Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand with David Kee Artwork

Christians Reading Classics

Christians Reading Classics is a podcast about classic books being read through a distinctly Christian lens. Hosted by author and classicist, Nadya Williams, Christians Reading Classics introduces—or should we say—re-introduces listeners to classic works that have inspired generations. Interviewing experts who know these books well, the hope is to inspire listeners and awaken their imagination to God's world through literary, theological, and even children's works that have stood the test of time. Christians Reading Classics is a Mere Orthodoxy podcast. Find out more at mereorthodoxy.com

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Christians Reading Classics

Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand with David Kee

March 26, 2026 • Mere Orthodoxy • Season 2 • Episode 8

0:00 | 59:14

Nadya Williams and David Kee discuss Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged — its origins, philosophy, and enduring relevance for American Christians. Kee, a business professor at Harding University who teaches the novel, traces Rand's objectivism, the tension between individualism and collectivism, and what a Christian engagement with her work requires.

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Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Reading from Atlas Shrugged
01:10 - Guest Introduction: David Key
02:00 - David's Background: From Geneva to Entrepreneurship to Academia
08:10 - Defining a Classic
10:56 - How David First Encountered Atlas Shrugged
13:04 - Who Was Ayn Rand?
25:03 - Teaching Atlas Shrugged to Business Students
32:27 - Individualism, Collectivism, and the Christian Worldview
39:11 - The Mystery of John Galt
44:10 - Elevating the Entrepreneur
52:35 - Why Christians in America Should Read This Book
53:25 - What Classic David Wishes He Had Written

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SPEAKER_01 0:19

Mr. Rearden, said Francisco, his voice solemnly calm. If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling, but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength. And the greater his effort, the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders. What would you tell him to do? I don't know. What could he do? What would you tell him to shrug? So wrote Ayn Rand in her last novel, Atlas Shrugged. It took Rand 12 years to write it before it was published in 1957. Since then, it has sold over 10 million copies and has become a cultural phenomenon worldwide. And yet, it is a controversial book, especially for Christians. Welcome to season two of Christians Reading Classics, a podcast from Mirror Orthodoxy. The theme for this second season is Classics American Christians Should Read in Honor of America's 250th. I am Nadia Williams, book's editor for Muir Orthodoxy, and the author of the book Christians Reading Classics, out this past fall with Sondravan Academic. Today, it is my delight and privilege to talk about Atlas Drugged with David Keith, Associate Professor of Business at Harding University. He's also a longtime family friend, so it is double delight to talk with him.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

David, thank you. Well, thanks for having me. It is a delight. I love that word.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

I want to start actually by asking you a question that is totally like off script, but can you tell us your story? Because you have an unusual story of coming to academia, but it's also an unusual story of growing up and everything else. So how about you tell a little bit of it first?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Okay. Well, I'm pretty old, so it'll take a while. Um the uh the story is simply that uh my parents were missionaries to Switzerland, Geneva, Switzerland, is where they lived. And so I grew up there. So I grew up speaking French as my first language. And my parents worked really hard to try to get me to speak English at home, but I struggled with that a little bit. And I did all my schooling there until I was 19, and then I chose to come to a Christian college in the United States, which is Harding University, where I currently speak and teach and do things and live. And uh never thought I'd be coming back here. When I came to Harding, um, my goal was to go back to France and start a radio station, a Christian radio station. It didn't happen because I met a cute girl from Chicago. And uh uh she had a job in Atlanta, so I went to Atlanta, but I didn't have a job. Um I was a mass communications major and I wanted to work in video and radio production. I got a job at CNN and um hated it, absolutely hated it. And after six weeks, I just quit. And I didn't know exactly what to do with myself. And I got a job in sales working for a food company based in Kansas City, and I really loved sales, and uh I really got it, really enjoyed it, but it wasn't the best-run company. So my father-in-law encouraged me to start my own business, and he joined me in the business, and we started a business called Classic Gourmet, and we ran that business for uh I'd say almost 20 years together as partners in the business, and it was fun, it was great. I did not know that I would enjoy so much the job of being an entrepreneur and uh ran all aspects of the business, learned so much, had great experiences. We were a company that imported pastry products from Europe and sold them to chefs all across the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and we mainly sold chocolate, so I tend to be known as the chocolate guy. And uh really enjoyed it, but then my father-in-law wanted to retire, and I couldn't buy him out anymore at that point, and so we sold the business. And uh I wasn't prepared for that. And uh I didn't, I was 45 years old, and uh I was like, what do I do with the rest of my life at this point? And I had signed some non-compete agreements, so I did some consulting for a little bit, but then I decided I'm gonna join academia, but I didn't have any credentials, I just had a bachelor's, so I went off and got my master's degree at the University of West Georgia, which is where Nadia and I met, but not during the classes on business classes, but um we uh she was she was she was teaching there at the same time, which is kind of cool. And um and I got my master's there, which was a good program, and then I decided to start a doctorate. And then as soon as I started a doctorate, which I got from France at the University of Grenoble, uh, which is a highly rated school in France, but unknown in the U.S. And uh they had a degree there that was a degree where I could continue working and not have to be there on in place. This is kind of a hybrid program. And so I got my doctorate, but in between, as I after I started my doctorate, I got hired at Harding University in Cersei, back home, I would say it that way, and uh to teach business classes. And I really have enjoyed this. Um I've now been here 13 years, and I teach economics primarily, but also entrepreneurship, strategy, ethics, pretty much whatever they throw at me uh in the business department. Uh and uh it's big classes, it's uh it's a lot of students. I usually have about 150 students a semester, and I um um but I really, really enjoy it. It's a great job. It's a little bit easier to do than entrepreneurship, uh, than running your own business, but it's um it has its challenges too. But I finished my doctorate finally in 2016, uh, and my doctorate is about asceticism in the world of entrepreneurship, and um, it was kind of a very, very narrow field, as are all doctorates. And uh, but I got published. I've published three articles, and um and I'm not really in it for the publication. I teach I'm at a teaching college, so I'm not required to to research. The focus is on the students and the teaching, and and that's what I do.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

