Women, Power & Ownership

In this episode of The Edge of Influence, host Iman Issa, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of North Seventy Five is joined by Elisabeth Anne, Regional Managing Director of Imagination and Sally Henderson, Founder, High-stakes leadership mentor & Author of "The How of High Performance", for an honest conversation about women and leadership. 

Together they explore how the regional conversation has shifted from representation to genuine influence, who controls budgets, shapes strategy, and wins the major mandates. They also discuss the art of saying no without guilt, knowing your role, setting consistent boundaries and separating being liked from being respected. 

They also dig into the double standards women still navigate, why trust, not popularity, is the foundation of leadership, and the underrated role of recovery and energy in high performance. It's a warm, candid episode with an emphatic call to action for women to be authentic and find moments to laugh, but also be brave, set boundaries fearlessly and put yourself first.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Iman Issa
Editor: Ian Carless
Executive Producers: Iman Issa & Ian Carless
Produced by: North Seventy Five & Poddworx Dubai

Transcript

Welcome And Why Leadership Matters

Iman 0:17

Hello and welcome to The Edge of Influence, a podcast brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. I'm your host, Iman Easter. Today I'm joined by Elizabeth Anne, Regional Managing Director of Imagination, and Sally Henderson, founder, high-stakes leadership mentor and author of The How of High Performance. And today we're talking about all things to do with women and leadership. Welcome to the show.

Elizabeth 0:44

Great to be here. Thank you.

Sally 0:46

Yes, thanks for having us.

Progress And The Influence Gap

Iman 0:47

So when we look at the region, there's so much to be said around women's empowerment, how women take control of their careers, and really the opportunities that are ahead of us in the next sort of five, 10 years. Elizabeth, you've been here for a very long time. What are some of the observations that you've seen for women in leadership over the last decade?

Elizabeth 1:06

Oh, yeah, I've been here over 20 years, as we've uh just established. But look, I think uh in terms of the landscape in the Gulf, it's quite an interesting uh contradiction. On one hand, we've seen a lot more progress in female leadership over the last decade than you know many people outside the region realize. Across the UAE and Saudi Arabia in particular, women are increasingly visible in very senior client roles and government entities and tourism, culture, communications, and uh leadership positions in general. And on the other hand, when you look specifically at sort of agency ownership or founder-led businesses, I suppose, board representation in particular, and also ultimate decision-making power, the numbers are still relatively low. The industry remains, I think, predominantly male-led at the ownership and the executive level. But there are a few things that have changed and the conversation has evolved significantly. If you look back sort of 10 years ago, much of the focus was on representation and getting women into leadership position, more positions. And today the conversation is increasingly about influence. I think that is uh the key, the key change. So who controls budgets, uh, who shapes strategy, who wins sort of major clients and mandates and accounts, and who has access to sort of the networks and the opportunities that are created. And um the challenge, you know, for women in particular is no longer simply being present. It's about having genuine influence over the outcomes, I would, I would sort of say.

Iman 2:46

I love this topic influence, because I think when we start to think about how women shape our sector and shake our industry, there are so many different ways that they can do so. And I think often in my past environment, it typically was focused on maybe the more internal dynamics of how you run an agency around people, talent, and culture. But actually, when you start to run, lead and manage

Identity Before Influence

Iman 3:10

agencies, it's much more around the business dynamics as boardroom tables. And I think potentially, Sally, this is where some of your role and experience can come into play in terms of how women tend to elevate themselves and how they bring that credibility and influence into the business environment.

Sally 3:28

Yes, I think it's this might sound a bit of an all-catching answer, but I think it's so important you know yourself because you can't have influence if you've not already influenced your own identity. And so I think being very clear on your purpose, the role that you're there to do. And I think women often are guilty of wanting to help too many people too often. So often we can become unsung heroines in the background. And when you're looking to have influence, knowing yourself is about yes, the values, your leadership identity, but why are you there in that organization? What is it you're actually going to be measured on? And where do you wish to have influence upon? What are your superpowers? Because I think we are, you know, often for good reasons, the ones who want to help others, to be supportive, to see what needs doing, for goodness sakes. You know, often what women see need doing versus what men need to see doing is like, you know, Venus and Mars. But we often feel this instinctive pull to take responsibility for that. And I think the higher up you go, working the muscle of saying no and feeling good about it and saying no again, and then still saying no, is something that will set you up well to have influence in the areas you wish to, not where you just can.

