Purpose, Mindset, Contemplation, and Integrity: The Tools of Human Leadership

How do you navigate life’s hardest moments without losing your sense of purpose—or yourself?

In the first episode of Leaders Are Human, I sit down with Dan Porterfield, president of the Aspen Institute and a leader I’ve long admired. Dan reflects on his childhood, his journey through public education to a life-changing Jesuit experience, and the values that shaped his path.

What emerges is a powerful story of transformation: from simply getting through life to living with intention and service to others.

We explore how Dan learned to move through intensity with integrity—reframing challenges, cultivating the right mindset, and staying grounded in purpose. He also shares practical lessons from his work, including the five mindsets that have guided his leadership and can help all of us face extraordinary challenges with clarity and courage.

This conversation sets the foundation for the series: an honest look at leadership not as perfection, but as a deeply human endeavor.

Show Note:
In this episode, Dan Porterfield highlights five key mindsets for growth from his book, Mindset Matters: discovery, creativity, collaboration, mentorship, and striving. These mindsets reflect a belief in continuous learning, contributing meaningfully, working with others, lifting others up, and pushing yourself forward with purpose. 

Transcript

Leaders are Human Podcast
Episode Title: Purpose, Mindset, Contemplation, and Integrity: The Tools of Human Leadership

Angel B. Pérez: Welcome to the Leaders Are Human Podcast, where we explore the inner work of leadership with some of the most inspiring leaders in the nonprofit education and academia sector. I wanted to create a space for conversation about the challenges of being a leader in today's society. The challenges have certainly never been greater, but also to give you.

The tools and the strategies that you can use to become a stronger leader, to manage yourself, and also go into deep reflection about not only why are you doing this work, why you serve the people that you serve, but also how you can make the greatest impact in the lives of the people that you serve and in your organizations.

So I hope you'll enjoy learning from these incredible leaders ahead. I'm with Dan Porterfield, the president and CEO of the Aspen Institute, and also the chair of the board for Teach for America. Actually, Dan has many titles. He's also a trustee at Colorado College, and he has been a former college president and has served in many, many leadership roles in different organizations.

So Dan, I couldn't be more excited to have you as the first guest in the Leaders Are Human Podcast. Welcome. 

Dan Porterfield: Well, thank you, Angel. It's great to be here. I consider this the hottest seat on the podcast. 

Angel B. Pérez: This is the hottest seat on the podcast. Welcome. Welcome. Yeah. Well, I'm so excited about having this conversation.

You really were the first person I thought of when we decided to create a podcast to highlight leaders. To give those in our community, nonprofit, government, academia, a little bit of hope, and also some tactics around how they manage themselves today, but also how they implement some leadership strategies into their work.

So the way I want to start, because you've had such a fascinating life and career I think one of the big misconceptions about leaders, people often see leaders and you know, they'll see you on a podcast or they'll see you on television. They have no idea that you have this rich, complex history that you sort of started with, and our lives certainly aren't perfect.

So I'm wondering what would you share around where you grew up, how you grew up, and how it's led to your leadership positions? 

Dan Porterfield: Well, uh, thank you Angel. So I grew up in Baltimore City and the height of the civil rights movement. And my, I was raised by a single mother her name was Ann Butler. And my dad was a playwright and public school teacher in Baltimore and his plays were all sixties and 70 era howls of protest. Wow. He was like a street playwright. He had his own theater. It was called Corner Theater. And his plays were all about racism, Vietnam War, and the abandonment of humanity by God. 

Angel B. Pérez: Mm, 

Dan Porterfield: Very angry, very in your face type plays.

My mom married him very young. She had grown up in foster care. Her mother was an alcoholic and had left her with a family outside of Boston. And then her mother reunited with her and brought her to Baltimore for high school. And uh, my mom and my dad were dating and my grandmother's then husband, who was a magician in the circus, didn't like my dad. 

Angel B. Pérez: A magician in the circus? 

Dan Porterfield: Yes. He would sometimes. 

Angel B. Pérez: That's extraordinary. 

Dan Porterfield: Saw my mother in half. And he didn't like my dad, and he told my mom, break up with that boyfriend or get out the house. And so she left the house and got married very young and that led to me. And so she and her mother were reconciled a second time.

A few years later, but, um, but I, I sometimes say it was an act of magic that brought me and my sister Kate, literally into the world. They were married young. My dad was writing these plays and more than plays, he was producing them. He was embodying this theater, corner theater. And when they, when it was just too hard for them to stay together.

Around 1968, I was about six or seven, they divorced. My mom, as a single mom, went to college at night and taught school during the day. She went to Towson, then, I think it was called Towson State Teachers College then, and she earned her degree in summers and nights, was an excellent student and ended up continuing to work in the day, taking care of me and my sister while going and getting her master's degree and then her doctorate from the University of Maryland in history.

She ultimately became the editor of the Journal of Western History at Utah State University and a trustee, professor. Um, and again, 

Angel B. Pérez: So you come from an academic background. 

Dan Porterfield: I do. 

Angel B. Pérez: But a very circuitous background 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. I come from a public education background, I would say, because my dad was a public school teacher.

My mom was educated at public schools, and I went to public schools in Baltimore. As they were desegregating in the sixties, and I was in going into seventh grade when, around August 25th or something, my single mom got a letter from the Baltimore City schools saying, your son's going on shifts because our school's going to have to, use that method. We don't have enough teachers to deal with all that, enough money to run a full day school. 

Angel B. Pérez: What does that mean to go on shifts? 

Dan Porterfield: It meant I would've either gone in the morning or the afternoon. And I can't remember which one, but she was, you know, a single mom. What's she going to do with her seventh-grade boy around the house alone because she's at work? So she drove all over Baltimore to find a private school that would take me. And she found one. It was St. Paul's School for boys in Baltimore County. Pretty preppy school back then. And so I was like one of the city kids in this school. Taking a couple buses out there and having that experience that Tony Jack has written about so beautifully about scholarship students in middle schools or high schools, and how that experience of learning and cultural adjustment immersion can be both complex but also empowered.

