The Christian Life with Kelly Kapic

Kelly Kapic's The Christian Life — the newest volume in the New Studies in Dogmatics series — frames Christian living as a response to divine love, arguing that human agency is always Christological and ecclesial before it is personal. With Derek Rishmawy, Alastair Roberts, and James Wood.

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00:48
A Summit Work

04:01
False Dichotomies in Evangelical Thought

08:19
Anthropology and Life

11:33
A Little Summa

12:32
What's New About the Christian Life?

14:35
Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation

15:42
The Response to the Love of God

19:20
Christ's Vicarious Love and Agency

24:44
Understanding the Law and Gospel Distinction

29:58
Capital 'S' Sin

37:11
Obedience to the law

41:38
The Role of Liturgy in Corporate Worship

49:42
Living Out the Christian Life in Community

Transcript

Derek Rishmawy 0:00

This episode is brought to you by Lexhum Press, who publishes books that love the word, love the faith, and love the church. Lexhum. Press was recently acquired by Baker Publishing Group, and there will be more news to follow. Our May book of the month is Classical Theism, a Christian introduction by Jordan Stefaniak. You can receive a 30% discount on this title and all previous books of the month by visiting Bakerbookhouse.com, backslash pages, backslash mere fidelity. You can find that link in our show notes and get 30% off of our book of the month from Lexhum Press. Hello and welcome to another episode of Mere Fidelity, a podcast by Mere Orthodoxy, where we think about the Word of God and the world we live in. My name is Derek Rishmawy, and I'll be your host for today. I am joined by regular casts and crew members, Alastair Roberts and James Woods. Good to see you, fellas.

James Wood 0:46

Great to be here.

Derek Rishmawy 0:47

Very good to be

A Summit Work

Derek Rishmawy 0:48

here. We also have a special guest. We have Kelly Kapik from Covenant College, a friend of mine, a friend of the show, and the recent author of, well, he's the author of many books, but the book we want to talk to him about today is the most recent volume in the New Studies and Dogmatics, The Christian Life. And we got through that, and it's a fantastic book, Kelly. I just was going to say I read it cover to cover. It was, there was just so much in it. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today. This feels like a book that was the culmination of a lot of things. Am I wrong here? How long does how long does this take you to write?

Kelly Kapic 1:34

Well, thanks for having me, you guys. I appreciate you taking some time to talk. Yeah, it's ridiculous. This is, you know, I think I signed a contract in 2014. And and it wasn't that I was writing that whole time, but I genuinely was wrestling and thinking through it and would gather with friends. And it took me a very, very long time to learn how to say some things very simply and to get comfortable with that.

Derek Rishmawy 2:01

I I think that I think that captures something that the saying something simply, um, you know, Grace Utanto on the blurb said something that, you know, sounds off at first, but he but he talked about it as the most digestible volume or something like that to that effect in this series. And in some ways, that was true in terms of I think the the writing style at at places, but in other ways it was it it's deceptive because of how dense the theological depth behind the language. There's there's some sections that were very like, hey, almost let's rip some of this over into a sermon. But a lot of it, you know, there's a lot of like careful, dense dogmatics behind it uh that that were that was very clear at the same time. So really, really pleasant to read.

James Wood 2:51

I've tweeted about it a couple of times. And I'll just say a couple things before I make my comment riffing on Dick Dayers. I wish this book was out earlier because I taught a class, I just finished up a class on spiritual formation. And I absolutely would have assigned this book because uh it deals a lot of topics that I wanted to deal with that I did deal with uh by hot, you know, grab bagging a bunch of different things. Um and it definitely is very sympathetical with a lot of my views on things, but that uh I would echo Derek's point about the depth. You you are a very clear writer, um um but it and this is not a very long book. I think it's just a little over 200 pages. But I remember I tweeted out a couple of 300, I think. Oh, 300.

Kelly Kapic 3:30

Yeah, it's not basically you think it's 200. Let's tell the audience it's only two.

James Wood 3:36

I had somebody on Twitter respond back to me who also also reading at the same time, and they said they are intentionally trying to read it slowly to digest everything. And I think I think that is the feel that I got. There's a feast quality to this book. Um and so I'm not surprised. I'm I'm encouraged that it took you that long to write it, because uh if I would have written a book quickly, it would not be of this caliber. And so uh congratulations

False Dichotomies in Evangelical Thought

James Wood 4:01

on it. But I did want to ask um a question about the kind of and the opening material, maybe your some of your reflections is um you you even said, and I think there's a line, I I'm not seeking novelty, but I think you even said depth. I'm I'm wanting to to to go deep. And but then what follows right after that um you set up a set of false dichotomies that you're trying to avoid. And I think that is very much reflected throughout the rest of the book. Which of those dichotomies do you think, for kind of maybe an evangelical audience, do you think is the most important at this time? Like uh was something that you uniquely think, like, man, I really hope this is caught by my audience to avoid these ditches. Any any thoughts about that?

