Arrows in Motion Podcast

Nobody Gets Fired for Being Too Creative — Dan Graney on Copywriting, AI, and Decades of Big Swings

• Scott Heaton • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Episoe: Dan Graney | What does it actually mean to stay creative for decades in an industry that keeps changing the tools? In this episode of Arrows in Motion, Scott sits down with Dan Graney — veteran creative copywriter, pop culture enthusiast, and advertising lifer — for a wide-ranging conversation about the craft of copywriting, the reality of agency burnout, and what AI actually means for creative professionals who've been doing this long before the algorithms showed up.
Dan brings a rare perspective: a career spanning the early internet, major brand accounts including PepsiCo, Taco Bell, and Frito-Lay, and now the AI era — and his take is that the tools change but the principles never do. Curiosity, discovery, and the willingness to push past the safe idea are as valuable today as they were when he was pitching concepts on paper.
We dig into his creative brief presentation framework — Iteration, Evolution, Revolution — and why presenting three concepts at different levels of boldness isn't just a client management strategy, it's how you protect the work. Dan also shares why nobody in advertising history has ever fired a creative for being too creative, why clients actually want to feel like they're reining you in, and what happens when you strip clinical language out of a product category no one understands and just speak plainly to the consumer.
For early-career copywriters and marketing students trying to break into advertising, this episode is a masterclass in creative thinking, how to use AI as a collaborative tool without losing your voice, and what a long, honest career in the creative industry actually looks like. No shortcuts. No hacks. Just craft.

Arrows in Motion

Most podcasts about business and marketing tell you what to think. Arrows in Motion asks better questions.

Hosted by Scott Heaton, Arrows in Motion is a long-form conversation podcast that goes deep with entrepreneurs, executives, and marketing professionals who've built real things — and learned hard lessons along the way. Each episode explores the gap between how success looks from the outside and what it actually takes to get there: the strategy, the grind, the pivots, the moments nobody posts about.

Whether you're a Fortune 500 VP rethinking what career advancement really costs, a small business owner trying to figure out if your marketing agency is actually on your side, or a fitness entrepreneur building something from scratch with nothing but drive — there's a conversation here for you.

For early-career marketers and marketing students trying to break into the industry, Arrows in Motion is the mentorship most people never get access to. Real talk on salary negotiation, building professional confidence, navigating agency culture, and what marketing careers actually look like beyond the job description. No gatekeeping. No fluff.

For experienced professionals, it's a mirror — and a reminder that the smartest people in the room are still asking questions.

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Topics include: marketing strategy, entrepreneurship, career development, personal branding, agency vs in-house marketing, small business growth, corporate leadership, women in business, fitness entrepreneurship, professional development, entry-level marketing, marketing career advice, how to break into marketing, business podcast, career coaching, work-life balance, startup mindset, marketing for beginners, first job in marketing, college to career.

SPEAKER_01

Today on Arrows in Motion, we have Dan Grainy. He is a creative copywriter, pop culture enthusiast for many decades. We talk about how the tools of the trade have changed, but it always goes back to the value of digging deeper, discovery, and pushing the boundaries.

SPEAKER_00

So uh what does she do? August 9th. So you uh uh after that day, you will understand and appreciate that you you will find bits of food on you and it's easier to eat it than to get to a trash can if you're holding a baby. You will you will look down and be like, you know, and and it's well, you know, not so much uh the the soft stuff. But once it's like things like Cheerios, you will go and just eat it.

SPEAKER_01

You know what's funny is like there are so many things about having a kid, and the one thing that I have that I'm most spooked about is like the mess in the crumbs. Like I'm such an OCD, like I left a when I got like my first round of agency burnout, when I was like, I'm toast, I went and started literally just cleaning houses because it was like a thing that I thought was fun. Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That was agencies they have a way of doing.

SPEAKER_00

I have selective OCD. I have like uh things like files and like, you know, like uh physical media and stuff like that, but then it's like there's other times where it's like I kind of wish I had a little more OCD, like I wish in my wiring behind all my uh equipment. Like getting my equipment to work, getting everything to work, you know, because I've got this uh, you know, with my uh my NAS and my Plex and you know, all of the software and hardware and all of that stuff, I will not stop until everything is working exactly right. However, the wiring behind all this stuff is a disaster. And I look at it and it just and it it makes me sad because I'm like, man, if I only had just a little more.

SPEAKER_01

Like why doesn't my leave care about cable ties? Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00

No, it doesn't. Yeah. And I wish it I mean it does. The thing is that I'll look at it and I'll be like, oh, and I just have to look away. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01

Like that's when I get home, I'm like freaking out when there's streaks on the countertop. Like I'll do that like looking at different light angles. But it look like my desk looks like a sitcom closet like dumped out on top of it.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell So yeah, that you'll have good practice with that.

SPEAKER_01

I guess. I'm just like I feel like it could be this I'm like mentally about to explode just like everybody else. I'm just hoping it's not the straw that breaks the camel's back.

SPEAKER_00

But the only thing because every Okay, so then obviously everybody's giving you advice.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

I'm assuming. Yes. And everybody is gonna tell you even people who do not have children, which I'm always like, I don't discredit or discount those people, but it is not the same thing. And I was one of those people. I mean, there was a point w when my sister had my my nephew, my godson, and I had a cat. And in my head, I equated my relationship with my cat, like, oh, he's kind of like my kid. That is and I admit this freely. Yeah. You know, it's like I'm not proud of this. I was an idiot. That was the dumbest thing I could have ever said. And I've said a lot of dumb things. But that was like really dumb. That's but I will say the best thing I ever heard was uh sleep when the baby sleeps.

SPEAKER_01

It doesn't matter when I think that's great advice. It like that's somebody one of my good friends told me something really similar is like you're going to have to learn to be more flexible than you've been for a very long time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I actually kind of resented it like the first couple weeks, I was like, this is bull crap. I am not sleeping at seven.