I love this.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

That's my path.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

What a s I mean, what a story. And actually, like it listening to you tell it now, I've heard so many parts of it, but not all of it at once.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

So this is very cool. Well, in my in the process of going through this, I met Dan, Nadia's husband, and then met Nadia and loved them, love their family. And Nadia, you're an inspiration for me in terms of writing, which I'm not good at, uh, but you're an inspiration for me as as a mother and how you raise your kids and how hard you you combine your incredible knowledge with uh sharing it with the world. And I appreciate what you do.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Well, thank you. You and Paige have been such a gift to us. So the reason we're talking about Atlas Drugged is actually because you mentioned it in conversation. So earlier this fall, uh you mentioned how you teach it to your business students. So we'll get to that in a second, but first, I always start by asking my guests to define what is a classic. And it's always fun because sometimes it's a it's an uncomfortable question. So here I am asking you, a professor of business and an entrepreneur. How would you define a classic?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

It's interesting. I thought about this a little bit when you talked about classics. I probably don't have the same classics as most people, and I probably don't have the same classics as someone who teaches, you know, antiquities and stuff like that. Uh to me, a classic is uh a popular book, uh, but also a very influential um piece of writing. It doesn't have to be a novel, it doesn't have to be non-flink fiction, it could have, it could be any kind of book, but it has to have a strong influence. And you can tell influence not just by surveys, but you can tell influence by how much people talk about it and how much it's part of conversations and people quote from it, and uh how many languages it's translated into, and how many people uh will say that book made a difference in my life. Um probably it has to be a book that uh crosses cultures um in terms of people who like it, and it probably not necessarily, but but probably, and then it also needs to be a writing that is just of such high quality that it's across the board people go, that was well written. That's a good piece of literature, um, because it's it's well done and put together with high quality. I think that's that's an essential part of it in my book. Um But if you ask me what are some classics, yeah, I'll mention Atlas Shrugged, obviously, but I'll also mention um some books that most people wouldn't know because they're business books and uh that have strongly affected how I do things in business, which is completely different. So there's a book by Thomas Sowell called Basic Economics, and I think that's just a great book. Um, but it's economics, you know, it's a dismal science, as they say. And then um I would I would use a lot, mention a lot of um business books, um, but I wouldn't mention many others. You know, I'm I'm very narrow in my reach here.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And yet your overall definition is actually quite similar to what a lot of others have said on this podcast. So a book that uh enters cultural language, something that is influential, that usually a classic is something people talk about for centuries or at least decades after it has been published. So I think there are similarities here, even if you have your own particular classics based on your interests.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So so when did you first read Atlas Drugged? How did you come across it?

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Um since I was not a business major, I didn't know I was gonna be in business, I read it for the first time. It was not I didn't know, but in in high school in Switzerland, it was not a thing. Um I probably read it for the first time in 1989 when I was on a business trip and I was sitting next to a guy on the plane. We're flying to Europe, and uh he was reading the book. And I said, Tell me about this book. I'd heard of the name, I had never read it. And he goes, Oh, this is this book and the Bible are the two books that I read. I'm like, Okay, well, I read the Bible too, so I'm very interested in why you would want to read this book as well. And he told me the whole thing about it. It was his third time to read the book. It's an 1,100-page book. I mean, it's a big book, and it was his third time to read it, and he just said, It's it's helping me make decisions in my business. And um he was a business person who had his own private small enterprise, but he um he said it's influencing me in my business. And at that time, I was a new entrepreneur, and I decided, okay, I think I need to read this book. And uh so when I got to Europe, uh I went to a bookstore in Paris, forgot the name of it, but it's an English-speaking bookstore in Paris, in the um near Saint-Michel, I forgot what it's in the in the Latin quarter. Anyway, and they had a copy of it there. And I go, there you go, that's what I need. So I bought it in Paris. And I read it while I was in Europe, read it on the plane on the way back, finished it when I got home, and agreed with the guy. It was a great book. Okay. What then I've read it a couple of times since what a story. That too, you know, though it's all yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

So let's set the stage. So who is Ayn Rand and what did she believe?

