A 61-Year Sentence Couldn’t Break Them - Fox and Rob Rich

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Fox and Rob's Website: https://foxandrob.com/about-us/

Fox and Rob are Sibil Fox and Robert Richardson, a New Orleans-based couple who survived 21 years as an incarcerated family. Rob was sentenced to 61 years in Louisiana in 1997, Fox led the fight for his freedom after her release, and he was granted clemency in 2018. Their story is told in the documentary Time, and they now continue advocacy through Rich Family Ministries and the Participatory Defense Movement.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hey guys, before we get started, I've got a quick favor to ask. I need you to like, subscribe, and share this podcast if you feel you're getting value from it. That's how we're going to get these conversations in front of more people. And just as important, if not more important, is your feedback: the good, the bad, the ugly. I want the critical information on how we can make this podcast better for you and deliver value every time. And if you know somebody in Louisiana who's doing big things in their field, industry, or business, please drop their name in the comments. We'd love to have the opportunity to bring them on the show. At the end of the day, this is all about the youth of Louisiana and putting local leaders in front of them and giving them something real to learn from. Now let's get it. What's up, everybody? It's your host for the For-Profit Podcast, Matthew Pierce, and I've got some very interesting guests with us here today. And their story is extremely unique, one of perseverance, strength, resolve, and the unwillingness to give up. And uh we've got a full studio today. I've got my co-host, Miss Laura My Gaynor, and uh I have the pleasure of introducing um Miss Fox and Mr. Rob Richardson. So thank you all for coming on today.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Thank you all for having us. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yeah, so we were actually introduced by my good friend Twee, who owns Bailey Braces. Shout out Twee, shout out Dr. Road, shout out Bailey Braces. And Twee connected us because you guys have a lot of work in this not-for-profit called Fox Family Ministries, which basically helps people get like people who need it get legal representation, people who might otherwise not be able to afford it. And then we found out the reason why you guys started this, and I was like, oh my God. And they are actually there, they have like a documentary on Amazon Prime. Go watch it. It's called Time. It's actually an Academy Award-nominated documentary, and it's an amazing story. And I would love to have you guys kind of tell from your perspective the overview, and then we'll go into more questions after that.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Sounds good. Yep. I think uh for those uh that are uh seeing us for the very first time, uh, we are collectively known as Fox and Rob, uh Fox and Rob Rich, and we're a formerly uh incarcerated couple uh who spent more than 21 years behind bars uh before receiving those four days. 21 years and four days because when Fox was counting them down. And uh that being said, um, we uh spent those 21 years and four days in our prison before receiving clemency uh from our previous governor uh in uh 2019, uh 2018 actually. And uh probably one of the biggest takeaways that Fox and I um really pulled from this experience um was the notion that to be free is to free others. And so um she prayed, uh I I cried out, you know, and basically saying that um, you know, if ever we were given an opportunity to um to leave this place, meaning prison, uh, that we would use any platform that was given to us as a platform to speak for those that didn't necessarily reap the same benefit uh that we reaped, you know, even though it was some 20 plus years later. But I left behind in prison a lot of people who I found there. And after doing 21 years, I left them there. So you you know you can imagine. And um so um at any rate, coming home out of that experience, probably about six months after I got home, uh Fox and I were um inspired to uh to start a practice uh of participatory defense. It is a um we launched a ministry, and through that ministry, one of our initiatives was participatory defense, but it's where we teach legal awareness as a best form of defense to people that are system impacted. And um that is not, I guess, all of uh uh what we do or what we've done. Uh, but we're also the uh subjects of the uh Oscar nominated documentary Time, uh, that is streaming live on Amazon Prime Video, and we are also the creative force uh behind its sequel, which is uh Time to Unfinished Business, where Fox uh has uh gotten her directoral debut on in this particular one. But uh so uh that is a uh uh I guess a quick briefing, you know, in terms of like who we are and uh I guess how we're on the uh for-profit show. Because boy, freedom is for-profit.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, I I gotta say as well, so this was your directorial debut, but you holding it down, mother of six, while he's in prison, right? Because you only served a three-year sentence.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Only I'm putting Laura Laura.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

My point was to say you had a lot of time where he was in there, you were not. Not only were you the mother of six kids and you eventually became a director, but also so you got a PhD, you were an author. Like, I'd love you to just list all your credentials for people because it's like not only have you done all this and you went you were going through so much, but you freaking skyrocketed. You have so many credentials. So I'd love to hear what they are.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Well, I don't I don't know if it would be like credentialing as much as it is. No, no, no, it's a good husband, right? I would probably say that one of the biggest things that I have accomplished in my life is that I maintained my family through one of the worst experiences that I think is known to mankind. Um, next to being a life-threatening illness, uh mass incarceration, which plagues our state, um, Louisiana leads the entire world in incarceration. We lock up more people per capita in than per capita than any other place on the planet Earth. And New Orleans leads Louisiana. So where we live is in the belly of the beast, if you would. And so to say that um through our work with Rich Family Ministries and our efforts, our program Um Participatory Defense Movement NOLA, we have given to other families um freedom. Um we have saved or we judge our success by how much time we save someone um versus how much time they've been sanctioned to serve. And to date, our organization has saved over 4,000 years of people serving time behind bars. And our national um organizations, it's 40 hubs across the country. We are the only hub in the state of Louisiana. We have collectively saved over 40,000 years of time behind bars nationally.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 6:34

