Who Speaks for Us?

This week, GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick and her co-hosts, journalist Gabby Deutch, Rabbi Diana Fersko, and novelist Esther Chehebar discuss what Jewish leadership looks like today. Reflecting on the death of Abe Foxman and the fractured moment in Jewish life, the GOLDA Girls spotlight people who have stepped up to offer meaningful, clear-eyed leadership in different ways. They include: 

Sarah Hurwitz, speechwriter and author of As a Jew and Here All Along. (Gabby pick)

Mijal Bitton, spiritual leader and writer of the Committed Substack. (Esther pick)

Rachel Goldberg Polin, mother of Hersh Goldberg-Polin and the author of When We See You Again. (Diana pick)

Avital Chizik-Goldschmidt, writer and cofounder/rebbetzin of The Altneu. (SB pick) 

GOLDA Girls is presented by Nu Reads, a new Jewish book subscription series curated by the Jewish Book Council that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. Use code NuGolda at checkout for 15% off your subscription. Visit NuReads.org to get started today.

This episode is also sponsored by: 

• The Mindich Fellowship for Jewish Fiction, part of Miami Book Fair’s Emerging Writer Fellowship. If your novel or fiction project centers Jewish life, culture, or themes, this is an incredible year-long opportunity to develop that work in community. Apply by May 31, 2026 at miamibookfair.com/program/emerging-fellows/.
• Joyva, a fourth generation family business that crafts tahini, halvah and confections in Brooklyn, NY. Get your today.

GOLDA Girls is a production of GOLDA Media. Our executive producer is Ariel Shapiro. Editing by POLDHU. 

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Transcript

The New Jewish Leadership

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Before we get to today's show, I want to tell you about our presenting sponsor. New Reads is a Jewish book subscription service that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. Curated by the Jewish Book Council, this collection features some of my favorite authors like Allegra Goodman, Sam Sussman, and more. With New Reads, you're not just getting books, you're getting access to exclusive experiences with authors and a community built on a shared passion for Jewish storytelling. I had the chance to interview Fran Fabritzky, author of the current New Reads selection, Porcupines. The novel is a fascinating, complicated story of a mother and daughter finding their way in early aughts, Los Angeles. The mother immigrated from Hungary, and her daughter Mila is determined to piece together her mother's past. I loved getting into the book and its unexpected perspective on Jewish life with Fran. Check it out on the Golda Girls feed. Newreads is offering Golda Girls listeners 15% off their subscription. Just use the code NUGOLDA at checkout. Visit newreads.org. That's n-u-r-e-a-d-s.org to get started today. Golda Gang, welcome back to the podcast Golda Girls, a show for Jewish women with a lot to say. And we have so much to say this week. I'm joined by my three wonderful, brilliant genius co-hosts, journalist Gabby Deutsch of Jewish Insider. Hello, everyone. Novelist Esther Shahabar. Hey. And Rabbi Diana Fersco. We're back. I do feel like it's a lot of pressure on the three of you to have something like witty and quippy to say every time I introduce you. Should we just say hello?

SPEAKER_00 1:41

I want to say the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Which is what? Like a catchphrase, which it be. Hi.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Present. I mean on individual catchphrases. We can like, you know, once we develop bands and they can pick which one of us they like best, exactly. They can come up to us and like use the tagline on us. It's a next misassignment.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