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Ayn Rand um is a is a is a very interesting person. She she was born and raised till age 13 in Russia, St. Petersburg. And I think it was St. Petersburg. And her parents owned a business. I don't recall what kind of business it was, maybe a pharmacy. And when the Bolsheviks came in in 1917, they took it over. And they basically said, this is now part of the state. Um, you can't keep your uh business, and they were basically stripped of everything they had. And uh they fled to the states. And when she arrived in New York at age 13, she was just mesmerized by the bustling and activity and how things went, and the she called it the controlled chaos of New York. And it was really a controlled chaos, meaning you look at a marketplace, it it's it looks chaotic, but there's a bit of control there. And she she just loved it, and she just loved everything. American, she became American, she went to college. I can't remember where she went to college, but it was uh it was a little disappointing for her. But she um she had some views and she did some writing, and she wanted to write about her experience in Russia, and uh which became the Soviet Union. And she, her first book was called We Are the Living, which was basically retelling her story a little bit. Uh, but it's a novel. Um and then she wrote another short novel called Anthem, which is a good little story, but it it goes into the style of writing that she did, which was this little bit of this dystopian world where an anthem, the main character, had a number and was not allowed to use first person, could not use say, could not say I. It was against the rules to say I. And that kind of helped her, I think, develop this philosophy of hers, which she called later objectivism, which is the idea of the primacy of the individual. And um, and so this this person in this character in this book started saying I and got rejected by society. You know, it's your typical dystopian thing. And uh it's a great little book for people to read. And when I give people choices, they always pick Anton because it's short. But they um they end up liking it because it's it's kind of unique kind of writing. But she really wanted, as she developed her philosophy, she really wanted to get it out there. She really wanted people to hear it. She wanted a voice, and she had little some success with her writing, but she wrote a book called The Fountainhead. And that was in 1942, it was during the war. And that book was supposed to be the book that was going to tell the world what Ayn Rand believed and thought. But it was a novel about a guy who would not compromise about his own self-umage or self-purpose, and um ended up doing something illegal just to protect his own self. And it's a great story. They made a movie out of it right away. I think two years later it became it became a movie. So it was a very popular book. And the movie, I forgot the famous actor that was in it. I want to say Gregory Peck, but um, and it was a popular movie in 1944 or 45, anyway, and it was but people didn't interpret it just the way she wanted them to. She was disappointed that people didn't understand that she was trying to pass on a philosophy of life, and they just loved it for the story and thought it was a cool story and made a movie, and and it didn't, she was disappointed. It was even though the book was popular, and um, and they immediately made a movie, so that means it was a very well-liked book, but not for the reasons she wanted, and she felt she needed to write another book, and she struggled through it. Like you said, it took her 12 years to write it, and but it was she was such a perfectionist in everything she wanted to say. She wanted to include everything, and this was her Magnus Opus. I mean, this was her uh book that that that was going to basically teach her philosophy of who how she saw the world, and uh and it I think it did that. I mean, people tie Ayn Rand to the philosophy of Atlas Shrugged, and it was popular, but not as much uh in the beginning as it is today, which is interesting. Uh so when it first started selling, it sold a few hundred thousand, I would say. But like in the year 2008 or 2009 when the recession happened, it sold like 400,000 that year. And um uh it just came back um because people revered it. And um the guy who produced The Godfather was gonna make a movie out of it, but she was she wanted so much control over it that he gave up. So there was never a movie made until you know the last few years when they tried to make a movie of it. And uh I can discuss that too. But the the book was very popular, but it it didn't it made it to number three in the New York Times bestseller list, as that's as high as it went. And I think it stayed on there for maybe 22 weeks at the beginning. But it is always cited as a book that people go, that was a book that influenced me, and that made a difference, and that's why it's a classic, I think. And um the people who love Atlas Shrugged are just they're they're they're sold on her philosophy, they're sold on her uh view of the world. And uh, and and I'm not. And I make sure I tell people that there's some things about her that she was an atheist, first of all. She never believed in God. She did not have the same, her, her, her concepts of virtues weren't the same as mine. Her values differ a little bit, but yet I find them very close to Christianity. She's just missing a few things. Uh, and of course, faith is the part that's missing. She's not a woman of faith. And uh she's a she's a little bit liberal when it comes to certain uh such as promiscuity or or or different types of you know, social type of positions. Um But she's she has real strong feelings about saying the truth, honesty, integrity. Those are all things that matter greatly to her. And um, and of course, her objectivism, uh, which we can talk about some more, which comes through in the book. Um, but she wrote this book, and the the the it was Random House, I think, who published it. And it was the editors were like, this is too long. You gotta cut this out, cut this out, cut this out. And she refused. She kept refusing to cut things out, ended up being, you know, a 1,200-page book in its original form. And but people still read it. And I don't know of very many books that I'll consider classics that are that big. Um, maybe War and Peace, you know, or or some other books that are just a 1,200-page book that people would say, yes, I read that book six times, you know, or something like that. Um so that was something that that she didn't compromise on and she didn't need to. Um but in the book, there are some speeches in there that last 60 pages. You know, she she just she wanted to speak, and it was her voice speaking through the characters in her book. So it's a novel, but it's a novel that really is attempting to pass on a view of the world that was that was her objective. Her objective was not to write a novel that everybody loved the story. Her objective was to write a novel that everybody decided, well, this is the way I'm gonna live, um, because I I so appreciate her views. So that was her objective. And she didn't write a novel after that, like you said. She wrote a lot of other books that were um nonfiction kind of books that kind of wanted to refine things. But she didn't write another novel after that. And I think she died in 1982. So this is her book. This is it. The Fountainhead was very popular, and a lot of people like to read it. But Alice shrugged is it about Ayn Rand and her book and her life story.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

