Studio Ab Ovo - Willem Jan Groenewoud - Founder and CEO at Ab Ovo - talking about past, present and future of 30 years Ab Ovo

The Future of Software: AI, Cybersecurity, Green Design & 30 Years of Entrepreneurship

What does it take to build a software company that not only survives for 30 years but continues to reinvent itself for the next 30?

In this special Studio Ab Ovo episode, founder and CEO Willem Jan Groenewoud reflects on the remarkable journey of Ab Ovo; from a small logistics consultancy founded in 1996 to an international software company serving rail freight operators, airports, airlines, and logistics organizations across the globe.

But this conversation is much more than a company history.

Willem Jan shares the strategic decisions that shaped Ab Ovo’s growth: investing early in technology, embracing advanced planning solutions, focusing on rail freight when few others did, and building long-term partnerships in mission-critical industries.

The discussion then turns to the future.

How will artificial intelligence reshape software development? What impact will quantum computing have on cybersecurity? Can software become more sustainable through green design? And what happens when AI evolves from a tool into an intelligent assistant that actively supports and teaches its users?

In this episode, Willem Jan introduces several bold ideas that are already influencing Ab Ovo’s direction:

•  The rise of speech-driven software interfaces 
•  AI-powered “agentic angels” that anticipate user needs 
•  The future of software design beyond traditional coding 
•  Why cybersecurity is becoming a boardroom issue 
•  The impact of quantum computing on critical infrastructure 
•  The growing energy footprint of AI and data centers 
•  Green software design as a competitive advantage 
•  The challenge of maintaining mission-critical systems in an AI world 
•  Why businesses must rethink their survival strategy in the age of AI 
•  The importance of long-term thinking 

One of the most fascinating concepts discussed is a future where users no longer switch between dozens of applications. Instead, they simply communicate their goals, and intelligent systems create the optimal workspace, connect relevant information, anticipate disruptions, and continuously learn from experience.

For Willem Jan, the future is not about replacing people with AI. It is about combining human expertise, trustworthy software, cybersecurity, sustainability, and intelligent assistance to create better decisions and stronger organizations.

This episode offers a rare combination of entrepreneurship, technology vision, industry insight, and practical experience from someone who has spent three decades building software for some of the world’s most complex operational environments.

Whether you're interested in AI, logistics, software engineering, digital transformation, cybersecurity, sustainability, or business leadership, this conversation provides valuable perspectives on where technology and business is heading next.

Guest: Willem Jan Groenewoud, Founder & CEO, Ab Ovo
Host: Martijn Meerman

#StudioAbOvo #AbOvo #ArtificialIntelligence #CyberSecurity #QuantumComputing #GreenDesign #GreenIT #SoftwareDevelopment #DigitalTransformation #RailFreight #LogisticsTechnology #MissionCriticalSystems #FutureOfSoftware #BusinessStrategy #Innovation #Leadership #AI #Entrepreneurship

Our mission is to improve the operational processes, to support the sustainability targets, and enhance the profitability of our customers with more efficient resource usage and streamlined processes.

We do this because we care.

We thrive in complexity. We embrace innovative, business-minded thinking and cherish devotion and passion. The perfect combination of talented colleagues, strong industry ties & eagerness to create eco-friendly solutions.

Always Hands-On

We take a no-nonsense, down-to-earth approach to tackling challenges by rolling up our sleeves. We go the extra mile to deliver high quality results that provide the most value to our customers.

Always Together

We believe in better together – with our customers and with our teams. By bringing people, processes, and data together we create mutual benefits that have an impact on our customers and society. 

www.ab-ovo.com
https://www.linkedin.com/company/ab-ovo/

Transcript

00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:14,860 [Martijn Meerman]
[instrumental music] Hello, um, listeners and viewers. Welcome again at Studio OpOvo. Today, we talk with Willem Jan Groenewoud, the founder of OpOvo. Uh, happy to have you here. 

00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:24,020 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here and, and talk about this beautiful company that I started about 30 years ago. 

00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,360 [Martijn Meerman]
Long, long time ago. A very, yeah. 

00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,200 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
When I was young. [laughs] 

00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,970 [Martijn Meerman]
[laughs] Before, before the gray hair. [laughs] 

00:00:31,970 --> 00:00:37,720 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Before the gray hair. It's, uh, yeah, 30 years is a long time. It's a journey. 

00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,100 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, a, really a journey. 

00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:39,640 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
A journey. 

00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:45,480 [Martijn Meerman]
And, and how did, how did it start? What, what makes, what, what made OpOvo, uh, found its origin? 

00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,420 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Well, that's, uh, an interesting story that I was about to buy 

00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,330 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
in those times, in, uh, 1996, 

00:00:56,460 --> 00:01:04,120 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
a company with about 300 employees, and in the end, that deal did not materialize. 

00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:11,080 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But I also stopped working at the Royal Nedlloyd, so I had to do something. 

00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,440 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:12,240 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then I thought, "Well, 

00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:16,560 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
if that's the only option, I'll start from scratch." 

00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:17,220 [Martijn Meerman]
Really? Okay. 

00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,100 [Martijn Meerman]
So you are, you have a history in logistics. 

00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:22,580 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I have a history in logistics. 

00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:24,140 [Martijn Meerman]
Royal Nedlloyd is really- 

00:01:24,140 --> 00:01:24,150 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Absolutely 

00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:27,170 [Martijn Meerman]
... uh, yeah, an old, really an old logistics company of Holland. 

00:01:27,170 --> 00:01:35,460 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Old logistics company, famous company. Um, I was on the part of the shipping lines. Beautiful business that I was in charge together with, uh, 

00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:46,680 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
a mister called Speld in, in Asia, Asia Pacific, and I learned a lot from him on how doing business and how to read what people want, what companies want. 

00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:53,860 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then I thought, "Well, why not do this in practice in the Netherlands?" And we started out as a pure consulting firm. 

00:01:53,860 --> 00:01:54,680 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:01:54,680 --> 00:02:04,350 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And what we did was find young people, enthusiastic people with a lot of background in logistics, preferably, um, and we hired them, and 

00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,259 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
none of them, I think, is working with us anymore. 

00:02:08,259 --> 00:02:08,910 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, really? Okay. 

00:02:08,910 --> 00:02:09,090 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And they all- 

00:02:09,090 --> 00:02:10,049 [Martijn Meerman]
But it's a long time ago, of course. Yeah 

00:02:10,049 --> 00:02:12,239 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... and they all have brilliant careers. 

00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:12,840 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah? 

00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,960 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. So they, uh, they learned a lot, I guess, at OpOvo. 

00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,680 [Martijn Meerman]
But it's really from, it really started from entrepreneurship. 

00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:26,060 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It started from entrepreneurship, and we had a vision of, mm, I call it five years milestones. 

00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:26,900 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:02:26,900 --> 00:02:30,260 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And the first period was make as much money as you can. 