I love that. Episode three, I'm gonna remind everyone listening the way the show works. We start off talking about the things that we can't stop talking about. Then we go into Ask Golda, where a listener gets to write in with a question, and then we end with Good for the Jews, a little sweet moment of some lightness and brightness in our in our Jewish lives right now. So to kick us off, I'm gonna start with some sad news, which is that Abe Foxman, who was the longtime head of the Anti-Defamation League or ADL, died this week at 86. And I have to say that I think for a lot of us, Abe Foxman was sort of this like figurehead where like if someone said something anti-Semitic, like a celebrity or a rapper or an actor, they would like go on a tour of a Holocaust museum with Abe Foxman. And that's like how I think the broader culture got to know his name. And I was really surprised because I realized until I read all these obituaries, I didn't actually know much about him and how much of like a really a big deal he was and a major force he was within sort of like the Jewish institutional world to get to that point where you could sort of be the call everyone makes once they've gotten in trouble for sort of like saying something anti-Semitic. And Abe Foxman has a really amazing story, which is that he's born in 1940 in Europe. His parents, to protect him, leaves him with his nanny, and he basically gets baptized as a Catholic, and he's raised in Lithuania until he's reunited with his parents in 1944. They get to the US in 1950, he goes to Yeshiva Flapbush, which again, like I didn't really know any of this. Yeah, shout out to Esther, shout out to Brooklyn, Brooklyn Jews.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Yeah, Abe Foxman, I was reading some of the obituaries, and you know, for for myself as someone who is perhaps a somewhat newer entrant to the Jewish media scene, in that he was at the ADL starting in the 1960s, which was several decades before I was born. You know, I I always knew of Abe Foxman as this kind of larger-than-life character in in the Jewish world, and someone who, you know, as you said, Stephanie, kind of had the moral gravitas to be able to speak with authority about what is anti-Semitism and what isn't anti-Semitism, but even more than that to build bridges and help people understand. And he was someone, as you said, who survived the Holocaust. And I think that was a really important part of the role that he played. He wasn't just this person who had been in the Jewish world for a long time and knew everyone, but the fact that he had come from Europe, had family members who died, who had this experience where his life could have gone in a very different direction due to anti-Semitism, gave him this credibility that we don't see as much these days. Uh and I think one of the things I've been thinking about in response to this is now that so many Holocaust survivors have, unfortunately, just due to the passage of time, passed away, and we don't have those voices who are able to speak with authority and offer their own points of view, that there's there's almost a vacuum in the Jewish community.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Gabby, I I feel like his death uh, you know, represents, and may his memory be for a blessing. I feel like it represents another sign of the end of a certain era in Jewish American life. The end of the post-Holocaust era, the end of sort of um Jews building these national organizations that we now consider legacy organizations. Like they were definitely like they've had their peak, um, and now they're broadly in decline. Not all of them, but many are in decline. And um they're also the end of sort of like the suburban sprawl of Jews, where we as en masse like moved to the suburbs and built these gleaming synagogues and other institutions to support Jewish life. And it you're also getting at something deeper, which is it's the symbolic of the end of an era of a certain type of leadership. Like when Abe Foxman said something, almost everyone listened. And you just don't have that anymore. Like our leadership now in the Jewish world and probably beyond is just shrunken in a certain way. It's like fragmented, and you know, people are tweeting, and it just feels smaller.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

I totally agree. It's like he was the arbiter of like, there was one person who basically said, like, that's anti-Semitic, and then you knew what you had to do. You sort of like would learn from him or do something. I remember um when I was at Tablet and I was a writer, it was when um John Galliano, the fashion designer, was having all these like drunken outbursts um that were anti-Semitic. And he sort of did this like rehabilitation with the Jewish community, and it was through Abe Foxman. And like, I think in some ways he it it almost was so ubiquitous of a name that it, I'm sure like SNL referenced Abe Foxman at some point. It was really like the guy. I feel like so much of our conversations are now are like who gets to speak for the Jews. Like, I do think some of this is like a democratization of voices, but I also think we'd agree that like there there's no one voice coming from the top anymore that represents all of us.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

I think that something that he represented is he was a conduit between people who weren't Jewish and who may have done wrong and people who were Jewish, but he also would bring the interests and the voices of the Jewish community to people outside of the community and served as a bridge. So I look now at, let's say, social media, and people all the time will tell me about some voice where they get all of their Jewish news or commentary. But, you know, you have people on Instagram who have huge followings where they might have, let's say, 30,000 people, but to those 30,000 people who are like perhaps rabid fans of theirs, um, that's enough to have a brand and to have a community. The way that, you know, we all think about who those leaders are has to be different. Like the kind of people that we've all seen sort of blow up after October 7th, you know, are they trying to represent Jews to other people to make us look good? Or is it more about kind of rallying the base? Like there's different qualities of leadership there and when, you know, a lot of people feel quite under attack still.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

This is a conversation that I feel like I've been having more and more with friends and family of mine. What do we look for in a leader? Um, what do we hope to gain from leaders? Are we looking to have our minds changed or our, you know, our horizons broadened, or are we looking to live in an echo chamber where our thoughts and opinions are validated? The first thing that I want to say, and I've learned this reading obituaries about Abe Foxman, is that he was vehemently against cancel culture, right? He was someone who believed in forgiveness. Um, he was someone who really believed in changing minds. And I think that what we've seen is like, is the fracturing of that. There are obviously some anti-Semites who come out and they say the most vile things. And, you know, we have seen this huge um, you know, see Zionist influencers that have like sprung up post-October 7th. And a conversation that I've been having at least is, you know, to steal a line from our podcast, like, is this good for the Jews? And I think it's a complicated answer, right? I think a lot of the times we we look to certain people or we look to social media or certain influencers to validate some of our opinions, some of our feelings. But I think it's very easy to get lost in that. And I think it's it's becoming easier and easier to to get stuck in the the tribalism of it all and and you know, to not, as a Voxman did, extend a hand to the other side or you know, to try and see it from an outsider perspective. Are there any leaders, thinkers, writers who you're looking to to fill that vacuum? And is there anyone that's particularly inspiring right now for any of you?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Okay, the answer is yes, but before I get to that, I'm gonna start with the negative because I feel a little like this conversation, it's personal to me, right? Because my job is leader. And I feel very what you guys are saying, it resonates with me a lot. And I know what you mean, Stephanie, about like social media making the ability to speak more democratic, but I'm also wary of unearned leadership. And earning following is not the same as earning leadership. And I feel like in our culture right now, we have lots of people that are like very certain they're leaders and they like claim the mantle of it. You mentioned influencers, Esther, but for me, I think of like late-night talk show hosts that I find extremely like sanctimonious and very certain that they should comment on morality. But I never hear them reference any kind of moral grounding. They're never like in my moral tradition, X, Y, Z, you know, where does it come from? And that really bothers me. Um, and it bothers me most when they feel comfortable talking about the Jews in one way or another. And that's just almost a cultural tick right now. Um so I I think for me, there are just a lot of people that have announced themselves as leaders, but maybe they haven't earned it. And that bothers me.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

