What CMO's Want - Building the Right Agency Ecosystem

This week on The Edge Of Influence, host Iman Issa - Co-Founder and Managing Partner of North Seventy Five, is joined by Alasdair Hall Jones - GCC Director, The Marketing Society and Firas Wahbeh - Chief Brand and Strategy Officer, BEEAH Group, to unpack how the CMO role has shifted from managing marketing output to helping shape business strategy.

They dig into why the rise of specialist agencies (retail media, influencer, AI) is fragmenting the marketing ecosystem even as holding companies consolidate, and make the case for treating agencies as an extension of the internal team rather than a vendor relationship.

The conversation also covers a candid discussion about AI and the idea that rather than replacing creative talent, instead it should free up agencies to do work that wasn't possible before.

Production Credits:

Presented by: Iman Issa
Editor: Ian Carless
Executive Producers: Iman Issa & Ian Carless
Produced by: North Seventy Five & Poddworx Dubai

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Iman 0:17

Hello and welcome back to the Edge of Influence, a podcast brought to you by the Alliance of Independent Agencies, Middle East and North Africa and North 75. I'm your host, Iman Easter. Today I'm joined by Alistair Hall Jones, GCC Director of the Marketing Society, and Foras Wackba, Chief Brand and Strategy Officer of Via Group. And today we are talking about what CMOs want. Welcome to the show.

Alasdair 0:42

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Iman. Good to

The CMO As Business Leader

Alasdair 0:45

be with you guys.

Iman 0:45

So let's have a look at what's changing in your world. So to start with, how do you see the roles of a chief marketing officer evolving today for us?

Alasdair 0:55

So I think the CMO role is evolving and evolving rapidly. I think it's gone from being some sort of someone who manages marketing output to someone who's shaping more of the direction of the organization. At least that's been my kind of experience here in my journey with the organization I've been in called Bia. And it's it's it's a natural evolution, I think, for a CMO, especially one that's uh if if they've been in an organization for a while, the role tends to evolve into that kind of someone who's involved in the direction of the organization, someone who's involved in it across the decision making, the strategy, the transformational changes, even things like organizational design are things I've been looking into as well. So so I I feel like even things like AI strategies, so you know, those are things that I've been looking into. And I think most CMOs who've had a lot of experience and a lot of time spent invested in an organization tend to, their role tends to evolve into that.

Iman 2:08

And Alistair, obviously, as the marketing society, I believe you've got 650 members across the region. Is that evolution into more of a business strategy something that you're observing as well?

Firas 2:20

Yeah, definitely. I I think marketing's um role, especially probably after COVID, has has evolved and changed. I mean, our tagline is that we are for marketers who mean business. So ultimately we want marketeers who are passionate about their career and but also those who see their role as ultimately to drive business growth. And we really see that as the role of a marketeer and the the sort of the challenge of delivering on short-term numbers, which is always absolutely critical. But ultimately, we believe the role of marketing and the CMO is to drive long-term sustainable brand growth, ultimately. And that's quite easy to said um and or done on paper, but it's very hard to do in reality. But certainly this role of um, you know, the marketing function driving growth, whether that's in revenue or fans or customers, whatever it might be, um, you know, is absolutely critical. But the role's definitely changed. Um, you know, the introduction of tech, the ability and need for marketers to work closer with the CFO and chief AI officer, CIO, whatever it might be, is more important than ever. You know, and marketing really does, you know, we believe sit at the the the sort of the middle of the business. Um and ultimately marketing kind of feeds into every other department. So have seen big changes over um and probably the last five years. Um, but ultimately we need marketers who see themselves as business leaders and people that can drive business growth, not just people that create great advertising or storytellers, but it has to have that commercial strength behind it.

Iman 3:42

So

Why Long-Term Agency Partnerships Win

Iman 3:43

when we start to think about the agency landscape and how you bring them into this environment, do you think there is an opportunity or a disconnect in the way that the CMO role is working as a business strategy versus the way that agencies are potentially interacting around campaigns and brand development from a focus perspective?

