Ep. 8 - "I'm Gonna Be Fine" w/ Dr. Kate Sneddon

Dr. Kate Sneddon didn't choose to be diagnosed with cystic fibrosis at age 2.

But she did choose to be a college athlete, run a half marathon while coughing up blood at 19, become a PT, build a practice, and dedicate her career to helping ACLers come back better than before.

Kate's one of my favorite people, and not just because she's a sharp clinician with quick wit and a Long Island accent. There's something you notice when someone's been through the wringer and uses it as fuel to help others. Kate's that kind of person.

In this episode we get into:

• What it actually looks like to grow up with a chronic illness that nobody talks about, and what that taught her about showing up when your body isn't cooperating
• Why she chose ACLers, and the parallel between her CF journey and what her athletes go through
• Why criteria beats the calendar every time in ACL rehab
• The 55% stat we don't talk about enough for ACLers, and what's actually behind it
• The emotional toll of your ACL patient getting reinjured
• The dope-ass testing network she's building so no other ACLer gets failed by a clinic that doesn't know how to test them
• And what to say to yourself when you're in the worst season of your life

If you work with ACLers, make this your next listen or Kate and I won't be mad...we'll just be disappointed.

If you're going through something that's rocking your sense of who you are, Kate's got a word for you too.

Find Kate:
Instagram: @heliosaclproject | TikTok: @heliosaclproject | YouTube: Helios ACL Project

Links:

Book a free consult call with me: https://calendly.com/unbreakablestrengthonline/firestarter-call-1

Trying to get consistent with your own training? Get a free copy of the Consistency Catalyst guide: https://unbreakablestrength.kit.com/cac1abf5af

Wanna be more confident working with athletes in your practice? Get a free copy of the Confident Sports Clinician's Checklist: https://unbreakablestrength.kit.com/35c376acac

Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jared.unbreakable/

Follow me on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jared.unbreakable

Follow me on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@unbreakablestrength1

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

My name is Jared Maynard. I'm a physical therapist, strength coach, and in 2023 I was lying in an ICU bed on a ventilator. I made it out. And what I learned on the other side of that changed everything about how I live, how I coach, and what I believe is possible for the people who keep showing up. This show is for the coaches and clinicians. The people who give their all to everybody else and don't have much left over for themselves. On this show we talk about training and rehab as well as mental health, identity, and what it costs to be the kind of person who keeps showing up when the going gets tough. This show is meant to be your companion on the road. So come along. This is unbreakable. Hello and welcome back to Unbreakable with yours truly, Jared Maynard. This is, I think, episode eight. And I am not alone today. In fact, I have my good friend, Dr. Kate Snedden with me, and it's gonna be a great episode. Of that, you can be sure. Kate, how are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

I'm doing absolutely fantastic. Excited to chat today, excited to hang out with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Me too. I was thinking about this, Kate. The first time that I met you was inside of the Honey Badger project. Now, I say met. It wasn't one-on-one, but it was after I'd returned back to Honey Badger in some capacity after taking some time off for, you know, a little blip on the radar, almost dying. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Little thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah. And then in one of the group calls, I see Coach Kate pop up. And I'm like, damn, this girl's sharp. And maybe it was the Long Island accent. Maybe it was the witty sarcastic humor. Uh maybe it was the fact that you were making moves and building your business and helping ACLers. Maybe it was all three. Uh, but I was like, damn, cool. Kate wasn't there before, she is now, and she was very much on the radar, and it's been incredible to not only watch the journey, but also get to know you more on a personal level. So thanks for taking time out of your Friday to chat with me.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Well, thank you so much for having me. And I remember very clearly the first time I met you virtually as well, because obviously there'd been a lot of talk of this Jared Maynard character. And obviously, following along with the journey, I didn't know you prior, but when you did finally come back, I was like, what's going on? And I remember you're like, oh, you're excited to be able to go, I've heard so much. You're like, okay. And yeah, your reputation preceded you in the most positive way possible.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

It wasn't all just about my bald head, huh?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

It was not. It was mentioned. It was brought up, which thank goodness I prepared myself for.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, you I'm surprised you didn't have some shades on the first time you saw me, you know?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

