the then first posse at Vanderbilt University on a Greyhound bus from the New York City Port Authority with our five.

Angel B. Pérez

We spent a lot of time there.

Shirley M. Collado

With our five mothers. So the first posse is 10, five moms and five kids. Oh my gosh. And we went on a bus ride down to where Nashville was not the city it is today. Right. Vanderbilt was not the institution it is today, and we were part of an experiment. And I tell people all the time, I didn't know it at the time, but Angel, my entire career, everything that I have gotten up for every day is about that bus ride.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes.

Shirley M. Collado

Who gets on it in the first place? Who's there to support you? You kind of know where you're going, but you don't completely know. And what's so extraordinary about that ride is that our mothers were entrusting us to this institution. In a place that I had never traveled further south than the than Washington, D.C. when I went on a field trip in high school. I had never gone past that. And it was an entire world that was joyful, messy, hard, everything. And I remember that bus ride, and essentially, like, what are the conditions that these institutions have in place to really allow our young people to thrive? And my mom took a chance on that, my father, my entire family. I was not planning to ever leave New York City. It was not in the cards that I would go away to college. I knew I would go to college, but I had no idea that that trip down to the South would change, it would change everything.

Angel B. Pérez

And you know, I'm glad you brought this up because I think a lot of people who don't grow up in immigrant families, for example, don't understand this concept. You know, I too, I came here from Puerto Rico, and you know, my family was not excited about me going to upstate New York. And by the way, it was only four hours from home, but to them that might as well have been China. And the message that I received from my family, but also consequently, now that I've worked with thousands of students in the journey to college for immigrant families, they said, we have already migrated once. You are not migrating again. So for you to get on that bus to Vanderbilt, you were going to another country, and your family had already done that, right? You had settled in a place. And so it takes a lot of courage and a lot of faith for first-generation families and and immigrant families to send their kids away. It's a big ask.

Shirley M. Collado

Well said, well said. Well, you should know that the one thing I did not do in college was study abroad. And I told everyone that I already felt like I had landed in another country. And that my transition was and I was also worried about money. I didn't know what all my options were completely. Um, but it was a big deal. And my father actually, even with the scholarship, even with Posse, he said no three times. Would not allow it. And not only was I the eldest child, I was the only girl growing up in a very traditional Dominican family. And my family also financially depended on me. I was taking, you know, I was providing child care. I was making day-to-day decisions that allowed my parents to work the way that they did in this country. So and my brothers to be safe and cared for and all the things.

Angel B. Pérez

Did you work after school?

Shirley M. Collado

I did work after school.

Angel B. Pérez

What was your...

Shirley M. Collado

I've been working since I was eleven.

Angel B. Pérez

I thought I had you at 13.

Shirley M. Collado

11.

Angel B. Pérez

I started at 13.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes. And so at 11, I worked. You will know this. You relate to this as well, you know, at a local bodega, a grocery store where I could help. And I was working completely off the books. But all through high school, I actually worked at a local pharmacy. And I stocked shelves. I ran the cashier. I did a whole bunch of stuff to support the manager, but I was also taking care of my brothers, doing extracurriculars, like doing all the things. And you said something earlier that's so important. You know, at College Track, we know that we have to go on a family journey.

Angel B. Pérez

That's right.

Shirley M. Collado

Not just the individual student journey. And so all the bells and whistles that young people with legacies of education and resources in their families get, we socially engineer and wrap around an incredible student with a lot of promise. But we know that the student is actually making those decisions and preparing all through high school and into college with an entire family and community around them. And so they go on the journey too. And they need to be empowered and educated around the decisions that they're able to make or feel like they're able to make for their children.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah, when I was a dean of admission, I would always tell the community we're recruiting the entire family. We're not just recruiting the one student, right?

Shirley M. Collado

That's right.

Angel B. Pérez

Grandma has to feel as comfortable as the child who is on the journey. So I love hearing your story because it is very obvious to me I can connect the dots as to why you have chosen the career journey that you have chosen. I wonder how your own life story has led you to make the decisions around becoming a college president, for example, or entering academia. Most people probably don't know that you started as a psychotherapist, I believe. So you've also made some career changes and now you're running this large, impactful nonprofit. How does your own story impact your own value system and then also how you've chosen a career?

