Divided We Stand: On Denominations

How often do you think about denominations? Is this the way Jesus meant for the church to be? Are we actually united without realizing it? Derek, Brad, and Alistair examine the pros and cons of denominations, poke at Rome a little, and pursue authentic catholicity.  

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Transcript

Sponsor And Book Discount

Derek Rishmawy 0:00

This episode is brought to you by Lexim Press, who publishes books that love the Word, love the faith, and love the Church. Lexin Press was recently acquired by Baker Publishing Group, and there will be more news to follow. Our July book of the month is The Culture of God's Word, Faithful Ministry in a Post Christian Society. You can receive a 30% discount on this title and all previous books of the month by visiting Bakerbookhouse.com backslash pages backslash Mere Fidelity. You can find that link in our show notes to get 30% off of our book of the month from Lexon Press.

Why Denominations Raise Unity Questions

Derek Rishmawy 0:37

Hello and welcome to another episode of Mere Fidelity, a podcast by Mere Orthodoxy, where we think about the Word of God and the world we live in. My name is Derek Rishmalli, and I'll be your host for today. I'm joined today by regular casting crew members Alistair Roberts and Brad East. Good to see you, fellas. Good to be here. All right. So we thought we'd kick in this uh into this conversation today with a subject that Alistair brought up, which is the issue of denominations and denominationalism. He'll tee that up in a minute, but I think it is kind of fitting to reflect on the on the phenomenon at the end of June, beginning of July, after several denominations, several largest denominations in the U.S. have had their general assemblies, their national gatherings, doing the work of their various churches and respective denominations gathering together to kind of just think about what are we doing? Why are we doing it? Why are we engaged in these practices? And how can we do that better with uh with a more kind of theological frame of mind? So why don't you set us up, Alistair, a little bit by leading us into the actual questions you would like to discuss?

Alastair Roberts 1:42

Well, certainly it seems that denominations are a feature of each of our existence within the church. We all have different denominational contexts, and denominations are often challenged by other traditions within the church who argue that Protestants, with their plural great plurality of denominations, are somehow violating the unity of the church. What are we to think about denominations theologically? Practically are they uh good practice to be re retained? Should we be thinking in non-denominational ways, trying to live outside of those denominational structures, or so should we be thinking very much in the context of Roman Catholicism or something like that, which is not non-denominational in the sense of many independent evangelicals, but is maybe pre-denominational? So I want us to think more theologically about it, to think about how we square denominations with the unity of the church, how we practice our denominational life, and how we understand its role within the picture of the church more broadly. How does our denomination fit within the universal church? All those sorts of questions.

Longing For Unity Without Utopias

Derek Rishmawy 3:08

Brad, why don't you uh why don't you head on in there as as our as our resident, I think you're the most pro-unity guy on the podcast. I think you're the saddest on Reformation Day. Is that the case?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Of the co-hosts from your fidelity, I am indeed the saddest on Reformation Day. Derek, you know me too well. I feel like you you see me. You see me as well. I do.

Derek Rishmawy 3:34

I see you invite.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Uh what do I want to say? Oh well, I'm simultaneous. I'm I I'm gonna occupy, I suppose, two roles in this conversation. Uh one is the unhappiest with the state of affairs, but also a kind of pragmatist, ecclesial pragmatist. Um, um John Webster has has this wonderful line, which I will butcher. I don't have it committed to memory, but at the end of the opening chapter in his book, The Domain of the Word, he says we we theologians today have to learn how to cease writing as if providence stopped working in our time. Um and I think that that is a wonderful principle to live by as a Christian and to think by as a theologian. And I never want to do that. I never want to take the status quo for granted as if God has ceased to work. Um it's it's a kind of theological analog to the end of history. It's like, well, here we are and it'll never be different, uh, and we have to accept it. But at the same time, um, this is where we are. And I was I was I, like y'all, I was born into the state of a divided church, um, into denominations and denominationalism. I mean, the irony of my role here in this conversation and on the pod is that I was actually born and raised in a deeply primitivist uh anti-credal, anti-tradition, anti-tradition tradition um that wanted uh to reinstate or restore the quote unquote New Testament church over against, not just the Papism and the East, which you know, basically beyond the tale, but precisely against Presbyterians with their with their wacky traditions and post-biblical innovations. And if we only sat alone in a room in a Bible and read the and read it as if no one had read it before us, then we would all agree. Um and uh I obviously have many disagreements with with uh that tradition and movement, as most successors of it today, in fact, too, do. But I think that that desire for unity, that desire for overcoming the barriers that we have erected and the denominations that have resulted is worth celebrating and pursuing. But that doesn't mean that I want to give into a kind of naive non-denominationalism, as Derek likes to say. He know when you tell him you're non-denominational, he'll tell you you're a Baptist. Um and and so, so, you know, I so those are my two, my own personal two polls. On the one hand, the most sympathetic to the small catholic uh vision of ecclesiology, uh, the most the the the most open to the kind of tra the a kind of this worldly tragedy of of church division, as well as a pragmatism that accepts this is where we are, and I'm not gonna try to remake the church tomorrow or to or to expect any kind of utopian uh movement to establish uh what my mind can imagine in my lifetime.

