From Fragmented to Formed: Building the Independent Alliance

The Edge of Influence is a new podcast from the Alliance of Independent Agencies (MENA) and North Seventy Five, bringing together different voices and perspectives to surface the real challenges and opportunities facing the region's agency industry and to advocate for positive change and real dialogue.

In this first episode, host Iman Issa, Co-Founder & Managing Partner of North Seventy Five, is joined by Clive Michon, Founder Director at Alliance of Independent Agencies and Nick Walsh, CEO Migrate & Founding Regional Partner, Alliance of Independent Agencies Middle East, to explore the rise of independent agencies and "the missing middle.” 

Together they discuss why independents are gaining ground, how collaborative agency ecosystems are winning integrated pitches, what network mergers mean for talent, and the case for industry standards. A conversation about giving independents visibility, a voice, and collective momentum so talent, clients and agencies can all thrive.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Iman Issa
Editor: Ian Carless
Executive Producers: Iman Issa & Ian Carless
Produced by: North Seventy Five & Poddworx Dubai

Transcript

Iman 0:17

Hello and welcome to the first edition of The Edge of Influence, a podcast brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. My name is Imanisa and I'm your host. In today's episode, we're going to be covering off all things independent agencies, the missing middle, and what happens when agencies come together to collaborate and form new types of ecosystems that really help talent, clients, and agencies thrive. Today I'm joined by Clive Michon, founder of the Alliance of Independent Agencies, and Nick Walsh, founder of the Alliance of Independent Agencies in the Middle East and founder of Migrate. Welcome to the show.

Nick 0:56

Thank you, Iman. Good to be here.

Clive 0:57

Good to be here. Yeah.

Iman 0:58

So we've spent a lot of time over the last few weeks having a think about and a look at our industry in terms of what's changing, what's new. And obviously, Nick, you've set up the Alliance of Independent Agencies. What was the opportunity and why did you set it up?

Nick 1:13

Thank you, Iman. So I think we're we're probably three or four months into the journey now. So I've worked in network agencies my whole career at the top of the uh WPP agency ecosystem. It became quite apparent to me that around the world there's this massive shift for independent agencies. They the the independent agencies are becoming dominant in markets in more developed markets like the UK, for example. But the the this region is very much still focused on networks. They dominate the industry here. So I think our data shows that like 85% of the work is done in uh by networks in this region, whereas around the world, it's about 50%. So we're kind of 35% over-indexed on networks. And when we started migrate, we did that very much with the view to how do we start to evolve and how do we start to expedite the in the independent industry in this region. And it became very clear once you started to speak to the indies, there's some world-class indies out there. They don't really have much visibility, people don't know them, people don't know how to find them. And it became very clear there was no um, there was nothing for the middle of the industry. There was nothing that held the agencies together. So you had a very, very heavy top. You had lots of small little kind of one-man, two-man-band agencies, but you had this middle of the industry which help which we felt needed to be brought together. They needed support, they needed help, they needed training, they needed a voice. So that's where we we decided that the alliance of independent agencies doing wonderful things in the UK and across Africa and parts of Asia, and we thought, you know what, this is exactly what we need. The industry needs this. We can bring everyone together as one, um, and we can start to champion uh independent agencies together.

Iman 2:52

I think also what you're talking about is collaboration, making sure that there's something new and an understanding of where to go, where to find these agencies if you're a client. And I think, Clive, this is something that you saw in the UK when you created these new types of ecosystems that help agencies come together, collaborate, and obviously have better visibility uh within the market.

Clive 3:15

The history of the Alliance kind of goes back over 30 years. So each iteration of it, where Nick is now starting in uh in the Middle East, evolves as the industry evolves. And originally it was a place where agencies kind of came together in order to discuss various issues, but there wasn't any sense of collaboration or anything of that nature. But as things have moved on, and really from the alliance's point of view, our COVID was the place where everything kind of gelled because there was a situation where all these businesses were having all the same issues of no fault of their own, and they had nowhere really to go. And at that point, you know, our membership was kind of fairly diverse and didn't it? But once we opened up the doors to say, look, here is their place where people can come together and share issues and be very open about it, all of a sudden they all kind of opened up. And it was the time in 2020 where our membership doubled because we were offering a facilitation service for people to come together and work through issues together, which was very different. It was in an evolution of where we had been pre-COVID, where we were sitting there and discussing issues and people weren't going away and doing their own kind of thing, but it wasn't that kind of sense of we're all in this thing together.