Firas 4:05

Potentially. I mean, I think every agency and every relationship is different. But I think those that are in sort of long-term, you know, partnerships, you know, that they're ultimately centrally aligned to the business goals, not just the marketing goals. And I think that's really, really critical. So you see some long-term relationships between brands and agencies that work well, where they're really aligned at a cultural level, not just, you know, a relationship with the marketing director or CMO, but really ingrained in businesses. I think they get it. And they can have a really, really big impact. You know, we see a lot of short-termism when it comes to relationships, you know, changing every year or every two years. It's very, very difficult to have that continuity. And as such, then that does lead to sort of short-term thinking, more campaign focused rather than business focused. Um, naturally, sometimes you have to get into that level. But I think the relationships of long-term agency-client relationships, um, who can challenge each other, who can build on experience, who really understand the culture, I think the business outcome is going to be stronger. So I definitely think there is that, that element of it. Um, but I think if you see things as partnerships really ingrained into the business culture, not just the monitoring, then you can have more success.

Rethinking RFPs And Agency Selection

Iman 5:14

In a previous episode, we were talking about changing the RFP process, which can sometimes feel fairly transactional, into more of a request for partnership program. So looking at that need to have partners on board for a long time, making sure that they have a depth of understanding of the business and making sure they're meeting you, you know, at the C-suite table. So I think just touching on that point, how do you see that process potentially evolving or changing? Obviously, for us, you've been agency side, you've been in the client side for a long time. You know, you've gone through multiple agencies, you've now picked an independent agency to come on board your roster as well. How have you looked at your agency selection and has that process evolved over time?

Alasdair 5:58

Yeah, definitely. So I think this is a very sort of interesting topic with the agency, with sort of how you select the agencies and who you sort of choose to partner with. And uh, I know you use the word partner, and I think that's the uh key is to find partners. And I know everyone says that, but to me, what I've you know really defined that is someone where the people within that agency, people working on your account, feel like part of the team. That's the key for me, is there's always been the ones that the agencies that we we've worked with, and we've we've worked with several agencies, and our best longest standing relationships have been the ones that feel like they're part of the team. It doesn't feel like we're the client, we're the annoying client to them. They don't feel like they're the sort of uh defensive uh agency that's counting pennies or you know, counting the watching the clock on every project, or you know, and uh and and and and being difficult, so or or doesn't sort of feel our pain, right? So it has to be shared. There has to be sort of a shared objective that we want the agency to also succeed, we want them to enjoy uh working on us, we want them to be profitable, but we need them to also enjoy the challenges that that we have and for them to feel like they're their challenges as well, not just, you know, uh that's your problem. We will just do the work that you brief us on, and then you know, you make sure the rebrief is clear, you make sure you give us the budgets, you make so so it's it's it's been hard to in in 12 years here at Bia, we have several relations agency relationships that started off where the agency was really small, independent, and they've been with us for five years or six years. We've tried to maybe kind of organically, not totally on purpose, find agencies that are really good at specific specific things and and who are good at those things, who are fast at them, and who are really like feel like part of the team. And what we do, what we did even with agencies that were uh you know fairly new, we made sure they had the security of a retainer so that they would feel invested in in the relationship for for the long term. And that's worked out. So we've had agents whether it's uh our uh uh motion graphics and video editing agency, whether it's our sort of day-to-day design agency, whether it's um even our photographers and videographers, they're all been, they've all been with us for at least five years, if not more. Whereas with the bigger agencies, we've struggled. We've used several uh big agencies, whether it was on the advertising creative side or whether it's on the PR and communications side. And um that model has, you know, as it's no secret, has been struggling for for a while because it it struggles to, I think, provide value in in that way where there is mutual interest and there's mutual sort of agreement to succeed together. So that's that's been our challenge, and that's why we've tended to work more with independent agencies and have long-term relationships and use the the bigger agencies, the network agencies, um, when needed, when absolutely needed, and in a more strategic way.

Specialist Agencies And Fragmented Rosters

Iman 9:50

That kind of leads very nicely onto this you know thread around the rise of specialist agencies. And I think we're seeing more and more specialist agencies come into the Middle Eastern region. Do you think that is changing how CMOs are looking at their ecosystem? Is that a trend that you're seeing as well from the marketing society, Alistair?

