GOLDA Girls
A podcast for Jewish women with a lot to say.
GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick sits down with journalist Gabby Deutch, novelist Esther Chehebar, and Rabbi Diana Fersko each week to talk culture, community, identity, and the everyday moments shaping modern Jewish life.
GOLDA Girls
Catskills, Torah, and Defying Gravity with Talia Suskauer
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GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick, journalist Gabby Deutch, and Rabbi Diana Fersko are joined by Talia Suskauer, star of the new Off-Broadway musical A Walk on the Moon, to talk Jewish theater, playing Elphaba on Broadway, and learning to play mahjong for her role in the 1960s Catskills-set musical.
With the High Holidays around the corner, the Girls set some Jewish New Year’s resolutions, which this year include getting into regular Torah study—with help from our friends at the Simchat Torah Challenge.
Send us your Ask GOLDA questions at hi@goldaguide.com (voicenotes are best; be sure to tell us who you are and where you’re calling from.) Leave us a review and we’ll send you a GOLDA sticker! Email a screenshot of your review to hi@goldaguide.com.
Subscribe to GOLDA at goldaguide.com and follow us on Instagram at @goldaguide.
This week’s Good for the Jews picks:
Stephanie: Blueprint Literary, Jessica Kasner Jacobs’ new agency dedicated to amplifying voices from Israel.
Diana: The Mi Shebeirach prayer (NOT the Debbie Friedman version)
Gabby: Klezmer music!
Where you can find the GOLDA Girls:
Follow Gabby’s writing at jewishinsider.com/authors/gabby-deutch and subscribe to her Substack at gsdeutch.substack.com.
Sign up for Diana’s print newsletter, Modern Jewess, at modern-jewess.com, and buy her book, We Need to Talk About Antisemitism, at rabbidianafersko.com/books.
Get Esther’s novel Sisters of Fortune at bookshop.org/a/110357/9780593734544, and her children’s book I Share My Name, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781532432187.
Buy Stephanie’s book, The Newish Jewish Encyclopedia, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781579658939.
Sponsors:
GOLDA Girls is presented by Nu Reads, a new Jewish book subscription series curated by the Jewish Book Council that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. You can check out Stephanie’s interview with Nu Reads featured author Portia Elan about her new novel, Homebound, in the GOLDA Girls feed. Use code NuGolda at checkout for 15% off your subscription. Visit NuReads.org to get started today.
This week’s episode of GOLDA Girls is also brought to you by the Simchat Torah Challenge. The Simchat Torah Challenge is your weekly reminder that ancient Jewish texts are surprisingly good at modern life. If you haven't yet joined the world’s oldest book club and the community of tens of thousands, sign up here.
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Stay GOLDA.
Nu Reads
SPEAKER_00You know I love New Reads, the Jewish book subscription series that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. Well, there's a new box out with their latest pick, and it's Portia Elon's debut novel, Homebound. I got the chance to talk to Portia this week about the book, which I loved. It manages to be both futuristic and deeply human and a great read. You can find that special episode featuring our conversation in the GoldenGirls feed. With New Reads, you're not just getting books, you get access to exclusive experiences with authors and a community built on a shared passion for Jewish storytelling. New Reads is offering GoldenGirls listeners 15% off their subscription. Just use the code NUGOLDA, N-U-G-O-L-D-A at checkout. Visit Newreads.org. That's n-u-re-a-d s dot org to get started today. Welcome to Golda Girls, the podcast for Jewish women with a lot to say. I'm Stephanie Butnick, the founder of the Jewish lifestyle newsletter Golda, and I'm back this week with two of my
Intro + High Synagogue Dues
SPEAKER_00three co-hosts. We're here with Rabbi Diana Fersko. Good morning. And Jewish insider journalist Gabby Deutsch.
SPEAKER_01Hello. I miss Esther, but love you both.
SPEAKER_00I know. I miss Esther too. We'll be joined later in the show by Talia Suskauer from the Hit Off Broadway musical A Walk on the Moon. And we also have a special segment in partnership with the Simco Torah Challenge. That's all coming up on today's episode. But first, Golden Girls, what's going on?
SPEAKER_01I want to talk to you guys about a realization that I have had, which is I turned 30 last year. And I know that turning 13 is supposedly when you are a Jewish adult. But for the sake of paying full cost of membership at synagogues and things like that, it is age 30. That is when you go over the cliff of being a young professional to being a full adult. And the reason that I'm thinking about all of this is the high holidays, believe it or not, are coming up in less than two months. I know it's scary. They are like actually around the corner, even though it feels like the middle of summer. It's around the corner. It's wonderful. I'm ready. It is wonderful. So I am thinking about going to show for the high holidays. I'll be in Florida visiting my parents for Russia Shana. So they have taken care of that ticket for me and probably spent a lot of money on it. So thank you to my parents. And then I'll be back in DC for Yom Kippur. And so I looked online to try to buy tickets to my synagogue here that I love, which I am not yet a member of. And I'm not going to name it because I don't want to name and shame on prices, and all of the prices are probably the same everywhere, to be honest, but I'll just keep the name out of it for the moment. So I thought maybe this is the year that I join the synagogue. I live in DC, I love it, I want to support. So I go online to look up the cost. I pulled it up here. If you are under 30 to join the synagogue, and this includes Russia Hashanah and Yom Keep Poor tickets. Oh, because you can't get tickets without being a member. Is that what it is? You can, but I wanted to support. Although ultimately I did end up choosing not to join at the moment. I need a little bit more time to write it on us. My head around the price. Okay, so if you're under 30 years old to join the synagogue is $181. Now I question why they didn't just leave it at around $180, but that's neither here nor there. To join as a two-adult household. So if I were to join with my boyfriend in between the ages of 30 and 35, it goes up to almost $2,900. So that's a that's a big increase. It wasn't something that I was expecting, it wasn't on my budget. I think by next year, when I've had time to think it all through and plan for it, I'll be good and I'll be so excited to sign up. But this was a moment where I looked and I was like, oh my God, it is expensive to be Jewish. And I know we've talked about that. I don't have kids yet, so I'm not thinking about preschool or camp or any of that. But I have been coasting on the young professional costs of being Jewish. And now I'm like, okay, this is my bot Mitsu moment, if you will. It's a new milestone and it's exciting and I want to support, but I was, there was some sticker shock for me.
