Challah Baking and Reverse Bageling

GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick, journalist Gabby Deutch, and Rabbi Diana Fersko talk challah and “reverse-bageling,” and help a listener step up her Shabbat practice in our Ask GOLDA segment. 

Send us your Ask GOLDA questions at hi@goldaguide.com. You can also send us a voicenote; be sure to tell us who you are and where you’re calling from.

Good for the Jews picks:

Stephanie: Phish’s cover of “Avinu Malkeinu” at Madison Square Garden this week.

Diana: Tu B’Av, this week's Jewish holiday of love. 

Gabby: Baseball 

Upcoming events: 

Tuesday, August 18  — Southampton, NY: Join GOLDA for a special kids Mini Mahj event at ColorPop Workshop’s Southampton studio. Beginners welcome! Ticket includes one adult + one child (6 and up); sign up here. 

Thursday, September 17 — New York City: GOLDA founder Stephanie Butnick interviews Dr. Beth Ricanati at the launch event for her book The Braided Prescription: Seven Practices for Living Well from the Ancient Practice of Making Challah. 7 p.m. at The Strand Columbus; register here.

Find out about all of our upcoming events at goldaguide.com/p/events. 

Subscribe to GOLDA at goldaguide.com and follow us on Instagram at @goldaguide.

Where you can find the GOLDA Girls:

Follow Gabby’s writing at jewishinsider.com/authors/gabby-deutch and subscribe to her Substack at gsdeutch.substack.com. 

Sign up for Diana’s print newsletter, Modern Jewess, at modern-jewess.com, and buy her book, We Need to Talk About Antisemitism, at rabbidianafersko.com/books.  

Get Esther’s novel Sisters of Fortune at bookshop.org/a/110357/9780593734544, and her children’s book I Share My Name, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781532432187. 

Buy Stephanie’s book, The Newish Jewish Encyclopedia, at bookshop.org/a/110357/9781579658939.

GOLDA Girls is a production of GOLDA Media. The show is executive produced by Ariel Shapiro and edited by POLDHU. 

Sponsors:

GOLDA Girls is presented by Nu Reads, a new Jewish book subscription series curated by the Jewish Book Council that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. You can check out oue interview with Nu Reads featured author Portia Elan about her new novel, Homebound, in the GOLDA Girls feed. Use code NuGolda at checkout for 15% off your subscription. Visit NuReads.org to get started today.

This week’s episode of GOLDA Girls is also brought to you by the Simchat Torah Challenge. The Simchat Torah Challenge is your weekly reminder that ancient Jewish texts are surprisingly good at modern life. If you haven't yet joined the world’s oldest book club and the community of tens of thousands, sign up here.

Transcript

Nu Reads

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Before we get to today's show, I want to tell you about our presenting sponsor. It's New Reads, the Jewish book subscription series that brings remarkable literature straight to your door. You heard my interview with Portia Ilan in our feed last week. Her debut novel, Homebound, is the latest New Reads pick. But with New Reads, you're not only getting books, you also get access to exclusive experiences with authors and a community built on a shared passion for Jewish storytelling. New Reads is offering Golda Girls listeners a 15% off their subscription. Just use the code NUGOLDA. That's N-U-G-O-L-D-A at checkout. Visit Newreads.org, N-U-R-E-A-D-S.org to get started

Intro

SPEAKER_02 0:38

today. Welcome to Golda Girls, the podcast for Jewish women with a lot to say. I'm Stephanie Butnik, the founder of the Jewish lifestyle newsletter Golda, and I was gonna tell you that I'm back with all three co-hosts, but that is not the case. We had to put one of our hosts on vocal rest. She's gonna be back here next week. But we are here today with Rabbi Diana Fersco. Good morning, Golda Girls. And journalist Gabby Deutsch. Boker Tove, Golda Girls. We got a voice note this morning from our fourth co-host, Esther Shahart, but she basically was like, I have no voice. Is this okay for the podcast if I talk like this? And we were all like, please don't talk. You must rest your instrument. You must recover. Come back next week. We're all about the well-being of our host here on the show. We're gonna send a care package her way, but she will be with us next week. I'm so excited to be here with the two of you today. And we have a ton of catching up to do. But before we do, I do want to start on a little bit more of a serious note, which is that half of our co-hosts exist on the upper west side of Manhattan. Our producer, Ariel Shapiro, is here as well. And this week there was a very disturbing incident. There was a stabbing outside of two Jewish institutions on the Upper West Side. It really, really hits home and it calls into questions all sorts of things that American Jews have been thinking about that we have been talking about on the show. I just have to say, Diana, I was so proud to see you at the press conference the next day with a bunch of rabbis and community leaders in your new role at the JCC. And I just seeing you there just made me feel so grateful to you and just so proud of you on behalf of the Golden Girls, but also like all of us.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Thank you so much for saying that. Yes, you're right. It was an incredibly difficult week for Jews, particularly in our neighborhood. As you said, a man stabbed two adults in our neighborhood. One was walking out of synagogue for Tishaba Av at the time, wearing a kipah, and the assailant shouted Alu Akbar when he stabbed them. Obviously, the stabbing came the day after our mayor had offered a very difficult video singling out Israel and singling out Israeli government in particular. And I think what we're seeing on the Upper West side is we're now living in this climate of atmospheric anti-Semitism, which can really be ratcheted up by our leaders. So we were there at the press conference to urge our leaders to tamp down the rhetoric, to consider the effect of their words on the Jewish people, and to really hold them accountable for the tone that they're setting. And I can say we were joined by many elected officials, and that felt really good. Even people that weren't, you know, natural allies or sort of assumed allies were there. So it was rabbis, it was elected officials. There were two victims. One was an Asian man, and there were representatives of the Asian community, and there were also clergy people of different faiths there supporting us. So it was a horrible week. Obviously, we wish a Rafu Ashleima a complete and speedy healing to the victims and we're with them. And I think the press conference was just a moment of solidarity to say, here's the New York we want and we're entitled to and we're going to fight for. Thank you for bringing it up.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Diana, we are always so glad to see you doing big things. And the Upper West Side is not my neighborhood, but I do feel safe and calm knowing that you are protecting us there with your rabbinic presence. I will not use this occasion to reopen a debate from last week, even though you said the words Rafua Schlema, which calls to mind a certain Debbie Friedman song. But we will save the Debbie Friedman conversation for another day. I just want our listeners to know that we have been hearing from you. We know that you have a lot of opinions about Debbie Friedman and Misha Berach. And stay tuned. There will be future conversations.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