Division As Judgment And Mercy

Alastair Roberts 6:54

The point that you reference from Webster, I think, is a very helpful place to begin. And in many respects, I would maybe push along those lines maybe against something of your sense of tragedy in recognizing that the position that we find ourselves in is itself a result of divine providence, and reflecting, for instance, upon Israel's history, there are ways in which the division of the kingdom was tragic, but was also necessary and prevented far worse tragedies from befalling the nation. The nation would have been worse off had it not been divided, and so there are ways in which that division served to protect certain things that might otherwise have been lost if they'd been forced into uh premature unity. And I wonder whether we can, along those sorts of analogies, see our own position as one which is providential, partly a sort of judgment, partly a sort of as in God's judgments more generally, these judgments on the one hand, they have a sort of backward-looking force of judging what has happened and giving something to respond to that, but also they have a prospective force, they're looking forward to an order that will come afterwards, and they protect that possibility. So for instance, as Adam and Eve are cast out of the garden, they're prevented from eating from the tree of life. That's in one sense looking back punishment upon what they have done, taking from the tree that they should not have eaten of. But on the other hand, it's preventing them from being confirmed in evil in a way that would enable their rebellion to be solidified and to be perpetuated. In the same way the structures of enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, or the way that the earth resists man's labor, all of these serve to buffer and to prevent sin from having its true effect and full effect. So to add to your points about providence, I wonder whether we can see a providential judgment, but also protection of the good of the church within denominations.

Derek Rishmawy 9:30

It's always nice to have Peter join the podcast, uh lightheart, uh, join us even when he can't join us. Um, I I I I I obviously think that the Babel and uh kind of the the the picture of Babel, the scattering of the languages and the tongues as a judgment and also a mercy, right? You have you have so many different ways of uh trying to deal with the problem of sinful um division, right? Many divisions are based on sin, some are not. Um, you know uh or at least somebody sinning somewhere, but not everybody who divides is is is in sin, put it that way. Um you you have those two impulses, right? You have the you have the primitivist, let's start from the beginning of things, let's burn it all to the ground and raise it all back up, and if we all just read it together, we'll just come to the same conclusion and and and just start from, you know, start from year zero again and we'll get it right. Um and that's that's the the the the tradition that Brad's talking about. But you also have the kind of babelic impulse of, hey, let's all gather ourselves under one strong uh institutional authority structure that enforces conformity and uniformity and all these sorts of things with the power of the state and all that. And there was kind of the more the the the Roman and perhaps Eastern temptation, although the East always gets off the hook on these discussions, even though half the time their patriarchs are all arguing with each other. So I'm just gonna say that, just to assert a just to assert that just for fun. But um th those two impulses are are it it oftentimes those are the two poles that I see people um kind of going back and forth. Most of the time, or my neck of the woods, you know, I grew up in a I grew up in the non-denominational kind of ecosystem of Orange County, although even then it was funny to see things reassert themselves. So Calvary Chapel has a lot a lot of those primitivist kind of impulses there, but Calvary Chapel churches are functionally a denomination here in the South Southwest and so on and so forth, uh, that has uh a lot of doctrinal uniformity. Um but th those those impulses are always there and you never get away from it. I don't think you you can ever get away from the tendency to divide, the tendency to read a text, come to a different conclusion, um, and or or a different practice or a different preference. You know, this side of the second coming, uh you're never gonna get a full unity without some sort of sinful use of force uh to enforce it uh with with with a with a heavy hand. And I so this is this is denominations are realities that exist that exist uh partially because we live between the times, right? It's just it is the case. Uh so one of the reasons I don't get too exercised about it um is the alternatives don't seem appealing either. Like the the ways of procure the ways of procuring unity are are external, uh visible unity, right? Which already kind of stacks the deck on how we're thinking about the kind of unity that is required by the testaments, by the Lord. Um the alternatives of of getting to where some people would like us to be I think involve greater challenges, greater threats, uh greater dangers that I am I'm happy to deal with the current problems we have rather than those problems, put it that way. Um so there's there's a there's a there's a piece I have there. I also, I mean, the the reality is my my understanding of like the nature of the true church is you know, th this is this is one of the one of the elephants in the room is is sometimes it is the assumption that it must be a public visible institutional unity that that is the that is the the theologically most important thing that I think ups the ante on some of the anxieties. And I I am just not convinced that that is actually the most important thing, right? I I feel like that's a that's a Roman premise uh in my book. So uh that that's kind of a little bit of a I don't know, Presbyterian minority report there.

Literacy And The Rise Of Denoms

Alastair Roberts 14:06

You mentioned the necessity or the unavoidability of denominational distinctions and divisions. Is that in fact the case? I mean the sort of denominations and denominationalism that we're dealing with in the modern world seems to be fairly novel. There have always been various divisions within the church, but denominations as we exp experience them do seem to be more of a recent phenomenon.