SPEAKER_00Can I tell you my dirty secret, which is that as a longtime Jewish podcaster, I do not belong to a synagogue. And I get asked this question a lot. You know, I live on the upper west side, where do you go? And my answer is that I dabble and that I do different programs at different places. And part of it is because I'm at my that next inflection point, which is having young kids and deciding what the right place for them to go to Hebrew school is, right? I do think that at these life cycle moments is when you're like, okay, what am I committing to? I'm in the same boat as you, Gabby, even though I'm slightly, I'm a bit older. I'll admit that. I'm an elder millennial. You can go a la carte for a long time. And I think that's a great thing. But then I also think it means that you have people who haven't fully joined. We sort of have this self-fulfilling cycle of us being like, it's so expensive to join, but I'm gonna do all these things for free. But Rabbi Diana, I want you to weigh in with your official clergy rabbinical take. My responses are in varying directions.
SPEAKER_03My immediate response that I'm not that proud of, it's like an internal response is to be defensive and to be like, How much is your gym membership a year? Give me a break, or to say, maybe they shouldn't be charging only 180 for younger people. You're basically devaluing something that has the potential to have tremendous value in your life. Like spiritual abs. I mean, community, friendship, uplift, wisdom, intellect, education, multi-generational experiences. A synagogue can do all those things in a way that no other institution really can. But I also feel the opposite way at the exact same time, which is everyone knows these membership rates are ridiculous. Synagogues no, congregants no. It's not as if synagogues are making money off of these dues. In fact, it costs a great deal more to run a synagogue than the cost of dues. It takes generous, philanthropic congregants to make it work. But nonetheless, we know it's a lot. And I think the truth is there's no synagogue that's gonna turn you away because of finances. So, Gabby, if you were like, listen, I'm in on this. But 2900, that's really a shot for me. I think the thing to do is just to call them and tell them and be honest. And my experience with most synagogues is they're like, okay, what can you do? I don't think the finances are really like the end of the discussion. But what I do want to say is that the finances pretend to a philosophical problem. We're trapped in this model of consumerism between synagogues or other Jewish institutions and the congregants who use them. And we wish that relationship would be different, but because of the way the funding is and because of the way the culture is right now, it's not. So even that sort of like consumerist ideology is troubling to me. And I don't, I don't know the fix.
SPEAKER_01I want to add, you know, I grew up in a family where we were proud members of, well, mostly one, but at times also two conservative synagogues. Oh, I love that. The Deutsches. Of course, of course. I'm a joiner. That's just my personality. Right now, I'm not a member of the synagogue, but I like having a place where I can show up and I know people. And I know that that is the path that I'm on. I do understand the cost. I paid full price for my Yom Kippur tickets. So I will be showing up fully bought in, at least on that experience. And then in the months to come, I'm sure there will be times I'll go to a Shabbat service and I'm kind of freeloading because I'm not a member yet. But I do think that there is something to once you're paying, you're you're bought in. You can quibble on the amount. Of course, people always like to spend less money. That's just how we function. But I do think once you're committing and you're buying in, you want the synagogue to do well. You want to support in other ways. That leads to people like getting on boards and getting involved and things like that, which I do totally understand. I think I'm just having a moment of, okay, I'm wrapping my head around this. And this is the path that I'm on. And thank God. And like I love being Jewish. I love that there's this amazing synagogue I want to join. I just need to mentally ramp up to it.
SPEAKER_03I also want to say something I see out in the world, which kind of like presses my buttons a little bit, is this idea of, but this synagogue isn't perfect for me. And then that's the reason people don't join. And the answer is of course the synagogue is not perfect for you. We know it doesn't check every single box, but there's this larger idea of community, which is when you're in it, you work to make it better. Or you say, Listen, I like 90% of this, but 10%, like it's kind of like, ah, you know. And I think sometimes it just presses my buttons when even though synagogues are flawed, don't get me wrong, there's like lots and lots of ways to improve. But when people look at it and say, I want this from over here and that from over there, it's a little bit like, but that's not the idea with community. The idea is here's this sort of messy living, breathing thing. I'm gonna join it and it make it a little bit better along my way.
SPEAKER_01Right. You're not joining a synagogue to show up at Shabbat every now and then and just watch. You're showing up to be part of the community and meet the people and actually like be part of the institution. It's not like going to a show. I mean, it kind of is. And if you're at a good synagogue, you have that, but it's not like buying your favorite outfit, you know?
SPEAKER_03Like this looks great on me. I look amazing. It's more like participating in something holy that is messy and flawed and surprising and wonderful all at once.
SPEAKER_00I also feel like there's the idea of an investment. You are making an investment in this place, and therefore you are a member. And so, like, I think that goes both ways, right? It values the product, which is this affiliation. But then I think maybe it also says stick around and change it, or stick around and get involved, or try to have an impact, be sort of a voice that helps to make it a place maybe that feels more like it meets your needs because you never know, like that might be someone else's need as well.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Thank you for saying it the way I was trying to say it. Yes. Wow, you're really making me realize I need to join. Oh, you need to join. You'll get there. You'll get there.
SPEAKER_00I just want to be courted, you know? I actually think this is exactly the right time to be talking about this. And Gabby,
Simchat Torah Challenge
SPEAKER_00I'm glad that you just had that moment because it's like we are now, almost officially, I would say, getting ready for high holidays. Call me crazy, but July is coming to an end. We've got August. We all know that month flies by so quickly. We always think summer is so long. It is not. And then the high holidays come at us pretty quickly. Rush Hashanah starts at sundown on September 11th. Labor Day is right before that. We consider this your like alarm bell that this is actually time to start thinking about the high holidays. We're doing something special today in partnership with our friends at the Simchla Torah Challenge. So instead of talking about the news of the day, the stories that have us glued to our phones, on our group chat, we're gonna slow down a little bit and we're gonna go way back. So the Simco Torah Challenge is this great initiative that aims to get Jews reading Torah. And if that sounds intimidating, the whole point of the Simchotora Challenge is that it actually is not at all. You sign up for their newsletter and you get bite-sized wisdom each week in the form of that week's Torah portion. And there's events and there's a ton of other programming that really, really brings you into the weekly cycle of Torah learning. And in their first year, they wanted to reach like 10,000 people. They reached almost 40,000 people. And I think what they figured out is that there is this yearning for something a little bit more grounded, something a little bit deeper, something to connect them back to their Jewish roots. And that thing is Torah, and that's what we're gonna talk about today.