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, yes. Well, you know, when I have the opportunity to talk with students, with young people, with other Latinas, right, that when they see me they're they're in awe or wondering like how did that happen? And you know, you and I are both huge fans of of Dr. Mildred García. That's right. Millie García, the current chancellor of the Cal State University system. And I remember early in my career when I saw Millie, I thought I had seen a unicorn.

Angel B. Pérez

You and I.

Shirley M. Collado

Like, I was in disbelief.

Angel B. Pérez

She was another one that I followed. After you, of course, Shirley. I remember following your story.

Shirley M. Collado

Completely

Angel B. Pérez

B ecause they're not a lot, there's not a lot of Latina leaders out there in higher education.

Shirley M. Collado

No, and and with that comes, you know, a great burden of what you represent. And so I say this in that when I talk with students, you know, I tell them clearly this was not a linear path. I was not planning on getting a PhD and pursuing clinical psychology. I was not planning on staying in the South for as long as I did after my growth spurt at Vanderbilt. I didn't know that I was going to eventually connect the dots as a social scientist who cared deeply about race and gender and trauma, and how that would connect to systems and primarily systems and education and health care. I wanted to do kind of big work around that, but I didn't know that or how I was going to do it. And that bus ride, in the moment that I took that ride down with my mom, I had no idea that I would reflect on that moment for the rest of my life when I was making career choices about what I was choosing to do. What I can tell you is my campus experience as an undergrad, my graduate experience at Duke, the crazy call, the gift that I got when Debbie Bial, the founder of Posse, called me and asked me if I would put my name in the hat for a national position, for the first ever kind of big position that would help grow the Posse Foundation. That was not on the linear path. Those were things that entered as I was learning and growing. Um, but what was fundamental to me is that I wanted to change the environments that young people live in and get educated in. And I wanted people to see us clearly for all of our value, our promise, and our worth. And many people saw those things in me and saw me clearly, even when I didn't even understand myself.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

And so I stepped into things that were often unlikely, sometimes unpopular. Took risk s in my career when I didn't decide to do the thing in that way.

Angel B. Pérez

The obvious next thing, right?

Shirley M. Collado

Yeah, and so I've resisted several boxes, even though I think in my career, many people have tried to put me in boxes. And it's been a dynamic, a dynamic journey for sure.

Angel B. Pérez

I love this story because I'm really on a personal mission to try to get as many people as possible, whether it's NACAC members, students, anyone who will listen, to really connect the dots between their personal stories, to their own purpose and mission in life, to what they do for a living and how they serve others. I think so many, and you probably hear this from so many of your students at College Track, you serve thousands of students across the country. I don't know what my purpose is, I don't know what I'm gonna do for a living. And you don't need to know that at 18. Many of us don't, but I think as you go through your life, if you spend much more time in silence and reflection and you reflect back to those moments, you know. I had several. I had a high school counselor who tapped me on the shoulder, one of 700 kids in her caseload. She said, young man, have you ever thought about going to college? And I was like, I don't know. I only see people on the Cosby Show that go to college. I had no framework or reference for people that went to college, not in my neighborhood, not in my family, right? That moment, whoo, like fundamentally changed my life.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

And I do this work because I knew that I was an anomaly, and I don't want that to be the case for millions of students across the country, right? So if more of us sat with those whispers and in reflection, I think we would really be on this like movement to change the world in our own unique way.

Shirley M. Collado

Well, you know that you have been an incredible mentor to me around that because you know, think about it, I had huge responsibilities on me as a child.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

And a lot of young first gen children of immigrants, and even if we think about young people in rural parts of the country from all walks of life that are getting up early in the morning to take care of a household, to take care of their siblings, to help their parents manage really, really challenging realities.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

Right. And so you don't really get to dabble in reflection, in play, in failure, in taking chances. The stakes are always so high. I remember, you know, just every year, no matter how loved I was, and I was in a community that was so vibrant and rich, even though most people would say I grew up in a low-income, at-risk, depleted community. That is not how I felt. That's not how my parents made me feel. Right. But the bottom line is that in so many ways, I didn't have any room to make mistakes. And that has allowed me in my career in many ways to be very successful and do a lot of things.

