The Midnight Debrief
Midnight Debrief is a late-night dive into horror, sci-fi, conspiracies, and the unexplained. We figure out what’s real… and what probably isn’t.
The Midnight Debrief
Men In Black: Agents In The Shadows
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The Men in Black have become pop culture icons thanks to Hollywood, but the real stories behind the legend are far stranger. In this episode of Midnight Debrief, Kevin and Karl explore the origins of the Men in Black phenomenon, from the mysterious claims of Albert Bender to the chilling Herbert Hopkins encounter and the bizarre theories of paranormal researcher John Keel.
Were the Men in Black secret government agents, alien enforcers, psychological phenomena, or something we still don't understand? Join us as we separate fact from folklore and examine one of the most enduring mysteries in UFO history.
The next episode of Midnight Debris is brought to you by Lux Art Agency, located in the heart of downtown Austin, Texas. Life's Art is a premier creative production and talent agency specializing in luxury events, high-fashioned runway showcases, and connecting exceptional brands with curated creative talent. And now, welcome to Midnight Debris, the show where we explore the unexplained, uncover hidden truths, and dive deep into the mysteries shaping our world. If you enjoy the show, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow us on all platforms so you never miss an episode. And now, here are your hosts, Kevin Stone and Carl Morkunas.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back to the Midnight Deep Reef, Carl. How are you? I'm great, Kevin. How are you doing? Doing good. I think uh there's a lot of alien talk going around. That was our last episode. And uh actually we went and saw Disclosure Day, Steven Spielberg movie, and that was an adventure of itself. It was truly an adventure. Yeah. What are your thoughts about Disclosure Day? Um, well, going into it, I had pretty high expectations. And um when I left, I was a little disappointed, not gonna lie. And it wasn't a bad movie. I think the cinematography was great, I think the acting was pretty decent. There was something about the script that writing that just didn't really hit home for me, and a lot of it was just stuff we already knew, and you gotta sit through two and a half hours to get to the good stuff.
SPEAKER_01What you know what I mean? Exactly. I I couldn't agree more. I think that the cinematography, all top-notch, Spielberg-esque, definitely great A, but something happened with the script. Yeah, I felt like it was a little corny.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's almost like um someone came in and said, maybe the production company or whoever was distributing it, um, I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's almost like they wanted it a certain way to reach a certain um, you know, audience, right? And it's it just feels like an industry plant. It just feels like it's there and quick way to get everybody to come into the movie.
SPEAKER_01I felt so ripped off, actually, that I said, I'm gonna take home this big bucket of dripping popcorn. That was weird.
SPEAKER_03Not gonna lie. Yeah. So this movie theater, what is it called? CMX? CMX Scene Beastro. Okay. So for my Texas friends back back in Texas, we have the Alamo Draft House, and of course, you get the like bar set up in front of you. Someone comes and takes your order, you order drinks and food and stuff. Um, this one, CMX was similar, just not as nice, I guess. But their food is pretty good. And Carl over here, he's like, hey, you know, I got a great idea. I'm gonna order a seven-gallon bucket of popcorn and I'm gonna eat it. Carl, tell me tell me what happened after that. Like, what was going through your mind?
SPEAKER_01Well, usually they don't put enough butter on the popcorn. Sure. And I thought, well, I'll order extra butter. But literally it was drenched in butter, and it was delicious. It was it was truffle. Oh, I didn't know. Like truffle parmesan butter. Okay. Yeah, so it was really good. But yeah, I I thought, well, I want to take this popcorn home with me, and I tried to put it in the trunk, and I had like Well, let's back up for a second.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So let's after a few libations, you decide, and we're we're walking out of the movie, and we're a little disappointed, and we're going to the car, and the the trunk pops open, and you know, I don't know what your next move is gonna be, but you have the big gallon of popcorn in your hand, and you say, I think I'm gonna put this in the trunk of my car to bring home. Yes. So why do you think that was a good idea, Carl?
