EP04 | Talent Development & Growth

Spotting talent is one thing. Helping it grow, and keeping people engaged along the way, is where the real work begins.

In this episode, Dorien Leyers brings together Ellen Claes, People Director at SD Worx, and Erwin Janssen, Team Director at Team SD Worx-Protime, for a conversation about talent development in both business and elite cycling. They discuss how to recognise potential early, how mentorship shapes progress, and why growth is rarely as straightforward as it looks from the outside.

Using the journey of Julia Kopecký, a young prodigy of the team, this episode explores support, challenge, feedback and timing. Because talent needs more than opportunity. It needs the right environment to turn potential into performance.

People & Peloton

What can business learn from the peloton, and what can elite sport learn from the workplace?  In People & Peloton, we bring those two worlds together.

Hosted by Dorien Leyers, this SD Worx podcast pairs conversations from the boardroom with insights from the road. In each episode, leaders from SD Worx and Team SD Worx-Protime explore a topic that shapes performance today, from teamwork and resilience to leadership, growth, wellbeing and culture.  

Expect practical ideas, honest reflections and stories from high-pressure environments where decisions matter, trust matters, and people make the difference. Because whether you lead a company or ride in a team, success rarely comes down to talent alone. 

It comes down to how you work together when it counts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Welcome to People and Peloton, the SD Works podcast where cycling and business come together. In every episode, we put two conversations next to each other: one from the boardroom and one from the Peloton. Together we'll discover their similarities and what both can learn from each other. And today we'll explore what great development really looks like, how you identify and develop talent, how to keep employees engaged throughout their growth, and how team support and mentorship plays a role in all of this. Joining me today are Ellen Klass, people director at SD Works, who knows everything about talent in the office. And next to her, we have Erwin Janssen, team director at SD Works Pro Time Cycling Team, making sure that a professional cycling team has what it needs to perform at the highest level. Welcome both.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Thank you. As a young girl, I always watched these girls that I'm now riding with on the television. And it's really a reason for me to step into this team in the first place to be able to learn because I know that these girls have so much experience. And every day, and not even only on the bike, but also off the bike. You learn so much. Just at the dinners about nutrition and also like how to keep yourself mentally strong. And that's for sure the most you learn is in the racing, how to keep yourself positioned, uh strategies and stuff like that. Um, so it's amazing to see how much I can learn. Um, and I hope to learn more and more the coming year. Of course, last year I didn't do so many races due to knee injury. Um, but the race that I did, I got so much feedback, and um yeah, you learned so many lessons already, and also at the training camps, um there's just so much to learn that I didn't even know that I had to learn those things, and um yeah, for sure. And also they make me super strong. The training camps, I remember the first one, it was so hard. I was sleeping every day for two hours after the training, so they yeah, they really get me to uh to a higher level. Like in races, sometimes uh when you I think it was in in Australia and I wasn't keeping the girls good like out of the wind, and then um Barbara was helping me out with like okay, go a bit more left, a bit more right, so we are all out of the wind and and stuff like that, and then you really start to think more and more of it. Um but also in race meetings, it's like uh you we really watch the sprints, and even though I'm not a sprinter, you can still learn so much about what the right moments are to go. Um so like tactic-wise, there's yeah, big steps. Yeah, sometimes you forget that uh there's the the whole team, but or or you don't even know, but uh yeah, they we you know we communicate, you say okay, a bit more to the left, and you know the whole team is behind you, and it's also super motivating to know, like, oh you know, the whole team is behind me now, I'm keeping I'm working for them, and uh yeah, it's really nice.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

Edwin, if I may start with you, when you look at a young writer, is there something that can tell you straight away this one can go all the way?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

No, that's not so easy.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Uh if you had to pick one, is it maybe mostly mindset or that physical capacity or their their learning speed, or is there any of them more important than the other one?

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Maybe I think uh all the three are really important uh to to have uh in that rider to become maybe a world class uh rider. Um and of course, they first they need the physical uh uh physical um uh things uh to to to have. Uh but of course mindset. Uh I think mindset is uh at the end the most important uh to reach uh really the world top uh in cycling.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Okay, and consistency?

