Client Relationships, Trust & How Work Really Gets Done in MENA

In this week's episode of The Edge of Influence, host Iman Issa, Co-Founder & Managing Partner of North Seventy Five, is joined by Roy Aftimos, CEO of C2 Communications, and David Fox, Senior Advisor and former CEO of Ogilvy in the region, to explore how work really gets done in MENA - through trust, deep client relationships and great craft. 

The conversation moves from navigating procurement and aligning on shared objectives, to shifting the conversation from "hours and deliverables" to genuine value, to what builds rich, lasting client partnerships. 

David and Roy also make a passionate case for agencies to own their distinct point of view, rediscover the art of selling big ideas, and above all, be proud enough to put their work out there.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Iman Issa
Editor: Ian Carless
Executive Producers: Iman Issa & Ian Carless
Produced by: North Seventy Five & Poddworx Dubai

Transcript

Welcome And The Big Agenda

Iman 0:17

Welcome to the Edge of Influence, a podcast brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. I'm your host, Iman Issa. Over the course of today's episode, we're going to be delving into the procurement challenges and opportunities, understanding how we develop deep client relationships from behaviors and attitudes to models and structures to capabilities, and of course, that all important question, budgets. I'm joined by Roy Afamos, CEO of C2 Communications, who's been in the region running this agency for over 25 years, and David Fox, who is an industry veteran with 30 years of experience spanning multiple markets, including being the former CEO of Oval V in the region. Welcome to the channel.

David 1:03

Thank you.

Roy 1:03

Thank you.

Relationships Built On Trust

Iman 1:04

So, in terms of our region, obviously it's a market that is heavily dependent on deep sector knowledge, deep client relationships. When you think about the changing landscape, what do you see as some of the best client relationships that you've had in this region and what has made them feel different to you, Roy?

Roy 1:22

Look, it's it's important to, if we, if we over, if we see and analyze what has been happening, I think really the transformational relationships have been the best in uh in terms of engagement, in terms of how we did manage to grow with the certain partners. And uh there are a few cases that were actually quite inspiring considering what the region went through in the last five years, ten years, and since probably to 2008. But it starts sometimes really with uh with a feeling, which is the ability to know that uh your opinion matters, that that your ideas are welcomed, value tested, and and that you collectively can see an impact actually with the with the client. But what makes them really work for us is uh by starting by eliminating really the the raw concept of hours and deliverables and focus on really what matters through thinking big, acting big, and never lose sight of what we do set with certain partners to work with. And we've noticed that all of these just mushroom with time, actually.

Iman 2:32

It's interesting that you mention hours and deliverables. Obviously, having been in a large agency in my past life, we used to spend a lot of time looking at hours deliverables, ensuring that the commercials and the margin matched the client relationship. David, what would be your kind of point of view on balancing that commercial acumen with the need to develop strong client relationships?

David 2:57

It's a good point, particularly when you talk about the network side, you know. I think many years ago I had a guy working for me on his uh wall at his desk. He had a quote that said, Before you show me how much you know, show me how much you care. And his philosophy, and I agree with it, that clients aren't logos on a wall, they're human beings that you need to build a relationship with. And that relationship sits as a basis around trust, around honesty, around forgiveness, belief, likability, difficult conversations. If those things do not happen with those clients, I don't think you are able to build a different type of model. And you're right, I think uh if if you are balancing hours and things like that, I think you need to be um columnless as of the fact that you've got to manage a business. But you know, I think proactivity with clients goes a long way to building strong relationships because you show you care. And at the end of the day, that client has to succeed. Your job as an agency partner is to help that person succeed, a human succeed. So, for example, you know, for many of my clients, and some clients don't like doing it, we ask for their KPIs. So give us your KPIs so we understand what you have to do, not your personal KPIs, but your business KPIs. And because our job is to help you deliver those KPIs. If you're in the client's corner and you're working closely with them to deliver those KPIs, you build a whole bunch of trust. And that client knows that you're in their corner and you're working for the betterment of the brand, not just to make the agency money or awards or whatever it might be.