SPEAKER_01Well, why was it a a bad idea, do you mean? Well, at the time, why did you think it was a good idea to get it? Okay, yeah, fair enough. No, I I thought at the time that I was gonna take this delicious popcorn home with me and enjoy it at home, but then I realized that I was gonna get butter all over the the trunk of my beautiful car. Yeah. And that's probably a bad idea.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so what happened after that when you decided not to put it in the trunk of your car? You made it over to a bunch of bushes. And I left it by a fire hydrant. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And wiped your hands off on the bushes or no, I I had some paper towels with me from the movie theater.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think ironically, your situation describes uh the movie. Ironically, it was a little too buttery for me. Uh you know, it didn't leave me full and satisfied. So But I mean, for people that aren't really into sci-fi or alien movies, um, you know, anyone that's not really up on this whole disclosure thing that's going on lately, I think it's an okay watch. It's like on a scale one to ten, it's like a five, maybe.
SPEAKER_01I mean, there were there were some good, there was definitely some good parts to it. The the train scene, which everyone is familiar with from the trailer, right, was uh amazing. That was uh brilliantly choreographed uh with the special effects and the acting and whatnot, that was really believable. Yeah, but um, yeah, just kind of a letdown. But um this leads us into uh what we're talking about next now is the Men in Black, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the Men in Black episode. So we're not necessarily talking about the movie. I mean, we kind of are, but kind of not. So, you know, if you picture you're seeing an a UFO, it's it's not a lie, and it's not a drone. I mean, you see something that you for sure think is real, maybe you tell some of your friends, maybe you report it, and then the next thing you know, there's a black sedan showing up at your house. There's two men that come out in black suits, black ties, and maybe no identification, they come out to the door and they're questioning you automatically. Um, somehow they already know everything.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03So that's kind of what we're talking about. It's one of the most endearing, um, and enduring, I guess, um, UFO mysteries in pop culture, if you will, and that's that's Men in Black.
SPEAKER_01Right. Immediately I think of the iconic film from 1997 with Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones. Sure.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. So Will Smith, Tommy Lee Jones, you got the neuralizer in there, um, obviously talking aliens, and for a lot of people growing up in the 90s, you and I included, that movie definitely defined alien culture. It was everywhere, and honestly made the Men in Black cool. And that's not actually where the story started.
SPEAKER_01Not even close. The real Men in Black legend existed decades before the movie. The earliest stories go back to the late 1940s and early 1950s during the first major UFO craze in America. Instead of heroes protecting Earth, witnesses describe mysterious men in black suits showing up after UFO sightings. And unlike the movie, these guys weren't funny, they were intimidating. Some witnesses even claim they weren't entirely human.
SPEAKER_03Which is a huge difference, because the Men in Black movie, I mean, they erase memories, they save the world, and you know, they basically threaten witnesses into silence.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Many researchers traced the popularity, the legend, to Gray Barker's 1956 book, They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers. That book helped spread the idea that UFO witnesses were being visited by strange men, warning them not to talk. And from there, the mythology exploded.
SPEAKER_03So do you think Hollywood kind of made people more interested in UFO as an aliens, or do you think I don't know if it turned into maybe from a creepy legend into a joke, sort of?
SPEAKER_01You know, that's a great question. Um I think it did spark some interest um in UFOs and uh who these men in black could actually be, but it was an action comedy, right? So was it really taken that serious? Probably not by most people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think there were comic books and there was things certainly before the actual movie, and it made light of a lot of these alien type encounters or situations. And I mean, to a degree, it was pretty creepy anyway. So and speaking of creepy, uh, let's get into what might be the most strangest men in black encounter reported. And of course, we're talking about Herbert Hopkins. So had you heard of him before? Um I had not, no. Okay. So take it back a little bit, the year is 1976. A doctor named Herbert Hopkins is helping investigate an alleged UFO abduction case in Maine. One evening he receives a phone call. A man asks if he can stop by. Hopkins agrees, but then seconds later, like immediately, there's a knock at the door, not minutes, seconds. So right away.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's already a red flag, right? I mean, if somebody's at my door, seconds after calling, I'm not answering. Okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Hopkins opens the door, he sees a man in black. This person has extremely pale skin, no eyebrows, uh, bright red lips. Hopkins later said the visitor actually looked human. And I mean, not completely human, but the visitor asked him to remove a coin from his pocket. So actually, Hopkins places the coin in his hand, the visitor stares at it, and according to Hopkins, the coin vanishes. Then the warning comes destroyer UFO research, stop investigating, and after the visitor leaves.