Angel B. Pérez

And it comes at a cost.

Shirley M. Collado

It comes at a cost. And so that is the thing. And so you have reminded me of listening to that inner voice, of slowing down. In my adult life life now, I try to focus more on play and joy. It is not what I was able to do as a kid.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

And so, and as a psychologist, I understand that intellectually, but as I was living through my career and doing all the things, especially when I was doing things that people expected of me, when I was the first one and often the only one. I'm really serious about actually just living into my joy and what I deeply care about now, what's purposeful. And all of it has been purposeful and amazing. And I didn't always balance the the the playfulness, the taking chances, the, you know, just being human.

Angel B. Pérez

Being human, which by the way is the title of this podcast.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay, I want to stick with this thread because you know I am very passionate about this. So, you know that I wrote a book, which I quoted you in.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, you did.

Angel B. Pérez

But before I share the quote that you so graciously shared, and thank you for blurbing the book, by the way.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, I was honored to do it.

Angel B. Pérez

I do want to stick to this theme of leaders, burnout, how we care for ourselves. We are living through some really tough times. I mean, leadership has never been easy, but I think I call it warrior work now. If you are stepping into the ring right now as a leader, regardless of what sector you are in, it is warrior work. The expectations have never been higher, and the public scrutiny is also pretty fierce. So I want to read this quote to you. It's by David Chang, restaurateur. He wrote a memoir, and I actually read his memoir while I was going through my own very serious burnout episode, which I was pretty public about. Um, I think it was in 2021. I wonder how you might respond or if any of this quote resonates. Recovering alcoholics talk about needing to hit rock bottom before they're able to climb out. The paradox for the workaholic is that rock bottom is the top of whatever profession they are in. Does that resonate in any way?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh, completely. Completely. And and by the way, I'm so glad, I think it's a blessing to so many of us that you chose to be public about your burnout. And not only that, NACAC doing a major conference and really, really affirming the theme of understanding that the people who do this work in service of students and their families and the communities that they live and the institutions that they serve. Um, it all comes at a real cost when we're not careful. And especially when we can't control all the external forces against us.

Angel B. Pérez

How are you taking care of yourself these days? Or I might even evolve that question, what are the hard lessons you've learned around self-care? I call some of it self-management as well, because it's not just about caring for ourselves, but it's about how we manage our lives. I wonder what lessons you've learned over time.

Shirley M. Collado

Well, you know, I think that one of the things that happens when you are someone who people believe represents so much for so many. And when you're in a public world role, you know, that I was the, you know, first woman of color to be VP and Dean of the College at Middlebury in close to 200 years. I'm the first Dominican American to ever lead a public or private four-year college or university in the history of American higher education. Like, that's crazy.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

You know? I served on a board at Vanderbilt where for 10 years I was, you know, the first Latinx individual to be on the board and the first woman of color to serve as officer of the board. I am the first woman of color to be trustee emerita at Vanderbilt University. Like we just can kind of go on. First Posse, first PhD in Posse, like all the things. And all that, as great as it sounds, carries the weight of, and it has many incredible joys and privileges to it, but it carries the weight of people assuming that you got it all together, that you are a Shero, that you can walk on water, that you can do everything. And for women of color in particular, I think there's so much temptation to dehumanize us.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

Because we can do anything. You know? And we even position it as like potential magic.

Angel B. Pérez

Except you're human.

Shirley M. Collado

That's right. That's right. And so I have learned, especially when I've gotten when I've had to get up and put one foot in front of the other, when things are really hard, when I'm carrying something super heavy, or when I am publicly the target of something hard and deeply personal. You really, really get a wake-up call on what do you kind of need to do to take care of all of this so that you can show up not only to do an excellent job, but really to sustain your values as a leader and and take care of the people around you who make the work possible.