Kelly Kapic 4:45

Yeah, it's a great question. And the way I I thought I had an answer, but the way you framed it, I don't know if I do, because in some ways, a broad evangelical audience is some of the audience I'm trying to help on almost all of them, you know, the objective versus the subjective, where evangelicals sometimes are just so grounded in the subjective, or maybe that's a wrong way to say it, because the subjective isn't often grounded. Very good in the subjective, but weaker in the objective. Uh so that's one to think through. But also, as you know, like I have one on Catholic in particular. Evangelicals tend to be pretty good about being particular, but not very good about being Catholic, um, Trinitarian or Christ-centered. So I don't know, was there one that you thought I wish evangelicals were stronger in this particular one? Um but yeah, they were just me in some ways, it's I've been teaching at Covenant College for 25 years. And so those five, you know, for the listeners, it's objective and subjective, Catholic, particular, transcendence and immanence, trinitarian and Christ-centered representation and imitation, those are all just things that I've seen students coming from different backgrounds thinking they have to pick, right? Like representation and imitation, like Christ represents us. That's absolutely true. And I've heard some in the Reformed people say, like, hey, Christ is unique. We we don't try and imitate Christ, the imitatio Christi doesn't apply to us. And then we've seen other extremes where it's the imitatio Christi and it's almost like Jesus, just an example. But the extremes are not an excuse to learn the truth of both of those sides.

James Wood 6:19

Yeah, I would say if I had to pick, you know, um, those those two would be very similar to me, the representative and imitation, representation, imitation, and the objective and subjective. I see those so closely linked. And it I think that's very important, especially in your discussion of law and grace, you know, law and gospel. I thought that was conveyed, those were conveyed really well there of just like the gift that we are freed from sin in a server. I've got a later question about how you can convey sin, which I think is quite fascinating. But um, that's one of the things I try to convey to my students because I I don't think they're often getting it. Uh I often will bring up the question, like, do you think it's a good thing? Do you think it's good news that in some important respect you are freed from sin? You're free, you know, like uh that that's a that's a pretty amazing news, uh set of news. And but I and it's connected to the imitatio that you know I think reformed, like you're right, and that's why I I I bring up this spiritual formation class I just taught, is like the reformed tend to be very cautious about that that framing because because yes, if if your understanding of the work of Christ is only work of Christ is only imitation, of course that's wrong.

Kelly Kapic 7:27

Right.

James Wood 7:27

But if it's less than imitation, it's also wrong.

Kelly Kapic 7:29

You're definitely wrong. Yeah, you're not reading the same Bible. And it is even even when you talk about freedom, and maybe we'll get back to this as a law gospel, but it, you know, I remember, you know, I I grew up Catholic and then wasn't really anything, and then got converted. I won't tell you my whole story, but converted, and basically what I would now say is what's a fundamentalist leaning Baptist setting. I didn't know it at the time. But anyways, it ends up becoming reformed. I'm at Wheaton, married, go to go to seminary, get there, and it's freedom in Christ. And what that meant was you got to smoke cigars and drink whiskey, right? And I'm not a I it's fine. If you want to smoke cigars and drink whiskey, that I'll I'll do it with you. But that's not freedom in Christ. Freedom in Christ is the freedom to actually be free from your sin and to love the other. And the fact that that just gets so lost is really hurtful in our lives and very narrow.

Anthropology and Life

Derek Rishmawy 8:19

The the question of life, you know, James just jumped right in there, which I love. Um, I wanted to actually just broaden back out, though, to a minute to the scope of what your project is, because if you hand me a book on dogmatics, if you hand me a systematic theology, and then I go look for the chapter called Christian life, I don't often find it. Yeah. Like as a as a locus of reflection. And so I saw that and I'm like, well, Kelly's written a lot about parts of life that I've appreciated is anthropology. So is this an anthropology? And I didn't actually know what I was getting into when I got the volume. So let me let me just ask you to to to give us give give a listener like a brief thesis or just outline your thesis of like what is the scope of what you're talking about when you're talking about like a dogmatic account. Because that's this is a dogmatic account of the Christian life. And then and then I want to pull on a thread after that. I'd just love to hear on every minute from that. Thank you. Yeah, we James and I just took off going 50.

Kelly Kapic 9:26

So I love it. I love it. So yeah, I it so the thesis of the book, which in a sense every listener would just go, yeah, but the thesis which took me a long time to figure out was um Christian life is a response to the love of God. That's what it is. It's a response to the love of God. Um and so the first half of the book is after introductory material is divine agency, God to us, father, son, and spirit, love, grace, right, um, and fellowship. And we can talk about those things. And then the middle of the book has this center on law and gospel. How do we think about those? But the second half of the book is human agency, a response to divine agency. And part of what was so honestly just beautiful for me through the years to really put my teeth into was human agency is a response to the love of God, but that still needs to be centered in Christ. And so the the dogmatic argument is that a theology, because this isn't just a practice, there are books on Christian life that are like, do this, do this, do this. Here are the practices. Practices are really common right now. I'm not against practices, but without a theology, there we're in trouble. So my dogmatic statement, then we can talk about it, is the theology of Christian life is framed in terms of divine and human agency. And then here's what took forever. Not only did the triune God first love us, divine agency, but the incarnate son also first loved God for us. And for me to be able to say, oh, the human response, we just immediately talk about Kelly or me or the ego. And it took me forever to go, no, no, no, the human agent is Messiah, and then, and I got really convinced of this, soaking in the biblical and theological tradition, it's Messiah, and then it's his church, and only after that corporate reality is it the ego, the personal. And so, how do we keep it Christological, ecclesial, and personal? And that was what was really fun to unpack.