Iman 4:43

And what type of issues were surfaced during that time, and what was the result of them collaborating together?

Clive 4:49

Well, that the issues there at the time were were looking at those things from whether it's in terms of finance through times when you didn't have any income coming in, um, how to deal with landlords because people wanted to get out of office spaces, things like that, laying off for people, working together. We were running training programs for people who had been furloughed. So we were bringing those people together who had been told, turn your turn your computers off and we'll contact you when we want to rehire you, you'll be paid by the government. In the meantime, and they didn't know what to do, and we probably brought them all together. So we started to build much more of a kind of a sense of community and sharing through those issues, and now that has become much more in terms of now we're working, everybody's working, everyone's working on clients. They're starting to talk about you know how we can work together in order to deliver client solutions.

Nick 5:42

And Clive, I was gonna say, obviously, we you know we've been talking a lot, you know, the time to launch the alliance in the Middle East in a funny way. It's like Clive has said, oh, this was you know, the recent events have been like this is your COVID. And obviously, we did live COVID, but we obviously have lived for a pretty, a pretty tricky, tricky three months, right? It's you know, it's been it's been tough on everyone. But I think in a roundabout way, kind of founders as you are and and you know, leaders of independent agencies, it's quite a lonely existence sometimes, isn't it? You don't have big, you know, huge amounts of network to call on advisory and stuff like that. So a lot of the time you it feels like you're trying to solve problems on your own, you know, like oh no, you know, what should I do about this pitch situation, payment terms, procurement pressure, people pressure, economic pressure, got to pay the salaries, etc., etc., client access. Suddenly, um, in that moment, we have a community with like real practical value. It's like leaders that have lived here for 20 years versus someone who's been here for, you know, mean of recently, or people that have grown up in the region. You've got all this like kind of wonderful advice and people that you can call upon. So, in a roundabout way, at times of adversity, I think that's what we'll call it, right? The alliance becomes, as I said, a this community of real, real value.

Iman 6:53

Yeah, and that's something we have absolutely seen spending time getting to know other agencies, their skill set, their talent, having conversations, and also collaborating together. I think one of the things that we found really beneficial from being part of the alliance is learning who we can go pitch with, learning who we could potentially spend some time with, uh, really that kind of warm invitation of the network that's been created. It definitely has a really strong community spirit, you know, sharing best practice, sharing ways that we can learn together, talent development programs. And I think one of the things that's been really eye-opening for me coming into the independent space is just really understanding how much talent there exists within these agencies.

Clive 7:36

I mean, Nick, it Nick Nick, in his early, earlier comments talked about that he'd worked in the uh uses the expression, the WPP ecosystem. And that's probably how whole codes operate, you know, lots lots of businesses within a single holding company. That expression ecosystem didn't really exist within the independent agencies because by their very nature they're independent. But what we are doing and what we are seeing, that independents are creating their own ecosystems, and therefore they are they are connecting with each other where necessary. There was a work done that we were partly involved through an age group called Agency by Agency in the UK earlier last year, which mapped out the agencies in the UK of which came out. There are 25,500 agencies in the UK, of which at least 95% of them, they said 99% of them, but I'll say at least 95% of them are independent. Within that, they've now broken that down into 28 different specialisms within that system. So, you know, you've got so many places to go, and nobody can do well, we're we're saying most success when you stay in your lane. But clients are looking for things out of more than one lane, and therefore they probably need to go to two or three agencies. Now, other agencies that have got them all kind of in-house will say, Yes, we can do the best, but what independents can do is they can connect with the right people and actually do it in a more effective way. And that's where the future business models are going to creating more independent agency ecosystems. And that, in essence, is what the alliance is facilitating.

Iman 9:16

And I think that's a really important point because one of the observations that we're seeing, especially coming out of markets like Saudi Arabia and in particular some of the bigger remits that sit in our market, is that they want to have integrated pitches. So that would be potentially one agency taking the lead on a pitch process, but really needing to be well connected within an ecosystem of agencies to deliver against that remit and that brief. And I think that's when Nick, the alliance, really can come in and support independent agencies to level up and respond to some of those briefs.