Derek Rishmawy 14:34

Yeah, because literacy is a more recent phenomenon, right? This is a point that uh Carl Truman made on the podcast, like I don't know, seven or eight years ago, uh the kind of the whatever the anniversary of the Reformation 500 years. And part of, you know, we were we were dealing with the discussion around, you know, whether it's the Protestant Reformation's fault that we're all divided and modernity happened and McDonald's exists and that sort of thing. Um and part of his part of his argument there was, you know, even if it weren't for Luther, right, Luther was the man for the hour, I think even providentially, it's just it's hard to avoid his unique personality and all that kind of thing. I'm not a I don't subscribe to the great man of the great man theory of history, but also I don't completely reject it. But even putting that aside, um he points out that whenever you they've done political studies, that whenever you whenever you introduce higher rates of literacy into a society, people read, people think, people argue. And unless there is a strong arm of the state kind of squelching dissent in some way, or if you're, you know, communist China and you you've got all the AI surveillance that allows you to kind of operate in that way, inevitably disputes occur. Inevitably divisions occur. Inevitably these things happen. And so I think one of the reasons we didn't have some of those debates and some of those disputes and some of those divisions in earlier uh eras of the church was because we did have a largely and I think that's maybe overstate the the unity we did have was maybe overstated at times, so that that's a whole thing. Um the the optical illusion that you know the Antiochine or the that the that the uh oh who are the who are the Orthodox uh churches, Calcedonian church of the Egyptian. The conceit that the conceit that those churches just didn't exist when we just talk about Western church histories if they weren't there. Um I think that's partially an optical illusion, partially because we had a we had a largely illiterate society that did not have access to text, did not have access to a printing press, did not have access to the written words of scripture except in very circumscribed ways that was mediated through a smaller population of priests. And even then, the priests weren't always that well educated and uh and and and you know up for up for uh making theological distinctions and debates or maybe even not well policed. So you know the the local diversity, the local diversity uh within a region theologically might actually be higher because the capacity for a centralized organ, a centralized magisterium to kind of keep tabs on what everybody's teaching everywhere and making sure they're all teaching the same things, uh, the expectations of that capacity were lower. And so again, all of that is to say, yes, it's not like it's not inevitable in an absolute metaphysical sense of this is just what always has to happen. But it it is hard to avoid the conclusion that given higher literacy rates and given the advance of the economics of the age, uh uh a more free and open society, all those sorts of things, that these sorts of things would happen is what I'm saying. So that that's it so it's a it's a more lit- it's a it's a it's a mitigated kind of historical, maybe not absolute necessity, but pretty much I don't see another way that it's not gonna happen kind of necessity. Uh so I don't know, push back on that, but I just I I just don't see a way of avoiding a version of this somehow.

Why Roman Unity Both Helps And Hides

Alastair Roberts 18:12

So I the Catholic Church still seems to be huge. It seems to be more institutionally unified than it was, say, in the end of the 14th century. Um why doesn't Catholicism just work? Well, again, if the optical I interrupted you, Brad.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Well, let me let me let me try to bolster Callister's point, but not in the service of uh exclusively sort of like the the the the Roman model, but just to say poke on Rome for a minute after that. That that's yeah yeah, I know you will. Um uh uh What are you eating, Derek?

Derek Rishmawy 18:46

I just slammed some honey. My throat's kind of weird.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Oh gosh, dear editor, please keep paying. I've never seen you do that in team months. Okay, I don't care. My gosh.

Derek Rishmawy 18:58

Team honey.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Honey is awesome. I've never seen someone pound it like that. Um all what I'd want to say is um I just think we don't have to have that strong of priors. For the time being, for the lifetime of the ther of the three men on this call, yes, like we are we are stuck with what we were all born into for the time being. But what technology gives, technology can take away. What culture gives, culture can give away. What changes in the world give, changes of the world can change to a new epoch or era. And so while on one hand, I think we all acknowledge that denominate denominationalism, as we have it, is a contingent um event in church and human history. Um, and on the other, Derek, you say it's effectively or practically um inevitable following uh both mass literacy and the rise of the printing press, which I'm a I'm happy to grant in some generic sense. But then all I want to say is we have to expand our imaginations. Like these conversations often take place with a kind of simultaneous end of history mindset, and the Lord will probably return in 50 years mindset. And it's like, well, what if the Lord doesn't return for 50,000 years or half a million years? Like I have no idea.

Derek Rishmawy 20:17

James Jordan has entered the chat.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Like, I have no idea what the future of human civilization or the church looked like. So I'm not going to foreclose on the possibilities available to an omnipotent God. And so building on Alistair's point, if providence has not ceased to work, and if, you know, Rat Ratzinger in a wonderful essay in the late 80s, um, as prefect but pre-pope, he says what he longed for was to be able to look back from some future vantage point, and together with once divided brothers, to look back and to see our divisions as a Felix culpa, as both uh as both the occasion for sin on all sides and as the occasion for the grace of God to bring about something greater than we than when we than we ever could have imagined then or even now. And I have to have that kind of framework to make sense of to make any of this work theologically, even granting that I don't have some ready-made alternative to denominations or denominationalism today or tomorrow.

Derek Rishmawy 21:28

That that would be to sketch out my position. Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I'm happy to have some sort of I have that in my back pocket too. Uh you know, last episode, I think um James and Joe were talking about some of these things and and and uh you know the various the the riches of the varieties of theological traditions and kind of mining those and and realizing that you know the the harvest probably would not be as as wide or as rich had these things not occurred and at the eschaton it's all going to be brought in and all that sort of thing. I mean Bobin's got that. I mean, ke Kevin's got a formulation like that in his um oh the Babel book Beyond author Babble and authority and uh authority after Babel. Yes. I was his TA for that one. I should know the title on that one. But in any case, like absolutely that's that's a thing. Absolutely that's a thing.