SPEAKER_03I love, by the way, that both of those numbers, the 10 they tried to get and the 40 they ended up getting, are like magic Jewish numbers. Like, do you see how it's all meant to be? 10 and a minion, 40 years in the desert. There are no accidents here.
SPEAKER_01That Diana, I'm thinking like, okay, multiples of 18. I don't think 10 and 40 are like you're like a regular jerk for next level.
SPEAKER_03Yes, the only other like magic number is seven, seven days of the week, seventh day, God rest. These are important things that if one studied Torah would be top of mind.
SPEAKER_00The Simco Torah Challenge is run by a bunch of wonderful people, and you are in their orbit. You've done a bunch of stuff for them. So tell us a little bit about your experience there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I just feel very fortunate to be involved with an organization that has such a clear and eternal mission. The mission is so clear. Study Torah and we're gonna help you. So, yes, I've written for them, I've done some teaching for them. Hopefully, I'm gonna do a little bit more in the future. But basically, you sign up, they send you an email every week that's like, hey, here's how I'm gonna help you understand what's in this thing. It's as easy as that. And I actually was at the mikvah the other day sitting on a bait dean, which is like a little panel for somebody's conversion. And this woman shared that as a lead up to her conversion, she had actually done the Slimcha Torah challenge every single week and participated.
SPEAKER_01And it was just, it was incredible. It was moving. Longtime listeners of Golden Girls back two and a half months ago when we started doing this, will know that I have been looking for some Torah wisdom in my life. And I was very blessed for Rabbi Diana First Go to set up a Zoom Torah study with me ahead of Shabu back in May. I'm excited that we're we're bringing more of that into our lives. And as much as I loved learning with Diana, probably I should be also doing some on my own as well for the Fridays when she is busy.
SPEAKER_00I'm never busy on a Friday. What are you talking about? I want to get back to that story you just told, Diana, because I feel like there must be nothing more powerful than sitting on the panel of rabbis at the mikvah that basically says, you've converted, like, welcome, you're gonna do the dips, welcome home. That must be just like a very powerful professional experience for you.
SPEAKER_03Honestly, I love, love going. We do the bait dean, this sort of like court, this panel of three Jewish leaders where we have a conversation to assess if the student is ready to become Jewish. We do it at the actual mikvah. And they're always first thing in the morning, you know, 8:30 or whatever. And I just say, this is the best way to start my day. I can't think of anything more hopeful and more beautiful and more inspiring than somebody coming forward and saying, I want to join your people. And especially because people tend to take it very seriously. They put in a ton of work to become Jewish. They also have some oftentimes emotional work to deal with, becoming Jewish, with talking to their families about it. It's a massive spiritual, religious, cultural undertaking to commit yourself to being a part of our people forever, especially now. During these times, I'm kind of like, wait, are you sure? Like, you really? And their answer is consistently, yes, I've thought about this from every single lens. So, yes, the mikvah is one of my happiest places. It's literally a well of inspiration. A literal well.
SPEAKER_00It's actually not a well, though, right? I should say living water, flowing water. It's interesting because we talk. This is my serious voice, by the way, when we talk about Torah. That's my Torah voice. On this show, we talk about culture. I bet you do. Uh, you learn that, you learn that in seminary. We talk a lot about pop culture. And I feel like it's so funny because it's like this has been the summer of my bagel Jewish, and all of us just being like, yay, Jewish is in the discourse, happy, positive representations of Jewishness, even if it's just a bagel, right? We're just in the conversation. And I think for a lot of us, for me especially, I do find that so much of my Jewish life is rooted to cultural expressions of it. My daughter turned five this weekend. I took her to Ross and Daughters. Um, Nikki Russ Vetterman set me up. She decked out a whole table for us. Oh, we did a candle and a little babga bun. She was so happy. And yes, that is a big piece of Jewish identity today. Hearing you talk about what it means to convert, realizing the high holidays are upon us, it's a reminder that the well is deep. And actually, we need that. There's a beautiful mix of all of this that I think this season is what makes us aware of. We recognize it in this, you know, in the lead up to this season.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I also love Jewish culture and I love your celebration of Jewish culture. Like it is fantastic. But I want to make an important point, which is culture comes from a place, right? Jewish culture doesn't just appear. Jews were not like, oh, we're funny or oh, we love babka. All of those things actually have a source. The source is the Torah. It doesn't say like on the sixth day we created Babka, right? Every single part of God's creation of Jewish culture, of the Jewish way of being is in the Torah. Like it's the Torah that tells us how to live and how to think and how to mourn and how to grieve and how to be a parent or how not to be a parent, you know, how to fail, how to succeed. It is a book that when you engage in it and study with it, Jewish culture comes out of. And of course, all the other writings we've done since then come out of Torah also. So it's like, I don't like it when people take for granted that Jewish culture just exists. It doesn't. You know, it's evolved through close relationship with the original gift that God gave us, which was this book.
SPEAKER_01I was talking yesterday to someone I know from DC who previously worked in the government and did a lot of work in that position fighting anti-Semitism, where he dealt with scary issues and talked to other very important official people about it. And we were catching up. I hadn't talked to him for a while, and he was telling me that his kid is about to go away to sleep away camp, a Jewish sleepway camp for the first time. And he was so excited because yes, you can do your important work fighting anti-Semitism, but the point of it all is so that your kids and the people in our community can go and actually like do the Jewish things that they care about and that are meaningful. And he told me that he had been at one of his kids' school, preschool graduations, and when they started singing all the Jewish songs, he started crying. And I thought that was just something that is so important and that we should all be thinking about. We can all spend a lot of our time thinking about all of the big bad people and forces out there who don't love the Jews. But if you're angry about that and then you don't actually do the Jewish stuff, or perhaps in this case, read the Torah, get the Simcla Torah challenge emails, whatever it is, what's it all for? Why are we so angry if we're not actually gonna do the Jewish stuff ourselves?