And so um, when you think about um freedom, it just when you have been a slave before, when you have been enslaved, it gives you a different perspective of what it means to have liberty, to be able to choose what you're gonna eat today, to choose when you're gonna visit your loved ones or when you'll be able to make a call. Um, so for me, I think that the greatest accomplishment out of all the things was being able to maintain my family and um free other families, and then to go on and have the wherewithal to document my family's journey. So it can be left. What happened to our family in Louisiana could be left in the anals of history to be studied by others. Because I just believe that when we know better, we may do better as a society. Louisiana cannot afford to lead the world in incarceration. We could so better spend that money educating our young people, supporting struggling families, uh, um, lifting people up out of the poverty level. Um, and so to know that we instead use our resources to cage human beings is a disservice to us all. So those out of all the things that I have done uh are the things that I'm most grateful for.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Absolutely. That's incredible. And you know, I I think back to the documentary for those of you who hadn't seen it, um, you know, Fox served three and a half years, a long three and a half years for the same crime that she participated with you, Rob, whereas they gave you a 60-year sentence. And how could one justify something like that? How could there be no, you know, out early on good behavior? You had to wait and she had to fight for so long to get you released off of, you know, one decision that you made. Um it just it was unreasonable when I watched this documentary. How how could you say that this crime, without taking a human life, because there are more severe crimes, but deserved a sentence of 60 years. It was just mind-blowing to me. And how many people that this has happened to that are sitting in jail right now on maybe lesser things serving time uh that is just unreasonable. And that's what you guys really fight for, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:41

Without a doubt. Because um just when you think about uh the sentencing process uh when I when I got sentenced, um even after fumbling uh my lawyer fumbling the uh the original plea bargain that um that we were offered um for the uh for the offense, uh initially Fox was offered probation uh where she never would have gone to prison. Uh I was offered uh 10 to 18 years pend pending a pre-sentence investigation. It's where they kind of do a um a background check and see what kind of person were you prior to the transgression. And uh they make a determination at that point in terms of like the range of sentencing. Um but um for 10 to 18 years is what uh is what the judge had uh initially said, and the same uh for my nephew as well. Um but quite the uh opposite happened. And uh we ultimately ended up uh going to trial. Um and after trial, we were ultimately as first offenders, all of us in this crime, um, received a 19, 45, and 60 uh one year sentence respectively. And initially, uh the uh district attorney that was prosecuting the case uh ended up uh having me sentenced to 60 years and then he brought me back for uh additional charges for tampering with the jury. And in the state of Louisiana, when you tamper with the jury, uh you face the same amount of time uh for the crime that the jury is impaneled for.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Why did he think you tampered with the jury?

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Because there was information shared with him uh from one of the jury members uh that I had a conversation uh with them in a sidebar. Uh when you are at the uh when you're sworn into a jury, you're not supposed to have communication uh with the uh the people that are standing trial.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

So it was something you didn't even know, not to say.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

No, it was something I did. Uh I I pled guilty to it. Yeah. You know, um I didn't want to go to jail. Uh I wanted to share information that was being uh that was being refused to be shared at trial. Right. Uh I wasn't getting a fair shake in this process. So um at any rate, um the point that uh that I was making out of it is that when I came back to answer for those uh two sets of charges, and again, um just for uh context, you're talking about now that I'm facing five to ninety-nine years for each count of a jury tampering that um that I was facing. So I was now moved from facing five to ninety-nine years for the robbery, but now facing 297 years total uh for the three offenses, meaning the bank robbery and the uh two counts of jury tampering. So by the time I came back to answer for the jury tampering charges after being sentenced to 60 years for the robbery, uh I thought at the day of sentencing that at worst, even though we went to trial, we blew this thing and everything, uh, we tampered with the jury. Ah man, maybe they might go north of 20 years, right? Uh never in a million years that I think that they would step aside that reasoning and then say, I think that a 60-year sentence is appropriate uh for a person who's been uh who's ex-military, a person who is married, a person who is a homeowner, uh a person who has college education. I just never thought in a million years that um that one of our state leaders would sentence uh so harshly. But um he uh at the point that I came back to answer for the jury tampering, he uh ultimately ended up removing any um uh wondering that I had around it because he explained to me why he sentenced me to 60 years. He says um he gave me for the jury tampering charges, he says today is your lucky day. And I'm thinking maybe he's gonna you know re uh reconsider the sentence or something because uh I did you know put in a motion to have the sentence reconsidered. And uh instead he said for the two jury tampering charges that you're facing. What I'm gonna do, he says that I'm gonna suspend all of the years on that charge all the way down to five. And then he said, I'm gonna run that five into the time that you're already doing for the armed robbery, meaning the 60 years. He says, then the other jury tampering charge, I'm gonna suspend four of those years, and then I'm gonna leave you with one year on that one. He said, But I'm gonna need you to serve that one after you finish serving the 60. Jesus. He says, But the reason, um uh, but that would give you 61 years. He uh and and he's heading uh out of the door. Uh just as he gets to the door for effect, I guess. He turns to me and he says that he said, uh you ever wonder why 61 years? And I'm sitting there, I'm like burning on the inside, right? I'm like, wow, what is what is he doing?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:12