You know, it's striking to think as you were talking, I'm thinking, like, this is the power of fiction, that there are things that you can say in fiction that are going to come across much more powerfully than in nonfiction. And so, like with Ayn Rand, I read We the Living and I read Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. I've never read her nonfiction. And I I couldn't even name like a book title.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

So as you were saying, Well, the controversial one was called The Virtue of Selfishness.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

That was that was one of her books that um was a little bit controversial, and she appeared on Donahue in the 1970s, and he asked her about that. Um she wrote a couple of other books. One one has the name Capitalism in it. Um I have them on my shelf back there. Um but did Yeah, those are the two big ones.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

But did people read them?

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Or at least as many people? Oh no. See? No, none of them were popular. The novels. So you're right. The novel, see, the novel adds a story to it, it adds characters, it adds something that's compelling. A novel is harder to put down. Yeah, you want to know what happens. And so I remember when I was reading the book for the first time, I probably at one point, I had an 11-hour flight coming back, and I read the book the whole time. 11 hours straight. I couldn't put it down. Yeah. So I know it has that kind of a, and that's the novel side, I would think, that that keeps you in.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

And she's a really good writer. So just like you, I don't agree with what she's proposing, much of it. But her writing is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 24:09

Oh, yeah. When she describes people, her her people, her descriptions of people, uh are such a nice combination of visual. Um she describes them visually, but then she describes what the visual means. So she'll say, the lady was wearing a red dress uh which convey power, you know, that kind of combination of visual and what does it mean. And that's really enthralling for me. Um and you're right, the writing's good. And I'm not a specialist in writing at all, but I know if I can't put a book down, it's good writing.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Well, and I think that's the point with um a lot of the popular books that become popular that become New York Times bestsellers, uh, like The Fountainhead, the idea is it's really enthralling. And it's striking because like The Fountainhead is a book about architecture.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

And yet it is also it's it likewise I found it difficult to put down once I started.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah. Well I agree.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

So let's get into Atlas Straud. You teach this 1200-page novel to undergraduates in business, not literature.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

I teach it to two different classes. Um my to my macroeconomics students, it's a it's a it's a menu of books, so they can pick this. But they get uh more extra credit points for picking this book. In my advanced entrepreneurship class, it's required reading. And um and they struggle to finish the book in a semester, some of them.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

So, how do you introduce this book to them, like going into it?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

