Virtues For Living Well with Dr. Alan Noble

What does it mean to live well in morally incoherent times? Alan Noble joins the show to discuss his new book To Live Well: Practical Wisdom for Moving Through Chaotic Times, which uses the four cardinal virtues and three theological virtues as a framework for navigating choice paralysis, the loneliness epidemic, and contemporary anxiety. The conversation covers why courage and temperance feel especially urgent today, the difficulty of writing on justice, hoping all things for political opponents, the sunk cost fallacy in vocational discernment, and why friendship requires intentional cultivation. Grace, not optimization, grounds the virtuous life. Hosted by Derek Rishmawy, Alastair Roberts, and James Wood.

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Chapter Markers

• 00:00 - Welcome and introductions
• 00:52 - The pitch for To Live Well
• 03:30 - Diagnosis: alienation or anomie?
• 06:30 - The four cardinal and three theological virtues
• 08:14 - What is a virtue?
• 10:11 - Office hours and the paradox of choice
• 14:54 - Fortitude in an anxious age
• 18:41 - The sunk cost fallacy and pivoting well
• 21:40 - The heap of broken images and Christian wholeness
• 25:07 - Hoping all things for political opponents
• 29:36 - The hardest chapter to write: justice
• 32:17 - What pastors and churches can do
• 34:40 - Grace, virtue, and the Protestant hesitation
• 38:55 - Friendship as the practice of love
• 44:31 - Closing thoughts

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

This episode is brought to you by Lexim Press, who publishes books that love the Word, love the faith, and love the church. Lexin Press was recently acquired by Baker Publishing Group, and there will be more news to follow. Our May book of the month is Classical Theism, a Christian introduction by Jordan Stefaniak. You can receive a 30% discount on this title and all previous books of the month by visiting Bakerbookhouse.com backslash pages backslash Mere Fidelity. You can find that link in our show notes and get 30% off of our book of the month from Lexum Press. Hello and welcome to another episode of Mere Fidelity, a podcast where we think about the Word of God and the world we live in. My name is Derek Rushmale, and I'll be your host for today. I'm joined by regular cast and crew members uh Alistair Roberts and James Wood. Good to see you guys. To be here. And we are joined also by a guest today, a friend of the show, a friend in real life, the Orville Alan Noble, uh professor, associate professor of English at Oklahoma Baptist University, a fellow at the Keller Center of Cultural Apologetics. I'm just reading your little bio for the book. Um Alan, friend of the show, uh you've been on before. We have hawked your books before because we love them and we love you. Uh Alan's a good friend. And you just came out with a new book, right? To Live Well. So when did you decide to start writing finance books about living well?

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Um when I wanted to start making money. Um so I I had to pivot. Yeah, I know. So to live well practical wisdom for this the this one doesn't have the O. I know. You know what? My publisher doesn't want me having the O, Alan Noble. So I I put it in all these other things, but they they just want Alan Noble.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Okay. Well, this one is this book is not about extra names. This book is about practical wisdom for moving through chaotic times. And we're really happy to have you on the show to talk about it. I will just up front say I read it in a single sitting. I loved it. It was really helpful. I'm very much for this book, by this book. Uh, but let's talk about it. Alan, why did you what what what is your what is your basic premise in the book? Give me give me the give me the the the the pitch on what your book is about.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah for the listeners. Yeah, so uh it's not a sparklingly original uh argument. It's that we live in morally incoherent times, and I think the younger generation feels this particularly and um they are getting conflicting messages from different directions from TikTok gurus to voices on YouTube telling them how to live certain ways to people on Instagram, to self-help books, to um, you know, uh teachers telling them how to live certain ways that that don't actually make a uh coherent whole. And this creates all kinds of anxiety and frustration and confusion about what it means to live a good life. And uh I wanted to offer something that was grounded and encouraging, um, a kind of mentorship, a kind of discipleship that would help people to make sense of the modern world, to make sense of their lives. And I didn't want to just offer them 10 steps to living well or um Alan Noble's uh top five life hacks. I wanted to ground it in something. So I wanted to ground it in biblical wisdom, and I wanted to ground it in these virtues which uh the churches uh uh long believed are valuable ways of of living. And with the help particularly of Joseph Pieper, uh I um advocated for these seven virtues as as valuable ways of moving through the contemporary world.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

That is the structure of the book, right? Just a just a uh what what you you engage with here is you got some intro, and then really these are meditations on meditations on the four cardinal virtues and then the three theological virtues, right? And uh and just uh essentially in uh and fleshed in the contemporary moment, and that's that's the structure of the whole. All right, yeah. Uh James, you had a you had a follow up.