And he says, he says, Well, the last time that a jury tampering happened in our little town was 1938. And this was 1999 when I got sent it. So it was 61 years. And he told me, When you're in Angola State Penitentiary during this time, he says, You'll think about the offense that you've created that you've uh made happen here, and maybe you'll be uh so um inspired uh to tell others uh don't F with Rustin. Man, you're giving me chills, Rob. That's you know But uh that is what he was hired for. We have special prosecutors in our state that are, you know, they're uh they're headhunters.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah, they're not nice they're not trying to be the good guy and you know look for forgiveness and opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Fairness, fair, fair. So it is when you know that statistics and studies have shown over and over again that when black people appear before a court system for the same charge as a white offender, they are sentenced to five times more amount of time than the white person is. And it's not an assumption that we make.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

No, you're you're speaking facts, it is documented.

SPEAKER_03 14:17

And so uh I think that the best thing that is transferred into our work for profit is uh instead of being on the backside of helping people come home, uh helping people never go. And so the latest initiative that we are working on with our ministry is um promoting the sequel to our um first film, which is Time Two Unfinished Business and available exclusively at timetomovie.com is uh a pledge to freedom that we have commissioned, Rob and I, um, to get people to sign, to commit, to never compromise their freedom. We thought that we had no choice in the matter. We thought our back was against the wall and we thought we had no other options. But one thing we had to understand it, in particular as black people in the state of Louisiana, that no matter how bad things get for you, uh, it is never bad enough for you to uh um indulge in the commission of a crime because you will pay far more than you will ever gain.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

And I want to I want to talk about that prior to this crime occurring. Um I know in the documentary it showed your family how tight-knit y'all were, and I love that scene where y'all are riding in the car together and the camera's looking at you, and y'all two are smiling, and just look like a beautiful family. Y'all were business owners starting the first um hip hop clothing store in Treeport, Louisiana. You had all these things going on, and this wasn't a uh a crime that was committed out of a lifestyle. This was a crime that, like you said, it was backs against the wall, um, fear, desperation. Um what led to that? Uh like kind of walk us through that. Like, how did it ever come to we need to we we're we need this money, we have to go take this money?

SPEAKER_03 16:03

I think for me, if if I can start and then you can take it, Rob. For me, it was taken if you go back to that old biblical um the story in the Bible where it talks about Peter taking his eyes off of Jesus while he's walking on water, and so it was really like in the state of our crisis, we took our eyes off God from what's cometh our help. And when you um take your eyes away from God, then you think that you're in you're responsible for it all. And if I can't fix it, it's not gonna be fixed, and that's just not the truth. Well, we think we have the power to control our destiny, we are doing it all, and we are not doing it all. We don't even make our hearts beat, yeah. We don't even tell ourselves to breathe, it is all involuntary motions. You know, we can contribute to our breath, but we don't contribute to our the the higher power that operates our heartbeat at all. Yeah, and so when you think about that, then it has to tell us that we are not operating our lives. Um the higher power is operating our lives. And so just in that moment when everything else began to fall apart from us. Um, we couldn't see the forest for the trees, and we thought that this was it, and that you know, um nobody's gonna come and save us, and we better do this or or else it's all gonna be bad. And probably that piece and the other piece was the court of public opinion. How many of us hang ourselves in the court of public opinion? So worried about what other people are doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

So critical of one another. If I fail, I'm just my people are gonna look at me as pathetic and less than and all these things.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

For the business that was for our business that we were opening. And so, how can you come back from that and say, oh, well, we're really not gonna open what we said we were gonna open? And you know, because our investor pulled out on us at the last moment, you know, the house that we had bought, we found out was not just a uh a home, it was a hellhole. It had a cracked foundation and a and a leaky roof.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

So just everything all hitting at once, a bunch of storms coming in once, and it just hit at one time.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Our son took sick, and the doctors didn't know what was wrong with him. He was only one year old. Yeah, and so it was just like, you know, how can we? I lost my job. I'm teaching at the university.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

And this is a lot of stuff that the the first the first documentary didn't go into. I had so many questions. Like, I'm not here to judge. What would I have done? I might have I would have probably done the same thing in your situation. I have a young boy.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

But just to be honest with myself, I mean, I have a son who I love dearly more than anything. I never had a fear of flying. I've flown my entire life. Since I become a father, all I think about when I get on a plane is I just want to come home to my son. Lord, take care of this plane, get me to and from. Right. But it just changes you. So you not only had the business, the court of public opinion, uh, the financials, your home, the place that you, you know, where the family comes together and it's supposed to be safe and sheltered, things are going wrong. And and on top of that, a sick child.

