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Injustice Unspoken
Injustice Unspoken Podcast where silenced crime victims voices are heard
Injustice Unspoken
My sister's keeper-From Green River Killer to Crime Victim Advocate
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Jenny Graham, member of the Washington State House of Representatives, representing the 6th Legislative District talks about her sister being a victim of the Green River Killer led to her fight for crime victims rights.
Hello, I'm Betty Frizel. I am a former chief of police, certified human trafficking investigator, certified criminal profiler with over 30 years of investigative experience.
SPEAKER_04I'm Christine Moreland. I'm the founder and proud executive director of an organization called The More We Love. We create pathways out of homelessness, addiction, human trafficking, and domestic violence.
SPEAKER_00The Injustice Unspoken podcast where the silenced voice of crime victims are heard. I'm so excited about this guest. This is someone who I feel is a kindred spirit of mine. It's Jenny Graham. She's the sixth state Washington State Sixth District Representative. She's a former business owner, veteran. Thank you for your service. Wife, mother, and victims advocate. She's a survivor of abuse herself, and her sister was a victim of the Green River Killer. Jenny began to question why the law was not adequately protecting victims and the set to change the law in 2011. She began working with legislatures, prosecutors, law enforcement, and other survivors to challenge and change the unfair statute of limitations law. Her effort culminated in legislation being signed by Governor Inslee in 2014. She's a personal hero of mine, and I I just can't wait to talk to her. I am so excited. As anyone knows, that I myself, my sister, I got in my law enforcement career because my sister disappeared when I was 12, and that was my first missing person's case. So, Jenny, you and I have a lot to talk about. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. You are welcome. It is absolutely an honor as the ranking member for the community safety committee uh to be able to talk about these important issues with you today.
SPEAKER_04There you go. And yeah, and our our real focus is around uh the human trafficking component. I uh Jenny, you know that the FIFA World Cup is coming, which is what really promoted uh Betty and I to want to dive into this conversation, but specifically bring light to uh the victims of human trafficking, uh, talk about some of the policies around it, uh, what can we do as communities? And uh Jenny and I were introduced actually through Dave Rikert, who uh we just spoke with. And I, as Betty, just sit in awe of you, the fact that you took something so personal and have driven it forward with initiatives and policy work. So uh Jenny, welcome to our podcast today. Uh, maybe you can uh start with a little bit of your why for being in this space.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, my why. Uh you'd have to picture me running as far as the other direction as a person could possibly get. This definitely was not on my radar as far as something that I thought I would ever see me fulfilling um this role. Um, but it it's one of those things that um I had no control over. This landed in my lap, and I had an opportunity to either accept a calling, to do something, to try to change some of the things that I um became aware of. And and part of that was when Debbie was murdered, she was being sex trafficked when she was murdered, and I'd made a cold call one day to Detective Jensen to ask, since they had solved my sister's case. Um, they'd caught the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgway. Yeah, um, I'd asked if I could come in and go through her files because I had a lot of questions as a sister. Where was she? So many questions that I didn't have answers for. And they allowed me to come in and take a look at those files. And it was there that I started to recognize that there were people that had called in um and reported abuse that had been happening. Um and it was also then that I learned about the statute of limitations. So as a child, as a victim, you you're not aware of that kind of stuff. And once I did become aware that at that point you had a year to report the abuse in most cases. And if you didn't, that's too bad, you know. You know, the perpetrator basically got to get out of jail card free. Um, and I thought that was unfair. It it dawned on me it's not hard to keep a child quiet for a year if you threaten to kill them or their loved ones or manipulate them through uh, you know, what is uh unhealthy and sick love. Um and I just felt that it was unfair if they were able to do that, that they were able to hide behind an unfair timeline.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I, as a survivor of um child sexual abuse myself, um, recognized that that was part of the reason that Debbie was out um in the path of Gary Ridgeway to begin with, because she wasn't safe at home. Right. So she was like so many other victims, you know, out there looking for a safe place, and she found a serial killer instead.
SPEAKER_04We were actually talking about that, how many, uh how so many young girls, you know, run away and become vulnerable to this, but why, you know, the why behind why are they running away, and that you're speaking uh that into light and your sister being vulnerable to that, you know. I think um that's what David was talking about. And you just brought up your sister. Was that something that you had experienced with where your sister was, you know, running away from circumstances in her own home? Um, how do we, Jenny, uh how do we provide a safe place for the kids, you know, through the policy? And to your point, you dove in because of a statue of limitations. And and might I ask, how old were you when you looked at that and and got inspired to get going in the work?