It was, yeah, well, luckily the screen takes a couple shades off. I just turned the brightness down a bit.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Thank God for zoom and for brightness adjustments. So, for anybody who's not familiar with you, Kate, give them the elevator pitch. Condense your whole life story. I'm teasing. But what are the top things that you want people to know at the outset before we get into the rest of the conversation?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah, so first off, my name is Kate. Um my, you know, career to get to an ACL coach. Definitely didn't see this coming when I graduated from PT school, let alone even, you know, a couple years into practice until COVID hit. Um I am extremely passionate about helping ACLers, and I want to help you guys feel better about the way that you're serving ACLers you work with, um, and just how to deal with it all. Because it can be quite a heavy population to work with when the stakes are so high. Um, so we're gonna talk about that. My hope is we can talk a little bit about my journey in a way that might open your eyes a little bit to to some of the things that I struggled with and you may be struggling with. And I hope that it's an interesting conversation. Um and I think it's gonna be a good one. So I guess hang tight and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Stay tuned. Yeah, you are gonna want to stay for for the entire episode. Um, there are multiple reasons for that, especially if you're a clinician, even if you don't specialize in ACL like Kate or other clinicians do, we all are going to or have encountered folks who have an ACL injury, or we need to be up to speed on how to work with them the best. And like we're gonna get into the stakes can be pretty high. And I think most of us feel that. So, Kate, I don't think you can get a better person than Kate to help cut through some of the noise and give you something useful for your next patient. So, I know you said ACL, you didn't see it coming. Let's start with PT. How how what got you on the path to becoming a PT? Was it something that young Kate knew she wanted to do from an early age, or did it kind of fall in your lap another way?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So it definitely fell in my lap. Um initially, I when I was younger, you know, I knew I wanted to do something science-based. I knew I wanted to get into the medical field, I thought. Um, and I was considering med school. Now I have cystic fibrosis, so I have been in and out of doctors' offices my my whole entire life. I've seen some amazing care and I've seen some lackluster care. Um, I knew I wanted to be one of the people that provided amazing care and made me feel the way that my amazing pediatrician, Dr. Jramon, made me feel. So looking forward, I'm in college, health is starting to tank a little bit. So I was making decisions around my future, and I thought that I wouldn't be able to sustain my health enough to make it through med school. I had never, like, I was a college athlete, I was in rowing, but I just kind of saw the writing on the wall that I was starting to decline a little bit. And so I kind of looked around to my rowing teammates. I was at University of Delaware, which has one of the leading uh physical therapy programs, and I said, So what's going on with PT? You guys are all exercise science majors, right? Um, and I just started talking to people, and I said, Well, I I like to talk, I like to exercise. Those are things that really align with me. Um, and that was when I started to shadow. Now, once I started to shadow, I started to see myself in the people that I was helping. Obviously, I had a body that I was constantly negotiating with to try and be in the activities I wanted to be. Um, and so I said, Well, I kind of like how Dr. Kate sounds. I think I can do it. And so I kind of I just went for it when I applied to a bunch of PT schools, way too many. I didn't need to apply to that many. Um, and I ended up getting into Stony Brook, which is where I went to PT school. Um, so that was kind of the the start of my journey. A little bit random, a little bit knowing that, you know, I wanted to learn skills that would help me, for lack of a better term, control my health in the future and stay healthy. And I felt like PT could be an avenue to do that, and I hoped to learn things along the way that would help me heal myself. Um, I also love to work a room, so I loved that when I was shadowing the orthopedic clinic. I was popping around and talking to people, I was like, this is these audience members can't leave, it's perfect. Um, and so that's that's how I kind of found it. There wasn't some like catastrophic injury I had, but the process of getting a lung exacerbation, making a comeback sports were always the thing that helped pull me out of those and be motivated to work really hard um to get my health back at whatever given time that you know I was going through an exacerbation. Um, so it kind of just really aligned with my my spirit and how I wanted to grow in my life. And I just thought I could do it. So that's kind of why I decided to go for it.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I love that. Uh so many threads that I want to explore. One is yeah, just knowing you, I could talk, I can do it. Uh yes you can, and talk about having a captive audience, um, which is for their benefit for the record, Kate. You know, I'm I'm excited for all of the people that you have worked with and will work with because everyone needs some cake in their life. Um when it comes to that last piece, you know, you thought you could do it. Clearly you can. Has that always been your attitude? Have you always been that kind of I got this kind of person? Or did was that something you developed or learned along the way?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

I don't I I truly think I was born with that attitude. And I guess, you know, instilled from my mom, who always supported me, really was like, Kate, you can do anything. And I said, I really believe you. Um I was always, you know, growing up with CF, like at the time when I was diagnosed, the I think the mortality was around 18 years old, typically. That was like the average when I was born in nine, uh, when I was diagnosed in 1996. So as I got older, obviously that that kept rising up, but that was sort of always, even if I'm you're young and you don't fully understand your own, you know, fragility as a human being. I was always someone that it was important to me to overcome the odds. And when I was younger, it's just because like I wanted to participate. And as I started to mature and wrap my head around, okay, like what is my future look like compared to my friends' futures. I kind of had this almost stubborn audacity that I was gonna, you know, no matter what came my way, I was gonna overcome the odds because that's what I was doing. You know, there were other people at CCF that I knew that unfortunately were not successful, and some of that is luck, some of that is, you know, their their habits, their psychosocial stuff. Um, but from the people that I knew, which is a very limited amount, I was the only one who was living a somewhat normal life. Um, and so the proof was there. I I can do it. And I don't know why other people might not be able to, but that was my internal belief. Um, and that started to fall apart a little bit as I moved through college and and got to a place where I had my first real like, I'm really sick, um, to the point where I'm, you know, coughing up blood and and my mom has to come stay with me at school, and I'm a sophomore in college, and just to get me through a few weeks while I'm on a pick line and recovering. Um, but at that point, I signed up for a half marathon. So it's like that was my my coping mechanism was all right, I'm gonna come back from this and do the next hardest thing that I know how to do. And it's kind of always been my attitude.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Are you comfortable if I keep asking some follow-up questions on the case? Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