Iman 4:50

I feel like women struggle so much to say no. And everyone I've ever worked with that's in a position of leadership typically will do exactly what you said, right? We want to help everybody, we want to fix every problem that lands on our desk, whilst also making sure we're keeping clients, teams, and the agency happy. So, how do you put boundaries in place whilst out feeling guilty? Because I know that I would always feel guilty if I said no.

Sally 5:16

Well, there's a strong belief that you've just demonstrated that I would challenge in my role. Yeah? Because if that's your belief, then guess what's going to happen? You will always, not just occasionally, my love, always feel guilty, which is giving you something. Because we only do stuff that makes us feel good, even if we don't, even if we don't feel good at the time, it's giving us either a sense of security, a sense of belonging, a sense of value. And

The Skill Of Saying No

Sally 5:40

I used to make a big mistake when I ran my first business, which was a recruitment company based in London, looking after all design brand innovation agencies. And actually, imagination I've known for many years in that capacity previously. And I I made the mistake of my identity being so interwoven into value and efficiency. Like if the business was doing well, I felt if the business wasn't doing well, I felt bad. But I I had someone say something very, very powerful to me, just I was coming to the end of wanting to end that career chapter and start this one. I said, Oh, I love being busy. Because in my brain, I had made this really big belief that busy equals success. And if I was stressed, that meant that I was valuable and needed and I had meaning. And this lady said, I can't remember her name, but she said this phrase that I've never forgotten. She said, Ah, Sally, here's the interesting thing would you rather be busy or would you rather be affected? So true. And that never left me. And that one very simple statement allowed me to completely reframe and reset my relationship with being busy and wanting to be needed. Which I think we feel guilty to say no, because we often have a core belief and desire to want to be needed, to want to be liked. And I think if we let that go, we will have a lot more permission, power, and freedom to influence where we should.

Elizabeth 7:11

Elizabeth, you're agreeing here quite a lot. Yes, yeah, I'm nodding heavily, but obviously the audience can't see that. No, it's less about saying no in many ways. It's about being very clear. You know, I was always sort of worried that saying no would disappoint people or damage relationships when I started my career. And what I've realized is that in leadership, you are expected to make choices, right? You can't prioritize everything, support every request, or attend every meeting. And in many ways, the key is how you say no. You know, I try to be clear and respectful and explain the rationale. And sometimes it's not really a no, it's a not now. And sometimes it's not a no because there's a higher priority, which you know, some people in the team might not see or might not understand because they're not privy to sort of the bigger picture. But um sometimes it's a different solution altogether. And, you know, I've also found that generally people respect boundaries better when they are applied consistently. Problems really only arise when boundaries change, depending on who's asking. And, you know, this comes back sort of full circle to what we said at the beginning, particularly as women, there can sometimes be pressure to be accommodating, available, and agreeable all the time because we have got 15 different jobs at any given time, especially when you lead a company, lead an agency, or a mother, or a wife, or a friend, you know, the list goes on and on and on. But when you are in leadership, it requires judgment. And judgment means making decisions that not everybody will like. And so I've had to learn that saying no to one thing is often saying yes to something more important in that instance.

Iman 8:49

Just on this topic of no, I think when I look at people who are in positions of leadership, whilst we've all learned to say no eventually, I do think there is a learning curve as you start your career. And what I often observe is that people come into their career with that people-pleasing

Busy Versus Effective

Iman 9:05

aptitude, that desire to do really well, that desire to take on more. So by the time you get to the boardroom, you've already developed a decade or even two decades worth of never saying no. So as you start to see people coming through the agency landscape, how do you make sure that along that journey they learn to put those boundaries in place and that they learn to say no with credibility? How would you say that you work that out before you even get to the top, Sally?

Sally 9:35

So I think it starts back to the basics, which most people, especially in agency life, never get throughout their whole career, which is clarity on your role. Yeah, would you believe when I've sat and I am very privileged and delighted to work with senior people, very high performers, very successful, from the outside in, very shiny. But I have, I think I've only had one person in 10 years answer this question well cold when I've said to them, and these are C-suite leaders, agency founders, people very experienced, can you do me a favor? Yes, Sally, what is it? Can you just tell me what your job is? And they look really shocked. What do you mean? You know, because I am ex-name of ex-agency or business, and it's surely it's obvious. I said, No, I know that, just indulge me. And I keep them on the on the spot. And I said, tell me what your job is. And most people can't give a good answer to that question because we never ask it in the day-to-day. And if you learn this discipline, this muscle memory when you're junior, then it's going to give you a competitive, competitive advantage that most people never get in their whole career. Because if you're clear on what your job is, and therefore what it isn't, now you've got to have flex, of course you do. And that's part of the joy of agency life, isn't it? It's that you know, things change all the time. But what shouldn't change is your purpose and why you're there. Because that's how you're going to be measured. You know, that's where your results need to come in. And that's what's going to set you up doing well in that job to get the next one. And if you're a senior leader managing other people, then you have to have that clarity to know how to do your job well, to allow time to build other people's skills. But to learn the no, if you're not clear on what your job is, how can you feel good about saying no? Because you're always going to feel guilty or worried or anxious in case you're missing something that you should be doing.