Iman 4:30

Yeah, I think a lot of what we're talking about here is that deep investment that you have to put into a client relationship, which then ultimately does return commercial value. I remember once having a conversation with a client of mine who were talking about or trying to address overservicing. And actually at the end of the meeting, he said to me, you know, by starting the conversation with we're overservicing you, you automatically put yourself on the back foot. He said, But if you started the conversation by saying this is the level of investment we've put into this relationship, he said it's a much more fruitful conversation. And from there, he said, we'd be willing to put more uh impact back into the agency as well.

David 5:08

Correct, because the client's looking for what's the value exchange. If you're only doing you pay me to do this, and I'm gonna do this, that's not a relationship that's gonna last long. You've got a value over over uh index on the value. It doesn't mean you do reason reads of extra work. It could be very simple, small ideas, but it demonstrates you're thinking on the business. And if you're a client sitting in your office and the client, AVC comes to you and says here's a productive idea, you go, Well, these guys are in their offices thinking about my business. They care.

Iman 5:34

Do you think that um commercials

Procurement Alignment And Shared KPIs

Iman 5:38

sometimes get in the way of good client relationships, Rory?

Roy 5:41

Absolutely. They always do because we we you know, we we sit, we speak, we talk, strategy, big big words, big whatever it is, but ultimately there is somebody sitting somewhere who's signing something that sits in an Excel sheet. So the the point for us is how how do we balance it? You know, how can you balance between value, value, value as as much as we want to work towards value, but then how do you get moving? Because eventually, uh yes, we're not a charity and we're working to make money and to grow and and to do all of these things. But what we found out in the last few years to try and overcome this is to create really a space whereby we can talk about value with procurement, not only with the business, and try to get as many people around the table. And one way to prove that we're we're fully vested in this is actually by being accountable through uh you know, through various forms, uh through various, not only by measuring results, also, because everybody talks about measuring results, but how can we be there to ensure that we are managing the whole process throughout? So whether we're hitting targets, hitting KPIs, you know, what are we doing about it? How are we keeping procurement, compliance involved? And the more they we get them involved, because we can sit and criticize them, I always do, but the more we get them involved and we show value versus what is being done, the better life could become and will become. And they could become your best allies eventually with time.

Iman 7:20

Yeah, I would agree on this. And I think it's interesting that you're talking about procurement with in the context of client relationships, because it has come up quite a lot in, especially in the last couple of years, just how many relationships you need to have across the business. And David, obviously, you've done client side and you've done agency side. When you were in the client seat, did you have to build a relationship with the procurement team to get really strong agency work delivered?

David 7:46

You have to, you have to sit with and spend time with the procurement team. I mean, I could I could argue, and I'm not saying anything out of school here, that there's a there's a fundamental issue that I, as a person who was looking for an agency partner, I was looking for a strong agency that's going to build a brand and deliver good work. A lot of procurement departments want something fast and cheap. Those two objectives are not aligned. So you have to spend a lot of time with your procurement team saying our our overall objective is achieved this. Now, if their KPIs are one thing and marketing is a different, there's a problem. There's a disconnection inside the organization, and the agencies get caught right in the middle, right in the middle. So I think you it's the job of the CMO and the agency to a certain point to align with procurement to what is the objective to the benefit of the business, and the marketing and agency team's job is to deliver the business objectives, not just sit on the side and create nice fluffy content. If it's not driving growth for the organization or building a brand or driving sales, it's not doing its job. So there's an alignment piece there, right? Procurement want to pick an agency that sells or builds a brand, so does the CMO and so does an agency because that's success. That's a great effie paper if you want to do one. So I think aligning objectives is spending time. And my favorite quote from Abraham Lincoln is if I had to spend six hours, if I had six hours to cut down a tree, I'd spend four hours sharpening the axe. In other words, all that preparation time to deliver a better result, because I see it a lot. Everything from pictures to work in the clients, everyone rushes into activity. Let's get it done, let's get it done because the deadline's short. Versus hang on, stop, timeout, sit in a room, spend four hours around the table, work out the plan, work out the objectives, what you're trying to achieve. And it saves you time at the back end where it all starts falling apart because you haven't done that process up front. So spending four hours sharpening the axe, that means aligning with procurement on what your objectives are. And then as you go further down the track, it works out. So I I did that inside our organization. I think I did I did it recently well. And we aligned what we had to do. We gave the agencies enough time. I I felt I gave them extensions and everything because I understand what it's like being on the other side of the fence, rushing through weekends to get the work done. And at the end of the day, I want high-quality work. I don't want rushed stuff, right? So it's against my personal objective, just give give agencies a week to pitch. Why would I do that? It works against me ultimately. So, yes, a long answer to your question, which is procurement need to be brought on board, I think, and aligned. And that's a relationship that has to be nurtured. Now, by the way, procurement aren't the bad guys. Percuent have a job to do, they get a very clear KPIs from their CEO to deliver that, to deliver. They work across many categories, not just the marketing team, as you can imagine. They do everything in the organization. They're usually short-staffed and they did their very best. So I think a relationship as much as you're allowed to, it's not a bad thing.