SPEAKER_02I was somewhere around 42. I think I was 38 when Ridgway was originally sentenced. Um, and I was a young, you know, younger mother myself. Yeah. And an auntie, and you know, it just wasn't sitting right with me that something wasn't being done to correct what was so clearly uh an imbalance in our justice system. And it didn't matter that we had proof in those files that the abuse had been happening. And, you know, I also tried to go the route um the civil uh for civil relief. But what I ended up finding there was despite the fact that I had overwhelming evidence that the abuse happened, what I was told was that uh there wasn't enough money involved because our perpetrator wasn't independently wealthy and not overly insured. So I said, well, keep money. I don't want any of the money. I want this on record that this happened and wanted something to try to pay other kids to come across his path. And and I was right to do that. That's part of the reason why I did the uh my uncle is the Green River Serial Killer um uh documentary that I did was this was his family, and I had a lot of questions about how you know this took place. And it just like the more rocks that I overturned, the more questions that I ended up having, and the more information that I received saying, okay, I'm on the right track. Something has to be done to change this law. It's wrong.
SPEAKER_04Can you talk a little bit more about that documentary that you just mentioned?
SPEAKER_02Um, yes, this that's one of several that I've done. Um, there's another one that I'm currently working on um regarding Kenneth Bianchi, um, the hillside strangler. So he was nearly almost released in Washington State. And if you look at the the crimes that these particular individuals are doing, they are so egregious, so violent, so absolutely violent. So violent, so violent. Um that we are actually living in a time where it doesn't matter what was said in court, it doesn't matter if these individuals refuse to go through any training, refuse to take any responsibility whatsoever. We have a mindset at the state legislature that prioritizes um the criminals over the victims. They have all the rights, they have all the resources, and you know, and several times in in the committee as the ranking, as the ranking member, um, I have had energy when the crime victims were being um shamed, silenced, or censored in the people's house, which was absolutely unacceptable. Um, and it was not going to happen on my watch.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, get into that a little bit more, Jenny, about what what's coming with the the laws. And now that you're there and you see them being made, what what do you see as a major problem for our vulnerable populations, uh, such as what your sister was?
SPEAKER_02Well, the problem is they're absolutely being exploited. Um, they are being shamed if they come forward to say something because what the current attitude is, and this did happen in committee, where those of us that believe in accountability and restitution, when you decide to commit a crime against you know another individual, um they were actually you know being told no, you do not believe in um accountability or restitution. You um do not believe in second chances, and you're racist. I mean, I again this is the people's house. Um, we should be expecting everybody the opportunity to be able to speak without verbally, you know, attacking other peoples. And there are rules in the in these standing committees for what is acceptable and what's not, but those rules, just like the crime victims, um uh there's a a crime victims bill of rights in Washington state that is not being upheld and it's not being respected. And we see it again so clear at the people's house to the point where I was actually bringing in crime victims to the committee room. I couldn't do it during committee time, but afterwards I would access that area and bring the victims in to say what they were gonna say because they're often limited or they don't get to speak at all.
SPEAKER_01That's right.
SPEAKER_02And in the meantime, the so-called experts uh get all the time in the world to speak. There's no time limit for them. It eats up a lot of committee time and it shuts down the important conversations that we have because it's during that time that we're supposed to be looking at the legislation and trying to see is it feasible? Are there problems with it? Is there something we can correct during the process? And that is number one, a huge problem. Number two, oftentimes when these bills are coming up, we don't get uh prior notice per se uh about the bill. We don't have much of a chance to talk with the prime sponsors to get information, to try to figure out, you know, well, what is the reason that they've brought this uh policy forward? And have they really talked to all of the stakeholders? That part. I literally wish that I had a dime for every time I have talked to somebody giving testimony regarding one of these bills, and asked how many crime victims did you reach out to and talk to and include in this policy?
SPEAKER_04Well, and that's a really good point, Jenny.
SPEAKER_02Because of the time with the answer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's a great point. Uh, the fact that you even said all of the stakeholders. I think so often when um politicians are stepping in that space or people who are drafting those bills are looking at it from a one-sided lens or not from the hands and feet aspect or directly related to the actual work that needs to get done. And the fact that you consider all stakeholders are so important, but the victims themselves and their voices are even more important. I want to ask you a question, and maybe it's one that you can't answer, but I kind of have a feeling that you might, in order to protect the most vulnerable uh women like your sister, especially currently in our state of affairs right now, what is the one bill that you would like to see passed, maybe one that you've worked on or one that you would uh want to protect this space, women from being exploited, trafficked, um murdered?
