Request For Partnership: Rethinking the RFP Process

In this episode of The Edge of Influence, host Iman Issa, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of North Seventy Five is joined by is joined by Fiona Menzies, Head of Marketing, HH and Nick Walsh, Founder & CEO, Migrate and Founding Regional Partner, Alliance of Independent Agencies Middle East, and together they make the case for "request for partnership" over the traditional agency RFP. 

Fiona shares how she filters agency selection from the client side, from chemistry meetings and tissue sessions, to why she wants agencies bringing her proactive ideas rather than chasing the next new logo. And Nick explains why a transactional pitch process fails both sides, and flags the "September RFP" as a red flag worth watching for. 

Plus practical takeaways for both sides of the table on writing better briefs and building real, long-term partnerships.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Iman Issa
Editor: Ian Carless
Executive Producers: Iman Issa & Ian Carless
Produced by: North Seventy Five & Poddworx Dubai

Transcript

Welcome And The New RFP

Iman 0:17

Hello and welcome back to The Edge of Influence, a podcast brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. I'm your host, Iman Issa, and today we're talking about request for partnership, a slight spin on the traditional RFP process. And I'm joined by Fiona Menzies, who is head of marketing at HH, and Nick Walsh, founder and CEO of Migrate and champion of independent agencies with the Alliance for Independent Agencies Middle East. Thank you for joining us.

Nick 0:49

Thanks, Iman. Good to be back.

Fiona 0:51

Thanks for the invite.

Iman 0:52

Welcome. Okay, so in terms of looking at the Middle Eastern landscape, Fiona, you're obviously currently on the client side, but in your former life, you've been on the agency side. I understand that you have been revisiting what the RFP process looks like and really around how you bring in partners that support your brand and its vision and mission. What have you been doing differently?

Chemistry Before The Brief

Iman 1:16

Hi Iman.

Fiona 1:17

Lovely to meet you. I mean, I think I have approached all of our agency selections since I've been in the role with a slightly different filter. Like you say, having been on the agency side, I understand the wasted time, effort, resource, and money, frankly, pitching for work that ultimately you win and sometimes don't even want to do or can't do. So I think I spend a lot more time before it gets to RFP, getting to know the potential partners. We're not procuring staples, we're buying creative. And I think that's the really key differentiator while procurement has its place. And I would say that place is really to remove bias, and creative services should be bought on a much more human-to-human level. So yeah, I think we do spend time as a marketing team, as a marketing department, getting to know potential partners, chemistry meetings, tissue sessions, sort of aligning, checking we think in a similar way. You know, we want to be challenged, but we also want to work with people we want to work with. And ultimately it's all about brilliant work. Um, I think brilliant work comes from great alignment and great chemistry and obviously great planning and insight, which you'd expect from any agency.

Partnership Over Presentation Theatre

Iman 2:34

And Nick, I know from your side, you've been thinking about the request for partnership piece quite a lot. And I think a lot of your approach and advice that we've heard over the last, particularly like few weeks, few months, around the eight Cs is something that potentially matches what Fiona's been saying.

Nick 2:52

Yeah, absolutely. Um, we've we've sort of branded it um request for partnership because we kind of we feel it will it will stick in the industry. Um RFP, those those kind of dreaded three letters, it lands in your inbox and it's um very much response for pitch. It's pretty transactional in nature. But if if we're looking at kind of long-term partnerships, it sort of troubles us why the selection process is so transactional. You know, response or pitch means you send us something and we'll see if we like it and then we'll move forward. Whereas um request for partnership, um, as Fiona mentioned, should be about bringing the right partners together. It's not a piece of presentation theater. And we're not talking, this is not anti-pitch or anti-competition. Competition is really healthy and it keeps agencies on their toes, and I think it keeps clients honest with how they got the best partner. It's the process and needs to test the right things. And Fiona's mentioned some of them. So, you know, it's not about choosing the best presentation on a Tuesday, it's about choosing the partner you want around the table when things get difficult six months later. So it's really that's what we're trying to coin with the idea of requests for partnership. But I've been in the region for nearly 20 years, uh mostly in large network agencies. You know, we've got hundreds and hundreds of pictures. Imagine you're the same from agency side. You know, you can get into triple figures in a in a in a year sometimes. And whilst that's exciting, it's also pretty scary. And as Fiona mentioned, it's a massive waste of good resources. And everyone points at everyone else. So agencies point at procurement usually, um, clients point at agencies, age procurement points at everyone, um, and it becomes a bit of a kind of opinion piece on on who thinks you know is doing the worst job. But actually, I think everyone's got to put their hand up and you know take a little bit of responsibility. And this is something that needs improving in the market. The Middle East has a pretty tough reputation when it comes to the word RFP, and we know that from our international agencies you work with. It puts people off coming into the market, it hurts people kind of emotionally and personally because weekends worked and nights wasted, and and you know, a lot of a lot of effort goes into these