SPEAKER_04 4:21

Yeah, before we jump into kind of your uh positive proposals and and and uh the wisdom you're trying to impart, can I stay on just for a second on the diagnostic, like why you wrote it also? Yeah, and yeah, one of the things one of the names that didn't pop up that I was that I had in the back of my mind as I was reading it a lot was Durkheim. And like one of the things I've talked about with my students, for instance, is you know, Marx is always popular and cool, you know, among the angsty young folks.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:49

And you know, and the the thesis of alienation, that that's the primary analysis of where why people are feeling the way they are, especially young folks. They're alienated from the means of production, the products of their labor, they're being exploited at work, class warfare. But one of the things I've tried to talk about with my students is I wonder though, if that's the the less helpful diagnostic than maybe Durkheim's, which is maybe alienation is less helpful analysis than anime, that we the normlessness, the guidelines that we're we're awash with options and we don't have standard guidelines for the the maps for meaning in our world. Would you is that is that would you say that it maps well onto the argument you're making and the diagnosis that you're making that you're trying to offer something to this moment?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. I didn't for this book, I didn't want to dwell too much on diagnosis, right? So this book is not too heavy on diagnosis because uh largely because the diagnosis is found in you are not your own. Yeah. Um the reality is that this book comes out of you are not your own. It comes out of a response to you are not your own. When I wrote you are not your own, I wrote the diagnosis and I went around the country giving talks, and people said, I need uh I need some practical application. And this book is that practical application. So um in earlier drafts, I actually called back to you are not your own, and the publisher said, please don't don't be too explicit about that. Because what it does is it says to the reader, you need to go read the other book before you can read this book, and that's not a really uh uh that's not a really helpful thing to do to readers is say, go read two books, actually. Um but the diagnosis, the full diagnosis.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

I was gonna say it seems like a good sales pitch.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

I thought it was a great idea, but my publisher was like, this notebook needs to stand on its own. So if if I gave a fuller diagnosis, it would be in You Are Not Your Own, and Durkheim is a great is a great place to look. Yeah, that that normalessness is absolutely there.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

You mentioned earlier the four cardinal virtues and the three theological virtues. Could you say a bit about why the four cardinal virtues are what they are and what the three theological virtues are, and something of the background to those categories?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah. So uh the four cardinal virtues are prudence, justice, uh courage, or fortitude, and temperance. And then the three theological virtues are faith, hope, and love that Paul talks about. And um I think these are, I think, you know, people can come up with and have come up with very different lists of virtues. Um it's my opinion that these cardinal virtues in particular, you can fold a lot of these other virtues into those four cardinal virtues. Um, that's why they are the hinge, as it were, the cardinal virtues. So, for example, honesty, I think, could be full folded into justice. Um and um, so I think these are useful ways of of thinking about virtuous living. Um so I don't know if that answers your question, but those are those are the seven virtues that I'm working with. And um I found them to be helpful. Um uh Pieper writes these two books, uh, The Cardinal Virtues and Faith, Hope, and Love, um, that are originally published as separate essays, and um, they're magnificent. And then he's pulling from Aquinas, and um, there are many others who have thought that these seven uh fit together as a nice uh group, and um I concur, I think that they work together to uh to make sense of of how to live virtuously.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Could you maybe say a bit more about what a virtue is and how it relates to maybe a more general biblical account of um the moral life?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah. So I uh think of a of a virtue as a uh a practice or a habit of um um uh living morally towards what God has created us to be. And so um uh this is where um uh the the Bible fits into our understanding of of how to live rightly, and where I would separate this from a strictly secular account of the virtues, which would be um um you know that you can just live um live temperately in a uh sort of optimal way. You can sort of optimize yourself into uh living rightly. Um instead, um uh my understanding of the virtues is that that we're actually uh living toward what we were created to be by God. Um this is this is how we are created to be by God. And so we're we're we're really we're really um uh walking in a manner worthy of the gospel by living in these virtues and living into the excellence that God created us for as new creations, as new creations, and the Holy Spirit is working through us to do these things.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