I also feel like, Diana, in the Jewish context, it should very much bother you. You're like, I've I that's what I do. Like, that's your job is to stand in before the community and help them understand the moment based on millennia of, you know, like the traditions and the texts and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

So let me let me like give it a shot then. I think the moment right now is what I consider like an Esther moment. It's not really about the loudest, most public voices. And in fact, sometimes I'm wary of those voices, specifically because they're so loud and so public. And I'm like, really? You still have more to say? Like, you're still not listening? Okay. But I have a lot of colleagues and friends and Jewish professionals that are quietly working to ensure the future of the Jewish people without telling everyone about it. So there are hundreds of Jewish professionals that are holding their organizations to become not anti-Semitic. Organizations that really could become publicly anti-Zionist and publicly hostile to the Jews, and they're doing the work inside to say, like, no, guys, that's not the way we're gonna go. Um, and like Esther, like they're kind of hidden. You you don't see them.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Diana, it's um funny hearing you say that because I was thinking really along the exact same lines when we're having this conversation about leadership. I I wasn't thinking necessarily of someone who is leading a synagogue or an organization, but my first thought was after October 7th, all of the people who, like you said, suddenly found themselves in situations in their day jobs that they've had for years that that became hostile. And for me, as a reporter at a Jewish outlet, a lot of people were reaching out to me after October 7th and saying, How are you doing? It must be so hard. Of course, it was hard and it was emotional like it was for all of us. But the one thing that I never had to worry about after October 7th is how I would be treated professionally for being someone who likes Israel and who doesn't want to feel pressured to disavow Israel or or say horrible things about it. I never had to deal with that at my job in a way that so many people I'm close to have. And the ones who who have chosen to put themselves out there and speak up when they didn't have to, or to organize and form Jewish community in in the workplace or on campuses in places where it could affect their job prospects, it could affect their social lives. Like there's so many people in our community who are doing amazing things in that respect. To name a couple of people who I have looked to as leaders, one who comes to mind here in Washington, who's a writer who you probably all have read, is Sarah Hurwitz, who wrote this incredible book called Here All Along about her journey of discovering Judaism and questioning why she had never really done that sooner. She released a new book called As a Jew, which is sort of a history of anti-Semitism and the way that Jews have been othered throughout history and explains these things, and she does it in this amazing way. Um, you know, she's not leading an institution, but I just was glad to see someone doing that and writing something that's a resource to so many people.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Yeah, I love that. And the reason why Sarah Horitz's work is so effective is because she's literally a speechwriter. Her job is to communicate ideas from people and like bring them to the masses. And so, like, just like she did for Michelle Obama, so too will she do like for the Jewish story. And I think that that to me like really picks up on Diana what you're talking about, this Esther moment. Like, that is a specific skill that not everyone has. And so that's why reading her books, you're like, oh my God, I never thought of things like this. Like, she is such a digestible way to explain things. And so, like, there is someone who used a very particular thing that they were good at to like not like contribute to the cause, but to basically further this this ecosystem of ideas and exchange.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

I I think that leaders are often people with subject matter expertise that they've grown over a period of years. So, um, for example, you know, what you were saying, um, Stephanie, makes me think of um Alan Morinas, who is the um founder of the Musar Institute, and he wrote a book called The Shabbat Effect. And basically, if anyone has ever heard of Musar, which is a Jewish um spiritual tradition, it's because of him and his research. He has all the secular accolades you could imagine. He was a Fulbright scholar, he went to Oxford, you know, scholar, etc. And he did exactly what you're describing, which is he put his amazing skills to use, like for the Jewish people. That's leadership. And then he produced a book about it, multiple books, but his latest one is basically about how Shabbat can change your life if practiced properly, and like it's compelling. So I think that's leadership when you take years and have people follow you, but also you have like something deep to say, something real.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