Long-Term Value And Agency Focus

Nick 4:58

things.

Iman 4:58

So I'll just interrupt you really quickly just on that point, because I think one of the things that's really important when we think about client relationships is a lot of the RFPs that are coming out that I see are for two-year or even three-year mandates. So I don't think we're necessarily seeing as many one-year mandates. Sometimes it could be a proposal for one year with the ability to extend. And I think the way that these RFPs are being structured really does emphasize the word partnership. So I think the question then becomes what are two or three things that clients can do either in collaboration with procurement or in collaboration with their executive team to make sure the way in which a marketing RFP process is done is looked at in a slightly different lens for Yona.

Fiona 5:48

I mean, it's kind of interesting just listening to you talking there. I the request for partnership to me is less about the length of the contract and from a you know, from a client's perspective, it's more about I'm building H H, we're building, we're we're building places and communities and destinations that will be there for a hundred years plus. Um, so when I'm looking for a partner, I'm looking for a partner to help me shape those places. So it's a really long-term strategic partnership, not a contracted list of time to work with them and develop some campaigns. Um, because they will ultimately have that same ownership of, you know, they will have helped us build a brand that that lasts them many years. So I think whilst we don't necessarily put RFPs out into the market for long-term contracts, we really build um, I would say our agencies earn their place on our roster. They do a great piece of work. We want to work with them again. We want to retain them, we want to grow their business because they're helping us grow ours. So it's, I guess, yes, our RFPs would definitely be requests for partnership, but not in it's quite hard to quantify. Hopefully that explains it when I'm looking at these um agencies. I and I put myself in their position, you know, they're maybe quite young or they're maybe quite new to the market, particularly in the independent sector. And I know that my work will be valuable to them and important to them and will help open other doors. So, and equally their support of me and our business is is super valuable, um, and it's quite rare to find. I think just going back to your previous point about responding to RFPs, I the thing that I find interesting is you could be working with a great agency, but they will take their eye off the ball to go and pitch for something else when actually that they could expand their services within the business they're already in, but instead they sort of, you know, they're you know, they just want to do something different or they need another win or they're hitting a different KPI. I think that can sometimes feel that agencies, particularly here in the region, are not really proactively growing the business they have. Um, they're wanting to add new clients and and you know, build their own roster.

Iman 8:11

So as a client, would you say you notice when your agency team feels distracted by potentially more RFPs or other clients?

Fiona 8:20

Yeah, definitely. And you know, I get that. And that's why you work in an agency oftentimes, right? To to work on new things and learn new industries. So I think it's it's part of the cause that they're going to be pitching for other work. But I am often surprised at how little they come and pitch to me for more work.

Iman 8:38

As in like to give you proactive ideas.

Fiona 8:41

Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, that's the key, you know, a relationship isn't just one on one pitch and then one campaign and that's it. I expect the agency to continually add value, generate new ideas, come to me with, you know, proactive, market response-driven ideas, or you know, whatever their sort of remit is. And I think that's a massively missed opportunity.

The Eight Cs For Selection

Iman 9:05

So, Nick, I guess looking at what Fiona was saying in terms of like having a good agency roster, getting your foot in the door, doubling down on building the relationship, what is the role of the client and the procurement team to better facilitate that approach so that clients are getting better service, better love, better ideas, whilst agencies are also able to grow and obviously bringing board new clients as well.