SPEAKER_01That's the part I can't get past right there, though. And even if you don't believe the story, why invent something that bizarre? Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and so that's exactly why this case has survived. Um believers say nobody would make that up, so I agree 100% with you, but most skeptics say it's so bizarre, and that's exactly why it is made up. So for you, what's the most convincing part?
SPEAKER_01Um well, out of out of that, you know, geez, that that description he gives of the men in black, I mean that's so creepy and weird. Yeah. And why why make up such an elaborate story and ruin your credibility? I mean, that's that's really bizarre and frankly, like disturbing. You know, it's it's someone that's not exactly human, not exactly an alien, something in between.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's like the great unknown, right?
SPEAKER_03Exactly. And the flip side to that, just playing devil's advocate, is you know, maybe some of Hopkins research, people were saying, no, this can't be real, blah, blah, blah. Maybe he made it up to get some more attention, credibility. I don't know for sure. Possibly. You know, there's a couple different couple different theories behind that, maybe. Um, is there is there at least convincing part for you where you're just like, no, this definitely didn't happen, or it's completely made up? Like not really.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I'm the person that tends to believe in um conspiracy theories and give if give credence to these stories. And um I know that you're more of a skeptic than I am on on most things, but um, I believe his story. Yeah, I really do.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think there's evidence and data that needs to back up what we're talking about. I don't mean just you and I, but in general speaking, there's something that needs to say, okay, this definitely did or this definitely didn't, at least for credibility purposes. Nowadays, it's you can start your own news channel, really, and make up whatever the heck you want. And people will buy into it and post it, and we talk about misinformation and it spreads like wildfire. It's crazy. So um, you know, for me personally, I don't think he necessarily made it up. Um, again, I'm just more of an evidence person, but it's very plausible.
SPEAKER_01You know, now today you compare it to today's times with with AI and everyone has uh a camera on their phone and you can record anything. CGI can be used in apps. I mean, you what what can you really believe these days? But what year was this again, Kevin, that this happened? 76, I think. Yeah. So to me, it's more convincing. I don't I don't think it's it's a prank at all. I really think that he had a genuine story to tell, and I'm a believer. But the Hopkins encounter wasn't where all this started. To understand the Men in Black, we have to go back to the man who basically created the legend. Albert Bender.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01So Albert Bender is arguably the most important figure in the men in black history. In 1952, he founded the International Flying Saucer Bureau. At the time, it was one of the largest UFO organizations in America. Thousands of members, a successful newsletter, growing influence. Then in 1953, he suddenly shuts everything down. No warning, no explanation.
SPEAKER_03Which is pretty random if you're doing something successful, if you're uh interested in it, if you have a passion about it, nobody just walks away without a reason, right?
SPEAKER_01Precisely. Eventually, Bender claimed he had discovered the truth about UFOs. Uh before he could reveal it, three mysterious men dressed in black visited him. According to Bender, they warned him to stop investigating. And he did immediately. Okay.
SPEAKER_03So here's what fascinates me. It if he made it all up, just hypothetically, why kill the organization? Why not just keep riding the popularity and you know continue to grow?
SPEAKER_01That's one reason some people think he genuinely believed something happened. The problem is the story got stranger over time. In 1962, he released a book called Flying Saucers and Three Men. Now we're talking telepathy, mysterious entities, hidden knowledge. Even some UFO researchers thought he had gone too far.
SPEAKER_03So do you think Bender actually experienced something? Or I mean, did he accidentally create the Men in Black myths?
SPEAKER_01I think he really experienced something there. Um I mean, for him to just shut down everything and claim that he found out the truth about UFOs is pretty genuine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And regardless of whether he was right or wrong, the modern Men in Black um legend really begins with him, with Albert Bender. So now up to this point, we have two explanations. We have government agents or aliens. It's one or the other. Um, and and John Keel is actually one of the most fascinating researchers in paranormal history. This is right up our alley, and most people know him from the Mothman prophecies. Love that movie. It's a great movie, Richard Gere. But while investigating UFO reports, he noticed something very strange. People who reported UFOs often uh report other bizarre incidences to experiences, um, whether it's cryptids, poltergeist activity, strange phone calls, and yes, men in black activities and encounters as well. Almost like these things travel together, right? Yeah, exactly. And Keel actually believed that UFOs might not be extraterrestrials at all. In fact, he said and he proposed that maybe there's something called ultraterrestrial intelligence. Wow. So basically an unknown phenomenon interacting with humanity. We don't really know what it is. Changing forms depending on the culture. So ancient people, they saw angels, middle ages saw fairies, uh, modern society sees aliens and men in black.