And I think that's the issue with like the influencer culture in this moment. And because, like, first of all, I totally understand why people on social media were so hungry for Jewish voices because all they were seeing was just like rampant anti-Israel footage and this and that. And like, I totally get why sort of a bunch of people sprung up in the post-10-7 vacuum, really, of like Jewish content. But like, what more are they offering? This is not a takedown of influencers. Like, of course, you're not gonna like every single thing they have to say. What I am hopeful for in this moment is that we can sort of find like our more grounding resources, right? All of these questions, we sort of need deeper answers than just like these people on social media. Bless them, right? Because it's really hard to get on social media and say pro-Jewish stuff. I was gonna say, I thought you were an influence. I was recently referred to as a Jewish influencer. I was like, I was like, no, I use social media to like share the things I'm doing elsewhere, right? Like I'm sharing Golda. This is like a thing that I'm creating. And I think that like if you're just a person talking on social media and that's all you have, that's that's not permanent in a way that I think we want permanence right now.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I first just want to say, I think the word we're all grasping for is earned, right? Like leadership has to feel earned, whether that's through experience or research or learning or years of just, you know, living a certain type of life. It needs to feel like it was earned, right? You have something to say that was inspired that's from something that was like difficult or hard. That's how I feel, anyways. Someone who I look to, I have been loving uh Michal Bitan's Substack I committed. Yes, her Parsha emails are so good. I love it. So good. I went to yeshiva until the age of 18, and I was in a dual curriculum school, and I'll admit that I I resented a lot of it, right? I was like, you know, I was a typical teenage kid who wasn't necessarily like throwing myself into my Judaic studies. And whether it's because of October 7th or the obvious rise in anti-Semitism, I, you know, I live a very Jewish life, but I felt an emptiness where I, you know, as far as like what I can name now was like Torah studies go, right? Like when's the last time I like refamiliarized myself with the stories that are still an integral part of my life as a practicing Jewish person? Um so Michal is a writer and researcher, and her newsletter just offers like this really contemporary spin on, you know, some of our most like prized, valued Jewish teachings. And Rachel Goldberg-Poland is another one. Um I think she's become a mother to all of us in her you know tremendous pain and tremendous loss. To say that she's an inspiring figure is is the understatement of the century. She is just like a shining light and an example of like resilience and strength and love. So I I don't think there's like a shortage of you know leaders. I just think it's about choosing wisely.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

I I agree and like guarding your mind. You know, like don't let yourself be so influenced that you, you know, can't look up and find like the real leaders, like Rachel Goldberg Poland is right there. And I'll say if you're missing me, I'll be tone, of course we all are, um, but we're happy for her. Um, she did write a piece in Sapir that I recommend to you, Esther, which is called Um, The Future is Sephardic. And it's yeah, it's super interesting and it's it's it's I mean, it's wonderful. It's about embracing God and not overly intellectualizing and being traditional. You know, read it.

SPEAKER_03 20:38

I will. I want to throw one more name into the ring here. Another woman, Abital Chizek Goldschmidt. She is a writer and also the Rebson co-founder of Altnoi Synagogue, which is this amazing new congregation, an Orthodox congregation on the Upper East Side. I've been a fan of her work for a long time. And then she also has this sort of like entrepreneurial building, this new synagogue with her husband, the rabbi. And she's also very much a mother to her children, and she shares a lot of like the balance of all of those things and like the specific role of Rebitz in, which is so interesting. So I don't think we really see that necessarily. And so I find that I go to her, I love her Instagram because it's Jewishly literate, it's smart, it's thoughtful, and it's also very real. And so it's a lot about like what it's like to be a mother in this moment, but also be running a synagogue. She does a lot about like the balance of being so available to your congregation and you're there for them in any emergency, but you also sort of need to like protect yourself. And so she was on maternity leave and she was sort of like, here's who you can contact for all of the things. And she would post that on Instagram every now and then. And I think it's such a really strong example, it's sort of like a stark example of like the many draws on our time and attention and energy in this universe. And hers is so pronounced, right? Um, and so I appreciate the things that she shares. And so I think that like it's kind of funny, there's like a lot of threads. Through the types of people we're talking about. And a lot of that is like, well, most of them are women. Diana threw a man in. Thank you. Thanks for that diversity. Give me that.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Same, by the way. But the record show.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

I think it's like, let's expand the universe of the people we're listening to and the people we're sharing and like all of that, because I think that can only help us in this moment.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Just to note Stephanie on Avitel, sorry, because I had the opportunity to visit Alt New and to sit down with her in conversation. And I was blown away. I mean, Avital and her husband have built something so special with their congregation. They really, I mean, I think there was clearly a yearning for, you know, young people to feel a sense of community and to have a like a home, essentially, um, on the Upper East Side for a lot of, you know, young Jewish people who didn't have one previously. Um, they also host like a ton of single events. They're very invested in their congregants and oh yeah, they have a matchmaker. And they have lines down the block. I mean, like for these events that they host. Um, and it's it's really great to just see so many um young people so invested in their congregation, in Judaism, and in their, you know, in enriching their Jewish lives.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