SPEAKER_01

And within a couple days, I'm like, oh yeah, it's like when you start dissociating because you're exhausted. You're just like, I'll sleep when I get sleep.

SPEAKER_00

Because that kid's gonna get up. You can't make the baby sleep. I mean, you you want to, and you'll have those little milestones, like like three hours, yay! And then it'll be four hours, yay! But the thing is, it it it seems just unbearable at the time. And then like it'll be gone, and then you'll be like, oh yeah, that's right. We didn't sleep for a while.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I'm a horrible dog parent. I have two dogs that I've done a horrific no-effort job training. So like they bark with like maniacs every time something happens outside. And I hate them sometimes, but it's like I I deeply love these things. Sure. And they're dogs. I can't imagine like what I'll feel for the child.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's it's um devastating. That's what I I told somebody, is that it's like that amount of dog, are you recording?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That amount of love and affection is uh crippling and devastating. It's amazing, but it is also you're just like, ugh. What do you when you say devastating, do you mean like the weight of it? Absolutely. And you don't understand it until all of a sudden you're just like oh my god. And you feel like you realize I'm going to carry this forever. And in that like first year, I'm pretty sure in the first year, I don't know how many times I apologized to my parents for just being a child. Not just a child, a teenager. I'm just like and now I, you know, my daughter's thirteen, uh, my son is uh uh well uh fourteen. They're six months apart though, so that's fun. And um and I see so much of like and I I would think that I would be better at handling this transition into teenagers uh because I very I have a uh a a pretty um solid memory. Uh I I I don't forget things often or easily. Uh and I remember most of being a teenager and I'm just like damn it. Ugh and I I wish I I I should I I be you know, having that vivid memory, I should be like, oh, I got this, because I totally remember what I was like. Um but it I'm like not reacting, I don't know what to do. I just like, oh no.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I mean the context you have on life from when you were a teenager to when you're managing teenagers is just so radically different. Oh yeah. It's impossible to square.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. I it's just, you know, and I'm constantly like, you know, because I tell my wife, she's like, she'll she'll do the uh when we were, I'm like, don't even. I'm like, it's it's pointless because nothing of that world exists now.

SPEAKER_01

It's like every generation has done that and it's mattered zero times.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean it's it's like you can't look backward. You could look backwards and you appreciate things and think about the adapted uh you know how you adapted to it or or whatever you did. But you know, well, if we had I mean independence was just having an extra long cord on the phone in your kitchen so you could get out of the kitchen. For me, it was like around the corner and sitting on the middle of the steps.

SPEAKER_01

God, that's such a funny specific memory. It's just like I think sometimes people look back and think of life as like an era that cleanly ended and it began, and it's just like this continuous thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's it well, it's it's changing all the time. I mean, what we were just talking. It's like there's a thing that you know happens to come along, you know, whatever the catalyst is, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I guess it's what it is now.

SPEAKER_01

I guess I'll get to that thing, which I think everybody knows what that new thing is. But speaking of when you were a teenager, I did some internet creeping as I often do, and found like the funniest thing about when you were a teenager, your first piece of copy of Walt for Walden Books.

SPEAKER_00

Walden Books, Read or Bleed.

SPEAKER_01

Read or bleed. I thought that was bleed. What was the corresponding illustration?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it was a uh Barbarian, and it wasn't exactly Conan, but uh I mean Conan-esque. I I I'm sure now I would probably get a cease and desist letter. But um I had uh, you know, it had like a book or a bloody axe, and it had a severed head, and it was for Walden Books Summer Reading Program, and it was yeah, I put read or bleed. And actually I I think they only had three submissions, but you know, it was it was up there. Aaron Powell So you were a medalist at least. Uh yeah. I mean I definitely placed. You know.

SPEAKER_01

Do you still believe it's read or bleed?

SPEAKER_00

I I mean I I think it's it it's you know, read or bleed, but you know, maybe uh uh you know, and smarter uh shorter uh bursts and and it might be on your tablet. Uh as much as I appreciate, you know, in fact, uh last week I was uh at a uh uh local uh bookstore, uh the fantasy can I say Yes. Oh okay. The fantasy shop here in St. Louis. So we've got a lot of uh you know great um uh comic and and uh you know uh card shops, you know. And this is the one in St. Charles because the one by me uh uh in Creve Corps was uh closed, but they're reopening soon. And um, you know, I I went there, uh it was actually an initiative uh from my job. We were it was called uh Meet Main Street, where we all went out and supported uh small uh independent uh businesses, local businesses. And it was great, just that uh thrill of like going in. And it's one of the few things that that we can do now that has that sort of like sense of discovery uh when you walk around and you're like, ooh, what's this? And you get to pick something up in that tactile moment where you're like, oh, I didn't even know this existed. I found a creature from the Black Lagoon lives graphic novel that apparently came out recently, didn't know it was a thing at all, totally got it. Um I am expensing it. Uh they said they'd pay. But um, and it r made me think about like going to the video store. And yeah, you know, uh when you would go out and you know, you you try to, you'd hope you'd get the big movie, you know. It could be a Friday night and you'd go to the store and you'd get there and it was just a bunch of empty boxes. But um, you know, but there was also that thing where it's like, well, what's this? I don't know, let's let's get it. And the and that chance that people would take. And we don't have that now. And then in the in the the the thing with Walden books, it was like uh, you know, which at at the time they were, what was it? Uh there was B. Dalton and Walden, I think were the two kind of like mall uh bookstores. Um, you know, and here in St. Louis we had Library Limited, which was, you know, the like big indie bookstore, which I really, really miss um, you know, before uh you know Borders came along. And then Borders came along, and uh, seemed like that's it, that's that's the way it's gonna be. Borders is gone. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01

And the independents are still everywhere.