SPEAKER_02The if I had to just pick one bill, if we're gonna try to make any sort of headway when it comes to protecting our uh loved ones, and again, to me, it doesn't matter what political party somebody belongs to or they don't. These are our loved ones. You know, they're our community members, they're our families, and everybody should be coming together to say, look, if you're uh into sex trafficking, drugs, any of that kind of stuff, and you decide that you want to come to Spokane or Washington State or anywhere in Washington to um manipulate and basically sell our loved ones into slavery, it is modern-day slavery, absolutely is what it is. Yeah, uh, you don't want to come to Spokane, you don't want to come to Washington State because we're gonna throw the book at you, but that's not what's happening right now. So if we were gonna do anything, I would say to do something to make the legislature do a look back at any of the policies that have been put forward to deal with human sex trafficking right now, to see how do is that policy working? Is it doing what it was meant to do?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And if it's not, then we either need to see how it can be changed, or we need to repeal it, get rid of it, and put something else in place that actually does hold the traffickers and the gangs and the cartels um accountable because right now they don't have any worry in this state. It's it is really disgusting. I I uh remembered and I did a little bit of a look back. Um Kathy McMorris Rogers in uh 2014 um came out um talking about the human sex trafficking driven on computers. This is through the tech companies, and Washington State specifically Spokane turned up as number one for people searching to have sex with children via computer terabytes.
SPEAKER_01Unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02And I remember our sheriff talking about it, Sheriff Ozzy, um, at the time was really, really a frightening scenario. Um and it's come up several times, and there's bills that have been proposed in the legislature, but they die.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02They don't get they either don't get hearings or they die in the process. And the bottom line is we do have a majority that can pass any bill they decide to pass or stop any bill they decide to stop. So I am 100% placing that on their shoulders and at their feet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, because that's the only way that this is going to change, is there has to start being accountability.
SPEAKER_04Well, and the traffickers are always 10 steps ahead of us.
SPEAKER_00They're always trying to find a different way. And and uh, Jenny, coming from a law enforcement standpoint of that um, you know, we're in a policing crisis anyway. We don't have enough police officers, and then to have good qualified people out there that have laws that they can't police. That's right. That it's very very disheartening, and there's nothing worse than than letting someone like that back out on the street when you can't you've done as much as you can.
SPEAKER_02Right. So most people don't have a grasp for why we're in this position. Um, we have part of the problem being the defund the police fiasco, which has absolutely put Washington State dead last. If you need help and you pick up the phone to call 911, they can't send officers they do not have, and they have to find you first. Um, it is a real problem when they have to pull officers off of going to answer 911 um calls um because there's uh you know, and they have to prioritize these calls. So they get pulled off of doing detective work. Yes, uh because we have the 911 calls. Yeah. So they're trying to actively deal with that, but then we don't have the follow-up with the detective work um that is happening.
SPEAKER_04I was just gonna say they don't have the bandwidth to even carry a case all the way through because they're constantly having to respond to the next with the with the lack of um adequate policing. This brings me back to the conversation around the World Cup and FIFA. And we were interviewing one of the detectives around a campaign that we want to do um to deter the buying. And in the office, I said, you know, what are we gonna do in advance of this? And he said, Christine, the prioritization of the 911 calls will not be for human trafficking during FIFA World Cup, right? It's terrorism and this. And so for me, hearing something like that, working in direct service for the victims of human trafficking, that's incredibly disheartening. Knowing that there's going to be a young woman trafficked by an international buyer who will be behind a closed door experiencing violence if she makes a call to 911, unless she, and this is his words, not mine, unless she's being choked out, strangled, or otherwise attempted to be murdered, they're probably not coming to that call. And we are bringing hundreds, if not thousands, of young women forward for FIFA World Cup through exploitation to be trafficked during that time. What do we do?
SPEAKER_02And there's so there's another leg of the table that's extremely important. Um I I am so grateful that the people of my district trusted me um to represent them and to fight for um these important issues. There you go. One of the things that I discovered in this education is our courts. We are one of five states that does not fully fund our courts. Yeah. And of those five states, Washington state is dead last for funding our courts. That's scary. So does that, I mean, this is a core tenet of government that should be funded before anything else, you know, that it would be a wish or a want, um, you know, is funded. And it's not a priority, it needs to be a priority. We have the Washington State Supreme Court who just now cut the defense attorney's caseloads down um to a third. So if one of these traffickers does get arrested, if they don't get a defense attorney assigned to them within a short period of time and they've lessened the amount of time that the prosecutors have to be able to bring these um charges, they're walking scot-free. Yeah, it shouldn't be so frustrating.
SPEAKER_04Uh just I walked alongside a young woman in a case where she had been trafficked by multiple states. The trafficker brought her into actually South King County, um, dropped her on the side of um First Avenue down there, uh strangled, badly hurt. And you know, he he spent a couple months and he was a known trafficker, he had a previous history. Um, there was all the evidence in the world, and it's kind of an oops. And you know, the this the hard part for me is is what the victim says afterwards. What was the point in me coming forward and hearing her? Say that. Like, what was the point? Why did I talk anyway? My life is going to be worse now because I spoke up. And we aren't we're not protecting them in any way in the criminal justice system to be able to keep these young women safe. I go to them and say, you know, are you ready to testify against your trafficker? And their answer is always going to be most of the time, no, because why? Because why, Christine? Why?