Nick 9:48

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's happened organically, I mean, as you know, right? It's, you know, we never promise that new business is going to sail through the alliance. That's not what it's built for. But it's been really interesting. I think if you look at our community groups, we obviously had the Fast Five event, which was wonderful because we had 25 agencies do a quick five-minute pitch on who they were, and you instantly see the collaboration. It's very complimentary. You've got a PR agency working with a branding agency, and maybe a media agency will come in and complement that. And so, you know, naturally, someone sitting in one agency picks up a brief. And in the traditionally, it would be, you know, very much I'm holding this to myself, and I will only, you know, I'll maybe try and do that with a freelancer. Now they're going, okay, well, I can do this part, but what I do need is another agency, and I've met them through the alliance, and we'll work together and we'll pitch together. And we probably got three examples now where we've seen two or three of Alliance um members come together, pitch against the network, or a much bigger agency, but again, that bent strength of talent and know-how and quality has seen them shine through, and we've seen them win. And we've probably got anything, I don't know, six to eight live live RFPs, or where we're seeing that kind of integration and we're seeing agencies work together. And I think, you know, the region is evolving, right? The clients want more agility, they want more senior attention, they want more specialized expertise. They're demanding that, right? The region's changing as quick as you can possibly get. And when the agencies within the alliance, especially come together and work together, there's this mutual respect, there's this mutual kind of understanding of the objective, when that happens, more often than not, it's been a huge success.

Iman 11:24

Yeah, I would absolutely agree. I think just on the point of clients, and this is something we've obviously spoken about quite a lot, Nick. How familiar are clients with the independent landscape and how willing are they to move to potentially a more unknown entity rather than the safe net when we talk about 80% of work sitting within, you know, the known?

Nick 11:45

So to answer your question, that they don't understand. Again, we talk about navigation, identification, selection. There is an entire ecosystem out there. I use the same word again, sorry, Clive, but it does keep going back. But there is an entire ecosystem of agencies out there. No one's ever mapped all the agency units in this region. Everyone knows the top group, and they might know a couple more. There's a few people on procurement portals and lists, but no one knows what the industry looks like. There is no mapping of the industry. We're doing that now, as you know, and that's a really important um move ahead. There's this sort of feeling that you've got to be super networked and you've got to go to all these events and all these meetings, all these people. But actually, when you build something like the Alliance, which we have, it allows us to create some navigation of the industry. So, what we're doing really is we're trying to raise visibility, we're trying to make it easier to find the right partners for the alliance for clients. Because yeah, there's there's so much out there that people just don't know. And again, Imam, you and I have been in the industry here for 20 years, and we're meeting agencies in the alliance that are they're amazing. They're so good. They do, and they're so good at what they do and their craft. But if we've never heard of them, we've been here for 20 years. How do you expect someone on the client side to have heard of them? So there is an enormous, enormous opportunity, and as you can sense, this is why I'm excited about it, because as we build this, as we build this industry, um, the middle of the industry, it's only going to make it easier for clients to access. And, you know, that will ultimately result in better responses to briefs, better work that's out there, higher quality um work for the region that the region can be proud of. So, yeah, it all links together. It all starts with visibility and navigation for me.

Iman 13:23

And of course, more choice for talent as well. And I think that's really important with so much change happening within our region and around the world. It's really important that talent understand that there are phenomenal agencies that they can also go and work for. And I think just moving the conversation forward ever so slightly, when you think about talent and when you think about clients, what is it that the independent agencies are kind of missing in the middle? Where do they need to step up to showcase what they can do?

Clive 13:52

We have a uh situation in the UK that the uh marketing industry is not one of the most attractive industries to kind of come into. So we have to make it a place where when people come, they stay. So we work a lot with people in the entry level of agencies through through. So we've got the Green Jams where you get people who've been working in the industry for two, three years coming together once a month, then we have the future leaders group, then we have the diploma. We're working with those people to make sure that they have a career, they understand the industry in which they work in by having a network. So senior people who grew up working in offices, which not many people are working in full-time now, you know, have a natural um community. We are creating that for people coming in in order that they can come and stay. And through our training programs, we're trying to make sure that they are as good as they can possibly be. That's one of the kind of the mantras of the alliance is ensure that everybody in the agency can be as uh as good as they can be. So our issue is once they get in, is for them to stay. And through that, because they're coming into an independent, stay within an independent. I think there's a mindset. I always used to have a situation. If I was interviewing anyone, I'd ask them who else they were being interviewed by, and if they were interviewing by somebody which was part of the whole code, I said, you've got to go away and decide where you want to be. They are two very different environments, and you might be suited all for one the other. Doesn't mean that you're any better in one the other, it's just down to your personality. But because we're working with entry-level people, working their way through, we are keeping them within that independent spirit, and we hope that they will stay within the industry as opposed to leave. And I think that's just something that didn't really exist 10-15 years ago, but it's the issue now.

