Studio Ab Ovo - Ernie Dullaard of DB Cargo and Edwin Visser of Ab Ovo about 30 years of partnership

40 Years of Rail Freight Innovation: Ernie Dullaard on the Evolution of DB Cargo and RCS

How do you modernize an entire rail freight operation while the industry around you is transforming?

In this episode of Studio Ab Ovo, Edwin Visser sits down with Ernie Dullaard, who concludes an extraordinary career of more than forty years at DB Cargo Netherlands. Having witnessed the transformation from state-owned railways to today's international freight networks, Ernie shares a unique insider's perspective on one of Europe's longest-running digital transformation journeys.

The conversation takes listeners back to the late 1990s, when rail freight was opening up to competition and DB Cargo was searching for new ways to harmonize operations across Europe. It was during this period that Ab Ovo and DB Cargo began a partnership that would grow into more than two decades of collaboration.

Ernie reflects on the birth of RCS (Rail Cargo System), Ab Ovo's integrated rail freight management platform, and explains why the system became such a critical part of DB Cargo's daily operations. Together, they explore how RCS evolved alongside the business, adapting to organizational change, new European regulations, centralized operations, and ever-changing customer demands.

The discussion goes far beyond software. It explores how technology supports business transformation, why integrated processes outperform disconnected systems, and how digital tools can empower employees both in the office and in the field.

Among the topics discussed are:

• The evolution of European rail freight over the past four decades
• How Ab Ovo and DB Cargo built a partnership spanning more than 25 years
• Why RCS was selected as DB Cargo's operational platform
• The importance of integrating the complete order-to-cash process
• How digital planning improves operational efficiency and resource utilization
• Transforming from decentralized organizations to centralized European operations
• Keeping mission-critical software relevant while business processes continue to evolve
• The role of integrations with modern enterprise systems
• Mobile applications for real-time damage reporting and field operations
• The challenges of digital transformation, user adoption and organizational change
• Why technology succeeds only when people embrace it

Throughout the conversation, Ernie shares practical lessons from decades of experience in freight operations. His reflections show that successful digital transformation is not simply about replacing legacy software; it is about understanding operational processes, supporting people, and continuously adapting to changing business realities.

For anyone interested in rail freight, logistics, enterprise software, or digital transformation, this episode offers a rare look behind the scenes of one of Europe's longest-standing customer partnerships in mission-critical logistics software.

Guest: Ernie Dullaard, DB Cargo Netherlands
Host: Edwin Visser

#StudioAbOvo #AbOvo #ErnieDullaard #DBCargo #RailFreight #Logistics #DigitalTransformation #EnterpriseSoftware #RailwayTechnology #SupplyChain #Innovation #ProcessImprovement #MissionCritical #Transportation #SoftwareDevelopment #CustomerPartnership #FreightRail #Operations #RailLogistics #DigitalInnovation

Our mission is to improve the operational processes, to support the sustainability targets, and enhance the profitability of our customers with more efficient resource usage and streamlined processes.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome uh Ernie and thank you for being here. Um well let's first start off with uh a small introduction. Yes. Can you uh tell us who you are?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Well my name is Ernie de Laert, and uh yes, I have a look now to my retirement within a couple of weeks. Frankly speaking, I have a lot of uh uh holiday days, lead days of leave. But officially the first of December, I will leave uh the company TB Kaker in Netherland, and I work over there for more than 40 years in several jobs. More than 40 years, that's quite a long time. So really a long time, yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Uh can you tell me a bit about how it was like for you when you started out in the real industry? Because I can imagine the real industry was completely different back then, or was it the same?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Or yes, it was completely different. So we were state-owned companies, several state-owned companies within Europe. There was no private company at all. So separate railway undertakings, no profits, so state-owned. Uh, you can compare it to the NS, the the the real Dutch company, state-owned. We have Deutsche Bahn. Okay, that was the world in that times. Uh, okay, in the around about 2000, 2000, yeah, the beginning of 2000 is the limit. We uh the first uh private-owned companies uh let's show their uh performance on the tracks, and yes, uh then uh we have to change.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So around 2000, and I believe that's also around about the time that you got to know Apovo, that your first experience Apovo was.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yes, really a long time ago. So it was 27 years ago, 1999. I met for the first time uh uh the former directors of Apovo, Ronald Sand and Wilhelm Jan Grunewald, as uh kind of program manager. So there was a rough planning, there were some ideas from uh to yes, some ideas to work together, close together with our German colleagues uh workable at DB Cargo in the time. So um there was there was a project, and this project was only have a look on the German systems. And what are the possibilities, what are the functionalities, and what is possible to adopt these systems and what will bring it? What are the profits? What are the disadvantages, etc.?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