Nick 9:34

Yeah, I mean, Fiona's line it, and for all of them, for all agency people listening in, I think that's a massive, massive, uh, massive helping hand there from Fiona. It is an interesting kind of hamster wheel chase. You've got to chase the next big thing, whereas actually a lot of the time the biggest opportunities are with the client relationships you already have. So thanks, Fiona, for that. I'm hoping uh people lock that one in because it is easy to chase the next big thing rather than um, and I think that's where agencies have to put their hands up. Um, but uh Fiona leaned into it, and I think this is kind of one of the big, big reasons we want to have this conversation today because it's almost the start of the partnerships comes way before the pitch itself. And you know, having procurement CMOs, CEOs, the marketing team aligned on the selection process and how it's done is pretty critical. Often we find a kind of list of agencies is logged in with the procurement team, and that's it. You've got to choose from that. They might have been on that list for 15 years. It means that marketers aren't necessarily getting the best and what's new and the best capabilities having to choose from a pool that's already there. And and you you you mentioned earlier on about the kind of the eight C's that we we look at now, and Fiona leaned into those as well, which I think is really helpful. So at the beginning, the marketing requirements, the needs of a business change from year to year. Agencies can be agile enough to stick up for that, but sometimes you need something new. So it's about really understanding what the brand genuinely needs and why when you start the process, because some agencies can solve that problem, others can't. We've just come out the back of a very tricky period in the region, and the requirements of a business might be different than they were six months ago. So that might need new skill set. Um, it's about chemistry. You've got to work in partnership, you've got to be in the trenches with these people sometimes. So the leadership, the people you work with day to day, who are they? Um, this comes way before the actual RFP process itself. Then looking at things like credentials and case studies, you know, it's recent work, it's relevant work. It's what do they what do these credentials say? How are they going to help me with my business? And then case studies that, you know, address similar business challenges, not just the ones that win awards, but actually they're in my sector. Have they done the type of work that I need to help me with my business? And then it's into in things like capability, and I'll touch on later on in terms of how we bring different capability skill sets together. But do they have real debt of specialists, not just some one person in the team that talks good game? And I think that's these are the sub questions you need to ask. And that's where the time needs to go in. And that isn't always done when a RFP is released, it's released without any of that work being done. Um, and I think if if clients and agencies uh and brands and procurement were willing to take more time in that process, we'd see a better output. Um, that would then allow us to kind of get into areas like commercials and you know, making sure there's transparency at the start. If an agency's too big to do the work, you know, they're going to be too expensive, they're too small, they're not gonna, you know, the it it the commercials need to be at a slightly more level playing

Budget Transparency And Better Pitches

Nick 12:31

field.

Iman 12:31

And then we've got things like so it's on commercials. I I do want to touch on commercials with us. That's okay, because I think when it comes to the RFP process, and and I've been in the agency world for over 20 years now, I would say that I could probably count on one hand the amount of times that clients include their budget and the amount of difference that that actually makes on the agency side. And it's not that you'll get more or less effort if the budget is much bigger or much smaller, but the transparency levels the playing field to Nick's point, but B, it allows us to ensure we have the right resourcing, the right approach. You know, we're not going to come in and promise things that we can't deliver. You can do really smart pitch processes that allow us to show you, you know, creativity or strategic thinking or reputation building, whilst also being very conscious of, you know, whether it's small, medium, or large. So why is it do you think clients are so reluctant to include budgets? And again, if you think about the full marketing mix, from a PR agency side, it's really important. But if you're maybe a creative agency or an experiential agency, it becomes almost impossible to pitch if you don't know the budgets.

Fiona 13:48

Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, I will always put a budget in an RFP or uh any kind of pitch process because, and this is how I explain it to people that haven't necessarily done that in the past. You ask someone to organize a wedding for you, they could either have six six mates down the pub in the registry office, or you could take Avan Necker Island with 400 of your closest friends. And that's still a wedding, right? And you know, I used to say that when I was agent size, I'd say that to clients what kind of wedding do you want? You know, you could have this or this, but to in order for the for them to give me clarity, because ultimately it doesn't matter whether it's 100,000 durings or it's 20 million durings, you can, you know, it that shouldn't hamper or halt your ideation process, right? It's about using that money in the best way possible to create the best result and the best work. So I completely believe in being transparent on the budget. I might hold 10% back because there's always a few extras that you want to um add on or that they, you know, that you don't think about um during the during the process. But I think not giving the budget is it's a waste of time and it does not create better creative. So um keeping budget a secret ultimately is a wasted effort and does not result in better creative.

Iman 15:07

Do you think it's a global trend, not including budgets? Obviously, you've worked in the UK and you said you worked in the USA as well. Is this reluctance to share budget a Middle Eastern thing or is it a global issue?