Firas 10:11

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think over the last few years we we've seen um, you know, specialized agencies in certain things like retail media or you know, influencers that are absolutely critical to the role of a CMO now. Um but it comes very, very fragmented. You know, if you're taking the past maybe 20, 30 years ago, you might have a couple of agencies that would cover lots of different things. So there's a lot more relationships to manage now. It also then kind of fragments teams. So the role of the CMO is to be able to bring all of those together, you know, behind one sort of brand narrative, one you know, strategy that's aligned to the business strategy. Um and that's become can become very, very difficult. But you do need that now. You know, you do need, you know, a retail media agency that is a specialized in it if you really want to be able to deliver great work and and and really make an impact, the same with influencers, you know, the same with CRM, social, you know, creative brand, whatever it might be. So, you know, if you look at these larger, you know, marketing organizations, they probably have 10 to 12 different types of agencies within their roster. And the role of the CMO is is to be able to coordinate all of that, as I said, behind one brand narrative and align it into those business objectives. And so the role of the CMO and for marketing leaders is they have to be people that are great at building relationships and being able to manage those relationships as part of a wider team. And I think when when when CMOs and marketing teams see their agencies as extensions of their own team, you know, you get much stronger results. So I I certainly think there's a lot more breadth now because of those specialist agencies, but I I don't think they're necessarily going away. I I think you need that if you really want to be able to deliver big, ambitious, ambitious work across multiple areas.

Iman 11:48

And would you say even within the specialist landscape, do you think there are any gaps where there's still opportunities for either agencies to expand their offering or potentially for agencies to fill a niche? Is that is there something that you're observing there?

Firas 12:02

I think the the way that the industry always moves, there's always something that will come up. You know, there'll be, you know, three, four years ago, you know, you wouldn't have thought there'd be AI consultancies on every on every corner, but but there is now. So there will always be something. The industry always evolves, and the needs of, you know, services to provide that will be there. And and marketers just can't do that in-house. You know, the breadth of what we have to do now is just impossible. So that's where we do need those specialist agencies. And I think um we'll see it, we're seeing more and more of those come into this region, into the GCC region, which I think is a real, real strength as well. I think the more organizations that we can bring in from markets like Europe and the US and even Asia, that we can bring that credibility and quality into this region. I think it's only a strength for us here. Um, and we'll see the industry improve in the GCC.

Iman 12:47

I love that

Coordinating Independents Into One Ecosystem

Iman 12:48

you've touched on AI consultancies and AI agencies, because I think this is obviously a really hot topic for how it's potentially going to disrupt the agency landscape or potentially bring in cost-cutting measures or potentially better commercial value. Again, going back to one of the episodes we talked about, one of the clients was saying that she recently had run a pitch and that during that pitch process, three of the five proposals had pretty much the same creative, the same direction. So whilst there are benefits to AI, there's also potentially some real challenges with it. Where do you see AI fitting into the marketing mix, both from a challenge perspective and from a value perspective for us?

Alasdair 13:31

Can I comment on the whole specialist and ecosystem first?

Iman 13:34

Yeah, absolutely.

Alasdair 13:36

So I think the the and and and I don't know if you mind, but I want to actually get even both of your opinions on this idea of specialization. Are we trending more towards specialization or away from it now? Because I feel like with with all the big uh holding companies consolidating more, there's maybe less specialization coming on board when it comes maybe to the to the to the bigger agencies. Maybe the specialization is only coming at the sort of independent level. Is that do you do you both feel that way or or not really? Sorry to be one asking the questions.

Iman 14:15

No, that's the that's completely the whole the whole point of this. And I think we're almost in this inflection point in our industry right now where the big holding companies are saying, we are effectively this one-stop shop. You can come to us, we will cater to all of your needs, and we will be able to do that through multiple work streams. Does that service some of the big multinational brands very well? Potentially, the answer there is yes. Can they operate with potentially the same speed and agility that a small and more nimble agency could operate with? The answer there could be no. And I think what we're seeing with the independent agency landscape is a realization that there is so much destruction happening, and clients are looking for the opportunity to partner with people and a depth of relationship that they're sometimes feeling is lacking with the bigger agencies that are maybe more commercially driven. And that kind of balance, I think, is what's giving rise to more independence and a leaning towards independence, which I think that growth will happen over the next maybe three to five years. I think for me, the big opportunity then becomes how independents better coordinate themselves. Right. When you're sitting at a holding holding company, you'll often have a key client relationship manager who will help, you know, bring on board a client, filter them through multiple agencies, and act as that sort of, for want of a better word, you know, kind of puppet master, right? Here's all your agencies, we'll help do that coordination. When you go very independent, you as the client are having to manage, you know, 10, 12 agencies. So the question then is how do independent agencies mobilize themselves to give you depth of service, depth of specialization, but with someone who can really tie the agencies together. That's one way of looking at it.