The Debbie Friedman Showdown.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

The Debbie Friedman Showdown. But for now, Diana, thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

But that wasn't the only thing you did this week, Diana.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

As

Diana makes challah

SPEAKER_00 4:34

it turns out, I'm full of Jewish behaviors. I can't wait to do more. I'm learning all the time. So something interesting happened to me this week, which was a magical person named Juliana came to my house and taught me how to make hala. And she is a listener. So, Juliana, I am shouting you out if you're listening. She is listening and she's listening while she bakes hala. Exactly. She mentioned that.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

I love that. Every Friday morning, we love her.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

She's a listener and she heard about my journey of leaving the congregational rabbinant and starting this new path of a Jewish home life that I'm building and expanding in new ways. She was like, I can help you with this. And in fact, she could. So she came over with a bag of all the pre-measured ingredients. And that's what she brought with her physically. But what she really brought with her is this sense of calm. I find the kitchen a very nerve-wracking place. I'm like, what do I do in here? And a sense of sort of comfort with Judaism and familiarity with making hala and how to do it. She really enabled me. And hala is a process. Obviously, you have to make the dough, you let it rise overnight. And so then we made the dough. I put it in my fridge. And the next night, my mom came over and we actually braided the halote together. And she took two home with her, and I took two for myself. And now I have a new skill. I can make hala. And it's a mitzvah that I'm excited to take on. I'm gonna try to do it consistently.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

I have a lot of questions, Diana. First of all, this is incredible news. I'm so happy for you. I love to make hala. It is, I think, the best thing that you as an individual can do to get in the Shabbos spirit, and then your whole house smells like it, and your whole house is in the Shabbos spirit. Here are my questions. You can choose which to answer. Whose recipe did you use? Was it Juliana's recipe? Was it from a cookbook? Was it from a particular person, ancestor, a matriarch? How did it taste? Would you make any adjustments? When you braided the jala, did you put any toppings? What did you think of it? Okay, let's get into this. Such a journalist. A journalist and a jala baker, so I can go forever on this one.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

She's like, show, don't tell. The recipe was from a text message, which was from her mind. She did mention growing up making hala and that that was familiar to her. I don't, I think it's her recipe, and here's how she does it. And we followed it. I did not put any toppings in. This is so personal, it's hard to say in the podcast, but actually say it. I prefer raisin hala. I know.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Raisin hala is very popular in my family. I it's not for me, but it's very popular. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

I think that's okay. That's not like saying you don't like Debbie Friedman. I mean, that's like a that's an accepted take on this show. You can like it.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Is it like the cinnamon raisin bagel of Hala? It's the same category because I also obviously love cinnamon raisin bagels because raisin is one of my love languages.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

It's because you're like sweet. I think it's because you're like a sweet person.

SPEAKER_00 7:25

Yeah, this makes sense. Thank you. So I didn't add any toppings because I feel like that's next level. You know, like I'm not at 102.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Also, I do feel like you are kind of a purist in many ways. And I could see you being like, sprinkles don't belong in hala. Like, or like you want to make the real thing. Hard disagree. Sprinkles belong.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

No, I mean, like right now, where she is in her journey.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

I love that we're analyzing my personality based on my hala. Okay, it's getting deep. How did it taste? It tasted really good. So I like to put the kosher salt on top. So I would say, with the salt, just absolutely delicious. My husband approved, my mom approved. We're off to the races. And when my girls come home from camp, to be honest, they are not gonna believe this. They're gonna be like, no, you didn't do that. You don't know that. They're not gonna recognize their mom.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, exactly. I want to talk a lot more about Juliana, who I know, but I first want to give you my hottest take ever, which is that kosher salt. I'm a pretty easy-going person. I do believe that if you are not a friend of the Jews, kosher salt does not belong in your kitchen. And I say this because it's one of those things that everyone uses and no one like talks about it's koshering salt, right? There are a lot of people in the food world whose views and opinions I just like wish I knew less about. And here they are going for their kosher salt. And I'm like, don't use that. Put that down. That's ours. Use your own salt. You don't get to use our salt. Such a good take.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Here's a question that I have wondered, and I definitely have Googled it and just don't remember, but like, why is it called kosher salt?

