Brave & Big
What if you could live a Brave and Big life? One where you have great friends, a thriving marriage, a plan to accomplish your goals; a life where you’re fit, spiritually healthy, and constantly becoming everything God created you to be.
Welcome to Brave & Big.
We are Chris Hart, founder and CEO of Brave Coaches, and Joey Odom, public speaker, author, and former tech co-founder, and we have been friends for over 25 years. Throughout our friendship, we have had thousands of conversations, have gotten better from each one, and want you to be part of those conversations. We’ll talk about what it means to be Brave and live Big - things like grit, living with no excuses, following Jesus, being a great parent, spouse, and friend. Sometimes it will just be the two of us and sometimes it will be high performing athletes, business leaders, and performers.
At the end of each episode, you will walk away with a small step that you can immediately implement to take ground in your life.
We’re glad you’re here. Let’s be Brave & live Big.
Brave & Big
Vocation: Give It Your All Without Giving It Everything
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
You'll spend about ten full years of your life working. And the ache most of us feel about that isn't failure, it's futility: did anything I did today actually matter? Joey Odom and Chris Hart open with one of history's darkest illustrations of that feeling, prisoners forced to carry heavy stones across a camp and then carry them right back, and Solomon's blunt version of the same question: what's there to show for a lifetime of work?
The answer starts with a word swap. Not job. Vocation, a word whose root means a calling. Whether you're a stay-at-home parent, running a company, or making sandwiches, you are called to the work in front of you, and there's purpose in it, even when the purpose is just the weight itself, because you grow in proportion to the weight you take on. Chris tells the story of Michelangelo painting an angel's wing into a dark corner nobody would ever see, as the story goes, because he wasn't painting it for anybody's eyes but God's.
Then the framework, three principles that only work held in tension. Steward your assignment: it's temporary, so give it your all while it's in your hand. Manage your ambition: the ardent desire for rank, fame, and power will make you distracted by the future instead of propelled by it. And protect your identity: triumph and disaster are both impostors, and even your calling is not who you are.
In this episode:
— The golf update: what Joey actually meant, and using hobbies to connect with your family instead of escaping it
— The great job-list showdown: plasma donors, pizza delivery, Footaction salesman of the year, and the restaurant where they waited tables together
— Why futility, not failure, is the core tension of work
— From job to vocation: the word's root is a calling, and it covers every kind of work
— You grow in proportion to the weight you take on, so the weight might be the point
— Michelangelo's dark corner: working as unto the Lord when nobody's watching
— Principle 1, steward your assignment: temporary by definition, so be great while it's in your hand
— Principle 2, manage your ambition: propelled by the future, never distracted by it
— The paradox at the center: give it your all, but don't give it everything
— Principle 3, protect your identity: triumph and disaster are impostors, and even your calling isn't who you are
This week's small step: Write out your identity in Christ. Actually put it on paper this week. Then carry it into your work with all three principles in hand: steward your assignment, manage your ambition, protect your identity. The vocation will change someday. Who you are doesn't.
Be Brave. Live Big.
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FOLLOW THE HOSTS
Joey Odom — @joeyodom.life; www.joeyodom.life
Chris Hart — @thechrishart · @thebravecoaches; www.bravecoaches.com
REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE
Ecclesiastes on the meaninglessness of toil. Colossians 3:23 (work at it with all your heart). Philippians 3:7-8 (the surpassing worth of knowing Christ). Psalm 37:4 (delight yourself in the Lord). Frederick Buechner on vocation as the place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. Rudyard Kipling, "If." Jordan Peterson on voluntarily carried weight. The story of Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel. Our What's In Your Hand episode on stewardship. And watch for our conversation with author Jordan Raynor, coming in October.
Produced by Sonus Podcasts · sonuspodcasts.com
Welcome to Brave and Big, where we talk about living a Brave and Big life. I'm Joey Odom, husband to Kristen's, dad to Harrison and Diana, speaker, former tech co-founder and author.
SPEAKER_00I'm Chris Hart, husband to Molly, dad to Blakely, Cooper, Landry, and my son Brave. I'm Mr. Eelin, founder of the Brave Group, and Brave Performance Agent. Joey and I have been having these talks for 25 years, and we're better for it. We believe the same will be true for you. Enjoy this episode. Be brave and live big.
SPEAKER_03Gang, welcome back to Brave and Big Heart Attack Gang Gang. Gang Gang Heart Attack, man. So good to see you. Hey, we we did something. Um I'm I think I kind of did it, but I think we lost the golf community. I think a couple episodes ago, and who knew golfers had such big feelings? Did you see did you see this, Chris?
SPEAKER_00Man, not just big feelings, but uh they like to type. I mean, they they had some opinions and they were they were happy to voice those opinions and just come at you, bro.