Elizabeth 11:26

Yeah, I 100% echo that. You know, when you're not clear about your role in an organization, uh, then the risk is that you become the person who always says yes and takes on more work and solves everybody's, you know, everybody else's problems in in an attempt to sort of shine. And eventually that dilutes your impact. Um, and that's what, you know, I often discuss with the team because every yes comes with a cost in many ways. If you have time, energy, and attention, those are finite resources. If you are saying yes to everything, you're probably not focusing enough on the things that create the greatest values in your or the greatest value in your role. And I think especially as women, we need to learn most often the hard way to separate to separate being liked from being respected. You know, saying no respectfully does not damage any relationships. In fact, sort of clear boundaries often build credibility because people then really understand where you stand and they trust your judgment. And influence isn't lost when you say no. Influence is shaped by the way you say it. And if you can explain the rationale, align people around priorities and offer an alternative path forward, then or where is appropriate, then you're demonstrating leadership. And you know, the goal in that sense isn't to become less collaborative, the goal is to become more intentional.

Iman 12:51

Do you think for women that as they

Role Clarity Creates Boundaries

Iman 12:55

progress their career, this concept of being liked or not liked is different to how men might perceive it? Because I've had a lot of conversations where people are like, well, they don't like her because of X. And I think that has come up in so many different forms of conversations, and it's it does a bit of a disservice to women where they start to be more authoritative or they start to say no, and then that person starts to think, well, well, am I liked or am I not liked? Is that something that you would classically see surfacing as well as people get more senior, Sally?

Sally 13:26

Yes, and I do see it with men, although I would agree less so. And I think the biggest time that surfaces is when you have an internal promotion, when you've gone from being a peer to being recast in a new identity, often with only a weekend delineation between the two. It's quite interesting. So people go, oh yes, let's have a company meeting and maybe, you know, a few social drinks or whatever it might be. Oh, yeah, and by the way, Jane's been promoted and well done. She's now a client services director. And Jane's like excited and probably quite terrified. And then right from that moment, she's no longer one of the gang because she is the one that people will then be talking about in the pub or wherever people might gather. And that I've worked with people going through that transitional phase, and we're often really underprepared for it because I think being light is a human condition. We're tribal, aren't we? We're meant to be part of a gang and a group. So it's kind of part of our survival technique to not be ostracized. But it comes back, I think, to knowing your identity. And if you are safe and secure in your relationships outside of work, then it makes you less reliant on your relationships inside of work. But and also different people have different needs from being at work. Some people go to work because they want belonging and they are driven by motivation, which is around having a real, real connection beyond the job title. Other people, that is not interesting for them at all. They're there to do a job to get other values and motivation out of it. So I think it's dangerous to make sweeping statements as well about this for gender, because often it's very much about where you're at in your career, how strong your life is outside of work. And don't assume because someone's senior, it means they have great relationships outside of work. True. Often they don't.

Elizabeth 15:15

Yeah, that's true, actually. Although I do think that the relationship between sort of leadership and like ability can be different for women and men, although thankfully that seems to be changing now. I think historically, if you if you look at it, many of the traits we associate with sort of strong leadership, you know, decisiveness, assertiveness, ambition, directness, they are viewed positively in men, but could be interpreted very differently when displayed by a woman. And as a result, women sometimes find themselves sort of navigating a much narrower path. If you're too accommodating, people question your authority. If you're too direct, people question your warmth. Men are often given a bit more freedom and a bit more laissez-faire about these things, and they move between those leadership styles without any scrutiny. We're the ones that sort of, you know, going crazy sometimes about this. And you know, it's it's not a popularity contest that I had to learn over time and as I sort of, you know, grew older. But of course, relationships matter, as you said, Sally. You know, people want to work with leaders they trust and respect. But um there's definitely a difference between being liked and being respected. As a leader, you can't be everybody's friend, and you have to make decisions that are unpopular. And sometimes people will agree with those decisions and sometimes they simply won't.