00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:33,560 [Martijn Meerman]
That's a good business view, [laughs] of course. But- 

00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:42,220 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No, no, not, not in itself because making money is never the issue. But as much as possible to have, let's say, a war chest- 

00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:42,740 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay 

00:02:42,740 --> 00:02:44,540 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... to start investing. 

00:02:44,540 --> 00:02:45,380 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:02:45,380 --> 00:02:55,560 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So that was the purpose of the first five years. And then we said, "Well, the second five years, where do we want to invest?" And then we said, "We want to invest in technology." 

00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:55,900 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:58,520 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We didn't have a clue about what technology. 

00:02:58,520 --> 00:02:59,160 [Martijn Meerman]
Really, no? 

00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:13,180 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No, nothing. But in technology. And two things happened. On the one hand, a company called nowadays Delmia Quintiq, which is one of our best partners we, we ever had. Then it was still called Quintiq. They came along, 

00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:15,040 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and we saw their, 

00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:17,720 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
let's say, software stack. 

00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:17,820 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:21,960 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And we thought, "Well, that's brilliant. We take that one in our portfolio anyway." 

00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:22,320 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:30,520 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And we bought a company which was called, uh, ED cubed, and that's basically what we now call the Ecologic platform. That's our own technology. 

00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:31,760 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:42,440 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, the next five years, we thought about something else, and we said, "Well, if we want to survive, we need a market. There must be one market still there that we can conquer." 

00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:43,450 [Martijn Meerman]
Of course, yeah. 

00:03:43,450 --> 00:04:11,400 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And that was the period that we analyzed that the, uh, the rail industry would be different from the past. Because in the past, they were all state-owned companies with passenger, with freight, with infra, and that had to be divided by the European Commission. They decided that, and a lot of countries did so. And what we found out was that the rail freight companies were basically the ugly duckling of all those state-owned companies because all the money went to the passenger side. 

00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:11,900 [Martijn Meerman]
Ah, okay. 

00:04:13,060 --> 00:04:15,820 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So the systems they had were basically not equipped 

00:04:16,940 --> 00:04:17,940 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
truly for rail freight. 

00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:34,300 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And when we found out that that was the case, we started investing heavily in solutions for that market. And I'm very proud to say that probably about 40% of all the rail freight traffic in Europe uses our software. 

00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:41,750 [Martijn Meerman]
So it's, it's-- And, and what is the, the difference between the, the rail freight and the passenger? Or, or is, is it... Yeah. Is it in- 

00:04:41,750 --> 00:04:41,760 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It's- 

00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:41,900 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:43,000 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... totally different. 

00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:43,240 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah? 

00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,420 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, and from our perspective, the main difference is that passenger trains run on time. 

00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:49,900 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:04:51,020 --> 00:05:01,720 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Rail freight trains hardly ever run on time, so you always have to reschedule continuously. So the software you need to make sure that the train goes from A to B, 

00:05:03,380 --> 00:05:05,320 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
always something happens. 

00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,820 [Martijn Meerman]
So it really needs to be flexible. 

00:05:06,820 --> 00:05:13,520 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You need to be flexible. You have, you have to be able to reschedule, replan continuously, and that's a challenge. Um- 

00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:14,390 [Martijn Meerman]
That's a big challenge. Yeah. 

00:05:14,390 --> 00:05:19,380 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It's a big challenge. And of course, in the passenger rail, there is also some disruption, some, but 

00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:21,480 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
minimal. 

00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:31,740 [Martijn Meerman]
And of course, you started the, the European Union set some regula- set regulations, rules, but they had to be applied, of course. 

00:05:31,740 --> 00:05:32,440 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
They had to be applied. 

00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:32,469 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:05:32,469 --> 00:05:41,440 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It's continuous business because the business is changing continuously because of new rulings, so we also have to adjust our software continuously, so it gives us a steady position. 

00:05:41,440 --> 00:06:03,936 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, and for, for us, uh, people not into the, the, the, the, the whole business of rail freight, but we think that the European Union is a long, uh, uh, set, been set a long time ago, but it's not always been that u- united also, I think, in, in, in how to use, uh, rail freight together 

00:06:03,936 --> 00:06:05,476 [Martijn Meerman]
With regulations and, and- 

00:06:05,476 --> 00:06:09,336 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No, that is, I mean, every country has its own interpretation of the rules. 

00:06:09,336 --> 00:06:09,556 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:11,476 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That makes it interesting. 

00:06:11,476 --> 00:06:30,096 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, we talked, we talked with some, yeah, with, with, with also with business owners of, uh, applications of, of OVO, and they always are very proud of the, the unity of, of, of the application. So it's u- it can be used in the, uh, all of the, yeah, worldwide actually, with all the regulations in it and, and, yeah. 

00:06:30,096 --> 00:06:32,196 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Well, worldwide, yes, in essence. 

00:06:32,196 --> 00:06:33,716 [Martijn Meerman]
Tried. Yeah, tried. [laughs] 

00:06:33,716 --> 00:06:37,556 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But there are some limitations. Not on the planning software, that is worldwide. 

00:06:37,556 --> 00:06:38,076 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:49,916 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But the challenges are different in Europe than in the States or in Australia or wherever. Um, if we look at the, um, order-to-cash system, that's more European based. 

00:06:49,916 --> 00:06:51,056 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:06:51,056 --> 00:07:02,236 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's, uh... But that's basically the, the start of the company. Um, we had that position, and then at one point in time we said, "Okay, now we're going to create value." 

00:07:02,236 --> 00:07:06,096 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, of course. Yeah. And not value in money, but value in... 

00:07:06,096 --> 00:07:06,976 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Of the company. 

00:07:06,976 --> 00:07:08,256 [Martijn Meerman]
Of the company, yeah. 

00:07:08,256 --> 00:07:11,316 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And, uh, when that was done, basically, 

00:07:12,336 --> 00:07:24,716 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
um, I had a partner, uh, in the company. Basically, he was responsible for all internal affairs plus the, uh, development of the rail cargo system. He fell ill. 

00:07:24,716 --> 00:07:24,896 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh. 

00:07:24,896 --> 00:07:31,916 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And the company had a huge value, so we were forced more or less to find a buyer. 

00:07:31,916 --> 00:07:35,996 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. You couldn't just take it by, uh, take it up by yourself. You n- 

00:07:35,996 --> 00:07:36,006 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No 

00:07:36,006 --> 00:07:36,676 [Martijn Meerman]
... you needed- 

00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:37,696 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It was, it was too much money. 

00:07:37,696 --> 00:07:38,056 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:07:38,056 --> 00:07:50,496 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's, uh... So we basically sold the company, and a capital investor joined, and they found out that this is a, a market which is not really that scalable, so they were disappointed- 

00:07:50,496 --> 00:07:50,856 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. Of course. Yeah 

00:07:50,856 --> 00:08:01,336 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... at one point in time. And as a family, um, uh, myself and my, my children, uh, we sat together and we said, "We're gonna buy it back." 