SPEAKER_03They did they came at me pretty hard. Um, wartime episode two. I made a comment. And listen, Chris, we it was this clip on Instagram was edited to be provocative, so that's kind of on me. But the statement was when your kids are young, when you're in wartime, don't golf consistently. And now there are a ton of caveats here. Here's what we're talking about we're talking about like leaving your family on a Saturday. And then we we talked about recurring reference Luke Collins and I, recurring reference Luke Collins. He and I talk about it, and he said he's got young kids. One thing I love that he said when people ask him if he golfs, he says, I only golf professionally. How good is that? So basically, I'll golf during the work week with clients. But in a statement he loved is that we need to use our hobbies to connect with our families, not escape with our from our families. Which is great. So really good.
SPEAKER_00Is it called So are you are you saying all this to uh back the haters off a little bit? Is this your kind of public declaration?
SPEAKER_03Well, here's the get it tight, boys, chill out. We we kind of, I mean, they I mean, I got a couple like F U nerd, like I got a couple of those, like big, I'm not nerdy. What are we talking about here? But they boy, they they went after it. And um here's the thing. I know the haters probably aren't listening. They just like they just like um trolling on the um on the socials, but you don't get called a nerd every day.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? That's kind of fun.
SPEAKER_03It's been a long time. I don't know that I don't know it's ever happened. I'm a lot of things. I don't think I'm nerdy, but the other the other thing I'm doing here is I have a feeling that clip was weaponized by a lot of wives to their husbands, or maybe a lot of husbands to their wives. So I'm just saying, hey, listen, we're talking about any hobby. It's college football, it's golf, Pokemon cards, whatever you're into. Especially the last one. Yes. Yes. Um, whatever you're into. The point there was not don't golf. The point was use it to connect with your family. So many guys also said, hey, I'm I bring my my kid with me every time I go golfing. What a great thing to do. What an opportunity to spend four or five hours with your with your uh your file, your your children, your family. So I guess you're right. You're probably right. This probably is an apology to all the golfers. It's and I just I know you got big feelings, and I'm sorry if I uh if I triggered you too much.
SPEAKER_00And if your hobby is uh commenting on whatever Joey says, maybe just keep that in check too. You know what I'm saying? It's all good.
SPEAKER_03Also, some really yeah. There were some you the there were there were some creative ones too, and I liked it. It was great. But um, Chris, we're gonna talk, we're gonna talk like a we're gonna talk about vocation today, which I know everybody is excited now. Who doesn't want to talk about? I mean, what a fun little topic. So Dadgumit. With your glasses, stupid nerd. Yeah, it's funny. I the last time we recorded, I I was I laughed looking at myself. I hadn't like I had on a backwards hat, you know. Here I am, 46 backwards hat with reading glasses on, which I kind of laughed at, the dichotomy of that. But yeah, maybe something.
SPEAKER_00They call that they call that 40s, Joey. And we're in a buddy.
SPEAKER_03That's a great point. That's a great point. So we're gonna we're gonna talk job today. And this this is a this is a um this is something that impacts most all of us. It's something that we probably don't think a ton about, but I have I have some thought on on some ways that we can view the jobs we have. And and a little teaser, um, Jordan Rayner, we have an episode with him launching in October. He talked a lot about work and job, and it's brilliant for his upcoming book. So be looking for that in October. But we're gonna talk a little bit about that on the job side. But first, something about both of us that I really like. You and I have both had a lot of jobs through our lives. We've we've done a lot of things. So I want to have our first brave and big mini competition, if that's okay, between the two of us.
SPEAKER_00Here's what I like. You said make a make a little list of some jobs. What you left out was it was going to be a lengthy competition. Yeah. Well, my first list was like three things that would be fun to talk about. Now that I know it's a competition, yeah, on the fly, I'm still gonna come at you. So so bring it and thank you for the real time heads up. Come on.
SPEAKER_03I I almost didn't even prep you for it. So I think I did do quite a service by giving you some advanced notice.
SPEAKER_00If you're learning anything, there is a way to win. And Joey's exampling it right now, but I'm I'm gonna get you. Come on.
SPEAKER_03Hey, so we're gonna go. We're just gonna go rapid fire back and forth, naming the jobs you've had in your life. No particular order. I'll I'll kick it off. Little League Umpire.
SPEAKER_00Director of Heart Brother dishwashing team.
SPEAKER_03Wow, that's really good. Gas station attendant. Wait, so you wait, you beat out you beat out both Ben and Zach for that, huh?
SPEAKER_00For the director position. Okay, director position. They were on the team and I got allowance for it, but yeah, they they they knew who the boss was.
SPEAKER_03All right, I'll go gas station attendant.
SPEAKER_00I did not know that one. Uh lawnmower for Nana Gober.
SPEAKER_03Pizza delivery boy.
SPEAKER_00Lawnmower for Chris Hart Sr.