I throughout this book I just sensed it coming from a lot of places. Obviously it's coming from Yusuf Pieper, it's obviously it's coming from scripture and the contemporary world. It seems like it's coming from a lot of office hours spent talking to college students. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:24

Yeah, let can I jump in there because I was gonna say the same thing. Is um yeah, I was a former college minister and now I teach 18 to 22 year olds in the first couple chapters, especially on like choosing well, kind of your application of prudence to kind of the age of the paradox of choice. And and like I remember I'll just riff on this for a second, but is uh I remember one of the reasons I had I felt like I had to get out of college ministry just personally, was because I was like, if I have to answer the discernment question of how do I know who I'm supposed to marry or what job I should take, I'm like, I'm going to lose my mind. I'm gonna lose my mind. And uh but then I come back now, I teach college students, I'm still doomed.

SPEAKER_03 11:00

Guess what I preached on two days ago, James?

SPEAKER_04 11:02

Yes, vocational discernment. And uh but I was as I was reading that chapter, which I thought was really helpful, and I have thoughts about it. Like one of the a couple points that I loved, and then I'll you know, come is I loved, you know, just the you recognize the angst that people are feeling about choosing. Like we got all these choices, it's like the Gary Schwartz paradox of choice dilemma, right? Like, but then like I think you give really conquerors, like what do you what do you do? And so maybe you can riff on we your strategies of of making those choices. But also I loved that, you know, like look, we've got a lot of options, and that's a good thing, and you kind of give guidance for how to do that. But I also love that you kind of you didn't use the term, but the BS jobs, you know, like there are jobs that might not be worth your attention. The you know, maybe you shouldn't consider these things. But yeah, so make to go back to Alice or Derek's point of is this coming out of you know, helping 18 to 22-year-old kids a lot in uh in a large way? And and what what is the guidance you give them for making those types of decisions?

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah, it it absolutely is. You know, so when I when I wrote this book, um I as I said, part of it is coming out of having conversations and Q ⁇ A's with people when I when I gave talks about you are not your own. But the other part of it is a lot of office hours with students who were wrestling with real questions about how to live well. And uh they're asking questions about what is what is social justice? What does justice look like? They're asking questions about what is love, right? You know, how do I discern what love really means? They're asking questions about how do I discern uh who to marry? Do I follow my fiance to grad school or do I stay close to my family? Do I pursue this career or that career? And there's this existential angst that they're carrying. And so I tried to write this book pastorally, even though I'm not a pastor. Um I tried to write it pastorally. Um ruling elder. That's true. Well, when I wrote it, I wasn't, um, but I am now. That's true. It does, it absolutely comes out of that. Um I I had to choose examples to make these these virtues tangible. And I spoke to what I knew best, and that was the uh the struggles that a lot of young people are going through in uh what I assume to be uh very common struggles, and um I hope that that it will resonate with a lot of people and and and help them. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Aaron Ross Powell I will say this is this is true of 18-year-olds. It's also true of 38-year-olds, 39-year-olds. Um I I do feel like there's a there's a chunk of folks in our generalized age cohort, leaving aside Alistair Roberts, who's elderly. Um but but you you you you you get past the first wave of choices in your life, uh marriage, career, et cetera, et cetera. And then and then there's like this second wave that comes after the children or within the children. And and and when you hit about 40 and you really start to ask yourself questions about like, okay, but uh what does the back half look like? Am I am I am I still doing this? Is it something else or whatever? And so you the the the the choice paradoxes they're still there. Uh and everything about the contemporary moment you know, you're maybe you're making them for your children, maybe you're making them for your spouse, but you're still you're still stuck with some of these same loops. And so I I just found it um very reassuring uh just uh in in in in my own uh age stage, not not just the fact that I'm gonna I'm gonna absolutely use this as a as a book club book for my students next quarter. Um I the the chapter that was also really encouraging to me, and I wanted to hear you talk more about and I I think that there's I think maybe people are feeling this one in an anxious age um fortitude. Fortitude and courage and suffering. Um I I know you've I know you've walked through some things. And so I was just wondering if I just wanted to hear you m talk more about uh the the the chapter on fortitude and and how that is, in a sense, maybe particularly needed in the in the mo in the contemporary moment.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Um yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. I mean I think uh as I as I thought about the the cardinal virtues and the ones that that are most pressing for our moment, I think courage or fortitude and then temperance are the ones that I mean I I think prudence is is really important for that choice paralysis that that is so crippling to so many young people. But um I increasingly think that that there are two marks of our our our culture. One is inhibition, our just this this sense that we don't have agency in our lives. You know, you get a diagnosis and you feel like uh I don't have agency over that. You get um you feel like you're controlled over mass forces, um, you know, I don't have choice, but I have to use AI, whatever it is. But you just you have this sense that I don't have agency. I can't, you know, I can't ask someone out on a date, right? I can't do these things. Um so inhibition, and then the other thing that that um relate relates to temperance is uh an addiction nation, right, between pornography, so sports gambling, um um, and other addictions. Um and so uh with courage or fortitude, um yeah, I think inhibition is a big problem, and I think courage is how we need to approach this. And uh I've written about this before, uh written about this recently for the Gospel Coalition. I think that that that there's a a call, and I think that particularly young people want to hear this. They want someone to invite them to be courageous, but somebody has to invite them. Um if if nobody's going to invite them to lean into courage and tell them how to be courageous and what courage even looks like, then they're not going to do it. Um but and so the the book tries to uh invite them into that and tell them what that is. And unfortunately, courage means the risk of suffering and in many cases enduring suffering for the sake of the good. And that you know, that is something that I have and everyone has lived out at some point or another and will continue to live out at some point or another, because life is involves a great deal of suffering. And the question, the real, the only real question is how will you face that suffering? Will you face it courageously or not? And so the invitation is to face it courageously, to endure, which is the better part of courage.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