SPEAKER_03 19:00

Um, I had they um I was teaching as an adjunct professor, and then they at the end of the semester, they just without notice closed down the whole um department.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

So it was just like one thing after literally another. Yeah. Young married couple. We hadn't been married but six months. Yeah. How old were you guys as well when all the time?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

So y'all met 25 and 27. Y'all met when y'all were 16. That was right, right? 16. 16. 18, huh?

SPEAKER_03 19:27

When the Navy came swept me off my feet.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Oh, man in uniform, all built up and in great shape. Yeah, I could I could see how he could have wooed you. You know, he's a good-looking guy.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

So y'all had the four children, and then when the incarceration happened, you were pregnant. We have the twins, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:47

We had three children. And then um, while Rob was home on bond, we got pregnant with twins. And uh, so by the time I got ready to take a plea deal, um, I actually um left behind um my twins were 10 months old. That's in 12. And um, and so I had to say goodbye to them and our other three sons uh to go and serve my time in prison. And so you talk about heart wrenching, lay in the bed every night crying because you know that you are solely responsible from having removed yourself from one of the duties you you were most honored to perform, and that was to be a parent. You know, I took mothering of it very seriously, and um, and so I was utterly disappointed in myself that the choices that I had made led to me being removed. It was one thing for my husband to be removed from us, but then for me, both of us to be removed from our children, I just didn't think that that was the best service to our state. And so, you know, but we um we have to let God be in control of what we cannot see and cannot understand. And um, and we often reflect back and say that this was so much bigger than us. Why were we chosen for the people?

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Because you wouldn't be doing this ministry, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:00

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Think about those kind of things.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Not just that either, Matthew, but because of the course of study that Rob had to go on to dig our us as a family out of this hole, excuse me, to dig us out of this hole, his study and research would end up leading what he thought was gonna be the way out for him. It was like a worst-case scenario. He calls me one day and says, Well, you know, baby, if it doesn't work out, I mean, they do have this law called geriatric parole that I've been studying. And uh, and as long as I serve 20 years of my time, now we're probably 13 years in at this point. And I'm like, 20 years of your time. And he's like, and I'm 45 years old. And I was like, 45. And um, you know, and I just was like, No, we're not even gonna look at that because it's so far away. We can't have to do that much time before we get relief. He was like, Well, you know, it's a work, it's just a last dish effort to know that I won't die at Angola um for taking five thousand dollars because that's how much we got out of the bank, right? And um outside. Of the bank because they got it right back after we went outside the bank, right? And so, um, but from that study, um, Rob would go on to file lawsuits for that um petition because when he got ready to apply, they denied him um the opportunity for the geriatric parole, and so he kept pursuing it, and everybody said he was crazy, everybody thought he was wrong, but he believed in it. I was like, Well, if you say so, baby, we're gonna figure it out. I'm gonna keep asking, and all of the experts said, no, no, he's wrong, he's wrong. And um, so we fouled anyway, fought it all the way through where we would end up getting out through clemency instead of through geriatric parole. And um, but we continued that fight once he got home because our nephew, who remained, um, we still had to help him get home. He couldn't come through clemency. Oh, yeah, I meant to ask about that. Is he out now? Yes, yes, yes. And so um, he is out because we were able to get Act 122 passed in um um 2021. That was an argument that Rob started, had started studying in 2005. We actually finally got the correct interpretation of that law in 2021. We thought it would help 400 to 600 people who had 30 years or more, um, but not life, it would give them a opportunity at parole. That's what geriatric parole is. And um, lo and behold, when it actually passed, there were over 3,000 other families that would have an opportunity to go home that thought they were gonna die in Angola because of the persistence and the undeniable, you know, the just the determination to not be denied that this man had.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

I want to talk about when he was away, what it took for you because on the documentary, I know you know, social media today can kind of be the highlight film, and the documentary did a great job of showing you being positive. Like I saw you calling in just to be shoo-shooed, like, oh yeah, well, we we looked into it, or yeah, nothing today. And then you ask you casually, like, oh, did you call today? No, we didn't call today. It went like the lady with a pleasant voice told you, she just like basically lied to you. Right. How did y'all just keep one another inspired? Like, I'm never gonna give up. Um, we're gonna keep going. How did you lead at home without him? Like, it just it just is so mind-blowing to me. And then the success of your children, um, the oldest going on to become a dentist, uh, one of the twins, I believe, was shown in like a debate college, I just how well it spoken he was and intelligent and articulating himself. It's like, without his father in the picture and this going on, like just tell me about that strength and just the things that you leaned on.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

You know, sometimes it would get so hard that when we would talk on the phone, it was like we could feel each other's spirit, and we would just bust into a hymn. You know, it's like, uh, I'm gonna lay down my burdens down by the riverside. You know, we we sing songs like this little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine. You know, you would just have to really go back to those soul stirring. I see why our ancestors, when they were working all day from can to king, sure, um, they would sing hymns because hymns connect you to God, the harmony of it, and would connect us to each other. And so it was really our faith that guided us through. And then we would we would remember or say all the time, my head was in the lion's mouth. It wasn't that I didn't want to rip that woman a new a-hole.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