I appreciate it. Uming that you were the only one who that you saw and you knew a CF who was living a somewhat normal life, I know you were a rower in college. Did you say if you played any sports in high school?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, so soccer was my main sport. Um, but then I just did whatever would fill the time too. Like I I'm someone that likes to move. So I played lacrosse, I did winter track in between those two seasons. Soccer was my main love and definitely the thing that I was best at. But if you grow up in Long Island, you basically they put a lacrosse hand in your stick at like in in your hand a lacrosse stick in your hand at birth. So lacrosse was part of my life too. Rowing was kind of by chance. Um, I just sort of fell into it when I got to college and ended up making the varsity team, which was like not part of my plan. But I was like, it's college, I want to do new stuff, I'm having fun. And I was like very bored. Like I wasn't used to having free time. I didn't like free time. So part of the reason was I want new experiences. Part of the reason is I know my health is a problem, and I should surround myself with things that make me better and keep me healthy. So that was the other motivation behind it.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Right. Did you feel different at that point compared to your peers dealing with CF the way that you had to?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Or not really at that stage in my life, I had really compartmentalized a lot of the emotional pain of what it means to live with CF and what my future looks like. Um, and I think the feeling I would describe myself with was I was kind of numb at that time. Like I wasn't letting myself even even look at it or see it. So in part, I was I grew up with CF, right? You you just get used to the routines, they become the same as brushing your teeth. I just had to do 45 minutes of treatments before I went to class, and 45 minutes of treatments when I got home later that day. But at that point, it that wasn't the issue to me. It was now I'm doing all the right stuff and I'm still not doing well.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. I can very much relate to being numb and not letting yourself go there. Um We knew that something was wrong with my vision when I was like six. I couldn't see it in the dark. I would walk into potholes in the pavement that anybody with typical vision would be able to see from the street lights. And well, we didn't have the diagnosis, um at least not the official diagnosis, till I was 19 or 20. Uh we knew that something was wrong, and we even had a stand-in diagnosis, which was still a progressive genetic, incurable disease. And for me, it was like I knew there was a rain cloud on the horizon, I could see it, but I put that in a box and I shoved it away and I didn't think about it as a protection mechanism. Did any of that feel similar or different for where you were in high school?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

That's exactly what it is. And I would say high school, I really was okay. Uh, because my health was good. And so how whenever my health was good, mentally, um, the future is bright, I could do anything. And then once your physical health starts to deteriorate, the the cracks through the I guess mental picture I had put together to to blind myself from what might actually be ahead, you start to see through that. Um, so college, PT school is when I started to really get my first glimpses into how how nasty cystic fibrosis can be.

SPEAKER_00 16:01

You were saying that that's where despite keeping up with the routine, doing your treatments, your health started to fall off a cliff or go down downhill to the point where you were coughing up blood if you're open and comfortable enough. Like what else was going on? What was that shift?

SPEAKER_01 16:22

So I I think it's worth mentioning, and I don't usually tell this part of the story, but I think I'm not I'm not fully sharing if I don't. So growing up, my father was an alcoholic, and so there were periods of my life when the worst thing happening had nothing to do with CF. So I think the periods where I was struggling the most in life, you s you see the parallel in your health where I just start showing up a little bit less because I don't have the bandwidth, and then things kind of start to trickle. So that was a piece of it, uh a hundred percent. Um, and then with CF, like I'm in college, I'm living like a college student. I mean that crappy old dining hall food, sorry, University LR, it wasn't it wasn't great. Um I'm you know, partying like a college student because I craved those experiences so badly, even if they weren't things that served me. Um and so that cycle would I'd I'd get on top of it, I'd get my health back, and then time goes by, you start to let it leave your mind, and then the the health starts to crumble a little bit more. And so the there were some bad exacerbations in college, but I overcame them. You know, I went on a pick line, I started training for a half marathon, I worked through it, um, I said my affirmations out loud like a psycho as I'm running, and I and I came to the other side. And so it fed into this narrative of no matter what comes my way, I'm gonna be fine. Because the setbacks were, yeah, they were bumps in the road, but more or less I was able to correct them with my behaviors. Um, now where I got really thrown off was my first year of PT school. So it's heading into that end of the first semester. And if anyone that's been to PT school knows like the first semester, you're like, I'm holding on tight, I just need to make it to the next week over and over and over and over again. Um, and so I really was struggling mentally at that time because of you know family stuff going on, and I started to slip into I'm just not showing up the way that I need to, and the level that I need to show up is higher than the average person. It just is when it comes to health behaviors, and so I had my st I'll never forget, I had my statistics midterm, didn't do great on it, but then I was going to meet my college friends. We do this trip to Sanibel Island every year, and I was so excited. So we go to Florida, all of a sudden I get this this ripping pain in my belly, which was atypical for me. But cystic fibrosis is also a uh digestive disease, it's not just lungs. So I found myself writhing in pain on a public bathroom floor in Florida. You may not know this about me. I typically don't lay down on public bathroom floors, it's not my jam. So I was really in excruciating pain. Then all of a sudden, like that, it's it's gone. I said, Oh, that's weird. Continue on with my day. Trip goes on, we have fun, I come home, and I have a checkup with my doctor. Now I look in the mirror, I go, I'm actually pretty tan. Wow, I guess I really got some color. My doctor goes, Kate, your eyeballs are yellow. I go, what? I was jaundicing. So I had a a gallstone, and I know that's actually very similar to how some elements of your story where you're like, how did I not know I was yellow? I was completely yellow.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah, you look good, it's scary. And so I have a gallstone. It needs to be removed. Pretty routine procedure. I go to the hospital. When I wake up, the first memory I have is the nurse saying, Kate, I told you this already. And I was like, What? She was, you can't go to you can't go to school. There's something bad has happened. You've had a medical emergency. And so I remember like just snapping into consciousness. Now I had been awake before that. I was talking to people, but I had no recollection. Um, and so I go, What? And she was when they did the procedure, you had a vessel in your lung that burst. They were able to quarterise it. But you're you're in the ICU right now. And like I just remember that feeling of what is happening? And so that week I was in the ICU. I was desperate. So it was my my finals were the next week. I was desperate to get back, but the the question. Underneath that, obviously, was what does this mean for me? Is is my future gonna be the same? Am I am I ever gonna be that PT that I dreamed of being that I'm working for? Um, and that's really scary. Now I had lost a whole bunch of weight, but I was able to, you know, get get cleared to walk. You know, it had only been a few days, so I didn't have a lot of deconditioning, but very quickly I went from someone that was capable moving forward in life to I don't know how I get back to myself. And that's a really scary thing. Really scary thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Can I jump in on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