Alastair Roberts 22:16

We might not also have to worry about mass literacy for that much longer. So definitely it might be closer than we think.

Derek Rishmawy 22:23

But we have mass TikTokers and mass YouTubers. The the dissemination of forms of argumentation and knowledge. It's all Luther's fault. YouTube exists. But even there, I mean right now, uh the the whole point about Rome, the unity of Rome and the billions there, I again I do think a whole bunch of that is an optical illusion to some degree. Rome Rome is a very large Episcopal church that has within it, I don't know, 15, 20 different kinds of denominations, as it were, at work within the unity. As long as you submit to the Pope, as long as you cross off on a couple of things, like anybody thinking that the the the Roman Catholic faculty at V Villanova versus like St. Thomas versus Notre Dame versus I don't know, the Pontifical Institute and so on and so forth, that there's there's a whole wide variety of things that are happening under the big umbrella of Catholicism. And you look at American Catholics versus like the Hispanic Catholics that my family grew up around and and were and the kinds of things that happen in the local the you know you get credit for being one church because you're not actually enforcing, with the exception of I guess the Society of St. Pius recently got got got uh got the acts today, um, uh you know who knows what will happen in a couple weeks, because you don't enforce certain kinds of biblical discipline, weirdly enough, yeah, you you you can you can keep everybody in. You can keep everybody in. You keep multiplying so um I I again I respectfully dissent from the idea. So so I put it this way, to to keep that size, to keep that superficial unity, you have to give up other, I think, biblical values around ecclesiology and around the nature and shape of the church uh in order for that to work. So I think about the marks of the church in in uh the Reformation and sacrament, word and and also discipline, right? Um I don't think that the way certain communions exercise discipline is good and biblical. But that's part of how they stick together and that's part of how their numbers are what they are. Right? So go for it.

Alastair Roberts 24:47

Push maybe I mean I am far from a Roman Catholic, but let's I'll at least give some response to that. Whatever the failures and limitations of that unity, it's a unity that actually can do a lot. So for instance when you have the Pope coming out with an encyclical when you have various actions and statements and positions taken by the church those weigh something and they have a capacity to speak within society that Protestants lack because of the divisions that we have. And so it I think just to push back against you on these points I do think it is important not to dismiss the reality of something that um Roman Catholic unity represents it is something and it's something that Protestants very palpably lack on certain fronts. Now clearly it's not sufficient to maintain the full uniformity of the church in Orthodoxy. There are lots of ways in which if you experience Catholicism on the ground as I have and you have and Brad has in very different contexts. I grew up in the Republic of Ireland in a very strong Catholic context 81% of the Irish population attended mass every single week when I was growing up. And so it was a very Catholic country but a lot of it very nominal and thin. But yet at the same time it had some force. It wasn't just hollow it wasn't without any sort of meaning. And there is a sort of unity there that matters and you can do a lot of things with that unity that Protestants can't do and I think we can see the weakness of those who lack that unity in the absence of a public voice that really represents Protestants within the public space. Whereas Catholics have a lot of that because they have an institutional unity which again is not going to take you in the direction of uniform belief and orthodoxy who will take you some places.

Derek Rishmawy 27:06

I don't want this to turn into a a a a Catholic bashing episode despite what my people think but I would just say if you look at the state of the Irish Catholic population the Catholic Church in Ireland today you know utter freefall right and and the the complete the complete collapse of the Catholic consensus there. Right? And you look at today Ryan Burge just released some data on the on the way you know the catechesis and the the the moral the variety of moral judgments that exists among these this this very large community in the US again I my my point is just the perception of unity is deceptive in many ways that count. Right? Again, your your average your average Bible believing the the unity you can find on moral issues between your average collection of Bible believing nondenominational churches who have no ecclesial structures connecting them is actually higher half the time. Right.

Alastair Roberts 28:08

So uh yeah I mean just concrete unity and wider unity of a public voice.

Derek Rishmawy 28:17

But but but public voice, public voice, public voice, but public practice and individual piety and the question of like if I had to go out there on the street and if I asked your rand your average your average person identifies as Catholic versus your average person who identifies as evangelical what their stance was on a given moral issue or a given baseline doctrinal issue on on the resurrection or something like that. I I I would feel I mean I don't bet I don't I don't I don't I don't I don't bet money but if I had to bet money I'd probably still lay it I'd probably still lay it on the evangel on the random non evangelical who has no connection at all to the Bible church up the street. So so again I I'm I'm and I and I say this as somebody who's like fairly critical of the complete lack of unity within not with non-denominational structures. I'm I'm a denominational man. I'm a member of a church I I went to my General Assembly last week because I think the public work of the church does matter, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

And so I I just I just don't think we're I just don't think we're um I don't think we're hurting as much relative to the other large communions is let me make one comment and then a transitional question that can that can direct attention away from Rome. The the comment is that I think uh the proper comparison would be between uh your average Roman Catholic and quite literally any Protestant on the street because the moment you start defining which sub subgroup I don't think it's I don't think it's apples and I think it I don't think it's two apples. I think it's apples and oranges. But let me ask you let me ask you a question based on something you said much earlier Derek uh which can which can move the spotlight somewhere else. You said earlier that you know some people think that visible institutional unity is the most important thing. I think I would want to just know what degree of importance is it? Like it I I think what I would want to say is it's not the most important thing but unity unity may unity is unity Christian unity church unity entails more but not less than that. And I wasn't sure where where you would land on with respect to a claim like that and now for a quick word from one of our sponsors.