SPEAKER_02Right. And I'm gonna again interject with lived experience that we've had testimony in committee about these crimes. And there's only three of us, Republicans, that are on that committee to begin with. But when you look at this testimony that excuse me, was happening, um, a lot of times you see reps that are looking down at their computer. There's no emotion, there's none. Um because they're they're tuning out. This is that is a hard committee. The stuff that we hear is really difficult. And it's made even worse when you're somebody that's like in my shoes who is trying to bring the crime victim's voice forward because they literally do not have any representation. Um, prosecutors represent the interest of the state, not the crime victims. So crime victims are the only ones that don't choose to be in the situation, and they're the only ones that have no legal representation, their rights are not being respected, and there's oftentimes plea deals that you know are being made where people get out of jail earlier. Uh, I was just talking with somebody that that's happening to and they didn't get notified. But again, if the prosecutors' um offices don't have the staff to do what it is they need to do, so defense attorneys were funded, but not prosecutors. And the process, my prosecutor, when it came to some of these, especially felony charges, he was told stop filing the felony charges. So certainly not the answer.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's certainly not the answer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, don't do anything about the crime. That's the literal message that they're getting. And it doesn't take much for the average person uh to look up the budgets um that we just had. You could all you have to do is look at the line items that are being funded, and it's really easy to see where the priorities are. Yeah, Washington State is pulling in more money now than we ever have, um, but the money is not going where it should be going.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_02It is going in opposite ways that are only growing the problem here. Um, and there's always gonna be victims and their loved ones that are on the other end of it, destroyed lives, um, or you have dead victims. Um and it doesn't have necessarily be that they died from the actual trafficking, the trauma from it. The trauma once if they do get away away from it, then they're dealing with what happened for them to get there to begin with, and there's no help. No, yeah, there's no help, there's no resources. Well, a lot of times they'll die from drug overdose or suicide, or you know, it's soul murder in the most extreme sense that there is.
SPEAKER_00It it literally kills a person's soul. Well, you know, Jenny, you and I um our sisters were both voiceless, you know. My uh, and you have to have that voice for the voiceless, you know, and but some people don't. And by not allowing crime victims to have that voice, that's the most empowering thing you can do for a crime victim. They didn't ask to be a crime victim. They didn't ask to be put in that situation, and and some people just don't have a sister like you and I, you know, they they just they and for them not to have their voice be heard and when they are given the opportunity, that's so empowering to them. I've seen that in law enforcement. I've I've seen my sex crimes victims get to do the victim impact statements and in court, and that is sometimes a turning point for them in their healing.
SPEAKER_02I agree. Uh, what I've also seen in the legislature, uh, and again, I have given impact statements, so I get it. I would like to see more because it's one thing for a victim or a loved one to give an impact statement. That to me is the same thing that goes on in the legislature where they're just checking off a box that they heard from the victim or heard from the community when nothing changes. So I I again have seen this on the level, and then I even had um a judge that testified when they were trying to change it so that a judge can drop misdemeanors. So, say there's a sex crime that happens and it gets dropped down from a felony to a misdemeanor. The judge can then at that point just decide to dismiss it. And he literally was saying we don't need to include the crime victims because it's too traumatic for them. And that adds even more trauma.
SPEAKER_00That adds more trauma. You're getting me upset, Jenny. You're getting me upset.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, oh, I'm gonna tell you what. The chair and I absolutely had words, you know, as and they went on the lines of who do you think you are? Yeah, telling these crime victims that it's too traumatic for them to be involved. That's not your decision to make. No, they have to be able to determine what their path of healing is, what that looks like. But for you to say that they don't that they can't be included because it's too traumatic, I think was absolutely that removes their power.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that removes their power. That is just like they're getting re-victimized by the system that's supposed to be helping them.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't, it does not. Now, there are some people like me who find strength. Okay, uh, you can't change what happened, you can't, but you can decide to move forward from there, which is what I've done. And um it's been hard. It is not easy work at all to try to do this. And and I would say that during these committee hearings, a lot of times seeing what was happening, understanding the legislation, hearing what the conversation was was also re-traumatizing for me.
SPEAKER_01I bet.
SPEAKER_02Um, because I'm seeing the injustice play out over and over and over again. So, and of course the passion is gonna come out.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02Of course, people are gonna see me more, you know, uh react more strongly.