00:08:01,336 --> 00:08:02,176 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:08:02,176 --> 00:08:03,076 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then- 

00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:13,676 [Martijn Meerman]
So, and, and so what was the time from the origin, uh, from the start of the company to the, the, the point that you needed to, you had to switch to, to an invest- to, to an investor? Is that... 

00:08:13,676 --> 00:08:16,176 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, that's roughly... 

00:08:16,176 --> 00:08:17,976 [Martijn Meerman]
Is that, like, 10 years ago that it happened or? 

00:08:17,976 --> 00:08:19,016 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah, 13, 13 years ago. 

00:08:19,016 --> 00:08:22,316 [Martijn Meerman]
13 years ago. Wow. That is, that is quite a change because- 

00:08:22,316 --> 00:08:22,596 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Uh-huh 

00:08:22,596 --> 00:08:33,136 [Martijn Meerman]
... you're, you're your own, uh, uh, entrepreneur. Y- you, you have all the saying, what, uh, which way you have to, uh, you want to go and what you want to do was all by yourself- 

00:08:33,136 --> 00:08:33,216 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah 

00:08:33,216 --> 00:08:34,556 [Martijn Meerman]
... actually, or by the company itself. 

00:08:35,616 --> 00:08:36,196 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That changed. 

00:08:36,196 --> 00:08:36,305 [Martijn Meerman]
You know? Yeah. 

00:08:36,305 --> 00:08:39,636 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It was a big change. It's a different, uh, different dynamics- 

00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:39,836 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:08:39,836 --> 00:08:46,956 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... I would say. But three years ago, we, uh, I came back, and one and a half year ago, I bought the company back. 

00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:47,436 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:08:47,436 --> 00:08:55,256 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's, uh... So now we're in charge again of what's going to happen, and just in time, I think, because the industry is changing like hell- 

00:08:55,256 --> 00:08:55,716 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:08:55,716 --> 00:09:05,296 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... at the moment. And that is, there are three components basically that, that we're focusing on. Um, one is on, on software design in itself. 

00:09:05,296 --> 00:09:05,566 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:09:05,566 --> 00:09:06,576 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
How do you create software? 

00:09:07,896 --> 00:09:09,976 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Another one is on energy. 

00:09:09,976 --> 00:09:10,696 [Martijn Meerman]
Of course, yeah. 

00:09:10,696 --> 00:09:12,656 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And a last one is on the cybersecurity. 

00:09:13,736 --> 00:09:14,596 [Martijn Meerman]
Three very 

00:09:15,656 --> 00:09:16,856 [Martijn Meerman]
large topics in, [laughs] in- 

00:09:16,856 --> 00:09:17,256 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Very large topics 

00:09:17,256 --> 00:09:19,486 [Martijn Meerman]
... IT, [laughs] in IT these days. 

00:09:19,486 --> 00:09:25,256 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Oh, yeah. If you look at cybersecurity, yesterday I was at, uh, an infra provider in Europe. 

00:09:25,256 --> 00:09:25,576 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:09:25,576 --> 00:09:31,236 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And I confronted them with the question, "How will quantum computing affect- 

00:09:31,236 --> 00:09:32,056 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, yeah 

00:09:32,056 --> 00:09:32,456 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... your company?" 

00:09:34,446 --> 00:09:41,346 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And they, they gave the right answer, actually. They said, "Well, we are discussing this now weekly 

00:09:42,356 --> 00:09:43,506 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
with Gartner." 

00:09:43,506 --> 00:09:44,436 [Martijn Meerman]
Wow. 

00:09:44,436 --> 00:09:57,416 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
"Because the impact of quantum computing on our security will be so huge, the chance that we will be hacked will increase tremendously, and we have a critical service for the country." 

00:09:57,416 --> 00:10:00,096 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, of course. If, when everything, uh, when rail freight or- 

00:10:00,096 --> 00:10:00,276 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah 

00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:02,516 [Martijn Meerman]
... uh, logistics in general's- 

00:10:02,516 --> 00:10:13,876 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And they are not the only ones that, that... So it's not only for, for, let's say, infra providers, but also for airports, for anything you can think of which is critical for the functioning of a country 

00:10:15,316 --> 00:10:16,816 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
is at risk. 

00:10:16,816 --> 00:10:18,616 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, you need to trust everything that- 

00:10:18,616 --> 00:10:18,716 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah 

00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:23,896 [Martijn Meerman]
... that goes through the country. It's not that just a box that you service, but it's also- 

00:10:23,896 --> 00:10:23,905 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yes 

00:10:23,905 --> 00:10:27,456 [Martijn Meerman]
... uh, oil or chemicals or, yeah, whatever. 

00:10:27,456 --> 00:10:27,776 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um- 

00:10:27,776 --> 00:10:29,476 [Martijn Meerman]
It needs to be safe and- 

00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:34,696 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I had a very interesting discussion about three weeks ago with somebody, um, I won't mention the name. 

00:10:34,696 --> 00:10:35,116 [Martijn Meerman]
No, of course. No. 

00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:37,506 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Because that, that's logical. But the, um, 

00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:40,636 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
they said, "Well, quantum computing is still far away." 

00:10:42,116 --> 00:10:45,356 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And my reply was, "Yes and no." 

00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:45,656 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:10:45,656 --> 00:10:49,896 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Before the quantum computers are reliable, that may take 

00:10:51,136 --> 00:11:00,516 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
three years, two years, I don't know. Could be faster, but, um, but basically the risk is already now because a lot of companies have been hacked. 

00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:00,616 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:11:01,676 --> 00:11:04,776 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Data is encrypted quite often, but it's stored. 

00:11:06,296 --> 00:11:13,996 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So the moment that those quantum computers are operational, you can be damn sure that all that data will be opened. 

00:11:13,996 --> 00:11:16,166 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. They're going, yeah, they're going to use the whole... Yeah. 

00:11:16,166 --> 00:11:19,856 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then there will be a second wave of- 

00:11:19,856 --> 00:11:20,186 [Martijn Meerman]
Attacks 

00:11:20,186 --> 00:11:20,936 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... blackmail. 

00:11:20,936 --> 00:11:21,216 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:11:21,216 --> 00:11:34,656 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Basically. That's, uh... So it's there, and you have to prepare yourself for that. Now, that's one topic which is very, very interesting, uh, especially for us because we only deliver mission-critical systems. 

00:11:34,656 --> 00:11:35,116 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:11:35,116 --> 00:11:37,156 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So if our systems are not protected... 

00:11:38,456 --> 00:11:42,016 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, you cannot just put it at the customer's, uh, re- uh, responsibility. 

00:11:42,016 --> 00:11:42,196 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No. 

00:11:42,196 --> 00:11:44,916 [Martijn Meerman]
You, you, you need to be responsible yourself. 