SPEAKER_03Uh partner in G and J Lawn Care Service Um in when I was in fourth grade with Greg Morgan.
SPEAKER_00Hey, Greg. Uh, I became the lawnmower for five houses in my neighborhood.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you are you just listing all the people that's like a single you're just listing all the people you mowed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can do twelve or fifteen of those.
SPEAKER_03Network marketer.
SPEAKER_00Uh pool boy for Christian retreat.
SPEAKER_03Construction worker.
SPEAKER_00Ice cream salesman.
SPEAKER_03Basketball referee.
SPEAKER_00Filing Biatch for Girl Friday services.
SPEAKER_03Uh this will hit both of us this next one. And I don't know if you actually call it a job, but I got paid for it.
SPEAKER_00Plasma donor. Okay. I didn't have it on my list, but also plasma donor. And the only reason I can say it is because I weighed a little bit more than you, and I got a little bit more money for my plasma. So that's pretty great.
SPEAKER_03Uh I'll just I'll give you a rapid fire of a few more, and we'll just we're gonna call it a draw. Waiter, sports marketing, student worker, candy salesman, DJ. Shout out DJ Clay. Shout out DJ Clay, Valet Parker, and on and on and on. You got a few more hits, a few more hits.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I mean, foot action salesman that led to foot action salesman of the year. I didn't want to just let that one slide by. Uh Grady's All-American Grill, where we were waiters together.
SPEAKER_03Bro, we were waiters together.
SPEAKER_00College director, youth pastor, intern guy, COO of an international company. And then I became the CEO of Brave Coaches. So just a just a fun list, Joey.
SPEAKER_03Great list. We could go on and on. We we've had a lot of jobs which I like, I love, and and the truth is, and we're going to talk about vocation, and I'm using that word specifically, and I'll tell you why in a moment. But this we work, this is such a huge part of our job. Whether you are paid or you're unpaid, you're homeschooling kids at home, you have a job, you go into the office, you you work with your hands, whatever it is. But we work like, Chris, I think the stat is something like you work a little over 10 years of your life. With the time in your life, you work like 10 full years of your life. And and the thing that I think as we get older, and there's some tensions with job and vocation, but the thing that I think that I pinpoint for myself is is a question that I think the core tension when it comes to work sometimes is a feeling of futility. And and futility is a feeling of pointlessness. Like that this is it is what I'm doing, does it matter?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03And and I'm not necessarily even talking purpose, but just like, did I get anything accomplished today? I don't know about you, like the the worst days of my work world are not necessarily when bad things happen, but when at the end of the day, I just think, did I actually get anything done today? It's a very bad feeling. And this this feeling of futility, that there's a story from um from World War II in the Buchenwald concentration camp that the prisoners were were forced to carry stones across the camp. They would they would take these heavy stones and they would carry them across the camp. And then they were told to go carry that same stone and go put it back in the original place where they found it. And so it was a form of mental torture, basically telling them that your labor doesn't matter. Oh my god. What you're doing is pointless and it doesn't matter. And we are far from, I'm not trying to make a comparison of our work relative to the to World War II. So it's there, there's we are faced with that same that same problem, that same question is does our work matter? So am I going anywhere? And or even even in success, like when people, we all know this when you reach a level of success that you dreamed of, thinking, is this it? Like, is this is is this all there is for me? So we're not just talking failure or success or stagnation, we're talking all of them. And this it's it, you know, obviously Proverbs kind of gets the gets the highlights from Solomon. That's the one people love to quote. But but this, you know, but Ecclesiastes was I love Ecclesiastes because he starts getting real. It's almost like in in Proverbs, it's all the wisdom. And then what he did is he applied his wisdom in life to just see, like, okay, how does this actually play out? And he has a line, and it says, and it says in Ecclesiastes, he says, everything is meaningless. Telling the wisest man ever to live. Everything is meaningless. What's there to show for a lifetime of work? So the question for us today, I think, is basically if we're gonna work, how do we make sure it means something? It's not futile. And it's I think for me, it's like, how do I make sure that my work means something? How do I make sure that I give it everything I can, but don't let it define me? Um, and just kind of un unpacking all of that. So I I'll pause for a moment, but but hit me with any reflection on that when it comes to this idea of futility when it comes to work.