Angel B. Pérez: Tony Jack, the professor who actually joined us recently. Yes. And he wrote the book, The Privileged Poor. So check it out. And it's wonderful that we actually have scholars who are actually writing about this now because the narrative has really shifted. I too was first generation to college, low income, went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York.

And at the time, many of us who were of that background felt like we were approaching the institution through a deficit model.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. Like we were missing something. We needed to be caught up as opposed to really thinking about the strengths that we brought to those institutions. 

Dan Porterfield: That's a big change that we as a society have been able to emphasize in part, as you say, because of that early wave of first gen college goers then were able to share the experience in some cases, study it like Tony, and then make it possible for you or me to have a vocabulary to use that we wouldn't have had when we were students. 

Angel B. Pérez: I mean, I'll tell you at my last institution, I was vice president for enrollment and student success at Trinity College in Connecticut, and I did have a moment one day when during first year orientation a group of probably 50 students came out of a residence hall and they had I am first Gen T-shirts on. And it was so beautiful and powerful and I also thought. My goodness. Has the world changed? 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. 

Angel B. Pérez: Because when I went to college, I would've never said I am a first-generation low-income student.

That is something you hid. That's not something you shouted from the rooftops with pride. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah, that's right. And I taught at Georgetown University from 1997 until 2011, and then at Franklin and Marshall for seven years. And I saw that change over those 20 years. I also would say I think a lot about going to St. Paul's school for boys that first month because it was so hard. And I walked in there in platform shoes, bow ties, bright red disco shirts, and white belts. And 

Angel B. Pérez: I want some photos. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah, we've got. 

Angel B. Pérez: We might want to post some photos later. 

Dan Porterfield: We've got 'em. And so it, I was, you know, the, the kid from another planet.

And that was, you know, kind of like an identity that, believe it or not, I embraced. And so the platform heals got bigger every year. I was at St. Paul's School. 

Angel B. Pérez: Oh, I love that. So Dan, I'm curious, how has your life story helped you make decisions around your career? For those that don't know you were in academia, you were a professor, then you became an administrator.

You became the president of Franklin Marshall College in Pennsylvania. Then you moved into this role at Aspen, and you will shortly, in a few months, be moving into the presidency of the Jack Ken Cook Foundation, which is a scholarship organization for students here in the United States. So you've had this incredible career.

But now that I know a little bit more about your backstory, my guess is there was an incredible influence and pull in this direction. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. I always wanted to make a difference, to contribute and to help other people. Growing up, I certainly was aware of all sorts of people, neighbors, teachers, coaches.

That were a help to me, my mom, my sister, when we were, you know, when we were a small single parent family. Also functioning public institutions. Towson College was great. That indirectly helped me very much because they helped my mom. The Baltimore Public School is less great because they, you know, they stuck a single mom with the problem.

How are you going to deal with your child not being able to go to school all day? So I did get exposed early to what sort of what system success and system failure looked like. 

Angel B. Pérez: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Porterfield: That was one thing. Second thing is that I saw integration, racial integration firsthand on our teams in Northwood Baseball League, where I played at my school, Northwood Elementary School.

And in our neighborhood, which was in the Northwood neighborhood of Baltimore. And the more difficult of the three was the neighborhood. 

Angel B. Pérez: Hmm. 

Dan Porterfield: When the first black family moved in roughly 1972 maybe, it was a white working-class neighborhood. Everybody's parents were, the dads were all working at McCormick Spices or Bethlehem Steel, or maybe the Baltimore City Police Department.

Uh, well anyway, when the first black family moved in, there were some in the neighborhood that tried to drive them out. 

Angel B. Pérez: Mm-hmm. 

Dan Porterfield: You know, like threw things, eggs at the house or wrote graffiti on the sidewalk. And I, we lived in that neighborhood for a couple years and so I was really, you know, like torn up about that, seeing that. My mom was like the young hippie in the neighborhood, and she went up and she brought a casserole to this family and welcomed them. And I remember when she came back, I asked her like, you know, why'd you do that? And she said, well, someday you'll have to decide what kind of white person you're going to be.

Angel B. Pérez: Wow. 

Dan Porterfield: And so that kind of, I had a lot of those kinds of experiences. 

Angel B. Pérez: That was a pivotal moment in your life. 

Dan Porterfield: Absolutely. I had a lot of those kinds of experiences, really meaningful eye-opening. Sometimes very painful. You know, when my parents separated and divorced, it was extremely painful.

It didn't make sense to me as a 7-year-old. And at that time, you know, my mom was a single mother, so I felt a lot of shame about that. You know, I didn't have a dad in the house and in our neighborhood that was, you know, people looked at her a little differently, looked at us a little differently.

She was very much associated with the community around Morgan State College as it was called then. So and, you know, all African American community of professors and students. And so people in the neighborhood commented that, you know, how come you guys have black people over to your house?

That was a source of pride and not shame, but it was different. Everything was different for whatever reason. That was the point. My parents were different. I was different. And so I always had that feeling of being a little bit of an outsider, a little bit of an observer, and a little bit of like, I would like to make the world better because of that.

I couldn't have put words to that until I was 15 when I went to transferred from St. Paul's school for boys, because my mom let me, to Loyola High School. And the scholarship I had from the scholarship organization transferred with me, which I'm so lucky. I transferred because I was a good baseball player and St. Paul's didn't have baseball. And so I was like, mom, I played a lot of sports, but baseball was the one. And so she let me transfer. And the same thing. First day of school, I'm transferring you know, and I show up. And this Jesuit priest whose name, was the president, his name was Father Jim Salmon, was welcoming the sophomores back. Jesuits are an order of Catholic priests, and they run great schools and universities. They've been doing it for 500 years. And mine, Loyola was the Jesuit school in Baltimore. And Father Salmon, who I never met before, says to all these sophomores, including me, oh, you're sophomores now.

You're not freshman anymore. And so you have different responsibilities. Because you see, we Jesuits follow the order of our superior who teaches us that we are to be men and women for others. He just said men for others. We're going to be men for others. And um, so now that you're 15 and you're a sophomore, if you see the captain of the basketball team taking something out of the backpack of a ninth grader, even though he's six nine, your job is to go up and say, Hey, we don't do that here because you're a man for others.