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Oh, okay. When I was a tablet, I worked on this project, The 100 Most Jewish Foods, a highly debatable list. And one of the things was kosher salt. Shira Tolushkin wrote this great essay for the book about the process of koshering meat. A big thing of it was like packing it with salt to absorb a lot of the stuff. And so it was initially called koshering salt because of that process of like salting the meat. Um, and then it just became something that like it turned out was better, like the way the crystals, whatever. It was a pre-malden era. So everything was different. Mine from being called koshering salt to kosher salt. And it's just funny to be on, maybe actually I don't want them to stop using it. Maybe I just like to enjoy the fact that in these videos they're like, now you use like a pinch of kosher salt. And I'm like, Yeah, you did. You really can't use pinch kosher. Kosher salt. That's our salt.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

You need us. You could say we're the foundational ingredient.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

So the way I met Juliana is the best thing ever, which is that we dated roommates. And I dated Ben Cohen and she dated Ruben Cohen, and they live together. And so the reason they live together was that a third friend sort of like set them up because they were like, Oh, Ben Cohen, Ruben Cohen need both need a roommate at the same time. They should live together on Mott Street. No relation, I take it. No relation, no, just through the Kohanim connection, of course. They did the symbol all the time, every time we walked into their apartment. So, anyways, Ben was moving in with me when she started dating Ruben, but anyway, we sort of crossed paths a little bit. And I was like, I like this girl. And then, you know, fast forward, we live blocks away from each other on the upper west side. We all have Cohen children with like old lady names, and they are the best. They play mahjong together. And the thing I love about Juliana is that she is so expansive in her Jewish identity. Like she says over for Shabbat. Actually, she wrote a whole newsletter about this. They bless their kids on Shabbat. And I love it. And I'm always like, Edith, go get a blessing from them. And it's like never a house or a table where you feel uncomfortable that you like don't do something yourself. She shows you how to do it. And it really is like the type of Jew we should all try to be, which is like, oh, you want to learn how to make hala? I'm gonna come over to your house with the ingredients, with a sack of flour, it sounds like, and help you do it. And I think for me, it's like such an inspiration. And we have to shout out her mom, Ilana, who lives in Arizona, and she is like the hub of all of this. I did an event in Arizona once, and she was like, Come over for dinner. I'm feeding you. And so, like, I just love this, I love this idea that this is just like a family of warm Jewish vibes, hospitality, the whole thing. It's not surprising at all that you text me being like, Juliana just came over and helped me make hala.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

The word for me that comes to mind when I think of her is is chesed. Just this like warmth and generosity and and kindness about sharing our sacred practices. So it was a win for me. I hope I can keep going with it. And I think Esther on a previous episode said, like, when you take on a new practice, her best advice is like baby steps. So it's one week at a time. This week I made hala. I hope I can next week also.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

My advice, Diana, is the next time you make hala, make maybe a slightly bigger recipe, put one in your freezer, and then it's always better to have a homemade hala waiting to go. Not that that is such a hot take or anything, but I it's I like to do that when I make hala. I'm certainly not able to do it every week. Juliana sounds amazing. I'm sorry I don't know her. Hello, Juliana. You will soon. She'll she's actually at your door right now. She took the train to DC this morning. I'm gonna also give a shout out to my mother as I do many weeks on this show, because I grew up with her making cala every week, and it was such a part of our lives, and something that my twin sister and I both do a lot of as well. My twin sister does it much more than I do, even. She lived in New Orleans for the last several years and would make calla and sell it, which I am not doing. But the recipe that I look at when I cook, it's a physical recipe. In 2016, I was doing my first college internship at the Toledo Blade, a newspaper in Ohio. This is my first time living like in an apartment with a kitchen and not in a dorm. And my mom made a cookbook for me and my sister who was doing the same. And it's in a binder. She printed it out. The first few pages are her notes like, here's what you should have if you want to have a fully stocked kitchen. Oh, that's amazing. Here's what you should keep in the pantry, here are different kinds of grains and oils, and then some basics like, okay, you want to roast vegetables, here's how long to cook each vegetable. If you want to have a healthy snack, you should get this instead of that. And she put all of the recipes that we grew up eating. And she didn't create all of the recipes, but she compiled them. And so the hala recipe. She curated in there. She curated for sure. And I have this cookbook in a white three-ring binder. And every time I make hala, I go and get it from my bookshelf and open it to the same page. And probably at some point I will commit the recipe to memory, as she certainly did long ago. But I love using that and thinking about the care that she put into it. And now it lives as a Google Doc. She has been adding to it over the years. Oh, that's really smart. Yeah, whenever she makes a recipe that goes over well with the family or with friends, she puts it in there. And she writes whoever liked it the most.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

So, or whoever makes it. She has one for my brother whose name is Cole, and she'll write like Cole's guacamole, uh, as if he invented the guacamole recipe, but he just loves it and likes to make it. That's so cute. That's amazing, and that's where my hollow recipe lives.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Today is