SPEAKER_00I think your example of carrying a rock across the the way and then carrying it back, and I can't tell you how many people I think naturally feel like that. I I went to work, I clocked in, I did my nine to five, and I and so I think where we go with this a little bit is what I what I don't what we have to say is I'm drawing a line in the sand. I'm not gonna be the person that's just living for the weekend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm not gonna be the person that just can't wait for my next vacation and I'm gonna go cash my PTO in because that that's when I feel alive, right? That is the opposite of how I believe we're designed to live and and and how we get to live. And so I'm excited about the the conversation today because if we can really look at vocation correctly, and I think that's where we're gonna really go next. Like, what really is it? Where is the purpose? You know, we've we've talked vision on this podcast, and so what I'm believing is that what's gonna come from this today is that we look past and and can kind of really get futility even off the table and say, okay, I'm gonna do this every day, I'm gonna spend thousands of hours doing this, and it's gonna be on purpose with a purpose. There's gonna be impact in it, yeah, and then every day we've got the right mindset going into our vocation. And what if in all of this we really kind of get to that eternal impact side of things? I'm fulfilled here on earth, and I know that what I'm doing for a substantial part of every day really has impact that goes beyond right now.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so good. So the first the first goes into Chris, the first goes into rethinking through the work that we do. And I and I want us to think through instead of this idea of job, I want us to think through the word vocation. And and I think words are really important, but we all think of vocation, kind of the fancy word for what you do, what your job is. But that the the root of that word vocation, it originally referred to a religious calling. This is something that you were drawn into. That this this usually, you know, at the beginning, this this began with priests going into the priesthood. This was a calling that they felt that they were drawn into. And so this is all of us listening, you have a vocation right now. This is again, whether you are a stay-at-home mom, a stay-at-home dad, whether you're a high-powered executive, whether you work on a on a you know, the line at a restaurant, whatever you do, no matter what it is, I want you to retitle in your brain from job to vocation. And I want you to recognize with that one underlying truth in all of this is that you, no matter where you are right now, you are called into your vocation. That you are called into your vocation. And we're gonna get into the temporary nature of vocations in a little bit, but just recognize, and Chris, what would happen if somebody walked into whatever they had, whatever their job was, and said, like, I am called to this vocation today while I'm here.
SPEAKER_00Well, this is the whole what's in your hand.
SPEAKER_03That's right.
SPEAKER_00Right? This is this is where I'm at today. This is what I'm doing today. And and because of that, I can come in with some purpose. And I and I like I like where we're gonna go with it. That doesn't mean that you know you work at Subway right now and you're you're smashing sandwiches, but if you walk into it on purpose, there are people that I can influence. Yeah, I I can make this better. Does that mean that that's where you're stuck and that's where you're always gonna be? No. Yeah, but if that's where you are right now, then let there be a calling to that. If your feet are gonna be there, let's be on purpose. I uh I like this quote: your vocation is a place where your deep gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. Man, people need you, people are hungry for you. Yeah, literally at Subway, right? But but then the the whole idea of this idea, it's like, man, you're you have a you have a joy about you, you have a presence about you. Yeah, and I'm gonna come, I'm gonna bring that where I go. And for about eight hours a day, a lot of times that becomes the the job side of the vocation. But I I love how we're gonna switch our mindset here. I'm not just going to dive into spreadsheets today, man. What's it look like to be on purpose and actually fulfill my calling because that's what's currently in my hand. And here's a great thing if that changes down the road, that's great. We're gonna take the same mindset into a new location.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Keep going.
SPEAKER_00I love where you're going with this, Julie.
SPEAKER_03We're talking, it's exactly that. Today, you are called to your vocation, you are called to it by definition. The second underlying truth is for you is there is purpose in your vocation. There is purpose in your vocation. Now, we it may be you may be in a direct impact, you may be out feeding the homeless for your vocation. Man, that's great. I love that. And you may not always know what this purpose is, and there may be a chance for it, just could be this is the the moment, this is the vocation for this moment that's going to make me stronger. Jordan Peterson, who I know is some people has some controversy around him, but he has a great quote around this. He says that you grow in proportion to the weight you take on voluntarily. Oh you grow in proportion to the weight you take on voluntarily. So your growth, the purpose of your vocation right now, let's just say that the weight that you they that you're taking on, the frustration that you're feeling. Oh, I got good news. You're gonna grow in proportion to the difficulties to the depth of that frustration. How good is that news? So it's almost like you can recognize the struggle that you might be feeling is the level of growth you're gonna experience from the struggle. So the encouragement there is that may just be that may be the purpose. That Peterson also says the hero all throughout history always carries a weight. So if you're carrying a weight, that probably means you're a hero. So that's so there's some purpose.
SPEAKER_00Well, and if there's no if there's no conflict, yeah, there's no hero. That's right. Right? If there's no weight, if there's no opposition, right? So I love the idea of us being the people that come into our vocation and say, of course I'll do it. I would, I will happily take that on. Give me that responsibility. Yeah, and I I mean it's just neat that so often we're geared to comfort.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if we'll if we'll absorb and say, let me be the one that carries the weight, let's go spiritual with it. His yoke is easy, his burden's light.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So if we'll operate like that, then of course I can take on more weight and responsibility and actually carry and move people forward. Yeah. Now, no matter what industry it is, no matter what the vocation is, people are seeing you carry that kind of weight and they're inspired by it. And I think that's a great thing. We walk into our job every day, ready to influence and inspire people.