So there was uh a planned merger between the Dutch companies and the German companies, and you were looking at the IT systems, yes, and how to merge those properties together.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Okay, yes. That was that was the idea. There was no decision. So there was no token decision. Okay, you have to adopt the systems, or we will merge. The merge was the 1st of January 2000, that was the first date that Reliant Benelux was born. Yes, we got a new name. Uh, former name was the Dutch-owned Ennus Cargo, the Freight Department of the Dutch state-owned railway company. And uh yes, in that times uh Relian Benelux was born, and there was a planning. The name was not known, it was known in October 1999, yes. Then we've got the new name of the company Aurelian. But then, okay, have a look at which systems are usable for the Dutch department of Aurelian. Yeah, so that's where you met Upova for the first time. For the first time. After that, they took over our completely RT management. So Ronald Sand was our former uh manager RT, Michael van Heimert, etc.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah. Okay, so that's a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Really a long time ago, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, um, and then from there at some point uh Rayon Benelux did need a new. I'm sorry. Rayon Benelux did need uh a new IT system, yeah, and that's where the RCS system actually was born. It was in very close cooperation with uh Ruyan Benelux back then now. Yes, I believe also around 2000 that that already started.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, roundabout. So some years later. So it was 2003-2004. So we uh we used the old uh Swede system Bravo called called Bravo, and the system was old. So we were looking for a more efficient way of producing, for planning our resources, and uh so we have a look to an uh a new system, and yes, we offered several suppliers for okay, bring your ID, bring your proposals, and we make our choice for RCS.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

So you made a choice for RCS, and that's a system built by Apovo for um William. Yeah, can you remember what the the reason was uh for choosing Upovo back then?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

You know, yes, you were known in our company, so you took over our uh IT department, the management of it. So there was an actual uh uh situation, you uh had the knowledge of our actual processes in their times. You know the culture, you know our company. So uh and then your offer was better to the others. I sorry, but I can remember uh the name of the other suppliers, but uh was an a company in Fraser, Fraser Williams, Fraser Williams in Liverpool, and uh quite another parties.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