Angel B. Pérez

Do you have any advice on actual practices that you might use? I know there's a lot of people that are listening or watching today who are in that seat. They're in the hot seat at whatever organization they're in and they're trying to figure out how do I show up and also take care of myself given all of the pressure I am under.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes. So yes, I have advice about that. And I think also because I've gotten older and more clear about what I'm willing to compromise and what I'm not, I've gotten more comfortable saying what I need out loud, even if it's not a reflection. Historically, I haven't seen it as a reflection of strength. So, and you know this, about a year ago I went through a massive health scare. I went in for a routine, what was supposed to be a minimally invasive lower back procedure. And I thought it's winter break, I'm gonna squeeze it in. Right as everybody's away for their holidays.

Angel B. Pérez

As leaders do. They just squeeze in surgery.

Shirley M. Collado

We're gonna close the office and I'm gonna go do this thing, and I'll be fine in four weeks, and I'll be back right after MLK Day, and I'll be good to go. Well, everything that I've planned, and this was something that I thought long and hard about doing. I had resisted it for a while, had done a lot of things to take care of myself when I was president of Ithaca and all the years before that, and all my years in public and private higher ed. But I needed, it was time for me to do this. And the two things that could go wrong happened to me. I got a spinal leak, and I became severely septic.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

I was hospitalized, and that leave extended out for a long time. And I was facing a physical reality of not being able to actually move forward. And I also was facing in a very rather public way, even though I had tremendous support for my board and my team, I had to tell the organization I wasn't okay.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

I had to ask my team to step in in extraordinary ways. I had to completely focus on Shirley. And my husband Van needed me to really focus on Shirley.

Angel B. Pérez

Right.

Shirley M. Collado

And so it was Angel, super uncomfortable to admit that reality.

Angel B. Pérez

That might have been harder than the surgery, I don't know. I mean, to make that decision and to be vulnerable.

Shirley M. Collado

To be vulnerable.

Angel B. Pérez

To say the leader needs help.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes. And to be very clear, and I'm sharing this with you on a podcast that will be on YouTube, you know. This was, I mean, I was fighting for my life for weeks. Not only was this, uh, my body has performed a miracle, and I had an incredible partner who became my health warrior, and an incredible doctor who took a care of me, I have an amazing family, all the things. But the reality was when I got home after surviving all of that, and acute rehab for the pain, I really, really just looked at my entire life and existence in a completely different way. And the gift of having something awful like that happen to you, because I was already managing pain and all the things, which is hence why I did the surgery. The level of awareness that I have around my body and when I'm not okay, and what I need to prioritize and what I need to do to take care of myself is significantly heightened. The women in my family are warriors, and our bodies are made to last, and we do what needs to be done. Like you get up and you just push through, and my whole career I have pushed through. And this time, my body said, mm-mm. No.

Angel B. Pérez

You know, I'm a believer, and you and I have had this conversation, I think we might have had it in your over your kitchen table, that the universe gives you signs. And I'm also a believer that the lessons that life is trying to teach you, you will go through things over and over and over again until you get it. And I wonder if this was life's way of saying, Shirley, you have lived your life this way.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

Since you can remember, since you were 11 years old.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

Maybe it's time to do it a little bit differently.

Shirley M. Collado

Completely.

Angel B. Pérez

And did you accept that though? Have you have you sort of internalized this?

Shirley M. Collado

I have. I have, and I consider it a blessing. And for folks listening in, I have to say, you know, even though my life is very public and I do many things, my health, my family, the things around my internal world are very private. And so to even talk with you out loud about this, I'm saying this because I'm hoping that the people who are listening can really pick up on what it means to be vulnerable in leadership is so powerful.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes.

Shirley M. Collado

And I can tell you, I think that my team, I know that my team was not only honored to serve and lead on my behalf, and they did not miss a beat. Okay. I think that it was a real gift to them that as I was able to say, I need your help. I'm not gonna be myself for a while, and these are the things that I need to protect, and I need your help, helping me protect in order for us to carry this organization forward. And I want to model for you what it means to show up for yourself, because by me doing that, I'm giving them permission to do that. And it's been a it's been a remarkable thing. But you are right, at the risk of sounding like a psychologist, what was happening my back, I probably was born with the condition. And it was literally, right, the procedure was to create space for my nervous system to breathe and flow. And I was compressed, right?