You know, it's just one talk, and yet it absolutely crystallized for me what my purpose should be, which was to find fulfillment in life by helping other people. 

Angel B. Pérez: I love that notion. I wonder if you could say something about purpose, because I think so many people struggle with that. Um, and some people have feelings about it.

Like, oh, you know, purpose is one of these lofty things. People need jobs and goals. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: But I do, I am a believer in this. This language comes from Oprah Winfrey. I didn't make it up myself. But she's talks about life speaks to you and whispers. And you need to listen carefully. Um, and there's lots of different ways of listening, which I'd love to talk to you about in a bit.

But I wonder, especially because you've worked with young people your entire career, how do you think about this notion of purpose? How does one find their purpose? 

Dan Porterfield: Oh, I do think listening to, uh, the, if you will, discerning how the movements of your heart and what it is that we respond to. And I would've said that without having the vocabulary, my purpose up until I was about 13 or 14, was just to endure and survive all this change of our family, of my mom always being at school or always, you know, uh, being at work. Of my dad not being with us. Of our neighborhood disintegrating, you know, sort of, it actually was much stronger after it integrated.

But so, I was sort of just like getting through it. And then this other idea that by helping other people, you could fulfill yourself. That once that clicked. I really never have rethought about that. 

Angel B. Pérez: You've never gone back? 

Dan Porterfield: No, I've never gone back to reexamine that. 

Angel B. Pérez: And it's clear the decisions you've made around your career, particularly, and I'm sure your personal life as well, have really been deeply influenced by that.

Dan Porterfield: Entirely influenced by that. Not one thing hasn't been. 

Angel B. Pérez: So let's shift gears a little bit. I want to talk about leading in this moment in our history. It's not for the faint of heart. I don't need to go down the list of why being a leader right now is incredibly difficult. All you have to do is turn on your television.

And you and I are sitting in different kinds of hot seats. I'm wondering how you're thinking about this moment, and I know you advise a lot of leaders also Aspen does a lot of training 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: And institutes for leaders in education, nonprofits, so on and so forth. What has changed? Has the skillset needed evolved in order to be successful in this moment?

Dan Porterfield: You know, I believe that a real strength of excellent leaders is that they're authentic and that the way they carry themselves is consistent. Whether they're in a formal leadership role or moment or they're in some other aspect of life. And I think that in these times, that's especially important because if a leader's going to face criticism for anything they do, whether it's speaking or silence, whether it's action or waiting, then you have to have a strong sense of self and not, and be defined by an internal value system that allows you to believe that you are making the judgements that are authentic to yourself and your values.

And that's much more important when times are challenging than when you're on the top of the world and the organization you're a part of is, you know, hitting on all cylinders. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. 

Dan Porterfield: And everything feels easy. That's probably the most important thing, is to have a really strong compass and internal understanding of what it is I value and how do I live that?

And one thing I've learned from being exposed to the teachings of St. Ignatius Loyola, who founded the Jesuits 500 years ago, is that there are some disciplines you can bring to staying in touch with your true core beliefs, your purpose, and one of those is just a simple thing that's called the examine, which is a end of the day or beginning of the day reflection, an examination of the self where we just ask ourselves what am I grateful for?

What has been given to me in my life today that I've experienced that I'm so fortunate to have, and whether I'm thanking a friend and neighbor or God or somewhat society, but what am I grateful for? And then the examine says, as I think about what my core values are, where have I been falling short of those values today?

What would I need to ask forgiveness for? At least amend. And then how am I going to do that? And I think that act of remembering what it is we believe.

And then asking, how did I do today? Living into that belief is the definition of integrity. That if you live consistent with your values, you have integrity. Does everybody have integrity every second or every day?

No. Of course we make mistakes and we're sometimes blinded or we're self-regarding. But that said, the regular practice of thinking about that, even just for five minutes. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: So valuable. 

Angel B. Pérez: So powerful. You know, it's interesting. I love having more language around this, so thank you for sharing the Jesuit perspective.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: Because I actually probably a couple of years ago, got into gratitude journaling. And almost a day doesn't go by that I don't do it. And it's usually in the morning sitting in silence. Pre or post meditation. And it has helped me get through this particular moment in history, which is very disturbing for me, just as a human being, watching lots of suffering in the world.

But also remembering, despite everything we see on the news, there is still so much to be grateful for. And you can always find something to be grateful for. And I just start my day in such a positive, 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: On such a positive note.

Dan Porterfield: That's such a good thing to do. There are some dimensions of positive psychology that are about thinking this way.

How do you encourage other people to be able to recognize positives in their life or their environment? 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: So there's something to build from, even in moments of difficulty. In fact, especially in moments of difficulty. 

Angel B. Pérez: And I think for leaders it's incredibly important now because so much of our time is just being asked.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: You know, react, respond you know, and also care for everyone else around us that it's very difficult to, I call it getting off the dance floor and going on the balcony and just kind of taking a bird's eye view of what's happening. Most people don't stop, and it's incredibly important to take that pause.

Dan Porterfield: Yes. And I have, so I have two other thoughts on this. You know, leadership in complex times. One is to be a really good listener and to try to be a good observer. Henry James has this advice for a novelist where he said, try to be somebody on whom nothing is lost. So, you know, what can you see?

Especially again in difficult times, what can you learn? Um, and I think that's helpful. And then secondly, right along with that is my own little mantra I have, which is don't react. Respond. 

Angel B. Pérez: Respond. 

Dan Porterfield: And by respond, I mean sometimes do nothing. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. 

Dan Porterfield: But you choose to do nothing. Um, because we're, we're so inclined to fight, fight or flight.

And so the more a person has coming at them or the more intensity that comes at them, the more fight or flight is a likely natural response. And so I try to contain that into a framework where I'm being a little more analytical. One other thing I think is this is a, this, I'm going to try to raise a, like a deep topic here.

Angel B. Pérez: Let's go. Ready.

Dan Porterfield: Um, or if you're working at the level of societies and trauma, factions warring, war itself, you again, you're going to see things that are very difficult to see.