Visible And Invisible Unity In John 17

Derek Rishmawy 30:41

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SPEAKER_01 31:54

I think I would want to just know what degree of importance is it? Like it I I think what I would want to say is it's not the most important thing um but unity unity may unity is unity cr Christian unity church unity entails more but not less than that. And I wasn't sure where where you would land on with respect to a claim like that.

Derek Rishmawy 32:21

I mean my my baseline for what counts as a church is not so it's not institutional affiliation with the Bishop of Rome or even institutional affiliation with a you know local patriarch or whatever it is. Right. So I don't I that's not my baseline. You know, I'm trying to go back refer referation reformationally to um the word rightly preached, uh the sacraments rightly administered and discipline rightly uh constituted. And so um I I'm gonna go back first of all to unity of doctrine, uh a unity of I mean so we're getting into the issue of of apostolicity, things like that. Um the unified confession of the Lord Jesus Christ uh within within its with its kind of like a with a certain doctrinal baseline uh when it comes to identifying the person and work of Jesus um and who he is and what he's done for us and who we are in relation to him. Um that is going to be where I'm going to start actually is that that unity of the unity of confession when it comes to a unity with with the doctrine given to the saints uh once and for all delivered that sort of thing. Now institutional I think institution public institutional visibility flows from that. Like the church the church is those who confess Lord Jesus Christ and believe on him and are united with him by faith uh and then that has outward visible that has an outward visible manifestation and and natural and organic and and necessary manifestation in a visible in in believers loving one another publicly and singing together publicly and breaking bread together publicly, this or that, right? So it's not just confession, you know, confessing in your head and that's about it. Right? But but it's it's starting there and working its way outward. And I can I can recognize that in a whole bunch of communions that I don't have outward institutional affiliation with. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

So what how do you um within a framework like that I mean I have lots of questions, but one question is how do you describe interpret or pursue Jesus's prayer for unity in John 17? Like if if we are if we are already one based on your description what is there to be I guess I I'm on I actually don't know what it what is to be answered in Jesus' prayer or or has it already been answered?

Derek Rishmawy 35:05

Like I mean what one interpretation is to say you know that there's that there's that line you know um Jesus prays that they may be one and so we should long that Jesus' prayer would be answered. Another way of looking at it is well, Jesus prays and whatever he asks of his father he gets so somehow he got it. Right? So somehow there is a somehow the somehow the father has already said yes to the Son and he has given his son a a unified church in at least one way. And I think fundamentally it works from that prior logical recognition that that Christ has bought for himself a church and every time every tribe, tongue, nation, time, place, so on so forth and is that is at least invisibly united with him. And so that exists like that exists. And that that invisible church is then made visible in time and place in history in complex, uh challenging uh ways that are yeah, less than ideal, absolutely, but I start with the assumption that actually the Lord Jesus' prayer has been answered fundamentally, right? There's a nowness to the yes of the Father, to put it that way. And we're probably still waiting on a we're still waiting on a not yes, not yet level, right? So like the Spirit has been given, we're still waiting. Like the the kingdom has come and it's still coming, right? And I think the unity has appeared and is real and is already there. And we're probably still waiting for the final revelation of what the public unity of the people of God could look like. But we are still you know on the way in Via in the middle of history, right? And that just gonna look messier. So that that's kind of the framework I operate with. And so there's a level at which I guess my my my thing is you know I don't want to be uh I don't want to have like an utterly unrealized eschatology. Like an utterly unrealized eschatology is like a whole bunch of individual believers just confessing the Lord Jesus Christ. We're part of the invisible church, but we don't have any we don't have any responsibility to join a visible church and seek any kind of connection beyond ourselves, that's that sort of thing. I don't buy that. Nevertheless, the anxiety around an overrealized eschatology of of public church unity is something that I think is good to avoid if it causes me to lose sight of other things that the Lord Jesus tells us matter for his church, such as the confession of truth and the right discipline of practice and all those sorts of things, right? So making making the visible unity work through the adulteration of doctrine or the adulteration of practice is, I think, an uh an attempt to it's like an overrealized eschatology that leads to a failure to pursue holiness and a failure to pursue like holiness of doctrine, holiness of behavior. So that kind of thing is is kind of how I I'd flesh

Catholicity And The Broken Family Analogy

Derek Rishmawy 38:07

that out.