Iman 15:49

One of the conversations I always used to have with people was, and I used to be a strong advocate for it, that you would get the best training by being at a network agency, that we had access to the best programs, the best talent development programs. And I think now having stepped outside of that world and being part of the alliance, it's really fantastic to see that there are great training programs being delivered through this ecosystem. And what it means for talent is if you're thinking of coming over to an independent agency, they know that they also have access to great training programs by being part of the alliance. And I think Nick, that's something that your team is also working on.

Clive 16:26

And can I just add, Iman, the other point about the training programs is we've always had a culture of those training programs be with your peer groups in other businesses. So again, if you get good training maybe within a with within a whole co-ecosystem, you're probably working with other people within that same ecosystem. We want people to connect with each other in different businesses. It's an important part of building that sense of culture for independence.

Nick 16:55

I agree. And I was just gonna say, I mean, mine again, I I think it's fair to say it's not too too controversial to say that talent, the reputation of culture and talent in our region, in our industry, isn't that great as a kind of headline. I think it's fair to say, and I think I don't think many people would challenge that. I think if you look at what's going on in our industry at the moment, with the number of mergers, with the number of uh consolidations, great word, consolidations that are happening at the moment, there's obviously going to be a fallout of talent. It's happening, everyone knows it, it's in the headlines, it's you know, there's cost cutting, there's you know, these things are being done, and ultimately people will pay the price. Not everyone, but a good percentage of them. Well, and I think, you know, again, there's that that sense of belonging that you may have had in bigger agencies and a career for life. I think the uncertainty is hard on people because you know, am I going to make the next uh round of cuts or not? And I think where independence play a really interesting role is I think you can get that sense of belonging back. And you know, I can only comment on the alliance leadership, and there's this real kind of passion for finding the right talent. Talent isn't when you're a founder or a leader of an independent agency, it's not just making a hire, you're bringing someone into something that you deeply care about. And that person, you're uh is is joining something that's yours. Like that's that it's it's a very, very different feeling, it's not a transactional hire to fill a fill a seat, it's you're bringing someone into it since, and so I think talent will see that and that will rise through, and that's really important. And then the last thing I wanted to say is on specialism, essentially. Um again, having worked in big agencies that do everything, and that's what that's why big agencies are good, because they can do everything. But when you're a talent that's really wants to double down on PR or maybe B2B, or maybe you like sponsorship, or you want to work in the sports sector, or you like commerce, or you like experiential, when you want to double down and that's your interest, being in a big agency that does everything is actually quite counterintuitive. And I've had people come to me when we've we've worked through mergers and said, I didn't sign up for this. I want to work with people that play my sport, the people that do the same thing I do. And actually, it's been so it's quite, I think it's quite an interesting opportunity where I talk about bench strength, too many sports references, sorry, but bench strength in agencies. But when you've got 30, 40 people who are all passionate about the same subject, I think that shines through. And I think it again, it creates this sense of belonging that I don't think you can get in bigger agencies. I think it's a huge talent opportunity there for Indies.

Clive 19:28

I just want to add that the in in terms of uh the consolidations that Dick's talking about, and therefore, you know, a lot of people kind of being laid off, it's creating more of a an independent agency environment. The figures show that the number of agencies in the last 10 years in the UK has doubled in in terms of independence. And that's not because people all those people have been working somewhere else, probably likely in a larger company. And once they get, whether they're laid off or whether they leave, they go and they start their own thing. So what we're seeing now with the uh consolidations going on within the larger companies is only going to create more and more independence.

Iman 20:08

What I would also say is it creates more opportunities for clients to look at the independence because some of the talent that's sat in those bigger agencies is now going to look to the independent landscape, which will then only strengthen the talent bench that sits in the middle.

Clive 20:24

It's interesting. We got we got a call yesterday from uh a member agency saying that they had been approached with by a client who they couldn't take on because of a uh conflict. And that client said, Do you could you recommend we want to have an independent only pitch? And the brief is creative production and media. And this member phoned us and said, Can you put forward businesses, not just one agency, but businesses that could address those things? But one, the client talking to the independent, us specifically to say we want to have an independent only pitch.