And another, like a thread that's running through all these people is like real religiosity. Like, I'm not as observant as any of the people we just mentioned, and that's fine. But I think it is telling that the people we're turning towards are offering some kind of spiritual guidance, right? Like, I feel like we've also been seeing all these stories about like everyone's going to Catholic Mass, everyone wants religion in this moment. And it's like there's something to it, right? This idea that like the more uncertain the world feels, the more likely we are to turn or return to something that can anchor us in this crazy modern world we're in. And so, like, I actually think it's amazing that these people are using all these platforms that like Michal has a substack we all read. Avital is someone who's on Instagram, and it's like they're using the tools of this moment to share very ancient messages. So they're kind of influencers, but we like them. Um, but nothing called influencers.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

They're a piece of the story. These voices are all like a tapestry together, right? I I wanted to add, Stephanie, to what you were saying about looking for religion that um something that I have been working towards and failing at over the last two years is trying to do more Jewish learning. And after this conversation I had with someone a couple years ago prompted me to start thinking about reading more Jewish books, um, one of which I'm gonna shout out is by Rabbi Sharon Brouse at ECAR in LA called The Amen Effect, amazing about Jewish community and grieving and joy and all of it. Um, so I read that book and I read maybe one or two others, but I I for the last two years have had this goal of I'm gonna do some kind of weekly Torah study, which I've never done before. Um I haven't done that. Occasionally I read Michal's Substack on Fridays. She's on the leave, so now I have an excuse. Good enough.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

I was gonna say, let's forget this podcast and do Torah study. Good enough, she said.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Well, I've now now I'm I'm putting it out there into the podcast universe. Next week, Daniel Heroes. You're like my rabbi. Maybe now you can you can help me actually do this. Try one week first.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

By the way, Diana, I do feel like we should name you here because like I come I turn to you as a modern spiritual leader who is incredibly steeped in history, tradition, Torah, and like completely approachable and and really fun. And so, and I do want to say that when you first came on unorthodox and we first met, you I think you're it was your book was out or something. And I I think I just asked you a question. I was like, oh my god, this is so embarrassing to me. I was like, can't we just like do Judaism at home? Like, can't we just like like this all okay, all the stuff about the synagogue? Like, can I just do it at home on my phone? Like, can I just like import it to my house? And you were like, Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Like the literal point is being together. Yes, I think, first of all, thank you for saying nice things about me. That's so sweet. Um, yes, I still agree with myself, and sometimes I don't. Um, you can't do Judaism at home, you know, with your family, and that's enough. It's not enough. It's communal, we require a minion, we're a people, and the second we forget that we are a people, you know, disaster befalls

Ask GOLDA: Can I See a Medium?

SPEAKER_01 26:32

us. Rabbinic bike drop.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

We'll be right back with a listener question and ask Golda, but first a word from one of our sponsors. Golda Gang, I'm excited to tell you about the Mindich Fellowship for Jewish Fiction. For all the writers out there, if your novel or fiction project centers Jewish life, culture, or themes, the Mindage Fellowship for Jewish Fiction is an incredible opportunity to develop that work in community. In Miami. Miami Book Fair is offering the Mindage Fellowship for Jewish Fiction as part of their Emerging Writer Fellowship. Fellows are offered a generous stipend, mentorship, and a year-long period of uninterrupted writing time, along with a literary community to assist fellows in completing their book late manuscripts. Again, this is all in Miami. It supports a work of fiction in which Jewish life or culture plays a meaningful or central role in the narrative and character development. Jewish themes can be cultural, religious, or historical, and should shape the plot, setting, identity, or interpersonal dynamics. The work is judged on its own merit, not on the writer's personal, religious affiliation or cultural background. This opportunity is amazing and the application is free, but the deadline is coming up on May 31st. Head to MiamiBookfair.org slash program slash emerging dash fellows to apply. All right, Golda Gang, Golda Girls, it is time for our advice segment, Ask Golda, where we answer a listener question. This one comes to us from Talia in Chicago. She writes, Dear Golda, this Mother's Day was tough. My mom died a few years ago, and I'm really still struggling without her. My sister and I have talked on and off about going to a medium, but my aunt said that's not really allowed in Judaism. Is that true? And even if it is, what if we just did it anyway? All right, Talia, I might throw you to the rabbi first. Because I feel a little out of my depth. I have thoughts, but I want to go to the source, as we say.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