SPEAKER_03Yes, Deborah Lipstadt has a really good teaching on that, where she wrote something like, Yes, of course, we all know what we're fighting against, but you also have to know what you're fighting for. And I hear that message in your story, Gabby, very much so. And I also just want to acknowledge before we get off of this point is Torah study is very intimidating. And it's not for everyone. And the point of Simka Torah challenge is to make it a little easier. But I feel like I can give my personal Diana guarantee that for those who give themselves or for those who give a little of themselves to Torah, they'll get a lot back.
SPEAKER_00We live in the era of newsletters, right? Like Golda is a newsletter. And I also get my Simka Torah challenge, and it's like, oh yeah, just a little bit about the Torah portion. And it fits into your life in a way that actually is a reminder of the project more broadly, right? This fits into your life. There is always something relevant from the Parsha in your life that week. The Torah is this living thing. It's quite an old thing. It's ancient, you might say it's biblical. There are all these modern teachings in it, and so much of our lives, I feel like, is this search for like wellness and unplugging. And I just love the fact that we figured a lot of that out a while ago. We already wrote that all that stuff exists, and we sort of just need to turn to it. And I think this season of life, as we begin the approach to the high holidays, it's a great time to just like slow down and remember all that our tradition has to offer us.
SPEAKER_03I mean, if only God had given us a book and written it all down.
SPEAKER_00So I also feel like maybe we could do like pre-Jewish New Year resolutions. Because I think like, Gabby, you're on this path. Diana, you're like I'm off the beam. You're off the beam. You're not in a congregational role. You, I'm looking at you. Your background is your new office at the Marlene Meyerson, JCC of Manhattan. That's amazing. And I am in my own place of like, I am institutionally unmoored in a way, right? I haven't really affiliated in that sense. And like while I consider myself deeply engaged in so many Jewish projects and ideas. Yeah. You're you're pretty Jewish, Seth. Yes, I do feel like that. But I've always had this struggle as someone who works in the professional Jewish world, which is like, what happens when the high holidays roll around? I spent 13 years at Tablet. It was always like you were preparing for the high holidays and the content and the coverage. And then some holidays would come up, and you're like, well, oh, this is my day off. I think I've always been on this journey of trying to figure out what my personal spiritual life and now my family's spiritual life looks like vis-a-vis like this professional obligation I have to help people figure out how they understand the high holidays and all these moments in their Jewish lives. So could we do some high holiday resolutions on this show?
SPEAKER_01Round robin holiday resolutions.
SPEAKER_03Okay. I since I'm making this big life change, I actually have one, which I'm gonna make Russia Shana dinner, Era of Russia Shana. Ooh. And I've never done it. And not only that, I've actually missed my own family's Air of Russia Hashanah dinner every single year forever, because you know, you know where I have been.
SPEAKER_00You've been at the office trying to get that sermon ready.
SPEAKER_03I've been on that Bima, which is wonderful. It's really like the Super Bowl for you. It is, it's my Super Bowl. But this year is different, and I'm very ecstatic to be a Jew in the pew, as you say. But Air of Russia Hashanah, like I'm going all in, I've been reading some Adina Sussman stuff. Our listeners have helped me. My mom is making that recipe that one of our listeners suggested to us. Yeah, yeah, she's making it. I'm trying to get my Jewish home muscles activated. So in very like tangible resolution this year is to make Rosh Hashanah dinner.
SPEAKER_01I love that. I'll follow. I'm not gonna make a high holiday resolution because. Because I've got my high holiday plans down. They're all set. But I would like to.
SPEAKER_00I thought you were gonna say that like New Year's resolutions are not Jewish. I thought that was gonna be your take.
SPEAKER_01No, I love resolutions. Any opportunity for reflecting and tying something up with a little boat, I'm all in on that. My Jewish resolution, if you will, for what are we coming on? 5787. Is that right, Diana? Fact check from the rabbi. Right. I love celebrating Shabbat and I do it a lot. I don't do it most weeks. I think saying I'm gonna have Shabbat dinner every week is a bit of a stretch, but I'd like to light Shabbat candles every week. That's my place to start.
SPEAKER_00That's beautiful. My resolution is that I've spent the three past years going to the JCC or Diana's new office every day because my daughter was in nursery school. It's named after the Zabars, Sol and Carol Zabar nursery school, which is honestly incredible. The brand is strong, but I'm not there this year because my daughter has graduated pre-K and my younger daughter Sadie is not yet there. And so we are in this sort of flux moment. And so I think for me, my resolution is going to be to find our spiritual home for like the year. I signed up for at one of the local synagogues. I wrote a show lum is one of the things I signed up is one of those Friday classes with for me and Sadie, who's one, who'll be one next week. I remember doing them with Edith or Friday at a perfect thing to do. And it's just, I always feel like it's a little different there. Yes, there's music. Yes, there's shakers. It's different. I love the idea of bringing Sadie into a Jewish space once a week and just being like getting to sort of soak it in. So my resolution to yes, we should figure out where we're joining, but also just figure out where we are rooting ourselves this year. That's beautiful. So I want our listeners to tell us their Jewish New Year's resolution. The Simkotorah Challenge is your weekly reminder that ancient Jewish texts are surprisingly good at modern life. So if you haven't yet joined the community of tens of thousands of people, you can sign up at SimchotoraChallenge.org slash Golda. That's Simchotora Challenge.org slash Golda. And welcome to the club.
Jewish Theater Boom with Talia Suskauer
SPEAKER_00We are joined by an incredibly talented guest today. It's Talia Suskauer, who has played Elphaba in Wicked on Broadway and is currently starring in the new musical A Walk on the Moon, inspired by the 1999 Diane Lane film of the same name. You know you know it, you know you've seen it, and now you can see it with Talia. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm gonna jump in. Talia and I have some Jewish geography to do, which is Oh, let's get that out of the way.
SPEAKER_00Wait, how do you guys know each other?
SPEAKER_01So we're both from South Florida, and if I recall correctly, we did a little bit of Jewish Youth Group in USY together.
SPEAKER_02We did. We went on like I think a few trips together. And I think our parents know each other.
SPEAKER_01I'm certain our parents know each other.
SPEAKER_02A hundred percent. And I think your sister as well. Like we all went on these trips, right? To the middle of Florida to like cabins, right?