Iman 21:05

I think Nick, you're seeing that with some of the conversations that you're having is that now that you're here and you're representing this middle segment, you've suddenly become almost a de facto voice for the middle, the middle, the missing middle, as you like to call it. And now clients are coming to you saying, Can you help me find one agency, two agencies, or a group of agencies? And I think we've almost coined it as these new ecosystems of collaboration for the region, which ultimately mean better client service, better craft, better excellence, better opportunities for all.

Nick 21:37

Yeah, I mean it's kind of organically happened, as you know, but like ultimately, in a weird about weird way, we keep using the word independence, probably the most used word on this podcast so far. But actually, kind of what we're trying to do is actually make independence not so independent, I guess, for the other guys, because you're in a you're effectively bringing all these indies together. And what's been missing in this region has been. In alignment, representation, collective momentum. And that's ultimately what the alliance built. And yeah, I've obviously I've sort of become this sort of spokesperson, but I guess you need that, right? If you don't have someone that puts their head above everyone else and represents, and as long as you're doing a good job representing them, then it suddenly becomes much easier for clients and talent and everyone to engage with the industry. So for me, it's happened naturally, but it's um it's a really interesting and good opportunity because we can start to tackle some of the big issues that do exist in our industry as a collective. And as I said, if I'm able to be the voice of those issues, then these things needed to come out. And uh yeah, so far I think we're doing a really good job of tackling, we're just raising some of the, you know, for some of the things that need to be written, payment terms, RFPs, how talent's managed. Um, and we're able to do that as a collective, and I'm able to do that as a voice.

Iman 22:54

Which I think needs very nicely onto the point of the purpose of this podcast, which is the entire reason we're having this podcast is to bring together different individuals, different perspectives to talk about some of the challenges and opportunities of this region and to really make sure we are surfacing those issues, that we are talking about them with honesty through different voices and different agencies as well.

Nick 23:18

Yeah, I so one of one of one of my big kind of passion points at the moment is the lack of standards in the industry. So there is no salary benchmarking, there is no what's the right way to manage pitches, there is no uh yardstick or benchmark when it comes to managing talent, there's no kind of commercial behavior that everyone follows. And I think traditionally the industry has been very, very, very good at pointing fingers at it's a procurement problem, it's a client problem. But actually, if you look at the industry as it stands, there's an awful lot of things that need to be addressed in the industry. And again, I've doing it again, going back to sports teams. But you know, if you think about a league, any league, if you like basketball, if you like football, if you whatever you think, but you've got different sized teams. You've got some that have got loads of money, you've got some that have got a little amount of money, the the big guys play the small guys, and so on and so on. But they do so on a level playing field, they have to follow the rules of the leagues. Yeah, there's referees, there's things that you have to do. And I do think that this industry now needs a little bit of um discipline and organization. And if we're able to put that, even through the alliance and even through 30 members or 50 members, I feel like we can create some discipline in the industry, which then gives us the credibility to talk to clients and talk to procurement and talk to the government and say, look, there's certain things that don't work here in terms of commercial terms, there's certain things that don't work here in terms of procurement, but we could do it with credibility then, because then we've got our own house in order. And that is a huge opportunity to drive excellence and to drive the industry forward globally because a global reputation, say it as it is again, is just not good enough. People look, and Clive may be comment on this, people look at the Middle East as a bit of a wild west when it comes to the industry of advertising. You know, the pitch process really, really affects our reputation. Payment terms really, really affects our reputation. I've spoken to over a hundred agencies looking to come into the market um pre-the-conflict, and these are the things that put them off. So if we're able to address these things, and we can't fix everything, we'll never be able to, but if we're able to create some discipline and some standards, that's the best way to look at it, then I think it will it will raise the reputation of the region globally, and it should be globally one of the best regions in the world. But everything that's going on, we're setting benchmarks in every type of industry, but the communication advertising image of us isn't right. And I think we can have some impact on that with what we're doing.