So I do want to know everything you think about mediums because I think they're for sure growing in popularity. And I know Jews who go and see them. I think Talia's instincts are right. The Talmud has a lot to say about like practitioners of magic, and they're almost all negative. So the Talmud very much doesn't like, you know, people that claim to do sort of um oracle type people, you know, people that believe they they can control the supernatural order of things and any kind of pathway besides um Hashem. So I think the instincts there are right. Do I think something awful will happen to her if she goes to see a medium? No. But I would be just curious about unpacking like the core of her issue a little more, like beyond the maybe I can get a fix from a medium. But I don't know. What do you guys think about psychics? I have thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Uh, which is I almost once consulted a psychic, but I did not. But it did not have anything to do with being Jewish. It's because I am a very superstitious person, which I feel is another conversation for the Golden Girls, perhaps of is it Jewish to be superstitious? And I think the answer is yes. Uh, and I felt like if I went to this psychic, I would take what this person told me at face value, and it would really freak me out. And I would feel like I had to listen to her. This was like a couple of years ago. I had a big breakup, and a friend of my mom's was like, you know, my friend recently used this psychic. She lives in Sweden, I think, but it's only $40 and you do it over FaceTime. Maybe Gabby wants to talk to her. And at the time I was like, this would be kind of funny for the bit. Um, but I ultimately decided not to and was glad I didn't. And now I know that um I am backed up by our tradition in that choice.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Gabby, I once got stopped by a palm reader in Lower Manhattan who told me that I would have two great loves. And as far as I'm concerned, I've only had one so far, and I'm currently married to him. So I'm just out here waiting for the other shoe to drop. Um, so that's my experience. I will say, Talia, one of my best friends suffered a tragic loss, and her and her mom went to see a medium. They actually went on this, it was like a whole retreat uh with this famous medium with other people who have also suffered similar losses. She talks about the experience as like one of the most cathartic experiences of her life. But I think that she went in with a very clear idea of what she wanted to get out of the experience, right? So she obviously was looking for closure. Her and her mom were looking for comfort. Um, but I think it is important that if if you are going to do this, manage expectations and almost set a framework in your mind of like, okay, what am I hoping to get out of this experience?

SPEAKER_01 31:24

And the first thing I should have said is just like, Talia, we're so sorry for your loss. That's really the core of the matter here is like, we're sorry that your mom died. That's incredibly sad.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

I'll add on a serious note, and I I echo Diana on that, um, to you, Talia, that something that I I love about being Jewish is the way that that Judaism, that our tradition treats loss, and the way that funerals and Shivas and Shloshim and all of that are called for and written out. And every year we're we're meant to spend a day honoring this person who died, and we light a yard site candle, and we go to shoal. And that's not the same thing, of course, as trying to get in touch with that person, but at least for me, you know, as as a person who has lost people that I'm close to, um, I have been able to find some comfort in that. It's not the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

What I think what we're hearing in in what is sort of like a cry for help, right? Which is someone who's sort of feeling adrift without their mother and wondering if there are sort of like new agey ways to address that. And I think that Gabby, you're so right. Like there is so much within Jewish life, within sort of like our Jewish tradition that I feel like we don't really know how to access necessarily or turn to. And I see a lot of this, like people who are talking like on separate from lost, like talking about unplugging or talking about like a digital detox. And like I find that like a lot of this is like already in Judaism, right? Like we sort of have the tools for you already. And I wonder, maybe Diana, like, are there is this another example where there's like you don't actually need to go to a medium?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

I mean, but it's like the tradition is there if you want to use it, you know? So I'm I want to just remove it from Talia because I don't want her to feel like we're, you know, I'm like coming at her. But the tradition has a great deal of wisdom and comfort and community to offer. But if you use it, well, for example, it's traditional to say Kaddish every single day when a parent dies. And a lot of Jews in the liberal world don't take advantage of that opportunity. Um, and what's interesting about that opportunity and that tradition is that you're actually required to stop mourning after a year. And that can be sometimes the hardest part. It's like, but I'm I'm so deeply in pain and I'm in this mourning part. But no, the tradition tells you like go forth to life. It doesn't like undo the incredible laws. Um, but it can provide meaningful, deep, and really like lifelong support for people struggling. Uh, and people have to really like take advantage of those moments to let Judaism be there for you.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

Diana, this may be oversharing, but it's what I do. But um, do you remember like there was a day a few years ago I had suffered a second trimester pregnancy loss, so like a fairly traumatic event, and I found myself on your couch, and I just like I was like, I need to lie down here. And you like gave me printouts from some, I don't know, some Jewish book, right? And like you, you were like, this is something that you might be able to use. And I remember in that moment feeling so grateful, first of all, for your couch. Um, I don't know how long I slept for, but I was there. I think we were like supposed to have a meeting, and I was like, I'm not feeling up to it. But I also wonder like, is there are there fine lines going back to sort of like the new age stuff? Like, I've gotten my tarot cards read. I found it to be quite an emotional experience. I want to believe, I want to do everything. Like, are there, are there like gradations of like what we say is okay? Because I do feel like there's like, we're all spiritual now. We want crystals, we want this, like we want all this stuff. Like, is this a slippery slope? Like, is anyone else, is anyone else dabbling?