SPEAKER_00

And now and now just bookstores in general are are starting to feel like this thing that they've you know gone away. You know, why? Because we're in the era of everything available all the time. Trevor Burrus, Jr. Infinite frictionless access to everything. Everything is available. And it it's and it and it makes me want to figure out a way to uh come up with uh, you know, even though you know all you gotta do is look online. Um you know how even you're served up things, whether it's on Prime or Amazon or Netflix, you know, wherever you're looking, it's always, you might like this. And it's like, I might, but I usually don't. And it's because just whatever the algorithm is, it's not predicting it, you know, it's predicting some there's some pattern there. But it's not me. And it's also, you know, it's like, yeah, but that's almost exactly the same thing, just with a different coat of paint.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, it's derivative. It doesn't have the same like thing that I loved about the other thing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's like, you know, if I watch Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan, you know, you might like Star Trek III. You think? I mean, it's like, well, yeah, thanks. It's a way to dig deep.

SPEAKER_01

I was um there's uh interview that's going viral now, and I can't think of the guy's name. He runs Take Two, it's a video game lab that puts out Grand Theft Auto, and he was talking about like his feelings on AI, which I were nuanced, and I think exactly sort of how I feel. Yeah. Is it's like, yes, without AI, you could have made a Grand Theft Auto clone over a period of years, but that doesn't mean anything. A derivative work is that's not why people love Grand Theft Auto. They love it because it's Grand Theft Auto.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You know, the funny thing, uh sidebar, uh I remember the first time I played a Grand Theft Auto game, uh, and I think it might have been two. It was before they went to uh was that like top top down? Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, you know, I, because I rented that at a a Blockbuster, you know, video. That's when they had games.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Which is funny because Blockbuster used to not do like violent games, but I guess because it was top-down, it wasn't really I don't know. And I remember uh playing that. I liked it, you know. And then GTA 3 came out and it was like, whoa. You know. Although I see it now and and looking at I know there's a lot of like nostalgia for for retro. And sometimes it works. And sometimes you're just like, oh, like I I can't I can't play this and I can't even look at it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I found that when I like dusted off my like Nintendo 64 and put in like Wave Race, which was like a jaw-dropping technical mark. So good. Yeah, it was like this is crap. Oh, it's an unplayable monstrosity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But at the time, though, we're like, look at those water graphics.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's like this triangle water, it's so realistic. But uh yeah, I mean well that and that's the whole thing. Like uh AI as a creative tool for like I'm curious how they're using AI for GTA 6, because that's maybe coming out uh in November.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, or this year, next year, we'll see. I I somebody was talking about um one of the best use cases in gaming for AI is making the like non-playable characters more immersive and interesting and adaptable. And I can't think of much else other than just expediting the development.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell Yeah, I mean, I think if if there were a deep dive to you know, kind of talk about because there are people I one of those things is like I always find myself appreciating in things like uh Red Dead 2, just the fact that you can look at something in the distance and you can go there. And and that's a a lot of games, like the assassin creed game, and pretty much are those open world games where you see something and you're like, I can go there if I want. And then you go there and you're just like, if you ever just do that, not you know, stray from the the storyline and from that, and just uh go from one point to another in the distance, you know, you know, ride your horse over there, and you look at it and you appreciate all of the insane amount of of detail, like here are some rocks over there, and look at that tree, and all of the things from here to there that people just don't even look at or take for you know take for granted. And there are people who that's their job to put those things there and make them like, well, I made this one, you know, a little more uh brown and I made that one green.

SPEAKER_01

And do you think being a cre you know, you come from a copywriter creative background? Do you think being a creator yourself allows you to appreciate the craftsmanship of those details in a way that they're absolutely Oh yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, there are times where I'm just like uh you know, I'll be like, oh, look at this waterfall I found. And it's not anything like, be sure to go to the waterfall. There's nothing about going to the waterfall. There's no direction, there's no story points, there's no fish to catch. I mean, it was just happened to be something over there in the distance, and and to look at that and be like, huh, you know, and and and find that for whatever reason somebody decided, eh, I'll put this over there.

SPEAKER_01

You you mentioned when you were talking about the feeling, and I remember it vividly is going to video update that was on the corner down from my parents' house. You mentioned this concept of the feeling of discovery. You know, like you were rifling through, you're pulling the cover back, and so there's no blanks behind it. Yeah. Like the feeling that you get from those open world games sounds like the same thing, is like you're going off the algorithmic track and you're discovering things that are unique to your process.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, uh I think chasing down uh the ability to to chase different directions or go different directions. And I think the smart you know, from a gaming standpoint, the smart games are learning how to respond to that and uh evolve uh that. Now, there are still, you know, a lot of times like the stories are still on rails. It's still like, well, you still have to storm this this fort or whatever it is. But sure, if you want to go over there and see if there's something inside a cave that we put randomly down there, now will we get to a point where they can alter the story because of that? And it impacts, you know, like, oh, you're the guy that that found the the the creature in the cave. Yeah, we heard about you. If they can get to that point, I I mean that's that's the thing that I think it makes it more exciting. And that's something that we're going to need something like AI to do. Because uh a human cannot think of infinite moves another human can make.

SPEAKER_01

So I think it's interesting just talking to you for a few minutes before we sat down. Like you're you started as a pure creative, which in the last couple years I think is one of the communities that have been most oppositional to the AI takeover and the like the unavoidable conversation in every business setting. Um you seem more accepting of it as a tool.