Angel B. Pérez

I mean, think about the symbolism.

Shirley M. Collado

So the whole idea of like compression versus expansion, openness and breath. And even though my situation and my wish to really create space, I faced, you know, a near-death experience. I faced pain. I faced helplessness, you know, not being able to take care of myself. And at the other side of this, I am like, I am so strong and healthy right now. It is amazing. And I've said to myself, my body told me where I needed to be, and I'm gonna honor it because it's given me a gift. And so, how do you do that and run like a big organization and do all the things that I do and be a public servant, right? Do the things. I'm no good if I'm not actually in tune with what's really happening inside. So that's the wisdom and the gift and the blessing that I take from all of this.

Angel B. Pérez

I love that you talk about your your spine needing expansion and space, but really your life needed expansion and space.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

Like what a beautiful sort of synergy in the spirit of in the end, it's a gift if you're able to receive it. Well, thank you for sharing that, because I know it's deeply personal and a tough moment in your life, but can imagine the many, many people you will inspire to tell their own stories, but also to be okay and to ask. I think as leaders, we just don't ask enough for what it is that we need. And I think that needs to change in our culture.

Shirley M. Collado

Well, and at the risk of embarrassing you, we also need people around us that ask us about how we're really doing.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

And, you know, you didn't know everything that was going on. You finally heard, and you called me and you checked in on me. And not only that, but you came to actually physically lay eyes on me at my home.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes, I went to your house. By the way, she did know in advance that I was coming. This was not a surprise visit.

Shirley M. Collado

He did tell me, he did tell me. But it was, I remember even with you, even how close I feel to you as a friend and colleague, I was allowing you to come into this space that I was at the time still struggling with.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

And really kind of thinking about how am I gonna return? How am I gonna come back to this? This isn't how people are used to seeing me, right? And it was so powerful for you to do that because I needed it in the moment to really think about then now, okay, you know, how do I move from this? And I've moved forward from some pretty hard things. And this body thing was probably by far one of the one of the hardest.

Angel B. Pérez

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I think it's this notion of leaders always feel the need to be perfect, and we're the ones who have to have all the answers, and we need to show up a certain way. You know, related to this, I wonder what you think about imposter syndrome. And I ask that because I talk to thousands of higher education, secondary, nonprofit leaders around the country. And then when you really sit down and get to the bottom of things, everybody feels this sense of imposter syndrome. Like everybody else knows something that I don't know. And we see this in college students, but I think what most people don't realize is it can follow you for the rest of your life.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

And as someone who was the first of so many, how have you thought about imposter syndrome, experienced it, or maybe evolved with it?

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, it has evolved. I'm so glad that you raised this issue. It is real, and I think when you're an impressive person, you're a trailblazer, you're all the things, people just think you arrive and you know what's going on and you know what to do. And I would say, gosh, I have so many moments of really wondering, do I belong and am I gonna make it? And I would have to say that an essential part for me has always been having some anchor mentors, some people in my orbit who I've been able to just call, you know, on the red phone to say, am I crazy? Can you help me out with this? I'm about to go into this meeting, here's what I'm thinking. Can I practice with you?

Angel B. Pérez

Nice.