Fiona 15:18

I've seen it a lot more here in the region. I think in other regions, transparency is absolutely number one priority in this type of process. So I think many agencies wouldn't pitch if they didn't have a budget defined here in the region. I think there's maybe just a again, it's it's because the process is so procurement driven that if they can buy a thousand staples for a thousand durums and someone else is saying it's 1200 durms, they'll go with the, you know, they'll go with the company that supplies the the the staples at the at the cheaper price. They don't understand that buying creativity is an emotional human decision. It's not a transactional. We are people, it's about all about uh the feel you get from when you see the work, when you meet the team, and you're translating that feel and that feeling to the market to create that same kind of behavior change. So I think ultimately that's not uh that is not a department or a specialist in the the usual people procurement departments that would not be high on their kind of um traits, I

Procurement Pressure And Hidden Budgets

Fiona 16:26

guess.

Iman 16:26

I um I did this training years ago, and I always say it was one of the it was really, really a fabulous training that we did. And it was around understanding the procurement mindset of cost savings and actually almost teaching agencies to you know factor in that sort of 10, 15, 20% buffo, or to develop proposals that would indicate to procurement teams that they have generated a cost saving. A lot of this training was around procurement teams, KPIs to demonstrate to the business that they have obviously saved the business money. And I guess, Nick, how do we then take that understanding of the role of procurement, which also includes, you know, governance and accountability as well, like be really transparent there? How do we balance the desire for a business to be seamless, efficient, have good governance, demonstrate that it's saving money, whilst also understanding that in our sector, in our industry, we're about people, we're about emotions, we're about selling ideas. And if we don't have transparency on the budget, we're gonna fall short consistently.

Nick 17:29

No, sure. And I think it's really, really good point. And I think the what we've got to be careful of again is commercial transparency is the headline here. Like transparency doesn't mean removing procurement rigor. It's needed, it's it's certainly needed, but I think again, that budget needs to be set in line with the ambition. So I I really I like I like Fiona's wedding analogy, right? You can we all want a you know a bigger house or a bigger car or to go on a more expensive holiday, right? But we can only we can only do what we can afford, right? So sometimes I think it's being able to match ambition with budget, and that that needs to come ahead of procurement. That needs to come from you know the the marketing leadership in terms of we need to achieve this and we have this much money to do it. So both sides need to have clarity right at the beginning on whether a partnership is commercially viable. And if there is no budget, it's impossible. Agency shouldn't discover the real budget after winning, and clients shouldn't discover the real cost after appointing. And I think the last thing I'll mention is that one of the other issues you have with RFPs is sometimes an RFP, it's a big indicator if there's no budget, because quite often that means that project hasn't been signed off internally. So I always say beware of the September RFP, because that September RFP will be will be floated um without a budget, because actually you're trying to figure out how much it's going to cost, and we need designs and ideas to present upwards. And then if that gets signed off, then this RFP will go forward. So you're almost you're you're doing a pitch before the pitch. And I think a lack of commercial transparency sometimes demonstrates that that's not a real project. It's just we need someone to do the due diligence and think and actually give us a cost to then put this forward. I think it's probably a massive amount of wastage in that as well.

Fiona 19:16

Yeah, I think um on the looking at that with my client hat on, not all companies are defining their full marketing budget as and and seeing marketing as an in as an investment. The heavily procurement-driven companies obviously see marketing as more of a cost. So and yeah, you're right, there is definitely an element of um trying to figure out how much something might cost and whether they can do it next year or present it and get it approved as a as a sort of standalone project. But I think that that comes from not having a fully defined marketing budget that's based on return and investment. Um that's quite a regional thing, I think. Businesses I've worked with. When I was when I was agency side, the business I I worked with often didn't have their full budget for the year planned. So yeah, that's it's a challenge.

Nick 20:10

The only other thing I was gonna say, Piano, is I think you know, there's all there's an awful lot of um pressure on on agency uh commercials, especially with AI and especially how things can be done quicker now, and especially, you know, there's an awful lot of pressure on rate cards and hourly rates, and then there's also a lot of discussion around how should you charge, should you should you charge, should hourly rates be gone, should there be incentives on success? Should there be you know things linked uh some part of the commercial linked to the there's there's lots of different discussions around this at the moment, but I think if we're able to start with commercial transparency, so this is the budget we have to do this, then I think agencies can be a lot more agile in the way they price because you're doing it for the success, the total success around a around a number. And I think that's what that also that lack of commercial transparency sometimes puts an awful lot of pressure on the entire model.