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Of course, of course, uh consistency is really uh important. Uh uh also as a as a young rider, uh you need to uh you need to understand, uh and sometimes we say what what comes quick is really good, uh, but uh in the really professional cycling world, also and women's cycling where we are now, um we need to think and we need to to see that's always a step-by-step. Uh, and it's not so easy uh to to grow from a talent, a young talent, to to world top rider. And in the past, uh yeah, it was maybe some uh quicker possible, uh, but nowadays with uh the conqueror, the competitors, what we have in uh in the cycling industry, yeah, that's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Maybe if I reverse that question, Edwin, is there any early on red flag or a sign that you know this one is gonna struggle at the top, this one is not gonna handle the pressure that it takes that will come with it?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, sure. Uh um uh if if we have uh if we have uh talks uh um with uh with the girls before they come to our team, um of course then uh we have numbers, uh we have good uh let me say we we we saw their results, etc. But um when you don't see and when you don't feel in those in those meetings uh that they really are also convinced that they can reach the top or world top or whatever it is, uh then we think it's a red flag. So confidence, yeah, confidence, but but not in in let me say in the right way, confidence, yeah, of course. Um because we are a number one team, and if you come there as a young talent, uh it's always of course difficult to find your position. Uh and um so there are always world-class riders in front of you, uh, and um so mentally uh as a young rider to become in a number world to handle is is a really lot to handle. So if we see or feel that they are adopting too much, then it's a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

It must be hard because the young talent is probably impressed by the other ones who are big names.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

That's something you notice.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yeah, of course. That we know that, yeah, we know that, and we have the experience with that. But we have, I think, a lot of uh examples that even young writers uh who came with us um yeah, reached the world top in three, four years. Right. So if we find the real talents, then it must be possible.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Ellen, finding young talents, that is a ride up your alley, of course. That's exactly what you at you do at as you works, but do you do you resonate with what Irvin is saying? We're talking about mindset. The physical activity is less important, I think. But but the the the confidence, or can they be too confident when they start out?

SPEAKER_03 7:25

I don't know. I think the physical uh part indeed, um that makes it indeed. Um but the physical part you can um compare it with the skills in general, of course, general uh skills who need to be there. Um but we we often say like um hire for skills, train for um higher for sorry, higher for attitude, train for skills. Uh so if the base is there and you have the right attitude and the mindset, you know. We look about uh talent, then we look about people uh who have uh the potential, who have uh learning agility, but who are also maybe a little bit humble. Humble on one hand, but also uh self-confident enough uh to make it happen in the end. So it's actually a combination of all those things.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

So we call it humble and hungry. Yes, that's I think that's the good uh that's the good attitude for any young potential when I read the room. I think in any type of uh place where we start as a young talent. Maybe the red flag question, Ellen, for you as well. What is a red flag for you when you have that first conversation with a potential?

SPEAKER_03 8:35

Um for me it's um the self-awareness, maybe also already a kind of a maturity.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

You expect even also uh with young uh talents um in um so you expect them to have self-awareness, that's exactly about their talents, about their about who they are, um and yeah, indeed. Okay, okay, all right, good to know. Um, maybe uh an extra question could be to give us an example, Alan, to give us a certain moment at SD works where you uh really recognized a talent and also saw the fruits of of your guidance of them.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Yeah, I think for me it's it's a kind of a process. It doesn't happen overnight. No. And it's um sometimes there is failure, sometimes there's success. But in the end, it should all come together. And when I have my moment of pride, uh let's say, yeah, when I see someone um you coached and you brought to the next level is a moment when he or she brings a topic um to the floor, and when he or she also gets recognized by uh other people, and um and that they see um that there was a nice growth path. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Maybe back to Edwin. How does the team mentor young writers on their way to top performance? And and maybe an extra question with that, how do you balance? Because I think it's a it's a very delicate balance, the the pushing them and still protecting them. I mean, they're still young.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a really big uh item, of course. Uh yeah, what we what we try to do is uh first of all, they have an own coach. Uh yeah, yeah. So they have a one-to-one uh coach, and then of course the the sport directors, uh they talk a lot, of course, with the young talents, and we have the meetings with them to develop, to look to the numbers, uh, how to how they can improve, etc. etc. But I think what also worked really well is that we always try to have an experienced rider, one of the top riders, who is a kind of a buddy for the young talents. And that works really good. Um, for example, now this year we have Ninke, uh Ninke Finke as a new rider in our team. Uh, she's 21 years old, uh, uh a really great talent, uh, for sure, uh, for the for the stage races, uh, uphill uh races. Uh, and we have as a kind of a buddy Anna van der Breger with a lot of experience. Uh and she tries to help that young rider uh to develop. Uh, and and our experience is that that is one of the most effective uh ways of developing.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Uh very pragmatic.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah, that's pragmatic. Um, but it's always because that young does always look up to one of the top riders, they show the world uh what they can. Uh so that works really well, uh, even much better than only the director sportif, a sports director, uh, talk uh with the girls. So the combination of all uh is very pragmatic, but uh yeah, really uh uh yeah, really really good. And then uh the second question you ask is the uh the push and the so versus protecting versus yeah, protect that's really difficult, yeah. Uh, because it's top sport, and that's even much harder than in the business. And especially uh if you are a young talent in business, we say ah he's young, and uh we understand that, but in the top sport, and if you're number one of the world, of course we protect them, but also yeah, we we want to see progress. Uh, it's a talent, uh, and but we want to see progress. So sometimes you protect, but sometimes, of course, we really push, and sometimes we push hard to bring them also to next level. That's that's also yeah, let me say, a goal. Uh, but it's always it's depending also about the talent. Uh, some need some more pushes, otherwise, you need to protect a little bit more. So that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