Alastair Roberts 38:07

Does that that kind of make sense maybe take a different analogy for when we're thinking about visible visible invisible let's think about your family is invisible. You don't have them in the room with you right now but your family exists your family your immediate family your extended family it's a reality and there are times when your family is visible in various ways when you're in the room together having a meal together when you're in a situation of a family gathering Thanksgiving or something like that, your family has a visible presence. But then there are sort of situations where maybe you just don't get on with your um uncle and his side of the family and so you don't have any sort of dealings with them. And then there are certain other members of your family that you find really annoying. So you send invitations for a family get together and you exclude them from the invitation list. And there's a sense in which that's a gathering of your family but there are very notable absences and exclusions there are ways in which there are broken family relationships that may not be visible but they're lit they're very much something that's in the background of the visible gathering and it's part of the invisibility that is maybe standing over against the visible gathering and maybe criticizing and revealing some of the limitations of that. What does it take for a gathering of a denominational church to be a gathering of the church and for it to represent a manifestation of something more than just some section of some larger reality. How can it be Catholic? And I think this is some of the concern that um is behind the question of the relationship between Christ's prayer and our practice of church unity or lack thereof somehow it seems to me there needs to be some relationship between that invisible reality which has on the one hand this moral invisible character that we do not know who is joined to Christ in a living way a member of the vine a branch within the vine that's drawing upon the life of the vine and its root and then those that are about to be cut off or those that have no root within the vine and then how do we relate that to the various gatherings that manifest something of that family or that church but are clearly only part of it but can nonetheless represent something of a a coming together of the whole the wholeness of the unity that there's Catholicity to be found not just in the whole as it's invisible but also in specific gatherings we can encounter the Catholicity of the church. How do we hold those things together? I think that's where I feel some of the pinch here do you have answers to those questions? I have some of my own opinions I'll be telling I want to know well I think I think we can maybe explore some of those analogies further and think about what happens in the case of broken family relationships. There needs to be a sense that the family though broken is a family and our bonds extend beyond our immediate circles where there are functional relationships. And unless there's some way of praying for recognizing that we are part of seeking unity in the truth with and recognizing the brokenness of our current situation I don't think that we're expressing the Catholicity sometimes the Catholicity of the church must be experienced in the mode of maybe it's um the experience of Israel in the divided kingdom that you recognize you have brothers down south and your nation is unfaithful in various ways the southern nation is unfaithful in various ways you're both broken parts of something that should be a whole and the whole if you're going to be part of it you need to have some sense of that wholeness in the way that you navigate being a part of it. You can't just consolidate your identity within the part and treat that as if it were the whole your part needs to be experienced as part of a broken unity that's looking forward to a future unity and drawing back to the roots that are shared in common with other parts. And I think it's that posture and that the practices that correspond to that that allow specific churches denominational churches included to be Catholic and where that's lacking the Catholicity of the church which I think is a mark of the church is absent and we should be concerned.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Preach brother let's gang let's gang up on let's gang up on Derek I mean approach what I what I want to say about that Alistair is uh and going back to what Derek shared is I think the church has to have not just language but specifically theological language to describe the church's brokenness and divisions. And figural language drawing on Israel's history is one of the great resources there. It would be untrue and Derek I completely agree with you about I I hope trust it goes without saying that that it has to be unity in the truth. It can't be unity at the Expense of the truth. But it would be untrue, precisely with respect to God and God's election, for a member of the Northern Kingdom or the Southern Kingdom to say, we are one when you're divided. But I do not think I do not, let's say I do not share the view of church unity as beginning with a kind of invisible calling via faith of individuals who then come together to form something public. I think God brings into being a public entity called the people of God, called the church, called the first 120, followed by the 3000, followed by fill in the blank. That it begins at the communal. It begins there, of which one is a part, of which one is a member, to which one is added through baptism, so on and so forth. That that that and then that that's public from the get-go. And you know, the joke about, you know, my masters here are Jensen and Radner and Lightheart. And uh and I I think I think he's right here. And it doesn't have to, though I understand why it does in in conversation, it doesn't have to be presented as a kind of like either Calvin or the Bishop of Rome. Like these are like there are no other configurations, uh imaginative ecclesiological configurations uh here. And and we I we have to be able to foster and to um uh we have we have to be able to offer, as theologians, as like theological thinkers and writers, we have to be able to offer the church. And let me say one more thing, Derek, and then I'll I'll hand it off because this for me is very practical. I teach Bible-belt non-denombers in my classroom, 18 to 18 to 22, and none of them in a decade has ever walked into my classroom thinking that the church is divided, much less that it's a problem. That they not only have a, you know, on one hand, that that they have this innate sense that the church was founded the day before they were born, probably by their local pastor. But even when they have a more expansive sense than that, they just have no sense that there's a there there. And once I introduce them, I don't, I don't have to give them, I don't have to give them like, you know, Radner or Lightheart. Uh I just have to read the passages of the New Testament, and then I have to point them, and then just point them to within five miles in any direction of the classroom to realize for them to realize and wake up to the fact that there are people who confess the name of the Lord Jesus and who seek to follow him. And they not only, it's not as if they just don't know their names because you can't know every Christian, they don't even acknowledge their existence and they could never worship alongside them or share the Eucharist with them. And that that is a problem. I think we have to name that as a problem.