Stephanie on first birthdays and motherhood

SPEAKER_02 13:52

my daughter Sadie's first birthday, and last Monday was my daughter Edith's fifth birthday. And they are eight days apart. They are four years and eight days apart. And I've just been feeling quite emotional about it. I feel like I'm usually kind of like cynical, whatever, ironic. I do feel feelings sometimes, and I feel them a lot around my children. It's just so crazy to me that like last night we were sitting here, I was like talking to her, I was like, you weren't here a year ago. I feel very lucky. Sadie was up early this morning and I brought her in to wake Edith up for camp. And Sadie just sort of like climbed on top of her. And I just was thinking, I was like, oh, a year ago you became a big sister. That's a really big deal for all of us. And I love that we are in this like birthday season. And I'm sure at one point it'll be like, no, I want my own party. And like, it's funny because I had maybe it's not funny, I had a scheduled C-section and at 37 weeks for Sadie, and there came time to schedule it. And I was like, okay, as far out as like medically advisable, could we get them to different weeks, calendar weeks? So they're the 20th and 20th. They will never be in the same week. And then we get to celebrate both of them and they both feel special. I kind of love it because sort of in the way like the high holiday is just like it's jam-packed, right? It's like bam, bam, bam. This is like the season. I feel like this for me is this beautiful celebration of like our family and our growth. My birthday is September 22nd. It's always right at smack and high holidays. And I love that. Talk about like school supply season. To me, it's like fresh beginning, new year. Like I really identify, it's like that real Virgo energy. But the thing I did realize was my daughter's on like a bus camp, a day camp, but she takes a bus there. And so that's like a big step for us. It's a bus camp. No, it's a thing, it's a it's like a mini step. But they sent a video of them singing happy birthday to her in their little bunk. But I just had this moment of like, oh my God, she's gonna have a camp birthday. Like, I'm not gonna be with her on her birthday. And so, like, I feel like this funny feeling of how magical this moment is. And I'm like, oh my god, she's gonna be spending it with like her camp friends forever. And I don't know, I don't know. I'm feeling feelings. That's all I'll say.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

I want to say first, Stephanie, okay, you are like edgy and cool and fun. I don't think of you as a cynic. You're softy. So, just for the record, that's your reputation to me, and I love hearing you talk about your daughters. One of my best friends always texts my mom on my birthday. And so happy birthday to you for birthing your daughter one year ago today. Also fellow Virgo, just putting that out there. I love that. I could tell um Virgo energy.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

I knew you were both Virgos because I'm a Taurus, which is a great match, and it was so obvious to me. What's this? So we have to find out. It's been obvious from the beginning. Okay, sorry, Gabby. Continue.

unknown 16:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

We're gonna have to explore a lot there as well. I did not have a camp birthday, but I looked at friends who did, and I was like, how fun to be with all of your friends. And you get to do whatever you want, and you're like staying up later than you would otherwise and having such a celebration, and maybe you get less presents, but you get to be with all of your friends. And then thinking about these things from the parents' side, like that never would have crossed my mind that someone's parent might have been having feelings about not being with their kid on their birthday.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Well, it's so funny because my Instagram feed is all visiting day content, and I don't know if it's like that people I know are suddenly sending their kids to camp or like there's a spike in content about it, but these videos from the parents' perspectives, and it's very cute, but it's like everyone is now filming the running of the moms. The dads are filming the first hug, and I'm like, I get it. I put a lot of stuff online. That feels sacred.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Okay, wait. I have to say something about that. Well, it's two things. One is I literally got a WhatsApp last night from a friend that said, Did you do the running of the moms? Full blank, like I had no idea what she was talking about. And this is what she explained to me. Apparently, there's like a parental running situation. It was at my camp, yeah. And then there's like an embrace.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

They let them out of the rec hall altogether and then the moms go. I've seen it referred to as the running of the Jews, which I do not like. No, no. As a people, we don't need to be running. Let's like, let's stay put for just a little bit. The parents would be like penned into the rec hall, and then at 9 a.m. they would open the doors. And I think the idea was that no one was seeing their kid earlier than others. I don't know. It's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

I have no comment on that, but what I'll just say in general is what I don't like are Instagram tailored personal moments with your child. That seems like a lot for me, but I do get the whole idea of missing your child. Can't wait to just like squeeze them and hug them. I have a question for you, Steph, though, in thinking about your children's birthdays and sort of like your Jewish journey. One is a big age, right? Like when your kid hits one, it is a very big moment. And I'm wondering if it makes you think Jewishly, what do I want for these kids? And what do you want for them in terms of their Judaism at this point?

SPEAKER_02 18:21

I have been so struck by the joy that is Jewish life for children, the unencumbered way that they engage with Judaism. There's no baggage. And my daughter Edith just finished the JCC preschool, one of my favorite places in the world. And every Friday there was a hollow in her cubby. And she came home and she was like, let's light the candles. Mom, light the candles. And she did her little cute little hand motion. And she just was so happy about it. And there was always the Shabbat family. And like there was a way in which Judaism was woven into her life. Like my theory is that you're never more religiously literate than when you're in preschool, because you're in the basement of a church or a synagogue, like we were in these sort of parochial environments that actually make you feel good about your religious life. I remember talking about this on unorthodox when it happened. I took Edith to a sprout service at Road F, one of the congregations around here. And I was like, it's Yom Kippur. I'm gonna put you in your scritchiest heights, I'm gonna put you in a dress, I'm gonna put you in Mary Jane's. Yes. And we're gonna just figure it out. And we walked into the basement and it was music. It was magic. It was, yes, the most holy, serious day of the year, but these kids were having such a good time. And I just I felt this sense of, oh, I am looking at Jewish life with new eyes. It doesn't have to be weighted by anything like the Hebrew school I went to, I mean, shout out to Temple Israel, an amazing place. Our cantor, Cantor Frieder, was actually the cantor in keeping the faith. He played a cantor in a movie. So that was a really big deal for us. But nothing you experienced has any bearing on these kids. And they don't know why there are guards outside of their temples. They don't know that it's unusual to go through a metal detector at the JCC every morning for school. It's just what they do. And so I just feel like there's this beautiful innocence. This is what I want for her. Sadie and I are starting these like Friday classes at Rodef. It's called learning together. I love the idea that we're gonna get another pair of like glitter candlesticks in my house. There's just a creative energy and an excitement and DIY mentality that these kids have about their Jewish life. And it's like, I made my holo cover. And like we kind of lose that as adults. And so what I've tried to remember and tried to welcome into my life is that sort of spirit of like excitement and awe at all of these Jewish rituals and being like, yeah, we should all be making our holo covers, right? Why not have a sense of ownership and creativity with what it is that we're doing with our Jewish lives? So that is my TED talk about how having children open my eyes to a new kind of Jewish identity. Maybe I don't need to feel the baggage all the time, right? It's really hard not to in this moment where right outside that very synagogue, something scary happened this week. We also have to remember all of the beautiful, bright moments, and especially to remember to cultivate those for others, for especially the littlest people in our lives, but for all of our ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Well, maybe my