And a good leader, I think, has to be able to look at what is very unpleasant or painful. And to be able to have empathy for the people that are dealing with that, even though the act of looking and seeing and feeling it is going to almost inevitably bring you down emotionally. And the Jesuits have an understanding of when you get really down that they call desolation.

Desolation is when you feel devoid of meaning, love. And basic humanity around you. And it's actually a very common feeling, especially young people with strong feelings to feel, there's nothing around me. There's nobody that cares about me. There's no love in my life. And so, you know, we fear that feeling of desolation.

The Jesuits have a companion concept that they call consolation and consolation is when. In the face of desolation, we are able to also be in touch with the love of God in our life. If that's how we're oriented or the love of family or an exposure to, we can feel the goodness of life, whether it's even just the sun on our face, and that consolation is actually a superpower that allows us to experience desolation.

Because if you live a life where you don't want to confront the act and fact of injustice on fairness and 

Angel B. Pérez: suffering 

Dan Porterfield: And suffering, then you'll be removed. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right? 

Dan Porterfield: And that's a safer place to be, but. Even bolder is to try to be alert to it and yet not be disabled by it. Yeah. And so I find that harmony, if you will, almost between desolation and consolation to be something to reflect on, to think about, and to believe that if things are hard or difficult or beyond my control and if it makes me feel unhappy or sad, or even worse, desolation that still, through my education, through my family, through my friendships, through all the colleagues that are people serving human beings that I love working with. Through my belief in God, through my appreciation of the natural world, I have the resources to pull myself back up. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. You know, it's interesting you talked about a mantra that you had and because for me some of this is also about mindset shift. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: And I love that the Jesuits have concrete exercises that you could do. I'm certainly going to read more about this. You know, one of the things, mindset shifts that I have made, especially since I've been in a CO role, I used to say years ago, why is this happening to me?

And now I say, what am I here to learn? 

Dan Porterfield: That's great. 

Angel B. Pérez: What is this moment here to teach me? Because I realize each moment it's like I'm exercising, the muscles are getting stronger, and I certainly wouldn't be the leader I am today if it hadn't been for the difficult moments that I faced before. You wrote a book called Mindset Matters and it's really geared towards the transformative power of.

Higher education and how college changes students' lives. But I wonder, is there a corollary or lessons that are taught in that book for leaders today around mindset? Because I think that's half the battle. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. So the mindset is an orientation, a philosophy, a way of proceeding that you bring to your experience of opportunity risk.

Set back the day-to-day of life. And the idea of a growth mindset is Carol Dweck's concept that we can believe in ourselves as able to meet the moment with growth if we have grown, know we've grown and have learned how to enact our growth again. And so the book I read about five mindsets that I've observed through my work with students.

And the first one is to be a discoverer and to be able to ask questions that no one else has asked in order to find answers no one else has looked for. 

Angel B. Pérez: It's a great leadership trait 

Dan Porterfield: exactly 

Angel B. Pérez: right. 

Dan Porterfield: A second one is to be a creator, to have the orientation, the mindset that I am here, in part to add something to the world.

It could be a business, it could be an idea, it could be a campaign. It could be a new cultural creation. But again, to leave more than I took as a creator, A third mindset is the mindset to collaborate, to be a teammate to help understand and for one another, the power of we to shape and frame goals purposes and goals together as part of a group.

Angel B. Pérez: Leadership 101. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly.

Understand the different roles people play and how to come back at the end of something and assess what was learned, what was achieved. The fourth mindset for growth is the mindset to pay it forward through mentorship, to both to give it and to get it constantly, and to believe that there are certain kinds of experience and knowledge that can be passed down person to person far better than by reading a book or by, even emulating somebody you admire.

And then the fifth mindset. For growth that I write about is the mindset to strive, and by that, I mean to be pushed by our values. To go to the next place, the next terrain, the unfamiliar country, because in pushing ourselves forward, we're actually honoring that which is deepest in ourselves, this sense of hope and aspiration to become all we can be.

And so those five mindsets for growth, discovery, creating, collaborating, mentorship, and striving to live our values, I think are really great for leaders to think about as, 

Angel B. Pérez: oh, we're going to put those in the show notes because that is powerful. And one, I hope people read the book, especially if you work with students, it's so powerful, but also directly related to the work that any leader, and I would say any human because, we all, we all should have a growth mindset and work towards that. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. And of course the opposite is the fixed mindset, and that's the belief which we internalize sometimes because we our education or our families when we were younger or people that coached us or something that we're, our abilities are capped. And so the key to life is don't keep doing something you're bad at. Change and find something you can be good at. In fact, hide that you're quote bad at something, and that fixed mindset is actually debilitating, right? It keeps people from taking risks and from believing that they themselves have the power to lead their own learning. Now, when I, in this book, I wrote I studied closely the growth moments of about 35 students who I had known very well when they were at F & M, and I called them during Covid.

And I called about 50 and said, you know, talked about what was the last thing? What are you getting today in this difficult time from your education? Figured out there was something to write out of those calls and with the student's permission told these 35 stories. And there's one or two where we use pseudonyms because it's a little bit personal for the student to be named.

But basically almost all of the stories are about struggle and transcendence, about pushing ourselves to the that limit moment when we wonder, can I make that work of art? Do what I'm trying to do? Can our team achieve that goal that we've been working on for three months?

Angel B. Pérez: Right. 

Dan Porterfield: Can I actually honor my culture and my family's story by getting through this moment of depression that I'm feeling?

And so I do think that just like, you know, just like your legs hurt when you're young and you're growing, the bones hurt. So too, those growth moments,

Angel B. Pérez: They hurt when you're old too, by the way. 

Dan Porterfield: True. Those growth moments are, they come from difficulty, right? And that's what I wanted to honor in this book.

Sometimes when students come to educators with a really significant problem that they're working out, they're, and they're really doubt about it. It's important to listen, to be empathetic, and to help them see that they have the resources either within themselves or within their proximity to go deal with it.