00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:46,656 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We are to a large extent responsible- 

00:11:46,656 --> 00:11:46,936 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:11:46,936 --> 00:11:49,516 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... for the quality of our systems. 

00:11:50,856 --> 00:11:57,496 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Now, the second topic is also very interesting on energy, that when AI came up 

00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:01,676 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
in the consumer field, I call it still- 

00:12:01,676 --> 00:12:07,964 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, of course. Yeah, because it's, it's, it's lower here, but That we know, that we know it as a consumer, it's, it's few years now 

00:12:07,964 --> 00:12:13,903 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And we already saw an increase in the energy demand on the IT sector. It is now increasing more. 

00:12:13,904 --> 00:12:14,874 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:12:14,874 --> 00:12:25,084 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So we don't know the exact figures, but if you look at the complete IT environment, everything including the production of telephones, laptops or- 

00:12:25,144 --> 00:12:25,824 [Martijn Meerman]
Servers- 

00:12:25,824 --> 00:12:26,274 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Anything 

00:12:26,274 --> 00:12:27,764 [Martijn Meerman]
... and chips, everything, yeah 

00:12:27,764 --> 00:12:29,674 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, the worldwide energy 

00:12:31,464 --> 00:12:35,394 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
percentage will probably be, be above 40%. 

00:12:36,593 --> 00:12:40,424 [Martijn Meerman]
That's incred-- Yeah, that's really a lot. Like world- worldwide, that's a lot. 

00:12:40,424 --> 00:12:41,354 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yes. So that means that 

00:12:42,704 --> 00:12:45,654 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
at one point in time, there will be a shortage at data centers. 

00:12:45,654 --> 00:12:45,684 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:12:45,684 --> 00:12:49,814 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That is one thing, and the other thing is there might also be a shortage on the energy itself. 

00:12:49,814 --> 00:12:49,824 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:12:49,824 --> 00:12:52,424 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
The electricity, but also the water. 

00:12:52,424 --> 00:12:55,894 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, that's true. Yeah, the cooling. Yeah, the, the cooling for all the, uh, of the heat. Yeah. 

00:12:55,894 --> 00:12:59,084 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So the more systems we create, the more AI we use- 

00:12:59,084 --> 00:12:59,204 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep 

00:12:59,204 --> 00:13:14,964 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... the higher the risk. And I think mission-critical systems in the end will have preference over non-mission-critical systems one way or the other. Don't know how that will figure out, but it's a certain logic. Um, and the less energy you use with your software- 

00:13:14,964 --> 00:13:15,764 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:13:15,764 --> 00:13:18,724 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... basically also the less risk you run- 

00:13:18,724 --> 00:13:19,644 [Martijn Meerman]
The greener coding 

00:13:19,644 --> 00:13:19,694 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... in the future. 

00:13:19,694 --> 00:13:20,864 [Martijn Meerman]
I talked with a, a transitionist- 

00:13:20,864 --> 00:13:20,874 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Exactly 

00:13:20,874 --> 00:13:22,043 [Martijn Meerman]
... about the green coding. Yeah. 

00:13:22,044 --> 00:13:30,554 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Exactly. So we need to go into that direction, and our purpose as, as a company is indeed, you call it green coding. E- I call it, uh- 

00:13:30,554 --> 00:13:31,894 [Martijn Meerman]
Or green IT or whatever. Yeah 

00:13:33,244 --> 00:13:34,384 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... yeah, green design. 

00:13:34,384 --> 00:13:35,854 [Martijn Meerman]
Green d- yeah, actually from the bottom- 

00:13:35,854 --> 00:13:35,854 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Basically from the bottom up 

00:13:35,854 --> 00:13:37,134 [Martijn Meerman]
... yeah, from, from the startup. Yeah 

00:13:37,134 --> 00:13:44,104 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Green design, make sure that our software uses less energy than our competitors, basically. 

00:13:45,274 --> 00:13:52,344 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's on the energy si-side. Now, if we look at software design, that's even more interesting, um, because then it becomes more 

00:13:53,544 --> 00:13:59,934 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
f- physical in the end. I mean, if you talk about energy or cybersecurity, these are fake terms in the end. I mean- 

00:13:59,934 --> 00:14:02,504 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, you cannot sh- you cannot show them immediately 

00:14:02,504 --> 00:14:03,044 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You can't, you can't show it. 

00:14:03,044 --> 00:14:03,094 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:14:03,094 --> 00:14:04,214 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You can't touch it. You can't- 

00:14:04,214 --> 00:14:04,214 [Martijn Meerman]
No 

00:14:04,214 --> 00:14:08,264 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... I mean, they're important. But if we look at software design, um, 

00:14:09,364 --> 00:14:15,043 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
two and a half years ago, we had some discussions internally on and some vision sharing, 

00:14:16,264 --> 00:14:18,804 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and I refer to a science fiction movie. 

00:14:18,804 --> 00:14:20,824 [Martijn Meerman]
[chuckles] Which one? 

00:14:20,824 --> 00:14:22,594 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I don't recall which one, but you see them- 

00:14:22,594 --> 00:14:22,604 [Martijn Meerman]
Ah 

00:14:22,604 --> 00:14:27,924 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... quite often that people sit in a room, and they just wave their hands, and suddenly you see a screen coming up. 

00:14:27,924 --> 00:14:28,824 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, of course. Yeah. 

00:14:28,824 --> 00:14:35,784 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And they talk to that screen, and they swipe over that screen, but it wasn't there. Just basically they're talking, that activated- 

00:14:35,784 --> 00:14:36,384 [Martijn Meerman]
Something. Yeah 

00:14:36,384 --> 00:14:45,304 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... something. Now, that is a way forward that I believe will happen, absolutely, and are both investing in that heavily. 

00:14:45,304 --> 00:14:46,424 [Martijn Meerman]
So into, into, into- 

00:14:46,424 --> 00:14:49,004 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So not yet into the thin air. I mean, that is- 

00:14:49,004 --> 00:14:49,754 [Martijn Meerman]
No, but that, yeah 

00:14:49,754 --> 00:14:52,544 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... that is, uh, the carrier, I call it. But the whole- 

00:14:52,544 --> 00:14:54,324 [Martijn Meerman]
That's the movie part. [laughs] 

00:14:54,324 --> 00:15:02,164 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's the movie. But the whole concept that you come into your room, basically you have a black screen, and you start talking to that screen what you want to do. 

00:15:02,164 --> 00:15:03,044 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:15:03,044 --> 00:15:11,784 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then a specific screen is created for you that is connected to seven or eight applications, but also to the world outside- 

00:15:11,784 --> 00:15:12,504 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep 

00:15:12,504 --> 00:15:28,224 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... so that you can do your work in the best possible way. Um, and then there's disruption or there's something happening or whatever, and you keep on working. The same time, we have an agentic angel monitoring continuously what you're doing and learning. 

00:15:29,344 --> 00:15:30,104 [Martijn Meerman]
Real time. 