I can remember that, but your had really uh when we have a look at the functionality, really the best uh uh proposal with our RCS, yes, and that's already 27 years, 20 well that's 2026 or 26 ish years ago, 20 plus years ago. Yes. I actually joined up over somewhere around 2012, and so I sometimes feel like I've got RCS work ready born. Um but I remember when I got into the company um the stories about how RCS was built uh in the basement of um well in in Utrecht in a very nice monumental uh building at uh do you also have active memories about that period where that development was taking place? Were you involved in that as well?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Uh I was involved in a selection, but not in the development of RCS. No, really a pity. In that times I was product manager in Tomato at uh at at Aurelium Benelux, so a very heavy, busy uh job, and uh so there was really really a pity for me, but a lack of capacity to spend my energy to this project.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Okay, yeah. So then uh, but later on, more as a user and a process owner, you were brought back into RCS, of course. Can you tell me a bit more about your role within um uh your company? So you were a product manager of intermodal?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Yes, yes. My I was uh my I have the most experience in intermodal traffic, and um my really my former job was product manager intermodal. I did this job till 2009-2010, and then I switched to uh IT. So I was member of the great Master Plan IT within DB Cargo, no DB Schenker in the meantime, so we're so we're getting from NS Cargo to Railun to DB Schenker. We've got Stinners in the meantime, in the meantime in the meantime, Stinnis then DB took over DB uh Schenker group. So the name was DB Schenker Rail, and but then again, you can compare it to the year 1999. Uh we've got a new project, okay. In the meantime, uh Rail we took uh DB Cargo took over Italy, took over Denmark, so there was an absolutely need to have a look on our IT landscape, IT tools, okay, to harmonize our processes and our process support. And so when you have a look to DB Cargo in that times, or DB Shankarill in the times, what you see is an uh a patchwork, and definitely not a network, and that is what we absolutely needed. We have to uh switch from uh uh a patchwork to network. And that was a really great project, Master Plan IT. Okay, to have a look what will which which system will best fit and will deliver us the right solution for supporting our common processes from order to uh invoicing it.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Order to invoicing, yeah. So order to cash flow. Yeah. So can you tell me a bit about the uh processes that the RCS product helped support, um, especially from the beginning? Because it's an order to cash system. Um so I understand that, or actually I know because I also was the consultant uh for DB Cargo, of course, for it, so I actually quite know a bit about the RCS system. Um so it has multiple departments working together. Uh we have the the order coming in, yeah, so you can do some pre-work, so you can already book your trains beforehand, and then you have the assignment note coming in all the way to the invoices. Yeah, um so how was that incorporated in in DB cargo? Did was everyone working at the same location or was the RCS system used across the country? How how actually so just for the listeners, how does RCS look from a company perspective when it's being used? Do you have different user groups?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Uh uh well uh when you call you have to look to the processes, and what you see in in the most companies, railway undertakings of DB within Europe, you see what we are calling here in the Netherlands old-fashioned processes. What are you meaning with that? So and uh um the the the the we start with the empty wagon, and that's what what happened now nowadays, really in Germany. So a customer has cargo and he wants to forward to a certain destination and he needs an empty wagon. The first step what he will do, okay. I need an empty wagon, and that's what he's ordered.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, yeah, because of course in real life.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Our customer service center in Disburg. So now in the meantime, renamed to control tower. I need an empty wagon, and the destination is uh in Germany. Okay, he will get an empty wagon, but there is no any link with the loaded traffic, and when you compare it to RCS, you see a full support. So we start with an order, and that's the first what we have. The first difference: an order only in the Netherlands, an order is a kind of uh um proposal. I have an ID, I have some cargo and I want to forward it. Okay, the first step is an order directly linked to the loaded transport, to the loaded shipment. So we've got RCS is delivering the order linked to the loaded shipment, and the customer at the same time he triggered us, okay, and uh request us for delivering a certain empty wagon type. Yeah, so it is a fully integrated process support.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So if um the order basically is your collection as from a process perspective, it helps you to organize both getting the anti-wagons to the customer so they can load it, uh, but also at a very early stage already thinking about well, at some point they're going to be loaded, so they also need to be planned on a train that to get out, so it links all those processes together, and that is really the great profits of RCS that we are able to plan in advance, for example, for next week.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

What's going on? What can we expect? So we are in uh available and uh prepared for okay. Do we need an a local serving of a customer? Yes or no, tomorrow, tomorrow of next week. How many engines did we need? What is the total weight, the estimated weight? Uh, so we are able to plan our resources on a more and better efficient way. Then we have a look to the other uh uh systems uh what uh our uh colleagues in Europe are using now.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, yeah, because I um remember you also telling me that you saw other companies, other systems, yeah. Um and that sometimes um it's a bit difficult to explain this notion of the order because it's so different from what they are using. They are using you have the consignment note, and that's the order, but the process before that is completely separated. So that's uh a big difference between uh RCS and those other systems, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, but over the years, because um well RCS was was first built and implemented and being used by uh DB Cargo or DB Schenker back then or whatever name it was in that period. Yeah, um, over the years your processes also changed quite a bit, I imagine. Um and did RCS uh change along with you, or did it have the flexibility to to uh accommodate all those process changes?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Uh yes and no. So we have a look to uh what is needed on the short term, so let's have the break sheet. So, okay, now we are um have to deliver and to use the EU, the European EBS, European breaking sheet. And what you see now, and that's the profit of RCS, is okay, it it's possible, and it's it doesn't take more than a year of a half year. Quite easy. There's a great profit. So it has it, it seems to be. I'm not a technical uh engineer, but it seems to be that it costs not so much time to make any modification RCS. But but when you have a look to the actual functionality of RCS, what what you see now um is that okay, it supports several processes, but it doesn't exist anymore for a production company, so we don't need it anymore in future.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

So RCS is is um it has more in it actually than you need at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