SPEAKER_01That's right. Jewish youth group conventions. You know, there was a lot of singing at those places. You wouldn't remember me because I didn't sound good, but I do I do love to like sing along to to Wicked. And so um you could say I'm also I've also played Alphaba, but it's not really the same.
SPEAKER_02Hey, you know what? It's the same in our hearts.
SPEAKER_03Give us a little more color on your Jewish upbringing. So you were like a synagogue Jew, youth group Jew. All of the things.
SPEAKER_02I grew up, I went to a conservative synagogue called Temple Beth David in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. And my grandmother actually was the director of education there. So I went to preschool there. They had one of the most incredible preschools in our community. So like they accepted everyone went there. Like the Jews, Christians, anyone that wanted to give their kid the most incredible start to life went to this preschool and was taught by my grandma. It was amazing and speaks to the values that we hold in terms of like education and how important that is. But I went there and she also like ran the religious school. So I was the principal's granddaughter, which was very fun for me. And bought mitzvah there and went to one year of Jewish summer camp at Blue Star in in North Carolina, but then went to performing arts summer camp the rest of the time.
SPEAKER_03Was it French Woods? It was French Woods. Come on. Because basically that is a Jewish summer camp. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02It was an extension of that. It was just for, you know, those of us who wanted to sing and be crazy in that way. So French Woods, it's a little crazy, no? Yes, very, very. It's still going strong today, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00My favorite fun fact that people who went there would say was, you know, Adam Levine from Maroon 5 went to French Woods. It's the best sentence for like so many reasons.
SPEAKER_02It is, you know, so many people have gone there, and especially like in my industry and people that kind of span different generations as well, which is really cool. And um, it's the same, you know, people that went in the 80s, people that go now, it's like the same experience.
SPEAKER_00Do you feel like there is nothing that makes you cooler than playing alphabet? Like, like that's it's the kind of show that's seared, especially for young people. Like, it's it's it's a phenomena. Like, of all the roles to be playing, like that your alphabet must make you so cool. Like, if you could go back to see those preschool kids now, they'd be like, stop it.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's definitely a cool club to be a part of, but I think the coolest thing for me is that I mean, it was like my biggest dream growing up, that's that role specifically. And so I think that getting to achieve a dream like that and getting to take care of my inner child like that is the coolest thing about it for me. But yeah, people love it. It's it's definitely my fun fact.
SPEAKER_00Your true truths and a lie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, showing up at a party, doing two truths and a lie, and right.
SPEAKER_02So there's a lot of a lot of fun facts that can come out of that. Not a lot of people get painted green for a living.
SPEAKER_00So before we get to Walk on the Moon, I want to go back a little bit to just a few years to Parade. You led the national tour of the Tony Winning Revival, and it was actually alongside Max Ternan, who appears with you in A Walk on the Moon. So I feel like there was a lot of discussion around that show in 2023 when it was on Broadway and, you know, about Ben Platt and Michaela Diamond and just like how important this show was for that particular moment. And I would love to hear from you a little bit about your experience of taking that show on the road because I imagine you're taking this to so many other cities outside New York, and you're probably interacting like with the audience a bit more. And I feel like you probably saw stuff in that moment in those years that is really, really valuable for us all to know about.
SPEAKER_02So I played Lucille Frank in the National Tour of Parade, and Parade is a musical based on the story of Leo Frank in the early 20th century in Georgia. A Jewish man was wrongfully convicted of the rape and murder of a little girl that was a child employee at the pencil factory that he managed. He was convicted, he was sentenced to death by hanging. And his wife, um, while he was in prison, she actually fought to prove his innocence and collected evidence and went to the governor and actually got his sentence commuted to life in prison. And this was a woman back in this time to do what she did was massive. And so when he was serving his life sentence, a lynch mob came in and took him in the middle of the night and and hung him. So this was a true story that happened in Atlanta, and we sang about it, which you wouldn't think we wouldn't think it would make a good musical, but oh my god, how effective it is. When you do a show in New York, that's only accessible to people that A can afford it, and B, that can travel to New York. So when you're taking it around the country, it's already more accessible location-wise to the people that can't leave their cities, and also the ticket prices are just a little bit cheaper. Different people can come see the show, and also the theaters we're playing are not Broadway-sized houses. Some theaters are like 4,500 seats, so we can reach more people that way. And one thing that I found, I think we were all really nervous taking the show out at that time because the election had just happened, and either way, we were like, it's gonna be kind of crazy and a heated moment in our country. But also, one thing that I discovered was that every place that we went to, you're going to that place that has its own unique history, and you're telling the story about anti-Semitism and racism and this event that shook this particular community in Atlanta at the time. And every place that you tell the story is gonna be different. The audience is gonna feel different because they know the history of the place that they're living in. So, for example, we went to Kansas City and the audiences were really quiet but really thoughtful. And I was talking to a friend of mine who lived there, and I was like, it seems like no one likes it. She goes, Oh no, people were sitting there and riveted. And this was one of my earlier cities on the tour, and I was like, Oh, tell me, tell me more. And she was like, People are really affected by stories like this right now because a few years ago we had a big shooting at a JCC here in Kansas City, and it really rattled the community. A story like parade about another anti-Semitic event affected them in a certain way. And then, you know, we have a big part of our show is about racism and anti-blackness as well. And we went to Minneapolis, and that's obviously where George Floyd was murdered. And so, like, parts of that story rang differently there than they did in another in LA or somewhere else. So, what's really cool is that we were able to kind of inspire a lot of thought from these different places that we went to, and people started to really think about their own lives and communities after seeing the show.
SPEAKER_03Right. You almost have to tell them through song because they're so incredibly heavy and raw that you need a medium as a way to open the door to people to even engage with the material.
SPEAKER_02And I think that was the thing about touring it, right, is that it's not one of the most popular musicals amongst people that are not like big Broadway fans and New Yorkers, right? We had a harder job to, you know, we would come to these communities and oftentimes we would start out with you know not selling very well. And then people would come and realize, oh my god, this is unbelievable. And they'd come again and again. But it's a hard sell. I mean, especially right now, people to come see a show about what I had just described, it's a hard sell. But people that came really, really enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_00And now you get to tell a new story. Pearl Kantorowitz's story, originally told in, you know, the 1999 movie A Walk on the Moon, but it really is about the Lower East Side, Catskill, Bungalow Colonies. It is another really Jewish, really American story. So I'm curious what it's been like for you to step into that role, sort of like counterculture 1960.