00:15:30,104 --> 00:15:30,724 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Real time. 

00:15:30,724 --> 00:15:31,204 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:15:31,204 --> 00:15:44,664 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So that at one point in time, when you open your screen, then this agentic angel goes, "Ah, within 15 minutes you will be asking or doing this," because I've already seen from the data and the information that's coming up what's about to happen. 

00:15:44,664 --> 00:15:46,964 [Martijn Meerman]
Do you know wea- you know weather in front, you know- 

00:15:46,964 --> 00:15:47,034 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So- 

00:15:47,034 --> 00:15:49,934 [Martijn Meerman]
... uh, work in front, you know, uh, the planning on- 

00:15:49,934 --> 00:15:49,934 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So the- 

00:15:49,934 --> 00:15:52,244 [Martijn Meerman]
... on the railroads. You can all incorporate everything 

00:15:52,244 --> 00:15:57,304 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Exactly. So this person could be a planner or something else, basically gets the feed already. "Watch out. You have to do this." 

00:15:57,304 --> 00:15:57,314 [Martijn Meerman]
Wow. 

00:15:57,314 --> 00:16:01,624 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
"You have to go there. You have to do that." So he gets support and more in- 

00:16:01,624 --> 00:16:02,824 [Martijn Meerman]
In anticipation. 

00:16:02,824 --> 00:16:03,154 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yes. 

00:16:03,154 --> 00:16:03,164 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:16:03,164 --> 00:16:07,204 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And it's very interesting because this angel, I call it- 

00:16:07,204 --> 00:16:07,294 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:16:07,294 --> 00:16:10,164 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... learns a lot and is basically only supportive. 

00:16:11,344 --> 00:16:19,364 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But what happens if this planner or, or the person basically can't work anymore? Either he retires or something bad happens- 

00:16:19,364 --> 00:16:20,783 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, of course. Yeah 

00:16:20,783 --> 00:16:21,794 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... or then somebody else comes in 

00:16:23,244 --> 00:16:24,644 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
who doesn't have a clue. 

00:16:24,644 --> 00:16:26,284 [Martijn Meerman]
No, of course. He doesn't, yeah 

00:16:26,284 --> 00:16:28,524 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Then this angel becomes a tutor. 

00:16:28,524 --> 00:16:29,464 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:16:29,464 --> 00:16:36,924 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So there's no break in continuity on the quality of the work, and after a while, this tutor becomes supportive again. 

00:16:38,504 --> 00:16:39,554 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, because the level of- 

00:16:39,554 --> 00:16:39,654 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So if the world changed- 

00:16:39,654 --> 00:16:42,164 [Martijn Meerman]
... intelligence is up, is, is, has been raised- 

00:16:42,164 --> 00:16:42,494 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
The understanding 

00:16:42,494 --> 00:16:43,684 [Martijn Meerman]
... to the old, yeah, to the old level 

00:16:43,684 --> 00:16:47,964 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Exactly. So that is something that, that we hope to launch on the 1st of October. 

00:16:47,964 --> 00:16:48,564 [Martijn Meerman]
Wow. 

00:16:48,564 --> 00:17:05,484 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
This workable, let's say, solution already. Um, the other thing that we're also looking at, uh, changing the industry of software design is one of the biggest problems usually in, in, let's say, greenfield type of projects, 

00:17:06,964 --> 00:17:07,384 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
is that 

00:17:08,544 --> 00:17:10,984 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
there's never consensus on what has to be created. 

00:17:12,644 --> 00:17:14,024 [Martijn Meerman]
And what do you mean by that? 

00:17:14,024 --> 00:17:28,564 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Well, you have consultants from our company sitting with the experts from the, uh, the customer, and they talk for six or eight weeks, and they produce a document which is probably 95% accurate. 

00:17:28,564 --> 00:17:30,024 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, okay. 

00:17:30,024 --> 00:17:31,364 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And then everybody signs off, 

00:17:32,484 --> 00:17:38,244 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and when you start creating the software, then along the road, "Oh, no, this is not what we meant." 

00:17:38,244 --> 00:17:39,084 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, okay. 

00:17:39,084 --> 00:17:41,264 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We basically need something else. 

00:17:41,264 --> 00:17:43,103 [Martijn Meerman]
The translation from the, the vision- 

00:17:43,104 --> 00:17:43,194 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Exactly 

00:17:43,194 --> 00:17:47,214 [Martijn Meerman]
... or the thinking to the actual document and then the actual workload is- 

00:17:47,214 --> 00:17:48,554 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That is, um- 

00:17:48,554 --> 00:17:48,714 [Martijn Meerman]
... a difficult thing 

00:17:48,714 --> 00:17:52,884 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... this is quite often, yeah, misunderstanding or 

00:17:53,924 --> 00:17:58,304 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
still building up knowledge which was lost, by the way, somewhere, somehow. 

00:17:58,304 --> 00:17:58,394 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:17:58,394 --> 00:18:06,284 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You never know. Um, but what we now have is, that also basically covers the, the language barriers because we work internationally with- 

00:18:06,284 --> 00:18:06,724 [Martijn Meerman]
Of course. Yeah

00:18:08,172 --> 00:18:12,692 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We have a, what we call a BPMN wizard. It's for ourselves. 

00:18:12,692 --> 00:18:13,012 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:18:13,012 --> 00:18:22,272 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, where basically you can sit talking in Latvian. I can speak to you in Dutch, and in the meantime, the process schemes are showed on the screen in English. 

00:18:23,772 --> 00:18:24,252 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:18:24,252 --> 00:18:30,992 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And it's interactive. And the moment that people say, "Well, this is exactly the process in detail what I'm talking about," 

00:18:32,072 --> 00:18:33,652 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
we fix it, we sign it off, 

00:18:35,152 --> 00:18:39,172 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and that one is not 95% correct but 99.5% correct. 

00:18:39,172 --> 00:18:39,512 [Martijn Meerman]
Wow. 

00:18:39,512 --> 00:18:52,432 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So the, the risk in a project or the failures in a project is considerably being reduced, but also the time to create such a, a understanding is reduced. You don't need six consultants. You need only two. 

00:18:52,432 --> 00:18:54,012 [Martijn Meerman]
But it's, it's, it's called vision. 

00:18:54,012 --> 00:18:54,052 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. 

00:18:54,052 --> 00:18:57,112 [Martijn Meerman]
So you see a visual translation of- 

00:18:57,112 --> 00:18:57,972 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It's a visual translation of- 

00:18:57,972 --> 00:18:59,642 [Martijn Meerman]
... your, yeah, what you, what you need or what you want 

00:18:59,642 --> 00:19:01,212 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And you can talk in your own language- 

00:19:01,212 --> 00:19:02,442 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, that's really a good word 

00:19:02,442 --> 00:19:03,212 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... instead of in English. 