A Little Summa

Derek Rishmawy 11:33

That I'm gonna let Alice jump in in a minute, but this was one of the things that um part of what was so fun about this was it ended up being a little suma of almost the whole of Christian theology, like absent maybe a little bit of eschatology, and I might might not have figured out if you're a millennial or something. But but beyond that, yeah, because you're trying to explain the whole of the Christian life as a response to the life of the triune God, you know, in Christ, the problem of sin, you've got Christology, you've got ecclesiology, all the soteriology, all that ends up what was that? Liturgics, yeah, just just for fun. Um so so that was what was it's almost like uh it's it's a mini systematic theology with the Christian life in focus for the whole. And so that's part of what felt so I know, I guess, comprehensive about the whole. There's a bunch of threads we're I want to pull on in those sub subdoctrines, but Alistair, I think you wanted to pull on something.

What's New About the Christian Life?

Alastair Roberts 12:32

I suspect this episode will be released at some point between Ascension Day and Pentecost. And the Christian life is something that responds to certain events in history. Um what is new about the Christian life and what preceded it? What's the sort of background from which its novelty can be seen?

Kelly Kapic 12:57

Oh, so that's what you're asking in terms of you know, before the coming of Messiah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I think that's the key, actually, is Messiah, right? And that what's amazing though is how often we don't do that. I do think our theology and preaching should be, you know, uh there is a cross-centeredness to it, but I've seen, being in evangelical circles now for three decades, that a Christ or a cross focus can actually unintentionally probably, but undermine the fullness of the incarnation, resurrection, ascension, ongoing session of Christ. So the cross was always made to point to all of it. It's a sum, it's a summative, it's not, it's not an exclusive kind of thing. And so for me, I and I love your your actual question is yeah, if j if if you can still say this without the coming of Messiah, then we've missed it still. Does that make any is that fair?

Alastair Roberts 13:50

Yes, very much so. And I mean, I've been thinking just reading through things like the Gospel of Luke, I've been teaching it recently, and just how much there are elements that emerge within the teaching of Christ, and then later on, of course, in the epistles of Paul and elsewhere, that you don't really encounter in the same way in the Old Testament. There's something new about the Christian life and exciting that is made possible by the work of Christ and the gift of the Spirit. And of course, there are people like David who talks about the law of God written in his heart, how much he loves the law of God, and there's very clearly fellowship between God and man, but there's something very different after Pentecost.

Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation

Kelly Kapic 14:35

Alistair, can I pick up on that? Because I really like I like how you're like in a simple way, like trying to get us to get to this. One of the things that that occurred to me as I was working on this is so part of my other work with the Templeton Foundation, I do a lot with psychologists, and as people often will know now, it's very important, at least psychologically, to make a distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation. Because you don't need the offending party to turn to you to forgive them. Otherwise, you're held hostage. And one of the beauties of forgiveness is you can forgive someone who's still a jerk, right? But what is amazing about the gospel, especially with the Christ-centeredness, is that God in Christ by his spirit not only forgives us, but in Christ, he actually is leading the reconciliation. He is the human agent coming back and saying, No, I'm making this right. And and there's it's it's just so much, it adds so much thickness to the idea of just forgiveness of sins. It really is reconciliation. This is radical. It's it's not less than forgiveness, but it is definitely more.

The Response to the Love of God

James Wood 15:42

One of the things that um I appreciated so much related to that in the book was um like one of the dichotomies that might look weird on the surface that you're trying to avoid, but I think is related to this, is the Trinitarian and Christological. And you kind of mentioned how some evangelical theology can be some comes so in a in a weird way cross-centered that it can be off by by not uh integrating other elements. And I think the Trinitarian and Christological is relevant here when it comes to your core theme, which is love. It's a response to the love of God. And I just one of my favorite parts was how you related that to the work of Christ. Um how do you think, but I don't want to give away, yeah, I'm gonna let you riff on this. Um, how do you think we often can get the love of God in Christ wrong? Uh and how does a Trinitarian the Trinitarian framework actually that you're trying to offer here, combining the Christocentric and the Trinitarian help us?

Kelly Kapic 16:42

Yeah, th yeah, thanks. I think partly where you're pointing is one of the biggest things that was helpful to me and John Owen, who that's my dissertation and someone I've I've cared about for a long time, is he really helped me see how often we tend to pit the persons of the Trinity against one another in a way that it's like the father's associated with wrath and the son is associated with love and the spirit, well, either we don't talk about the spirit or something. And Owen was really great about liberating me to say, no, no, no. The the cross, for example, and Pentecost, right? Or incarnation and Pentecost, these are not, these are it's not that the son and the spirit are what make us lovable. They they the the cross and Pentecost are the signs of God's love, not not it, they're the fruit of God's love, they're not what make God love us. And so to really understand, yeah, yeah, there's these fancy terms like inseparable operations, but the idea is there's this one God, and this love flows from the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. So Jesus isn't trying to convince the Father to love us, he is loving us, and to start really understanding that and then what it means that the Spirit, who is the love of God poured into our hearts and what that means. Um Yeah, I'm not sure if you wanted to go into that. No, no, that was it.