You always that's also a tailor-made approach.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Is there room for mistakes for the young talents?

SPEAKER_01 12:58

Of course, of course, of course. No, of course. They have to learn. It's not that hard. Uh they need to they need to learn. Uh uh, we want to learn with them, of course. Uh and we give them their chances. Uh, and if it if it does not happen, okay. Uh it's not that then uh yeah, that that that we let me say, uh take them very hard, of course.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Now Alan, is that the bodyship, for example, is that something that you do at SD works as well?

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Yes, we do it. And I really like the example because I think it's a it's a very nice example also in a business world, uh, where you have that mentorship and where you can uh have experienced, uh seasoned uh colleagues who guide and and take the word the youngsters with you and and guide them. And and also indeed, also in a business context, people can really look to these people and take them as an example, and you can learn a lot. You have the classic learning uh in classroom, but um on on the job and and with a good example, you learn the most.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Edwin, have you ever made a mistake as a leader where now in hindsight you think, yep, I did that the wrong way, that was not the way I was supposed to do that. Um maybe you pushed too hard. I'm just thinking out loud, or yeah, I should.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

We we learned, of course, in the last 10 years also a lot. Uh yes, of course, we had some examples uh years ago that we maybe uh expected too fast. Uh right. Too fast, too fast uh that the talent. Too much too fast. Yeah, yeah, too much too fast. And that's you see also that the industry is really developing. Uh so the way you work five years ago is not possible anymore. Uh so we learn from our past, and of course we make mistakes, we learn for that, but most of the time was maybe that we yeah, sometimes we push too hard and want it too fast.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Absolutely. Ellen, I think you mentioned before that growth journeys are rarely linear. And I wonder how you keep people, young people, motivated and engaged when maybe progress feels for them too slow or when the promotion is not right around the corner, but you still want to give them that feeling of don't give up, keep doing what you're doing. Because young people, I think, tend to always want to see more and more immediate results.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

Uh yes, indeed. And uh I think the opportunity we have uh as a company, as as it works, that we are fast growing anyway. So it means we have it goes fast anyway. We have opportunities, we have a lot of opportunities for people who want to grow. So I'm not that concerned about that part, but sometimes talented people also want to go a little bit too fast, faster than they can go. And then you should indeed protect them and give them that open and honest feedback, also. Like, okay, maybe it's better to wait a little bit to get a little bit stronger before you take the step and before you reburn you.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And when that's really one important in the cycling, I'm guessing you have something to say about that as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yes, uh, I think, but that there is one uh big difference is that you see in sports and of course also in cycling, that it can be that they are really young, but they are so talented that you also uh you must give them also the possibility to grow fast. If it's in there, you need to give them the possibility, and you cannot say them from yeah, you need to wait or this or that or the other. That's not for you. So you always need to manage this this really talent, talented riders. Uh, if they knock on the door and we feel and see that they have the possibility, then you need to give them. And I think that's different in business. Uh for sure. If they are so young, you we we speak about girls from 22, 23, 24. Yeah, if they really knock on the door, yeah, you you you need to give them the possibilities to show the quality.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