First off, thank you for sharing all of this, Kate. I'd have to imagine that especially for someone whose whole life has been I got this. No problem to be in that place where not only is your is there a real question about like your basic functionality, but also a hit to your identity. Just tossed into this sea of uncertainty. Probably hits all the harder, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Yeah. It was let's it was scary, but it hadn't even fully hit me yet until I got back to school. And I will never ever forget. Our lectures were held in the basement because I was in the Southampton campus. I had my pick line in. I was holding, they kind of look like little water balloons. It's actually pretty cool. So I'm holding it in one hand, and I go to take a step down the stairs, and I felt my leg shaking. Uncontrollable shaking. Partially from weakness, partially because it hit me. Um I don't feel like me. Like I didn't now I'm gonna show up in front of all my friends and be strong. They knew I was in the hospital, but they know me as the Kate that Kate's got this. Like, she's she's strong enough, she could do anything. This is she's yeah, she knows what this is like, but this was completely different. And I walked down the stairs gripping like white knuckle the railing, and I walked into that classroom and I put on the bravest face that I could. And I'll just never forget that feeling of this is so different, and I'm so scared, and I can't let anyone know. I I just can't let them know because then it becomes real to me. And so that was like the first real reality slapping me in the face moment of you've got a very long road ahead of you, Kate. They don't know the extent of the damage, um, and I wasn't sure what was next.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

So that was stay in that gear of uh I'm just I'm as a girl dad, I'm naturally thinking of frozen. Don't let them in, don't let them see. I mean, making light of a really awful situation. How long did you kind of keep that close to the chest?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Months, honestly. But I had a very good friend, shout out to Tara, who who lived with me, that just was there for me. Like, we didn't necessarily talk about some of this stuff. I told her I was really sad, and just her being there was really helpful. Um, and so week by week I started to get a little bit better. And she was the the first time I went to work out again was with her because I was like, I I can't go alone. Um, and then I was once again hit in the face with you're you're not even close to where you were before. We did this like workout class at Crunch Fitness, like a box gym. I think it was like like booty blaster 5000 or something. And like I put my arms down to do a plank, not even three seconds in, I had to stop. And just that constant assault was kind of marked the next eight months for me. But day by day, brick by brick, rebuilt. I tracked my uh pulmonary function tests and every intervention I did obsessively to a point that wasn't healthy. Um, but I do think part of that is why I love discussing this with ACLers now, where they are in their journey, which we can talk about later. But finally, eight months later, pulmonary function test comes back. I'm back at the FAV one level that I was before this all happened. So if we think about the journey of ACLers, like it's a very similar timeline too, just a different uh mechanism of a comeback.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

As I was prepping for this episode, I wanted to ask specifically about that. Because, like you said at the top of it, you know, ACLers very much not part of the original itinerary for your career trajectory, but here you are. And I wanted to know if you see parallels between your journey with CF and those of the ACLers that you work with. And it sounds like the answer is yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

The answer is in a a big fat yes, and that is really how I got into wanting to specialize in ACL care. I think there's without that journey, I wouldn't resonate with this population as much as I did when I started working as a PT. And I immediately saw like the things that they were struggling with and bringing up to me, just sharing my story and how I what I lived through, like I trust you now. Like you you get what it's like to be ripped from yourself and to not know what the path back is to even feel remotely close to the person you used to be or what the future is gonna look like because that is that is so in line with what my experience was. And I did bring up some of the the family issues I was struggling with for the reason that sometimes like the things going on in people's lives, like aren't even the ACL recovery isn't even the worst of it. And I'm asking these people to show up through a season of life that might be the hardest thing they ever dealt with, and and show themselves acts of self-love by going to the gym and exercising and doing their mobility blocks when there's so much life load on them at a given time that if I didn't have those experiences, I wouldn't understand that at all. So, in a way, I'm I'm thankful. Um I don't want to do it again though. I'm good. I learned it. I learned it. But it served me and my practice a lot, and I'm thankful that I have that experience to draw from.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Totally. You said at the end of some of the notes you shot over beforehand about how what it's like and what's necessary to support these people, these ACLers, at what might be the lowest point of their life. My belief the longer that I've been around, the longer that I've practiced, is that the clinicians who are often the best. I'll define what I mean by the best. But clinician clinicians who are often the best are the ones who have been through some shit themselves. And or at least have the empathy to be able to bring this understanding of like, yeah, here's the clinical presentation and the clinical problem that we're working with. But also, how's the rest of you? What does life look like? Who cares enough to to ask those questions and hold that space and just really really care for the person as a whole, which knowing you as I do, uh, you are probably the best embodiment I can think of of that.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Well, thank you. That's that's a really nice thing to say, Jared.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