Gabby's secondhand Shabbat find + "Reverse bageling"

SPEAKER_01 21:02

adult version of that kind of excitement of the creativity is over the weekend I went to the farmer's market in DC, and there's this little vintage market at the start before you get to all of the fruit and vegetables and whatnot. And normally I am really bad at a vintage store. I am not good at finding the gems, I get stressed out, so I just don't usually look. I was with a friend who enjoys looking at secondhand things, and we went to this table, and they had a beautiful kiddish set with a big kiddish cup and six of the little ones that you pour the wine into. And they seemed nice. I don't know what the history is or what they're made of, but I was really excited. I did a little haggling. I got the price lower. I got all seven of these items for $30. Wow. And the woman who worked at the vintage shop or at this little stand clearly was not Jewish. And she said to me when I was paying, she said, Oh, this is so nice. Are you gonna use it for something or are you just gonna display it? And all I said, To her, it was like, I'm gonna use these on Friday nights. I didn't need to get into the whole thing. But it was, it was so serendipitous. Like I wasn't on a big quest to find my new kiddish shed. It found you. It found me, and now I'm so excited to use it on Shabbat.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

It's not reverse bagel, but what you're describing is something I'm very familiar with, which is you basically don't out yourself as Jewish. You know the person doesn't understand. And there's a certain like code switching element where you're just like, I'm not gonna explain to you what a kiddish cups are. Like, I'm not gonna explain to you Shabbat.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

There's also the antiquing angle, which is if she knew that this had a ritual importance, the value of those things would go way up.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Right, she would have charged more money if she knew they were real and not just these tiny little like silver cups that are impractical. But you're totally right, Diana. It's like that quick split-second decision. If you're in an Uber, something I've experienced, I'm sure you guys have as well. If I'm in an Uber and whether I'm just tired or perhaps getting weird vibes from the driver and they're trying to make small talk, and someone has said to me before, what do you do for work? And I say, I'm I'm a journalist. And sometimes I say I write for a Jewish publication, and sometimes I just don't, I don't feel like getting into it. It's not like I necessarily think they're an anti-Semite, it's just I don't need to sort of explain myself to people all the time.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

You don't need to say the phrase Jewish insider to them.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

I I am a Jewish insider. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

I mean, Gabby, you don't know how close to home you're hitting. There are so many times that like I'm meeting people that I'm just not gonna tell them what I do. If you're a rabbi and someone asks, what are like your hedges? I'm a faith leader. So in rabbinical school, everyone has an alternative fake job that they say. Yeah, this is like the CIA. This is, and it's hilarious. And I think a lot of it is for social reasons when you're young or whatever. People would be out at a bar and not wanting to be like rabbi, wah wah. It's not perhaps the most fun role. It's like it's giving narc. But a lot of times I think people say teacher or something like that because no one wants to lie, but also you don't necessarily want to open that door all the time for lots of different reasons. And you're right, Gabby, it's not just anti-Semitism at all. It's just there's a cultural fluency there. I feel like I'm often editing out every other word I say when I'm talking to a non-Jewish person. I'm like, I can't say that, I can't say this, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Well, there's like the code switching and then the protective shielding, which I, as someone who, yes, for many years worked in a Jewish publication, then founded one. I totally get that. It's like, oh, you're journalists, what do you write about? It's both, right? It's not wanting to get into it and then feeling like you can't get into it. And I feel like that all the time in a taxi or like when you're in a place where your conversations are audible, like on the subway, which it's like everything I say is so Jewish. I cannot help it. It's interesting to become conscious of it because I'm like, I don't think if you were really active in your church, you'd think about what it sounds like if you're like talking about your church on the subway or like talking about your church in public. What if it is like keeping the sanctity of what you do just for certain people? And then one of it is like a protective crouch of I don't want anyone to hear me saying these words. Because that to me is like the really troubling thing in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I try not to be someone who's like, okay, I'm not gonna talk about Israel because I don't want people to hear me talking about Israel in case they get angry. I know people who, if they're on the subway or having dinner in a certain place, they're like, okay, I'm gonna keep my views on Israel quiet in case someone hears and is unhappy. I don't want to do that. For me, it's more of a self-protective thing of I'm trying to just protect my sanity. You're like, I'm just trying to unwind. Yeah, so well, let me just give you an example that I just thought of, which was two years ago in 2024. I was in Chicago covering the Democratic National Convention, and I just had this memory. I was in an Uber there, going to some event, and lots of people are in town for this big political conference. So my Uber driver asks me what I'm there for, and I tell him that I write for a Jewish outlet, and he says, Wow. He says, I have to tell you something. He tells me that he has had a vision about where the hostages are hidden. This was in August of 24, so a lot of hostages were still in Gaza. And he tells me that he really wants to follow up with me so that he can tell me where the hostages are and then I can get them out. And then I made the mistake of giving him my business card. No. Luckily, he never emailed me. Thank God. But after that, I just felt I don't need some random person to tell me their prophecies. Our days are short, we don't have enough time. It's amazing to be Jewish and also challenging and challenging to do the work that we do. And I don't need to be the receptacle of everyone's thoughts about Israel and the Jewish people simply by virtue of what my job is.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I'm sure a lot of our listeners have moments like this, and I'm curious. I invite all of them to write in high at goldenguide.com to tell us if this happens. But I, having sent my child to the JCC and done a lot of events there, I'm regularly running late. And I'm not ashamed to say that I take an Uber not that many blocks to get there. But in Uber, I put Amsterdam Alehouse, which is across the street, and it's the exact same way to go. And I don't know why I do it. And I do a lot of events at synagogues, and I always say like 92nd and 5th for the Jewish Museum if I'm in a taxi. I don't even know that I think about doing it. I always say it's like 60th and fifth, say the cross streets to get myself there. It feels private in this weird way.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Well, I think the question becomes like, are we editing ourselves out of a conversation? Are we responding to something that's real and basically making like a safety precaution? Or are we minimizing our own voice and presence in public society? And the truth is, is probably both at different times.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