SPEAKER_00 35:22

The thing, the new thing um that I'm seeing uh in my in my own community is uh people are embarking on what's being just called the journey, um, which is essentially, you know, you go upstate um uh with the shaman. The shaman that friends of mine are using is he is Jewish.

SPEAKER_03 35:47

Oh, good.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Um, and you take, you know, a very specific cocktail of drugs, psychedelic, and you go on a very spiritual and powerful journey. I have not done it, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested. Um everybody that's done it and that's come back from it has not shut up about their journey. Like they all want to tell you about it, what revelations they've had, what they've seen, what they've uncovered. Like it is, I mean, it they speak about it like it's, you know, a life-changing, altering experience, um, where they've repaired their relationship with their mother that was damaged for, you know, thought to be beyond repair, or that one of my friends saw herself coming out of the birth canal. And I mean, like, this the stories go on, but I just think it's so interesting because I'm from an Orthodox community, right? Like we follow the, you know, the rules that when when my grandparents um my grandfather passed away, my father said kadish every single day for a year, um, no matter where in the world he was, um, he found him in Yam. And and so we we we do all the things, and yet there is some yearning for like another dimension of spirituality.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

I'm gonna add uh one spiritual thing that doesn't use drugs. So sorry if that makes me not cool to the group. But um last year over Russia Shana, I was visiting my parents in Florida, and a friend of my mom's who is a therapist but also quite spiritual and does these guided meditations and sound baths. And if you haven't done a sound bath, like you're missing out when they have all these gongs that make different sounds, and they had this whole group of people from the Jewish community, and they did this guided meditation that was rooted in Rosh Hashanah and the story of Rosh Hashanah and the Jewish New Year and the Torah portion that we read that day, and using it as this like vessel for renewal and rebirth, and it was incredible.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

By the way, on the subject of sound baths, uh I went with friends to Sedona. We didn't realize it would be right before the pandemic. It was the last thing any of us did. And while we were there, we booked a sound bath because we're like, you're in the vortex of energy. And again, like I'll buy into anything. Uh Diana, give us one like what does the Torah say about like drugs and give us kick around us? I'm trying not to say a word, which is really hard for me. I see the it's a tall, it's like a struggle.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

It's a biblical struggle. On the one hand, I'm happy for my friends to pursue spirituality, and I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. On the other hand, um, I just see a lot of like uh, you know, seeking in all the wrong places, and I think like God gave us a gift of Torah, and like that's the gift. So yeah, you can find it other places, but like there there is like a source and a mean place, and I've also just seen all these sort of like thinly veiled neo-spiritual experiences like packaged as Judaism, and like I'm just kind of done with that, you know. It's like I I just want the real stuff. Like, I did study the Torah portion last week and it was amazing, you know. Like I I you go straight to the hard stuff, even, you know, it's like I I don't know. I just for me, all I want to do is like soak up more Judaism and more Jewish wisdom and hang out with more Jewish people and listen and listen and listen. And um no, like I can't a sound bath is like that's those are words that make me have a physical reaction. Don't knock it till you try it. We'll see you in Sedona either. That'll be our our Golden Girls retreat.

Good for the Jews

SPEAKER_03 39:53

All right, it's time for Good for the Jews, a segment where we share something that is, in fact, good for the Jews. This segment is brought to you by Joiva, something that is incredible for the Jews, delightful, tahiti, halva, confections, all made from a family factory in Brooklyn. It is the sweetest, it is the best. It is Joiva. All right, Esther, kick us off. What is Good for the Jews this week?

SPEAKER_00 40:15

My Good for the Jews this week is a children's book, actually, two children's books that my kids have been loving. They're by author Alan Silverberg, who is life. We love a PJ library author, delightful human being. Um, the first book is P for Pistrami, which highlights all sorts of Jewish foods using each letter of the alphabet. And the second one is The Bagel Who Want It to Be Everything, which is the sweetest, um, most creative book that my kids have been absolutely loving. And if you're not familiar with Alan's work, he has a litany of books that focus on various Jewish traditions aimed for children. So he's great. All right, Gabby, what's good for the Jews this week?