So that the dealing with the difficulty becomes the lesson of the difficulty, not that it was done to you. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. I love this. So I want to pick up on a theme that's sort of hanging over us that we haven't gotten too deep about yet, but really, I believe in the power of vulnerability for leaders. Brene Brown writes a lot about this and.

I've learned this lesson over time. I think when I first became a leader, you know, Dean at a college, I felt like I had to be this person and persona and not bring my full self. And there's certainly a limit. You need to figure out what that balance is. But I had this really powerful experience a couple years ago, um, or several years ago, I think it was 2021.

I had been, I was in my second year in this role, and I had a very serious burnout episode. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: To the point where literally three o'clock every day I felt like I needed to go to bed. And I don't mean take a nap like fundamentally shut down. Never experienced anything like that. Because the running joke in my family is that I am the energizer bunny.

Like I'm always go, go, go. And long story short, you know, was trying to figure out like, am I not taking enough vitamins? Went to the doctor, went back to therapy and the therapist said if there was a photo in the dictionary for burnout, 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah, 

Angel B. Pérez: you would be it. And he had led to a mild depression, and I decided to write about it, and I decided to do some podcasts about it.

Those things went viral, um, in our community and it just struck a chord because I thought, this is just normal. I'm telling my story, but so many people reached out to me saying, the fact that you told that story, the fact that you've been vulnerable enough to share your humanity and how you dealt with it, is giving me permission to do so. A lot of people on my staff actually. Yeah. Um, felt that way too. And so I wonder how you think about vulnerability and how you've experienced that in your career. 

Dan Porterfield: Okay. I have three quick thoughts on that. So first when I was at Georgetown, it was, I was essentially teaching myself to teach.

I worked in the federal government for four years for HHS Secretary Donna Shalala. I earned my PhD from the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. And then I went to Georgetown where I was in a combined role, head of strategy and teaching. And I could teach as often or as little as I could, had the bandwidth for.

So I was teaching myself to teach and I was, you know, feeling just exhilarated by every class I taught and wanting to get better at it and better at it. And one time, you know, this student, who's fantastic, great person whose name is Benet, came in to talk with me about something that she was experiencing in her family.

And I was realized in talking to her that my parents had divorced when I was seven. That was the defining thing in my life for years, for years. All the different dimensions of that. And I remember just talking to her just a little bit about that and later feeling that that was a moment when I could be grateful that I had had that experience as a 7-year-old because it gave me a resource.

To be available to her. So that's one story and that's, that's, you know, that's something that really, we can feel a sense of pride and purpose in being able to discern how to use our life story and some of those moments. 

Angel B. Pérez: In service of others. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. In service of others. That's one thing. There's a second way, a kind of vulnerability, which is the willingness to put ourselves in positions where we really are like the sore thumb if you will. You really stand out. So my wife Karen and I moved into a dorm at Georgetown with three little girls, ages zero, five and six, when we were in our early forties. And we thought we'd try it out because, one, it would give me a chance to be an educator 24/7.

And two, we thought it would be kind of good for our family to do this adventure together. 

Angel B. Pérez: Probably cool for the kids, right? 

Dan Porterfield: And we thought it'd cool for the kids. 

Angel B. Pérez: Growing up on a college campus. 

Dan Porterfield: And it was, we ended up doing it for eight years. But I still remember vividly that feeling in the dorm of being like the 42-year-old man commandeering the dryers with six loads of pink laundry.

And people looking at me like who's that guy? And. At that moment, I was truly one of one, one, the only 42-year-old man in that building was me. And many other times I've been in circumstances where I was one of one, right? I lived in a village in Nicaragua when I was younger. I worked in prisons.

I worked in areas of Washington DC where all immigrant areas with, you know, helping families adjust to the us. So there's a lot of value in being willing to be the oddball. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: Whatever that means. The oddball to be the different one. And then the third point I want to make about this is there's also an equal value, a powerful compliment to vulnerability, which is boundaries.

So we make ourselves vulnerable, but we also hold trust if people know how far that might go. 

Angel B. Pérez: That's right. 

Dan Porterfield: What can I expect of you? And um, I always say to all these younger teachers I work with now through Teach for America and all my students who've done other kinds of programs where they wonder if I could be popular, if everybody would like me, if I could be sharing all the time, I could be super free with them.

They'll trust me because I'm so open. Like maybe not. If they don't know which you is going to show up one day, it's vulnerable the next day it's task master. Be careful. 

Right. 

Think about that. Because if they know they can trust you, what you are each day, then those moments when you stretch just a little will really be powerful.

But you have to be, you have to control that. 

Angel B. Pérez: You know? It's interesting. I feel the same way about it. It's similar and related. I always say to people who are emerging leaders in the spirit of controlling your emotions. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: For example, if you ever yell at your staff or you lose it, you're never going to get that trust back.

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. 

Angel B. Pérez: It's over. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. 

Angel B. Pérez: They are always, even if it was five years ago. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. 

Angel B. Pérez: They are always going to wonder which version of you is stepping into the room. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: And so in the spirit of self-management, that is a skill that leaders need to acquire pretty quickly. 

Dan Porterfield: Big, big time. One time I, when I was at F & M, I was watching a women's lacrosse match from the sidelines.

And a parent was standing next to me and. There had been a coaching change two years before, and she and her daughter had been unhappy about that coaching change. But then we're just sitting there and she says something like, Wow, my daughter, I'll just call her for the moment Lauren. Lauren's really thriving under Mike. That was the coach's name.

And I was looking out at the field watching. I said, well, why is that? And you know, because they had been disappointed that there had been a coaching change. Said well, Mike is the same person every day. He's so stable, whether they win or lose, whether my daughter played well or not. 

Angel B. Pérez: Mm-hmm.

Dan Porterfield: He's every day exactly the same. And she had never experienced that and she's responding to it so well. So I went home that night and said to my wife Karen, I'm going to make sure I'm thinking every day. Will I be the same person? 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: I think I was. But it's great to be intentional about that. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah, yeah. No it's so, so important.

Um, I want to talk a little bit about introspection as a tool for leaders. Yeah, I think these days leaders probably feel like introspection is a luxury. And I understand that because the schedules are overwhelming, the crises that need to be handled are happening, it feels like every five minutes. But you wrote an article that you sent to me, and you're such a prolific writer, which is why I always love highlighting your work.