Firas 16:04

Yeah, I think I think just to add as well. I mean, we we try and sometimes put a one size fits all on everything in the industry, and it never really works out like that. I mean, if you take some of the big organizations, uh, you know, Mercedes have built a team within Omnicon across all those specialties to try and bring that together within one relate, one relationship. But you're talking about a global brand across multiple markets and so on. Um, I I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all. I think it's what is best for you and your sector and your brand in your region, which could be different. I do think there is consolidation naturally at the holding group level. And I think sometimes that's important when you're working with big brands that you can work with people within one group. But I still think some of those more specialized things that are maybe a little bit newer in the industry, let's say influencers, I certainly see more of those kind of independent, smaller groups that are being used, as well as the holding groups. So I think when you're talking about kind of media, brand, creative, you know, advertising, like those bigger, bigger pools and the bigger budgets, yes, that probably sits more, you know, within one group. But I think the sort the smaller, sort of specialized or newer.

Alasdair 17:11

So my my experience has been um and I think along the lines of what both of you said, working with multiple agencies comes out of necessity. If I could make my life easier and find one relationship, one agency or whatever it is that can do everything for me, obviously that would make my life easier. And you know, but it's been hard to or impossible to find that. And I think that you know there's there's multiple reasons for that. So I think you end up doing so from an organization looking at how to deliver marketing, I I end up you know needing, you know, multiple agencies, multiple specialties, and then I have to create my ecosystem. And so so we've based it on making sure we have a foundation of agencies that we can rely on day in, day in, day out. We I know if I call at at midnight, they'll answer and and and help us out when we need to. And also then building in our own internal capabilities so so that we're not too overly reliant that we cannot deliver things if if if let's say we have a problem that we need to deliver on, a challenge that we need to deliver on with speed. We also that way retain a lot of the knowledge, so the knowledge is not uh all with just with the agencies. So yeah, that's that's I think part of the going back to the discussion of the CMO is being that sort of integrator is also become a key part of being that.

Iman 18:42

I think also what you're touching on is if you were able to have a blank slate tomorrow and someone came up to you and said, you have this one-time opportunity to redesign your marketing ecosystem, what does that set up look like? And I guess from your perspective, you're saying the big networks are gonna come in, they're gonna do the brand, the creative, those big pieces I need them to do. But the everyday moments that will enable me to power through day-to-day communications, I need speed, agility, value, and partnerships that are gonna go with me every single day.

Alasdair 19:18

Yeah. And the the funny thing is that when Nick Walsh was CEO of VML, I connected with him to, we were looking at VML uh developing a campaign for us. And I met him and I said to him, I have not had a good experience with any single global agency that I've worked with. Uh in at that point, I think that I'd been here at 10 years. So this was, I think, two years ago. And I said, we've tried everyone, I'm not gonna name them here now on the podcast, but I said we've tried everyone. It's always ended up failing at some point, whether very quickly or or eventually. I said, I'm coming to you out of necessity. I'm I'm not coming to you because I want to, but we have this really important campaign. I need I need that sort of uh level of creativity that uh you know uh a VML or is an equivalent type of agency can uh can deliver. And he understood where I was coming from, and we started talking about this ideal ecosystem. How would we design an ideal ecosystem? And you know, VML being a WPP agency, and he was like, What maybe we can maybe like what you were saying, Alistair, kind of create uh within WPP, maybe like what Mercedes was talking about, how could we create, bring in the right partners from within to have that ecosystem and have it modeled in a commercial way that could work? And and uh I think we we did the we did the work with VML. Uh Nick left VML and and you know started to migrate, right? Is that what it's called? And now with what he's doing with sort of with independent agencies, a lot of the genesis of that. I think maybe my conversation with him kind of came as he was thinking about that or looking at that. I'm not trying to take credit for for Nick's uh uh what Nick has done. But uh um I I think that's that's been sort of the missing secret sauce, if you will, if you can find this ideal ecosystem. And and I feel like we've had it at certain times. I think we have it a little bit now too.

Iman 21:31

I think this kind of um brings me to a point around the the challenges that you face having to manage so many agencies and get this balance correct.