SPEAKER_03That's it. I mean, if you think about the if you can start to think like, okay, I have I have purpose in my vocation, I'm called to my vocation, I have purpose in my vocation. Then you combine it with some you know leadership stuff that we talked about in episodes before, every any room you walk into, you're a leader. You think, okay, all of a sudden everything just shifted, no matter what it is. I think about people, the subway line or our mutual friend Adam, who's in operating rooms every day. Like what you have the opportunity to influence surgeons and people in the medical field by the way you show up and the weight that you're carrying. You just we just said this, the weight that you're carrying, what if you're carrying it with a smile on your face and grace? People know, people know that the things are difficult, but what if you're carrying it well? And that's the type of person I want to be like. And again, Jordan Rayner talks about this, and we'll you'll hear from him in in October. Um, but he talks about any task, any task, doing it with God, like God, for God. And so this applies no matter your vocation, you're called to it and has purpose. And so the question I think that that we have is is there's some real tension in all of this. And everything we're talking about, there's some real tension around it. And there, there are a few different principles, I think, on on what am I supposed to do with this vocation? What am I supposed to do with what I have with my job, whether it's something that I just job that I just got, a job that I'm moving into, a job that I've had for years. And I think the very beginning of all of it is that you are called to steward your assignment, to steward that assignment. And those two words are so intentional, steward and assignment. Because your work right now, no matter what it is, it could be the best job you've ever had, it could be the the job that you dread going to, it could be the job you worked your career for, could be a place you're gonna be there for 40 years, or you may be there for four months. No matter what, your job is a temporary assignment that will end someday, period. And so it is not permanent, no matter where it is. Now, this is this is good news, this is bad news for people. That may evoke some feelings one way or the other, but the thing you have to know is that this is a temporary assignment, and you have the opportunity to be absolutely great in it for the moment that it's in your hand, which leads into stewardship, which you teach which you touched on. But my favorite episode that we've done so far in Brave and Big is what's in your hand. And please go listen to that episode, it's so good. But stewardship requires you to say, What is in my hand right now? And can you do it great? Can you be absolutely great with what's in your hand? And then we all know, and Chris, to talk on this more. We all know what happens when you steward things well, you find increase. So when you can take this, when you can recognize that this thing right now, as much as I love or hate it, is temporary, which gives me an opportunity to give it everything I have for the amount of time that it's in my hand, and the end result of that is going to be increase. So hit us on that.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's go, let's go Colossians 3 23. You know this verse. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord. It just takes it to a whole nother plane. Yeah. Right. I I think about that story of Michelangelo. He's in there and it's it's late at night. He's getting after the Sistine Chapel, up on a ladder, and this little boy walks in, and and Michelangelo's painting like the edge of an angel's wing in the corner in the dark. And this little boy is like, Why, why are you still up there? Why are you doing this? Why why are you taking such painstaking effort into this when no one can see it? And he goes, I'm not doing it for anyone to see it. I'm doing this for the Lord. Well, well, now because that was his posture, it's one of the most well-lit, well-visited entities in the entire world. Do you know what I mean? Like people travel around the world to see the effort and dedication to it. It's one of the greatest things ever created by man. And it was created literally when people wouldn't be able to see the detail. Well, could have phoned it in. It's like, yeah, let's make sure the one in the middle looks great. That's the only place we actually have light. Now it's unbelievably illuminated. But because his mindset was, I'm doing this vocation as unto God, I'm on that level. It gets that level of appreciation from human. Right. And so what if we looked at vocation like that? Yes, this is temporary. He didn't do that job forever. That was a five-year project. As great as it is, but it carries on through eternity because of how he approached it and the stewardship he approached it with, which led to more opportunity, more fame. We're talking about him all these years later because his premise was I'm doing this work, this vocation as unto God, not to man. And what comes after that, that's like the bonus, the appreciation of man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. Got a ninja turtle named after him.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it could look it's endless. Could have been remembrance being the main one. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's right. Come on. It is, it is, it is so interesting to think, again, to your point, the thing that he never knew that anybody would ever see it, and all of a sudden millions and millions and millions of people see it, see his work because he gave it to the Lord. The interesting thing about the Colossians reference, Paul's talking there to slaves. He's talking, he's speaking to slaves in that reference. So we're talking about talking about a position they don't want to be in. And again, the the slavery is as we as we know it is different at that time. Again, both of them not good in any way, but it's a different thing in that case. But a place they don't want to be in where they are in servitude, and he's still saying, give it to the Lord. So do it as if under the Lord that you're giving everything you have.