Iman 21:04

I would just add one point on the AI piece, which is whilst there is a perception that AI can make agencies more affordable, the use of AI in the marketing industry has to match with an organization's policies and procedures. What can AI be used for? What can it not be used for? What is allowed to be automated? What is not allowed to be automated? You know, where does the human kind of touch still sit? And that obviously has a role to play in both the commercials and on the people side, because at the end of the day, people buy people, they want to have good chemistry, good relationships. And I think those conversations are sometimes missing when we talk about AI and commercials.

Fiona 21:49

I also think, yeah, totally, Iman. Um to that point. It's interesting.

AI Risks And The Sea Of Sameness

Fiona 21:55

Recently, we ran an RFP process um with a long list. Very simple process, credentials, capabilities, um, case studies. We then shortlisted that down to five agencies. Um, not a full creative pitch, but a sort of strategy and approach of the five agencies, three agencies came back with the same campaign line and imagery. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I mean, I think whilst each agency's right looked lovely and was very on-brand, and they were clearly using an open AI source. And um I doubt agency people realise that they're accessing exactly the same as everybody else. Um they're getting the same insights and they're being pushed down the same creative route. But yeah, quite shocking to see even the same imagery um being pulled through into decks and the sea of sameness, which you're completely trying to avoid, you know, as a client. So that was they those three agencies were immediately a kind of no, because clearly no original thinking coming through at all.

Iman 23:05

Yeah, and I think a lot of what you've been talking about is people, connections, creativity, and again, it's you know, if it has a role, it has a role. But if you're showing up to a pitch and you clearly haven't done the work and you've used tools to speed up and then everyone looks the same, you're already gonna judge the agency and say, well, what kind of quality of work am I gonna get in the long run?

Fiona 23:28

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, and to your point, Nick, I know you were talking about um capabilities. I think there's a an there's a lot of swimming outside your swim lane um going on here. And you know, the beauty of the independent sector and independent agencies is that they are, they are and should be experts in their area. And if that's a niche area, then be brilliant in that area and say no to RFPs and work that that is not within your capability.

Nick 23:59

I couldn't agree more, Fiona. We've spoken we've spoken about this at length, and this is kind of my favorite subject of the moment, which is you know, if independents, I think, have this real opportunity. Globally, it's happening already, but certainly in the Middle East, it's been it's been sort of underground for too long. And with the alliance, especially what we're doing is you know, there's a there's a really beautiful appetite to collaborate. Often an agency will come in with a kind of standard cookie-cutter solution. We've done this for one client, so we can do it for you, and here's what it looks like, and that's quite a big thing by big agencies. We've done it with the years and years, but now, more and more, that solution doesn't come from a standard cookie-cutter solution, and it certainly doesn't come from one agency. So, this kind of idea of ecosystems and connecting specialist capabilities around the problem, so you don't have to run an RFP for a CX agency and a performance agency separately. Independence shouldn't is a weird one, but our independent ecosystem actually is the opposite, and a lot of times it's not about isolation, it's about bringing scale and capability together and making sure that we've got the right solution to the business problem. I think that's where a wonderful moment arrives. Where and I know you're pulling together a brilliant roster of different capabilities, but then the trick is how do you sew them together? How do you make sure they're working together as one? And that I think is the big future opportunity for the Middle East.

Independent Ecosystems And Collaboration

Iman 25:19

Just um as we're sort of heading towards the end of today's episode, I think we've covered so many different areas that clients can learn from and agencies learn from. And I think there is definitely going to be a meeting in the middle. But Fiona, from your point and just sort of some words of wisdom, what would be three three things you would encourage individuals, counterparts sitting on the client side to change when they're running a request for partnership over an RFP process?