But but I understood that my head is in the lion's mouth. And so for me to attack you, it's like in my head in the lion, it'll never help. Yeah. And so that's a level of self-control and discipline that you have to have while you're trying to ease yourself out of the clutches of this heina system that we have here in Louisiana that is so closely tied to slavery, that is slavery, because the very grounds that the 18,000 acres of sprawling land that Angola sits on, they call it Angola because of where they bought the slaves in to use it as a breeding plantation before they opened it up for to be the house of chain gains um in the late 1800s. So, you know, there's a long history there that so for me in my vision of a world off the record, it uh off of that subject matter is I envision a world when Louisiana repurposes Angola State Prison to be a museum and a wildlife and hunting and fishing grounds for families of Louisiana to come and and and enjoy at no cost.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

I love how you brought up that um it is modern day slavery because this is something that we talk a lot in my home about because my husband is black and he he really opened my eyes to really like what the prison system is. And I think it's probably because he's always had that little threat looming in the back of his head that it's just like you can't misbehave because prison is gonna be very, very bad for you. And he he's watched like a lot of documentaries about the prison system. He's done a lot of research, and he also opened my eyes to that there are a lot of like for-profit, like not that kind of for-profit, not not our for-profit, but like prisons where they make a profit off of the people in the prison. And it really, it really is slavery. Like slavery is still here, it's still going on. And there was something that it it feels so dark, you know, and so it's like, how do you stop that? Because you look at other countries as well where um they don't even really have incarceration systems and their crime rates are lower. Like I just think about you guys have an exceptional story and where the six boys turned out okay with you not in the home. But there are numerous studies that show that having the husband in the home is crucial to kids not ending up in jail. So it's like you're sending the husband to jail, you're stealing years away from those kids, and then those kids go to jail. And so you're just creating new slaves in a different way to the point where you can blame it on them. You can blame it on them and their choices when really you put them in desperate situations.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

I want to know what was it about the laws that when you faced your sentencing, what what about um you know being on best behavior and things that you hear about certain crimes and and sentences being cut short? Why were you not offered anything like that? What was help me to understand that?

SPEAKER_03 28:20

Before you do that, if you don't mind, just close the loop on your last question about how did we make it without him being in a home, I would counter that and say he very much was in our home. That our love was so strong and so powerful that it penetrated the prison walls. And then it was probably Rob's parenting from inside of prison, you know, and him not negating that responsibility no matter where he was or what he was experiencing. Nothing could come in between him and sometimes parents will say, Oh, I just can't because I'm this or I'm sick or I'm I'm away and I gotta work and though and and use those excuses not to parent. But um, I'd love for you to share the um pivotal lesson. Let's go into that. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Um before if I could. Yes, sir. The last piece I wanted to add to the first uh piece when you asked Fox, how was it that she was able to go through all of that in the absence? And um with all of the denials and all the other stuff. It made me think back to when you see me walk out of the prison and I have that never give up t-shirt on. Well, you know, they don't sell those at the uh at the uh canteen inside the store. Uh that shirt actually came from maybe about seven to eight years prior uh when I was in a graphic arts and communications class and we had to create a uh as part of our study, we had to create a campaign. And so the campaign that I created was that I was gonna do a uh a campaign on a t-shirt because I felt like when people put t-shirts on, it's basically like they become a walking billboard.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:44

And so uh therein I started a uh a marathon inside of the prison in concert with the marathon that Fox was running outside of the prison uh to bring awareness to the children of incarcerated parents. That being said, the never give I started doing those annually every year inside of the prison. I don't know if you know what it would take to convince a warden of a prison to allow me to train other men in the prison to run at a distance.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah. It doesn't, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

You know, they attempted to make a break for it, and they just you know, so uh, but at any rate, we were um we were ultimately able to do just that and then from it turn it into uh to an annual run. So at the point that I um uh put on my last run inside of the prison, I knew that I was leaving prison already. I knew I'd already gotten word from the governor that you know that he was gonna sign my clemency. And at which point, the last message that I wanted to leave with the men inside of the prison was to never give up. And so for every run, I would get t-shirts printed at our graphic art shop and then give them to the men that were participating in the run. So can you imagine on days when you got men all over this prison walking around and they got on these t-shirts that give off certain messaging? Yeah. Well, the messaging was not just for them, but it was also for me because every time I ran into one of them, and I ran into countless ones of them because they had the t-shirts on. And when it, when I see it, it was like a um a reminder or a rejoicing. Rejuvenating to say, don't ever give up.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