SPEAKER_00

Um yeah, uh I mean, uh just generally as a uh a nerd who gets excited about new technology. Uh I mean I've always been excited about new technology. I still get excited, you know. Well, there's been the ups and downs, like you know, being an Apple person. Um, there would be like, ooh, the new uh developers conference is coming up, or the, you know, uh, you know, the new uh you know, Mac Keynote and stuff like that. And I would always watch that. And and I heard at one job there was like a handful of us, we were all like watching live, you know, at our desktops and stuff like that. Um so it was always just this I uh thing of staying on top of whatever is coming out. And AI is one of those things that kind of came, you know, when it came out and it was suddenly widely available to everybody. Uh, you know, it was instantly available and very cheap. And immediately you started seeing people use it, and I also started to see, especially creatives, not use it and also swear they would never use it, which I thought, I don't think that's a good idea. Um because I I mean at the time I remember telling somebody, I go, oh, you know, there was a time, especially from a copywriter standpoint, it was like um anybody with a keyboard became a writer. And to me, this was like, oh, I pretty sure I need to know what this thing does, because somebody else is going to use it. And they're they're they're gonna use it the wrong way or or or just poorly, and they're gonna say, Well, I did this, and I'm not gonna have an argument for that, because somebody will look at it and be like, Well, this mediocrity uh took me all of five minutes. And I'm still waiting, you know, and you still have like two weeks to go. And that's when I was like, if there's a a new tool out there and it's going to be in everybody's hands, I'm going to make sure I really know how to use that tool. So one, I can use it myself and I can use it the right way, but I can also uh help other people use it. Like to fight it doesn't mean, I mean, that's a battle that's just not, nobody's going to win. As a copywriter, I couldn't go out there and stop everybody else from getting uh, you know, access to Microsoft Word and having a keyboard. You know, there's still people who, you know, uh I I will always say this tonight, you know, uh with respect to all my designer friends, it's like there are still people out there who who kind of like uh uh ease up on you know people who are either videographers or designers because they know they can't open up uh Premiere or Final Cut Pro. Uh but uh they can't open that up. They they know they can't really open up Photoshop or Illustrator and use the tool to achieve what they want. But any any fool out there with a keyboard can be a writer and now a better writer. So yeah, I think to stand in opposition against AI is not really the best stance. And and I think I I mentioned a quote somebody shared, he had heard, which was AI is not going to replace your job. Somebody who knows how to use AI might replace your job. Uh and to which I add, so learn how to use AI.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, like history has told us for a long time, like progress is an unstoppable force. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I mean, this is this is no different than the Industrial Revolution. It's no different than uh, you know, you're talking about Photoshop when Photoshop came along, and photographers, you know, purists, you know, people who worked in the lab and and you know, you know, used all the chemicals and everything, and they're like, this is an outrage. And it's like, I don't know a photographer, I don't know a single photographer who doesn't use Photoshop. I mean, uh, how long has Photoshop been around? What, 20, 30 years?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, about it's the same as when like draft seven years, 27 years.

SPEAKER_00

27 years. Uh by the way, Photoshop uh created by 37. 37? Created by uh John Knoll and his brother John Knoll, who came up with the idea for Rogue One. Really? Yeah, absolutely. Jesus, what a bylaw. Look up uh John Knoll if you haven't watched the uh show uh uh uh The Imagineering Story, watch it. It's fantastic, and it talks about John Knoll. There's the most unassuming guy who got himself into, you know, uh got himself a job because he hung out at ILM, and they were like, eh, okay. So he started working there. Oh, and he and his brother uh created Photoshop.

SPEAKER_01

It's such an unbelievable impact to make on the world.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. He's just one of those people. And the fact is that the guy is just so quiet and uh humble and just an easy-going normal guy. It's like, you we need more people like that.

SPEAKER_01

Do you do design? Um I know you drew Conan or glistening hunk with the.

SPEAKER_00

I have always well, okay, you know, because of my uh uh being a comic book kid, I would write stories, and then I didn't really have a whole lot of comic book kid friends at the time. Yeah. Believe it or not. Uh I mean although now it's just like, man, if i i uh you know if I could be the like, man, in my day, we were just lonely nerds, and now there's so many of us. Yeah. But uh uh yeah, so I I I uh drew all the time. I but I always drew even as a kid. So so I always kind of trusted my hand skills within reason uh as a point to to to to get the point across, or you know, because there have been people who like kind of looked at it like, I don't know what you're talking about. And so I would do like, you know, storyboards and stuff like that, but enough to to get the point across.

SPEAKER_01

But I you know do some, you know, illustration. How do you use AI in your work?

SPEAKER_00

Um a lot of it I use uh first I start with just note-taking. Really? It's fantastic because one, I am uh, you know, a as a writer, and I mean physically writing down, uh it's awful. I signed a a card uh recently for Mother's Day, and I was like, my handwriting looked like I gave a pencil to a baby. Yeah. Like I have the w I have I've always been back. Because I write really fast uh and frantically, I don't write cursive. I'm like, I don't have time for that business, you know. And so uh uh it it for me, uh like a note-taking uh and remembering things. And that that was a big part, it's like I need this to remember. I needed to source information. Now, with AI, especially early on, it was pulling in sources that are absolutely fabricated.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and a lot of people were not checking. They weren't fact-checking. And I would say, are you sure about that? Can you give me the the the source where you got that? Can you give me the link where you found that? And if you keep pushing it and keep pushing it and keep challenging it, and I think that's the thing, is like I don't think people realize that the best way to use AI is to to have a conversation with it and not just say, make a blank for me, you know, is to get in there and and say, I'm working on this and this is what I'm trying to do, and I want you to keep track of this, and we might come back to that and please save this to memory and stuff like that. But always check it. And I I think that's for me, that's what I've done is like first note-taking, sometimes uh outlining, um, and sometimes I'm like, uh I'm thinking this. And I've got it to the point where I had uh I've had been using ChatGPT and I'm slowly transitioning to Claude, which is painful because there is an export tool in ChatGPT that it will allow you to export, but it could take uh weeks. Yeah, you have a lot of memory. I'm like, there's n uh it's just like not happening. And uh and I've been using Claude. Um just because I've noticed at a certain point that like using ChatGPT so long, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm great. Thanks. However, you know, I've I'm wanting it to be more critical. Uh and there's been a handful of times where it's like, uh you know, in my job search, it was fantastic, you know, because there I was uh out of work for a while. It's happened many times in my career. My my career has had a as many, like uh as as many jobs as I've had, I've had not jobs. Um and so it was fantastic just to keep track of everything and to store like all my correspondence and everything. And I used it to to see how many jobs I applied to over the period of time that I was on a job search. And it was a lot. That's depressing. Very many. Very many. Um and uh uh there were a handful of jobs. There was one job that came up, and I said, uh, I'm got this interview, I'm gonna go to this afternoon, I'm trying to find out more information if you could source uh any uh anything in the media. I mean, it was basically I was using it no different than I would use Google search, uh, but it was digging a little bit deeper and looking uh in a lot more places. And um AI chat, uh ChaCha, I I would call her, she came back and she said, this doesn't sound like a good fit for you. Dang. I was like, man, I think I think I've got this thing to the point where like Was Cha Cha right? And and she was absolutely correct. And that was before the interview. I was like, well, you know, but you know, I'm not really working right now, so it would be great to I'm gonna go. And it's a but it was very adamant. It was like, this doesn't seem like the best uh fit.