I start with the entrepreneur, and because that's kind of what I teach, and I go, there the the this is the ultimate storybook about entrepreneurs. And what kind of people are they, and what kind of struggles do they have? And we study entrepreneurs usually as small business owners, but this is a story of entrepreneurs who are big, successful business owners. But the question is, how important is the entrepreneur? So um I convey the concept of the entrepreneur as a hero, and that's my that's my overall perspective. The entrepreneur is a hero. Why would I say the entrepreneur is a hero? Well, I could use economics information to share why the entrepreneur is seen as a hero. You know, the entrepreneurs hire more people than anybody else, they give people jobs. Entrepreneurs create value across the board and and and it changes the world. And entrepreneurs are the ones who are responsible for all the comfort and luxuries that we have today. It comes from entrepreneurs. They're heroes in that sense. But they're also heroes in a philosophical sense. And um, why are they heroic? What is it about them that makes them want to do what they do and how do they manage the challenges they face? So that's how I introduce it. And I say there's a book that you're gonna read that is uh very compelling about how valuable the entrepreneur is. And it's in the title of the book. You know, the original title of the book was called The Strike, and the Random House people made her change it. Um because it wasn't a book about labor, it was a book about entrepreneurs. So they changed it from the line you read, um, where Francisco Danconia tells Hank Reardon that Atlas shrugged. And the idea being that the world rests on the shoulders of these entrepreneurs. And if we don't have entrepreneurs, the world collapses. So that's why it's a dystopian novel. It's about a world collapsing. And um, but it's collapsing on purpose because the entrepreneurs have given up, they've shrugged. And what would cause entrepreneurs to quit? And that's a subject that in entrepreneurship classes they rarely tackle. Why do entrepreneurs give up? And and what causes them to give up? And this book is a great example of why some entrepreneurs give up and some hang on and choose not to give up, and what drives them. And uh, and therefore the book is uh is telling the story of entrepreneurs and different types of entrepreneurs. There's the good ones and the bad ones. I mean, there are villains in this book, and we always like good villains, and there's a bunch of them. But there's also the heroes in the book, and it's not a coincidence that the hero in this book is a woman. Uh, that's Ayn Rand. She she was an egalitarian across the board on everything. And um she she wanted a woman to be portrayed as the strongest entrepreneur in the story, and um with her weaknesses, but still um a very strong character, Dagny Taggart, um, as an entrepreneur. There are other entrepreneurs who basically, you know, feed off the system and who what we call today um cronyists. You know, the the term crony capitalism, we really should take the capitalism off. It's just cronyism. Cronyism is where you seek favors from those in power to help you get them get ahead. You know, you get a contract that you didn't have to bid on from the government because you know somebody who knows somebody. That's cronyism. Uh special favors given to you. Um so what you do is you spend your whole time just getting to become friends with people in power in order to get a special break over everybody else. Entrepreneurs who have um right good values don't seek that. They want to earn what they have. And uh they want to be clean of any of that. And so those two are contrasted in the book of those two different types of entrepreneurs. And then, of course, she spends a lot of time in the book talking about uh how government tends to be anti-entrepreneur, how the government tends to prevent entrepreneurs from succeeding, um, because they seek control and they don't have an appreciation for what the entrepreneurs contribute, and therefore they think they can do what the entrepreneurs do and they can't. They think that um they can control and and basically they seek they seek to get to get something out of it from what the entrepreneurs do, and the entrepreneurs are in it for themselves, and they get scolded for not being in it for the collective. And that's where the individualism versus collectivism is just in your face through the whole book. Collectivism versus individualism, and she she's a strong individualist, and um and that's that's reflected through pretty much every incident that happens. Are you in it for yourself or are you in it for the collective? Um so you asked me what I do before I introduce the book. I do a whole study on the difference between individualism and collectivism. And we use the Hofstadt cultural dimensions to talk about how across the world, some worlds are more collective, some more that some are more individualistic. And when she came to America, she saw the highest level of individualism of any country. And you know, Australia is the only country that comes kind of close to the U.S. in terms of individualism. And so she she thinks that's the way to do, that's the way to be, and that's part of her philosophy. So I spend time talking about that. And I asked them to reflect on that as they see evidence of that clash between those two cultural dimensions. And they have to write about that in different assignments. And there's three parts to the book. So I always break up the study in three parts because each part is very distinct in what it tries to tell us, and it makes that it makes it kind of easy for a semester. So by week four we're finished with part one, by week eight, we're done with part two, by week twelve, we're done with part three. And um and that gives that keeps the students on pace.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

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SPEAKER_00 33:16

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SPEAKER_01 34:12

I have to ask, so the individualism here, it's so on the one hand, for Ayn Rand, this was obviously something totally like atheistic. But also in American evangelicalism, we are probably some of the most individualistic in our emphasis on individual conversion. And you teach at an evangelical university. So how do your do your students catch that? How do you talk to them about this?