You know, and um even to this day, we get messages from guys in prison that are still wearing those never give up t-shirts. But um to the uh to the other point about parenting, um, you have to really figure out when you are inside of uh prison walls how to uh like uh redefine your role, uh your role as husband, your role as community uh member, uh, your role as uh father, son, um daughter, all of the things. Uh, because inside of prison, you don't lose that part of who you are. And um to that point I realized um that I wasn't able to be a dad, you know, and go to the games and you know, um, you know, throw the football on the weekends or go fly the kite, you know. I wasn't able to do those dad-like things, but I knew that I still had the power to counsel. And that is a part of fathering. And in the fathering process through um just my own background in studies, I started realizing that in this country that the average father only spends about eight hours a month engaged with their children. And I found that out from a uh Fatherhood uh Father um Father's Day edition of um of Men's Journal. And in it, they were talking about parents and you know, fathers in particular. And in this particular one, they spoke about you know uh fathers and their parenting and how many hours they spend doing it. So I figured, well, if I get at least two visits a month and if we get here early enough, leave late enough, I actually have twice the amount of time to father my children if I'm intentional about how I spend my visits. Wow. Always looking at the city. And the average father, yeah, you have to. You know, it's the way that you give yourself the hope because other than that, then you hope less. And that's that's a bad place to be when you're hopeless. And um, but that being said, I realized that you know, my role kind of became more like that of a coach because your coach wasn't on the football field with you, but you listened to him from the sideline. Yeah. If you play basketball, you know, your coach is on the sideline, a boxer, coach is on the sideline, soccer, baseball, all sporting events. The coach is coaching from the sideline, but he creates champions. You know, um, and with that being said, I knew that from the sideline, meaning from my position in prison, that I could coach my boys through um through, you know, what I felt to be uh a good manhood, you know, type of experience for them, uh, that they would go on to defy odds. Because uh, when you are the child of an incarcerated parent, you are seven times more likely to wind up in prison yourself, uh, nine times more likely to uh drop out of high school, but yet, you know, it's and a lot of other things. Children out of wedlock. Uh, to this date, we have no grandkids. Um to this date. Uh we have enough degrees. We got enough degrees floating around in our family, we can give y'all one. But it just goes to show that uh even in the midst of all of that, that uh that our children were also um committed uh to defying the odds. And so um, yeah. But that was it.

unknown 34:15

That was it.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

I think part of the the beauty of it is like how exceptional you guys are. Um and then the the downside is that most people aren't gonna be that exceptional in their resiliency and their planning. Like obviously, you guys are people who you just you you don't make any excuses. I would say that's probably not the average person, which is why those statistics are so high. So I guess like how do you guys deal with your emotions? Because I I can't imagine that you guys didn't feel resentment towards the situation. Wanted to feel like a victim or just I would feel all those things, and I was just like, I imagine that you guys had to find some sort of way to get better and to cope. And what what are those things? Did they come naturally? Did they come through some sort of process? What was that for you guys?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Yeah, I think uh for me obviously God is definitely very prevalent in you guys' lives. Yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_04 35:09

It's like uh like logs that used to be a part of a tree. And as logs, you just throw them on the fire, you know, and they become fuel for the fire. So my emotions, my anger, my rage, my disappointment, all of those things became fuel for the fire. They became the thing that motivated me to say, I'm gonna win. I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna get my lick back. You know, and uh it was just that thing that kept me, you know, motivated. You know, every time that, you know, a denial came up, I'd throw that on the fire. You know, um uh disappointment came up, you throw that on the fire. You know, uh you got locked up for something that you didn't do, you just throw that on the fire. And you know, you just kind of keep it going. But if you get to a point that you're no longer doing it, you know, doing that or repurposing uh things as to how they show up in your life, uh, then you fall subject to those things. And then, you know, that's that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah, and I wanted to bring it as well because we're like in a society, and I know that you guys, you guys have your podcast coming up that's gonna talk a lot more about family and what family means in society, but again, with those emotions, like we we're in a society where people will get divorced because someone doesn't do the dishes, you know, that that sort of thing can happen. There's a serious lack of commitment when it comes to marriage in our society. Um, and obviously not all divorces happen that way. Like there are good reasons for divorces, but like with those negative emotions, did you ever turn them on each other? And how did you guys because obviously you guys have a strong union now? So if you did have those sort of moments, how did you turn that and get back to okay, we're on the same team now?

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Mm-hmm. Oh, girl, that was a lot of questions up in there, Laura. I know, I know. I would probably reflect back to I am um, I turned myself in, I'm about to go serve my time. I just left our five children behind. And um the jailer drives me from the detention center to the location where I will begin my sentence. So it was a private transport, wasn't like on the prison bus and um when she went to drop me off. So um we had about uh almost a two-hour ride together, just she and I. And um she begins to share with me that they used to read our letters. And she and her husband, who was also a jailer at the parish jail, became so inspired by how we communicated with each other in our letters. She was moved by the love that she was able to read during the worst moment of our life, and um just went to went on to say that she was really impressed at the fact that we didn't blame each other. Wow, you know, it's so easy to point the finger at somebody else. And and when we do, the old saying says it's it's what four fingers pointing back at you.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