Shirley M. Collado

I have had in every role, even up until now, where I have people that I deeply count on that I can trust and that I know they will tell me what's good for me, even when I don't want to hear it. To really be myself and test something out. And not to fake it till I make it. Not to perform, but to truly be me. And so in my core values around my family, I've always seen the value in being myself. People have often said, oh, what you see is what you get with Shirley. But I didn't know that early in my career. I was just showing up and really trying to do the best that I could. And you know, when you're translating for your parents, when you're balancing a checkbook, you know, before you're in middle school, you're doing all these things, you know how to read culture. I tell people all the time, first-gen students have these superpowers, you know. We know about group dynamics, there's high emotional intelligence, you're adaptive under stress. And so all those skills came to life when I felt imposter syndrome. I had the coping responses that allowed me to be me. And I do have to say, I've worked with some extraordinary leaders who also got me out of my own way. And some of those leaders were not my background, were not my gender, were people who came from completely different walks of life, but they saw me clearly and put me in the seat and said, go to it. And they were willing to demystify all the rules of engagement, all the code of conduct that I didn't know because I didn't have proximity to it. And so I felt like I could ask them the questions that people were afraid to ask. And that has been a lesson for me. So I'm now in my 50s, now in my second major presidency and CEO cy. I lean into the texture and beauty of my identity. I don't check my identity at the door. And at this point in my life and career, I also don't want to be in an organization or serve a mission that is not deeply rooted in who I am. And that's an amazing place to be in at this point in my life.

Angel B. Pérez

You know, I love this thread because there's a couple things that I have always felt very strongly about. And you just mentioned your mentors and your leaders. I tell young people when they ask me about what's the next job I should take, what should I do next, I always say follow good leadership. You know, I too have just been so fortunate in having these incredible mentors. But I still remember, for example, and I'm gonna give her a shout out, I was a dean at the Claremont Colleges, and Claremont Colleges is a great place to work.

Shirley M. Collado

Amazing.

Angel B. Pérez

Most people do not leave there. And I got a call.

Shirley M. Collado

Or the weather. We definitely. I'm learning that.

Angel B. Pérez

Southern California weather. I had a good life there, but I had the opportunity to go work for Joanne Berger Sweeney, who at the time became the new president of Trinity College, first African American woman, first neuroscientist. I did all this research on her, and I just thought I could learn so much from her.

Shirley M. Collado

You made a wise decision.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes, but at the time people thought I was nuts. Like you, when you made these decisions, like going to Hartford, Connecticut, which I love by the way. Loved my time in Hartford. But my life even now, I don't think I'd be sitting here with you doing this if I had not followed good leadership and got a great mentorship. So that's number one in terms of advice I would give to people listening. The second piece is is advice that you gave, and it's actually in my book. Part of the advice that you give around how to choose where you work, and you were talking about institutions of higher education, but I think your advice is valuable to any organization, is you have to love the institution. So if you're gonna take on a leadership role, whether it's in a nonprofit civic organization, an institution, high school, you have to love it. What do you mean by that?

Shirley M. Collado

Yeah, and I would take it further, you have to really be in love. And so part of that, I'm so glad that you're raising this. Part of that has so much to do with if you truly are going to be a servant leader, if you're going to be in a public role and do really hard things that are often all-consuming, where you have no cover. Your life is the institution, the institution is your life. I believe in, I really, and this won't be popular to say this, but I do not believe in work-life balance.

Angel B. Pérez

I call it work-life integration.

Shirley M. Collado

Completely. Completely. It is true integration.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

So looking for an organization, a university, a college, an organization, a nonprofit, wherever you work, where you really can not only truly be yourself, but live into the promise of that place and yourself at the same time is a wonderful thing. When you're getting up and doing a really hard job, I say to folks, you want to be in love with that place even when it's not loving you back.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes. Say it again for the people in the back.

Shirley M. Collado

We want to be, yes, in love with a place even when it doesn't love you back. And, you know, if you think about a courtship, a relationship, unconditional love, all the things. And some people don't think jobs should be that. But the way that I have lived my life in terms of my career and what I do and get up for every day, and that's always been with students at the center. If I'm going to get up and do something that's hard and thankless and often in the face of public scrutiny, and now in our sector, now more than ever.

Angel B. Pérez

Public attacks.

Shirley M. Collado

I really want to know when I wake up clearly who am I serving? Does this mission speak to my core? And then I can do anything in the face of really hard headwinds. So that is big for me. And boy, Joanne, by the way, we share our love for her. She's been a remarkable mentor. And, you know, leaders like Joanne, they take us to some unlikely places.

Angel B. Pérez

Yes.

Shirley M. Collado

You know, I've been in rural Vermont. I traveled across the country.