I think about this a lot with some of my students. Um the the paralysis around a lot of choices comes from this fear of of what they will endure on the other side or or the amount of I mean, there's there's so many jokes and reels about about Gen Z bailing on stuff uh as soon as as soon as somebody corrects them or something like that. And and some of that's fair, some of it's not. But but I can see that there in in my own heart, in my own life, and and and and around the uh the almost American tendency to think that if something's going wrong, I must be doing wrong, and I've got to switch tracks quickly to get out of the track that has me suffering. If I'm suffering, something something about this situation needs to change immediately. This can't just be the thing I'm called to for a while. Um I like I need to get to get the other job.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

Like you mentioned, Derek, like the even us 38-year-olds, which I'm not 38 anymore, but maybe I guess you are, is but people who 39. 39 Yeah, you're holding on to youth, you know, uh you're trying, you're claiming in a former year. Um but uh but I really appreciate it. You as a former peop maybe a lot of people don't know this about me. My major in undergrad was finance, and I hated it. But there were only a few themes that I kept with me. And I you brought up one of them, which is my favorite, the sunk cost fallacy. Um, which I think is that you helpfully like for people who are making career choices, or maybe they're in a career and they feel like I'm actually not using the best of my gifts, I'm not serving the best. This doesn't affect. So that's maybe not a suffering, but it's maybe not full service. But one of the things I think some people one of the reasons why I think also so many of our choices are scary is because we feel like if we pivot later, either that is a failure of commitment or it's unwise because I've already invested so much in a prior decision I've made. Can you discuss that? Like, why did you bring that theme in?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, my wife has a master's degree in economics. So that vocabulary was um, you know, one flesh. So I got it, kind of got a little bit of that um uh degree borrowed. And um, so that's where I get that from. And um, I'm very grateful for it because that concept is really helpful. And when I was writing this this section on prudence, because that's where that that sunk cost fallacy came in. I was writing this section on prudence and I was writing the section on making resolute decisions. And I was thinking about, you know, you know, you're making these resolute decisions and you're following through. And this taps into this idea of courage. The all the virtues work together. You know, you make a resolute decision and you follow through with it courageously. But the problem is, is that in real life, sometimes you you you don't, like you said, you need to pivot. Uh, you follow through with a career, you make a career choice, and then you realize actually, I need to pivot. Um, this is a toxic work environment. Or I actually thought I had a skill in this, and it's really just not working out for me. And that's prudence too, because you're surveying reality, you're focusing on the good, you're making, you know, you're bringing in wise counsel, and you're realizing a new prudent decision is moving off of this career and moving to something else. And so I I realized I I need to I need to talk about the sunk cost fallacy, reassessing and and moving on. And so um what I didn't want was someone thinking, man, the virtuous thing here is to grit my teeth in a in a career that is that is you know not fit for me and and persevere. Um and so that's why I included that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