Fixing The Pitch Process

Iman 10:40

So when you look at alliances and you look at some of the entities that exist within our region that are designed to elevate all of the agencies, whose job is it to pull together agencies, procurements, and clients so that ultimately clients get better work, Roy?

Roy 10:59

It is our job. Nobody's gonna do our job. Let's start from there. And um, we fail at executing on a lot of times, being independent, being on the go, being fast, and what have you. So we talk a lot, but we do less. But the more we agree on some basic fundamentals in terms of ensuring that how do we approach what is it that we're willing to do and not do when there is a pitch, when there is whatever there is that we're working towards, the more we have a collective voice, the more we can we can be out there to ensure we protect our future. And what I'm referring to, we we spoke about procurement, we for sure will speak about the pitch process. And you know, in any session, any any coffee, anything you said, everybody speaks about the pitch process. And but we've been speaking, what we need to get to is to agree amongst each other, you know, when are we willing to play and what are the conditions also that we are willing to play with. So it's easy to say others should do my job, but then we need to put our foot down and say these are our conditions to ensure that everybody is being given a fair chance. But, you know, it's not just a capital market where you get everybody in and you waste everybody's time. And in most of the cases, I'm not gonna put a number, but I would say more than 50% during a pitch, already the client knows with whom they're gonna work with. Now, once you sign a contract and you start working with the business, you will realize, and I'm sure we all realize, that the requirements become more and the budgets will become less. So again, you've got another thing that you need to manage between you and the client and the partner. And it's always the case with everyone, right? So, again, the more we stick to our principles, to our values, to our point of views, to our convictions, the more we elevate the conversation, the more we keep ourselves far from being just a commodity on the market that is measured through, again, XLCs, through somebody who's sitting somewhere.

Iman 13:04

Yeah, I think a lot of client relationships really go down to the depth of trust that they have in the team, the individuals that they work with on a day-to-day basis. And obviously, what we've talked about is how you get in the room from the point of pitch, you build your relationships with procurement, with the clients, you build really strong foundations so that when you go into doing the work, you can focus on having a really rich relationship. So I just want to move the conversation into that rich and depth relationship. What is it that creates those strong bonds with a client over two, three, five years plus?