James Wood 18:01

I mean, I the the the one line I think that when I was reading through the first time that I was like, oh man, I really hope people catch this uh early on was uh you said uh Jesus doesn't convince the Father to love us, he is the Father's love for us.

Speaker 3 18:17

Yeah.

James Wood 18:18

It's like, man, like that would go a long way if people really caught that. And uh and think I'm glad you picked up kind of where I was trying to gesture toward, because I think that was really powerful.

Derek Rishmawy 18:27

I find the same thing with the cross. People talk about like the cross as the thing that like a like allows God to forgive us, and there's a way in which that's accurate, and at the same time it's not. It's actually the way God goes about forgiving us. It is it is how he is doing it. He is already, he is moving in that direction. The cross is the the incomplet. And I actually I I actually got some of the way Owen was actually helpful in explicating some of that dynamic as well, which is interesting. I was I was noticing you have this that the the the Christocentric theme of Christ's faith for us, uh, but you're uh of his love of God first. Um and so much of that is often sourced, at least in the contemporary discussions that I would see, people always just put that in in in kind of torrents' basket.

Christ's Vicarious Love and Agency

Derek Rishmawy 19:20

One of the things that was helpful is realizing that same dynamic is at work in the cross when you start to realize that um it's not that the cross is what allows God to forgive us, it's actually how God accomplishes the forgiveness that he is setting about to to to bring about. It's it's it's how he goes about setting aside our sins. Um and Owen was actually very helpful for me in kind of crossing crossing that uh crossing that conceptual pass, which brings me to kind of a related thread. So much of the argument has the the Owen substructure, and you connect it to at places, Christ acting for us, in our place, and sort sort of this, you know, Christ-loving God for us. Yeah. Uh as us. Oftentimes that gets put in the kind of the vicariousness of faith and associated with the torrences, but you don't really go there with them. You you kind of root that back further. And I'd love to hear you more uh just talk a little bit more about that theme of Christ acting for us and kind of the way that you have uh kind of developed that thought, like Christ acting in our place as us first.

Kelly Kapic 20:31

Yeah. Yeah. For me, it was I mean, Torrents, I I I've learned so much and so appreciate TF Torrents in all kinds of ways. So I definitely am not trying to say he wasn't an influence. No, that's me. That's me saying it. I'm sending those emails to Derek. I'm not having him about that. That's fine. But um, but having said that, I do think at his best, when he's at his best on that, he's actually is drawing from this tradition, which are going to the early fathers and and all the way through the reformers into into someone like Owen. And in some ways, part of what I realized after doing this for a while is this will sound like I'm changing the conversation, but I'm not. Debates about imputation, right? Nowadays it's kind of like no one believes in that anymore. That's crazy, that's all legal, that's just you, you know, what are you doing? You and and honestly, to be fair, the way many of us have talked about it, you could dismiss it because it does sound like Jesus got this checklist and he's like, okay, I did that, I did that, I did that, I did that. And now I'm gonna take my side of the spreadsheet ledger and I'm gonna give you credit for it, something like that. And I think in the midst of some of those debates, we lost sight of like what we're actually talking about. And it really, you can write volumes, but really what you're talking about is loving God and loving your neighbor. That's what you're talking about. And Jesus is the one who perfectly loves God. And so that's why you can talk about things like faith. But he's he is the faithful one, and he's perfectly loving neighbor. And me being connected to him by his spirit is key. It is not about a list of to-dos and don'ts. Yes, they matter, but you have to frame it in terms of love. Does that make sense? You see how that's like imputation. I do think it's a way to talk about imputation that all of a sudden people might go, oh, that's what we mean. Like we're like we're benefiting from what Christ has done for us. What we mean by benefiting is not just a list of things. We're talking about benefiting from we're entering into his love of God. We're entering into his love of neighbor. That's what we're benefiting from.

Derek Rishmawy 22:40

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Speaker 1 23:42

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Alastair Roberts 24:43

Could

Understanding the Law and Gospel Distinction

Alastair Roberts 24:44

you talk a bit about the Low Gospel distinction and the way that it can help us in thinking through these issues in our relationship to God?