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SPEAKER_01 22:37

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SPEAKER_00 24:24

At the beginning of the book, you bring up um T. S. Elliott's The Wasteland, and you mentioned this image of the heap of broken images. And that is a very helpful starting point for reflecting upon people how how people approach the moral life, how they approach decisions, how they understand their navigation of the world. They don't understand it. They have bits and pieces here and there, they have various voices that aren't really integrated well. That seems in many respects to be a characteristic of our very online age, um just by the very nature of the media. But what is there in a Christian vision to offer the sort of coherence and integrity and the ability to move beyond those broken, fragmented images to something that has wholeness and a sort of unity to it? How do we find um a sort of unified life out of all these different decisions and virtues? How do they come together? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Um, so there are a couple of things I would say. One of them is uh uh what I just mentioned a couple of minutes ago, which is that the virtues all work together. And so as you as you choose to uh lean into your new creation in Christ and act on these virtues, you're gonna realize that these virtues work together. And there is a unity that you're not just you're not just picking up uh justice over here in abstract, that you're actually learning how to love people better, that you're actually learning how to act courageously, that you're actually learning how to think prudently. So there's a unity there. The other thing I would say is that this doesn't happen in uh in abstract. It doesn't happen um in alienation from community, or at least not not properly. The virtues happen in community. And so there's a unity there because you're you're you know, you're loving in community, you're acting justly in community. And so part of the vision of the Christian life is uh a vision in community, and that community is the body of Christ. All right, that's the community, is the body of Christ. Um, the other thing I would say is that um on this side of paradise, we're never going to have this perfect uh, you know, the the image I have that I imagine that that Elliot had is the stained glass window. I don't know if that's what he envisioned uh when he envisioned the heap of broken images, but that's what I imagine he had. We're not gonna have this perfect holistic, you know, uh image, you know. We're always piecing things together. It's always it's always going to be a little bit fragmentary because uh we're fallen and there's always gonna be a struggle to piece things together. We're always gonna have something a little bit off, and that's okay because there's grace for that. But but our task is to um understand what the gospel is, to understand what God is calling us to, and to move toward that that created uh order that God has called us to. And um, that's where I think as we're moving toward um that created order, we find that wholeness.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

I've got a question about um you when we were talking about the cardinal virtues, I think you said, and again, they all work together, so you can't like you know sift them out and separate them. And um and uh but I think you said um courage or fortitude was maybe the the premier cardinal virtue we need to focus to retrieve today. I wonder on the theological virtue, the chapter that I thought resonated most with me and some of the problems of our moment was the chapter on hope. Um, and particularly your your analysis, your exposition of the theme hope all things, and how that maps on to particularly our political and ideological battles. And how the the put thing I put in my margins was I think a lot of us are Jonas more than we want to admit about our prophetic speech to our political opponents. Um, because one of the things you said is we actually don't want to hope all things for our political opponents. We want them to remain as bad as they are or as bad as they are in our mind, because if they change, we wouldn't know what to do with that, and then we wouldn't have a sort of kind of against the enemy identity or something. And uh, and we also you meant you gave a concrete example too. We often um don't like to celebrate when our political opponents break rank in ways that are more in line with our views. Um, and again, that you you mentioned that's a failure of hoping all things again. Uh, can you elaborate more on this? Why do you know what do you mean by this? And what's our what's the antidote here? Uh do you see this as a major problem in our political discourse?