And I don't think it's that different because it's if it's a really uh talented person, uh then then indeed you should you should go for it. And uh also at as it works, there are those possibilities. I think but that's that's for me then uh even the difference between what is a talent and is it's uh that high potential, is it a talented, I think you still have different um levels in that one. But I agree, and also in a business context, we we should make it happen as well, because otherwise you lose those people.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah, because I think really in business, I see it also in my own company, then it's also if you are 22 or 23 or 24, and you really are really a top talent, it's not that that fast that they get a manager's position when they are 22, 23. And with us, it's possible and we have some writers and they knock on the door if they are 23 and they are right there. Yeah, then you need to give them the possibility and not okay in two or three years you can knock on the door again.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

That's a that's a great comment because I think indeed there needs to be in the business world some kind of organic growth to be let's say to be a leader at 25 or 30, which is possible. I think at your home company you have amazing examples of that. But they still went through the learning curve, even if it was fast, but they still had to run through a couple of uh functions before getting in a leadership function.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Is it also about intrinsic motivation, Ellen? And if you feel that, that someone has that, you want to hold on to that person?

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Absolutely. I think you can really build on um a lot on people who are intrinsically motivated also for the long term. Uh it's not only about rewards, but it's it's uh much more than that indeed.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

How important, Erwin, is feedback for young talent?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

That's necessary, it's really important. Um we are in the top spot, uh, so it's really important to do it immediately, to be clear. Uh talk uh clear language, uh don't turn. Uh so that's that's really important. So that's also our DNA uh to to do it in a direct way, of course, constructive, positive, etc. And sometimes hard. Yeah, that's sometimes necessary.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

That's why they have to have a growth mindset, otherwise you're not capable of doing it.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Otherwise they will not survive. Never they will not survive, yeah. Yeah, sometimes it's hard, but yeah, it's necessary to it's it's yeah, it's top sport, and yeah, there are some other rules than mostly in the business.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Ellen, is young talent today open for feedback?

SPEAKER_03 19:50

I think so too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But for me, it's not what you say, but it's how you say it, how you bring your message, and that can make the in a constructive way, absolutely. Yeah, with with respect for the person, but still open and honest. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Maybe I don't know, Edwin, if you have an example of um how you gave feedback in a constructive way and how this really changed the path of one of your young writers.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, sure. I think uh we have uh several uh examples, but from last season I think it was a really uh nice one. Uh we had uh yeah, Misha Braderwald, uh that time 23 years old. So she was big talent and she won already some big races. Uh but she she really wanted, and we really knew that she could do that. She wanted to win this really big world tour class race. And then I think she was adopting and adopting, uh, from can I win this? Can I do this, etc. etc. And I remember last year, uh just one week uh or a few days before the Armstrong Gold race, uh Danny Stamm uh sat down, sat down with her and talked with her, and gave her the feeling from Mish, okay, it takes time, you're a talent, but you're ready for it, you need to believe in it, etc. etc. And then two days later uh she won the Armster Gold race, and it was a fantastic race. And the way she won that that shows mentality that shows power. Uh but I think in that way we really help her in that last piece of believe in you can do it.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

But she had the confidence.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

She had the confidence. She had that, but she was doubling. That's of course the top sports. She was in doubt. Yeah, yeah. The top sport that they have could let me say, they have, of course, uh periods that they believe and they are convinced that they can win that race. But of course, they have also their periods that they Think, can I rent even a race? And that's always uh difficult because you start with, let me say, around around 150 or 155, right? And there's just one who can win those races. So I think that was a good uh example. Um yeah, from Misha.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Do you have a moment, Ellen, that you remember from your career where you said that's where I made a difference with my feedback, maybe something they didn't expect. You would say, I can assume that um in top sport, you usually know what your skills are, sort of more or less, but maybe in the business world, uh, one or two times people don't even know what their strengths actually are or aiming for a commercial position and they're actually super good in administration, but they would love to be commercial and you have to say, I'm sorry, but I don't think you are.