SPEAKER_04But if they don't know your why, they would look at it differently. That's the thing. I think so often we stand in this space where it's just the moment, but we never reflect back under the underlying why behind this. And your determination to change the policies and these bills isn't just for your sister or from that, but it's it's for all of the sisters, the mothers, right? And I think they sometimes look at this as Jenny Graham, she's just challenging this space to challenge this space, but your why is so deeply embedded in the work that you do, and that's the beautiful part about it because there's two different ways you can always take this, right? And to your point earlier, you can run from it and go the completely other direction, or you can run to it. And Jenny, that's why I think Betty and I sit here in such awe of you because you've ran to it, and and running to it has created this space where people have quite frankly cut you down, made really terrible comments in the work that you're doing and all of that. And and I say to them, where have you been in this space? You know, what did you experience that gives you that powerful why behind why Jenny stands here today, right? Challenge them back in that. And I and I just I I I say that with conviction because Jenny, you told me recently, you know, that you've been in this work for what is it? It's been eight years now that you've been you've been working, and I I want to honor that. And I want to ask you what's next for you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've been elected for eight years. Um, I actually started the work to change the child sexual assault statutes of limitations in 2011. Wow, yeah. Um, and successfully we did change it. Uh I didn't I did I wasn't able during that time to me to eliminate the statute of limitations, but we did get it up to age 30 at that point, and then there was another representative that kept that fight going, and so there was more work done on that um to allow justice because when you have proof, it shouldn't matter how long ago it was. That if if it's ironclad proof, like what happened in our case, there shouldn't be a lie uh statute of limitations because in my case, I didn't know that that was in those files because it was a death investigation. I didn't have access to those files. So I didn't know that that information was there. Um and I I do think that when it when it comes to this particular issue, it it should take all of us, you know, again saying that even animals protect their young.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So this is really important, protecting children, allowing them to be children, I agree, and experiencing things, you know, these kids are in current status quo in Washington State, are absolutely being bombarded with things that kids shouldn't be exposed to. Absolutely. No wonder we have a problem with so many depressed kids.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and then social media comes into the mix and it even becomes more exploitive in so many ways. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. So you have social media. Um, and I do believe that it was it Meta that just somebody ended up just getting a lawsuit was successful against them for the uh CSAM on on um the internet where sexual exploitation was happening and they didn't intervene.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02That was something that I know Kathy McMorris Rogers in Spokane was really working um to to hold um tech companies accountable because right now under section 230, um, they get protections just like news media also gets protections. And I'm gonna I'm gonna throw mainstream media in there also, because I again have a personal experience with that, innocently, yeah, innocently talking about the uh human sex trafficking happening, right? Because it personally affected our family. We ended up getting the detective coming to the door saying, You're never gonna see your loved one again. And it's not something that I wanted to have happen in my district. So my thinking was, can we do something to get conversation going? That's right about human trafficking, yeah, right? That people thought it was just putting somebody in a car and moving them from one place to another. They didn't fully understand what is human trafficking. So if you don't know what it is, you're not gonna see what the red flags are happening right in front of you because it happens in broad daylight all the time. Right. Um, so I was, you know, I did innocently put something out on Facebook um talking, trying to draw attention to the issue. And there was a reporter, Daniel Walters, who printed a story um accusing me of spreading conspiracy theories, right? Uh, this was after talking to him for an hour. No question was off limits. Everything was answered honestly, it was recorded. I didn't care. Yeah, because we need to talk about what this looks like to keep our our family members and loved ones safe. That's right, right?
SPEAKER_04Sometimes it's too uncomfortable for particular people to hear the truth behind it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is tough because I dealt with the murder part of it, but I hadn't dealt with this the human sex trafficking part of it. So he put the he put the story out alleging conspiracy theories, leaving our actual lived experience, the fact that Debbie was being sex trafficked when she was murdered, and um the text messages that we had going back and forth where he was downplaying human trafficking happening in Spokane. And this is even though we are talking about the sex trafficking, the computer terabytes for people that are searching to have sex with kids.
SPEAKER_04People say it all the time that there's no trafficking in the encampments, that this isn't happening. I'm like, there's trafficking. If there's homelessness, there's trafficking, if there's drugs, there's trafficking. And to your point, Jenny, it we're at an all-time high of human slavery in our country, right? And so there was a study that Bill's put out.