Roy 13:41

I think what's very important is actually building the relationship

Transparency And Accountability In Practice

Roy 13:45

before the pitch. That's a completely different mindset as independent we do, because we don't sit and just, you know, receive tenders in our inbox. So the ability to put ourselves out there institutionally in terms of what we do, the value we bring, the use cases that we put forward in terms of changing somebody's business is very important. Something that we try and adopt a lot as much as we can and where possible, we get an alignment on the brief before we even receive the brief. And this usually happens over time, over conversations, over understanding, the pain points to ensure that the brief is actually focusing on what is needed and not just purely creative, because we live in an era that we collectively agree that creativity, media tech, whatever we do, are just the small components of the overall ecosystem that is moving actually there. So things that that we particular, in particular, we we keep in in mind when uh when we are dealing with any partner is actually transparency. I know it sounds really cliche, but there are so many aspects that you can put forward when you are working with a partner to show transparency because we live in an era where you know nothing is guaranteed. You put a plan, you put a yearly plan, you don't know what's gonna happen in three months, four months, just from pure communication perspective, channels perspective, reactions perspective, trends, whatever it is. So the ability to be transparent, be accountable, and having an open mind and show that we will step and we're not ashamed of saying that, you know, we got it right, now it's time to move. Admitting, taking on responsibility whether things are working, not working, or they could be improved, just being there and starting by us not working with a partner as an agency, but as a partner actually.

Iman 15:45

Yeah, I think what you're talking about here is really that commitment to transparency in unlocking that trust and that relationship with a client. But I guess my question is aside from the transparency, what other tools can agency leaders or teams deploy to really continue to drive trust in relationships, David?

David 16:06

So I think there's a again, you call me a veteran, so I'll go back to the old sayings. Uh, there was a saying that uh some of the best brands in the world trained their customers. So, in other words, no one knew what a grande was until Starbucks trained us to tell us what a grande was. And I think what's missing is ABCs need to train clients on how they like to do business. Now, you take a leadership position, not saying that's easy. So, for example, whenever I do a pitch, I will always present at the end what I think are the four fundamental basics of what make a good relationship between agency and client. And I'm what I'm trying to do is set up that before we start any brutes or any work, we work on these four things and align as an agency and the client that we focus on what these four things are. The first one is behavior, right? If you good briefing process, good approvals, good governance. If you're receiving briefs on WhatsApp, we don't, we don't accept, sorry, we don't do it, but you have to align that up front, right? Model and structure. Do you have the right people in the right roles in the right place at the right time? Do you have people sitting in the clients' offices to ensure that anything that gets to the agency is ready to go and circumvented any bad briefs? The third one is capabilities. Do we have the right business understanding, the right tools in the agency? Do we have the right proprietary tools? Do we have the right uh product understanding? And the last one, which is the tricky one, which is remuneration. I mean, it shouldn't be a crime for the agency to make money because the money attracts better talent, it gives them bonuses, it retains them a highly transient market. So I present those four things as the basis. There's plenty of other things. Here's the basis. If, and I've always noticed if one of those things are corrupt in the relationship, the relationship goes off track. So what I would try to do is take a leadership position with the client and say these are the four things. If you want to buy into our services and our values and our work as a client, as an ACC, sorry, this is how we work.

Iman 18:04

I love that. So behavior is model structure, capabilities, and remuneration. It's some really good advice for agency leaders.

David 18:12

I think so. But but also go back to Roy's point about transparency, present it in the pitch. So this is what we believe in, right? And I think we we shy away from as an agency, you know. I uh this sounds harsh, right? And it doesn't always happen in this region. When I was in Australia with our clients, I would say that we were partners to a lot of our clients. KFC, 29 years, American Express, 50 years, right? Double AMI insurance, 27 years. No pitching, right? We got it wrong sometimes. We worked on it, we fixed it. So you're a partner in the UK where I work, you're probably more of a supplier. It's going to sound harsh, but a lot of times here you're just a vendor, right? And you're part of a tender process where there's 30 agencies invited. Uh, you as an agency leader have to decide whether you want to partake in that. My point uh on saying that is that if you take a leadership position, not arrogant, not rude, but say, this is how we do things. Now, who does that? DWC do it, McKinsey do it, right? The consultancy firms know they go to a client and they train them on how they work. Why can't agencies work? And it's not complicated. Take those four things as a starting point and lead the client. Say, this is how we work to deliver the best results for you. And then you then you have to stop every month and evaluate how you're on track, off track, how's it going? Those check-ins are important as well. Then you can say, well, last week we had three briefs on WhatsApp, and they were so urgent we accepted them. But guys, that's not what we agree. How do we get back on track? Remember, we focus as agencies a lot on work. You've all got to spend as much time on the relationship.