00:19:03,212 --> 00:19:03,452 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:19:05,132 --> 00:19:12,282 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So that is a, a big advantage. Now, if we look at the actual creation of software, which is also interesting, 

00:19:15,032 --> 00:19:19,392 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
um, that you can use AI to create software. I mean, there's no doubt about it. 

00:19:19,392 --> 00:19:20,332 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, of course. 

00:19:20,332 --> 00:19:28,702 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But the problem is with AI creating software is that if you want to change something, it is completely recreated again, and it- 

00:19:28,702 --> 00:19:28,722 [Martijn Meerman]
That's true 

00:19:28,722 --> 00:19:29,332 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... may be different. 

00:19:30,352 --> 00:19:31,242 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, it's... Yeah. 

00:19:31,242 --> 00:19:31,252 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[laughs] 

00:19:31,252 --> 00:19:32,902 [Martijn Meerman]
The, the, the start, it, it has- 

00:19:32,902 --> 00:19:32,902 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah 

00:19:32,902 --> 00:19:35,852 [Martijn Meerman]
... it has a, a always a, a, a, a start point- 

00:19:35,852 --> 00:19:36,011 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yep 

00:19:36,011 --> 00:19:38,622 [Martijn Meerman]
... where it goes back to, and then it recreates again- 

00:19:38,622 --> 00:19:38,622 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Recreates, yeah 

00:19:38,622 --> 00:19:39,871 [Martijn Meerman]
... from the start point and not... Yeah. 

00:19:39,872 --> 00:19:43,032 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And you, you can't afford that in mission critical systems. 

00:19:43,032 --> 00:19:43,072 [Martijn Meerman]
No. 

00:19:43,072 --> 00:19:46,172 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I mean, if it's a bookkeeping system and there's a small error, who cares? 

00:19:46,172 --> 00:19:46,532 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:19:46,532 --> 00:19:49,682 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Or a CRM system, well, it's unfortunate, but, 

00:19:50,952 --> 00:19:56,752 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
but if you look at mission critical systems, you can't afford that. So you need, uh, software which is maintainable. 

00:19:57,942 --> 00:19:57,952 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:19:57,952 --> 00:20:07,072 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Where you can make changes with the certainty that nothing else actually is being affected. Um, so that's a restriction in that world. 

00:20:07,072 --> 00:20:08,752 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. Yeah, of course. 

00:20:08,752 --> 00:20:19,212 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
The other thing is that the functional part is no longer the most interesting part. It's the non-functional part that's the most interesting, like cybersecurity, but also scalability, um, 

00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:26,432 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
friendliness, everything you can talk about. And also in that field, you can use, um, 

00:20:27,792 --> 00:20:28,192 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
AI 

00:20:29,312 --> 00:20:30,331 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
to support- 

00:20:30,332 --> 00:20:31,492 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes 

00:20:31,492 --> 00:20:34,052 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... but not to take over. So- 

00:20:34,052 --> 00:20:36,572 [Martijn Meerman]
It's not what it does, but how it, how it works 

00:20:36,572 --> 00:20:37,002 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... how you use it. 

00:20:37,002 --> 00:20:37,032 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:20:37,032 --> 00:20:47,732 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
That's the, uh, the key there. And so if we look at our industry, then yeah, in the end, we need more people who can design 

00:20:48,892 --> 00:20:54,112 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and steer the processes instead of pure coding. 

00:20:54,112 --> 00:20:56,642 [Martijn Meerman]
Because the coding has hard, uh, yeah. 

00:20:56,642 --> 00:21:07,831 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So a large part has been taken over, but not like some people think AI does it. No. AI can bring portions, but it still has to be translated into a maintainable product. 

00:21:07,832 --> 00:21:08,432 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:21:08,432 --> 00:21:13,212 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Uh, that's, uh... So that is for the, uh, the software companies, and I think in the end we need 

00:21:14,252 --> 00:21:19,092 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
probably less people on the software design but more people on the cybersecurity part. 

00:21:19,092 --> 00:21:19,642 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:21:19,642 --> 00:21:41,472 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So it's, uh, not that you need less people, but you need different skills. I mean, that is, that's clear. And if we look at in a broader sense of AI, our industry is being affected. And in the end, everything we do, and I'm sure our competitors do the same, we look at any investment, uh, from a business case perspective. 

00:21:41,472 --> 00:21:42,491 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes, of course. Yeah, of course. 

00:21:42,492 --> 00:21:48,592 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I mean, there's no point of using AI developments if it only brings cost and no benefits. So that is critical. 

00:21:50,052 --> 00:21:50,192 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And- 

00:21:50,192 --> 00:21:56,162 [Martijn Meerman]
You try to, you try to fix it on a market or on a needed, in some, uh, a market needs. 

00:21:56,162 --> 00:21:59,692 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Where you win time, you can make a better offer to a customer. 

00:21:59,692 --> 00:21:59,842 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:21:59,842 --> 00:22:01,452 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So higher chance to win. 

00:22:01,452 --> 00:22:02,072 [Martijn Meerman]
Of course. 

00:22:02,072 --> 00:22:12,271 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I mean, that is the, um... But if we look at AI in general, how it is being applied in companies, um, I think I said it before in another setting. I know. 

00:22:13,272 --> 00:22:16,412 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I'm sure I did. Um, last year, October 1st- 

00:22:16,412 --> 00:22:16,652 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, yeah 

00:22:16,652 --> 00:22:30,832 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... as a final speech in that, that setting. There are only two industries that are not seriously affected by AI, only from a business case perspective, and all other industries are at risk of survival. 

00:22:30,832 --> 00:22:31,002 [Martijn Meerman]
Yes. 

00:22:32,152 --> 00:22:36,652 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And those two industries are anything that has heavy equipment. 

00:22:37,992 --> 00:22:38,232 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:22:40,112 --> 00:22:43,372 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So manufacturing is equipment in itself. Uh, 

00:22:44,392 --> 00:22:48,612 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
rail operators, you need a locomotive. You need wagons. 

00:22:48,612 --> 00:22:49,152 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep. 

00:22:49,152 --> 00:22:54,532 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So you can have a long list of those kind of companies, but AI will be for them there to, to 

00:22:55,672 --> 00:23:00,392 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
create more efficiency in the end or be less riskful in what they're doing. 

00:23:02,092 --> 00:23:04,932 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And the other industry is people. 

00:23:06,592 --> 00:23:07,652 [Martijn Meerman]
Because... Yeah. 

00:23:07,652 --> 00:23:08,392 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You have to eat. 

00:23:09,412 --> 00:23:09,852 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep. 

00:23:09,852 --> 00:23:11,192 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You want to dress. 

00:23:11,192 --> 00:23:11,292 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep. 

00:23:11,292 --> 00:23:12,332 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You have to go to the haircutter. 

00:23:13,632 --> 00:23:15,142 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Anything relating to your body 

00:23:16,952 --> 00:23:18,772 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
will stay on as an industry. 