Derek Rishmawy 47:08

Yeah, I mean, okay, so the average 18-year-old being ecclesiologically aware is just a loose, uh, it's kind of a high bar, anyways. So just as a side note, we're we're all dealing with college kids here. Um second, I will say it's funny. My non-nom kids are the ones who are often like, hey, let's just do like all these, let's let's have our crew and R UF and whatever, let's all just kind of do together because we're all Christians on campus. Weirdly, I think the non-nom kids, they don't have a sense that we're divided, but they also have a sense of, hey, we're all Christians together. They often have a fairly high uh thought, like, well, you're at a church and I'm at a church. And since these, you know, doctrinal uh distinctions don't really matter that much, why can't we all just be mere Christians together, et cetera, et cetera? They actually weirdly have like a high, a fairly high sense of their unity with other kinds of Christians, because to them, those doctrinal distinctions don't matter at all. Right. So there's there's actually a there's actually a there's there's kind of a prac practical, like naive Catholicity that I think happens on the ground for a lot of people. Um so I'll just throw that out there. Um I I'll also say when it comes to unity, practically speaking, the invisibility, visibility thing, that is that's speaking partially to the fact that God from all of eternal this is doctrine of election stuff, this is doctrine of the fact that God knows who are his and he's given his given his son a particular people, uh, all that sort of thing. And the the assertion that apart from this, like that the church is not limited, the church is not bound to this or that particular historical structure that is delimited by the Pope's authority or by this bishop's authority, uh, that sort of thing. So like like the church extends, you know, as Luther and Calvin would say, the church extends into the East, even beyond the boundaries of the Roman pontiff's jurisdiction, right? And and that's that's actually a really important thing to confess in terms of embracing the Catholicity of the church, right? I want to say that the church actually extends beyond all sorts of denominational um confines, right? Uh otherwise, you are the danger is saying the visible church is the only church there isn't, therefore, anybody outside the ark, right? Anyone outside the ark that is the one that the Pope is steering, right, or that the bishop or the Metropolitan is steering is then. So I think the visible, the invisible, visible distinction and that sort of thing, which actually it's not about it's not about like an in like a like a Platonic thing that like materializes or whatever. It's talking about all those who are initially defined by their relationship and union with the Lord Jesus Christ, who's the head of the church, right? And that that that's not always immediately visible to the world or to the kind thro through the kinds of ecclesiastical structures that people put in place. So I actually think there's there's some really important Catholic reasons for affirming and beginning with reflections on the invisibility and visibility distinction. Um beyond that, concretely, um, you know, I I work as a I I I did spend last week at at my General Assembly or a week a week and a week and a half ago. Now, by the time this releases a week and a half ago. Um and I think one of the ways that you pursue Catholicity and union, I mean, I do that is by joining a church that's part of a denomination that's connected to like a few thousand other churches and meeting with people uh once a year, or like every three months or every three or four months in our presbyteries, and then once a year to a general assembly and try and conduct the business of the

Practical Steps Toward Real Unity

Derek Rishmawy 50:46

church in communion, in visible public specific communion with a whole bunch of other churches that we share, you know, uh ecclesiastical history, regional connections, um, mother-daughter relationships of this, this, this, this church planted that church, and so on and so forth. And uh, this is the group that ordained me, and so forth. And we share, we share a confession in Westminster. And then the PCA is actually a part of this thing called Napark, which is all the which is a bunch of the Reformed churches in North America, which in itself is a confession that we know that we are not the only ecclesiastical um body that is a true church or even a true Reformed church, that sort of thing. We are just we're we're the Presbyterian church in America. We're we're one of them, right? Um I I think concretely I guess what I'm saying is oftentimes engaging in the work of a particular denomination is the closest thing that a lot of a lot of people can get. It actually is a step up for a lot of people towards trying to achieve any kind of public visible unity in the world. Um and so there's oftentimes oftentimes I think a an idealist ecumenism that um looks for the denominations we have, looks at the church structures that we have, and says, not good enough, and they're not, but then kind of longs for an abstraction, longs for a historical possibility that is possible to God, but is certainly certainly not possible to human means right now, and neglects the work of like, all right, you the close thing I'm gonna get to it is to try and make the Anglican communion stronger by being a good churchman within my diocese and then my my communion. And so I'm gonna I'm gonna go at it, I'm gonna quit, I'm gonna quit worrying about so much what's happening out there in this diocese over there in this other communion entirely, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because that will that will that will that will impact or slow down our being able to come together. It's like, dude, just like have your diocese get along with the diocese next to you, right? Uh that kind of stuff is, I think, practically more within reach. Like me going to GA and talking to guys on the right wing and the left wing of whatever within the conservative domination that is the PCA and trying to bridge mutual understanding there is a very practical way of trying to pursue a visible unity that seems it's it's only divinely accomplished, but is like, I don't know, humanly pursuable. Right? So I don't know, that I guess that's like a maybe that's a de a deflationary ecumenism, okay. Like ecumenism within a denomination itself uh is is perhaps where you should start before you start thinking about bridging centuries-long divisions that you know you as Joe Joe member will will not divide. Uh that beyond just, hey, I don't know, being friendly to the Catholic or the Methodist up the street, right? Um you know. So that that's I mean how I don't know if that how that strikes you, but uh that that's those are some of the thoughts I I have there.