SPEAKER_02It's been so amazing to get to tell the story. As a Jewish person, I'm oftentimes asked to come represent my culture in telling stories that are really dark and traumatic. And so to get to tell a story like the one we're telling in A Walk in the Moon, which, yeah, there's some drama that happens in it, but it's not because they're Jewish. It's because a woman, you know, has an extramarital affair when she's trying to find herself. That can happen to anyone. Our audiences are coming and saying, oh my god, my mother was Pearl, or like, I remember my summers in the bungalow colonies, or I remember this exact summer where I was in the summer of 1969 in the Catskills. And so we're telling the story about a vibrant Jewish community. Nothing bad is happening to these people other than just normal people stuff. Normally I'm asked to tell these really dark stories about lynchings in the at the turn of the century, or like the Holocaust, which again are honors to tell because I come from a family of Holocaust survivors, and to be tasked with that is also a privilege. But it again, it takes a toll. But this to be able to speak Yiddish on stage and play mahjong on stage and to get to represent members of my family like this and honor them is such a gift. And just to feel the Jewish joy in the house every single night, oh my god, it just brings a smile to my face every day.
SPEAKER_00So I do have to tell you that we gave away tickets, we raffled off tickets to a walk on the moon at the latest Golden Mahjong night last week. And people like it, people went nuts. And so I want to know like, did you are you did you learn mahjong? Are you just sort of like playing? Did you have a coach? What does that look like? It's the theme of the show.
SPEAKER_02It is. You know what? So, you know, I had done a few readings of the show, and there's a whole scene where we in between like conversation, we're playing mahjong. And I don't like to do anything half-assed, and I don't like to do anything um, just I don't like to not tell the truth when I'm when I'm acting. It's important to me to know what I'm saying. It's our job as actors to know what we're saying in terms of telling the story. And so I was like, I don't listen, I'm going to go figure out how to play this game. Anyone can come with me. So I signed up for a mahjong night at a local synagogue in the city, and I went, and I a few of the other girls came with me who play who are in the scene, uh the mahjong scenes, and we learned. And it was so cool, and we know exactly what we're saying, we know what we're doing. We actually ended up changing around the scene a little bit to make it more accurate. Wow. And I gotta tell you, like, it's not a very big theater. People can come and they're they're watching us, people that actively have mahjong games, they're coming to the shows. So I knew no one was gonna call us out like these women that were actually play these games, right? Or heard their moms playing these games.
SPEAKER_03I love that your instinct was like, if I don't get the mahjong scenes right, women will interrupt my professional Broadway show to correct me about Mahjong. And I think that's completely true.
SPEAKER_00That like, you know, the reviews online would be like, great show, but they're storming the Laura Pell's theater, being like, excuse me, you that move was wrong. Yes.
SPEAKER_02No that would happen. I want to make this experience as true to life for these people as possible, especially the women. And so to give them a glimpse of something that they know and love and feel similar to them in an honest, truthful way, it's honoring them in a in a different way, which is which is cool.
SPEAKER_00I love this, and I love how you are like bringing your full self and the role, the full self of Pearl to this role. And I just want to say, like, you and your sister are in this show together. And I have to ask, what is that like? That must be like sibling goals.
SPEAKER_02It's amazing. It's really cool. It's something like very rare that gets to happen. I mean, my sister, Becca and I are both in this industry, and first of all, that's rare. But secondly, it's rare that you get to work together professionally, and this is our first time doing that, and it's such a gift. I mean, we love each other to death. She's my best friend. We actually just moved in together, which is very funny. Precious pre-getting this contract. So when we got it, we had to have some serious conversations about are we gonna be okay? Like, how are we gonna make it through this? There's no work-life separation, but oh my god, it's been amazing. And now we both know how to play mahjong. Our grandma's very happy, which is cool.
SPEAKER_00I love that. So now you go back, you but go back to Temple Beth of Eden.
SPEAKER_01Come back to Palm Beach County, and I think Mahjong would make us both very popular, Talia.
SPEAKER_00I think so. Talia, it does feel like this summer is like a moment of Jewish theater. We had a lot of conversation about giant and now birthright, and of course, a walk on the moon. And I'm curious, like, if for you as an actor, does it change anything to have other shows with Jewish content and themes that are happening sort of at the same time?
SPEAKER_02Yes, and I feel like having so many shows that they're all so different from one another about Jewish topics and themes. I think it's so great because I think, especially in the last few years, it's been easy for people to try to pigeonhole us into being one way or the other, but like Jews are not a monolith, and I think that it's so cool that we have all of these different shows about Jewish life that are hitting the stages right now, and like mainstream stages, and making people talk and feel things and have discussions and have conversations, which is a tenet of Jewish life and experience, is having conversations and discussion and argument and debate. And I think that while ours is maybe, I guess, the least serious of all of those conversations, it's still our values still come into play in this show. I think it's like a beautiful, cool thing that's happening. And yeah, I'm I'm loving the discourse that's going on. I'm happy that people are mad, I'm happy that people are talking, and happy that people are affected. Um, because that means the theater is doing its job.
SPEAKER_03Yes, I always think about like what are the centers of urgent Jewish conversation? What are the outcomes of those centers? Like a synagogue is one, a JCC is one, you know, there are many different centers. Definitely the social media is one. And I always think with that, like, wow, this is a really bad center. Like the conversations that come out of here are really shallow and angry. But with theater, I feel very differently. It takes a lot of thought to write a play or make a musical or perform. And I don't always agree with what I see and what I hear, but at least it's a serious medium, you know? And I think I agree with you, Talia. There's no sense in underestimating the value of Jews showing up to talk about other things besides the horrible things that we've encountered. Like that is valuable.