I think we should keep exploring this and how it makes us feel. That's not wrong though, right? Like, yeah, some of it is real and some of it is in our heads and things that we're doing to make ourselves feel better. And as Diana says, it better for us. Is it worse for us? Are we assuming the worst in people by putting in a different address on Uber? I've been there for sure. I can't explain the times when I do that versus the times when I don't. I have done both for the same location on different occasions to keep thinking and talking about what it is to be Jewish these days.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

And by the way, non-Jews go to all these places. It's not just Jews at the JCC. There are people, it's like, it's funny. I'm curious, a non-Jewish probably wouldn't even think twice about all these things that we're thinking of. People go to the Jewish museum all the time. Just I wonder how much of it is learned. I think there's a lot here.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't really chasing you. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like the way we are is based on our historical reality and our evolving presence. So, yes, it sounds like a little bit overly protective, not to list, for example, just the simple places you're going to a driver. But on the other hand, that sort of behavior is well-earned.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

All right, a lot to discuss, a lot to explore. And just after the break, we'll be back with an Ask Golda question from one of our listeners. Last week on Golda Girls, you heard us talk about the Simcha Torah Challenge. And now you can sign up to be a part of it. The Simcha Torah Challenge is your weekly reminder that ancient Jewish texts are surprisingly good at modern life. If you haven't yet joined the world's oldest book club and the community of tens of thousands, sign up free at Simcha Torah Challenge.org slash Golda. That's Simcha Torah Challenge.org slash Golda. Welcome to the club.

Ask GOLDA: Building a Shabbat practice

SPEAKER_02 29:04

All right, it's time for Ask Golda where we tackle a question from a listener. Last week's question came from my friend Irene, and I just want you to know that she loved the response. Yeah, I was curious. She thought it was very, very helpful and funny. And then our other bestie cat texted us to say that Jewish adjacent, which was a term that came up, is a great term. And I think that's right, Jewish adjacent.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yes, I think it's real and it's growing, and we need to just name it Jewish adjacent. We love all of our Jewish adjacent friends out there.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Stay close. We need you. Okay, so this letter this week comes from Rachel in DC, and she writes, It has been deeply affirming to hear Diana's excitement and worry about doing Shabbat at home after so many years leading services in her congregation. My family is also going through a big change, and I could use your advice. I grew up Jewish in Texas, where the only Jews I know were my own family. And our Shabbat dinners were held at our favorite Chinese or Mexican restaurant. I now live in the DC area around so many more Jewish families, and our girls go to the local JCC, which they love, and we have made some wonderful friends and community here. Now my husband is in the process of converting, and I want to start doing Shabbat with our family every week. Currently, we do Shabbat ice cream after we pick them up from the JCC on Friday afternoons, which we love, and we want to do more. This is all a long-winded way of saying that I'm having some Jew posture syndrome about getting our weekly Shabbat practice started. We are aiming for progress over perfection, but I am feeling a lot of nerves about doing Shabbat right, right in quotes, and would love to enlist the wisdom of the Golda Girls. Rachel and DC, you came to the right place.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

We are here for you. I love this question. Thank you for recognizing yourself in my journey. I think we're sharing things together. I would say two things. One is the best way to learn Jewish behaviors and to learn about holiday practices, Shabbat celebrations is through community. So if you can get yourself invited to like two Shabbat dinners, you will feel immeasurably more empowered than if you watch YouTube videos and if you read books about it. Both of which you can do, by the way, is resources. But I like learning through doing and through other people. And then you see actually they have their way and it's not perfect and it's really not that hard. So I would say, first step, use that JCC community and just put it out there and be like, oh, any chance we could come for Shabbat sometime? I would love that. Second thing, I appreciate your drive to get it quote right, but I would say focus on parts of it as you go and not the whole thing. To me, the beginning is the blessings. Learn how to say the blessings correctly, learn how to say them at all. And once you can do that, everything else will sort of flow from there.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