Different Denominations Offer Different Gifts

Alastair Roberts 54:06

One thing I wonder about is whether when we're thinking about these different denominations, that there is a sort of asymmetric division that we can often experience. The uh different types of denominations are not just the same sort of thing. Often they're representing different sorts of unity. So if you think about something like the Church of England, it's not a denomination in the classic sense, um, the relationship between the Church of England and Methodists, for instance, is one where different forms of unity are expressed on different sides of that. So on the Church of England side, there's the unity of, for instance, the parish or the national established church. In the case of the Methodists, very much this circle of ministry, this more peripatetic model of traveling and forming through circuits, uh a band of faithful people committed to mission work, and very much energizing lay um people. What we have, I think, could be maybe loosely categorized under a number of different headings. There's a sort of priestly unity to the church that can be seen in the celebration of the Eucharist together, recognition of common baptism, um, worshipping together under certain circumstances, gathering together, hearing the word together. Then there's a sort of kingly un a unity of structures, whether that's the episcopal unity of the diocese or the parish as an entity that represents a specific locality and people gathered within that. The order of the confession, if the creed is something that has its home more in worship, the confession is something that has its context more in the life of the um ecclesial body and its polity. And we might think about recognizing mutual discipline. And then we might think about another level of unity, which is a more, for want of a better word, prophetic unity, the unity of the church and a common mission. And often evangelicals have been particularly good at this sort of unity, with the para-eclesiology of evangelicals being a great source of unity between the various Protestant denominations that exist. And so you have, on the one hand, these divisions between different denominations, and yet this realm of common mission and practice and production of material, evangelical material is read across the church. It's read by Catholics, it's read by Orthodox often, it's read by people of all different Protestant stripes. And then lay mobilization, Protestants have often been at the forefront of that. A unity of lay people, not just of ministers and priests, not just of uh ecclesiological hierarchy. And so I think when we're thinking about the unity of the church, often we can maybe if we're thinking about these different denominations, these different traditions as the same sort of thing, maybe we miss the way that each can represent different strengths of charism, different forms of charism that can be put at each other's disposal. And as we find unity, it won't be one party just bowing to another, but maybe both bowing to each other and recognizing what they can give to each other. Maybe in some cases it will be giving more of a united public voice. In the case of Protestants, that's often been the found in unity with Catholics in common social cause, where Catholics have led the way with a public voice on certain matters, and Protestants in co-belligerency have found some unity there. Sometimes it's been in the catechesis of lay people, as evangelicals have produced great material for lay people, and it's read across the church and have energized lay people in different sorts of ministries. Maybe it will be an Anglican sort of unity, the emphasis upon the parish and the national church bringing people together in events such as um national celebrations, whatever it is. But there are different forms of unity and we can minister these to each other.

SPEAKER_01 58:42

Sounds like Protestant subsidiarity. Um I'd say a couple things. Um one, you know, to the to the maximally practical question of the kind of college student or young person who wants to follow Christ and they maybe want to follow Christ in a thicker way than is afforded them by the kind of DIY model afforded them by their local non-denom church. At that practical level, like at the micro level, Derek, I'm basically entirely with you. I'd love for them to join a concrete tradition. And I agree with the language of kind of leveling up in media res, in the middle of history, when and where we find ourselves. Um, we work with what we have, not with what we wish we had. For me, all of the criticisms, or at least all of the vision and theological grammar stuff is at the macro level. It's about trying to expand the um sort of theological overton window for what ecumenism and unity might mean in God's future, not eschatological future, pre-eschatological future, this worldly future for uh the church as it really is, and not, and at least trying to avoid the vulgar version of Protestant invisibility, where it really is let a thousand flowers bloom, and each individual with the secret testimony of the spirit in my private faith, and then if I so choose, then I will find like a local public expression, that kind of thing. What I really heard, what I've heard as the danger, the worry here is actually not institutionalism or even the strong arm of hierarchical authority. It's sectarianism, where some body of believers says the borders of our tribe are the borders of the saved. And that's where I am completely at one with um Derek, your sensibility or broadly the Protestant sensibility. It's probably where I am least Catholic, not in my sympathies, but in my approach and where I most follow someone like Radner, um, whose model, whose theological model, but also his lived model, is to bloom where you're planted, um, to work with what you've got, to love the people who surround you, and particularly the the communion or community that gave you the gospel. And so long as I find myself in a kind of uh on the kind of edges of the northern kingdom, you know, I I'm uh that's where I'm gonna pitch my tent. But I'm not going to pitch it, not that either of you would suggest it's, but I'm not going to pitch it in denial of the lack of unity that we could have and that I know that God wants us to have. Um, and in as much as I can, I want to work towards the kind of concrete visible unity in the truth and in the love of the gospel that I really believe that the Spirit could bring about in his wisdom in granting my own ignorance.

Final Takeaways And Listener Requests

Derek Rishmawy 1:02:04

I will say that that's a great note to end on. I think practically everybody can pray for those things. And uh as long as you as long as your as long as your longing for the church that may one day be in God's providence doesn't cause you to sit there spurning the local church that is uh uh is right in front of you and that you could be a part of and and do something at, um, okay, keep praying for for it. But um, but but as we are in history, uh work at the small, uh basic, ordinary uh ways that you can now. And and that's I think that's the that's the that's the basic way. Um with that said, uh guys, great conversation. Uh, if you've been listening to us thus far, kept all the way through, uh, thanks for uh listening to the show. Uh if you found that helpful, share it around, write and review us on iTunes, uh Spotify, the various uh formats. But for now, this has been Mere Fidelity.