Iman 16:37

Well, those things as well, people often have to remember that the most successful leaders are individuals who empower those around them and clear the path for success, and finally make it easy for you to do your job well. So at all levels of an organization, if a person at the top is making it easier for you to do your job and easier to feel empowered and easier to move through the ranks, then the organizational culture will also flourish in a much more fluid and meaningful way as well.

Elizabeth 17:07

Yeah, but also the organization needs to be built in a way that you're not needed anymore, right? Because you're building a legacy that should work without you. And that is a scary thing to propose. But when you did something, you did it right when you can walk out the door and the organization still stays, you know, uh stands its course.

Sally 17:27

Can I just build one point though? I think it's easy to forget when we talked about the likability factor. I think also going back to basics, and a lot of my work is about saying, hang on, hold, hold on, let's just go back to some fundamentals. So the question I would ask people listening this to answer, well, I mean you answer it two ways, answering

Liked Or Respected In Leadership

Sally 17:45

it just genuinely first off, and then answering it using a technique I call the real score test, which is where you take seven off the table, okay? Because seven is is a red herring, seven where it's it's is in my view where high performance and honesty hides. So if I ask this question, of a naught of a range of naught to ten, where seven is not an option for you, out and ten is like it couldn't be any better, how much do you like yourself? Yeah, and and your gut will have an answer, a number forming in your brain, whether you want to admit it or not. And I always say, look, this is not a PR contest, no one else needs to know this information, but in your range of naught to ten, when seven is not an option, where are you in that range on the real score test of how much you like yourself? Because if that isn't in place, if you're not eight and above, then no matter how much other people show you signals and messaging that they do like you, you will not be predisposed to receive them well. And your lens and your beliefs about yourself as a leader, as a team member, as a family member, gosh, they can be so polluted that if you're not looking in the mirror and liking the person looking back at you. That is a fundamental to have in place.

Iman 18:59

I think also it it plays into that point of how secure you are, because if you as an individual are secure in your capabilities, secure in your relationships, secure in how you show up, you will ultimately perform better as well. And you less worried what other people think.

Elizabeth 19:20

Yeah, definitely. But you know, I reached a point, and that might be my age, I'm not sure, but I stopped asking myself whether people liked me, and I started asking whether they trusted me. Because, in essence, trust is what leadership is built on. Not, it's not, you know, to your point, it's not a popularity contest, it is, you know, a PR contest. It is whether they can trust the leadership and buy into the vision of the agency and where it's meant to go and where the ship is sailing. And then you have buy-in, right? So yeah, I think that's a very important point.

Sally 19:56

Well, I did some research with a book that's coming out this month in June, and I interviewed amazing leaders across military, academia, um, C-suite leaders, branded agency side, uh, elite sports people, Olympians, as I said. And I asked them about what were the key high performance traits that they saw in leadership, uh, especially when the stakes are high. And the number one one was trust. See? Yeah. It came up by a mile, or every person, unprovoked, and I asked them the question, that was their number one answer. If you want to have a high performance team culture, be a high performance leader, especially when the stakes are high. Trust is what you have to have in place as a fundamental. And were there key natural rooms, so they said, built that type of trust as well? Well, it was followed by courage and energy, which was interesting. And and then the last one in the top nine that I also talk about, because I think it's gotta uh it's gotta have more oxygen, was recovery. Because if you're not building in time to recover as a leader, and especially in the world today, and I don't need to tell you guys it's stressful, it's unpredictable, it's dangerous as well. That the first thing that can go when it comes to high performance in times of stress, difficulty is recovery. But how can you be trusting in yourself or others if you are tired, exhausted, burnt out, running on fewes in either your life or your leadership? You just can't. So you've got to have to have trust, you've got to be healthy, you know, and you also need energy and courage to stay something that Elizabeth mentioned earlier, which is so important, consistent. You know, if you've got you cannot trust people if you don't, if you can't predict their behavior. Oh, very true, yeah.

Elizabeth 21:44

But also, I think we often think that, you know, trust comes from having all the answers. No. In my experience, trust, you know, comes more from being honest, you know, being clear when you sometimes

Trust And High Performance Traits

Elizabeth 21:55

or something isn't clear, and being transparent when you don't have the answer and being Willing to make uh decisions even when the answer isn't perfect, but to also uh seek help and be vulnerable to a degree, you know, and show that side. Because yes, you you lead that organization, but you are a human being, you know. You have children that get sick, you have days where you don't feel well, you have days where you don't have time to, you know, even think for four minutes, and yeah, you've done a terrible job at your own time boxing and and figuring out your day because 15 other things came in unplanned. So, you know, it's uh it's that as well. But as Sally said, you know, it's it trust is built through predictability. They people need to know a version of you that they are going to get. Um, you know, if you're calm one day and reactive the next, that's totally fine. But you know, you you need to uh sort of be very careful that trust then doesn't erode very quickly once you've built it. And you know, part of that trust is also accountability. You know, I don't expect perfection from anyone, but I do expect ownership. And the same applies to leaders. So when something goes wrong, people are watching, you know, how you respond. Do you blame others or do you take responsibility and focus on solutions? And um, that's a super key point, I think, as to how you know you have a sort of tripod of trust, you've got competency or competence or consistency and then uh care. And that those I think build trust sort of long term.