SPEAKER_01

God, that's really funny.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell But I mean that's but I think that's that's that's using it as an ally and as a tool and is no different than I use I mean we it's just the internet. I mean one agency my first agen agency job, I work there and I'll date myself. I was working there when they got the internet. And I was the third person to have access to the internet at the time. That's when people, you know, still uh you know rode the wave uh of the internet. And uh and I was the the the third person because I remember the owner was like, uh check this out to see if this is something we want to get every everybody access to. And so I was all over about like can I break it and what can I do and and how does it work? And um obviously, you know, you're talking uh the dawn of AOL and CompuServe and Prodigy and trying to think if there was any other Geosity, yes, yeah, so many good ones, all of that stuff, and uh and it was uh I was like, well, I think it's just another tool. Uh you know, now I don't have to go, you know, to the library because there are a lot of times on projects I'd be like, I've got a whole library.

SPEAKER_01

That's interesting. Like just the words that you said about AI and the internet is like you challenge it, you like dig deeper, challenge the assumption, see if you can break it. It sounds like the same advice you would have given like a pencil and paper copywriter twenty junior 25 years ago.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah. Uh I mean nobody, you know, I've had this conversation a few times, and sometimes uh, you know, with uh supervisors or bosses. Uh but nobody has ever uh uh either not hired or fired uh a creative or an agency for being too creative. Yep. That that doesn't happen as much as as there are people who believe like, oh, I don't know uh if we should do this, uh you know, this is gonna be too much. It's like there's a general expectation from clients that uh they need to rein you in. In fact, I think they're disappointed if they don't feel the need to rein you in.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. You know, you always say when we sit in an onboarding meeting or like when we're about to do the thing, we always say, I just want to be really clear. We're gonna take some big swings. Absolutely. Yeah. If you don't like the direction, but somebody has to do something.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um I always used to uh look at it as uh w with anything, it was always like, uh because somebody would say, Oh, we should just present one idea. And it's like, unless you're really, really, really, really good. And there are some agencies who are really good who are able to do this. And I've talked to people, I'm like, that's amazing. Good for you. Um Usually it's two. I've always been a fan of three. One, I like prime numbers. But I also like three because it's like I would always tee it up as like iteration, evolution, revolution. We're gonna do an iteration, which means we're gonna take the safe space. This is where you are now from a concept, and we're gonna go, uh, we're gonna push a little bit. And you're gonna look at it and you're gonna go like, yeah, yeah, a little safe. Might make you a little nervous, but it's pretty close to where you are. Then there's evolution. And evolution is like, here's where you are, we're gonna just go like this and we're gonna put you over here. A little bit further. And usually this is the thing that makes them nervous. As soon as they see it, it's like, oh, you just went outside of my safe space. And you can start to see that they have that sense of panic worry. And then you say, okay, now we're gonna go with this third idea. And that third idea uh serves, you know, a couple purposes. One when I see this, the revolution idea. This is like, okay, just no holds barred, you know. Now, when I say that, you still have to use, you know, gravity has to apply. You have to stay within the budget. You have to stay within legal and physical constraints. You can't come up with something that is entirely un uh impossible or unachievable or undoable. But you would say, here's revolution. Now, when they see that, also in that middle one they were nervous about, they're a-okay with it. And they're like, Yeah, let's do that. And it's like, great. The other thing that this achieves is that this gets the team, you know, one, excited, everybody's excited, and it reminds them of why they hired you, which is I want to see that. And if you didn't give them that, they're gonna be like, well, why didn't you think of doing this? And that to me is like the kiss of death from any client is to wonder, what is too far?

SPEAKER_01

That's an incredible framework for presenting iteration, evolution, revolution. Is that a dance special?

SPEAKER_00

It is a dance special. Boy, I don't know that I could say that it's that unique. It's just like there's A, B, or C.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's a fun way to phrase it. And I think like it's anything that helps you get into the right mindset is valuable. And I think it it when you're forced to do something that is way off the reservation, it gets you out of that derivative me too sort of mindset that tanks agencies.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell It it it's helpful because it allows it it allows for exploration. The stuff that comes out of that third idea. And I've always said and I've had people say, well, that's just a waste of an idea. We're just wasting time. And it's like, but that's not true. Because one, something out of that might actually, you know, you know, seep over into this one over here. But again, when the clients see it, they go, wow, man, they they they they took it out there. And that's what they want to see.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell Well, I mean it signals that a group of people sat in a room and cared enough to think and throw stuff against the wall and get it into a place that's presentable.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. I mean, yeah, you don't make it so ludicrous that it's yeah. I and I've and I've seen that where it's like uh it could go wrong and and a concept is like, oh, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna do this thing and uh space. And it's like, well, I mean, but we can't. We can't go to space. And it's like, and I hate that whole thing where it's like, well, there's no such thing as a bad idea. And it's like, nah, there is. We need bad ideas. That bad ideas are important because that's how we separate which ones are good. You know? Yeah. For me, it's just the just don't pop somebody's balloon. You can try to figure out how to make it float. You know?

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell, What's the most radical idea like pitch you've ever gotten signed off?