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Well, one thing that I do in all my classes, I say, okay, we're talking about this subject. What is the Christian worldview? And I underline how the Christian worldview starts with the individual and moves to the collective. And so we always have this discussion about listen, if you're gonna go to heaven, it's gonna be on you. It's not gonna be on the collective. Your parents aren't gonna get you to heaven. You're you're not gonna you're not gonna be reunited with God unless it's on a one-on-one basis. You make that decision as an individual. And therefore, your faith is based on, and you you you live your life is based on how well you as an individual live your life. How other people live their lives is has an effect on you, but it's immaterial when it comes to your relationship with God. So we talk about the vertical versus the horizontal, and the students see a little, and I use Christian, I used a lot of scripture verses to talk about how we are accountable to ourselves and how we are that we need to be um uh responsible in terms of our own salvation, and uh and that that's the individual side of our Christian faith. Uh but then I always make sure that we get into the collective side of our faith, which is the church, and how we care for one another within the church. Yes, I'm not guaranteeing that the people I go to church with are going to go to heaven. That's between them and God. But we together can help each other make it, and that's why there's a church. And the church is the body of Christ, and therefore uh we are part of the body which makes us into this collective where we help each other out. And the discussion always ends up with its controversial side, which brings in Ayn Rand, which is do you sacrifice the individual for the collective? Which is which has been, you know, which which has been talked about for years. You know, this is this isn't a very important subject. Do you sacrifice the individual for the collective? Karl Marx was big on that. And um many, many philosophers have handled that discussion. At what point do you sacrifice the individual for the collective? And what does that look like in the Christian faith? And then I quote Ayn Rand a few times to talk about how um she she uses the word altruism in a very negative sense. Altruism, but the way she defines it, I disagree with. She uses altruism as sacrificing self for others and um at the expense of self. And I don't see altruism as the expense of self. I see it as part of my duty of following God's commands. It's an extension of myself, but not a sacrifice of myself. Because I'm, you know, when Jesus says, Well, benefited is it to gain the whole world, but yet lose your soul, he's saying, You're, hey, you you gotta take care of your relationship with God. And trying to gain the world, and at the process, give up yourself, meaning giving up your relationship with God in order to gain the world, that's that's doomsday. And so I underline how she means from an atheistic point of view, what she means is the individual reigns supreme. Um, but as a Christian, we have to get our individual straight. We got to get that right. But then we have to extend an arm, and then we call that altruism. But she she thinks you're sacrificing self when you're being altruistic. And I go, that's not the case. I think it's an extension of our relationship with God that we reach out to others. And she thought that that means you have to give up yourself, and um and and that's where there's a discrepancy in my view on that big subject, individualism versus collectivism. You know, there's a individualism gets knocked a lot, um, but it's I use the word individualistic and individuality rather than the word individualism, because to me, an ism means an ideology. And I think it individualism is not really an ideology, it's it's more of a relationship, a practice. And for Christians, it's how we relate to God. And I need a vertical relationship with God, and therefore that's important. And then when Jesus says, love your neighbor as yourself, there's that understanding that you love yourself. So when Ayn Rand uses the word selfishness, I think she doesn't, it's because she's a Russian lady, she probably doesn't use the word right. I think she means self-love when she uses the word selfishness. Because I think selfishness is usually at the expense of others. Um, she doesn't think of it that way. She says you can be selfish and it's virtuous, and that's why she wrote a book, even called The Virtue of Selfishness, in a sense that, yes, the virtue of self-love, yes, I agree with that. And if I'm gonna love my neighbor, I gotta love myself. And Jesus understood that. So I gotta love myself. And uh that's what the Fountainhead was about, that's what Atlas Shrug was about. The love of yourself and the lack of compromise in who you are and what you think your um your goals in life are about. Um I think that's kind of all we talk about, because I want them to discover a lot of this themselves when they read the book. And um so I don't want to prep them too much when they read the book, because I want them to discover things on their own. I don't want to guide them too much. Um and they struggle through the first hundred pages because it's uh it tends to be a little bit repetitive or a little bit slow at the start. But then once they hit page 120 or 150, they're they're they're no problem finishing the book. No problem.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah. And the way her writing is set up, um, the way she structures the story, she really does um lead you to discover things along the way. Uh there's a bit of a mystery vibe, in fact, going on in this book. There's this question people keep repeating in this dystopian society: who is John Galt? So what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Well, is John Galt. Well, there's two things. What's the meaning of the question? And then what is the answer to the question? The meaning of the question is to my students, I go, it's it's used in it's used in the book as you would say, whatever. It's that sense of futility that there, hey, it's how it is, I can't change it. Who is John Galt? That's kind of how they use that question. That sense of of almost defeatist kind of thinking, which is, hey, can't fix it, can't do anything about it, just live with it. And uh it's kind of that that shrug. See, that's where the shrug is. Who is John Galt is a verbal version of the physical shrug. And that's how she always does things. She has this physical description, which is the shrug, and then the verbal, which is who is John Galt. And so the students get when I say, just say whenever, if you say whatever, you're saying who is John Galt. They get that, because they say whatever all the time. So um that helps them understand. Now the answer to the question is John Galt is the John Galt is the Superman. John Galt is the ultimate uh entrepreneur slash man who's honest to himself, who follows this philosophy of no compromise, honesty, integrity, uh, all these things that are her values that sh John Galt is that is the person. That's it. And then, of course, in the story, the the heroine falls in love with him at the end after she meets him. Um but he's not even introduced into the book until halfway through. Um, and so uh we don't know who he is for most of the book. That's why it's a bit of a mystery. She's trying to find out who John Galt is, and that's kind of the path we follow in the book. Dagny Taggart, the heroine, is trying to find out who this John Galt is, but she can't because she doesn't know how. And so in the process, she tries to find out where all these people who disappeared went. So the storyline is entrepreneurs decided to give up, shrugged, and they disappeared and they're gone. And these are people who worked with her, and people who are good friends of hers. All high-achieving producers, right? These these people who created value for society, they're starting to disappear. And there's that mystery too. So the mystery is who is John Galt, but also it's tied to the mystery, the second mystery, which is where did all these people go? Why are these people leaving? Why what's what's with all these disappearances? And uh that's the other big mystery that ties us into the book where we're trying to discover it with her. And uh and I think that makes a very enjoyable reading from that standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

It does. And the initial, at the initial um kind of Hundreds some pages, it's not even clear that John Gault is real. It just seems to be this like cultural expression, just like when we say whatever.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