SPEAKER_02You know, when we are looking at trying to fix this, though, when you have somebody like me that has credibility on the issue, right? Yeah, so you know, I spoke about something that, you know, was painful. I I got put under the spotlight, under a microscope dealing with this, which wasn't fun. It was dropped in my lap. Um, and I did make that reporter a promise that I wouldn't let him forget this, that he was downplaying human trafficking. So the news decided to spin it, you know, that I was threatening um a reporter. I didn't say I'm gonna come beat you up or I'm gonna do no. No, I said I'm not gonna let you forget this. Um, and I don't think that we should. No, I think people in general should be holding the news media accountable, especially the mainstream news, because they play a role. I mean, they did it to me again. Yeah, uh, when I announced that I wasn't going to run again um for re-election because I got another path. There's more than one way to drive change, and I have an opportunity that I'm gonna take. But when the story came out, it was the link in there, she threatened a reporter, but she didn't talk about the fact that the reporter lied when he did the story. He was downplaying human trafficking, right? And when he released the story, he did it at the time of my sister's murder. Yeah, so it was deliberately meant to be cruel. Wow, and I reacted as a human.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, it's a kind of getting back to that. My uh when my sister disappeared in 1982, her and her two kids, we uh she disappeared in California, we lived in Missouri, we weren't even allowed to do a police report. So there they weren't even reported missing for years. And uh had they allowed my mom to do a police report, they would have known that my nephew was actually left in a park while my sister and her daughter were were taken out of the country. So um I don't know when Debbie, you know, when her case exactly happened, I know it's probably in those the 80s, 90s time. Do you feel that uh we're de-evolving uh how we act towards uh the survivors or the victims uh as they're being trafficked? Because it seems like now that um we should know better and we're not doing better. Do you feel that way?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I look at the scenario that was happening um with Debbie, uh, and they didn't have the internet, right? You know, they they didn't have that at the time. So if somebody wanted to pick up a uh prostitute, Debbie was actually in an endangered child. Uh she was barely 15 years old. She wasn't even two weeks 15 years old when he murdered her. Um, but you know, she had had other things happen. She was picked up by a serial rapist, Charles Clinton Clark. Um and I saw the pictures of her where she for to identify who the person was, I saw her in the group of the other victims, and she looked like a kid, like a baby. Because she was a kid. That's right. Yeah, she was a teenager that should have been in junior high school. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um, and not see something, say something, but do something. Do something of the intervention.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because you know, I I just look at it, it's it's you can we can talk about it. They passed uh a bill to put notifications in the airports, and and I don't remember if the one for truck stops passed or not, saying that if you're being trafficked, let somebody know, which is all fine and good, sure, but when we can't talk about the in talk about the issue, we are villainized when we do talk about the issue, that's right, whether you're the victim or you're somebody fighting, you know, to try to stop that from happening. If we can't even talk about the issue, we're certainly not going to fix it. That's right. And then when those tools are available for people to go online and secretly set stuff up, yeah. Um, you know, I think when do we as a society start to ask what is driving that? You know, and and I've thought about this being a mother and an auntie, and now a grandmother myself, is where does the responsibility lie with families to talk with their children early about trafficking?
SPEAKER_04But so much of it, to your point, is online. Um I just had another mother reach out to me last night. Actually, a detective sent me a question hey, can you speak with a young mother? Her mother, uh, the mother's uh her children, her child was being trafficked out of what is now being called a bop house. So there's new houses that are popping up throughout the greater Seattle area called BOP houses. And they are houses where young girls are um doing only fans, but under the coercion of men who are taking a percentage of the funds and then making them do unthinkable acts and begin to, you know, very violent and such. And so these moms are now reaching out to us as the direct service providers and saying, How do I help my child? What do I do? How did I not see this? She was just on Instagram. They came through the Instagram, it came through the schools, right? And so to your point, we need prevention, we need conversation because there's uh there's too many ways for them to get to our children, right? There's too many avenues for them to get to it, and we we don't have all eyes on it like we we should. And I have, you know, another mother who I've been working closely with, her 18-year-old daughter, is is being trafficked, and it is through OnlyFans. And yet her daughter feels like, I'm okay, I'm safe, you know, I'm 18, I'm making this decision, but we all know that that's not the case. And to educate them on what could happen and will happen, you know, down the road in that space. It's terrifying. We we have to protect our children.
SPEAKER_02Well, and we're also dealing with um bills like Senate Bill 5312, which is a net nanny bill involving fictitious minors. This is a bill that's come up a couple of times where we have the net nanny stinks again, where people are online wanting to have sex with kids, yeah, and they set something up where they fully expect to have sex with a child. That's right. They show up, they and um the police are there. So this bill would uh basically eliminate the net nanny stinks because they're saying the person showed up, but they didn't actually have sex with the child, therefore there's no intent was there.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. For a crime to be committed, you have to have men's ray and access ray. And uh the men's ray is there, the criminal mind was there. I mean, I don't understand.
SPEAKER_04Well, and I was just part of one of those operations recently where you know ads were put up and we were for young girls to be purchased, and we did um, you know, there were arrests that were made that day, and and several arrests for purchasing uh young girls under the ages of 14 and 13 in this greater Seattle area. Those are people's children, right? And even though they were decoy ads, thank God they were decoy ads, the intent was there to your point. And if that bill came into fruition, that means that operation couldn't take place, is what you're saying to us. And that's scary to me because we have to take preventative measures because these traffickers are 10 steps ahead of us. And so if we're not being preventative, then what are we doing in the first place?