SPEAKER_00Well, think about the list of jobs that we fired off with here, Joey. Yeah, the most recent ones are the most fulfilling. It's kind of like somebody being like, Well, what an overnight success. What are you talking about? You know how many 20 years of not my favorite job are in that list? Now, we made the most of a lot of them because that's our approach to life, right? You and me working at Grady's, we were the best waiters Grady's has ever had.
SPEAKER_03Crushed it.
SPEAKER_00Right now, was that our favorite job ever? No. Was that our our ultimate purpose in life? No, but was there room for impact there? Was there an opportunity to influence there? You know what I'm saying? So, so I like that Paul's telling this to people that don't love their current situation. You may not current hopefully you didn't turn it off because we talked about vocation and you because you don't like your job, right? That that's a lot of the point here. It may not be where you ultimately want to land. It's not what you pictured as a kid. I still think about being a rock star and think, man, it's weird. I can't sing or play guitar. You know what I mean? But but I like that idea as a vocation. It's not what I'm currently doing. I want to be great where I am. So I love that point. You might not be at the totality of where you want to end your career, but you can be great here, and you better believe it's gonna get you on the track to all the things that God put in your heart.
SPEAKER_03That's exactly right. I think I could trace, I could trace some of those jobs, each one of them as a stepping stone into the next. This propelled, this allowed this, this allowed this, this allowed this. When I got hired at my in my commercial real estate job, the president of the company told me, he goes, I remember when I remember 25 years ago, my son playing soccer with your brother Jacob, and I just remember how much how impressed I was with your dad and your family. And you just think like things, the way you're showing up to every situation you're in, you don't know what's going to happen, even impact for your kids later. So I I think this this idea, the first principle here is with your vocation for you to steward your assignment. And I think stewarding your assignment requires you to give it your all. That's the that's that's the punctuation there. Stewarding your assignment requires you to give it your all. The second piece is gonna feel like in diametric opposition to stewarding your assignment, and that is to managing your ambition, to manage your ambition. And now, ambition, and again, this feels like a contradiction because and I want to define ambition for us here. Your ambition is an ardent desire for rank, fame, or power. By definition. That helps.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's the art desire for rank, fame, or power. I'm not referring to effort here. I'm not referring to wanting wanting to advance. I'm talking about the ambition side and the temptation for all of us. The temptation for all of us is we weren't we're gonna want to give everything we have. We're gonna we're gonna give everything we have in pursuit of a financial goal, in pursuit of a professional goal. We have to really watch this. We have to watch this. And I think almost if you think about it for Lord of the Rings fans out there, it's like like stewardship is kind of like Frodo in the ring, and and uh Gollum is kind of like ambition, if that makes sense. Stewardship is an open hand, ambition is a closed fist. This is you pursuing something with total abandon without regard for the shrapnel that happens around you. And and it makes me think, it makes me think about Jesus saying, like, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul? Hey, you you may go make untold amounts of money and you lose your family. Hey, you you may you may you may advance beyond what you ever could have, and then you got people that you have completely stepped on and stepped over in the meantime. You could lose all your friends, lose all your community, and man, you got a nice house. And what does that really ultimately, what is that, what does that cost you to get there? Has has that ambition, has that completely overtaken it to where you have suffered so much loss in the meantime that it outweighs the gain? So hit us on that ambition because I because I know you bristled a little bit on ambition because we like we like pursuing things, we like running hard. So hit hit us on that.
SPEAKER_00I can't help but think about the rich young ruler who seemingly had gained everything and was in a great position, and even seemed like he was doing a lot of the good stuff, you know, and and Jesus just looked him right in the eye and said, Man, just go sell everything you have, give to the poor, and come follow me. And it as as um potent as that sounds, I think that's making your point here, which is like, man, he had gained everything. So let's take it back to the baseline, and it's like, what'd you gain it all for? I I need you to go help people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00And so so that's interesting. And then the other side of that is this reality that if if we're living in that ardent desire for rank, fame, or power, it's gonna be really hard to stay focused where we are and actually be where our feet are planted, yeah, if we're always thinking about what else could be or should be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'll be honest, there have been there were times in previous positions where there were new things stirring in me, stuff we're doing now that was stirring 10 years ago. And if I would have given too much to that, it would have completely taken away from my effectiveness where I currently was. So I want us to be, I think if we're this is where they go together. Yeah, we have to manage our ambition for the future so that we can steward our assignment right now.
SPEAKER_03So good, bro.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So if I'm stewarding right now, I'm aware of where we want to go. Like if I'm a five-talent guy, let's do the things to be a 10 talent, and that's gonna open up more doors, which is going to feed the good, healthy ambition. But if I'm getting ahead of myself and I'm dreaming about what it's gonna be like to be a 20-talent guy, I'm probably not gonna do what's actually necessary to go from five to 10.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's where these really work well together. I'm gonna be fully present here, aware of maybe some things got stirring, but I'm gonna steward so good right now it's gonna feed the future ambition.