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Yeah, I I think it's a major problem in our political discourse. I think it's a major problem in our inner personal lives too. I mean, I think it's I think it's it's it's span, I think it's a heart problem, a posture of our hearts that we just have this tendency to not want to hope all things and and really desire for uh people that we imagine to be our opponents or imagine to be people on the other side, whatever that might be, uh people that we have cast as the other, to um to make the right decision, to turn from sin to even if it's in small ways, to turn to Christ. We just we just have this desire in our hearts to not actually see that. And that is a failure to hope all things. And that is uh, I think uh uh uh despair. And um it's it's I think sin. Um we should rejoice when when um when our political opponents actually uh choose to to side with us to when when our you know to to make the moral decision and do the right thing. We should rejoice because that's a good thing. But but because of our polarized politics, uh instead what we end up doing is saying there's uh at least a part of our hearts that says, gosh, now I have to I don't want to give them an attaboy because you know that would encourage them. I don't I don't want to give them an attaboy, right? I I just I don't want to admit that they did the right thing. And um that's pride. That's that's that's failing to hope all things. Like and um that's a shame. And that and that and that in incentivizes that incentivizes the polarization, right? That incentivizes the polarization that that's just making things worse. So um that was my my intention there. And as I said, I do think this happens on uh interpersonal levels as uh as as well. I think in personal relationships, we we can find ourselves in situations where we we don't actually desire someone to turn from their sin and repent. We actually desire them to um commit more sin and to wrong us more because we've decided we've written them off. And that's a terrible place to be. So we need to guard our hearts for that and and and choose to desire to to to hope all things, to desire that they turn to Christ.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

It's easy. Why I like that is because it's easy for me to conceptualize that antagonistic posture um uh as a failure of love, which I think it is, but I think you're also h getting at something really true, a failure of hope, and I think that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

Yeah. Thank you. Can I ask you a really dumb book? Not dumb the super book interview question. I I'm sorry. Yeah, I want a dumb question. Let's get it. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm here for. Um What was the hardest what was the hardest chapter to write in really? Think about living out, think about not not just at the conceptual defining level, but but okay, just getting into the mind space of of of kind of thinking this virtue through.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

That's easy. Uh justice was the hardest chapter. Justice was the hardest chapter to write. Why? Um Justice is such a um complex topic. Um it has so many ramifications. And I I don't know why I'm saying that, because love has is such a complex topic and has so many ramifications. But I just think that um thinking about our culture and how sensitive justice is and um the realities of the implications of of writing about justice, um, there was a lot of trepidation about writing about justice. So that's the chapter I'm I'm least satisfied with. Um and I had the hardest, hard, excuse me, hardest time writing.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah. Okay. Sorry, that was I just had I had to know. When you're thinking about virtues, you're like, um, yeah. So you can't learn in that chapter.

SPEAKER_04 33:49

The one in that chapter though is how what I love, the my favorite part of that chapter was we for a world to function, to actually have a society, we have to treat each other beyond formal justice. Uh uh I love that point. I thought that was really, really helpful because I think, especially as we we get in and as we lose social bonds in our society, we have lack of moral consensus and we just have lack of connection, we get increasingly into a litigious technical approach to society. And I think you're right on that that's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

I'm taking that from Peeper and and elaborating on it, but yes, yeah, that's that's I think that idea that to to have to think that we can just have this legalistic uh technocratic um you know uh justice and and and and live humanly is profoundly wrong. Um we need to be prodigal in our justice, we need to go beyond that and so um to make this world a human place.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

If you were going to speak to let's say a pastor reads your book and is deeply persuaded by it and convicted by it, and feels that they need to inculcate these virtues within their congregants, what are some of the things that you think that churches could be doing that they maybe are not doing or not doing enough to actually move people in these sorts of directions and overcome some of the fragmented um moral lives that people live?