AI In Marketing Value And Governance

Iman 21:42

So if you were to think about it hypothetically, if you were to remove one challenge from your role tomorrow, would that challenge be more a commercial pressure, an internal alignment pressure? Or would it be this magic around how you develop your e? ecosystem and get them to operate the way you need them to operate.

Alasdair 22:03

I I think it would removing a challenge. I mean obviously no everyone would love to have an open budget and be able to do everything they want whenever they want but that's that's not realistic and and yeah but but obviously budgetary pressure would make it easier. But I think the the yeah I think finding that magic formula of the right agencies and right partners and the right sort of shared values around the you know success is is maybe the the the most important thing to address. But then also now like there's clearly an opportunity with AI and everything that's happening around AI to do things better, to do things quicker, to do things cheaper, to do things that you couldn't do before. And so I think the if I was able to remove one challenge would be like accelerate the learning on that and and and figure out how to use it to its fullest potential like now before the next iteration of this technology kind of develops. So so definitely uh I think capturing AI and and leveraging it in the right way would be the sort of my answer to that.

Iman 23:23

Alistair is that something that you would say is reflected across the marketing society?

Firas 23:27

Yeah I mean I think budget pressures are are always going to be there and I think in in this country you know specifically speed is is critical. You know I think for for more of the global players there's perhaps maybe a slightly different I guess speed culture within organizations but but for UAE entities speed matters. And that's why sometimes I I think it it comes at a bit of a a um a challenge that speed in in our profession doesn't always equal quality. You know we work in a craft that takes time to build great creative and great ideas. But sometimes we want everything right you know yesterday and to deliver it. And I think sometimes that causes a challenge. But yeah I mean that the the the use of AI is is going to be absolutely critical in that as well. So I think you're looking for agencies that can provide great work at speed um and ultimately by integrating AI into different areas of the marketing mix is going to be really critical. And I thought I think we've already started to see that change there. And I think the agencies that haven't made that move yet are going to get left behind pretty quickly. And I don't just mean that as content creation or evolutions I mean really embedding AI into different practices within their organizations. And I think those that don't will will will fall quite far behind.

Iman 24:34

But uh yeah I absolutely believe that the way technology and AI can be integrated into the agency world for the benefit of clients is immense. But I also think uh there is a conversation to be had around governance. So yes there is speed agility and the ability to execute but clients also need to decide when should AI be used in the craft and when should it not be used in the craft. And I think that then gives agencies very clear parameters so that you always retain that human touch as well.

Alasdair 25:09

I mean I think the going back to the discussion of the ecosystem I think the ecosystem has to be now be part human part agency part AI and technology so that's the new layer within that ecosystem I think that's that's coming in and uh the governance thing that you're talking about I think Iman uh I mean that's the tricky part is I know everyone's saying this but it really needs to augment humanity in a way rather than replace it. It needs to accelerate humanity it it needs to complement it. So the work has to still feel human has to still feel like reading it cannot be where if you're reading something created by AI that you cannot you can tell it's it's AI. If you can you've got a problem if if that pitch you're talking about where the ladies saw three creatives that look similar and that's because they've used the same LLM or the same AI tool um that's a problem. You know if if everything becomes a lot of sameness like how our LinkedIn feeds are now becoming that um that's that's an issue. So it has to it has to be done in a way where like for instance I I'm I'm excited about the things I'm seeing it do on on on the video side on on the on the storytelling side. So the the storytelling aspect can be is is very human right and again going back to roles cm o cm o has to be a storyteller and so if ai can help you tell those stories uh and it's doing that now we've seen that doing that we've seen that in the in the training that we did with with you guys um in 75 um then that's great because it's not always easy to visualize your stories um you know when when uh with with Bia where where we had a challenge early on when we didn't have our sort of headquarters and everything was we didn't have a a a visual uh uh representation of the brand we were trying to tell people we're more than just a waste management company but all you could see are are waste management trucks and garbage trucks and and bins and stuff like that and so we had to do a lot of storytelling through video but at the same time when you're trying to show how you operate in a city or how you operate a recycling plant people love recycling but when they see a recycling plant they're like oh that's that's like ugliest and and what I'm seeing now is AI is is is helping us do what we couldn't do 10 years ago or even even to some extent you know six years ago five years ago um and and and be able to kind of be more curated storytellers in a visually attractive way.