You're very welcome, Kate. You've earned it. Um I had another question. This is it. Oh, I said I'd define what I mean by best um for clinicians first before I move on and forget that point. I don't necessarily mean the clinician who knows the best and can recite all the stats the cleanest and the quickest and has the latest like CPG for whatever. I mean the the clinician who can help people achieve their goals the best or well at least, and it takes both the technical skills, the clinical knowledge and expertise, especially when it comes to something as significant and as high stakes as ACL rehab, as well as we're not working with just an ACL or just a knee. That knee and ACL happen to be attached to a whole ass person with all of the expectations and fears and worries and life stresses. So again, being a being someone who's able to as much as possible see all of that, care all about about all of those things, that's what I mean by best. Would you define that any differently, or do you see it similarly?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

No, I would you in fact articulated it way better than I think that I could. In my, I think when I started as a new grad, I felt all this like immense pressure to have all the answers and and to know the stats and be able to describe it. And kind of as I've matured and my practice has evolved, and I've you know been at this now six and a half years. Um I've kind of learned the more I connect with the person, the better they get, the better they're gonna do, the more engaged they're gonna be, and the higher the likelihood that they're gonna get to where they want to get. Um so if that adds anything to your definition, I would agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Yeah. We're gonna dive into the the clinical side, and this is where it's gonna be really tactical and useful for everybody listening. Um before we do that, your tagline, or maybe the motto, I think the official motto of the Helios ACL project is helping ACLers get from or go from I hope I get back to I'm better than before. That I do. Did I get it?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

You perfect and perfect tone too.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

You know, I've I did some research before this. Uh what when in your journey did you feel like you reached better than before? Or do you feel like you're there now? Yet.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Ooh, that's such a that's such a good question. Um better than before, I'm certainly better than I was before. The ways that I grew sh surprised me. And I think anyone that I'm guiding through an ACL recovery, or they I have the honor of helping them navigate ACL recovery. I think they come into the journey too, thinking that it's all about numbers, it's about speed, it's about performance. And even if your goal isn't sport, um, I work with a lot of people who are hiking, outdoors people, like anything, life is a performance, so anything you want to perform at, they come into this thinking, I'm gonna be better at that thing. And they leave better because they've, you know, achieved function that was important to them. But even more than that, they learned to be kind to themselves through this injury. They learned that they can overcome way more than they thought. There's less, you know, my hope is less fear for the future, not just about injury. Like, I handled this, I've developed skills, I can handle anything that comes my way. And that's my true definition of I came back better. And that's how I feel about my journey now. Um, and it took me a very long time to be able to say that. Um, and I have some medications on my side that have been developed since then that are absolutely helping. Um, but I would say on all fronts, I am back better, but I'm never gonna stop evolving. And I hope that people that work with me get a get some of that attitude and learn that they can still keep growing and getting better.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

I don't think I don't think anybody can be around you for very long, Kate, and not have not be infected by that uh that message and that lesson. And I do mean that. Um I'm I'm really glad uh one to have you here, not just on the podcast, but in our space and to know you. And very glad to know that you're in a place where you are better. Um I can relate to a lot of what you just said and also want to affirm that this stuff takes time. Um whether you would agree or use the word grief um as part of what you've processed and navigated through this whole journey, it's some it's certainly something that I would and do use. And you don't have to be dealing with CF or CHM, which is what I have, or any other particular disease. Um but when you go through these periods of time, whether it's an injury or some sort of affront to what you can do, what you love to do, what you've always been able to do, who you are, how you define yourself. It's only natural that there is this grief and a whole host of other emotions and things that take a whole lot longer to process and wade through than we want. And I think that uh when you're in it, it helps to just be affirmed that take the time that you need, it sucks. Um, and we all wish it were a lot shorter, uh, but you're also not the only one going through it, you're not alone with it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yeah, that's really beautiful, and I think the if you try to starve yourself of that morning too, it's just gonna manifest in other ways. So, like what I've done and end up telling people I work with like I can tell you need to be mad right now, take 24 hours and throw a freaking fit, like stomp your feet around, don't do anything productive, don't fold your laundry if you don't want to, like, give yourself that time because you're gonna feel a lot better if you let yourself actually have it and not force positivity upon yourself if you're not ready for that.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Love that. How do people respond when you tell them that?

SPEAKER_01 38:06

I think they're pretty relieved because I I have a reputation of being very positive, but I also can sense when someone's like, I'm not there, I'm not buying it. It's like, all right, let's take a step back. I won't force it.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

I love that. So let's let's get nerdy with it, Kate. Uh when it comes to ACLs, you could speak to it better than I could. My sense of it is that as a whole in our profession in PT, we are probably doing better than we were about 10 years ago, but a whole lot of improvement to be made. That's broad. But would you agree with that or would you see it differently?