Sally 23:28

Do you want to hear a really unscientific way of measuring trust? Absolutely. And I would say a metric of high performance in a team and within oneself, how often are you laughing together? Because it I don't mean surface, I mean the uh the laughter that really hits the eye comes from the heart and the gut and the belly, you know? I love that, yeah. If a team is genuinely laughing together, genuinely, then they have trust, they have camaraderie, they have belief. They're in it, you know. If it if a team isn't laughing together, and I don't mean like all the time, I mean, this is a serious world we're all inhabiting right now, but even so, I think if you look in the military, if you look in uh doctors and nurses, they have that kind of black humor to bond them, don't they? They have a humor that allows them to deal with stress, to deal with, and to trust each other that they're not going to get, and I'm not talking about being inappropriate here, I'm not condoning things that aren't appropriate, but a team that truly laugh together, I believe that's a team who have each other's backs.

Iman 24:29

As when you're laughing, you're also letting out energy. And I think, you know, we work in an environment that often is a high pressure, high stress environment, potentially long working hours, some tight deadlines. You you've got to let off some relief. And a joke here and there can really just make the world of difference to a team. And I think also, as well, we talked about, you know, leaders being able to let their guard down a little bit. It also shows up as human beings. You know, we're all sitting in a room together, we're all trying to get through a big task together. You don't have to be barricaded as I am the leader doing this one job and everybody else is around me. You know, you can break down those boundaries through those nice little interactions and honestly having a bit of banter. I'm always down for some mass banter, to be honest.

Elizabeth 25:12

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and getting stuck in with each other, right? Especially in the events industry when you have, you know, night shifts or you have uh doors opening at eight and at you know 7:45, there's still plastic around the bloody plants, you know, you that and you go and you take it off. It doesn't matter what your title is, you know, you roll up your sleeves and you you kind of uh get ready and take pride in that as well and you know be there with with everyone else. And yeah, you can't, you can't, you know, it's better than any sort of team building exercise, you know, when you go through a hectic sort of event setup together with everyone uh and then come out okay and as a massive success with a very happy client.

Iman 25:51

So if we were to sort of wrap up today's episode,

Laughter As A Trust Signal

Iman 25:55

would we say it's about leaning into being your authentic self, knowing exactly who you are, having the courage to say no, but making sure that in this world of work you are always finding moments for enjoyment. And if you can get that kind of combination right, then you will be setting yourself up for success and also paving the way for other people around you, whether they are from whatever types of background.

Sally 26:21

I would build on that and come at it from a slightly different angle. And I would say, because that in the nicest way, isn't that wonderfully feminine and soft and kind and gentle? And let's go opposite because all of that I do believe, and I'm doing this in humour, I'm laughing and taking this, but why don't we do it from another energy initially? Which is I would say, go selfish, go brave, go bold, and put yourself first. Because if you're not doing that initially, then everything else is harder to achieve. So to be authentic, to have time to laugh, I get I I totally we've talked about that, I completely concur. But that often is the very normal advice women get. Whereas they don't often get told, be selfish, put yourself first, make peace with boundaries, find your drive and protect it fearlessly, and make yourself happy. Because if you're happy in a with boundaries and with balance, then you're going to have, I think, a greater experience that's richer in every sense.

Elizabeth 27:34

Love it. And Elizabeth? That was beautifully summed up, and I wouldn't actually attempt

Final Takeaways Go Bold

Elizabeth 27:40

to add anything else to it because I completely concur.

Iman 27:43

All right. Thank you so much for joining. I feel like I could go on for another half an hour or an hour, um, but we'll probably save that for another day. Thank you so much for your time. It's been really much chatting.

Sally 27:55

Thanks for having us, Ivan. Oh, it's been a joy.

Iman 27:58

The Edge of Influence was brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa, and North 75. The executive producer was myself, Iman Isa, and the producer was Ian Carlos. And this podcast was produced by North75 and PodWorks Dubai 2.