Iman 19:43

I would absolutely agree with all of those points. And I think I've been through various, various experiences, various clients that mirror that in many different ways. I think it's interesting that you mention consultancies versus independents, well, versus agencies. So I think obviously in our market we have many different types of agencies that have many different types of ecosystems in which they exist. Do you think there's a difference in terms of how

Independents Versus Networks Reality Check

Iman 20:10

agencies of a network would approach that conversation compared to an independent, or do you think it's the same?

David 20:15

I think uh networks walk in and say, I can do anything, what do you want? Right? Because we're big and we're bold and we're brassy. Uh I would argue that independence uh to main focus, less layering, more uh faster, more agile. Okay. So independents need to position themselves as we're about the work, we're about the insights, and we're about building brands, or we're about PR and issues management, whatever it might be, right? And go back to the craft of why you hire us, not the layering that you want to pay for.

Iman 20:49

Yeah, I think what you're touching on here is some of the myths around independence. And I I know Roy, you obviously had a point of view around what are some of the almost like those myths that we need to dispel around who does great work, where does great craft come from? And obviously all agencies can claim great craft, but I think sometimes the smaller agencies might be a little bit underrepresented. Would you say that's a fair assumption?

Roy 21:10

They are, but again, I go back to do we believe we are or not, or and do we create this halo around us? And you know, do we believe in in what we are doing and how do we approach uh how do we approach this? Uh I think if we look at the way we operate versus uh big institutions, international institutions, there's there's a huge difference in the way we we start. What we do is we curate solutions according to problems. So probably you put in more time, but you listen to it's it's like you're it's like you're a tailor one way or another, and you need to come up with solutions that would fit exactly what is happening. When you go to multinationals, what we've seen, and and I can't claim that uh I am part of the system, nor I was, but what we've seen across Time is that there is sort of a set solution that you try to implement in as much as you can on various issues and problems that could be with the clients for businesses and what have you. So if we approach things differently, then definitely we will deliver more personalized experiences, solutions, whatever it is. And what we do is we bridge gaps. So the more we look into the situations in front of us, the closer we can get to the objectives, the faster we can bridge gaps and things like that. But to go back to the myth and what people believe and what the industry believes. Yes, that was the case a few years ago. But I do not believe it's the case these days anymore, except of course with the multi-multi-million uh businesses. But then what is happening and what's helping us a lot is that even now when you try with a multinational because of big budgets, big names, whatever it is, or the psychological comfort, right, that that everybody uses around the word in this, you're seeing that the results are not way better, right? Because today you don't work with agencies to just develop a film or run a campaign or do whatever it is. You don't produce products. You look for solutions. And this is where independents can work together, jump on a call, be more open. You know, none of us does everything. So we end up working together and we offer a more consolidated approach and solution towards problems that is helping us actually get more and more credibility and what have you. And if I look at the roster of a lot of independent agencies, including ours, I mean, more than 50% are multinational businesses that do not care. What they care about is who can understand me more, who's available when I'm in need, who you know, who can move things around, who can I trust, who's more transparent with me, who's accountable, right, to what we do. And people are looking for solutions. You could be the best friend of somebody, but they will work with somebody else if you are not delivering these days. And that's actually the beauty that the science brought to uh to what we do for a living. Everything is measurable and numbers talk eventually.

Iman 24:19

Well, I think ultimately what we've kind of agreed on here is that when you put craft and excellence and craft at the heart of a relationship and commit yourself to doing really great work with transparency, with boundaries, then ultimately that will help deliver and unlock a better client relationship. Would that be fair to say, Dave?