SPEAKER_00What are we because if the intent is there, this is what I don't understand about that. If the intent is there, they're gonna act upon that. That urge is there. Okay, we know that urge is there. I mean, people um, you know, if you go back and you look at our serial killers and they talk about the urge. Is there if the urge is there and the intent is there, that's the men's ray. So that is absolutely ridiculous. It's infuriating.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think what was also missing during um the debate on that bill a few different times is I personally brought up look, you have pedophiles, sex offenders that want to have sex with children. They know exactly what they're doing. Um and they, you know, they are sneaky about it. Um, I think if laws were much stricter and and there was actual accountability, yes, where, you know, if you know, and and again, I just I don't see that there is any excuse for it. There are um other ways that these people can hook up with willing adults, you know, to not involve the kids. So uh what they were not paying attention to is what these particular individuals engage in, whether it is pornography or the exploitation of kids online, they're they're practicing, they're fantasizing, right? And then they decide to take the next step, you know, to actually carry it out. That is what's not being recognized in the legislature. There is this um unhealthy uh uh thought that they're not willing to understand that there are some people that do things that are stupid and uh they can't are capable of learning a lesson and not ever doing anything like that again.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And then there are the others that are human predators, they are not gonna change. They like doing what it is they're doing, and they refuse to deal with that group of people.
SPEAKER_00Well, and the lack of law empowers those type of behaviors. You can't enforce something that's not there. You don't have any teeth in the game if you if you don't have the enforcement behind that. Once you do do that, I mean, and Yeah, and there's no intervention for the behavior. For uh sex offenders is so high. It it is it you know, they just keeps repeating and keeps repeating, and it's like a hamster wheel. And we're just letting these people back out, and now online we're just allowing them to be in the in the shadows again. If and now if we can't do anything, where do we go? Because if they've got the intent enough to get on a computer and s and to proposition someone, and now you're gonna take that point away from law enforcement? Come on.
SPEAKER_04Hey, Jenny, I've got a question for you. You were talking about the stakeholders in all of this, and and I want to talk about the stakeholders in the exploitation space of all of this. And there's a lot of stakeholders, and specifically a lot of stakeholders even kind of jumping in even more around the World Cup, and that is the Uber drivers, the Airbnb owners, the hotels who are otherwise might know that this is going on. They may know that they are transporting a young girl who is otherwise maybe going to a date. They may be an Airbnb that is starting to recognize some consistent patterns around it. You know, they may be a hotel that is opening the back door at night and allowing the traffickers in. What would you say to those stakeholders, right, in this trafficking space that are maybe not directly trafficking the girl, but indirectly are? What would you say to them? And what policy could we bring forward in our state in the state of Washington to prevent the Airbnbs, the Ubers, and the hotels from contributing to the space?
SPEAKER_02Well, first of all, I think education um is important, just like I was talking about. Um, what does sex trafficking look like? How do you recognize it? So somebody could be a driver, they could be working in a hotel or something. And these are the people that you want to get to, right? But again, I talked about this happening in broad daylight in right in front of people. If they don't recognize what the signs are, then they're not going to be able to report it. So if there was some sort of training that they had to go through, great, and because of the line of work that they do, just like police officers have to go through training and other people have to go through training in the job they do, um, then they can't say, Well, they didn't know. They can't say, Well, I was unaware. No, you went through training, you were aware, and you know, we talk about humanity and we talk about compassion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, we're talking about selling other human beings. That's right. That's what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_04The training needs to be mandated in those spaces, then. You know, you're going to be a hotel operator, we're mandating this, and we're mandating it for your employees, and also making you mandated reporters, right? To see something, say something, now do something piece of it. I, you know, and and I think if we can get people to empower the training, there's there's incredible organizations out there doing the training, like best and and others, but um, that's that's a really good point. The training, the prevention piece of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Well, and I would hope, I mean, I would seriously uh hope that people would do that just because it's the right thing to do. We don't know. There's a there is right, there is wrong, and and children they can't protect themselves, they don't have the life skills that adults do, they don't have the resources, they don't necessarily um know how to deal with a master manipulator.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and especially you get a child that was like your sister um that had her sexual boundaries askewed at a young age. And you know that that adds to the victimology of what happens with our victims is that um what what boundaries have been crossed and how these people who do traffic can go after a vulnerable population such as your sister and and others like her that have had those experiences. That's right.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, I mean, I believe that the the people out there are good people, and you know, I go back to when everything was going on uh you know with Gary Ridgway and the news and how stuff was happening at that point, and uh, you know, I often referred to them as paper dolls. These were pictures of paper dolls. They they were pictures of the victims, right? So people saw the their pictures, but they didn't see they didn't see the story that lay beneath that picture. Right. So you know, I I often refer to them as my girls, um and they have their voices have been permanently taken, right? Their rights have been taken. And when I when I talk about the fact that they were in a dangerous place to begin with, the attitude that I've gotten at the state level is well, they're dead. I I mean, I can't tell you.