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I I agree wholeheartedly. Um, I think there's a lot more awareness now of things that need to change. Um, and I sometimes on my page I feel like I'm I'm bashing PTs, and I I never want people to feel that way. I'm just drawing the comparison of where we need to be is so far from where we are as a whole. And there's some amazing clinicians that are smarter than I am that are putting together some really amazing research and pushing the envelope and finding new ways that we can help people reduce injury rates and identify contributing factors, people who might be at risk, and then there's people that are getting shorter quads with one pound for six months and nothing else, and then being cast to the world, not only not confident and at risk, but legitimately disabled, and it's that serious. So the people that I think are listening to the podcast, I have a feeling these are the people that are trying really, really hard. And so I want to acknowledge that. Like, thank you. Um we need an army, in a true army to actually impact ACLers the way that we need to, but we also need a whole lot of education and a big push that we're not gonna accept that bottom 50% anymore. Um, and that's kind of how I try to navigate that uh conversation.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Love it. And agreed, the people who are listening to this are in the former category. They're the ones who really care and are uh probably taking an undue amount of of maybe a slightly disproportionate amount of stress or pressure. Uh as you say, this is an important thing. The stakes are high. Just to illustrate that more, you shared a stat before. Uh paint the picture of the stats for how likely it is that somebody with an ACL injury returns to their previous level of function.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yeah, so this is a this set of statistics boils my blood and keeps truly keeps me up at night. So everyone knows about retail rates. We're getting better as a as a collective. Um, let's say one in six people will experience a retail, which is an improvement because it used to be one in four. So let's say one in six are experiencing retails. Some portion of those will be on their opposite side, a smaller portion will be on the same side. The stat that freaks me out and should freak you out too, is that 55% of people are not returning to their prior level of function. What that means to me, that is the busy mom that can't keep up with her kids. That is the college athlete that is having debilitating knee pain when they even walk down the stairs. This, these people aren't even getting to a place where they're cleared for sport. And if they are, it's not even touching where they were before their injury. Now, ACL injury is multifactorial. I want to say there's a day when we will be able to reliably prevent them 100% and we'll keep striving towards it. Right now, that's not the case. I think the statistic we can change the most is this ugly old 55% number. Because anyone that gets into this field gets into this field to help people, and systematically we are failing people. Now, some of that is not to do with just like the clinical side, some of that is to do with the system overall. People getting 12 sessions, people um not being able to afford or go to clinics that actually have like strength training equipment, um, there's a lot of barriers that our system creates, even if you want to do good, that might hinder and contribute to that statistic. Um I believe if we focus on that, the rare rates will drop. And I truly believe that if everyone got testing informed care and everyone got a program that was of appropriate duration, because this is a 12 to 15 month recovery, that we would see that retail rate drop to below five or 10%, which is what I've seen in my practice. Now I'm hesitant to ever share statistics like that because the only way for it to go is up. It can never go down. But I think we have a lot of power to. Change these statistics, and that's why I'm gonna keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

I have a question for you that my wife would hate, and we're gonna see where you fall on it, Kate. Let's say that we're on sabbatical, uh, and we happen to come across a magic lamp happens to house a genie, as these are wont to do. And the first wish that's granted is Kate is put in charge of all of physical therapy in the United States for one day. There's some caveats, and you know, there's a fine print. That's why it's only one day. What changes, what changes are you making first so that ACLers get better care and that these stats start improving?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Now for clarification, is this genie have three wishes, or I can do whatever I want with the day? I want to be accurate to the question here.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

Let's say for for argument's sake, there are in fact three wishes, but the other two are spoken for, so there's only one to be allocated for Kate in charge of PT.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

It's a weird situation. Don't question it.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Okay. So immediate things I would change is. This might not answer your question. I don't care. I'm doing it how I want.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Do it.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Care starts 24 hours after surgery, and it continues until they reach their goals. Whether that be nine months, one year, two years, three years. That's the first thing. Second thing, everyone gets full knee extension to the other leg. That happens. I just snap my fingers and it happens. Zero is not enough, and I'm sick of pretending that it is. I've never pretended it is, but we're not gonna continue to pretend that. Strength and conditioning is part of the process. ACLRs, as soon as they can walk, there's lifting that's appropriate for them, and they're getting loaded as soon as possible within their tolerance, of course. Every protocol would burst into flames and disappear because there's no such thing as a successful time-based protocol. Every ACLR would have an isokinetic dynamometer in their house. I this is now we're getting beyond physical therapy. It would be readily available so that we could do periodic testing throughout. They would have access to force plates and they would have access to someone that can answer their questions and provide a plan and communicate with them on that plan throughout the entire journey. Let's just say 24 hours a day, because I'm a genie and I can do whatever I want. If those things were true, I think most people barring something unpredictable and unpreventable happening would get to the other side of it, and it would be just a knee surgery and not a life-altering event.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

Get me that lamp, Jared. I need that lamp. I know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

I'll make some calls. I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

I know you're a powerful guy. I just didn't know we had genie access.

SPEAKER_00 47:42

Oh, you know, I'm always expanding the network. And it's it's uh it's it's good to have some people who can do you favors every so often. Um let's shift to the uh not less glamorous, but like the really difficult part of what you embedded in there. Um retails.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

As long as you're comfortable. I think it's a it's it's on clinicians' minds, you know, again, whether we're somebody who specializes in and focuses on working with ACLers, or we're in a general orthopedic practice and somebody comes in with a suspected ACL tear or a confirmed one on their post op. Um there's the fear of like, what if I mess up and what if they get hard again? That's happened for some of your folks, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, it's unavoidable. So I we would be doing a disservice to clinicians everywhere if we didn't talk about the hardest parts. Um, and that's when things don't go to plan.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Now it's it's broad, but how do you, yeah, how do you navigate that and how do you yeah, how do you deal with it, both personally and then as the clinician or coach?