We started we started as we call it a full blow company. So we started RCS in that times. We were a full blow company, and what you see now, okay. What means full blow? Uh profits, uh uh Bill, you have your profits, and okay. And um that means okay, that we are enforcing our customers and we are enforcing our partners who are taking care of our shipments abroad. That means on Belgium or French tracks or German tracks, we hire them.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So all yeah, so in the full-blown company, you have contracts with lots of different straightforwarders and uh subcontractors, and you organize the entire transport fits into pricing and invocing, included, all of them, the complete chain.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, but uh db cargo has moved more towards what you call a production company, a production company of uh the big DB cargo. So uh to earn money you have to produce on the most efficient way, and that means when you have a look to the patchwork, yes, to the patchwork of DB Cargo, every entity has its own customer service, has its own uh transport administration, give it a name. Where there's a lot of overmatch what you need, and uh you can't price it to your customers anymore. And that's not logic, so it's more logic, okay, to centralize this kind of processes. So we started with with the invoicing. So when you have a look to deep cargo, uh, the invoicing processes are all centralized at our customer service center in Duisburg, and then uh okay, as a second step, we all centralize now uh from the first of June all other processes also in our customer service center.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

So all of that has been centralized, the process from from the localized in that sense from from the Netherlands towards uh where the mother company resides in in Germany. So those processes have been shifted from basically one place to centralized in the mother company, correct and can imagine that the production processes of running a train then of course also changed a bit compared to yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

What what is more important? Well, um it's your production part of us, yes. So uh a train composition we have to deliver to uh our local infrastructure provider. Uh we have to deliver on Hermes message. So um that that's that is now uh the the core of our of our uh system so there's an absolutely need. We have to deliver and producing train lifts and TCM or the train composition messages. But the order management, of course, we need order management, so only flexible order data. So what we know is okay, wagon number, load, and of course, when we're talking about dangerous goods, we have to know all relevant danger goods codes.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Of course, we need to have those remarks cargo details because you're also by law obliged to let them know. Yeah, so uh for those listening or reading whatever format this is getting out, um, the production module that's one of the modules of RCS. So RG RCS has a modular design, we have different modules. Yeah, um, the order module, that's where all the order information, the cargo information comes in. And we have the contract module where you have your contract prices and order financial for creating the invoices. Um and Deep Cargo Netherlands has all of these modules because at some point it was a uh full-blown. We call that domains, yeah. All those domains indeed. Domain, production domain order. And um, as the processes uh got centralized and shifted more towards the mother company, yeah. Um you can see that the the production module is still very much used and even has become even more important than in the past. Um and those other modules they're they're being used less, uh, but they're not not in the way of your um system or of your processes, or um, do you feel like they're also holding your back, having those modules still in place? What do you mean? Can you repeat your question? I can understand it. Well, um, we have the different modules, and in the past you had uh all of those domains and you used all of them because you needed all of them because you're a full-blown company, yeah. Uh, but now as being more of a production company, yeah, uh the core focuses on the production domain. Yeah, um, but are having those other domains currently in your landscape, is that something that's holding your back, or is it as easy as we don't need it, but it's we just start using it or work around?

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Um yes, I now understand you. Now so when you compare it to the old situation, so we started with RCS, RCS is the master, and now we transformed it to a kind of slave. That means okay, we have master data delivered by our order management system of DB cargo. We call the name uh ZAB, uh central processing order management system, ZAB. And we will get this information via the Orpheus database. So we have the first step is the pre-order. Uh, okay, there is a planning, rough planning of a customer. Okay, he ordered within a kind of custom portal directly in ZAB, not as a final order, only as a pre-order data. We built up two years, three years ago, an interface between the ZIB pre-order and RCS. We call that the Claudia interface. And when we got the final order data, the order, the consignment node order data, we have several names of it, we we got this. We will get this information via the Office message. So, what you see uh uh uh uh the um the master system is not anymore RCS, as you as RCS is following and processing the accepted data.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yeah, yeah. But in the where in the past the uh the the data was coming from internally, it was input manually into the system. Yeah, um now because there's the the the master is somewhere else, uh you basically disconnected that and just make sure that the data is coming in via all those different types of interfaces, all those types of integrations. But you keep the fundament of the business logic that you have in uh RCS and you still use that, yeah, even though you no longer are the responsible for entering that data manually in your offices, but it's now up to the coming from somewhere else. But your fundament, your business logic, and your business rules, that's still the same system you're using as you've been using for yeah. So it's it's quite strong in that sense that it has been around for a long time and but it's still very valuable, even with all those changes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's very interesting to hear.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Yeah, that was that was my large job. To transform this complete process. So not only to uh deliver a link to real, that is the name of the customer portal of ZB, but also beside that uh several interfaces. Now there was there was in former times direct interfaces from uh uh uh customers uh to RCS, uh, with some supplies innovation, for example. Um KL Wii. I has transformed this to ZIB. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