David 24:40

I think so. But yeah, absolutely. But let's go again or use my veteran tag. Let's let's go back in history, right? So if I if I throw these, I'm gonna use advertising agencies because that's where I'm from. If I throw

Selling Craft And Big Ideas

David 24:50

Y and R, BBH, Stroker 5, DDB, Ogilvie, McCann, and TBW way into the mix, the first thing you think about is network, but they all started as independents, all of them, right? They were independent businesses with founders, right? Now, what the difference was is that was a simpler world, I agree. However, all those founders never came from marketing or advertising. David Ogilvy sold Argus in Scotland in the 30s. He was a sales guy, right? And so I suppose my call out or my uh my uh provocation to the founders of the independent agencies is I think there's a rise in independence, which is great. I'm a full supporter of it. I think, and by the way, if those net those agencies which were independent, that obviously Martin Sorrel started WPP in the 80s, it grew this network business, and those agencies grew on the back of international, multinational clients, IBM, Ford, VAC, Nestlé, the list goes on and on. When I was at Ogilvie, I ran a global client. We had 18 global clients. Now there's probably about four, right? That that world's moved on. WPP had 45 different models of running clients, team Ford, team whatever, right? And I was I was running one of those. The world's moved on. Okay. That sits to the advantage of the independence. However, here's my point that the people that ran those agencies were not advertising marketing. David Ogilby was a sales guy who did market research and understood market research. Uh, you had journalists, writers, strategists, you didn't have marketing guys. And here's the kicker: they all had a point of view on the work, and they all had a point of view on the industry, and they were all distinctive in their point of view. David Ogilby, we sell or else, was our mantra in the early 2000s. And clients said, So we will sell your product or we're not doing our job. Okay. And then in Ogilvie in Australia, when I was there '99 in 2005, the agency wasn't allowed to enter awards. It was illegal, no awards. Why? Because it takes the focus off what we're paid to do, which is sell the client's product. So Ogilvy was all about sales. Sell, sell, sell, sell, right? So a couple of provocations. One, and I I speak from the client side, agencies have lost the art of selling. They present, they don't sell, my view. There's a big fundamental difference. And and I mentioned before the old saying that no one ever got fired for hiring IBM. In other words, a lot of clients will take the safe option, which is normally a network agency. Okay. For me, the best definition of selling is taking the fear out of saying yes. And independent's job is to take the fear out of saying yes because you're a more risky choice, whether you like it or not, right? Because the CMO, when they're looking at your independent agency as a network, in the back of their mind, will my boss buy this? Will they make me look good? Am I going to fail on the back of them? Your job is to sell the idea that you take the fear out of saying yes. And you do that in the ability to sell, the ability to show that you understand insights, not just data or behaviors, but insights, that the work has an idea in it. And I'll maybe be very controversial. The greatest thing I hate in this market are manifestos. They are trash AI slot, uh, all the words you want to use, they're just boring and they take all the distinctive ideas out of communication and advertising. But I do understand sometimes clients ask them to sell them, but sell an idea, sell a big, beautiful idea, platform idea, your IBM, you know, ideas for a smarter planet. It was a platform idea, which was brilliant. Look at Emirates. I would argue Emirates is the only flat UAE flagship brand that faces the world, fly better. They deliver everything against that proposition. Okay. I then challenged independence to focus on the craft to go in and sell big, beautiful ideas that clients go. This I'm excited. I have no fear. I'm going to take this my boss and we're off to the races, as opposed to that's a little bit scary. I'm going to go to the big guys because that's safer.

Iman 28:51

I think ending uh ending the episode on some of these top tips would be a good place to hit pause. And I think whether you're an independent agency or an agency in a big network, I think getting back to the craft and focusing on what we are here to do and feeling genuine excitement when we sit across the table from a client and saying, We're going to deliver this together, everyone will win at that point in time.

David 29:20

There's an old saying, my boss said to me, that a great idea solves all relationship problems, right? Because if you've got a problem with that relationship and you come up with a banging idea, sometimes maybe you've got to sell it. Everyone just gets excited and off they go, right? That is the antidote to the lack of distinctive work that I see in this region being slightly provocative.