SPEAKER_02It's so valuable. It is so valuable, and it's cool to get to go see these things and have my non-Jewish friends coming. And people love to have opinions about everything. So for people to come and be like, wait, hold on. I actually am learning firsthand and experiencing this topic that I've been a keyboard warrior about. And so it's like, oh, this is exists in real life? Exactly. So it's like, yeah, put your money where your mouth is, literally, buy a ticket and go learn about this thing or learn about someone's perspective before jumping to any conclusions.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. So, Talia, do you mind sticking around and helping us answer a listener question? I would love to. All right, we're back. It's
Ask GOLDA
SPEAKER_00Golda Girls, our we have our honorary Golden Girl here, uh Talia Susgower, joining me and Gabby Deutsch and Rabbi Diana Fersco. And this is our listener segment, which is um, it's Ask Golda, it's where a listener writes in um and really asks us anything. Talia, we've gotten into like all sorts of conversations and discussions based on these questions. So this letter actually comes in from one of my closest friends, Irene. She writes, Hi Golda girls, I'm a loyal listener and also Stephanie's BFF. We went to college together and lived together in New York afterwards. I can confirm this is so far all true. She writes, I now live in Durham, North Carolina, and have been finding myself in a unique situation vis-a-vis bageling, a topic you've mentioned on a few different episodes of this show. She writes, I'm Greek, my husband is Jewish, and as Stephanie knows, I love all things Jewish and consider myself a proud sponacobita bagel. When I'm meeting new parents at school or new people in town, and I get the sense that they might also be Jewish adjacent like me, I totally bagel them and try to suss it out and drop hints. But it's sort of an awkward thing to do, and I feel like it could read as anti-Semitic or something. What do you think? Is there a good way to do this? Help me, Golda Girls. Love ya, Irene. So Talia, you laughed when I read this. So I think you you are aware of the term bageling.
SPEAKER_02I actually wasn't. I thought it was something different, and then you explained it. Okay, wait, what did you think it was? Trying to find bagels in Durham. Fair, hunting for bagels. That is, yes. There is, there are good bagels though in Durham now. I can attest to that. Now I'm inferring that it's trying to figure out if someone is Jewish or not.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's come up, it's comes up a bunch, which basically you're like, you're meeting someone and you're like, you like bring up summer camp or you're like trying to suss out if they are in fact Jewish, leaving clues that like you might be also.
SPEAKER_02We've all been there, but I love that there's a term that goes with it, and I cannot wait to use it.
SPEAKER_00So basically, what Irene is asking, which I actually love, which is she's not actually Jewish, and she's trying to find out if other people are like also Jewish adjacent, like her. And so how do you not sound totally creepy? What do you do to sort of like signify that like I too am an ally? I'm a friend of. She's not Jewish? Married to one. But like Jewish, you know, like yes, and very, you know, proudly Jewish home. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think Diana's advice, Diana, you can you can tell me if this is wrong, but I think Diana will just say, like, say it straight up all the time, which I sometimes struggle with a little bit. Like I like to to start kind of subtle. But I think you mention your kids' preschool, if they go to like the Temple Beth David of Durham, for example, or you talk about your family trip. Oh, I was in Tel Aviv last summer, or I'm trying out this new hollow recipe. I think you just say it. And then if you're kind of getting close, you just ask. People want to know. They're not gonna think it's anti-Semitic, and you quickly follow it up with, my husband's Jewish, my kids are Jewish, whatever. Like, as long as you reveal yourself to be a friendly, allied person, they will not think you're anti-Semitic. So I I think you're good, Irene. Do do what you want to do, put it out there.
SPEAKER_03Gabby, I appreciate that you know me and you do. I'm obsessed with the subcategory of bageling, Jewish adjacent bageling. I think it's a growing category and one we should spend the rest of this podcast discussing. Actually, the whole season, the whole season. And I appreciate Irene's instincts because she's right. If someone comes up to you and is like, are you Jewish? And it's not a Chabad guy trying to give you candlesticks on the street, like you're a little bit like, I don't know, like, am I? Like, why who wants to know? Why are you asking? So she's gonna have to do a little bit more work in like the I statements area. So I agree with you, Gabby. She's gonna have to say, I am blah, blah, blah. I'm doing, you know, whatever for Shabbat. Pause. And I think she's gonna have to like come out a little bit more as Jewish adjacent, more so than a Jew would have to, because then they're gonna think she's Jewish, and then she's gonna have to like undo it. So I would preempt that whole thing and be like, yeah, I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing for Shabbat. You know, I have a Jewish family, that's enough. Or my husband's Jewish, something like that. She might have to be a little more assertive.
SPEAKER_02As an actor, I can advise that it's all about the delivery, right? Okay, yes. All about the delivery and like acting as all about listening and picking up on cues. And I think if you're already concerned about like it maybe coming off as anti Semitic, you're fine. The care is there. You don't even. If you're already thinking about that, it's very likely that the way that you're delivering your statements and comments to this person are not gonna be like, Are you Jewish? You know, like they're not gonna be menacing. You're likely gonna be fine. And again, I think like Gabby said, following it up quickly with, oh, my my husband's Jewish, my kids are Jewish.
SPEAKER_00That'll solve it right away. The people who are obsessed with how many Nobel Prizes Jews have won are both like your uncle Myron and anti-Semites. There's like this weird commingling of Jewish exceptionalism is of interest to two groups. But it also makes me realize we're so focused on like what it means to be Jewish today. And I think that eliminates what it means for all the people who are part of our Jewish lives today, the security guards at our local Jewish synagogue or institution, the friends and plus ones of Jewish life. There are so many people who are like in the family with us. You know, I'm thinking, Talia, your show like it's not all Jewish people coming to see this proud Jewish story with a walk on the moon or with parade. And it's like there's so many people who care about us and our stories and our lives. This could be like the summer of honoring that.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. People are going to the Borschbelt Museum up in the Catskills and learning about things. And, you know, I was walking in the Lower East Side yesterday and I walked past the tenement museum. And I gotta tell you, like the lines outside were massive. I love that on a beautiful day in New York, people are going to the tenement museum and learning about this.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? Like it's it's very, very cool. It's the summer of learning. I love that. It's the summer of happy Jewish stories. And it's let me say it, it's the summer of Talia Suskaur, who you can see on stage at the Laura Pell's Theater in a walk on the moon through August 22nd, a walk on the moonmusical.com. Talia, thank you for being here and thank you for expressing so much of your Jewish identity through the stories you tell. And like just, I don't know. I love it. Thank you for everything.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, and thank you for having me.