Um, but it's in a book written for college presidents. And it's an article called "Being Contemplatives in Action". And you talk about this notion, which I believe is also Jesuit. Yes, it is con contemplatives in action. So I want to read a little, like two paragraphs where you really try to impress upon people the importance of doing this.

And the reason I want to share this. I think it's so critically important today. This is why we're doing this podcast for leaders to do their own inner work. If you do not look inward into your own moral compass and understand, why am I doing this? What are my values, who am I? All of that, you are not going to serve people well.

So it has to start inside, before you go external. So you write. Even for people with chaotic calendars, there are many ways to contemplate purposefully through meditation, prayer, conversations with friends, walks, therapy, mindfulness, imagination, writing, conversations, service, exercise, listening to music in simply dwelling in silence.

Some people like structure. While for others reflection is more freeform, what's key is to get started in the quiet of the evening or in the moments of doubt or pain. We ask ourselves, who am I really beyond the title I hold and the confidence with which I carry myself at work? What has shaped me? What do I value most?

What do I fear? When am I fulfilled and when am I not? Who relies upon me? What kind of a person am I trying to be? This is a running conversation of the soul. That is so beautiful. 

Dan Porterfield: Thank you. Yeah, that's certainly something that I absorbed through all the exposure I had to the ideas of the Jesuits and the actual teachers and mentors I had at many different stages of my life who were Jesuits.

Being a contemplative in action means that these two, if you will somewhat opposite impulses can be reconciled. So to contemplate, to reflect, you think of the person like out of the world in the monastic cell reflecting and praying contemplative in action. Serving the world, helping make the world a better place.

So how does it work to contemplate and act together? You have to incorporate that into daily life. You can't like leave for a month and come back and then work for a month and then start of us 

Angel B. Pérez: Can't be monastic, unfortunately. 

Dan Porterfield: No. No. And it's, I'm not sure the Jesuits would necessarily endorse that as a major methodology.

Because they were they started schools, they wanted to make a difference in so many ways. They taught not because the students were Catholic, but because they were Catholic. 

Angel B. Pérez: Mm. 

Dan Porterfield: So, being a contemplative in action means being willing to hold intention and creative tension to ideas that are not always aligned but are actually mutually sustaining when you do them both. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right.

Dan Porterfield: Sometimes institutions work that way. Like again, Georgetown, this great place I love. On the one hand, it's a Catholic and Jesuit institution. It's religious place for people of all religious professions. From its founding. That's what they said. It's also functions in a secular world. It has secular standards of excellence, but it also has spiritual standards of meaning, right?

And the secular and the spiritual exist in dialogue, often in alignment. But sometimes intention. And I think that that's what contempt of an action is to me too. Being willing to do both. Both. And um, certainly our actions in the world are probably going to be stronger, more impactful, more authentic to who we are if we put enough thought into them.

Both before and after in order to be our best. 

Angel B. Pérez: So let me ask you how you do that and I'll share a few, you know, one of my favorite quotes and I'm going to try to remember who said it. You can't do your part in changing the world if you're always in it. And it took me a really long time.

I am an extrovert. I do like to be surrounded by people, but I spend a lot more time in solitude now. Yeah. So I have a solitude practice. I have a meditation practice. I go on solo hikes to really try to sit in stillness, silence. And I find that's when the answers come, especially to complex problem solving.

Um, and that's when I get my most creative ideas. Do you have practices around? 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: You know, 

Dan Porterfield: Well one is, one is that daily examine. That's one.

Angel B. Pérez: Okay. 

Dan Porterfield: And then another one is absolute for me, anyway, is working out virtually every day. Yeah. And it used to be I ran every day, but now there's too much after effect.

So now I go elliptical every day. 

Angel B. Pérez: That's the way the bones hurt. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly 

Angel B. Pérez: What we were talking about earlier. 

Dan Porterfield: The and I think also. Of course, you know, having dialogue and intimacy with those who are closest to you is really another way for sure. Uh, because I work at the Aspen Institute, I've had more exposure to the beauty of the mountains than I ever had before, and so that's also another source.

Angel B. Pérez: Aspen, Colorado. 

Dan Porterfield: Being surprised by beauty and have that feeling of awe before nature or awe before, love before humanity. 

Angel B. Pérez: A lot of writing is happening right now around awe. 

Dan Porterfield: Oh, I know. I know. 

Angel B. Pérez: As something that we really take for granted. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. 

Dan Porterfield: I like the idea though, that in having those moments, what do you do with them?

And so that's the other thing is that when you have a moment of reflection and insight, epiphany, transcendence. Can you then do something with it and then that becomes another reflection point? 

Angel B. Pérez: I try to write about it. At least the next day. Not in the moment because I want to be in the moment, but usually the next morning when I'm gratitude journaling.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: When I've had some of those moments I write. because I love going back and remembering the feeling. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: That I had. 

Dan Porterfield: You know, and one thing that has sort of been. I'm transitioning right now. So I'm finishing my work at the Aspen Institute. I'll be starting my work at the Jack Kent Cook Foundation.

I'm also, you know, brand new and onboarding as chair of Teach for America, um, partnering with a Aneesh Sohoni, who's our CEO, who's fantastic. And then I'm also joining the board of American University right now. Oh, wow. So everything's onboarding. There's all this onboarding. 

Angel B. Pérez: So that's your second university board.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: You're at Colorado College as well. 

Dan Porterfield: Yes. I've been on like nine or 10 nonprofit boards. 

Angel B. Pérez: You're kinda busy. Dan, I'd like to know how you manage all of this. 

Dan Porterfield: Well, here's the point. Here's the point. Too busy in a way because there's all this change. There's all these new people, there's new issues.

There's honoring the transition from the Aspen Institute, all we want to do to make that work. For, for not just my successor, but for all of those we serve and our whole staff. And so I actually am waking up at all hours right now. And the second I wake up I'm thinking, and I then I realize, oh my gosh. I'm thinking it's two in the morning and I'm thinking. So I haven't totally figured out that yet. But what I'm trying to do is when that happens, sleeplessness, which I think probably affects, affects more than a few listeners. What I, 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah, give me any advice you have because I have the same issue.