SPEAKER_00

Um man. Uh I uh what is the the the furthest one? Um well the uh recently there was a a client who uh they're an oral care probiotic now. I know that sounds exciting, and you you definitely you right on the edge of your seat. So um when I say that, it is like a probiotic, but literally for your mouth, not for your gut. Because most people think probiotics, you know, oh you they they do a gut health thing, you know. It's the the biome. Um but this is actually one for your oral biome, you know, which is all about uh, you know, bacteria, good bacteria versus bad bacteria. And I remember uh this is one of those things where it's like we we had the project and we were working on it, and we came up with something, and they were happy with it. And it was really uninspiring and just kind of boring. And it reminded me of every other mouth thing I've ever seen where I'm just like, uh, you know, and I've never been a I like I always just kind of get queasy. Just think about like, I don't have a mouth issue or anything, but it was just like, ugh, you know, it's just kind of gross and and and it doesn't really explain anything. And here we are trying to explain this uh oral probiotic when a lot of people don't fully understand what probiotics are, and now we gotta go. It's like we went so deep into the science of it that we didn't even go, no, this is what this thing does. And so we went back and came up with uh uh an extension of the idea. It's like, let's just go back and do it again. We started over. And because we knew that there was like a uh, you know, all-team meeting, you know, the PR people and everybody else from all you know parts of the company and other agencies. And we came in uh with uh a campaign uh that uh basically said uh we called everything out. Like we called out uh you know the toothbrush uh and we called out mouthwash because I remember the president, she was talking about it, and she was very radical. She was kind of like uh, you know, people don't even need a floss. And I'm like, I don't know that dentists agree with you, but she was just but this belief that like if you only did this, this is all you would need to do. I'm like, well, you know, maybe there's a middle. And so we said that we had came up with this campaign that basically uh the idea was your toothbrush is a filthy liar. And it was very bold and yellow and black and obnoxious and shouty and and took it into a totally different place of, you know, sort of like explaining like, yeah, your toothbrush, it does an okay job, but um, you know, it's just kind of brushing stuff away. It doesn't really solve the problem. And then we uh took it a step further, and this actually came from her, so I knew we'd get sign-off, even though it it immediately made everybody else in the room freak out. Your mouthwash is a murderer. And it is essentially saying that your your mouthwash kills everything, not just the bad bacteria in your mouth. This is where tooth decay and gum disease and bad breath and yellow and all that. That's from bad bacteria. But it also kills the good bacteria, and you need good bacteria to defeat the bad bacteria. And the whole idea behind the probiotic was you replenish the good and it beats up the bad and kicks them out. And so we had a lot of more fun with it and got away from instead of trying to be clinical and science says this and having doctors. Uh and and they because they would have they had a whole team of doctors who would share all this stuff, and I was like, okay, you know, that's not going to work because it's not explaining why this matters. And so that was one of those things, and it's not that long ago, but it was a uh just sort of like, what if we just uh ditched the science and the expected route and the safe space and you know remember people don't know what this is or why it matters, and just get to like a the conversation of like, you know, we're gonna speak plainly and directly and just say, here's a thing, and and this is why it's important.

SPEAKER_01

Trevor Burrus That's right when you said the product category, I thought, oh, they probably wanted to go clinical.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Sure, because they had the science. And uh and it was a patented formula. So it was like, well, we've got to talk about that patented formula. And and they always would say, oh, you gotta connect the dots. And it was like, you have so many dots, and I have 30 seconds. Can we maybe skip some and say, find out more? I love find out more. Because find out more gets you past that part of the story. Yeah, it satisfies the clinical people.

SPEAKER_01

It's like let's bury that later. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's there.

SPEAKER_01

And it'll be beautiful. It'll be glorious. A whole page of all of that stuff. Trevor Burrus, Jr. It's like I bet that exists somewhere on the Alipop or Poppy websites, but 99% of people suck at that down have no idea what a gut biome is myself exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Trevor Burrus, Jr. Yeah, but that's the thing, is like you you're assuming that people can differentiate between this uh biome and that biome. You know, uh most people don't know what regular probiotics are. Now you're saying this is a different one. It keeps it stays in your mouth.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell No, you don't want like someone to have to do a research project before they rip something off your shelf.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So uh that was that was one. Uh you know, there's been a handful of things. There's been uh weird ones and And uh ones that should have happened. Um, you know, I'll always there was a period of time when I worked uh at an agency in Dallas and uh one of our clients was uh PepsiCo. Uh so uh it was PepsiCo, which meant uh Yum brands and Free Delay uh and Taco Bell and all that. And I I was uh at this uh agency, it was right around um and a lot of what I did was like uh my job was reading scripts and saying, hey, because that's when everybody was doing uh movie tie-ins, uh mid to late 90s. And they would be like, hey, read the script. Do you think we should partner with this? And I remember I read the script to Godzilla, the the the bad one, the the Matthew Broderick. Yes, we know what the one is. And um and I read the script and I'm like, this is terrible. Um but that you know they're like, well, we're gonna do this thing, you know, with the the the uh Taco Bell dog, and we think it's gonna uh take off. And then I read the script to Batman and Robin, and I'm like, this is terrible. You know, and I just remember like script after script. I'm like, I don't know. I don't think you would tie in. And at the same time, I was trying to get them to do something with Scooby-Doo, and they're like, nah, nobody watches Scooby-Doo. I'm like, uh I I I think you we might want to, you know, rethink that because Scooby-Doo is still sort of this, you know, you've got the nostalgia factor, but then you also had the new stuff that was called.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Uh you know, it's like, don't forget, you know, it's it's it's the the it was the Q the Q rating was incredibly high, way higher than they thought. But they're like, okay, well just come up with some stuff for um Fridoy with Godzilla. And and I don't know, uh some people might have heard this story, but I I said, I got a couple ideas. And I talked to the Fritole uh food doctors, and I said, Hey, um, can you make really tiny uh Doritos? And they're like, well, like, what do you mean? I go, like little tiny ones, little little tiny triangles. You know, because I was like, you know, if I was I want people to feel like they're Godzilla and they're getting a bag of these little Doritos. They're like, Yeah, we could probably do that. But he was honestly, you know, they probably just all you know be dust. Okay. And then I said, then here's the other idea. Can you just make one giant one? Just one big Dorito. And you open up the bag and that's all it is. Just a Godzilla-sized Dorito. And he's like, Yeah, yeah, we could we could do that. We'd have to figure out, you know, they were figuring out like how can they uh protect it? And they were like, I was gonna need more air in the bag. You know how people are about air in the bag, but there was a reason for. And um yeah, I was really bummed that I couldn't make that happen because I'm still convinced that like anybody would feel pretty powerful if they could just like walk around with one giant, you know. The king Dorito. Just a giant, like pizza slice-sized Dorito.