That was my last job. Um actually, one of the last projects I worked in as a business consultant um is something also related to the production module, but something completely different. It's um RIA or Advanced Rail Yard, yes. Yeah. So can you tell a bit about that? How that came to be and how that project is is being used to digitize this.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yes. Uh we started with uh damaged wagons. So for reporting damaged wagons for blue labeling, red labeling, uh, to make the notification by the shunter outside of the engine driver outside in the field. He takes his mobile device and the entry's damaged codes in the system. So everybody in working with RCS in the trail list, in the shooting list, hey, oh wow, what's that? I see a damaged code. So, okay, everybody got this notification, and directly the wagon keeper, wagon owner received directly out of RCS a notification of damage. And then, okay, the complete process of uh for uh a repair where startup.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

So when uh but it's the first step. This was the first step. So when a wagon master walks outside and recognizes that a wagon is defect, he now just takes the app and uh inputs it and it's automatically notified across all the stakeholders in the process. Yes. Yeah. So but how was that then before? Because it sounds so logical.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

What did that change? Uh well now we have real-time information from the right person, and what you've seen in the past that okay, somebody the shunter outside of the engine driver found the local dispo, the local pistol, enter his damage code on a manual way in a system in the system RCS in the desktop uh uh situation. And what you see is a loss of information. So, with all respect, but the local dispo don't have any clue what's going on outside on this wagon. He isn't educated and trained, okay, to recognize it kind of damages. That's that's the situation. So we take up his phone. Oh, what? Uh uh what's going on over there? And he typed in oh, which kind of damage code I have to type in now, re-bring it back to uh uh uh uh uh the person who uh was faced with this kind of damage.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, so the idea, the concept behind it was let's put the person who visually sees something, the person who registers uh something in the process also be responsible for the data entry of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

But frankly speaking, when you have a look to the old-fashioned process, you need over it within your company. Somebody have to enter this data on a manual way, on his office. Yeah. So, okay, uh, you need over it. And of course, you need over it, but not so much, please.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Do you think there are other possibilities? Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

So when you look to the actual uh uh task of the local dispo, so uh uh uh a notification of depart, a notification of arrival, um to place wagons on the right position on a track, uh wagon movements, local wagon movements, uh train checks, of course, why not? So and nowadays uh everything is found to directly to the local dispo. And he've got this message and he entered it in RCS. So again, you need overhead. You need overhead. So yeah, you you need white colour, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

For and for these processes, you already have the the people who know best, the people who actually have to do the work. They're already performing it outside.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Let them also take charge of they are responsible. So that there is a kind of process ownership, of course. But now you have a look, okay. Uh uh from who is this kind of damage notification? Yeah. Okay, a lot of success. Please have a look. Who's the right person? You can find it. Actually, you only see the name of the local dispo. Yeah. And you ask a question: I want more information regarding this damage, but okay, this guy of this girl, definitely not trained for this kind of situation.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

So yeah, you don't go back to the person who phoned in the defect anyway. Yes, yes. Was it easy to roll out a mobile application in the work processes? Is there any lessons learned or yes, yes?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

What you see is uh it depends on the culture within your company. So uh when you have a look, please don't forget that uh the shunt is outside and the uh the the Marshall is outside. They used to serve by a local discipline. Maybe it sounds a little bit strange, but that was their habit. What I have to type in by myself, yes. But it's raining now, okay. Well, wait a couple of minutes, uh, walk to your engine. Uh uh okay, has a look for a dry place for entering on your tablet on your mobile device, and then it's okay. But yes, this is the the what I see, okay. It was their habit of okay, I was served by my local dispo. Yeah, why I have to do it, and then a little bit fear, oh now I'm responsible. Okay. Yes. So it's so but only you can what you can see also uh when you have looked at the culture that when you take somebody, a millennial, with all respectful millennials, a young guy of 25, no any problems. He's used to work with a mobile device, but when you have an an engine driver with the same old as me, 66, 67, well, then you can expect some not problems, but some uh a situation that you need more attendancy, more attention to more guidance and a bit of change as well. So, what is that additional value value for you? Why you have to do it on his way, etc. etc. He he has to be motivated by and so when you compare it to a young guy, easy, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

So there's a difference in in in in age, language, culture, um, and how easily these mobile solutions are adapted.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