SPEAKER_03This is this is I recognize, and I think this is where the real beauty is. Let's recognize there is a real tension here. We're talking about a real tension because what someone could easily do with this is this is a hall pass to be lazy. Oh, I'm just managing my ambition. Oh, I'm just protecting my family. No, you're not giving it hell of work. You got to give it all you have. You you really got to have to give it everything because here's what's gonna happen. Someone who is someone who has ambition for the future, but who is unwilling to steward what's in their hand will not advance. Somebody who is willing to steward what's in their hand but has no ambition will not advance either. So you're it it's both of these all together. They have to be together. And I think the punctuation I give on this, if if stewarding your assignment requires you to give it your all, managing your ambition requires you to not give it everything. You gotta give it your all, but you can't give it everything. It's both. You can't get it can't be one or the other, it has to be both.
SPEAKER_00Well, and being distracted by the future is a real thing, Joey. Dang. Right. And maybe that's how we look at that that ambition. The inappropriate ambition is distracted by the future, not propelled by it. If I'm doing it right, it's like, man, God, I know there's more, which means I'm gonna be great right here. And I can trust you with the ultimate destination because I'm I'm mapping and I'm tracking and I'm accountable to myself for my current progress. Right. But I will not be distracted by the future. Speak to, I like where we're going with this, Joey, because as this advances, as we do take ground, as we do become some of the things that are in our heart. And and I'll I'll just say this keep in mind, you're fearfully and wonderfully and uniquely created.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So God put real specific things in you. And then what the word says, is that it says if we delight ourselves in him, he'll give us the desires of our heart. So this plays real well with what you're saying. Like yeah, God put those things in you. So us dreaming, us being excited, us calling out for vision, that is exactly what we're supposed to do. We're not distracted by it, but if we'll seek him first and be where we currently are, it does say he'll give us the desires of our heart.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and I think the only addition to that is in the appropriate time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now we're walking in it. So it's kind of stewardship equals increase equals more stewardship.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00So we're walking in stuff now we prayed for 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. And it happens to be our vocation, which is amazing, right? That's what we get to do. But I need to steward this because there is more, and that's okay. I'm not distracted by it. I'm here doing it. So, all that being said, there is going to be progress. Talk to us about protecting our identity individually. It'd be easy to get caught up. I have had success. I am doing well. Some people know my name. How do we protect identity?
SPEAKER_03Well, and one quick note on that, what you said, I love that. Delight yourself in the Lord, and he'll give you the desires of your heart. What I am so grateful for as you allow God's plan to unfold. Man, I'm so, so glad I didn't get the desires of my heart from a decade ago. Because what because what's happened is those desires of your heart as you are growing closer to Jesus. Hey, that's the goal, is that it says in Thessalonians that that our the goal is for us to be conformed to Christ, for us to be sanctified. And so our hearts, the desires of my heart change over time. They grow more mature. I have the greater wisdom because spending time with the Lord, that desire to your heart is your heart, as you delight, the desires of your heart shift into what the desires of his heart are, his the desires of his heart are. So it's such an interesting process. Again, that's a naturally patient one. But the third one you just said there is that third principle. So first one, steward your assignment requires you to give it your all. Manage ambition requires you to not give it everything. And the third one is protecting your identity. This is again back to the tension. And this is where I love this. This is so much tension because, well, hold on one second. Didn't you just say God called me to this? Yes. So even your calling is not who you are. Even your calling is not your identity. This is an assignment. It's not who you are. It is it is not who you are. So this is this is things absolutely collapse for people when we mix up, when we when we mix up our calling with our identity. Everything can crumble on this. And so your calling, yes, it is absolutely sacred, and it's not you. It's not who you are. Which is hard to get. I mean, this is and I'll even take it um to to a poem, as uh as I the one poem I really often do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00As I anytime Joey's in a bit of a conflict, I'll say, Yeah, now what poem would help me get it? Yeah, what poem? Which I appreciate about you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So as I'm want to do. So my favorite poem, Rudyard Kick Kipling, it's called If, and he has one of the most brilliant lines that I can think of. He says that if you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same. How think about think about this idea of triumph and disaster both being imposters. And if you're the person who can meet with triumph and not and not rise with pride, and if you can meet with disaster and not rise with internal feelings of failure, if you can meet those and treat them the exact same, hey, you are triumph, you're an imposter, you're temporary. Hey, disaster, you're an imposter, you're temporary, because the rug gets pulled out from all of us when we confuse those two things, when we when we treat them differently, when we rise with pride or when we when we go down again with a form of pride, which is just beating ourselves up over something like that, because that's what we think we're that's what we think our worth is is valued on. So you have to, in the meantime, protect, protect, protect this identity of yours, that you disassociate that from how well or how poorly you're doing, but at the same time giving it your all and giving it everything, giving it your all in stewarding that assignment well. And this is hard, Chris. I don't know if this is fully, I excuse me, I know it's not fully possible to fully protect your identity in this. You're giving it a bunch of time. It's 10 years of your life. So how have you found in your life, in your triumph and your disasters, how you maintain your identity and all that?