SPEAKER_01 49:01

So first I want to talk about my belief system. I think it's important. I believe there is honor, and it is for me a spiritual endeavor to try my best to help people, even if I can't control everything and I can't guarantee success. But to me, if I show up and I try my best and I give them every tool available to succeed, I'm I'm in line with what my life's purpose is, and I know that I will try as hard as humanly possible. Um, so because that is my belief that that the work I'm doing, there's honor in it. And I hope if you work with this population and you're listening to this podcast, you believe in there's there's honor and some spiritual connection to what you're doing, trying to show up for people that you might be the only thing standing between them and a retail or them and not getting back to a place where they recognize themselves. So let's start with that. That that needs to be a belief that you bring with you, or whatever belief system you have. You don't have to have my worldview, but that is my belief. So there were periods in my journey where I tried to feel less because I was in those very few situations where someone did have a retail, it affected me catastrophically to a point that I said, it's it's not healthy. And I almost thought, well, well, maybe I just do something else. Maybe I do something lower risk. And then I thought to myself, well, who shows up for them if it's not me? And the patients that are seeing you, who are they gonna see if you really are the one that's going to try the hardest? So I have that belief behind me, and I have the confidence that that is how I'm showing up to serve people, then I can add the science on top of it. And those two things together, I think, are really, really powerful. So there's a lot of data around return to sport testing, there's a a lot of information out there that helps us create clarity and make that decision, but there's always going to be a gray area, right? So my belief is that if people are passing a big old battery of tests, it gives me the inclination they might succeed. The process is how I create con or we create confidence, rebuild confidence within themselves. I don't create anything. Um, if those things are true and we've done everything right, it doesn't make it suck any less when someone retires. It doesn't. And talk about this is what we know. The risk is never zero. If you go back to sport, it's chaotic, the forces are violent, it's really fun, but that is the nature of it. And so you've done this, this, and this, and this. And that showed me that you have the highest likelihood of being ready. And so you can rest assured that you've done everything you can. Anything else that happens outside in the world, now the rest of it is that chance. And so if we control all of the controllables, life is worth taking that chance, I think. Um, it's it's why you got this surgery, it's it's why you work so hard to get back. Um, but it is when it does happen, emotionally, it's tough. And my feeling is the solution is not to feel less, it's to continue to feel the pain if it happens, because that pain that I feel is fueled to just keep learning. This field is gonna keep evolving, we're gonna keep getting new research. And I had to make a decision that this is my life's purpose, this is my fuel. If I don't show up, no one else will in this way for the people that I serve. And that's how I've dealt with it. So that was that was a lot. I know. Um it hurts to not be successful every time, and it's never gonna not hurt.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

No. Uh there's a passage from a book. The book I've never read, but I saw a dramatic reading of this passage, and it was about how it's insane for us to love because if we think about it, we're losing everything and everyone we love all the time. And the writer goes on to talk about the just the insanity of opening yourself up to feeling this attachment and the highs of love, knowing that to love and be open to that is to accept the risk of losing it. Or the inevitability of losing some of those things. And the writer finishes the passage by saying, But the pain means that I got to feel it. It being love. Whether that's just a little bit, you know, too far afield, uh, that's what came to mind as you were talking about the risk being worth it. And the answer is not to not to feel less, because this stuff matters. And you've said it in as many words of you clearly care about your people. You care about the the ACLers and their lives, not simply their knees, their range of motion, their function, but how that fits into their life and their identity. And the solution is not to minimize that, but to, if anything, keep leaning into it. Use that as fuel to learn and be better as much as you can. And at at the core of it is the if not me, then who? Do you agree?

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Uh well stated. I I agree completely. Um, and that's why I have made this my life's work. Um, to to continuously grow, evolve, and get better at it. And even if you're someone listening that isn't, you're not only working with the ACL population. I think this is true for anyone that you're serving. It just feels higher stakes with ACL. Because it's a clear, like, yes, no. Like, did we do it? Did we not? Um, and that can be a hard thing to face. So I think it's worth it. I hope that you think it's worth it too, because people really need you.

SPEAKER_00 56:43

Absolutely. So we know what you would do if and when we put you in full control of PT in the United States, pending finding that magic lamp, which wheels in motion already. Um if if you could download one additional thing into the mind of we'll get to clinicians, but into the mind of ACLers. Knowing that there's a whole spectrum of places in the journey and it's gonna be different for everybody. But if there's one thing that you could tell them and put in their brain, burn it in there forever, what would that be?

SPEAKER_01 57:27

Work with K Set. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Helios ACL project.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

Uh this journey is going to challenge you in ways that you are not prepared for and you did not expect. When that time inevitably comes where you are struggling, please do a couple things for me. One, be kind to yourself. Whether this is your first recovery, your second recovery, it's okay if it's hard and you're struggling. I would want them to find a PT, whether it is me or someone else that is well versed in this. This is such a unique recovery. We can't just treat it like any only rehab. And you need someone that not only understands that, but gets you. If you are able to do those two things, you're gonna have a heck of an easier time than someone that doesn't do those two things. So those would be my pieces of advice.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Love it. We're just switching frequencies, and now you get to download one additional thing into the minds of clinicians on top of the gems and the bombs that you've already dropped. What's the additional thing?