And so um I think that was really one of our salvations is that we didn't try to lay the blame on each other, but really take personal responsibility because at the end of the day, can't nobody do nothing to you, you don't allow them to do. You know? Um, and so when you own your life and own your journey as your own, then you um it gives you another level of power to navigate it. For me, it was always a matter of perspective, and so I would try to continuously study um different perspective uh of how to keep a positive perspective in my life. And and one of those things is my son taught me this word when he was studying for dental school, and the word was he says, Mom calls me one day, he says, Mom, I got a word for you. I say, Okay, what's up? He says, You're gonna love this one. He says, It's pronoun. I said, pronoun. I hadn't heard of that, but it sounds like paranoia. And he says, It absolutely is. He says, It's the reverse, it is one's belief that the universe is always conspiring on your behalf. Or what the scripture would say is um that all things work for the for our good for those who love the Lord. And so it was um the compilation of that and moving in pronounia that even when we get the denials, that okay, well, when we thought that we were gonna get out on 2045, because the the the commissioner of the courts had said Rob was right. Then the judge that had to sign off on it said, Yeah, he may be right, but not in my court. I'm not about to open up the floodgates, yeah, gates, and he denied the claim. And so um, I just you know turned to Rob and said, Well, we weren't supposed to come out through that way. That's because God wanted us to go through the highest way, which is clemency, so we would know that it was only him that got us there, right? And um, but just keeping the proper perspective on everything and knowing that as human beings, as Christians, as believers, as faith walkers, that all things are always working for our highest good.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

And that's the lens in which you you view the world.

SPEAKER_03 39:44

I have to.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I have to. Because what you what you focus on expands. If you'd have focused at, you know, this is all evil, you'd you would have just saw bad and everything, and you wouldn't have been able to see any positive or any light or any path to him being released. Oh that that's so big. Just mindset.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Um for us, it was like to think that we would not regain our freedom um was not something that we couldn't conceptualize.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

To think that he would die at Angola, that our children would never know what it's like to have access to their father, it wasn't an option. And so when we talk about for-profit, we're talking about the things that we really want to see in our world, then when we are thinking about those things, it has to be a point where we know um that not having it is just not an option. And when you eliminate it, um, the opportunity, the option of it not being available to you, not failing, then you have to find a way. Your mind opens up and it helps you find the way. You create it.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

You know, you you never grow and you never learn anything from an unstressful environment. I, you know, I'll take it back to sports and stuff. Um, if you got that lightweight on the bar, you can move it a thousand times. The muscle, you may get fatigued, you may think you're doing something, but those muscles will never grow, you'll never get stronger. It's only under test and under strain in extreme adversity that we actually improve. You know, when if I get lucky in business, you we tend to think, oh, I did a good job. That was me. You know, it was it was all me. You don't learn anything during those good times. Uh it's when you make the mistakes that God is really calling you, He's calling you at both times, good and bad, to lean on him, realize, give him the glory and the good and the bad. But when you make those mistakes, now you have to self-reflect. What could I have improved? What is this situation trying to teach me? And and you guys' purpose just grew to something so immense and so large on the impact that you're having today. Tell us a little bit about the day in the life and the ministry of what y'all are doing today. So, how all of this led you to what you do.

SPEAKER_03 41:54

I think Rob says it best when he says, I we wake up every day and just try to do a little bit of something, it means a whole lot.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:00

You know, so this morning I woke up, I got an email from the UK. A guy by the name of Josh emailed me from the UK to say that he watched Time last night on Amazon Prime, and he wanted to tell me that um he was so moved by our family and our story that by the end he was sobbing um when Rob walked out of those gates and how much our story meant to him. So he just wanted to check and see if we were okay and and you know how the family was doing. So, you know, that means I woke up this morning and and led to know this morning that last night I did a little bit of something that meant a whole lot. Yeah. And um, and I think that our days look like um just trying to spread more love, yeah, being a demonstration of love to other people in our community, that it is possible, it is real, it is absolutely necessary that we find each other, that we build together, that we partner with one another, and that we um make our families that that central force if we want to build anything, you know, if we want to build a better society, it all begins with our families, and our families begin with our relationships with one another.

SPEAKER_04 43:04

Absolutely. Yeah, so um there probably is what uh inspired um our ministry or the work that we do through our ministry. Uh probably two of the things that we found that is have been the most um cumbersome uh to our community is um is marital instability and mass incarceration. And knowing that, you know, that those things are um pivotal in terms of you know uh communities progressing. Uh we work to uh to serve as a demonstration for other people that are that are experienced and similar. And so through our ministry, we travel uh touring, uh speaking about our relationships. Uh we do it in you know basically every opportunity we get. And when we're not doing that, then we're doing the other work of um helping to create strategies uh for our families to be reunited um after stents of incarceration. Um so that is kind of how we spend most of our days, and I think this year is probably the one time that we're looking back and Saying that we gotta um we gotta get somebody else to do this part of the work because the other piece of it is uh the healing process. In order to get to a space or to a place of healing, you can't continue to go back into the thing that you know that caused it. And so to continue to go like back in prisons trying to um advocate for people that are there, uh continuing to show up at court dates for people and their families as they're trying to go through court uh matters, um meeting weekly with other families, and you have to hear tale of all of these uh gory details of you know what happened to them, what happened to others, and you know, and all those things. And it's like a uh a scab on a sore or whatever. It's like you kind of keep pulling it back and you keep rubbing over it. And after a while it gets tough over a period of time, but boy, it makes a mess, you know, after a while. And so with that being said, uh, we've been working now in a way that we have been trying to use media uh as a way to push our messaging. Uh it's a little less um uh in the mud, you know, so to speak, and uh it it it don't tax you as much. And uh after almost 30 years of doing this work, you know, 21 years, four days of incarceration.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

It will make 30 years since we entered this system.