Good for the Jews
SPEAKER_00All right, it's time for our final segment of the show. It's good for the Jews. And it's pretty straightforward. We each bring something this week that we found or are thinking about that is, in fact, good for the Jews. Who wants to go first?
SPEAKER_01I'll go with something pretty classic, which is Klasmir music. I was at my dear friend Maya's childhood synagogue in Bethesda last weekend for an Ufruf, celebrating her upcoming wedding to her amazing fiancee Dan. And they got called up to do an Aaliyah. And for our listeners who don't know, an Ufruf is basically a celebration of a wedding happening at synagogue on a Shabbat service, like either the day before the wedding or sometime in the weeks leading up to it. And since we're not Orthodox, the bride and the groom both got called up to give an Aaliyah to do a blessing over the Torah reading. First of all, I felt like I was at a bot mitzvah. We all threw candy at them afterwards. And as they're up there, I can see on the side of the Bima, these klezmer musicians start gathering. We've got a clarinet, we've got an accordion, someone's on the piano, and I just started to get excited. So then we start throwing these candies, the band starts playing Simon Tove and Mazl Tov. My friend's mom gets up, all of the women are dancing around the synagogue together, the klezmer band goes into Odi Shamma, the classic Jewish wedding song. I just loved that music. It's so classic. I love the idea of these people, just members of the synagogue who are really into klezmer, that there's a woman who drives around maybe with an accordion in her trunk in case the opportunity. You never know. And it's old school, it's great, it was fun. And so klezmer music, Good for the Jews.
SPEAKER_03I love about this podcast is that I never know what's going to be evocative for me. And just you said the word klezmer, and I just like you felt it, you felt it. It touched me. And I would like to add two short comments to your wonderful Good for the Jews selection. One is that my grandmother played the accordion. And I just feel like, much like Maj, the accordion may have a moment of comeback. It's coming around. I see it. But two, you might be interested to know that my parents surprised me at my bot mitzvah with a klezmer band. Now, this just makes me even cooler. It's so obvious. Like, how did it happen? It was like a now. It happened after the service, after it was pointed out to me that another surprise was that the napkins, the cocktail napkins, were matching my dress. It was pointed out at the kiddish, there was a klezmer band there. And surprise!
SPEAKER_00Yay!
SPEAKER_01It explains a lot about the path you've taken. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yes, klezmer band at the Bomit. So that is perfect. So My Good for the Jews comes on the heels of a lot of conversations that are being had about the challenges that Jewish and Israeli authors have faced in the past few years trying to get their work published and out to broader audiences. And, you know, I know a lot of literary agents, editors behind the scenes who are involved in all of these conversations. One of my favorite people in this arena is Jessica Casmer Jacobs. She's been a literary agent in Israel for a bit. She was before that worked at the Wall Street Journal editing the book review. And she's great. She's lots of fun. And she actually just launched her own agency. It's called Blueprint Literary, and it's based in Tel Aviv. And the agency is going to represent Jewish, Israeli, Arab Israeli, and Palestinian authors, and they're going to really focus on international sales and media rights. And what I love about this, and it's literary, commercial, fiction, not narrative, nonfiction, it's all the things. And it's really someone doing something to solve a problem, right? And to get all sorts of voices from Israel to the wider world. I think Jessica is fabulous and brilliant. I love what she's creating. I've asked her to come on the show. Hopefully she'll come on soon to tell us a little bit more about the literary landscape at this moment and what she's trying to do there. But Kohakovo, Jessica, for what you're creating. Fascinating. I can't wait to learn more about that.
SPEAKER_03My Good for the Jews came on Shabbat this week. I attended services. The prayers are lovely always, but this week, my good for the Jews goes to a specific prayer. Ooh, the Mishaberach, which is the prayer for healing. And the reason I'm picking that is because I feel like in modernity, like when you say God or Hisham or whatever you call it, in a lot of cases, there's kind of like an eye roll or like a yeah, but or whatever. And I get all those things. But when it comes to the Misha Berach praying for a speedy and complete recovery for one of your loved ones, I just see hundreds of Jews praying with such intensity and sincerity. And there's nothing like ironic or metaphorical about it. It's just, please, God, do this thing. It feels very inspiring for me.
SPEAKER_01So I'm gonna say, good for the Jews, Misha Barak. Can we add to that the Debbie Friedman song of Misha Berah, which is, I think. Only if you sing it here.
SPEAKER_03Only if you sing it here. I'm sorry. We can't. No. That's like, oh my gosh, not that. I know it's beloved for so many people, but for all those also so many people, like there, it's like backlash.
SPEAKER_00Is it too like coy about or like too like cutesy about it's a folk song?
SPEAKER_01I'm a hard disagree. I love all things Debbie Friedman.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, there you go. Just sing it for us. Sing it for us.
SPEAKER_01I will not be doing that. Talia has unfortunately left the channel. Talia.
SPEAKER_00Didn't we just have a Broadway star on Alphaba anywhere? We let her go too soon. We'll put a pin in this debate. We'll open this to the listeners. Where do we stand on Debbie Friedman, Misha Berach? Hi at GoldenGuy.com. Send us all your love letters and hate mail for this specific thing. Golden Girls, this was a fabulous episode. I feel so good right now. Lucky to be together. Feeling amazing.
SPEAKER_01Gonna go listen to Defiant Gravity.
SPEAKER_00The Debbie Friedman version.
Credits
SPEAKER_00GoldenGirls is a production of Golden Media. The show is hosted by me, Stephanie Butnik with Gabby Deutsch, Diana Fersco, and on all other weeks, Esther Shahebar. Ariel Shapiro is our executive producer, and we're edited by the team at Poldu. Get more Golda and subscribe to our newsletter at Goldeguide.com. Are you following us on Instagram? We post fun clips from the show and more from the newsletter. It is at Goldeguide. In our show notes, you can find links to sign up for Diana's newsletter, Modern Jewess, and Gabby Subsack and Esther's novel Sister of Fortune. And also my book, The Newest Jewish Encyclopedia. Send us your Ask Golda questions to high at Goldeguide.com. And also, if you leave us a review, we will send you a sticker. So send us a screenshot of your review and your mailing address to high at goldeguide.com. As always, thanks for listening and stay Golda. That's a Golda podcast.