SPEAKER_01Honestly, that's somehow weirder than aliens.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, aliens we can kind of get behind and be like, yeah, I can see that. When we're talking about things we really don't know, that's where it gets way weirder. And it does explain something why so many paranormal stories seem to be connected. In your opinion, does Keel's theory add up or does it seem pretty crazy and far-fetched out there?
SPEAKER_01I don't think it's that far-fetched, and here's the reason why, right? Um in our last episode, Alien Disclosure, I talked about my experience with the shadow figure. And I personally believe with the shadow figures, uh, the shadow people, uh, that these entities are aliens that are time travelers. And they're crossing some barrier that we don't know how they're doing it, but they're watching us in our sleep, um, observing us. Uh, there's been reports of people um being abducted and seeing shadow figures as well. So there is some correlation between like the Keel brought up here, that maybe ghosts and aliens are one and the same, and that's that's the connection there. And I, because of my personal experience, um, I think he's really onto something.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so they kind of overlap. It's right. Extraterrestrials, alien activity, and paranormal activity and entities that are overlapping, which to your point goes back to our last episode and even to a degree the cursed episode, and we're talking about um why things happen, parallel universes, and with the technology we have now, we're not quite there yet. I don't know if we'll ever get there, but ancient alien cultures that have had these type of um or have the type of technology to do this, sort of, I don't know if they know how to get into our dimension or our realm or our parallel, whatever, but it's certainly very interesting. It really is. So the final question here is what are the men in black? And we have a few options, and I want you to pick one. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. So are they government agents, alien enforcers, psychological phenomenon, or just something completely different, entirely that we don't understand?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna go with alien enforcers. Okay, okay now. Here's the reason why. In most of these encounters, people are describing these things, these men in black, whatever they are, as something in between an alien and a human, right? And they seem to always crack down on people that have just recently seen some type of unexplained phenomena and are going to um go public with that knowledge. And why would or I want to say why would the government well the government would have a a reason why they would want to um keep it under the under wraps, but I really believe that aliens are trying to keep themselves hidden because we're not really ready for full disclosure.
SPEAKER_03Which again, we'll go back to our last episode. Are they here to help us? Are they here to guide us? Um the argument can be made that we talked about reptilians and right their ability to manipulate, change, do this and do that, but in the same same context, you could also argue that the aliens are here for good. So, in my personal opinion, I don't I don't necessarily want to say they're alien enforcers. I'm gonna say just a government agency. I think they're an extension of maybe some classified uh programs because you know I don't think they're necessarily, when I say they, I mean quote unquote the men in black. I think they're doing quality control. Like they're trying to keep things under wrap, but I don't know that they're necessarily denying the existence of aliens. And I don't think they're the ones responsible for so and spoil alert, so with Disclosure Day, there is a part in the movie where I don't want to say, and I don't want to give too much way, but the alien is being um detained and there's some experiments being performed. And I wouldn't say that the men in black, the government agency, do that. I don't see them that way, potentially. I see them as more of a quality control, let's make sure the public doesn't know too much, let's keep everybody calm and you see nothing, you know nothing, type of type of deal. So I don't think they're necessarily evil or bad as much as they're there to make sure that it what we don't know stays that way.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's a really uh well thought out um uh uh point of view. I like that. Yeah, that's uh that's great. For more than 70 years, people have reported encounters with mysterious figures dressed entirely in black. Some people believe they were government agents, some believe they were extraterrestrials, and some believe they were something far stranger. Whatever the truth may be, the men in black have become one of the most enduring mysteries in modern conspiracy culture. And unlike most legends, no one has ever fully explained them. This has been the midnight debrief. Stay curious, stay skeptical.
SPEAKER_03And if a black sedan pulls up in your driveway, just let it keep on driving by. Don't even mess with it. Look right here, please. You saw nothing? You'll remember nothing. Go out and adopt a bunch of cute puppies. Have a good night, everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, do you think they're gonna know that you're an alien? Sorry. Don't be talking about that. It's literally gonna take me four. You already said too much. It's gonna take me four hundred thousand light years to get home. Oh yeah. Oh, sorry, are we still recording? Yes. No. They won't remember it.