Dan Porterfield: Well, what I try to do is have something that I can change, just change my thinking. Not for more meaning, but for a little bit of escape. And so I have stuff by my bed that I can read. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. 

Dan Porterfield: Even for five minutes. 

Angel B. Pérez: And don't read stuff about work. 

Dan Porterfield: No. 

Angel B. Pérez: Or anything serious. Like it's the only time I read fiction.

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. 

Angel B. Pérez: I'm not too much of a fiction reader, but it just switches my brain off. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. Like I, you know, I love sports and I'll read articles about Steph Curry, or about the New York Yankees or the Minnesota Vikings, all my favorites, and that flip can help. 

Angel B. Pérez: So. I wish I could talk to you all day, but with our limited time, I want to end before we go into a little fun lightning round to talk about careers.

You actually just talked about these transitions that you're making. I wonder, you've been so thoughtful about your career. I wonder how you think about the arc of a career. I'm sure many people who are watching and listening are thinking about their own careers. Oftentimes they're also wondering. When is it too long to be in an organization? What is too short?

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: When's the right time to move on? So, how have you made those decisions and what advice would you give to people about career? 

Dan Porterfield: Well, first of all, I'd say, I've had a lot of hard days. Um, I never had a bad day. 

Angel B. Pérez: Hmm. 

Dan Porterfield: Hard days that come to work all the time. Constantly. because the work we're doing is hard.

It's challenging. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. 

Dan Porterfield: But the reason no bad days is because I've always been able to say my work is a reflection of my values and my purpose, which is to help other people. So that's it. I also know enough to know that I would like to have jobs that allow me to work with people, to see the differences I'm making and to learn.

And so, and I would like to have love in my life, and so I would like to have enough boundaries that I have love at home while having all that. So if I put those things together and then live with those values. Love, learning, service, making a difference and knowing it. It's pretty easy to say.

There's lots of great opportunities out there. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. 

Dan Porterfield: Um, and there's, and it's not about what title next or at all? So that's one important thing. A second thing is, I always say to my mentees, you know, the ones that are younger. I have mentors who are younger too. But the mentees who are younger, I say to them as they're thinking about those career things that no one job will give you everything, probably.

But over the course of a career, you can experience almost everything. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: But you can't want to have it all. You can't have, 

Angel B. Pérez: And it's hard to picture it all because you don't know what's around the corner. 

Dan Porterfield: No. And in fact I think that's beautiful. 

Angel B. Pérez: But listen to the whispers. 

Dan Porterfield: Exactly. It's beautiful to be open.

Like I went from, if you think about it, I was in graduate school writing for the chancellor of CUNY to get my PhD and I went to the federal government. Then I went from the federal government to academia, then I went to Georgetown. Georgetown and Franklin & Marshall, to the Aspen Institute, and now to a foundation community.

And that's fun to go from different sectors, always people serving. I haven't yet worked a day of my life for a company, so maybe that's after Jack Kent Cooke. 

Angel B. Pérez: Exactly. 

Dan Porterfield: We'll start a coffee shop together. Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: I know I would. I would definitely love that. That certainly my dream had been to be a librarian someday.

Because I love to read. 

Dan Porterfield: All right, there you go. P and P Coffee. There'll be books, coffee, and the two of us. 

Angel B. Pérez: And I think we could do wine there as well.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. We'll, okay. We'll do a little bit. As long as there's chocolate then. 

Angel B. Pérez: Well actually, I would add something to your piece of advice, which you're not going to remember this, but you gave me this advice many years ago when I sat in your office and you've been very kind to mentor me as well as I thought about transitions in my career.

You said always remember. How you can make a difference in the chair that you actually sit and not think about it. You talk about a lot about not thinking about it from positionality. Yeah. That if you are passionate about a particular issue, how can you use the platform that you have in the very role you have, and it doesn't have to be a leadership role to make a difference and.

Fundamentally shifted my mindset. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. And we can change the way we work in the roles we're in and take on new challenges, new projects, new ways of being the CEO in your case, or what anybody's role, you can do it differently over a couple years. Yeah. And a lot of growth comes from that. That's what happened for me at Georgetown.

You know, I was a professor, I was head of strategy, but I also lived in a dorm for eight years. I was responsible for co-leading the effort to create the first LGBT resource center at a Catholic university. 

Angel B. Pérez: Wow. 

Dan Porterfield: I oversaw athletics for three years. I was the interim AD for one year. I oversaw the Georgetown's relationships with the Cristo Ray network and other people serving Catholic nonprofits.

Uh, I led some work on diversity and inclusion a number of times. So like I, I taught classes that connected to public health. I worked on a safe socializing initiative, you know, drinking without getting wasted kind of thing. So all these different ways of being myself in that role emerged over the years I was there.

No year was the same. 

Angel B. Pérez: And it keeps it fresh, right? Yes, it does. I actually just got, um, this advice from a mutual friend of ours, Joanne Berger-Sweeney, who was a president of Trinity College, who stepped down last year after 11 extraordinary years. And she said to me that there's no way she would've lasted that long in a college presidency if she hadn't reinvented herself.

Dan Porterfield: That's true. 

Angel B. Pérez: Almost every single year, you need new things to look forward to. You need new challenges. And you also need to be very intentional about what maybe I'll call outside projects are. What boards you join, or you know, what service you are going to be engaged in because it sort of gives you perspective and allows you to bring the same energy to the role because leaders aren't lasting as long as they used to.

And I think that's a good strategy too. 

Dan Porterfield: That's a good paragraph for people to get the print version of what you just said and put it by their desk. Very motivating. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. Okay, Dan, so I have a couple of questions for you. One, any books, podcasts, or resources that you would share besides obviously your fabulous book, but have you been reading anything particularly around leadership, spirituality, and inspiration that you would share?