So That's exactly right. It's you don't even know it's a person for a long time. And she doesn't either, the heroine. You know, she doesn't know it's a person until she goes, There's actually a real John Gault. And that's like 400 pages in, um, until you realize that it's a real person. And that's tied to the third mystery, which is uh she discovers with Hank Reardon, who's the other secondary hero uh hero in the story, that there's this machine that was created by somebody that creates energy through atmospheric statistic atmospheric static electricity. And it's just incredible, revolutionary kind of machine that creates energy out of nothing. And she discovers the machine, but she wants to know who created this machine. And that's the third mystery. They are on a search to find out who created this machine. And a bit of a spoiler alert, John Galt is the one who created the machine. And therefore, um that ties it all together. So it answers these three mysteries come together when she meets John Galt. And it answers a question, who is John Galt? And answers the question of why these people are disappearing, and answers the question, who created this machine? And so she brings it all together in part three. Um, and uh that's the that that get that gets you there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

So she has this concern that modern society or modern America, or really, I guess, the entire world, doesn't value genius, and especially doesn't value entrepreneurial genius.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Yes. Um I don't know if I'd use the word genius.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

Um I mean John Galt is a genius.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

I mean, John Galt was a genius, but what she does is she keeps trains running. That's her job.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yeah, so that's Dagny's.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

To keep trains running and on time. And Dagny's Dagny's work. And and that's not that doesn't take genius, that takes good management skills. And um and she is a good manager, and she deals with challenges face on and she doesn't compromise and all those things. Um but yes, the world doesn't appreciate. In fact, Ayn Rand repeatedly through her life just said, people elevate the wrong people. We should be elevating these entrepreneurs. And um and when we refer to the entrepreneur as a hero, we we think through things. You know, we have to we have to go, well, wait a minute, how did this happen? How did we get here? And then who made sure we got this? For example, I use the example in class of uh of air conditioning. And I go, I I'm a big fan of air conditioning. I love air conditioning, and it's something that just makes my life so much better. I don't know how people lived without it, you know, and I go and I but I got asked the question, go a little bit further. How did we get air conditioning? And who created this? Um, who had the tech developed the technology for this? And there's a guy named William Carrier. And I go, Carrier. See, we don't talk about carrier, nobody refers to carrier, it's a brand of air conditioners, but it's he's the guy who invented the air conditioner. And I go, yet in society nobody knows who he is because we haven't elevated the entrepreneur. We take the entrepreneur for granted who brought, and it's almost like you get a gift at Christmas, but you don't even remember who gave it to you. The idea that we don't appreciate the people who have done things to make our life great, and those people tend to be entrepreneurs. When it comes to our comfort, our standard of living, when it comes to our prosperity, when it comes to all these economic values, entrepreneurs are the ones who brought it to us. We should go one step further and say, who was this person? And that's what she does in the book. Her description of these entrepreneurs is so that people can say, these are the people who make things work. So when you get on the train and you're able to ride from one place to another, how did this happen? Well, Dagney Taggart made it happen. She's the one behind it. Actually, her it was her grandfather's train company that she took over. And that's that's what the message that Ayn Rand was trying to say. Listen, you need to learn to know who these people are who make our life better, and don't take things for granted. And the people who take those for granted even sometimes go a step further and make their lives more difficult. And that's usually where government comes in, in her case. You know, the government would pass a regulation of some kind, and the entrepreneur is a little stifled. The entrepreneurs are limited in what they can do. And uh, and it happens over and over in the book, where the government keeps adding these new laws that make it more difficult for entrepreneurs to succeed, and so they quit and they disappear. What happens to the world when all the entrepreneurs disappear? Her the world that Ayn Rand describes without the entrepreneurs is a is is this dystopian, non-functioning world where everybody everything falls apart. Um the best example of that is at one point Dagney fills up her car with gas, and she's paying $42 a gallon for gas to fill up her car. And then we go, this was in 1957 when it was 42 cents a gallon, right? So the people reading that in 1957 go, what kind of world is it where we pay $42 a gallon for gas? Who are the people who make sure that it stays at 42 cents? Or who are the people who made it $42? And those are the enemies of the entrepreneur, the ones who put berries in the way that basically require you to raise the price because you can't get it done without going through all these crazy amounts of steps to make it happen. And I really work hard to prepare my entrepreneur students that you're gonna face a lot of bureaucracy. You're gonna face a lot of people trying to put a stick in your in your spokes. And um, and and you're gonna learn how to combat that. You gotta learn how to get around that. Uh and don't quit when that happens, which is with the storyline of Atlas Shrugged. Um, and so elevating the entrepreneur uh is is the key to this story because they're the ones who make a difference and they're underappreciated. And they are a little frustrated that they're not appreciated. But they still go about their work every day to create value for society by trying to seek out their self-interest. At one point, Hank Rearden tells his family, you know, they say, You're just in it for the money. And he goes, Of course I am. I'm in it for the money. And they go, Well, you shouldn't say that. Even in today's society, no one should say that. You don't say I'm in business to make money, as much money for myself as I can. But he said it because he's honest to himself. You know, he's he's practicing that that's that self-respect. And they go, Well, you can't say that. But in the process, it shows that by him being self-interested, he's taking care of everybody. He's taking care of his family, he's taking care of his employees, he's taking care of this medal that he created in the story, this revolutionary medal that makes things cheaper and better and faster. Um, he's contributing big time, even though he doesn't say my goal is to help society. He's saying my goal is to just self-interest. Or as she would say, selfishness.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