Angel B. Pérez

Not a lot of Dominicans in rural Vermont.

Shirley M. Collado

That's right, in upstate New York. I followed great leaders.

Angel B. Pérez

Follow great leaders.

Shirley M. Collado

And it's worked. It's worked.

Angel B. Pérez

Do you have any other advice if there's some younger professionals listening in, which I'm sure there are, about how to think about their career, make decisions around career?

Shirley M. Collado

Well, you said something earlier about like this isn't linear. We don't have it figured out. And it sounds very simplistic to say, especially now where we're in this kind of doom and gloom reality of there won't be any jobs, AI will take over, all these things, higher ed, nobody wants that anymore. You know, the scrutiny that we're under, but it it really boils down to think about what you're most curious and passionate about. Follow great leaders. Develop your circle of mentors. And for me, it has always been resist being put in a box. No one would have advised me that I could go from leading a national nonprofit in education into a cabinet position at a premier liberal arts college. No one said it was a good idea for me to step off of my academic track and go pay it forward to the organization that literally changed my life as a young girl. No one thought that it was, you know, they were wondering like, why would you go from Middlebury to Rutgers University, Newark?

Angel B. Pérez

Right.

Shirley M. Collado

And then I led a private, comprehensive, enrollment-dependent institution in my home state where I'm from, during one of the most challenging moments in higher ed. And we're facing another season of that. So it's been to my advantage to actually not go with the flow and take some chances, and it is a mixture of like it's a leap of faith. It's ultimately you get advice, you do your research, you talk with your mentors, and in the end, at the end of the day, it's your heart and your soul, your gut that's gonna tell you. And it's a little bit of like, I'm gonna take that leap of faith.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

I'm gonna do it.

Angel B. Pérez

Shirley, I could talk to you all day, but I want to do a lightning round at the end because I want people to know who like the real fun Shirley is. Not that this isn't a lot of fun. I can geek out with you about leadership all day. But before I ask that, are you, have you read anything recently, books, podcasts, any resources you might share with the audience that are inspiring you these days?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh my goodness. Well, you know, I'm a little biased here. One of my favorite authors is Julia Alvarez, who happens to be Dominican.

Angel B. Pérez

That's right.

Shirley M. Collado

Who happens to be a Middlebury alum.

Angel B. Pérez

She's amazing.

Shirley M. Collado

She's amazing, and anything by her. She's written poetry, she does fiction, she's done nonfiction, she's done children's books, but in particular, her poetry just really resonates with me. And I often go back to "How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accents."

Angel B. Pérez

That's a book you read over and over again. Especially if you grew up the way we did.

Shirley M. Collado

Over and over again. But I love the versatility of who she is as a writer. And boy, is it extraordinary to see your experience on a page.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, so I'm gonna do a fun lightning round to get to know what you do a little bit for fun.

Shirley M. Collado

Okay.

Angel B. Pérez

Because leaders do have fun, folks. We do have fun. So, what's your favorite Netflix binge?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh my goodness. Netflix in particular?

Angel B. Pérez

No, it could be Hulu, whatever you're streaming these days.

Shirley M. Collado

Well, right now I am obsessed with The Pitt.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay. I need to get into it.

Shirley M. Collado

I don't know if you have followed.

Angel B. Pérez

Everyone's talking about it.

Shirley M. Collado

It is brilliant. Just brilliant.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay.

Shirley M. Collado

An entire season is one full day in the ER. Every episode is one hour in a day.

Angel B. Pérez

In an ER.

Shirley M. Collado

And you at the end of it cannot believe that they've had just a day of what has happened.

Angel B. Pérez

Which is how doctors probably feel.

Shirley M. Collado

But I love The Pitt. I love The Pitt. I love Will Trent.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay.

Shirley M. Collado

If you haven't seen that, that's on Hulu.

Angel B. Pérez

Yeah.

Shirley M. Collado

Tons of fun.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay. All right. Something most people wouldn't know about you.

Shirley M. Collado

Oh my goodness. That's a good one.