I want to add to Diana's comments. I think she's right. Go to another Shabbat, you'll see how another family does it and see that it might actually be easier than you think when you're just seeing it at someone's home rather than at a JCC or a synagogue where there might be more production attached to it. At the same time, what I remember from my family's Shabbats growing up is doing it every week in our dining room. And my siblings and I would get to sit in the big grown-up adult chairs in the dining room. And I don't remember how we said the blessings or any of the details. It was just being together as a family. And so I think trying to carve out that space for some consistency is a huge part of it. And the best part is your kids don't know the difference. If you say the blessing and you get it wrong, no one knows. No one cares. Maybe your husband who is converting and we welcome him to the Jewish people will be the one who has the best source of knowledge about the blessings because it's freshest for him. But in any case, you're all figuring it out together. There's no one who's gonna judge you if you say baruch instead of baruch. You're trying it out, you're starting this thing, and you don't have to be perfect the first time. And there is no perfect. For most Jews, there's always something more that you can do, but just because you're not doing it doesn't mean that it's bad or that you're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

I love that. I also want to say we went through a big Hamozi lemon minha orange phase. And honestly, I like it better that way. It's funny, this idea of a Jew posture syndrome, which is a phrase, Rachel, I have never heard that before, but I respect what you've done there. And there's also Jew Barrisman, which is Archie Goddessman from Jubalong. She sort of coined that phrase. And I just want to say we do this professionally, the three of us. We do Jewish life professionally in some capacity, both whether as a journalist reporting on the Jewish community, as a rabbi ministering, whatever the Jewish word for ministering is. Shepherding? Shepherding is very Jewy. Hello, Torah. So yes, so in whatever capacity, Gabby as a journalist reporting on Jewish issues, and Diana as an actual rabbi and me running Golda and doing all this Jewish culture stuff, I think all we've done is talk about how we are learning and growing. And I think that everyone is doing that, right? And so I want everyone to not feel that what they're doing isn't enough because as we've spent three months saying, like we're all in this together, right? This idea of Shabbat ice cream after being picked up from school, that is so special. That is the kind of thing that a kid will remember. I once was talking to someone, I was in college, and she's like, you know, every Friday night we order sushi and that we have like a sushi Shabbat in our dorms. And I was like, that's amazing. That sounds so fun. I feel like we don't have to be so dogmatic. The beauty of Judaism is there is so much flexibility. And I think that sushi Shabbat is a great tradition.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I'll add one more, one more thing, which is right, like all of these traditions, whatever they are, can be Shabbat as long as you recognize it as Shabbat. And I would encourage you to think about throwing in some blessings because I think it's nice and it's a good way to mark the week. Something else that I love doing and I think also works well with kids, depending on how old your kids are, is just to use it as a moment to reflect on the week and do highs and lows, things like that, and just look back and have it be a little bit of a different dinner or even afternoon ice cream than the rest of the week. To set it apart and make it special, which is really what Shabbat is and the role that it plays for the Jewish people.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I actually do believe that Shabbat has specific content to it. Oh, so we can't just do whatever we want, like I said. You can, but that's not Shabbat. That's a nice thing. It's a nice thing to get ice cream every Friday. That's lovely. But I'm I'm not sure in terms of sustaining the Jewish people, that's enough. And I just don't want to tell a lie. Even with sprinkles? Right. I just don't want to tell a lie to our listeners in order to make everyone happy, which I think is just a reflex in the liberal world, just to be like, but we love you and we're so excited. We are we do love you, we are so excited. That sort of thing comes from the best place. But I think that anything that gets you to enter Shabbat is great. You should do that. But I think that when you're talking about making Shabbat in a way that you hope means something to you and something to your children, we have thousands of years of practice with that. And our answer is hala, wine, candles. Those are our three foundational answers. Rest. So I would say when you're starting, like start with one of those answers and then like have fun with it. Iterate however you want, but those are the foundational structures of Shabbat. And sprinkles and sushi. And whatever you want. Sprinkles on the hala in my book.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Yes, sprinkles on the hala, sprinkling some prayers. We got this. Listen, I'm trying. I'd love to hear from our listeners. Tell us if there are things that you've done to step up your Shabbat game, anything that we could tell Rachel about, do in our own lives. And I think Rachel in DC, Juliana might also be showing up at your house with some hala as well. She probably will. Yes. And please continue to send us your Ask Golda questions to hi at Goldeguy.com. We love getting the chance to answer them and see what's going on in all of your lives.