Yeah. But also as Christians, like this is coming through as you're talking about this now. Um, there is something really um also very Christian in how we think about this. If you're helping society, um like this does get into the realm of ministry also.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

Mm-hmm. Well, but you know the people who struggle to help in ministry are the people who struggle at with themselves. You know, if you have a lot of internal issues, you have a you you don't have self-love. Let me just say it that way. If you don't have self-love, um, you're not gonna be a good minister. Because you you're you're you you've got to get yourself together so that when you minister to others, you can send the message, and the message isn't about you, the message is about Christ. And the people who struggle with self-image, self-esteem, all these appreciation for who they are and understanding and respecting who they are. The people who struggle with that are people who struggle in ministry too. And so, Ayn Rand, if she were a Christian, she wasn't, if she were a Christian, she said, get yourself straight first. And my answer to that, as a Christian, I can't get myself straight. Only Christ can get me straight. And therefore, I'm gonna have to go with my imperfections. I'm gonna have to go through this ministry without having every duck in a row and have everything having my life together. Because it's not ever gonna be together, because I'm a sinful human being. Only through Christ can I do that. And so there's a disagreement I have with Ayn Rand. And um, and it's and if she were a Christian, I could convince her, I think. Probably. Probably. Um, because our job is to serve others. Uh, and if I serve myself only, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. So even if myself is not in great shape, I have to go ahead and serve anyway. Because sometimes by serving others, I build up myself. And it's because Christ is being shared. Um, and so I don't know how to explain that any differently. That gets complex too, I think, a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

I think that's lovely. And I think this explains why this particular novel is worth reading for Christians in America right now. The year of America's 250th.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

That's Yeah, it is. And it and and by the way, Ayn Rand was unbelievably patriotic. She wrote these books to protect America. She's she saw the the imprint of socialism coming into America. And she's like, guys, we can't do that. That's it reminds me of Bolshevism. And uh we can't go back to that. And we we gotta be careful. Um and uh she was trying to send a message to save America, the America she loved. She was very patriotic, and uh her goal in writing all this was really to help her country that she uh really loved.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Well, I want to conclude with our usual question, a final question. Okay. What is a classic book, whether American or any other, that you wish you had written, and why?

SPEAKER_02 55:23

I wish I had written. See, I'm not a great writer, so uh But you can dream here. Yeah, I can. Um a book I wish I had written, because I think it's a classic, is Crime and Punishment, Dostoevsky. I think that that is a book I'm like, this is awesome. This is fantastic. And I remember even reading it thinking, I I wish I'd thought of this. And uh I wish I'd been able to put this down on words, in words. Uh as a classic, classic literature, Russian literature. Um however, uh the most of the books that I wish I'd written were some of the more practical books that we use in business, you know. So there's some books that are just uh just fantastic business books that I go, man, I wish I'd written that. Um and uh there's there's just uh there's just a slew of them. Um and uh some of the authors are not known as being great literary people. Zig Ziggler, for example, or Tom Peters, or Ogmendino, or or Ken Blanchard, all these people that are business writers, aren't known as being highly literate literature people, but I mean, I wish I'd written their books. And by the way, their books sell really well because business people tend to read. Interesting. Uh the best business people, they read a lot. But they're not really interested in standard literature. They're interested in literature that talks about what they do every day. And that's something I wish I had published. But really, it's a not it's an unfair question because I haven't. Um I'm I I I would like to translate my dissertation into a book, which is probably what most doctorate people tend to do. Um but my book is about asceticism, and I don't think there's a person in the world interested in asceticism. Probably five people. So I don't think it'd be a book that would be interesting to people. And I'm not a fantastic writer, so I don't think I can do that. But maybe one day, maybe with your help, Nadia, I'll I'll be able to write a book about asceticism. Um and um because I think there's a need for that in our world. We live in a highly materialistic world, and uh we need to live as ascetics, because I think God calls us to live as ascetics. But um nobody even knows how to spell the word, you know, so it's it's so I don't know if I'm ever gonna have an audience, but I would want my book to be unique, and I guess it'd be unique in that sense, but um you need readers to make a book work.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

As you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Well, and Ayn Rand certainly had readers.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

She did, and she's more popular today than she was when she the book came out. There's there's uh there's two there's two groups of people that are promoting Ayn Rand today, the Atlas Society and the Ayn Rand Institute. And if anyone is interested in reading their books and doesn't want to spend the money, you just contact them and they'll send you the book for free. They have a whole bunch of donors who believe in what they're doing. So my students don't have to pay for their book. Because I call the Ayn Rand Society, no, the Atlas Society, and I say, send me 25 copies of Atlas Shrugged and they do it. And my students don't even have to pay for the book. So there's there's her legacy continues on because of those those two different institutes who promote her her objectivism, but also promote her books.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

Well, David, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

Thank you, Nadia. This has been fun. I can talk about it for much longer, so um, but I know we have time restraints.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Thank you.