00:23:18,772 --> 00:23:25,472 [Martijn Meerman]
And maybe you see, you see something in that, uh, that kind of movies that there's a robot cutting your hair, but it's not [laughs]... 

00:23:25,472 --> 00:23:26,002 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Even then- 

00:23:26,002 --> 00:23:26,312 [Martijn Meerman]
It's... Yeah 

00:23:26,312 --> 00:23:27,892 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... even then, it's a business case. 

00:23:27,892 --> 00:23:28,172 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:23:29,412 --> 00:23:29,482 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:23:29,482 --> 00:23:29,532 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah, 

00:23:30,632 --> 00:23:35,772 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
that's... So anything relating to your body, um, leads to, let's say, 

00:23:36,912 --> 00:23:39,332 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
a certain industry, whatever. 

00:23:39,332 --> 00:23:39,652 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:23:39,652 --> 00:23:42,952 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, and all other industries in between, 

00:23:44,652 --> 00:23:46,372 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
they have to think about their survival. 

00:23:46,372 --> 00:23:48,082 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:23:48,082 --> 00:23:52,232 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So that's not a business case quite often. It's more like, okay, what does it mean? 

00:23:53,732 --> 00:23:56,852 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And how can I survive? How can I reinvent my own business 

00:23:58,032 --> 00:24:00,552 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
to be there still in 5 or 10 or 20 years' time? 

00:24:01,812 --> 00:24:17,724 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, because people talk, always talk about knowledge of people or concepting from, from the, the thoughts of people, how the brain, how the brain thinks. But when AI, uh, is fast enough and, and, and smart enough- 

00:24:17,724 --> 00:24:26,164 [Martijn Meerman]
There, there, there's always gonna be the efficiency, uh, part. So you don't need 10 consultants. You need one who is working- 

00:24:26,164 --> 00:24:26,543 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yes 

00:24:26,543 --> 00:24:31,034 [Martijn Meerman]
... with software or with AI, with tooling, and can do the work of 10. 

00:24:32,424 --> 00:24:34,424 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Mm. To a certain extent, yes. 

00:24:34,424 --> 00:24:35,534 [Martijn Meerman]
To a certain extent, yeah. 

00:24:35,534 --> 00:24:37,954 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But there will be a huge efficiency, absolutely. 

00:24:37,954 --> 00:24:49,384 [Martijn Meerman]
It's also an oppor- opportunity. We always say we have not enough people, [laughs] not, not enough, uh, hours, uh, that we can, uh, that we can put into it. So in that, in that case, 

00:24:50,444 --> 00:24:51,224 [Martijn Meerman]
it is a solution. 

00:24:53,784 --> 00:24:56,704 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. How many people do we have on this earth? [laughs] 

00:24:56,704 --> 00:25:00,384 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, but then... Yeah, but the, the strange thing is we always look at, at, at, at... 

00:25:01,764 --> 00:25:16,904 [Martijn Meerman]
When you say all the people, but for a lot of people, all the people are within borders [laughs] of the country, of course. Yeah, that's, that's the strange thing, that when you look at really at, at, at solutions, uh, Bill Gates looks at solutions, like, worldwide, eh? 

00:25:16,904 --> 00:25:16,954 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yep. 

00:25:16,954 --> 00:25:26,104 [Martijn Meerman]
He thinks of something and put it somewhere on the earth. But a lot of things that are thought of are within, even within a town or a- 

00:25:26,104 --> 00:25:26,434 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I know 

00:25:26,434 --> 00:25:27,744 [Martijn Meerman]
... a municipality or, or- 

00:25:27,744 --> 00:25:32,964 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No, that's correct. But, I mean, our company has always been global- 

00:25:32,964 --> 00:25:33,424 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:25:33,424 --> 00:25:35,524 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... in its thinking, in its doing, in its acting, 

00:25:36,644 --> 00:25:54,284 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[ts] and that stays. So if we look at that human resources, there's a lot of limitations of, of using people in, in, in other countries. I mean, there's a language barrier. There is an understanding barrier. There is a lot time barrier. Um, but in the end, it's more effective. 

00:25:55,504 --> 00:25:56,424 [Martijn Meerman]
So, yeah. 

00:25:56,424 --> 00:26:04,464 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
If you invest and, and are willing to invest because it never done on, on day one. It may take two or three years b- before you reap the benefits. 

00:26:04,464 --> 00:26:11,494 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah, but now it's two or three years. And when you look at the first, uh, d- the Industrial Revolution, it took [laughs] decades. 

00:26:11,494 --> 00:26:11,544 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Decades, yeah. 

00:26:11,544 --> 00:26:28,093 [Martijn Meerman]
So that's also crazy. The, the, the, the, the development of things are... It's taking so little time now. That's, that's a crazy thing. Uh, but when you, when you talked earlier about, "Oh, it, it isn't in the near future," and then you say two years. What are two years? It's crazy. 

00:26:28,093 --> 00:26:28,774 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
It's not a long time. 

00:26:28,774 --> 00:26:28,784 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:26:28,784 --> 00:26:31,684 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
But you have to invest those two years, and then you get your benefits. 

00:26:31,684 --> 00:26:32,224 [Martijn Meerman]
Exactly. 

00:26:32,224 --> 00:26:33,584 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So it's worthwhile. 

00:26:33,624 --> 00:26:34,193 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. It's worthwhile. 

00:26:34,193 --> 00:26:35,704 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Absolutely. That's, uh, 

00:26:37,084 --> 00:26:37,124 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
yeah. 

00:26:37,124 --> 00:26:41,144 [Martijn Meerman]
So that is the future of, this future of Apovo is in 

00:26:43,024 --> 00:26:44,323 [Martijn Meerman]
worldwide- 

00:26:44,384 --> 00:26:46,044 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Oh, yeah. We are worldwide, basically. 

00:26:46,044 --> 00:26:46,104 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. Yeah. 

00:26:46,104 --> 00:26:48,834 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We have, uh, people in India working for us. 

00:26:48,834 --> 00:26:48,844 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:26:48,844 --> 00:26:51,384 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We have people in the States, all over Europe. 

00:26:53,324 --> 00:27:00,494 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[ts] And we also work in the Middle East. We used to have an office in China, but unfortunately- 

00:27:00,494 --> 00:27:00,494 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah 

00:27:00,494 --> 00:27:02,904 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... that, uh, was too early. 

00:27:02,904 --> 00:27:03,404 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:27:03,404 --> 00:27:06,864 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Perhaps we go back, but at the moment, not. Um, 

00:27:07,924 --> 00:27:16,024 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
but yeah. I mean, if you look at the industries that we are in, [ts] um, take the, the airlines and the airports. 

00:27:16,024 --> 00:27:16,383 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:27:16,384 --> 00:27:20,504 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
If you would stick to the Netherlands, then yeah. Well, it's one airline. [laughs] 

00:27:20,504 --> 00:27:20,894 [Martijn Meerman]
It's one air- 

00:27:20,894 --> 00:27:21,644 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Basically one airport. 