So and then as a company, in when you were faced with that kind of situation, as a company you have to look in the mirror. Do we start too late? My answer is, frankly speaking, yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yes. Wow, at least let's get it rolling and do more and more, of course.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Um there was actually this um other uh functionality I also wanted to ask you about. Um just before we we are recording this, we had lunch and we talked to one of our colleagues who's always very proud to mention that he uh came up with it, uh, this functionality which is called WIN, the Wagon Information.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, wagon information message, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yes, yeah. Um and you reacted quite enthusiastically about it as well and how it's valuable in your processes. Can you explain a bit about the WIM and how you are using it in your processes?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yes, as first start, we we we are we use we are using WIM as a kind of message of uh arrival, message of notification of arrival wagon. So uh we we select the trigger, you know. Wim, okay, the trigger can be an a notification of arrival at at a station where the the several uh customer tracks are located, and then every shipper gets connection to him, will get his all information. And what is the great profit of him? It's not only wagon numbers, what we take in contact with the shipper involved. What do you need? What kind of information? And he's really surprised what he can get of information. So it's not only the weight of the cargo, but all the station of departure. You want to know what the capacity of the wagon is, of course, you can get it. You want to know what the revision date is of this wagon, no problem at all. So, and there's a great profit of Wim. You're able to deliver all kinds of information what is needed for the shipper involved. Yeah, of course. As a first step, then as a second step, we are now using WIM to make a better connection to the internal terminal processes of uh of the shipper involved, and that is really great. So, you want to see okay, what do we have on uh you can not only uh uh uh an arrival of a train, a depart of a train, but also okay, every day at nine I can show you your park wagons, your local park wagons. Okay, and we will receive from you when needed, when wished, when demanded, give it a name. Okay, which wagons do you want? So, okay, every shipper can have a look, okay, what is my depot on park wagons? So I'm able to plan my local terminal processes.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

So it's all about transparency and data with all of your logistics chain partners and being able to well communicate openly about uh back and forth as well. Uh what do you expect, but also what can you expect from us? Yes. So that really helped me.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

And then not only on uh based on the shipper, so a shipper can see everything what you want to see and what you want to know. So when the destination of the cars of the real-time cars is this shipper, okay, you will see of every customer of contractor, you will get all relevant data, but then, and there's also a profit of WIM, we are able to split up this kind of information so we can make our choice. Okay, this information is only available for this customer, so we can connect WIM to the contract, and we will do that. That only a customer see only his own wagon. So for a kind of secure your competition information, yeah. Uh uh Wim is already fit for it, it's no problem. So it's so flexible, it can really flexible.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah, all right, yeah. Then um, just as the final question, um, that is this year we're celebrating 30 years of uh up ovo. Congrats. Thank you. Well, I I've been part only for part of it, so I think you you've seen more of Upovo than I have. I've been working here since uh 2012, so that's also longer than I would like to admit. Um, but when you think about up ovo or when you reflect on on your your um well basically your dealings with up ovo, you've you've seen upovo as a program manager for um when there was this merger, but also as an IT supplier, uh or business consultants talking about what change management. Um, how would you describe your relationship with Apovo or Apovo in general?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

The right helping hand, quite easy. Yes, quite easy, the right helping hand. So when there was a problem, uh there was no any problem though to solve it. So what uh the great profit of Fovo uh thinking with the customer.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yes, so thinking with the customer, so translating the customer needs or just listening more than that.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

So I I have an wish, a kind of a problem, and uh solve it a bit more. There's always some kind of additional value regarding this solution. Let's take Wim. Okay, only what I'm asking was okay, uh I need a list with wagon numbers and when possible lights. Not more than that. That was our old notification of arrival. No problem, and you can this, this, this, this, this, this. Okay, so I have now a complete information exchange. I don't ask for it.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

No, and again, let's mention his name. It's Marcel Veinstrake. Yeah, Marcel Feinstraff. Very happy to that he uh designed the system. So we can laugh about it. Marcel Veinstein actually also was uh even already um a colleague of yours on uh Pocket Quality because of our steel department, yeah. They also go back a very long time, yeah. All right. Um, well, thank thank you for this uh interview. You're welcome. Telling us a bit about your experiences with RCS and uh um with Apovo in general. Um enjoy your retirement. Thank you. Um I hope you get time to also do a bit of resting and enjoying your retirement before getting called back to uh to help uh out at DB Cargo or perhaps even at Opovo. Yeah. Um, and I really enjoyed uh this talk, but also the last years working with you. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Thank you, you're welcome. Uh plus please be aware I'm retired but not disconnected to our real market.