Dan Porterfield: I'm reading a book called The Sparrow, which is a science fiction novel about, and I don't know where it's going to go exactly, but about a Jesuit priest who is abducted by aliens and uh, and has a horrific experience. What's interesting about this is the Jesuits, 

Angel B. Pérez: Does this get joyful at some point? 

Dan Porterfield: I don't know.

We will find out, but what's interesting is that Jesuits, of course, started in Rome, but went out all across Asia, Central and South America. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right. 

Dan Porterfield: And Europe. So it's playing off this idea of the Jesuit missionaries from an earlier era. Oh, interesting. We'll see. I'll say that also 

Angel B. Pérez: Seems like fun nighttime reading.

Dan Porterfield: Yes, it is. 

Angel B. Pérez: So it's not very stressful reading. 

Dan Porterfield: It is. Yeah. I was just reading Tony Jack's second book Class Dismissed. And there's a lot of great insights in that.

Angel B. Pérez: That's a great one. 

Dan Porterfield: So I like balancing books that are directly relevant to what I'm doing. With books that will just be, um, a new perspective.

And then in terms of podcasts, I got to get going. So maybe, I'm going to, this podcast is going to be one of my go-to. Now that I'm about to start in a new role where I'll have a little bit longer drive to work, I need some podcasts. Now TV, I watch way too much because I'm on the elliptical all the time. And so I like action-oriented things like you know, I've already run through the Sopranos, the Wire, everything you can run through. Obviously, Game of Thrones, everything you can run through of that genre, but there's a lot of, a lot of European versions of that. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: That sort of, those themes as well. So if any listeners have really great mafia shows, send them my way.

Angel B. Pérez: Yeah. Alright. Find Dan on social media. Okay. So you and I travel a lot for these jobs. Do you have a travel trick or a hack that you could recommend to our audience? 

Dan Porterfield: Well, one is, I have a colleague whose name is Christine Nickels, who helps me with all of my schedule and traveling, and she is a genius and a master.

She's amazing. So I wish we could clone Christine Nickels or perhaps make an AI. 

Angel B. Pérez: Shout out to Christine. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah, she's incredible and a great friend. And so one thing Christine taught me to do was to bank my miles so she can always get me in the exit rows. 

Angel B. Pérez: Ah. 

Dan Porterfield: And so I, because I'll, if I'm lucky enough to be upgraded, I'll sit in, you know, business class, but I'm never going to go right to business classes. 

Angel B. Pérez: Right? 

Dan Porterfield: It's just not a very good look. I feel guilty when I get upgraded. So she took care of me that way. That's one hack. And then a, another hack is to, um, bring. Things like cookies or little snacks in plastic bags and save the bags because those bags can be used for other things.

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. Mine is Ziploc bags. So I travel with Ziploc bags because I do try to go to the gym and be consistent when I'm on the road. And then you have these smelly gym clothes. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. So what are you going to put them in? 

Angel B. Pérez: But if you have a Ziploc bag, you're good to go. 

Dan Porterfield: I usually take the bags out of the hotel that they use for the dry cleaning. Same thing. 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes, I do that too. Okay, last question, Dan, what is the best leadership advice you've ever received? 

Dan Porterfield: I think the best leadership advice I've ever absorbed, because it wasn't said to me directly, was that story I told earlier about the importance of being the same person every day for those who rely on you as a part of their work or learning experience, so they never have to spend any energy coping with your you know, erratic moods, but rather can count on you to be what you are.

That's served me very, very well. Um, I also think that it's the examples of the Jesuits to be ready to serve is one. Maybe I could end with that. One time years ago there was a, um, terrible fight between two groups of students at Georgetown when I was working there. And it was a tragedy.

One of the students pushed the other student, the student hit his head, and that student was hospitalized at Georgetown Hospital in an induced coma. 

Angel B. Pérez: Oh gosh. 

Dan Porterfield: For four days. And about four days into this, the chief of staff at Georgetown came to my office next door and I was leading communications among other parts of my role.

She used to work at the hospital. She said, I just got a call from the hospital that the student passed away. And so, they gave us half an hour to be ready. Obviously say nothing but just give you a chance to think. So it was very, of course, very, very upsetting and I looked outside my office window, and which overlooked the quadrangle at Georgetown, where Dahlgren Chapel sits.

That's where I was married, and I watched my, one of my mentors from undergraduate, a Jesuit priest named father Hentz come out and sit down on a bench in Dahlgren Quad, and he knew what, I knew that the student had passed away and he went to sit there waiting because he knew when the students learned they were going to flock 

Angel B. Pérez: Yes. 

Dan Porterfield: To Dahlgren chapel.

And sure enough, that's exactly what happened. I watched that outside of my window. That quad was full with hundreds of students about 20 minutes later. And so that idea be ready to serve is one I think that father Hentz modeled for me. 

Angel B. Pérez: And you sat in silence, which again is something that we talked about a little bit earlier as opposed to immediately moving into action.

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: I love this notion of you were given 30 minutes to think. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: We don't give ourselves that precious time anymore. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. And it was a, it was a terrible tragedy. And, you know, I'm sure that the families that were living it directly have never stopped living it. I just thought it was beautiful the way father Hentz understood that he would be called because of his role and his training as a Jesuit to bear witness to the pain and anguish of all these students.

Angel B. Pérez: Mm. 

Dan Porterfield: And that he was ready to accept that responsibility. 

Angel B. Pérez: Be ready to serve. 

Dan Porterfield: Yeah. 

Angel B. Pérez: What a beautiful way to end. Dan, I want to thank you for being our first guest on the podcast. I really do believe you are a gift to our profession and to the earth, and I wish you all the best on the 18 jobs that you are currently holding and more, but you are certainly ready to serve and we are all the beneficiaries.

Dan Porterfield: Well, thank you Angel. 

Angel B. Pérez: Thank you. Thank you. 

Dan Porterfield: To be continued. 

Angel B. Pérez: To be continued. Thank you for joining us today. The Leaders of Human Podcast is brought to you by NACAC, the National Association for College Admission Counseling, where I have the honor of serving as CEO. If you enjoyed today's episode, I hope you will like, share and subscribe and make sure that you share with others.

Our goal is to create a coalition of healthy leaders around the world.