Good for the Jews

SPEAKER_02 36:35

All right. It's time for Good for the Jews, the part of the show where we all come with something that we've seen or gotten into that is definitively good for the Jews. More important than ever in an era that feels like it is not always good for the Jews. It is so important to dig down and find those things that we are loving. My Good for the Jews is, I'm gonna say the jam ban fish. I will caveat this with I am not like a fish person, not no judgment, like no nothing. I just, it's not my universe. But I did get a bunch of texts last night from my friend Mark Tracy, who is at the show, and he goes to all of them. He sent me a video of fish on stage at our what, six or seven of the concert, who knows, playing a Venu Malcano. And then he sent me a picture of our other friend Akiva wearing a shirt that said fish in Hebrew. And I don't know much about this, but I do feel like there is this affinity for the Jews and the band Fish. And I'm like, you know what? A concert where the band is playing a Venu Malcano, and everyone in the video is just like cheering, whether you know what it is or not. I'm like, we need more of that. Good for the Jews. Right. At Madison Square Garden.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yep, in the center of New York City. Fish is very good for the Jews, yes. I'll go next. So my good for the Jews is the Jewish holiday of Tuba'av, which we are celebrating today as we record. Tubaav is perhaps not the most major Jewish holiday, not the most popular, but it's a simple holiday about love. So my spiritual challenge to our listeners is maybe tell a Jewish person that you love them today and take a moment to celebrate Tuba'av.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

So, okay, how do you feel, Diana? About I've heard Tuba'ov is oh, it's the Jewish Valentine's Day. How do you feel about that designation?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Why do you ask me questions? You know the answer to. Do I like when people call Purim Jewish Halloween? No, I don't. Okay. We know, we know. I don't like these things. I I think often we are the originator of things, and then other people take them and do them in other ways, which is Yeah, St. Valentine. But I just like to call things their names, and this is called tuba of.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

It's like in my Big Fat Greek wedding when the dad says, like, give me a word, any word, and I'll show you the root of the word is Greek. Like everything is actually Jewish.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Well, most things are. I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

What I think is good for the Jews this week is the sport of baseball. And I'm not just saying this because the Yankees are my boyfriend's favorite sports team, and I'm trying to impress him. We're gonna clip that for social. Fantastic. He's not on social media.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

We love the Yankees. The official team of the Golden Girls. Just kidding. Summets.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

I just got a Yankees hat, my very first one, that has those souvenir helmets you can get with frozen yogurt.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

A Yankees frozen yogurt cup with the Yankees logo on it, and then ice cream with sprinkles on top. It's sort of meta. It's a great hat. It's getting a lot of compliments. Wait, it's on a baseball hat? Yeah, it's on a baseball hat.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

It's a baseball hat with the ice cream cup hat on it. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Which is where the Yankees logo is. It's very cute, I promise you. I saw it on an Instagram ad.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

You're targeted for dating a Yankees fan.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Your algorithm is like. The algorithm knows all. I'm just surprised it didn't recommend a Yankees hat in Hebrew, but I have not seen that one yet. The reason that I think baseball is good for the Jews is it's a great summer activity. And I went to a Baltimore Orioles game the other night. I had never been to Camden Yards. It was a ton of fun. At the point in the game where on the Jumbotron they list all of the groups that are there, one of the ones that was there was like the Baltimore Hebrew Congregation Men's Club had their summer outing to an Orioles game, which I loved. And I have been on many such outings with Jewish groups, to baseball games in Florida, to the Marlins, to DC, actually, to the Nationals with Camp Roman, to many minor league games as well that I have visited on various camp or youth group trips. And I just think baseball games, fun for the family, good way to be outside, not expensive. A ton of ballparks have kosher food, which is a lot of fun. I guess baseball, like good for anyone in the summer, and I think also good for the Jews. Show up, go with your Jewish group, support, buy the kosher sausage. Think about the fact that it's kind of amazing that almost all hot dogs in this country are made of beef. There's a good story there. And enjoy the summer activities while we get to be outside.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Do you feel like Hebrew National is responsible for like a broader shift towards positive Jewish sentiment? Like, like I feel like you could trace something about Jewish America through Hebrew National hot dogs because they're better. Like that's what it is. They're Jewish and they're better.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

I have to give a shout out here to one of my best friends named Erin, who has a deep obsession with the history of kosher food and like particularly the fact that Hebrew National is everywhere. She thinks it is an amazing story, and she's gonna be like very glad to hear this on the air. I think she, I don't know the story of how Hebrew National became everywhere. Sounds like she's gonna come on the show and tell us. But even if you're not going to the kosher food stand, the fact that if you're like a kosher style Jew, you can just go and get your hot dog and enjoy with the rest of the people at the baseball game. And baseball's for everyone, and that includes the Jews. Jay, did you hear that? She likes baseball.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Go Yankees! Did you did I say that right? Golda Girls is a production of Golda Media. The show is hosted by me, Stephanie Butnick with Gabby Deutsch, Diana First Go, and the hopefully silent Esther Shahebar. Until next week when she'll be back in full force. Ariel Shapiro is our executive producer, and we are edited by the fabulous team at Poldu. Get more Golda and subscribe to our newsletter. Find out about all of our events at Goldaguide.com. Follow us on Instagram at Goldaguide. In the show notes, you can find links to sign up for Diana's newsletter Modern Jewess and Gabby's Substack and to get Esther's novel, Sister of Fortune, everything you might need to find, to buy, to support in those show notes. Send us your Ask Golda questions at high at Goldaguide.com. And as always, if you leave us a review and send us a screenshot at high at Goldeguide.com, we will send you a Golda sticker. I'm a little bit backlogged on my mailing, but I will get to it, I promise. I'm actually, to be honest, my the bottleneck is that I can't figure out what stamps should go on these letters. We don't know. And so I'm just trying to find like the right thematic one. So once I figure that out, you will receive your stickers. As always, thanks for listening and stay golden. That's a golda podcast.