SPEAKER_02 41:06

I've got a I've got some music content for you guys. I listen to a lot of music, so probably I'll be talking about music a lot. Uh I don't know if either of you or I don't know if any of you have heard of Noga Erez. She is an Israeli singer and like rapper kind of hip-hop artist. She's awesome. I saw her in concert in DC a few months ago and it was totally sold out. Like not a huge venue, but sold out, and she was amazing. Like I walked out of there and I was like, she has star power. And not just among the Jews, but like there were people plenty of people there who weren't Jews, which is great to see. And the reason she is good for the Jews this week is because she is in the middle of a huge tour of playing big music festivals. She was at Coachella last month in California. I just saw this week that she'll be playing Austin City Limits in the fall, and in between, all summer long, she's hitting big festivals across Europe. So I just love to see an Israeli artist who she's just doing her thing. She's not out here talking about Israel all the time, but her name's Noga Ares. I mean, we know that's who she is. She's she's got an accent. Um, and I'm just glad to see that people are catching on to her and it's not some huge thing. There are, I know some people out there who have tried to get her canceled, who have tried to, from the the BDS movement, have tried to come after her, and it hasn't worked. She keeps getting these invitations because she's awesome. So I encourage everyone, listen to Noga Erez. If you happen to be really cool and going to music festivals in Europe this summer, like go check her out. Um, if anybody wants to fly me to one of those places, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Also, there's a new movie about her, a documentary. It's called Noga, and I'm going to the premiere at Tribeck in a few weeks. So, like, this is the year of Noga. I love it. Oh, I will. Uh, Diana, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01 42:54

Okay. I saw a movie this week called Scheitel, which is about a shitel, which is also pronounced Shaytel, I've learned. Um, and that is an Orthodox woman's um head covering. And it was a documentary. And what's nice about the documentary is that it was Whig positive. I feel like so many of the stories we tell about the Orthodox community are basically like escape narratives, like, I got out of this community and it was so oppressive, and like now I'm free, you know? And this was nothing like that. It was much more about women who are proud to cover their hair, who feel like it increases their intimacy with their husband, who feel like doing it is in their framing, like a service to Hashem. And I found it, you're you were talking about this earlier, Steph, sort of like the purposelessness of modernity and people seeking. And here are these women that are like, um, I I I know what I'm doing.

unknown 43:59

And I

SPEAKER_01 44:00

I feel great about it, you know? And it wasn't like simplistic. There were also nuance and people putting on the wig for the first time, and that that was hard, you know. So it wasn't like this um oversimplification either, but it was really about um t women telling their own story on their own terms and a celebration of uh religious Jewish women. And it was also hilarious because after the movie on the way out, like everyone was talking about their hair. My hair does this, my hair does that, you know, and it just brought up this whole huge conversation amongst Jewish women. So Shaytel, I recommend it.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Amazing. Um, and so I'm gonna go like old Hollywood glam with My Good for the Jews, which is that um Marilyn Monroe's Rolodex is being auctioned off. Someone tweeted like a scan of a page of it, and at the bottom it says it's a list of all these places, uh, like a newspaper place, a clock repair place, um, a doctor. Then you see Barney Greengrass. Um, and you can see like the extension, I guess the phone number, it's like five digits. And then right underneath that, it says William Greenberg special cakes. And that's like the famous uh kosher bakery that makes really, really good black and white cookies. But like I just love knowing that in Marilyn Monroe's Roll of Decks, like she knew. Right. What do you think she ordered at Barney Greengrass? Like, I have to know. Oh, I don't know, but there's that to ask for Mo. Totally. Um, which is amazing. Mo Greengrass.

SPEAKER_02 45:27

Yeah, the definitive account of her deli order, her kosher baked good order.

SPEAKER_03 45:33

And I feel like at Barney Greengrass somewhere there's like a paper receipt from Marilyn Monroe. Um, and it's funny because Mo was sort of the the patriarch of of the Greengrass Empire, but they're the like the the newest generation, but there's a Mo again, there's a Mo Greengrass. And so I feel like if you're Mo Greengrass and you haven't already Instagrammed your name, technically your name in Marilyn Monroe's Rolodex, but you'd first have to learn the word Rolodex. Right. Um, they know a party greengrass, though. They they know Rolodex. They know from that. Um, which I don't know. Marilyn Monroe, black and white cookies, locks, very good for the Jews. Amen. That's it for our show. Golda Girls is a production of Golda Media. The show is hosted by me, Stephanie Butnik, with Gabby Deutsch, Diana Fersco, and Esther Shahebar. Ariel Shapiro is our executive producer, and we're edited by the team at Puldu. Get more Golda and subscribe to our newsletter at Goldaguide.com. Follow us on Instagram at Goldaguide. Tell everyone you know about your favorite new podcast, Golda Girls. Share it, subscribe to it, leave us a review. Thank you so much, and stay Golda.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

That's a Golda podcast.