Fiona 25:51

Firstly, chemistry, don't overlook that very important part. It's not the soft bit, it's the strongest predictor of future success. Secondly, I think to write better RFPs. I know that sounds obvious, but don't ask for a scoped list of deliverables to be priced. Share your challenge and allow the agency to solve it with your budget. This is my challenge, this is my budget. Tell me how you solve it. It's as simple as that. And I think also to just to take time, partnerships, particularly in marketing, they they build, they grow. Agencies should be earning your trust and earning your business. And marketers really have to feel like they're in a partnership with their agency, and that isn't something they're not either a partner or a supplier. They become a partner when they properly become a partner and you want to see them after work or you want to call them on the way to work because you've got a challenge you need to solve. You know, that's when an agency, I think, can be considered a proper partner. Um, so I guess yeah, they would probably be my three

Three Changes Clients Should Make

Fiona 27:03

things.

Iman 27:03

I love I love those. I think I think everyone can take those on board, and I actually fundamentally agree with all three of them as well. Nick, from your side, what would be your three pieces of advice to agencies?

Nick 27:17

Well, I mean, the easiest thing is for me to match up, match up with uh with Fiona's because that would that that would make perfect partnership. I think Fiona's um mentioned a couple of really key things today. You know, one or certainly the last one around AI and then you know, three agencies are presenting the same work. That's um that's quite scary. And I think that's something we'll we'll use as a as a soundbite um in some of our conversations. But yeah, I think it's I think I think the relationship part is key. Um, where you can't build a relationship because you're stuck behind a procurement portal than when there isn't commercial transparency and when the timelines are too tight, I think that's when agencies really need to ask themselves the question: is this worth my time? Is my time better spent working on my current client roster to Fiona's point? Um so I think for agencies, and that's what we're driving, even if even if we got to a stage where agencies refused to pitch, if there was no opportunity to meet the client to start with, if there was no commercial transparency and if there were no timelines, that would rapidly improve the entire industry. But every agency would need to commit to that. And I think the the harshest part is that you know we're probably we're probably a long, a long way from that. So, yeah, there would be three things. One thing I just wanted to cover off, Iman.

When Agencies Should Refuse To Pitch

Nick 28:33

We talked about this being a whole industry challenge. It's not just about what clients can do, it's not just about agencies can do or procurement. Some of the things we've been doing, as you're aware, is is the directory. So the other thing is brands, clients, and procurement don't know what's out there. And that is a massive barrier to this entire process we're talking about at the moment. If you don't know what's out there, how do you find the agency? Um, especially the agencies new, Iman, which you'll be aware of, how do you find them? It's not easy for independents to get exposure in media. In fact, it's impossible. You know, that really grinds on me in the industry. There's, you know, there's more than a thousand independent agencies in the Middle East. Yeah. Um, we've mapped them in a directory, you know, for it for us, that information should be readily available so that brands and procurement have access to that. It's been a big barrier for a long time. With the Alliance, obviously, what we're trying to do is raise standards, connectivity, make sure there's a collective action, so there's an industry that's been missing for a long time. But you know, ultimately, if we're able to, you know, make it easier for brands and procurement to identify, know that an agency is quality, know they look after their own people well. Um, if we're able to give visibility of new agencies coming into town, the truth is there are still a lot of gaps in capability in the Middle East. And Friano, I'm sure we will mention that sometimes you've got to go international, sometimes you've got to go to New York or London or Paris or Singapore because there just isn't the skill set in the Middle East. And I think we have to acknowledge that sometimes. So, yeah, there's there's an awful lot to do with structure, which obviously, as you're aware, we're building a lot of that infrastructure, a lot of that visibility, a lot of the standards. So these things will help in the future. There's you know, there's a lot of work that needs to be done there before we can, you know, just start saying it's about the chemistry or it's about the brief or it's about the commercials. These are things I think we can will really start to move the needle in the region.

Directory, Standards, And Final Takeaways

Iman 30:28

Well, hopefully what we've done today is given agencies and clients and procurement teams different perspectives and different things to think about, because we have covered a lot from how you discover new agencies, how you approach the process, how you double down on chemistry, how we integrate more transparency, how we write better RFPs, how we really think about, you know, the commercial value that both sides of the fence can have, and ultimately how we can have better partnerships that lead to better work and more engaging relationships across the board. So thank you very much, Fiona, for your time. And Nick, great to chat as always.

Nick 31:07

Thanks, Ivan.

Iman 31:08

Thank you, Evan. The Edge of Influence was brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa, and North 75. The executive producer was myself, Iman Easter, and the producer was Ian Carlos. And this podcast was produced by North75 and PodWorks Dubai.