Roy 29:42

If I can add just one thing, if you if you don't mind, uh Iman, I think I just have a humble uh recommendation. I think we need to stop trying to look like network uh agencies and start owning our distinct point of view. I don't see network agencies talking about independent. We make something bigger than from what it is. And uh thank you, David, for referring to Emirates. It's a homegrown brand. Emirates is a homegrown brand that is a global brand now. If we believe, if if we really know what we are doing, if we really look at the impact that we are putting out, then everybody should be proud of what we do, irrelevant of what everybody else is uh uh doing. You know, even in the sea, the the size of the fish doesn't really make a difference. They can still swim however they uh they want to. So as long as we are proud of what we do and and self-fulfilled and and we're moving forward with our partners, this is really what matters.

David 30:39

And then, yeah, time with then the key point for me is how do you find, as an independent AC, how do you find your leverage? Okay, in any negotiation, in anything, you've got to find leverage. So, what's the network's leverage? Size, scale, experience, big clients. We've done it before, baby. We're safe. Let's go. Independence is agile craft, big ideas, focus on the work, execute the craft beautifully. You reposition or deposition those network agencies and think about what your leverage is. And once you gain that leverage, and

Share The Work And Closing Thoughts

David 31:15

that leverage usually at the moment, you know, networks will say, We've got the best people, we've got the best work, we've got the best clients. Everyone says the same thing. No one's distinctive, no one stands out in the market, which is ironic. The cobbler son has the worst shoes. The advertising agencies can't position or sell themselves, or I'm being very, very facetious. So, my last call out to all you independent people is please share your work on LinkedIn. Show I don't see work anymore. Where's the pride in the work? I see lots of thought leadership, and I'm being very prodoctory. A lot of AI dread, by the way, edit your AI thing because everyone can tell us AI. But share the work. Where's the work?

Iman 31:51

I think sharing the work is something that a lot of people are forgetting to do right now. There's a big focus on thought leadership, but actually, the thing that makes this industry tick, whether you are comms, advertising, oh, that wonderful world, we're integrated. Everybody is curious about the work. You know, did it excite you? Did you get out of bed for it? Were your team motivated by it? Did you look back and go, that's a career highlight? That's ultimately what we're saying is clients love the work and agencies love the work. So do great work together.

David 32:19

So if I'm an independent, put it, shout it, be loud about it, and you own that space then. You start independent sticky space, which is you independents own the craft of the work.

Roy 32:29

Exactly, which is a goes back to if we are not proud of what we do, we're never gonna put the work out there. And that's again, it's it's how we develop the human in independence, but because it's completely different to breed to the multinational uh element.

Iman 32:45

So I think also, David, to your point, when you were looking at a procurement list of 10 agencies, you'll always go back to the same 10 agencies unless you start to see work that's fresh from other agencies. So that advice of putting out the work is how you also get noticed.

David 33:01

Correct. So I invited some of those agencies on the basis of the work that I knew they did because I knew it. I just knew it from the past. But today I can't remember the last time I saw an agency celebrating work on just say LinkedIn or even on their own channels or being served up to. I can't see it. And guys, this is what we do. It's all about the work. Where is it? Be proud of it.

Iman 33:21

I used to get told in my previous job that often we weren't allowed to put content online because of confidentiality, which was ironic because the whole point of the work was to make the client famous in the first place.

David 33:32

There might be some of those issues, but at the end of the day, the work's online anyway. It's not like all you're doing is saying we did it with this great partner. So I implore people to share the work and own the craft and position yourself in a distinctive manner and have a point of view about the industry. Don't talk about thought leadership. Show the thought leadership through the work that wins.

Iman 33:52

Well, on that note, thank you both very much for your time. I think we've covered a lot over the conversation from changes that we need at a procurement level to how we build deeper and stronger client relationships. And I think some really sound advice for agency leaders in terms of what they need to do to be bigger, bolder, balancing that commercial acumen and really going in and helping clients win together. So thank you so much for your time.

David 34:20

Thank you, guys.

Iman 34:22

The Edge of Influence was brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. The executive producer was myself, Iman Issa, and the producer was Ian Carlos. And this podcast was produced by North75 and PodWorks Dubai.