Angel B. Pérez

What would we be surprised to know?

Shirley M. Collado

I did musical theater all through middle school, high school, and college. And I did a little bit of it after college. I love to perform, I love to dance, and musical theater is by far one of my favorite, favorite avenues for the arts. And I am an extrovert for sure, but now I often am refueling in solitude.

Angel B. Pérez

Me too. Yeah, we have that in common. I think part of it is these jobs, the which we love, but we are surrounded by people all of the time. You know, I say to my friends and family, I'm surrounded by thousands of people all the time.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

And I love it, but I now need refuel time in ways that I never needed before.

Shirley M. Collado

I love my solitude.

Angel B. Pérez

Sit in silence. I go for solo walks.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, same.

Angel B. Pérez

Yoga by myself, you know, whatever.

Shirley M. Collado

Same.

Angel B. Pérez

These days I don't even want to go to group exercise classes because it's around people.

Shirley M. Collado

Oh, yeah.

Angel B. Pérez

I'm just gonna solo exercise.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes, no, the solitude thing is new. You know, I grew up in a two-bedroom apartment surrounded by people all the time. And I'm happily married to a very introverted, amazing artist.

Angel B. Pérez

So he appreciates silence too, right?

Shirley M. Collado

He appreciates silence. It's good.

Angel B. Pérez

I love it. Both you and I travel a lot. Do you have a travel hack or trick that you would recommend for all of our listeners?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh, goodness. I do everything. I mean, I know our enrollment and admissions folks are pros at this, but I do everything that I can to pack one carry-on bag.

Angel B. Pérez

Don't check a bag.

Shirley M. Collado

I am a master packer and I can do all things. I can get it in there and figure things out. And then I also do, and this is around wellness, everywhere that I travel, I find a Pilates studio or a place where I can actually go and do my morning ritual, which we didn't get to earlier, but I have a morning practice of taking care of my body. And I do that while I'm on the road. So you can figure it out.

Angel B. Pérez

Yep.

Shirley M. Collado

And if you're in a place where you can't get to things, there are things you can travel with, like bands and lightweights, and so there's certain things that I take in my bag in that one carry-on that don't allow me to have an excuse to not be in movement, to not get good sleep, to do the things that I need to do to show up.

Angel B. Pérez

Okay, and finally, what's the best leadership advice you've ever received?

Shirley M. Collado

Oh gosh. I've had some great ones, but I would say one of them, the one of the best pieces of advice actually came from Millie García. And she said it was at a moment when I was at the crossroads of making a big decision around my career, and I was weighing all of the decisions, and she said, anytime you have to make a really, really important decision, talk to three mentors that are very different from one another, who you really respect and are gonna tell you the truth. And they're gonna tell you exactly what you need to hear, even if you don't want to hear it. And she said, and you go and you get your mixture of feedback, and then you go and do like the most relaxing thing that you enjoy doing that's good for you. Could be a walk, it could be a hot bath, it could be whatever it is to just be in that solitude space. She said, and then you just have to listen to your heart and make your decision and press forward and do not look back.

Angel B. Pérez

I love that.

Shirley M. Collado

So she was like, you know, use this very kind of cognitive, really, you know, interesting thing around mentorship, and then at the end of the day, see you. You know that answer. And it is about that kind of well-informed leap of faith, which gets to, you know, that question about what advice would I give people? And so we can listen, surround yourself with truth tellers that deeply care for you, and then bet on yourself.

Angel B. Pérez

And I would say if you bet on yourself, you can't ever go wrong.

Shirley M. Collado

Yes.

Angel B. Pérez

Dr. Shirley Collado, it is such a joy to have you here, and you are a gift not only in my life, but to the world. Thank you for all you're doing and all the goodness you're putting out there.

Shirley M. Collado

Thank you, Angel. Thanks for creating this space. So beautiful.

Angel B. Pérez

Thank you for joining us today. The Leaders Are Human Podcast is brought to you by NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling, where I have the honor of serving as CEO. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you will like, share, and subscribe, and make sure that you share with others. Our goal is to create a coalition of healthy leaders around the world.