SPEAKER_03 22:52

Mm-hmm. It happens and it happens quite often. But that's also a little bit um to do with uh the self-awareness, right? From the beginning. Yeah, in the beginning. But then at the same time, um people also give the answer themselves because you see them struggle. You see them struggle, and actually, if they're honest with themselves, they know they're struggling. So you can open that dialogue and and show them them the mirror. Um but it's it's not always easy, and sometimes it's really difficult for people to accept. That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Do young riders come in, Erwin, and always know exactly where in that cycling team they belong?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Not always. Uh some some talents, it's uh pretty specific what they what what they can and where we think that they can uh uh grow in.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

For them, for for those like myself who are amateur, we're talking about are you a sprinter? Give us a couple of examples.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

Exactly. Whatever. So most of the time we know that, but we have also talents uh if you look and they came to us that that we need to experience with them where they can uh discover their skills together. Discover their skills, yeah, absolutely. Uh but most of the time, of course, most of uh for sure the top talents that you really know from okay, it's this or that uh part uh from cycling.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Okay, well, let's discover together how the young talent in the Peloton uh developed and experienced this journey.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

Um, yeah, of course, it is a lot with meetings because those are mainly like the learning points for everybody. You discuss those. Um, because of course, as a young writer you learn the most, but everybody is uh always learning, I think. Um but also because in this team you have so many experienced riders and yeah, the best riders in the world, I would like to say. So they have so much knowledge, and they're eager also to give that knowledge to us as younger riders. So it's nice to see that we are eager to learn and they are also willing to give their knowledge to us. So that's the right combination, I think. And then great results will come.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Let's go to the rapid fire questions. Very briefly, Ellen and Edwin. Maybe Ellen, starting with you, if there's one talent development tool that you would steal from recycling that you heard today, what would that be?

SPEAKER_03 25:23

My uh key takeaway is actually the mentorship. It's something we have within our company, but I think we can further reinforce improve.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah. Okay, room for improvement, Erwin. Something that you think, hmm, interesting. I'll steal that from the business world.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah, what you see uh I think more the long-term the long-term vision and the long-term uh goals. Okay. What you see in Top Spot is most of the time we look to the season or the next race, etc. etc. And I think we picked up also from go we have a longer uh view uh yeah on our team.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Okay. One red flag that tells you that you're not developing talent as you should be. It's not working. What is the red flag? What is that?

SPEAKER_03 26:17

For me, it's when I see um leaders um treating their people like mother hand and not letting them fly. Um and yeah, that's uh that's really a pity, and that's something we really should avoid. That stands in the way of development sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, for us a red flag is if if we pick up uh young top talents and we don't give them uh everything we have to develop them to the top. So that's that's a red flag. So we need to do everything to bring them there.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

One habit, it could be a daily habit that accelerates growth.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

For me, crucial in the whole development journey is a leader. The leader who keeps track on the growth, the personal growth part, the uh also individual growth part of uh of a talented person.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Can you repeat that?

SPEAKER_02 27:17

Do you have a habit? It could be a daily habit within your leadership where you notice this really accelerates growth.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

It could even be something you say, something motivational you do that you notice that I think I think that we are if you look to our team, and I think one of the habits is this we we or DNA is every race we race, we want to win. And that's so in our DNA. All our girls and our staff knows that. And I think that that's inhabit where we uh yeah, what's what's typical team as the works prototype?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

And then they want to be part of that. Exactly. That could be infatuating. And finally, one question every leader, according to you, should ask themselves, maybe on a daily basis, maybe on a weekly basis, maybe every night after the work. What is something a leader should always ask themselves?

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, I think Is there enough trust from your riders and staff in you as a leader?

SPEAKER_03 28:22

That's a good one to trust. Ellen, and what did I do to make my people grow?

SPEAKER_02 28:30

All right. Trust is important for that growth as well. Thank you so much, Ellen and Edwin. Thank you. Now, if I would summarize this episode in one mantra, it would be higher for attitude, train for skills. Ideally, you want your talent humble and hungry. Talent development doesn't happen overnight, but luckily a helping hand in the form of a buddy and mentor can be found right on your office floor. Of course, feedback plays a crucial role in talent development. And most of all, give your little birds the opportunity to fly when the time comes. Thank you so much for listening and watching. Discover the other people and Peloton episodes about cycling and business at SCWorks.com or at your favorite podcast platform, of course. Until next time, bye bye.