Kelly Kapic 24:54

Yeah, thanks. Sometimes we'll we'll take good ideas and then we go too far. One of the things I always think about in the early, I don't know, it was 2008, 2005, something like that. But I remember turning to my students, I teach at Covenant College, and I remember turning to my students one day and saying, you're not allowed to use the word gospel anymore. Because at the time it was everything was was gospel. You know, this was the rise of the gospel coalition, gospel conferences, gospel books. And and all of a sudden I found it was like, well, yes, you prayed, but was it a gospel prayer? Yes, you you read that passage and you preach it, but was it a gospel? And all of a sudden I'm like, what does that even mean? And it really tended to be reduced to it meant justification by faith alone. And again, you can write Derek about this, but I believe in justification by faith alone. I'm not ever nothing I'm about to say is to undermine that. But you can't read the gospels and substitute the phrase justification by faith alone every time that word shows up. It doesn't exactly work. It's part of the gospel, right? Um so trying to think through how do we understand, because often when people talk about the gospel in some of those ways, not the not the best leaders in the area, but sometimes they talk about it and then speak so negatively about the law, right? And so what I saw in preaching and a lot of teaching was, and I'm sure I've participated in some of this, where you think that the sermon or or what you're supposed to do is read a passage of scripture, show what God expects, show how far short we fall, note that Jesus was faithful and we're not, and that's the end. And that's great at first, especially when you're overwhelmed with your guilt and shame. But actually, that is in a sense, to speak theologically, it's like denying the resurrection. It's denying both creation and resurrection, that God actually, He's not giving laws just to like, I wonder if you'll keep them. He's giving laws because he cares about love. And so for me, it was really fun just just trying to work through carefully how do we think about law and gospel, both of them in healthy, appropriate kind of ways.

Derek Rishmawy 27:08

I that one as a preaching theme. I remember my early years, my early couple of years in college ministry, really, really nailing um, hey, the cross and you can't save yourself and this or that. And then yeah, again, somewhere around year two, where it's like, okay, but there's union and then there's resurrection, and you get the Holy Spirit, and there there's gotta be you also have to tell people they can obey.

Kelly Kapic 27:35

Yeah. Um it does matter if you, if you're if you're gonna hit your children or not. Like that's not, yeah, you're forgiven in Christ, and that's relevant, otherwise you're going to jail.

unknown 27:45

Right.

Kelly Kapic 27:45

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, it's just like obedience is not a bad thing.

Derek Rishmawy 27:49

Yeah, that that one as just uh even just the the really the really good news to tell a student it, like you actually don't have to stay stuck there.

Kelly Kapic 27:58

Yeah.

Derek Rishmawy 27:59

You're not you're not stuck. I was I mean, I was talking to a student just la this last week. He breaks the power of canceled sin. Sin is canceled, and he breaks its power, and you get to get up and obey in new ways. Um in the power of the spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

James Wood 28:15

Yeah. The line that you have, can I just uh I think you were done, Derek. But the line that you have there that I I love so much on page 251, you said, and I I'm like, I exactly believe this, and I think that this gets um pe uh in evangelical circles, this can get really missed, is that similustis a pecator does represent in some ways our experience and struggle, but not our theological identity. Yeah. I absolutely agree with that. Like you're a saint, and you have another page, like you're saints, and like and that's when when Paul's talking about when he gets when he's probably most emphatic about declaring the sainthood of the cr of the people he's talking to, he's talking to the Corinthians, yeah, who are you know deeply mired uh in the struggles that he's got to deal with. But he's he doesn't say, Well, you're just you know, I've I don't I guess this makes sense because we're sinners and saints. He's like, No, you're saints. No, that's it.

Kelly Kapic 29:04

But yeah, I I I just think you're I think you're right. And for me, that's such a simple way to clarify. Because as a reformed theologian, often working in reformed churches, like I whether it's intended or not, so many people leave church on Sunday thinking the main thing they were supposed to learn is how bad of a sinner they were. And then it is an afterthought and an important one, but that God still loves you. And you're like, no, no, no.

James Wood 29:27

That actually I would get it in circles in um in an evangelical ministry that I was connected to at one point, um, which I won't name, but it would almost it would almost like the implicit understanding of sanctification was just thinking how bad, yes, how how forgiven you are. And that's like the main or only way to think about growth. And I just think that's off. But it does get me. The other point, the question I wanted to ask relate to this is you don't take you don't uh take sin unseriously, and and I actually think you have resources here that are quite interesting. Um

Capital 'S' Sin

James Wood 29:58

to think about sin in a deep way and to be very serious about it by talking about it's around page 227, where you actually expound on sin as a type of moral agent. Um and I and I could you could you riff on that? And also I think it's very relevant to me, this this category right here, because we've just had a coup last couple weeks a revisiting of the conversation of concupiscence. And how do you think that this category, the the stuff you're trying to expound here, could also speak into that conversation?

Kelly Kapic 30:33

Yeah, it's a it's thank you. That's a that's a great question. And that was one of the things that became more clear to me doing the research on this. You know, people like Beverly Gaventa um and others, I've just been writing these really helpful things on Romans and elsewhere. Um and all of a sudden his name is why is his name escaping my mind right now? But uh he's at Yale, he works with Mirzlav Wolf, and he's got this really fascinating volume on sin. Um, but there's there it does, it is very interesting, and it's not new. When you look back, Owen talks about sin in very personified ways. And I do think part of what you have to understand is it, I think you could, it'd be an interesting debate for translators. Why in Romans, maybe, and I know we won't do this, but why sometimes not capitalize sin, right? Just like we capitalize spirit, that's a that's an interpretive move. But sin is crouching at your door, sin is coming after you, sin wants to consume you, sin wants you, and and there is something about it as a power that is not simply a depersonalized list of to-dos and don'ts. And starting to think of that way, and that's Puritans do that all the time, but somehow we kind of lost that, I think.