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Ooh, please test. Please test in a way that is not manual muscle test. I know you guys probably know this, but having testing, having peak week data, however, you want to do it to show someone where they're at helps them not feel lost. And not feeling lost is how they will stay engaged and actually make a lot more progress and believe in your process and believe that they can get better. Testing, I think, is a potent motivator, right? So that's strength testing, functional testing, however, whatever equipment you have, there's a way to actually, you know, have a testing-informed ACR recovery. Um and if you do those things, you're already doing better than 90% of what is out there. I want to say that's not the number, but it might be the number.

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the number. There you go. Speaking of testing, uh, you are building a dope ass network of testing people. What's that about?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Okay, so I I can never start with just telling you. Here's a story for you. So I failed one of the athletes that I served. This is not something that I saw coming. She came to me as what I'm gonna lovingly term a knee rescue case when things go wrong and we gotta get them back on track. For months, she grinded in the gym, her knee was reactive, we made a tweak, she finally got to a place where I said, you can tolerate testing. I sent her to a clinic that seemed like it was perfect on paper. They had force plates, they had, you know, the the full kit and caboodle. But what they didn't have, unbeknownst to me, was a knowledge of how to test ACLRs. So they put her through nine tests, five of which were jump tests. She hadn't even been jumping yet. Um, and it really gave her a pretty gnarly setback. I felt like I had truly failed. She trusted me, and I was just one more failure in the system. Now, in the end, we did get her back on track, but it exposed something that I need to fix, and I need to build something to help no a to ensure no other ACLer runs into this. So I am building a testing network, which is what I'm gonna call an elite group of people who are passionate and work with ACL athletes so that they can find you and get access to people who actually know what they're doing, so that even if they, let's say, have to go to their not so great, you know, in-network PT or someone that's a little less versed in ACL care, they still have these glimpses of light where they can actually go and get tested and get clarity and work with someone that knows what they're doing. So I am building a testing network where athletes in my program and anyone in the world can look up who's around them, what equipment they have available. Um, hopefully a little bio. We're working on the bio part. Right now it's just testing locations. Um, and the goal is that any ACLer that needs or wants testing has a way to find you. Because currently there's no way to Google that. And I know that because I've been trying to find the remote athletes I work with testing centers. So that is the game plan, and my hope is that this continues to evolve and becomes a really elite community of people who are passionate about making sure people's ACL recoveries go right. So that's the Helios ACL testing network, which I'm in the process of building now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

Man. You you already said that you're making you've made serving ACL is your life's work. And uh, if this isn't a perfect example of a meaningful step forward, certainly for the Helios athletes that you you work with, but also the fact that this will be open to anybody else. And damn if it's not needed, that's really awesome. Um, you're building it. Is this is this a live thing? People can check it out, or is this a stay tuned because you'll let them know kind of feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

The beta is live. I will put the link on my page so you can go check it out. Right now it's a map with some information. This is going to continue to evolve. So if you are a clinician who's in to help with this mission and actually change some freaking lives, DM me on Instagram. Right now, that's that's the best way to do it, and we'll add your information and I'll add you to the map so that people can find you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

Love it. Love it. On that note, uh, Instagram, make all the plugs, Kate. Whether it's a clinician who wants to be part of the testing network, somebody who wants to learn how to get better so they can serve ACLers better, or they're an ACL or themselves themselves who wants some help. Where are they looking?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

You can find me on Instagram at Helios ACL Project. You can find me on TikTok, Helios ACL Project. I kept it real simple for you guys. Um I have a YouTube channel that I'm not posting on a whole bunch right now, but I'm gonna start posting more. So check that out too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:34

Yes. Also, YouTube is Helios ACL project.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:37

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

Um seriously, if you have questions, like DM me. I'm fairly friendly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

So fairly, fairly.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

Fairly, fairly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Uh Kate, this is awesome. Uh thank you for the time. We you and I both knew we'd have a good time, you know, much like we we did in Miami as we got to to chit-chat over a meal. And not only did we get to spend time here, but I really think this conversation is gonna find people where they need to be found. Whether they are dealing with their own journey through identity, loss, injury, illness, whatever that might be. Uh or just as they're trying to do the best they can by their clients, by their family, by their people, um, this is gonna help people feel and know that they're not alone. So, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

You're welcome, man. Thank you so much for having me. Come chat, guys. I want to meet Jeff.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:41

Do it. Go ahead, uh, Kate up, and we will be back. And we'll be back in the next episode. Appreciate every single one of you who listened. And remember that you're not done yet. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of Unbreakable with me, your host, Jared Maynard. If you found what we talked about today to be useful, if it served you, please consider leaving a five-star review wherever you get your podcasts. Hit that follow or subscribe button to keep up with the show. And if you are a coach or clinician, if you're running on empty, you're giving everything to everybody else, you are exactly who I built Unbreakable Strength to serve. The link to Book A Call with Me is in the show notes. I'd love to hear where you are and see how we can help you get where you want to go. Go check that link out in the show notes, as well as the links to a few other goodies. You can follow me on socials, and until next time, my friend, you're not done yet.