SPEAKER_01

Um I obviously what movie do you think I was thinking of when you were talking about like Pepsi product tie-ins? Oh gosh. Do you like the scene where they were like over the top. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were part of that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's there was that whole period was I was also uh this was like this is the same agency that did the um Pepsi points. Uh the Harrier Oh, that one. Legendary before me. Didn't do it. Didn't do it. Uh yeah, that was all that same uh period. All of that happened around the same time. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01

It's funny they're just like these trends that pop up by era. And you've seen a lot of those.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah. It's it I mean, it is i i where we are now with uh you know TikTok and TikTok and Instagram and everything else is just like this idea of everything uh uh and brands, especially uh, you know going straight after influencers. It was sort of like um, you know, because in one of my lives, because my entire and I I mentioned I my entire career has been just one big bouncy red ball, sometimes like happy fun ball, but uh which don't touch happy fun ball, don't approach happy fun ball. If you don't know what it is, look it up. Um but uh yeah, you know, whereas like it went one direction and then it smacked against the wall, and because of that it went a different direction. And so a lot of times things in my life have sort of worked in tandem. Like I was working uh uh as a um, you know, I started as a copywriter slash receptionist. I was either a a good writer or a bad receptionist because that turned into a full-time writer after a few months. Uh and then started reviewing movies on a local radio station. And then because of that, that thing and this thing combined, I got a different job. And it just kind of these things, like one thing would lead to another, like sort of side thing as a result of this thing. So I've bounced my whole career is just bouncing back and forth. Um and I would love to say strategically, but but not but uh uh m movie obsession and movie tying and all that stuff has always been sort of like part of uh my you know germinating uh inside of me to bring that to you know, just pop cultural awareness has always just kind of just been a natural state. So um yeah, movies, uh reviewing movies and um I I re like I said, I reviewed movies uh at a radio station, and that got me into uh going on press junkets and stuff like that, and going to press junkets. So I got to go to like Beverly Hills, they put you up in the Beverly Hills for season, they have you watch a movie, and then you all sit around, you get to interview the stars and the the creatives behind it. That's so different. Yeah to me, that was the influencers of back then is the same thing because I see people crying foul now, especially if anybody saw it, you know, there was Pedro Pascal uh standing around at Galaxy's Edge in Disneyland, wearing the Mandalorian armor, and people are uh riding the Millennium Falcon ride, and then oh he takes off his his helmet and his Pedro Pascal, and people are all mad because it's influencers, and they're like, oh, of course they have, you know, and everybody's like in shock. Well, of course they're in shock. I mean, the the visceral reaction to seeing like, oh, that it's actually him. Uh whether they're influencers or regular Schmoes is fine. But I think the the Schmo thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01

We've been doing the influencer thing for like didn't like wasn't De Beers was like figured out how to sell diamond engagement rings through celebrities like this is like a hundred years ago. Yeah, this is nothing new.

SPEAKER_00

It is shocking that that like I don't know, there's just this weird anti-influencer uh culture. And I think I think the reason for it is it is just good old-fashioned jealousy.

SPEAKER_01

I God, I that's funny. We've had the same conversation. It's just like it's in your face and people are just generally burnt out and frustrated and like the why not me? Yeah, because there's random guy who does like this thing, like the KB Lane or whatever, is a billionaire.

SPEAKER_00

Uh there's the uh are you talking about the guy who like has the reactions? Oh that. Yeah, he's but he's good. Yeah, it's good for him. Yes. And it's funny. If somebody else does it now, we all know that they're like, eh, you're doing this. It's like, well, what is the guy? Uh not Adam Scott. There's a guy who has he just basically has videos of people falling down and then he has his reaction. And then I've seen that guy like on the red carpet and somebody runs up to him and it's just the difference between being derivative and coming up with something.

SPEAKER_01

It's just like you have to create something.

SPEAKER_00

Good for them.

SPEAKER_01

I think there's a reasonable criticism of like I'm a big pop culture guy as well, and I have things that I like. You know, like if I watch like WWE, for example, the influencer world kind of makes everything an ad and the ad bleep. But that's always been that way. Businesses have pushed products and we're just living the same thing.

SPEAKER_00

Well the expectation was, you know, you know, they flew me out to watch Star Trek Generations. The expectation was I was going to give it a glowing review. Now it was great. The experience, of course, was fantastic. And yes, being able to sit down with Patrick Stewart, uh Sir Patrick Stewart, sorry. He wasn't a Sir at the time. But uh uh was incredible. But I also remember being like, we're just a bunch of d dorks from local radio stations across the country, you know, and a round table with uh uh Royal Shakespearean uh uh actor.

SPEAKER_01

You know, moments like that are so funny in life. It's just like what ha what's happening today?

SPEAKER_00

You know, the the the Star Trek thing was a great it was just like watching it happen. And I remember I was like, we all walk in and everybody kind of sat away from the main mic, and I'm like, hell with that? I mean, I'll sit right next to them.