Clive 25:47

And I think the important part of that is that everybody kind of stays within those ways of working. I mean, we've used um we're part of a thing called the debating group where we debate, I have debates in the Houses of Parliament, and we run three: one on mental health, one on payment terms, and uh one on pitching. And the last one on pitching, it started out, and the the uh the motion was um the pitch process is no longer fit for purpose. And they take a vote of the audience at the beginning of the debate, and they take one at the end. At the beginning, they said and said, Well, you know, it probably is fit for purpose because that's what we live with. By the end, it was overwhelmingly gone the other way because the agencies presented the fact, and there's clients on the panel as well, that they're giving away things for nothing, and having 15 agencies on the pitch list is just is not appropriate. And what we encourage within in our alliance is that these are the rules by which we should all be playing. Of course, they're going to be people outside that who will kind of break the rules, but once you start to get that kind of collective momentum, then it works. And I've the point I want to pick up on earlier about this thing about collective. There are things about working together, and there are things about working independently. You know, we've got the Alliance of Media Independence, which represents over one and a half billion pounds of billing. We have to work very hard to say it is not a collective buying point, but you've got all these media agencies who are working together in order to make dealings with media owners, working with um tech businesses work more effectively, but it's not a kind of a buying point. So there's that bit about the commercial competitiveness, which I think stays, but there's that bit where you work as a collective to make things better, and that's something that we over time are really uh really clearing understanding. And I think when you come to talking about agencies working together, we are connecting people more and more, but we are not starting to act as an intermediary. When we're talking about it, we're doing it if you like authentically or organically, we're not doing it in terms of the way in which an intermediary would operate, which is charging, charging agencies and clients on both sides in order to make it a money-making venture and talk around and and more often than not end up with the same solution than they could have done on uh on day one. So we're doing it organically and we're not charging, you know, we're not charging for it because it's what we have to offer are the people who are part of our our alliance.

Nick 28:17

And one of the things, Clive, when you and I first sat down, and I remember the phone call I made to you, I was like, who's this guy from the Middle East? We'd like to, we think the alliance would work really well. And that was, you know, it was driven by founders coming to me saying we need something. But one of the things I loved always was that the alliance, and you know, we touched on this yesterday, but like there's quite a lot of like governing bodies and authorities. There's the ones in the PR industry and there's ones in the marketing industry. But actually, this there's this huge gap. And what one of the things I loved was that everyone is a member of the alliance, so it's not just it's obviously it's driven by the founders, but actually everyone gets access to all the trainings, all the materials. It's you know, so actually, if you look at the alliance, you know, we're probably a board, what do you think about 600 people maybe? And I think then suddenly it's that's quite a powerful movement. If you think about an agency that was 600 people in this region, it's it's pretty big, right? It's pretty competitive. But I think the, yeah, that's one of the things that I think differentiates us is that we are you won't get that in single governing bodies, but where where we have this opportunity to actually collaborate a lot more because everyone's kind of coming from different different places, but there's an opportunity to work together. I think that I think that sets us apart and makes us quite unique, those things.

Iman 29:30

And I'll just build on that. You've mentioned, you know, the different industry bodies that operate in our region. For us, it's about how do we also talk to them, how do we bring them in, how do we surface some of the issues that they internally know about, but maybe haven't vocalized as much. And then to really use the alliance and even to a degree, this podcast for the industry to come together to discuss and to just advocate positive change in the region, um, whether that's better payment systems, whether that's better places for talent, whether that's better pitch processes, whether that's more understanding of the opportunities for talent and for client. Fundamentally, everything that we're trying to do right now is to make sure there is more opportunity for all. And we do that by making sure collaboration is at the heart of everything that we do.

Nick 30:14

Exactly. We were at an event last week where all of the different governing bodies, alliances came together to start to have these conversations. And so you had the marketing society and you had, you know, um, you had MEPRO, you had different business societies. And what was quite interesting at being at that table is that independent agencies never been represented before. So when those conversations happened, like an entire huge segment, like we're we're a major part of the economic and creative force in MENA. We always kind of have been, but we haven't, no one's ever kind of held it together. So for the first time, we're around the table, we're a big part of the industry, and we're actually able to have a voice. And it is the that the things that need to be tackled in this region and the opportunity for the region has to be done as an industry. It can't be done independently. So it's a it's it's great, it's it's exciting to see, you know, these things haven't happened before, um, and they are now.

Iman 31:06

Well, Clive, Nick, I think ending this on the spirit of collaboration is probably a real good point, you know, leaving people with something to think about, you know, how can we better collaborate? How can we better support one another? You know, how can we use the alliance to make sure that the independent landscape in this part of the world is growing, is developing, is flourishing, and that talent in particular understand that there are new opportunities for them and that clients understand that there are some really fantastic partners for them as well. So thank you very much for your time.

Nick 31:37

Thank you. Great to chat.

Iman 31:40

The Edge of Influence was brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa, and North 75. The executive producer was myself, Iman Issa, and the producer was Ian Carlos. And this podcast was produced by North75 and PodWorks Dubai.