SPEAKER_04They should be the legacy that makes the moves in the direction that we need. They shouldn't be disposable in that way. We should uh sorry, it makes me want to tear up because to have it be so heartless, right? Uh is so disheartening to me because they matter in every shape, fashion, or form. And the way that they were were murdered isn't the legacy that we need to be left, that that should just be the moment, right? We need to carry it forward and and make sure that we're being in that preventative state for the other children who stand now in this space, right? And the and the young girls.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think it would be good. I wish that there were more forums, like public forums, that took place um to again publicly talk about the issue, publicly say, because a lot of people have the attitude just one person. Yeah, I can't have any power, I don't have a voice. And again, I disagree. I think that whether it's training or it's the forums that I'm talking about, you help the people identify what they can do as an individual. Yeah, and you know, I would ask them to imagine if it was themselves or if it was somebody else that they loved and cared about, because it's not just females, right? Um, it's males, females, it's elderly, it's LGBTQ. That's right. If they can sell you and make a profit off of it, that's what they'll do. And that is the definition of slavery.
SPEAKER_00Well, you're the person to bring that to the light. Yeah. You know, it's dead in the dark, gonna be brought to the light. Jenny Graham.
SPEAKER_04I think it's really important. I I appreciate that you say just sometimes it's one person doesn't think that they can, you know, kind of tackle it. And that that is not what we need here. We need a community of people banding their arms together and and digging in. And, you know, when we started the organization that I get to run, uh, the more we love, it was in response to the crisis of not having a safe place to be able to take the women and children when they were coming out of the human trafficking and the domestic violence. And now that we get to bring them in the space, it's the community that we're calling on to wrap their arms around them and saying, now the real work begins, right? Um, because that's really the point is how how do we uh empower them to see that they were so much more than the circumstance that took place or the circumstances, and then give them that voice to be able to be part of the ripple effect of changing this space. So, Jenny, I'm honored uh to talk to you. I'm honored to work alongside you in this. Um, I am in awe of you and the fact that you just continue to soldier on and you know, um, I I will just say this I serve in the space because of your sister, right? And I remember and I will always remember, and I'll hold her here every day I step out on those streets. And so just thank you from me to you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, I love a strong sister. It takes us, you know, it takes just that one voice. One person can't do something, that one voice. And some people don't have uh a Jenny Graham as a sister or Betty Frizzell as a sister. So um, Jenny, if you could say one thing to our audience, uh uh a family member or someone, or even someone who is being trafficked, what would you say to them today to give them some kind of advice or hope? Good question.
SPEAKER_02I would say get informed. There's there are things that they can do to help educate themselves about what human trafficking looks like, what are the signs, and also you know, where to go to when you see it. Who do you report it to? Where do you actually get help? Um, they as an individual could even start a little group of um concerned families or citizens. That's it, it's really not hard to do. Um, you could even as a private individual um go to a library where you get the room for free and invite your prosecutor, invite law enforcement, invite people in the know to say, okay, as a society, our community, our neighborhood, we are going to equip the the people in our neighborhoods, families, businesses to be able to know what to do, right? Where to go, what the process looks like, um, because we care, because slavery is wrong.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_02Uh we'll talk about slavery that happened 200 years ago and there's outrage, and there should be outrage, but I have an extremely difficult time where we talk about that often in the legislature, but what never gets really talked about or acknowledged is the human trafficking that's happening now, the slavery that is happening right now today.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. There was a study in 2012 that said there are more human uh people in human slavery than any other time in history. It's true right now. That's true.
SPEAKER_04So that is true. So per Jenny, educate yourself, educate, educate. Jenny, you're a force. Please don't stop. We need you in every way possible. Um, I'm empowered by you.
SPEAKER_00You're everybody's sister, I think.
SPEAKER_04Now, Jenny, I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I'm not stopping, I'm just seriously taking this information that I have, the education now that I have, and I 100% intend to pay it forward.
SPEAKER_04That's right. I told her this morning, I said, get it, you got you gotta advise, you know so much, and you know, get out there and advise the people who need to hear that. And you know, this is advising to us and educating our listeners as well to better know what to do. And I think my takeaway is is that piece educate, get to know, right? Don't just drive by, don't just uh think it might not happen to me because everybody is affected. Everybody.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's right. And um I I know that um there here in Spokane, we have HRC, um, which has to do with human trafficking. So people could also look to see locally what what is there locally to help survivors of human trafficking and maybe see if you can become involved in that. Maybe help with fundraising, maybe help with if you have certain skills that you might be able to volunteer a little bit of your time once a month, even. Um, there's a lot that we can do to literally create hope out of thin air, right? Um, with sheer will to do it. Um, and I I think that it's a worthy um use of your time and your efforts um, you know, to to do something to to help these people get back on their feet again and give them their life back again. I mean, that is the definition of hope.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, thank you. You're giving us a lot of that today, Jenny. And if you like, share, subscribe, um, hit that follow button. And Christine.
SPEAKER_04Remember to always be somebody's constant. Thank you, Jenny. Thank you. We love and appreciate you. Have a good day.