SPEAKER_04 45:13

And see, that's what some other people don't understand. There's so many layers to the story, Matthew, as I was telling you.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

No, I just like I have so many questions. I mean, we got back. Yeah, yeah. We we do have repeat guess system longer than I've been alive.

SPEAKER_04 45:24

Wow, look at that, you know. And still, uh, we are working now to get clemency because at this particular point, what a lot of people don't know is that when uh when I got out of prison, uh I didn't like just get out and go free. I got out and I was still on 40 years of parole. So the amount of time that I didn't do in incarceration, I have to do the remaining 40 years of that time on parole. So I'm supervised monthly, I have to, you know, uh get permission to travel, you know, and all of the restrictions that come with it.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Still freedoms and liberties are being impacted.

SPEAKER_04 45:57

Exactly. And uh when you think about the parallels of the system, when Fox references the institution of slavery, and then you think about mass incarceration, uh, its derivative. Uh and when you think about how parallel those lives are, it's like you go from slavery to sharecropping. You know, it's a much different condition, you know what I'm saying? Uh even a little lighter in ways, but uh taxing nonetheless. You're still not free and you're still working to restore your rights. And uh so with that being said, I'm about eight years almost now on the other side of release, uh, but yet I am still uh sharecropping. I'm still so but at any rate, that is the uh next wave of our work and uh working now to uh to uh defy the odds. You know, a lot of people believe that we have a governor in place that will not sign clemency, so men have stopped putting in for him. Uh I just don't believe he's that person. Um I believe that he uh that he has a heart. Uh I believe that when he hears the uh the facts of my matter, I believe that they will resonate with him in a way that will say that this is unjust.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:02

You know, he's he's a man that has practiced law. He knows justice from injustice, you know, and I believe that um that the words that come from my application and that comes from the mouths of the people who will speak for me. Uh I know for certain that he'll sign my clemency, and I know that he'll defy the odds of a lot of people uh and inspire a lot of people to know that uh even here uh I can get justice.

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Absolutely. Where can people find you guys? Where can people connect with you after this podcast? So I know we've talked about um both the documentaries ones streaming or time. The first one is streaming live on Amazon Prime, the second one is at timemovic.comovie timetomovie.com.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Yes. So they can purchase it there and they can get this liberation, this freedom toolkit that we have created that accompanies the film. So families that are struggling with justice matters, that are justice involved, they can go to time2 twomovie.com and um watch the sequel to the Oscar nominated film and access these resources that are life-changing when you are justice impacted, or if you just want to get involved because you're tired of your state leading the whole wide world in incarceration. And so and our website is Fox and Rob, um, Fox F O X and A-N-D Rob R O B dot com. Foxandrob.com.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

I'm sure that'll have links to social medias. Are you guys on social medias, Instagram, Facebook and Facebook? Okay, Fox and Rob. Okay, misses the dynamic duo. I love it. I love it. So take that. We always ask, um, you know, our our podcast is called for profit, and it doesn't have to necessarily mean the the sense of the word that you think of in business. Uh you know, just kind of knowing what our objective is. Um, what what does for-profit, when you hear that, what does that mean to each of you?

SPEAKER_03 48:49

I think to benefit from your labor, um, we reap what we sow. And so my prayer is that we have done enough sowing in our lifetimes that we reap in abundance. What we, you know, the good that we send out, um, it it is doubled up tenfold and comes back to us. That is for profit.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Speaking of Matthew's heart right there. He's a lot of people. Yeah, you're really all the time to me.

SPEAKER_04 49:09

Yeah. Um, for me, I would have to say that uh for-profit, um, for profit uh tends to suggest advancement. It uh tends to uh suggest uh benefit from one's work or labor. Um but it also reminds me in it because a lot of times when we think about for profit, sometimes profit um seems to get a nasty name sometimes. And uh a guy told me one time, he says, you know that when you're on the right path or when you're on God's path, uh when you're doing a work, and he says, uh it's because it will profit you while benefiting others, but giving God the glory.

SPEAKER_01 49:46

Oh, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 49:47

When it does all those things, then your cylinder's all firing right. And so that's what I always try to work to do. I always try to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I profit from it because my time is valuable. Um, but the information that I'm giving is valuable enough that other people benefit from it, but it's only giving God the glory because I knew I couldn't do it without him.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

I have to say, out of all of our guests, that is that is my favorite response. I'm just gonna go ahead and say, I've never said that. You can watch all the episodes. Oh, you gave me chills. I love that rob. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

We brought him a trophy.

SPEAKER_01 50:17

We didn't have a for profit trophy. So we'll give it to him at the dinner.