Derek Rishmawy 31:53

Yeah, I have questions. I saw that, and I know there's obviously like the apocalyptic school influence. I think it was De Boer and uh Cosiman and uh oh gosh, I know I'm gonna be able to do that.

Kelly Kapic 32:03

Yeah, Susan Eastman's great and like Yeah, yeah.

Derek Rishmawy 32:06

And I like some of that, and I also this this is I I think that kind of robust more than just merely personal uh social sin as power, yes. I do wonder metaphysically about the status of it, is like, is sin in Paul as a power actually, is that a I and I have a I have a friend I I harass about this um because he's kind of more in that school. Are we talking about are are we talking about Satan or are we talking about what? Right? Uh what like dogma and this is so so push on me because cause this is the thing where I I I think we have to talk about it as and and pastor people as if okay, there's your personal sin, there is there is your sin nature, right? So it's not just lists, it's actual inclinations. And then it seems like some people get taken out, like they get they get tackled on the field by something that feels like it's not just them. And shouldn't should we do we is that just demons, or are we go from there, Kelly. I want to hear respond to my to my to my to my questioning.

Kelly Kapic 33:24

Yeah, I think sometimes, you know, and again, I'm a I'm a simple theologian, right? So I'll let the the old and new testament scholars really dig in. But I would say sometimes ambiguity, I as a theologian, I love clarity, but sometimes ambiguity is our friend. And you know, when you actually do biblical theology, starting with like the Satan, and and all of a sudden you realize how much we're bringing to texts that aren't there originally. Now, some of that can be very legitimate, especially if we're reading backwards in light of the New Testament. I'm not against that, but we have to understand what we're doing. And so even sin, sin can be this breaking of the law for sure, but it seems to get persona. Sin is crouching at the door. There's something going on. So it's, I'm definitely not saying it's less than internal disorder desires, but it does seem that it is, it gets treated, particularly in the middle of Romans, as like a force. And I think that Paul is drawing on this larger tradition that's going on there. Actually, I would be curious, but Alistair, I don't know if you've spent much time in this work, but given given some of how you approach these things, for me, that just became really interesting to go, of course, I, you know, I'm an Owen guy, I think we have disordered desires, uh, uh, all of that. But there is also something larger, and there is this personification.

Alastair Roberts 34:50

One of the things that I think you can see, for instance, just in the way that the biblical narrative presents itself, there are repeating patterns that have archetypal features which present figures like Pharaoh, present figures like um stories of Abraham and Sarah and Hagar, or the story of um Esau and Jacob, all of these stories have a sort of fall-like pattern. And in certain ones of them, you will have a sort of archetypal tyrant figure, and it feels like as these repeat, there's a sort of tyrant behind the tyrants that seems to come into view. And so I think there's that shadowy dynamic that later on, of course, when we get to a place like Revelation 12, you're told the dragon is the great serpent of old, and you can see him behind these puppet kingdoms, as it were, the beast of the sea and then the beast of the land, that are sort of his mini-mees. But that it seems to me is an unveiling of a dynamic that's been going on all the time. And a gradual escalation of sin. We tend to place a bit too much emphasis, I think, upon the fall, yeah, and miss the fact that this is an this is an unraveling that occurs through a number of different stages. The killing of um Abel by Cain, the fall of Lamech, and then the ways in which we can see the sin of the whole earth prior to the flood, and then Babel. All these things are developments of that story of sin spreading. And I think Paul has that in mind. I don't think that he's just presenting the events of um Genesis 3 as if that was the whole story. Right.

Kelly Kapic 36:44

Rather, it's it's the start of a story, it's not the end.

Alastair Roberts 36:46

Yeah. Yeah. It's the decisive start. One thing I wanted to hear your thoughts on.

Kelly Kapic 36:50

Can I just say one thing real quick, Alistair? Is I do wonder to connect what you're saying with Derek, I do partly also think one of our problems is we've so psychologized all of these things that we do think of sin as purely internal psychological disordering. And it's again that it does affect our psychology, but it's got to be bigger, which is thus the story you just told. Sorry,

Obedience to the law

Kelly Kapic 37:11

go ahead.

Alastair Roberts 37:12

One of the things I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on, when we talk about the law, for instance, we tend to think about it very much in terms of the category of obedience and the way in which the gospel responds to the crisis of the law standing outside of us and our inability to obey it. And yet, within the New Testament, there seems to be a lot about empowerment and authorization by Christ and the Spirit that enable us to act in a way that's not just obedience, it's a way that's powerful to change things in a way that is a continuation and a manifestation of Christ's earthly ministry, for instance, at the beginning of the book of Acts. And there's very much an element, for instance, in places like Titus and elsewhere, of biblical discussion of good work, New Testament discussion of good works, that seems to have that outward-focused mission. This is these are the sort of good works upon which a new city would be founded. This is not just the private works of obedience by which you secure your standing. And I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on how that element, maybe the sort of lordly virtues of the Christian life, that we've been forgiven so bountifully, and we can extend that forgiveness. Are there aspects of the Christian life in terms of authorization and empowerment that have just been underexplored because we're so focused upon that initial crisis of justification?