SPEAKER_00Man, this is good. Uh I'm I'm agreeing with you. If we can wrestle with this tension, we're gonna like the outcome. Yeah, it made me think, Joey, even it with your poem, just that simple statement, this too shall pass.
SPEAKER_03So good.
SPEAKER_00On on both sides.
SPEAKER_03Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right? Man, this is the best day of my life. Okay, and then and tomorrow may not be exactly that level. Or this is the worst day of my life, right? This too shall pass. And and it's interesting because that becomes that's kind of our mantra in our coaching model. Yeah. You know, we'll work with people and and you do this every week, but I always tell guys, like, it could be the best week you've ever put together or the worst. When we get on this coaching call, my job is to level you so that we can take the next step either way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's how we have to live our life, right? So if you have a coach or not, that's what the Holy Spirit gets to do. That that's what we that's where we get to live. This is amazing. God, thank you so much for what's taking place right now. God, where would you lead me next? Or God, this is hard, this is difficult, this is unexpected. God, what would you have me do next?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It becomes the same step forward. And so, so now let's connect that. The identity side of thing of this is fascinating because if you think about it, it's like, okay, if I'm an accountant, well, yeah, that's not that, it's not like, oh yeah, my identity is an accountant, right? Could be, and you could go there, but what's what's sexier than that is, well, yeah, I'm a professional baseball player. Well, still not your identity. Yeah, okay. Now let's take it to to maybe the the max level. I'm a pastor. So it feels like there's this unique call of God because this is what I'm gifted and anointed, and we can make it very spiritual. And I think you can absolutely be called to certain things, but what I hear you saying is even then there's something that goes above and beyond that. My identity is in Christ, period.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if I'm a pastor every day of my life, or if I'm a pastor for 20 years and then I do something different, my identity is in Christ, and that trumps everything else. And then what I do with my vocation based on that identity is I'm productive, I'm influential, I have impact. The fruit from the proper identity transcends the job title or even the calling. And that's, I think, where we can have unbelievable, unmatched confidence and purpose. And if we're living like that, we are loving the fruit. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03Chris, I think about you say that it makes me think about Paul. This this is in Philippians, when he's talking about like how like all the reasons he has to boast. I mean, he talked about like he got like an eighth-day circumcision, which I guess is baller or something like that. And so I think that's really good.
SPEAKER_00Best circumcision possible, yes.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. So he's so he's talking about the zeal unparalleled, but then he says, he goes, I consider this, he says in some translations rubbish. I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whose sake all I've I've lost all things, says that he can be found in Christ. So I think about all of these things and everything we give. I think about him considering those things absolute garbage. And he says the surpassing worth, so the value is knowing Christ Jesus. So what if I want to leave somebody with with a thought here is what if the success you're experiencing right now at work, what if the difficulty you're experiencing right now with work are actually stepping stones into their surpassing eternal, infinite worth of just knowing Jesus? What if we can consider all those things? So when you're thinking about the futility of what you might be feeling at your job right now, what if, and again, good or bad, what if they're just stepping stones to something so much greater, which is just simply the worth of knowing Jesus for those of you who are Christ followers. So uh put a bow on the protecting identity. Again, if stewarding assignment, if that requires you to give it your all, and managing ambition requires you to not give it everything, protecting your identity requires you to not let it define you. So that's a bunch. Let's let's let's completely land the plane. We do it every week. We want people to be brave and live big. So as we're thinking about next seven days with respect to vocation, Chris, where do we think we want to land it on that very small step in the next seven days to being brave and living big?
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna go real big picture and make it real simple. I would encourage everybody listening to write out your identity in Christ.
SPEAKER_03Come on.
SPEAKER_00And if we'll do that, then that's gonna translate into what you do at your vocation. So if you are a pro baseball player, if you are a pastor, if you work at Subway, if you know your identity, then that's what we're actually going to insert into the vocation. And if we'll live and walk and talk like that, then we'll actually have the impact and the influence we want to have and take it up a level that's stewarding where we currently are, yeah, but making a definitive impact on where we're going.
SPEAKER_03That's good. You are you're called into your vocation, you have purpose in your vocation. So here's what you do: steward your assignment, manage your ambition, protect your identity, and fight that tension, all three of those things all together.
SPEAKER_00Come on. Hey, how about this? Let's go be brave and live big. It's who you are.
SPEAKER_03Okay, real quick, triple S for us. Subscribe, share, star. Give us five stars wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much for joining us this week on Brave and Big. Brave and Big is produced by Stonest Podcast and the brilliant Miles All Britain. We will see you next week.