Iman 28:07

One of our colleagues who works at a partner agency Arna works at Enigma he always says what can AI enable you to do that was never possible before and I and I love that phrase because what it does is it thinks of AI in a way that supercharges everybody's ability and it removes this conversation of commercial and cost cutting. And I think that's when AI becomes quite dangerous because everything we've spoken about today is around you know people, value, partnerships, creativity, you know different ways of working we're not talking about you know the the commercial pressures and I think sometimes conversations around AI can can sit in that that pressure to be maybe more race to the bottom whereas actually when you start to think around supercharging our abilities, it becomes a much more interesting playing field.

Firas 29:02

Uh yeah I mean I I think you know you talked about it earlier you know you have to get the governance right within organizations. We've seen the backlash I think last week around Starbucks in Korea from from not getting it right. I mean the the implications are huge. So I think organizations and businesses need to be really clear on you know the frameworks that they provide around AI from a safe brand safety point of view or a governance point of view. But ultimately it also comes down to you know the ability for CMOs to to work with the right technology to really impact business decision. And as you say not just using it from an efficiency point of view or a cost cutting point of view but does this use of technology drive top line growth and does it does it align to the business and marketing objectives that we need to create and I think what we're seeing in the UK certainly I've had two two organizations where they're actually building their teams with AI first and then bringing the the human element around it rather than the other way around you know we sort of bolted AI onto the onto the outside but actually if you were to start your business again you know you ask the question around if you created a clean slate of a team and a business what would it look like you know I think the best organizations are the one that's starting with AI at the core and building teams around it. And then it doesn't necessarily become a cross cutting it's actually you know what is the best use of a human what is the best use of an agency or the marketeer the agency and and the tech working together. And that's why it's easier sometimes for you know new organizations or startups to be able to move more nimbly and more agile because they they start with the technology at the heart of it rather than rather than bolting it on. So I I think we're moving past that as as AI seen seen as a purely a cost cutting measure. And you know I think we know we had a speaker at one of our events last month talking about the sustainable impact of not having to take teams of 30 to do shoots you know for three or four days that you can use AI to do it. It was it was a car brand and you know save massively on you know costs of of travel on a team but the environmental footprint as well. So I I think you you know we're starting to move away from seeing it as a cost cutting measure to actually seeing it across the whole ecosystem of the impact that it makes from an efficiency point of view but also hopefully from an effectiveness conversation as well. And I think that will continue to happen you know two years ago it was literally we can create content quicker and cheaper and now what I'm seeing is organizations looking at across the full spectrum of marketing about how they're embedding it to improve effectiveness and efficiency. And I think that then moves away from being purely a cost cutting cost cutting measure.

Alasdair 31:22

I I um I'll add to something to that so I um the whole idea of of um it being able enabling us to do what we couldn't do is where I think is the secret so is the magic um this idea that you know I'm tired of hearing so many people be like oh so you don't need a copywriter anymore or you don't need a uh a creative agency anymore look at what ai can do in videos uh you gotta think about it from a point of view of look how much that copywriter can do now look how much that creative agency can do now look how much all these people can do now empowered by by AI so it's it's so I think closed minded to just look at it as a as a replacement maybe one day we'll be that it's nowhere near being a replacement for talent right now it's it's it's definitely something that like sort of powers and accelerates uh talent and and you know talking about doing things that we couldn't do before again people talk about the cost thing also in a very narrow minded way it's not about doing things cheaper you can spill still spend the same money but you get so much more out of it. So I really hope people stop talking about it replacing talents like talents is not going anywhere. My daughter is going into a creative uh field with with her university studies in in a few years and and uh I'm championing that because I think that's the one area that like is going to be the last thing replaced. Yes you can replace how you deliver the story but you've got the the the the story by nature has to be human has to uh this sort of storyteller has to be human maybe the one delivering the story can be an AI but um it's that the heart of it it has

Key Takeaways And Closing Credits

Alasdair 33:19

to be human.

Iman 33:19

I think that gives us a a really nice place to wrap up today's episode. I think we've had a really rich conversation and we've covered so much from you know new ecosystems and models to you know how CMOs are really driving business strategy and then all the way through to AI and obviously that deep understanding of of talent and the future of our industry. So thank you Alistair thank you for us it's been really fantastic talking to you both. Same here thank you for that the edge of influence was brought to you by the Alliance of independent agencies Middle East and North Africa and North 75. The executive producer was myself Iman Isa and the producer was Ian Carlos and this podcast was produced by North75 and PodWorks Dubai