Kelly Kapic 38:50

Yeah, I I I really like how you put that, and it made me think uh well, let me let me kind of tell you where I would end and then we can unpack it. I think it's an example of again with a weak doctrine of creation, how it screws you up. Because we think, okay, God created the world, then we fell, we broke the law or whatever, and now we've got Jesus to keep the law, etc. And then we're like, I don't know, we don't want to make good works, earning your way to God. But no, no, no. The God who out of the overflow of his love creates, and he created the world to work in a certain kind of way, and living in that world, shalom is not a picture you hang on, is you know, a still picture you hang on the wall. Shalom is a movie. It's an ongoing living organic reality that we are meant to participate in. And and humans were meant to push out that garden and bring order into the chaos, right? And and to represent God and his goodness in the world, that's called good work. And sin disorders that and is the rupturing of shalom. But as shalom comes in Christ by his spirit, we who get taste of that should then participate in good creation work again. And so there, like, it's not about are you earning God's favor or not? Literally, I'm I'm working in my garden because it's good work. And I'm working with students because it's really good work and they're creatures made in the image of God. And I am trying to care about my community and these relationships and my animals because the God who made it all loves it. And he doesn't hate us, he hates the sin that's destroying and distorting his shalom. And so if you can frame good work in terms of the goodness of creation, rather than just a debate about did you do enough? Are you trying to earn God's favor? That just is an exhausting, not very helpful conversation. But if you're like, no, God actually didn't screw around, he he knows what he wants to do, but he did make us, and he made us so that we're not God. And so there is there is that ability to rebel against him, but he wants to love his creation in and through his image bearers. And that's good work.

Alastair Roberts 40:59

I'm struck by the statement in Ephesians 2, verse 10, for we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them, which seems to be a bit grander, very much that creational vision that you're laying out.

James Wood 41:14

I don't let anybody share the gospel from Ephesians 2 unless they include verse 10.

Derek Rishmawy 41:19

Well, that's great. I love that. James is a very James is a stickler about which verses get used. Not all. Not not all.

James Wood 41:27

Um I believe in the law, Derek. I'm a good idea. Yeah, I know you do.

Derek Rishmawy 41:32

I know my own laws. I know you do. Um speaking of the work, uh, you actually dedicate

The Role of Liturgy in Corporate Worship

Derek Rishmawy 41:38

a good amount of time to the work of the people, uh the the the kind of the liturgy. Um you've got two chapters on ecclesia, uh, on corporate worship and not just corporate worship, but also ritual and liturgy, that hot button sexy term that everything is, you know, there's a liturgy to liturgies. The liturgy of liturgies, a sacramental vision of sacramentality. Um so sorry, apologies to anybody who wrote a liturgies book. Uh several of them were good. Um But you you you you have How many emails does Derek get? None. Nobody listens, Kelly. Nobody listens.

James Wood 42:18

Your emails, so many good opportunities today.

Derek Rishmawy 42:21

No, you you you uh I'm actually just curious what drove you in this. So so you you are you are pro-liturgy, but you have a whole bunch of star.

Kelly Kapic 42:32

There's no option.

Derek Rishmawy 42:34

But talk about that a little bit. I'd I'd love to hear you talk about the contemporary moments kind of at least a certain kind of nerd's reappreciation of of liturgy and kind of what goes wrong, what goes what goes right with some of that. Because you have a lot of good cautions and reflections on on liturgy as magic, uh as silver bullet. Yeah.

Kelly Kapic 42:55

Yeah. I mean, you can be part of a liturgy, be part of corporate worship and be hard-hearted and a jerk. Um But again, this is over the long period of studying this, that it just became a ri uh actually for a couple years, and that's not an exaggeration. I actually thought of designing the entire book around corporate liturgy. And the beginning was going to be calling, right? And then, you know, a confession and prayer, and you could do all of that. Um and there's reasons why I ended up just reducing this the two final chapters. Let me maybe let me lay out a couple things and then you can come back on that. So basically, where I ended up at is in a sense, I really believe every Sunday in corporate worship, even though we most of the time don't realize it, we're being taken through the arc of the Christian life. And so even if you don't have a formal call to worship, you are called to worship. And there is that gathering, right? And and corporate worship has these various elements of Of calling, of prayer, of word read and you know, exposited, and and um Lord's Supper, baptism, um, ultimately and an offering and benediction. And to make a long story short, I've come to believe that that movement in a corporate worship is actually the movement of the Christian life from calling all the way to benediction, being sent out. And the argument I make in the book is that there's a three-quartered rope, in that it's a way to think about that, the Christian life in general and corporate worship representing this always has three parts Christ, his church, and then ego, the the individual. And it came, became clear that Christ himself is the one who's leading the worship. And so I'll just I'll just use one example because this is too vague, and then we can answer questions. But so calling, right? You read in you read in Matthew, you know, out of Egypt I called my son, which we know drawn from the Old Testament. You look in the Old Testament, that's clearly a reference to corporate Israel. And Matthew applies it to Christ as Messiah. So Christ is the called one, but as the Messiah called, he is now representing corporate Israel. But you can also find in that same New Testament that I am called, right? That we are called by name. And so it does seem that there is this calling that is Christ-centered, ecclesially grounded, and still personal. And that threefold dynamic, I think, is really helpful because most of the time, especially in evangelical circles, corporate worship and the Christian life in general is about me and Jesus, which is great in some ways and exhausting and deeply problematic in others. It puts way too much pressure on the individual. But if you really do understand the good news of this is Jesus who's responding, and his body's responding, and I'm part of that. Now all of a sudden we can make sense of good days and bad days, days I believe and days I don't, it starts to frame the Christian life in a different kind of way. And I think corporate liturgy, this is partly why you need to be in corporate communion, is it's shaping us in ways we don't even realize.