SPEAKER_02 35:23

That's a great question. So one of the things I think is that's really helpful, is helpful is that the Bible is filled with language of of virtue, right? The Bible talks about justice a lot, right? The the the Bible talks about prudence. Uh the Bible is not absent, it's it talks about self-control. There's it's not absent this language of virtue. So I think leaning into this language um is is helpful so that it's part of our shared vocabulary that we're not afraid. Um I think that that particularly for Protestants, there has been this fear of talking about living virtuously um because we're afraid of sounding like it's works righteousness. And I understand that. I understand that. And I'm um but there's a way of of preaching, of preaching about um living righteously that foregrounds the gospel and the importance of Christ's work of redemption and his righteousness and our role as our our our response as new creation, um, as as new creatures that that properly frames that, that I think allows space for us to to to live into who we are. And so um I think that's important. The other thing I would say is, you know, it doesn't have to be from the pulpit, but maybe Sunday school classes. Let's talk about things like temperance. Let's talk about how are we using social media? How, you know, should our should our kids be having smartphones? Like uh let's have these conversations because uh if we're not having them in those spaces, then I think we're doing a disservice to our to our churches. But um just having that shared vocabulary and having those conversations, I think is uh I think is important.

SPEAKER_00 37:17

Another thing I was wondering is you when you're talking about virtue, you more generically, um will often find yourself drawing upon classical sources, various um Greek and Roman philosophers. There's a a sense of this as deep within the Western tradition. This is part of our shared vocabulary. But when we're treating that tradition as Christians, we have this whole vocabulary and theology of grace. How does that relate to our understanding of virtue? Is there a way that we need to create space for a discourse of virtue within our theology of grace? Or is there a way in which our theology of grace really propels a theology of virtue in ways that it is not within a non-Christian framework?

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Yeah, so if I think I think if I'm understanding you correctly, this is how I would frame this is that because of the grace that we receive from Christ, we are propelled to act uh virtuously, right? Um whereas uh under the under a uh a pagan understanding or or even uh under certain uh you know stoic understandings that you might see today, you know, the the idea of pursuing virtues might be just to uh to optimize your life, right? To to to to live to live well in a in a in a in the imminent frame, right? Um as it were. And so um the difference I that I see is that there is a telos, which is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. And and that telos is is is framed under the umbrella of grace. So because of what Christ has done for us, out of gratitude, we are compelled and excited as new creations to act righteously, to turn. We are free to turn from sin and to be uh to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. And that's the exciting thing. That's what I tried to get across in this is that it's an exciting thing to be able to act virtuously as new creations, right? And um because of grace, right? Because of grace. And you're and and how I end the book is is grace, the fact, the reality that you are going to fall short of these virtues, you are going to make mistakes, and there is grace for that. Um and that is an important message that I want to get across. You're you're you're not gonna get this perfectly, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:53

Yeah. This is really important. I remember uh early on in my preaching, um, it was, you know, hey, uh Christ has paid, you can't earn your salvation, you you can't the the the works righteousness, we're gonna we're gonna beat that, we're gonna beat that to a pulp. And it was really a um, you know, a really Christocentric gospel, which is good. Like he's done everything, he's done all. But but I remember I can't remember what book or what what event, whatever it is, but when the penny drop for me on the way union with Christ and the double gift works. In fact, he he you know, he breaks the he breaks the power of canceled sin and sets the sets the captives free. Like he cancels sin. He actually pays for it, but he also starts to break the power of sin in our lives through the regeneration and through the power of the Holy Spirit and and kind of preaching a two-handed uh son and spirit gospel there of of of the Son's work and then what what the Son gives you in the Spirit, when the Spirit starts to work in your life, he starts to actually he actually starts to create the virtues within you, right? They start growing within us and or organically. Um organically, James, I threw that one in there for you. The Bob Ink reference there. But um But you also threw a Keller reference in there.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

The penny drop, which nobody knows what those meaning because nobody uses pennies. Pennies are obsolete, guys.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Um we do, we do, James.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

You use pennies? No, you just no. Um can I can I ask you to make a difference? No, we use the references. Uh or did you have a question here, Derek? But I want to ask about another virtue.