00:27:21,644 --> 00:27:23,114 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. [laughs] Actually, yeah. 

00:27:23,114 --> 00:27:23,454 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. [laughs] 

00:27:23,454 --> 00:27:24,724 [Martijn Meerman]
And one main port, yeah. 

00:27:24,724 --> 00:27:25,664 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. So 

00:27:26,704 --> 00:27:30,164 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
if you want to do business in that segment, you have to be international. 

00:27:30,164 --> 00:27:30,484 [Martijn Meerman]
Large, yeah. 

00:27:30,484 --> 00:27:35,984 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
If you look at rail freight, there is basically one rail freight operator originally 

00:27:37,104 --> 00:27:41,524 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
in the Netherlands. We got four or five or six more at the moment, but they're not that big yet. 

00:27:42,604 --> 00:27:45,484 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So also there, the big ones are in 

00:27:46,784 --> 00:27:49,484 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
France, are in Germany, Poland- 

00:27:49,484 --> 00:27:50,504 [Martijn Meerman]
Yep 

00:27:50,504 --> 00:27:51,104 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... the Nordics. 

00:27:52,804 --> 00:27:53,284 [Martijn Meerman]
So- 

00:27:53,284 --> 00:27:54,344 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You have to go out. 

00:27:54,344 --> 00:27:58,244 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. So to talk about the future, you started somewhere as an entrepreneur, 

00:27:59,424 --> 00:28:00,663 [Martijn Meerman]
[ts] started Apovo. 

00:28:02,484 --> 00:28:04,784 [Martijn Meerman]
[ts] Now you are back, actually. 

00:28:04,784 --> 00:28:05,394 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Mm-hmm. 

00:28:05,394 --> 00:28:08,904 [Martijn Meerman]
Uh, strange to say, but you're, you're back since a few years. 

00:28:10,344 --> 00:28:13,444 [Martijn Meerman]
How do you see the future of Apovo as an entrepreneur? 

00:28:17,424 --> 00:28:19,704 [Martijn Meerman]
What is your, what is your purpose as, as- 

00:28:21,624 --> 00:28:21,674 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Our purpose 

00:28:21,674 --> 00:28:22,534 [Martijn Meerman]
... as to being the C- 

00:28:22,534 --> 00:28:22,884 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah 

00:28:22,884 --> 00:28:24,424 [Martijn Meerman]
... as, as being the CEO of Apovo? 

00:28:25,644 --> 00:28:37,644 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Well, we just mentioned those three challenges that I think the first step is, uh, it relates to, to a vision on the economy in general, that, um, 

00:28:39,043 --> 00:28:43,424 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
the so-called Rhineland Model. I don't know if you know that model. 

00:28:43,424 --> 00:28:44,264 [Martijn Meerman]
What is... Yeah. 

00:28:44,264 --> 00:28:45,384 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Rhineland Model. 

00:28:45,384 --> 00:28:45,584 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:28:46,624 --> 00:28:53,184 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, that is a model of, of doing business which originated, well, the word says it, Rhine. 

00:28:53,184 --> 00:28:53,334 [Martijn Meerman]
Oh, okay. 

00:28:53,334 --> 00:29:11,864 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Uh, so any, any company, any country basically connected to the Rhine. Um, from origin, those were family-related companies where trust and understanding and continuity of the company had preference ba- above the capitalistic view of making as much money as you can. 

00:29:11,864 --> 00:29:12,064 [Martijn Meerman]
Okay. 

00:29:13,284 --> 00:29:16,924 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So continuity of the company is priority one. 

00:29:18,424 --> 00:29:20,944 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
We want to be here in 10 years' time, in 20 years' time. 

00:29:22,424 --> 00:29:22,764 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Um, 

00:29:23,964 --> 00:29:31,204 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
and that kind of thinking means that you invest continuously in the developments that are going on. 

00:29:31,204 --> 00:29:31,534 [Martijn Meerman]
Yeah. 

00:29:31,534 --> 00:29:32,404 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And that's what we're doing. 

00:29:34,224 --> 00:29:49,904 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
So I have a comfortable feeling at the moment that with the crew that we have and the intelligence we have in the company, we will be able to make that switch where in the end, uh, uh, cyber computing, cloud computing, um, AI 

00:29:51,264 --> 00:30:04,264 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
usage, but also to create software by green design, uh, we will succeed there. And that means that we will probably grow a little bit, not hugely, because that, that would not be logical, but- 

00:30:04,264 --> 00:30:04,374 [Martijn Meerman]
Interesting 

00:30:04,374 --> 00:30:10,524 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
... we will grow a little bit, um, with the focus on, let's say, uh, uh, a social 

00:30:11,624 --> 00:30:12,284 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
profitability. 

00:30:14,264 --> 00:30:20,964 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Profitability that invest, basically allows you to invest continuously, um, and, and create continuity. 

00:30:20,964 --> 00:30:23,624 [Martijn Meerman]
To stay. Yeah. Apovo is here to stay. 

00:30:23,624 --> 00:30:31,024 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yeah. This is what our customers should expect because if they have a deal with us, it's usually for 10 to 20, 

00:30:32,504 --> 00:30:34,534 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
already 25 years [laughs] in some cases. 

00:30:34,534 --> 00:30:35,704 [Martijn Meerman]
[laughs] Yes, of course. Yeah. 

00:30:35,704 --> 00:30:36,324 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
I mean- 

00:30:36,324 --> 00:30:37,544 [Martijn Meerman]
You need to be reliable. 

00:30:37,544 --> 00:30:37,784 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
You need to be reliable. 

00:30:37,784 --> 00:30:40,194 [Martijn Meerman]
Not to be... Yeah. It's not a trendy thing that you do. 

00:30:40,194 --> 00:30:40,244 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
No. 

00:30:40,244 --> 00:30:42,114 [Martijn Meerman]
It's, it needs to be there in the future. 

00:30:43,344 --> 00:30:45,884 [Martijn Meerman]
Well, that's a good thing to, to look at. 

00:30:46,974 --> 00:30:50,124 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
And if it's 25 years, then I probably won't be there. [laughs] 

00:30:50,124 --> 00:30:52,594 [Martijn Meerman]
You never, you never know. [laughs] 

00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:52,604 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[laughs] 

00:30:52,604 --> 00:30:53,984 [Martijn Meerman]
But you will be remembered as the- 

00:30:55,134 --> 00:30:55,134 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[laughs] 

00:30:55,134 --> 00:30:58,524 [Martijn Meerman]
... the entrepreneur who started Apovo at the first. 

00:30:58,524 --> 00:30:58,534 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Yes. 

00:30:58,534 --> 00:30:59,504 [Martijn Meerman]
Well, thank you very much. 

00:30:59,504 --> 00:31:00,284 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
Thank you so much. 

00:31:02,064 --> 00:31:04,264 [Willem Jan Groenewoud]
[outro jingle]