Derek Rishmawy 46:15

Kelly, I I used this, I will say I was working through that chapter right before I preached on worship this last Sunday. So it was it was very helpful. And part of what was good, what was um trying to drive home was this element of the importance of Sunday. Worship is not just some random uh kind of list show up, pulling your it's the encounter with Christ day after day, week after week, in his word, in the sacrament, in the worship, in the forgiveness, pres having the gospel presented to your soul, but but that in all of these elements, Christ Himself is working, he is ministering to you and actually uh through you by the Spirit, like I uh you know, singing your songs when you can't sing them for you, as it were. And so being in the room with the body, being in the room with the body matters. Um because encountering Christ and actually being you know singing with Christ matters. Yeah. And that's a shaping reality.

James Wood 47:21

That holds together the dichotomy too, the of the representation and imitation, because like you re Derek uh echoed the the Pauline uh teaching that right, like when you don't know what to pray, the spirit prays for you, right? And there's something really comforting about that, but it's really mysterious. What does that mean?

Kelly Kapic 47:39

Yeah.

James Wood 47:40

Well, uh, one concrete way it could also mean is also in in an analogous sense, maybe, as an extension of that logic. Well, sometimes when you don't even feel it, you don't know what to pray, you don't just say, come to church and join in the liturgy so that it carries you forward. Right.

Kelly Kapic 47:55

Yeah. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I mean, I think part of the reason this is so meaningful to me is um I don't want to take too through the whole thing, but 2008 my wife had cancer, she survived, but since 2010, she's been dealing with daily serious chronic pot pain and fatigue. And there have been plenty of times when we go to church, especially early on, where I'm like, I can't sing. I don't even think I can stand up. And definitely for her, that's the case. And to discover, I don't actually need to sing, praise God. But I need to be with these people who are believing when I'm finding it very hard to believe. And I need to, I need to be under the umbrella of their praise. And what I really discover is, and they are under the umbrella of Christ's praise, that somehow Christ is both the one we worship and the lead worshiper, the Hebrews 2 material that's just so beautiful.

Derek Rishmawy 48:49

That that thought, that thought especially was, and I'd heard it before, but that thought was driven home for me as I was reading that, that that he's he's there ahead of us, even in these even in these things. I I it is still very easy to have the frame of pure response to him, not apart from him, but yes, like you know, um but him actually being on our side of the table as it were, um uh you know, leading us in in praise is uh comforting, uh especially in those moments.

Alastair Roberts 49:27

What are some of the ways that uh Christian life can be a common or corporate Christian life outside of the context of gathered worship?

Kelly Kapic 49:38

Yeah, I I mean I I think that becomes a model for the rest of life,

Living Out the Christian Life in Community

Kelly Kapic 49:42

right? But I do think it is just life together. That the the the flip side of union with Christ, or maybe that's the wrong way to put it, as you guys the you guys know well, union with Christ is about I am connected to Christ, but by implication also his people. And that side, I've been very happy with the renaissance of focus on union with Christ in the last 20 years, but I don't think there's been very much emphasis on how union with Christ also necessarily implies union with his people. And by people, biblically, it's not like I'm for the theological idea of the universal church. I I support it, I think it's important. But in actual practice, it's kind of like the, you know, we're talking about, you know, justified and sinner at the same time. Yes, there's something about that, but in practice, what church looks like is it looks like the church I go to, the people I worship with, the community where I live. And through that, we're part of this larger thing. And so to have life together, corporate worship brings us together, but then hopefully that that then shapes our life as a whole.

Derek Rishmawy 50:53

Yeah, that that is if there's a theme I try and hammer with my students who are highly disconnected and online, and it is very easy to deal with big abstract con uh concepts that don't touch down. And and that that particular one of, hey, I'm part of the church that because I'm connected to Christ, is like, yeah, but like you don't actually show up at a church. Yeah. It's kind of dicey. Uh the the the connection is tenuous. Um but that that I think is like a good word to end on is that our life in Christ culminates in the people in and among the people of God, among whom Christ is present, among whom God has taken up residence uh as their Lord and uh in love. Um and I think your your book takes us into that uh so well. So uh Kelly, thank you so much for this conversation and thank you so much for the book. Thank you guys. You guys are great. It's so fun to talk with you. If you are here so far, again, show notes, but just look it up Christian Life by Kelly Kempik. It's in the New Studies in Dogmatic series. Um pick it up wherever fine books are sold, uh, and enjoy yourself and be edified and grow. Uh, if you've also listened this far and this conversation was a blessing, encouragement, or the shows, feel free to rate and review us on iTunes, uh, share uh that sort of thing. But for now, this has been Mere Fidelity.