SPEAKER_03 41:32

Oh I I I actually actually had I had one that I was gonna ask you about. I I was wondering why when it came when it came to love, um I loved that on love you you got to the virtue uh and the practice of friendship. Um and you know, we're talking about marriage and chastity and some of the other ones, but but friendship as this as this essential practice of learning the virtue of love. I wanted to hear just more from you on that because that I think is again for my for myself and for my students, the the capacity and the wisdom of being able to carry on and cultivate friendships is just so difficult and so timely and so essential. So, uh Alan, I'd love to hear you more about that.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah, so I think as I the older I get, the more I value friendships. I mean, I've always I've always loved my friends, but the older I get, the more I realize that I just I depend on my friends. I need my friends to survive. I've gone through some very difficult periods in my life where I've had to call up friends to just get through to sit with me to get through some very difficult moments. And um I've also realized that it's harder and harder to make friends. Um and that makes me appreciate friendship even more because uh it's it's special. And um it's also made me realize how intentional you have to be to cultivate friendships and to uh carry friendships along. And so a message that I, speaking of office hours, that I like to preach to my students is that you need to care for your friendships, like you need to shepherd your friendships because they're not just going to happen. You might be happening, they might just happen now because you're in this special college bubble, but in the future, you're gonna have to nurture them. You're going to have to be intentional about them because they're not just gonna fall into your lap. You're not just gonna meet somebody in the cafeteria. And um, your friendships or lack of friendships um are going to determine how well you manage your way through life. We're in a loneliness epidemic, and it's not a coincidence. Um, a lot of people don't have close friends. And so uh this comes from a very personal place. Um, I just think that that friendships are incredibly important, and I wanted to Talk about it under the under the virtue of of of love.

SPEAKER_04 44:04

Yeah, so I'll I'll just have to say a couple uh a c a couple things there that I wanted to pick your brain on is um I think that's totally right. I think all you know, and I love that you talked about friendships here, that it isn't I think one of the common assumptions about friendships is that is that they're predicated on s similarity and you really pressed that point. Like, look, you some of your best friends are are really dissimilar to you and challenge you, and that's a good thing. And I think that that's one of the myths of the the the day. But also we we talk a lot about like the you you bring bring up the loneliness epidemic, but as related to friendship. We bring we talk a lot about like the dating problem, the you know, the a lot of young folks are really nervous and we need to give them some practical guidance to just like date again, like to talk to each other and to embrace rejection, like hey, it's not the end of the world. Like I also think that applies to friendship too. I think we probably need to give a lot more concrete about that. I think friendship is not coming naturally to people. And I think we probably need, I I think your book is a gesture towards this. Do you have any more suggestions about kind of practical advice about actually how to live virtuously by by taking steps towards friendship? Do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to the virtue of courage. I mean, I think um I've been I've been writing and thinking about this a lot. Um, a lot of the same steps that apply to dating apply to friendship. Um, if you see someone who you think you would might be a possible friend, you need to recognize the good of friendship and take the risk of suffering and move towards that person, invite them out to coffee. Um embodied presence and and uh and move towards them. Um take the risk. You might get rejected, you might they might say they're too busy or whatever, um, and that'll hurt and you'll move on with your life. But um, but that's what it takes. Because you're exactly right. There is this this failure of of knowing how to practically do this making of friends that um is inhibiting people and keeping them in their shell, and um instead they're turning to companion bots and and things, and and that's a shame.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

Um, Alan, uh you are the podcast group is uh Derek's I really have been an inspiration of he's just practiced affirmation uh to a lot of us. And I think that's even like a courageous thing to do. It's vulnerable to be like, hey, you're a new friend, and I see these good things in you, and I want to encourage you in that. So I'm actually trying to follow Derek's example here and say I I'm I I'm in my I'm inspired by him. But I think stuff like that, just practical, courageous, like you said, stuff, I think comes really hard to young folks and us even our middle age. And uh and so thank you for your your your push to us.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah. Derek is a good friend.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

I was gonna try and say something silly, but you guys got me feeling nice and friendly. That's your new feel. Yeah. Hey, um Alan, Alan, you are my friend and uh you're a friend of the show, and I'm really glad that you wrote this book. It's gonna help a lot of people. I hope so. Uh if they if they open it up and read it, that's the hook, guys, is you have to buy the book and then read it, not just listen to the podcast about it. Um But Alan, thanks for coming and joining us today and sharing this conversation. It was a it was an encouragement, a blessing. Um glad to see you. Uh for those of you who have listened thus far, if you have found this uh episode to be an encouragement, obviously go buy the book. But then also maybe rate and review us uh the episode on iTunes, share the show, get the word out. Uh but for now, this has been another episode of Mere Fidelity.