SPEAKER_01

Once in a lifetime.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was like, you guys are crazy. But I remember different actors would come in and how they would work the room and how they wouldn't work the room, and and like Jonathan Frakes, uh no if you're a Star Trek person, number one Riker, next generation, yeah. Um just a gregarious, wonderful, great guy. He directed the movie, and this was his first uh, you know, his this was his directorial debut. And you just couldn't not like the guy. He the guy was just great. And he you could tell, like he was just one of those those people, and he's still, I see him in interviews, and he's just like, man, that guy, he's a good dude. Um Patrick Stewart, you know, was like a whole other thing. But the funny thing, the reason I bring it up is because like everybody started handing around in this notebook and writing stuff down, and they handed it to me, and it was all the station call letters for all the stations. They wanted Patrick Stewart to do like like stingers. You know, and you say, This is Patrick Stewart, and you're listening to KC95, engage. And that was terrible. I need I need a lot more time um to get there. But uh but I and I they're like, Yeah, give it to him. And I'm like, you guys are nuts, and there's no way I'm gonna give this actor a bunch of like station call letters, and also there's no way that he's going to do it. I'm not asking him to read all of the Sir Patrick's words. Yeah, I was like, they're not doing that. So then I see the notebook make it, you know, I just put it down. And I'm like, no, no. And I put it down. And then all of a sudden I see the book going back around the table the other way. And the guy on the other side uh starts to hand it to him. And man, his handler came out of nowhere. I don't know if he was like in a secret compartment. That guy popped up and he goes, Oh, we'll we'll do this later. Good Patrick's like, oh yeah, because he's looking at it.

SPEAKER_01

Now that was a good Patrick story.

SPEAKER_00

And I just remember being like, what is wrong with you people?

SPEAKER_01

Ugh Uh Doug gave me the one-minute sign. I have to end with one question.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

What is a movie that you think people haven't seen that they have to see? Um if you're a movie guy.

SPEAKER_00

People haven't seen it that they have to see. Ugh. Well, see. Why is it Galaxy Quest? Um You know, that is fair because Galaxy Quest is wonderful. However, I will say Galaxy Quest has a documentary and has multiple uh releases, uh special editions, it's on 4K. Uh uh I will say Big Trouble and Little China. Great answer. Because uh, you know, still uh we're uh in July will be the 40th anniversary of Big Trouble in Little China. See, I'm sitting on the edge of my scene. I'm passionate about that. No, uh that is John Carpenter and uh starring Kurt Russell. Who couldn't do no wrong? But um Kurt Russell is one of those guys I saw, you know, on a press junk. It wasn't for the movie I was uh seeing. Nicest guy in the world.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell The basketball scene and Escape from New York.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, Escape from LA.

SPEAKER_01

LA hilarious.

SPEAKER_00

Well, yeah. So Escape from LA is Escape from New York. Uh and literally it's the same movie, just in LA. But I still appreciate it. I just don't appreciate it as much as the original. But uh no, uh big trouble in in Little China. It's a genre mashup. It is a little bit of everything, and it just did not hit uh with the audiences. It's a massive cult classic now. Uh still needs a 4K release. Uh The Rock was, I'm sorry, Dwayne Johnson was, I think he's still The Rock. The Rock was uh talking about uh reviving it and something that was sort of like a spiritual successor, which was like, oh, does that mean you're not Jack Burton and it's like a pseudo-sequel? And I was just like, no, just no, don't do that.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'll commit to watching it and giving you my forward view.

SPEAKER_00

So you've not seen this?

SPEAKER_01

I haven't seen it. I conflated it with I Love Trouble with Nick Nolte and Julia Roberts. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolutely not that. No. If you like if you like uh a uh action hero who isn't, um he's really not very good. And I mean that like he's he's a he's a good guy, but he's kind of an oaf. Um he's not very strong. Uh he's outwitted and spends a lot of the the battles not uh you know either on his back or knocked out. Um and you like wire foo uh you know, so you like uh a little bit. It's a it's a genre mashup. Uh it is pure of that period though, the soundtrack. Everything about it is like is just like a when you see it now, it's like a love letter too, like a a period of time that that's that's gone.

SPEAKER_01

Um that's enough of a sell for me. Um this was awesome. This flew by. I couldn't believe when he gave me like the five minute and one minute.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not surprised. I just start talking and I go to a fugue state, and I'm like afterwards I'll say uh what did I say?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I have to is Happy Funball Ren and Stimpy?

SPEAKER_00

No. That was the shiny red button. Happy Fun Ball is uh one of the old SNL commercials. Uh and it's most of the commercial is you know, they're like happy fun ball. And then the rest of the commercial is nothing but disclaimers. Don't approach Happy Fun Ball, don't look directly at Happy Fun Ball. Uh it was the Phil Hartman years.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, better. I can like hear his voice now.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Just check it out because uh it still holds up. It's one of those commercials where it's like the the whole gag is is the all of the which you you watch any medical commercial now, especially those ones that like play on YouTube, where like if you don't hit the skip button, which I'm starting to like let play, because I'm like, I'm just curious how long this thing's gonna go on. And there was one that was a uh and it was Justin Long reading uh some disclaimers, and it went on for like five minutes. And I was like, good lord, what is this? I at that point I was like, I don't know what this medicine is for, but it seems like helps your allergies might freaking die, bud. Everything about it. I mean, it was just like one thing after another.

SPEAKER_01

Your entire you know, I love Justin Long going from the doctor in idiocracy to the medicine commercial.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it was it was that. Uh although he and uh John Hodge are have teamed up uh the old Mac and PC guys are in another commercial for something else.

SPEAKER_01

So I forgot about that one. So you have a freak recall of pop culture.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell It's unfortunate.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You use a lot of files. Like I always wonder why do I use file storage the way that I do?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell It is sort of like, you know, um there's a a certain one or two categories at Trivia Night where I am like the golden child, and then I just should leave.

SPEAKER_01

Shiny not spill the ringer.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's like, oh, and now we're gonna talk about sports. I'm gonna go and it's unfortunate because I have come from a family of of sp uh sports fans and sports lovers, and I just like I don't know, I've always been the odd one out on that, and I don't know. Uh unless it's a movie, and then I might know.

SPEAKER_01

We'll cover sports next time. Great.

SPEAKER_00

I appreciate it, thank you for having me.